Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2015 January 13

2443:. Note that this blogger chooses greater than 7 minutes as his criterion. That was also my original idea, as I said above. So if people think that "long pop songs" is too vague, then the category could be called "pop songs over seven minutes long" or "pop songs longer than seven minutes". One could make that "classic/notable/influential pop songs over seven minutes", but I guess that wouldn't fly, because those terms are subjective. So one can have as the defining quality being over seven minutes long. (That would eliminate one or two songs I placed in the current category, since they are between 6 and 7 minutes long.) 1255:(written as a reply to Carlossuarez46 below) The difference is that in most countries drug use is illegal. We can certainly list (with references), convictions for drug use. Otherwise, it is an accusation. Also, check the "criteria" at the top of the category page. Finally, it is completely immaterial to Knowledge (XXG) and its readers whether someone is alleged to have used drugs. Nearly every drug user for which the drug use is notable will either be in 2199:, we can't have this category. While Short film begins "No consensus exists as to where that boundary is drawn..." it then goes on, paradoxically, to draw some pretty clear boundaries. One of the practices we follow here is to ask that a main article exist, or could be created, before starting a category. Perhaps that's where attention could be focused in the event this Cfd passes... in writing a referenced main article? 1378:- Extremely poorly defined. I'm taking paracetamol and ibuprofen for a leg issue right now; so I'd fit in this category. It also suggests that all people in it are still taking drugs (bad or good ones), which is equally unhelpful. Skyerise's nomination statement is pretty much spot on. Practically every single vaguely modern biography on this site would be eligible for this category... which is ridiculous. If someone is 2689:

Western society knows that pop songs are generally about four minutes long. I explained this in the category description. So what "long" means is significantly longer than four minutes. To me, that means longer than five minutes. The reason I don't think that greater than seven minutes should be the requirement is that there are some songs just under seven minutes which I believe belong in this category.

1675:. Anyway, that aside, we need to be very careful about whether a fictional film that is set in a given country can accurately be said to be "about" a country. In virtually all cases it is not, and we should default to the well-established "Films set in foo," I believe. (I'll be adding some subcats to this nom next -- treating the UK example as a test case for all Films about fooian country cats. Thanks. 3105:. "AR platform" is reasonably clear within the context of firearms, but that context is currently missing. I'd suggest "AR-platform firearms" as a better alternative. "AR-type firearms" is a less precise alternative because many articles discuss rifles based on AR-10 or AR-15 actions but with significant differences. That said, "AR-type" might be misleading but probably still be acceptable. 2379:"All around the World", which I didn't know about. It's that easy. My idea about this category is that this is about the original mix and release. Several of the entries I included in this category are album tracks. Whether the song is on an A-side or a B-side or an album doesn't matter. If you think that how the category describes itself is imprecise, you can modify that description. – 1979:

encyclopedic to have such a category. The category is unlikely to lead to junk being added to it, since if a "long song" is not noteworthy, it is unlikely to have its own article, and hence cannot be added to the category. Certainly other names for this category should be considered, but I thought that "Long pop songs" is Wikipedian in its simplicity and straightforwardness.

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and Films set in Foo are often subcategories of Foo in fiction and/or Cinema of Foo, I think that documentaries about Foo should also be the subcategory Works about Foo. But should Documentaries about Foo also be in both the categories Films shot in Foo and Films set in Foo? (eg Canada, Japan have Works, Italy has Set & Works, DRC has Shot & Works)

1419:-- Activists belong in a spoecial category. For BLP, there is a defamation issue, unless convicted. For those convicted of illegal drug use, we might have a specific category/ies. However, unfotunately, the use of illegal drugs is far too common for this to be a useful category, quite apart from the issue of verification. 2594:. They are not great for gathering more subjective material. The topic of "long pop songs" needs more elaboration than a barebones category allows: the material is much more suited to an article or gathered in a list (as I suggested above) where we can give context of the songs and a history of recorded song lengths. See 2972:

I would certainly be okay with a category of "airplanes based on the 747 airframe". The parts between AR-platform rifles are often so interchangeable (in many cases identical) that people can mix and match them, and often do. I feel that it is therefore perfectly reasonable to group them together.

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What pop music is is Western music with classical and jazz excluded. The 7 minutes length is not arbitrary. It occurs to anyone with a modicum of familiarity with pop music. What we are running into here is the problem with the Knowledge (XXG) basic rules. Not only don't editors need to be recognized

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is not a documentary, and is already in the category Films set in London (I m happy to move the four films involved). But how many categories should “Documentary films about Foo” be in? At present they are in one or more of Films set in Foo, Films shot in Foo and Works about Foo. As Films shot in Foo

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Of course I am being subjective in that I am only adding songs by bands I am familiar with and like. But anybody can add songs to this category by bands that I have never heard of. As for bands releasing songs in varying lengths, I think it is pretty clear that there is usually a "canonical" version

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entirely arbitrary and subjective as there is no single definition of long, what's long in one circumstance may be unexceptional in another. The only time I recall coming across this is when the UK Guardian newspaper (music blog I think) had a weekly reader survey to compile a list, of (on one week)

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Only exceptional songs get their own articles, as opposed to being mentioned in the article about the album which they are a track in, so I am not sure that this category gives rise to an unwieldy list of songs. If a song has its own article and is significantly longer than four minutes, why not add

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If you truly think the definition of what constitutes a "long pop song" is not very subjective, then I can only refer to the various opinions above (which I broadly agree with). It's the sheer number of borderline cases you would get that makes it unworkable: 5-6:00 mins? 6:30 mins? 6:50 mins? 7:00

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The HK416 may be "based on the AR-15 platform", but we don't usually categorize things (e.g. vehicles, aircraft) by what they are based on - it's too imprecise/subjective/unclear to work as a general categorization scheme. Which aspects of a particular firearm were derived from other firearms can

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that a documentary film about a country isn't actually shot in it, it's highly unlikely. And I can't see any way a doc film about a country can't be said to have that country as its setting. That's certainly the logic I've been following, when I added those parent categories (as I suspectr I did).

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To DexDor, it's a bit like grouping "V6 cars" or "electric vehicles". The AR platform is a set of technologies first developed in the late 1950s. The main patents have expired. Various companies and designers have both copied the original rifles and created notable variations. It definitely makes

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I looked at the Knowledge (XXG) policy page you linked to and I didn't see anything that indicates that "Long pop songs" is a bad category. I don't see anything subjective about this category at all. "Pop songs" is a well established category. I think that everyone who is culturally literate in a

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I hope that this is a satisfactory response to the objections that have been made. As I said, when one looks at the history of pop music, long pop songs (songs over 7 minutes long, to be precise) stand out as a class of their own, so Knowledge (XXG) should recognize that by having a corresponding

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films about fooian geographical region, I suppose I bear some blame. To that, I believe a doc film "about" a country is especially useful for films that are about country x that are produced by country y -- as well as container categories for documentary films about a specific topic in a country,

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I created this category after it occurred to me that there are certain seminal pop songs that stand out because they go beyond the usual four minute length for pop songs. Such songs span genres and are highly notable in the history of pop music, so the existence of this category improves the

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Another non-defining automobile award category. (Nominating these separately so each can be considered on its own merits) The award is so notable, that it doesn't have its own article (although it is at least mentioned in the main What Car? article), and most articles don't even mention it.

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The intent of the creation of this category is to make the encyclopedia recognize that every once in a while, pop music bands make an ambitious effort to record an outstanding song that is around seven minutes long, as opposed to the norm for pop music of about four minutes. I think it is

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cover this. First 'Avoid abbreviations' unless they are generally understood which AR certainly is not. Second and most importantly 'Choose category names that can stand alone'. Readers should not have to look at the category and see how it is categorised to deduce what the category

1752:. However I agree that the "Films about" categories (UK only) can be deleted. Re documentary films, many will fall into two categories; eg a film on French wines (which may not be a French documentary) into categories films about France and films about wine. But the category 1982:

Is it possible to, within a category's entry, to explain what the category signifies? I believe it is, but I haven't looked into how to do that. So my proposal is to keep the name of the category as it is, but to explain what makes a pop song long, possibly referring to the

1263:, or categorized by conviction. The category is not only negative, it is redundant. It also could not be used on articles about living people at all without a conviction, and they will nonetheless be continually added to the category. It puts Knowledge (XXG) at legal risk. 2513:

is listed with various lengths on that page, from 4 to over 8 minutes, and that's before you get to covers. This is quite normal and has been for decades; single and album version, 7" and 12" often differ primarily in length, so there's no fixed length for any

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I agree that this is a genuine phenomenon, but I expect it will be too slippery to define. I also think there will be far more potential entries in this category than you realise, and it could end up becoming a rather unwieldy and general list of songs. --

2539:- "Long" is so very vague and non-defining. "Pop" is far too vague as well. Herzen, don't try throwing around ad hominems about other users just because consensus is against you. "Modicum of familiarity" - no, the 7 minute thing is something you made up. 2059:

it to this category? I doubt that that would add more than about a hundred songs to this category. Of course, I could be wrong, since my knowledge of pop music is very narrow, and is represented by the songs that I have added to this category. –

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I believe that the description I added to the category clarifies it. There's nothing subjective here. Length of song is at least six minutes (significantly greater than the four minute airplay limit), and the song has an article about it. –

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I must say that I am surprised by the virtually unanimously hostile reception this category has received. Many editors say that the category is "subjective", but that view is philosophically naive, as far as I can tell. There is a definite

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Not seeing how this is a defining characteristic (this, or almost any of these "award winners"). Most of the time, the articles don't even mention this award anyway. Even the article linked to this category is massively incomplete.

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Even though I really like pop music, I don't care if this category gets deleted. But I honestly think it has clear and substantial encyclopedic merits. Having this category would help Knowledge (XXG) readers explore pop music. –

1340:, this category is very poorly defined. "Drug" is such a general term, anyone that has at one point taken a pain-killer or medicine fits in this category, rendering it useless. Also, possibly problematic in BLP sensitive areas.-- 3304:

I interpret 'generally used' as meaning most people would understand the abbreviation. Like NATO, USA, PRC, CNN. But 'AR' or 'AR platform' isn't generally understood to mean anything. There isn't a WP page for the platform, the

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in which his biography is categorized. Are we saying that he (personal) drug experiences are sufficiently not "appropriate" that we'll keep categories of things that are not claims to notability but delete this one? Looks like

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2767:-- whether song is long is a POV issue. In the days of shellac discs and then vinyl singles, a song too long to go on one side of a disc might be considered "long", but now therse are obsolescent, the eis no obvious test. 1773:-- A film about England might be a documentary film about England (or some aspect of English life or politics) or a film about fictional events set in England. These are different thigns and should not be combined. 3251: 3365:

I meant "Oppose" to your proposed name change to "AR-platform rifles," as AR-platform pistols exist. I apologize for the lack of clarity; as I recall I was editing on my phone and I must have mis-typed.

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Firstly these are not all pop songs. As noted above "long" does not define them. As to "over 7 minutes" this is an arbitrary figure. Why not 6 or 8 or 10. Some songs just happen to be long and that's all.--

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I don't see how anyone with a modicum of familiarity with pop music can be against Knowledge (XXG) gathering seminal pop songs of a greater length than standard airplay length into their own category. –

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encyclopedia. What such songs comprise is indicated by the songs I have added to this category. I had actually thought of naming this category "Seven minute long pop songs". But then I read the article

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I initially put it under "Pop songs", but that forced the "Long pop songs" category to deprecate inclusion of particular songs, as opposed to categories, which is why I changed its parent category. –

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You are right about the "stand alone" thing though, so !Yes to "AR-platform rifles" (just as there are currently "Anti-tank rifles," "Bolt-action rifles," "Semi-automatic rifles," and so on).

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I think people are being a bit obtuse to you here by not explaining the key issue. Categories are great for grouping content which has something in common that is not (very) subjective, e.g.

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to "AR-type firearms" per Rezin's suggestions. This is a far more intuitive naming and the added context actually helped me realise that I knew what an "AR platform" was in the first place!

42: 37: 2595: 1975:, which showed me that the length is actually between six and eight minutes. Hence, the vague term "long". I believe that article makes clear what "long" means in the category's title. 2715:

that are both pop songs and longer than four minutes. Your seven minute number is just something you picked based on a pure personal opinion, not a subjective encyclopaedic reason.

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a pop song? Not according to its article. i.e. both the time and whether to include a song longer than that time is subjective. Finally many songs do not have fixed lengths anyway.

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Any films specifically about the countries will sit in the documentary films category, which has a more clear name and scope than "films about " which could easily be misconstrued.

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Most of us are drug users, if only minimally. Anybody who smokes (including tobacco), drinks (coffee, coca-cola) or takes a tablet for headache, influenza, high blood pressure. --

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And on that point, it's not correctly categorized, I don't think. The {{Category:Pop music}} template has been applied, but surely it should be grouped under the more specific

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It is possible to include explanatory text on a category's page, and that would definitely help address my concerns regarding the current lack of clarity. A random example -

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Unclear whether it's only for the A-sides of singles, or any singles tracks, or if album tracks are allowed too. But whichever it is, it doesn't currently include

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between the songs I have added to this category. They are all significantly longer than four minutes, and all widely considered to be "classics" and masterpieces.

993: 3049:, but I'd rather see that deleted than this category. It's an indistinct group. I think templates are better suited to groups with a known list of members. 2282:

does state "The normal length for songs played on the radio is 3 to 4 minutes." I'm still not convinced we should categorize over and under, on that basis.

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category. I believe that there is little danger of this category becoming swamped with songs, since a song has to be exceptional to get its own article. –

2619:, and is clearly just a "I like this as a basis, so I'm going to roll with it" type of thing. I do agree with the article/list versus cat comment though. 3502:. Malformed stub category. No template. All articles directly added to category. Propose deleting category, removing all direct category additions. 1706:

suffers from the usual "films about" subjectivities: how much about the subject must the film be and what reliable sources say it's at least that much??

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This concept is subjective and is not suitable for the category area. However, there is a content gap here in that we could easily have an article on

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be used if they have become the official or generally used name where there are no other conflicts. "AR platform" has become the generally used name.

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drug activists are better grouped in the above stated categories by the nominator. This is also a category with extreme potential for mass misuse.

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Another non-defining automobile award category. The name makes it seem like it is some kind of major award... when it is actually just linked to

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Stop with this "culturally literate" nonsense, since it is both arrogant and an inaccurate statement. I can see quite a lot of songs in my

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for possession of or usage of drugs, then that's completely different, and that's a potentially valid cat. This though? Not even slightly.

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Slightly different to the other non-defining categories; not only is it non-defining, it's impossible to tell who actually awards this!

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I also really like how you manage to work in that the rest of us are obtuse. There's not enough of that sort of thing at this Afd. ;-)

1956:; Category as-is is very unclear; what constitutes a "long" pop song? Maybe keep as-is if the category description is made more clear. 2992: 1666:

has been populating this preexisting category from 2011. The "films about countries" tree is expanding. As the creator of some of the

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as not defining. It would be listify but the list’s already there and is a much better way to record this or a similar minor award.--

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doesn't list it. Something like "AR-platform rifles", or "AR-platform firearms" if "rifles" is too narrow, makes much more sense.--

2195:. Until such time as we have well-defined and agreed upon criteria for how long a long pop song needs to be, as we sort of do with 1987:

article. Please note that what I had in mind when creating this category was songs that were meant to be around seven minutes long

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We don't have History of ... stub cats for other U.S. states; underpopulated, no template. Would not be created if proposed at

331: 3233: 2895: 1749: 1509: 3469: 2616: 2615:, it doesn't exactly help Herzen's case that they respond with a comment like the one above. That is a blatant violation of 2838: 1062:- not defining in the least. Too much awards talk already, self-serving magazine awards such as these ought to be denied. 3477: 2565:

I didn't make up the 7 minute thing. The Beatles made it up with Hey Jude, creating a challenge for subsequent bands. –

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It is arbitrary and subjective. First the number (or numbers if it's changed) is just plucked from your head. Second

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Agreed; it certainly wouldn't hurt to create it. It would cover everything from the AKM to the PSL to the RPK.

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of a song. Thus both Hey Jude and Blue Monday were originally released in a greater length than seven minutes.

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But as I indicated, this is just a working title. I just did a Google search and came up with this blog post:

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also function as a main article providing some parameters for this category. My !vote still stands, though.

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mins? There is no universal tipping point to the definition "long", or even a majority agreeable one.

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of Category:Rifles. If it is renamed, it should be AR-platform rifles - but that would be redundant.

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Thank you for providing that example. I have made a tentative addition of explanatory text with

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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all of these categories, most of the specific articles are also of no interest.

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all of these categories, most of the specific articles are also of no interest.

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all of these categories, most of the specific articles are also of no interest.

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all of these categories, most of the specific articles are also of no interest.

2939:"AR platform" means AR-15 and AR-10 type rifles made by any manufacturer, e.g. 1106:-- after listifying it (if necessary) as we always do with awards categories. 886:-- after listifying it (if necessary) as we always do with awards categories. 460:-- after listifying it (if necessary) as we always do with awards categories. 241:-- after listifying it (if necessary) as we always do with awards categories. 3106: 3050: 3028: 2351: 2310: 2279: 2196: 2126: 1984: 1972: 1341: 1288:

indeed is notable as a drug user (certainly more notable for that than being

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for a comparison of the pros and cons of the methods of presenting content.

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long pop songs. The criteria was over ten minutes, not four, six or eight.--

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