1555:
never once explained in the article. This is why I get cranky reviewing MilHist articles - you guys often times do things that seem utterly incomprehensible to the non-miitary person. I get screamed at in MY noms to explain explain explain - would I not have to if I had some big wikiproject behind me so that they could just say "This is the way we do things"�? Sorry if I seem cranky, but I answered Sandy's call to have some reviews done - especially of topics that don't attract outside editors - and then I get a "we just do things this way, it's not worth trying to make things comprehensible to the non-specialist" vibe. I'm not really picking on you, Dank, but it seems every time I've reviewed milhist articles, I get the same issue...
616:, 1916 was the first year of British DST, and "For 1916, DST extended from 21 May to 1 October, with transitions at 02:00 standard time." That article doesn't say what the offset was; Stephen Ambrose says the offset was 2 hours in WWII, and Germany (and France) didn't use DST in WWII, so the Brits were actually 1 hour ahead of the Germans. Do you know the DST situation for WWI? - Dank (
984:-- Not sure I get the full significance of this sentence, from two perspectives. First off, where's south in relation to the combat zone -- rather than give the compass direction Beatty headed, why not state where he was going re. say the light forces you've just mentioned? Second, if the German ships could clear the bar, so what -- did that mean they could escape or they could engage?
1302:
Ealdgyth, I hope you'll pardon me for replies which may seem snippy ... they're not intended that way, but the issue was just raised again today at WT:FAC that prose is deficient at FAC these days ... assuming that this issue will be sitting on the table a few days, I'm going to have to respond when
1312:
Wartime modifications: "By 1918, New
Zealand carried a Sopwith Pup and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter on flying-off ramps fitted on top of 'P' and 'Q' turrets." the only way I had of knowing these were planes was through linking through to them. Suggest "By 1918, New Zealand carried two aircraft - a Sopwith
525:
I don't know, but the best I can tell, "east-south-east" is the most common hyphenation in BritEng, although it's inconsistent, and the AmEng style (east southeast or east-southeast) seems to appear more and more often in newer sources. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm making the changes now. -
356:
The 'lucky ship' portion of the lead is spread out in the body except I didn't find the phrase 'lucky ship'; you'd think there would be a wiki link for that term but its not evident as far as I can tell. In any case, I think you should add the phrase 'lucky ship' to one of the cited sentences about
1578:
I've standardized it so that each ship gets its prefix on first appearance. Also linked HMS and SMS on first appearance. I don't really mind having to explain things to laymen; it's just hard to remember what needs to be explained and to what level. I don't think that I've linked HMS in any of my
1554:
It's a question of consistency - it looks very odd to the casual non-military reader to occasionally have it and occasionally not. I THOUGHT I detected a pattern of having HMS or SMS on first usage, but it appears that I was wrong. This of course, leaves aside the fact that the abbreviations are
1543:
The first few (at least) criticisms about HMS/SMS above miss the point, which is that HMS and SMS can serve both as a heads-up that we're talking about a ship, and give the nationality of the ship ... but in cases where both of those things have already been established, they're unnecessary, and
1266:
Lead: "She had been intended for the China
Station, but was released by the New Zealand government at the request of the Admiralty for service in British waters." if she was a gift, why did the New Zealand government have to give permission for her to serve in British waters? An explanation here
225:
That sort of thing is usually presented in a book dedicated to the ship, which aren't all that common. My sources generally cover all the ships of a type in a given navy and lack that sort of detail. They usually focus on the technical side of things with only brief summaries of operational
1303:
people imply that there are serious prose problems that I don't think are present. On this point, MOS also says, "There may be some conventional codified exceptions", and I've only seen single quotes around single letters at
Milhist. I'll check around in style guides today. - Dank (
1210:- initially reviewed earlier versions of this article did not recognise adequately the importance of the piu-piu and tiki to the unique 'regimental tradition' of this ship. Now it's been work in very well, including the last battle 'he's got them on' as a sidebox.
1579:
British ship FAs before, but that's why it's good to have non-specialist reviewers. I just think that there are more people familiar with MilHist things than there are with medieval clerical terminology, so I don't get complaints about jargon as often as you do.--
838:
and it was not promoted until
December 6. Since I've just now seen this, I won't remove this FAC, but please do not nominate two articles at once again without getting leave from a delegate. I could be wrong, but I thought we already had this
514:
Oxford
Dictionaries gives "east-south-east" as the correct hyphenation; you've got a bunch of different styles in this article. Other styles may be okay if you can find them in a British dictionary, but they should be consistent. - Dank
1593:
Thanks for the review, Ealdgyth (you're all over FAC today!). Generally, on ship articles, I'm a layperson as well, but I've no problem sorting out the ship name on subsequent occurrences-- mostly because they're italicized anyway.
1361:
Acquisition: Why the sudden translation "...with the
Imperial German Navy (German: Kaiserliche Marine)." It's the English wikipedia, and while a translation might be useful on the Imperial German Navy article, here it just looks odd.
174:
1398:
Battle of
Heligoland Bight: I know we stated at the lede that the ship never had casualties in battle - but it would probably be best to explicitly state that she took no hits or casualties in each engagement description.
664:, p. 19: "French time was one hour earlier. Throughout Nazi-occupied Europe, clocks were set at Berlin time, and the Germans did not use daylight savings time, while the British set their clocks two hours ahead." - Dank (
117:
709:
to be singular or plural: "This allowed the Grand Fleet to cross Scheer's T, and they badly damaged his leading ships" vs. "the Grand Fleet steered north in the erroneous belief that it had entered a minefield." - Dank
1544:
arguably redundant. I checked the first few of those you mentioned and was happy with inclusion or exclusion of the prefix, but I haven't checked all of them ... Sturm, could you do the honors? - Dank (
951:
The
Indefatigable class was not a significant improvement on the preceding Invincible class; the main difference was the enlargement of the design to give the ships' two wing turrets a wider arc of fire.
1378:
Battle of
Heligoland Bight: Why "...under the command of Admiral Beatty." when everyone else is given a first name? Also, you link Admiral here, but no where else do you link the rank before a name?
602:
Also, "1st
Cruiser Squadron covered by the reinforced 1st Battlecruiser Squadron and, more distantly, the 1st Battle Squadron": putting all 3 in one sentence is a bit hard to follow. - Dank (
562:
1313:
Pup and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter on flying-off ramps fitted on top of 'P' and 'Q' turrets." to make this clearer. Mention of the usage of two aircraft might also help flesh out the lede a bit.
734:
674:
Tarrant, who uses mostly German sources, is an hour ahead of Campbell, Massie and the others that rely on British sources. My sources don't mention any DST issues that I remember.--
1395:
Battle of Heligoland Bight: Why "...led by Beatty aboard his flagship, Lion, began to head..." but later "....brand-new light cruiser HMS Arethusa had been crippled earlier..."?
831:
Sturm, this article was nominated on November 30th; per FAC instructions, nominators are supposed to have only one FAC up at a time. When you nominated this on November 30th,
630:. Ambrose is correct that there was a two-hour offset in WWII, but it's not a two-hour increment in April - the country actually stayed on BST year round, and moved an
240:
I looked around in the usual places and didn't find anything; I'm ok with no pennant or motto, but I'm not giving upon the battle honours - it has to be somewhere!
371:
You are correct in that the exact phrase isn't cited, but I think that's it's implicit in the Grant Howard quote and the other references to the Maori artifacts.--
1270:
The language in the lead implies that the gift came with an agreement on how or where the ship was to be used, though I don't know that that's the case. - Dank (
40:
1100:
Pursuit of Roon was abandoned, New Zealand was ordered to rejoin the battle cruiser squadron, and Beatty turned all of his ships directly toward Scarborough.
1295:
General note: I believe that the MOS wants double quotes instead of single quotes for things like "...identified as 'A' and 'X' respectively." Yep .. see
536:
I never can remember what the rules, if any, are about hyphenating directions. I tend only to do so if there are three all together like west-southwest.--
88:
83:
910:
File:Indefatigable_class_battlecruiser_diagrams_Brasseys_1923.jpg: if the author is not identified, how do you know he/she died more than 70 years ago?
92:
1402:
I don't agree. The piu-piu, etc. are explicitly credited several times regarding that and the single hit that she received during Jutland is noted.--
30:
17:
75:
133:
953:-- "Enlargement of the design" reads a bit oddly to me; were they using bigger blueprints? Better to say "dimensions" or some such, methinks...
1498:
Battle of Dogger Bank: "...relieving HMS Indefatigable as flagship." - Indefatigable has already been linked in the body and already has HMS.
322:
There certainly is no rhyme or reason to the level of detail, or lack there of, for capital ships in these supposed authoritative sources...
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Usual nice effort, 'pon which I've performed my usual prose edits, so pls check I haven't changed any meaning inadvertently. In addition:
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Thanks, I missed that this was the first mention of him, fixed. Per my disclaimer, I don't have an opinion on the second issue. - Dank (
979:, began to head south at full speed; the rising tide meant that German capital ships would be able to clear the bar at the mouth of the
612:"The times used in this section are in UTC, which is one hour behind CET, which is often used in German works.": I'm confused here. Per
1247:
759:", because the first link says that the 1st Cruiser Squadron was renamed "1st Battlecruiser Squadron" before this took place. - Dank (
583:
Yes, the literature has always read Imperial X Navy. Somebody must have changed on me without me noticing. I'll change it back now.--
211:
Honours and id/pennant should be in a source that describes the ship, I'd double check yours and/or maybe another editor can help.
138:
1365:
The German phrase is (and always has been) included because it predominates in some sources ... in fact, the WWII equivalent, the
254:) apparently comtains lists of all honours plus ships awarded them; this might be a useful approach if a specific history fails.
1036:
Not looking for a lot, even just a sentence about what she did, other than her captain wearing the tiki, would help... Cheers,
639:
1277:
See the last sentence of the first para in the acquisition and construction section and the 2nd para of the Service section.--
251:
1520:
Post-Jutland: already have linked minesweeper earlier in the article, so the link in the second paragraph is redundant
1327:
Dank - the ship's a battlecruiser. So ... the "flying-off ramps" could have been some weird projectile system also ...
1296:
889:
If I had to deal with holiday chores and a 2-week WP backlog at the same time, I'd go batty :) Take your time. - Dank (
79:
268:
I knew that there was a specialized reference or two that covered these, but no copy is convenient to me right now.--
1517:
Battle of Jutland: Need SMS in front of Van der Tann, Moltke, Prinzregent Luitpold, Seydlitz, and Schleswig-Holstein
613:
1191:
I'm away from my library right now, so I'll deal with these questions in a couple of days when I get back home.--
627:
1135:
New Zealand fired 147 shells at Blücher before the German ship capsized and sank at 12:07 after being torpedoed
1158:
Referencing, structure, detail and -- apart from Nikki's query above -- supporting materials all appear fine.
336:
I expect that the usual purging of archival sources accounts for the spottiness of certain types of details.--
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Most of these are niggles, but the usage of HMS/SMS and such need to be consistent throughout the article.
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Sandy, I could be wrong, but isn't it still allowed to have one nom and one co-nom up at the same time?
502:
308:
That makes two of us; I've deleted the order data from the infobox as too vague. Thanks for the review.--
173:
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it meets the criteria. It had a MILHIST
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730:
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in WWI. If I read things correctly, UK time in summer 1916 should thus be UTC+1, and German time UTC+2.
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was "directly to front", why did he have to "turn to pursue"? Wouldn't he just go full speed ahead?
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Could you add/cite honours (HELIGOLAND, DOGGER BANK,JUTLAND), id/pennant, and motto, if it had one.
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If nobody beats me to it I'll try and perform a spotcheck of online sources at some stage. Cheers,
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Actually Admiral wasn't linked separately, but was accidentally included in the link for Beatty.
1320:, but I have no objection to "two aircraft, a Sopwith Pup and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter,". - Dank (
1091:-- Can I confirm this is what you mean, that Beatty turned west for Scarborough after ordering
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to rejoin the squadron? Just want to make sure you didn't mean "turn" instead of "turned"...
1369:, doesn't seem to have a common English translation, so we just go with the German. - Dank (
489:. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (
1254:
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1029:
As a general comment on the Battle of Heligoland Bight subsection, I can't see much about
974:
911:
797:
No, Home Fleet was renamed Grand Fleet, although how I can see how you read it that way.--
456:
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Battle of Jutland: Need an HMS in front of Princess Royal, Tiger, Inflexible, and Castor
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I note you've actioned Nikki's point above, so happy with all this now. Cheers,
1004:
706:
1316:"The only way" ... well, that plus the fact that they're on "flying-off ramps"
1452:
Battle of Dogger Bank: Missing SMS? "...armoured cruiser Blücher's maximum..."
756:
751:
covered by the reinforced 1st Battlecruiser Squadron and, more distantly, the
294:
Ordered date is a little unclear - I can't tell if its 22 March 1909 or not.
787:
been renamed the "Grand Fleet" by this time, or is that page wrong? - Dank (
600:"attached to 1st Battlecruiser Squadron": consistency needed on "the" (1st).
1257:
problem. That's the section that explains the "gift to Britain". - Dank (
1568:
Okay, I'm going to disengage now, the delegates can sort it out. - Dank (
1487:
1506:
Battle of Jutland: Repeat link on "High Seas Fleet" in first paragraph.
638:. Germany seems to have used some form of daylight savings, though, per
1441:
Raid: Again, aren't these missing an HMS or SMS? "...The light cruiser
1340:
Heh, too many ship articles. Sure, the "two aircraft" is fine. - Dank (
1478:
as flagship..." already linked in teh body and already has an HMAS...
39:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
1490:
located a British...already linked earlier in body of the article.
1050:
All of my earlier responses seem to have disappeared. Odd. Added.--
634:
hour in the summer, to what was called "Double Summer Time"; see
1456:
197:
To match HMAS Australia, I added namesake, builder to infobox.
1493:
Yes. This is what I get for copy-pasting from other articles.
1253:
I'm not the expert on links, but I don't see how this is an
872:
Ah, ha ... thanks for the reminder! My bad, my apologies!
118:
Featured article candidates/HMS New Zealand (1911)/archive1
1459:, which..." already been linked that that far previously.
973:...the battlecruisers, led by Beatty aboard his flagship,
552:
Running through one more time, it's looking good. - Dank (
177:
a few months ago and I've revised it a little since then.
143:
1248:
Early naval vessels of New Zealand#Gift of battlecruiser
836:
447:
Be consistent in whether states are abbreviated or not
105:
101:
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57:
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would help flesh out the lede, which is a bit skimpy.
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to rejoin the squadron and turned west for Scarborough
439:
be consistent in whether ISBNs are hyphenated or not
1430:" to fit with the convention you've used throughout?
1233:Consider all of the below struck, supporting now.
769:Look at the last sentence of the 1st CS article.--
357:the Maori connection or leave it out of the lead.
1627:The above discussion is preserved as an archive.
455:Don't duplicate cited sources in External links.
1486:Battle of Dogger Bank: "...but after a scouting
41:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates
1297:Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style#Quotation marks
956:I've seen this has been actioned, tks. Cheers,
450:There's always one that sneaks through, dammit.
43:. No further edits should be made to this page.
1633:No further edits should be made to this page.
1455:Battle of Dogger Bank: "...Beatty's flagship
431:Be consistent in how page ranges are notated
29:The following is an archived discussion of a
8:
660:To keep things interesting, here's Ambrose,
18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates
1418:Raid on Scarborough: Shouldn't it be "HMS
573:... does that sound right to you? - Dank (
122:
811:Okay, now I see. No objection. - Dank (
208:I don't have any RS data on that stuff.
125:
115:
1137:-- Do we know who did the torpedoing?
245:Battles and honours of the Royal Navy
7:
1231:Close to support, but some niggles:
688:That must be right, thanks. - Dank (
423:Check alphabetization of References
390:- another interesting ship article.
1433:Raid: Who is "Admiral Warrender"?
24:
1246:Lead: Why the easter egg link to
1140:Seen this actioned, tks. Cheers,
747:Wait, I'm still confused by "the
626:I believe it was one hour - see
1098:This is the quote from Massie:
835:had no support and one opppose,
714:) 00:26, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
640:Daylight saving time in Germany
469:Done, thanks for the review.--
1:
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1201:23:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
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31:featured article nomination
1650:
1445:spotted the light cruiser
614:Time in the United Kingdom
507:I made the edit. - Dank (
1630:Please do not modify it.
1467:Battle of Dogger Bank: "
705:Decide whether you want
36:Please do not modify it.
1116:Okay, no prob. Cheers,
408:- spotchecks not done.
1318:on an aircraft carrier
862:was a co-nom. - Dank (
737:are my edits. - Dank (
503:WP:Checklist#intention
72:HMS New Zealand (1911)
65:HMS New Zealand (1911)
56:23:15, 6 January 2012
749:1st Cruiser Squadron
571:German Imperial Navy
567:Imperial German Navy
1064:Good, tks. Cheers,
785:1st Battle Squadron
753:1st Battle Squadron
731:standard disclaimer
636:British Summer Time
434:Another good catch.
247:(Leo Cooper, 1998,
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987:Ditto. Cheers,
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1436:He's linked.
1427:
1426:", and "SMS
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1383:push to talk
1371:push to talk
1367:Kriegsmarine
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226:histories.--
191:
190:
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139:Citation bot
69:
54:SandyGeorgia
49:
47:
35:
28:
1481:Good catch.
1469:New Zealand
1443:Southampton
1087:New Zealand
1031:New Zealand
924:Replaced.--
757:battleships
707:Grand Fleet
426:Good catch.
200:Good catch.
1212:Buckshot06
1033:anyway...
912:Nikkimaria
563:This ngram
457:Nikkimaria
410:Nikkimaria
252:085052623X
1475:Australia
1447:Stralsund
1557:Ealdgyth
1532:Ealdgyth
1488:Zeppelin
1449:and..."?
1422:", "HMS
1329:Ealdgyth
1235:Ealdgyth
1229:Comments
1179:Ian Rose
1163:Ian Rose
1142:Ian Rose
1118:Ian Rose
1066:Ian Rose
1038:Ian Rose
1015:Ian Rose
989:Ian Rose
958:Ian Rose
942:Comments
783:Had the
648:Shimgray
487:Comments
256:Shimgray
192:Comments
134:Analysis
50:promoted
1598:Georgia
1462:Indeed.
1225:Support
1208:Support
1007:Ariadne
876:Georgia
860:Arizona
844:Georgia
833:Arizona
727:Support
388:Support
126:Toolbox
89:protect
84:history
1501:Fixed.
1255:WP:EGG
1215:(talk)
569:beats
526:Dank (
93:delete
1596:Sandy
1523:Done.
1509:Done.
1473:HMAS
1424:Shark
1350:Done.
874:Sandy
842:Sandy
735:These
662:D-Day
632:extra
442:Done.
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1603:Talk
1585:talk
1561:Talk
1536:Talk
1457:Lion
1428:Roon
1420:Lynx
1408:talk
1333:Talk
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1197:talk
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1005:SMS
993:talk
976:Lion
962:talk
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881:Talk
849:Talk
803:talk
775:talk
680:talk
652:talk
628:here
589:talk
542:talk
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396:talk
392:Kirk
377:talk
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359:Kirk
342:talk
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314:talk
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274:talk
260:talk
249:ISBN
232:talk
217:talk
213:Kirk
183:talk
162:talk
106:logs
80:talk
76:edit
1003:If
755:of
644:and
175:ACR
52:by
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