Knowledge (XXG) talk:Hatnote/Archive 7

5311:, I'd hoped to avoid getting too much into the for/against arguments, but since that can of worms seems to have been opened above, a quick reply. I do think there's value to having a clear and reasonably narrow definition of hatnotes. First, readers over time learn that "the hatnote is the thing I should read when (and only when) I think I may have landed at the wrong page", and allowing them to be used for other purposes both disrupts that training. Second, there's the issue of prominence. The very top of an article is valuable real estate, so to speak, and should be reserved for the most important things. A clarification of naming practices is useful, but no where near as much so as the things we put in the first sentence or the top of the infobox. We don't want to clutter the top of a page with hatnote blindness any more than we do with banner blindness. Lastly, there's the concern about precedent. Editors have trouble using tools within proscribed boundaries even when the boundaries are relatively clear, as they currently are at 5504:

whether a person with a multipart surname is normally referred to with both of them or only one (and which one); and more prosaic things like whether someone with a name of the form "Foo Van Bar" or "Foo Von Bar" has a Germanic name where the surname is "Vn Bar", or whether it's an Asian (or some other) name in which "Von" or "Van" is their middle name (second given name), or their first given name in surname-then-given-names order, and the Vn has nothing to do with their surname/family name at all. And so on. Some of this stuff can be covered in article text for specific subjects, but some of it is rote stuff that will apply to many subjects as a class, which is why we templated it all to begin with. It might be better as footnotes instead of hatnotes, or whatever, but having templates of some kind available to cover recurrent cases of the same kind of note is beneficial for editors (save works) and for readers (consistently presented information).

4591:). The trouble now is that for some hatnote templates, custom text is handled in one way, and for others it's handled in a different way. I believe that whatever is ultimately chosen as the best solution, should be done across the board – for simplicity and consistency. We shouldn't be forcing editors to learn two separate ways of doing the same thing and then making them also remember which template used each one. Using the text parameter everywhere would be nice, but my impression from the quick look I had on the issue a few years ago was that there would be templates for which this wouldn't work. – 5150:

Elena Fernández Aréizaga (say) refers to her as Fernández. A hatnote seems like a completely appropriate way of doing so to me. No, it isn't about navigation to other articles. So what? The discussion should be about the most appropriate way to present this information, not about whether it is different from an unrelated piece of information that coincidentally happens to be presented in a similar-looking way. And incidentally, this discussion is completely misplaced here, since these templates are not hatnotes in the sense of things that direct readers to potentially-confused topics. I think

4364:

template pages initially contained only the template itself, and the documentation was later tacked onto the end. Even now we still have a lot of templates whose pages have this generic instance of the template displayed before the documentation, but if we're moving away from that, as we should be, then maybe in the end all templates' code will be includeonly and a template page will display nothing but the documentation. Then it won't be necessary to set it apart visually, so any hatnotes that go at the start of the doc page will necessarily also appear at the very top of the template. –

2790:

say that providing ability for find an article rests solely on disambig. Using the discussed example, it would be ludicrous for somebody to be surprised to not end up at the "Show of Hands" band's album when they typed in "Folk Music". And for finding the "Show of Hands" album one merely needs to type that in the search bar and they will quickly find the album. Possibly Uanfala's idea of Folk Music disambiguation page would be a work-around for most of these. If the title is prominent, there are probably several candidates to list on the disambig page.

4828:, for purposes other than navigation. I don't think the beforementioned phrasing of the question ignores or prejudices that, and I would expect that a background statement developed here would discuss that.) One option would be to first pose the first question, which is conveniently binary, and will determine whether we need to proceed to the second. Another option would be to pose both questions together; basically, the binary question 1, and then probably a menu of proposed acceptable uses for editors to individually !vote yes or no. Thoughts? -- 4283:

placing hatnotes at the top so that readers looking for another page can easily get where they want to go without having to wade into the wrong page. There are a few small disadvantages, though: putting it at the top requires using noinclude tags (thus making the page slightly more complex), prevents non-template editors from directly adding them to protected pages, and introduces possible confusion with the template itself (which is not a problem for 99% of templates, but definitely a problem for e.g.

3403:

that (1) stuff like whether hatnotes even exist on an page, and how they're used, used to be decided by Wikipedians at pages like this one and (2) now it may be decided by 1 or 2 people at WMF who might happen to drink today's trendy UI/UX/"D" koolaid that wants to hide everything away from users, think for them, decide for them, make all features and commands either a hidden Easter egg or simply disappeared completely. But hatnotes serve an important purpose in helping users to quickly

5481:

name(s) + family name. Nor can I see the unimportance of preventing drive-by editors from continually doing harm to articles about e.g. García Lorca by replacing that name with "Lorca", which I, like C&C above, suspect would happen if this note wasn't specifically placed above the article. Is there an inflation in hatnotes and banners as some have hinted above? I haven't seen any. But it's still also a question of the practical consequences for and against.

31: 5429:. So if they're not hatnotes, (1) they're doing a really, really good job of fooling everyone, and (2) everyone who participated in the last several TfDs did a really, really good job of pretending otherwise. If they're not hatnotes, we should be discussing redesigning them so they are distinct from hatnotes: (1) they are italicized because that is our style for cross-references, so that should change (2) they shouldn't use 5535:, of consensus to do so. If someone in the interim has edited the hatnote guideline (note: not policy) to inject some kind of "never ever for anything but nav links" dictat, where is the consensus for that, and on what basis is anyone considering that it supersedes many years of actual practice (which is what consensus actually is)? Remember that consensus is not a type of discussion or decision, it is a 2095:

should be clear on which article is being linked: piping could be used to balance out the effect of having to use a redirect, so that the reader can see the exact title of the article they're going to be send to. I guess this is a fuzzy area, but there are situations where piping is clearly better. Depending on the text of the hatnote, an unpiped link may not quite make sense. If the link is preceded by

2725:. Now, if wikipedia has an article (or any sort of relevant encyclopedic content) on a given topic, then there should be a way for readers to be able to find it. That's what hatnotes are for. It doesn't matter if the content it is about a commercial product or something else. If you believe the album to be so obscure as to pass below the notability threshold, you can nominate it for deletion. – 853: 763: 2379: 4816:

they thought it would be sufficient to watch the affected project talk page. Posting a notice of the discussion to the village pump and inclusion in the centralized discussion list would be sufficient, I think. It also makes it easier to locate in archives, as users are far more likely to search the archives of the affected project talk page than the whole of the village pump.

4207: 4176: 3493: 2939: 1402:. For this particular case, none of the other entries on the dab page is remotely relevant; only the buildings and places in that section. But I didn't find any guidance on whether including the section link was appropriate or not. Personally I am torn on the issue (either option has disadvantages) and would have appreciated some guidance that addressed this more directly. 4845:, that's an even broader set of questions than what I'm talking about above. The result I'm hoping for is some kind of deprecation of using hatnotes for surname clarification, and an alternative framework set up to replace it. Those questions allow for discussion on potential deprecation, but not for discussion and possible consensus around an alternative. 1907: 4880:

better RfC. As I think about it, I think I am preferring it. To your questions, I agree with how you have described the problem with using hatnotes, and I agree with putting forward your efn templates as the proposed replacement. (Lastly, I would still maintain that the place to discuss surname hatnotes is Knowledge (XXG) talk:Hatnote.) --

2416:

the information, but every single Google result for "WALL-E" is about the movie or the character. Had a made a note about what it was about, I might have had better luck. Guessing which newspaper didn't help since a search of its web site didn't work, but another resource I could access this week gave me what I needed, and I made an

5433:, (3) we should start moving them from above to below the banner area, (4) to say nothing of the erroneous categorization. It would also be helpful if we had a guideline about their use, so that those of us under the mistaken impression that they are hatnotes have something to which to refer to learn about them. -- 5355:'s concern that not all articles are wanting of efns. Obviously not all articles have infoboxes either. And, as appropriate, an edit notice would address those who find that the purpose is to prevent unaware editing of the articles. A result that it can be anything but a hatnote would be a valid one. -- 5498:

I had a lot to do with a large number of these templates. I always saw them as a stopgap (maybe something better would come along, like pop-up-on-hover notes, or whatever), and as a lesser of two evils, the greater being reader confusion about how to parse a name. I'm not wedded to these particular

5370:

It is already not a hatnote, except by miscategorization of these templates under the hatnote category. Think of it as a piece of information that by pure coincidence happens to have the same standard formatting as a hatnote. What makes that a reason to get rid of it? Why would the same reasoning not

4335:

The practice of putting hatnotes at the very top is at least notionally a concession for users with screen readers, as they implicitly read the page sequentially: the idea's that if they're on the wrong page entirely, that's the first thing that should be mentioned, rather than forcing them to listen

4282:

I've seen some templates that place disambiguatory hatnotes at the top of the documentation, and others that place it at the top of the template itself (within noinclude tags). Which is correct? The advantage of having it at the top of the page is that it would fit better with the general practice of

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and it's not the same thing although its name sounds the same. Or their search lands them on "John Smithington" but they should be told up front that maybe "John A. Smithington", his son, may be the subject they were truly interested in finding. The status of whether hatnotes even exist on iOS mobile

1975:

I suggest that if anything goes there it should be more nuanced, with a "in most cases" or "rarely" (am on mobile so not easy to check wording etc). And "fully disambiguated" didn't seem clear. NAMB itself is more permissive than the suggested note here, and there are some cases where confusion is so

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pages. Please, take care to provide citation links when making such assertions in the future. I often find that simply making the effort helps to reduce errors in addition to offering readily verifiable common points of reference for common consideration (and sometimes one finds unexpected gems along

4815:

Thank you for putting this together. As to the venue, I think this talk page is the most suitable. I'm not of the understanding that we use the village pump for "impactful" things, whatever that means. And I've recently seen criticism of RfCs conducted there that interested users have missed because

4783:

I'm hopeful that if we go about this intelligently, we'll be able to overcome the inertia of the status quo and put a better system in place. Please keep in mind that this is a meta planning discussion, and save any discussion that belongs at the upcoming RfC for the RfC. Also, there have been quite

4363:

This question largely depends on how we handle template documentation. Currently, the documentation is visually set off by a frame with a blue background and it's topped by a header with a bunch of links announcing that what follows is the documentation. I imagine this layout was chosen because most

3023:

Nice work in finding my old question there. I didn't agree with the response, but didn't feel like arguing then. I'll admit that I have continued to italicize scientific names of species in hatnotes by un-italicizing them like in the example above. I'd love to see further input on this to change the

2806:

If there is literally only two topics that meet the name, with one being clearly the most commonly known part of the topic, and the other something obscure, the hat note is the only way to do this. If there's two relaitvely unnknowns along with the clearly known one, then a disambiguation page could

2751:

Yes, it sometimes produces odd hatnotes, but how else can we provide navigation to an article which happens to be the only one with the same title, disambiguated, as a major topic? I don't see it as advertising, just providing the normal level of access to an article. I seem to remember discussion a

2493:

I have no idea how this reflects past consensus on the subject, but I would definitely prefer the lower case version. If we're going to capitalize it to call attention to the fact that we're referring to the name of a Knowledge (XXG) article rather than honorary degrees as a normal English noun (the

2094:

requiring all intentional links to dab pages to be done via the redirect ending in "(disambiguation)". Now, the choice is whether the link should make it explicit which redirect is being used, with the added advantage of alerting readers that the target is a disambiguation page, or whether the link

455:

I expect that it's a matter of consensus. If you removed the phrase "Obama redirects here" and nobody objected, then there would seem to be agreement that the phrase was not necessary—perhaps logical but not necessary. However, in other cases where the reason for the redirect is less obvious, it may

5548:

is clear that consensus can form anywhere. The venue for the present discussion and for the actual RfC really doesn't matter much as long as the drafting process is not dominated by a micro-cabal of people with the same opinion, the RfC is neutrally worded and actually addresses the right questions

5460:

b) forget the hatnote template and adopt a footnote style just in the few cases that the editor expects some kind of confusion. It would be great if we could ping all the Wikipedians involved in the previous discussions the OP have listed. Is it possible to ping them in a "automatic" way or must be

5350:

brings up some alternatives to the efn idea that we've seen workshopped. I suppose I should point out that we don't necessarily need to mandate a style for this information at all. It is possible we could create templates for the information to be presented as an efn, or in an infobox, or something

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would ideally be notified of this discussion). The trouble with that is that many readers probably don't know these things exist – and readers will probably be looking towards the infobox for any standardised bits of information. I'm thinking we could probably use some modular unit, either embedded

4879:

Well, it's interesting. The question of what, if anything, to do with surname explanations—hatnotes, endnotes, something else—is 90% of the question of what, if anything, to do with the hatnotes guideline. Because it's a more limited question, it might be an easier one to answer, so it might make a

4823:

As for the RfC itself, I see two questions here: (1) Should hatnotes be used other than for navigation? (2) If yes, what criteria should determine whether a hatnote is indicated for a particular usage? The second question is quite large in scope. (Anticipating this will be raised, yes, I understand

4779:

For here and now, I think we should focus, first, on doing some brainstorming. We currently have a plethora of different problems and two different frameworks in use. Are there additional problems that we'll want to solve with any wide-scale changes we may make? Are there other potential frameworks

4615:

I seem to recall that it's mostly a difference between ones that do exactly one blob of text, and ones that do list-construction on multiple text fields. If my survey says that's all there is, then an obvious path for unification would be to convert all extant list-construction uses to use a single

2420:

and was able to link to it, after which I was reverted, along with a change that would work better. Well, maybe. It depends on whether a person would actually look at "See also". If you remember only that something else is called "WALL-E", Knowledge (XXG) is not very helpful at this point. Although

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of discussions and decisions (primarily the latter, and primarily unwritten). So, to get to the RfC-drafting point, all of the heated invective about these side matters is a distracting waste of time, and the RfC should directly discourage it in some way. Yes, consensus can change, and TfDs have

2789:

The most recent occurrence of this (at the folk music article) was the most recent example that triggered this, but it it were about that particular situation I would handle it at the article rather than here. The reason I brought it up here is as described when I started this thread. We can't

2415:

This is just one example, but it is something that could happen with other search terms. I made a note several months ago about an article in an actual newspaper about "WALL-E" that I wanted to learn more about. I forgot to make a note about which newspaper figuring it would be easy enough to find

2312:

But really, what benefit is there to readers in knowing that the link in a "Not to be confused with..." is to a dab page? These situations will normally involve a word that is spelt similarly to the ones in the article's title; what difference does it make to the reader if this goes to a one other

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of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind." He argues that, where a name differs by only two letters, there is a real risk of confusion; I maintain that the significant difference in pronunciation and spelling (and typing) makes this improbable at best and

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should not be required to do so, and when that puts the information far too late in the article to do any good. And it isn't appropriate for a lead. But it is helpful for it to be very early in the article so that people who aren't familiar with the conventions can understand why an article about

3402:

are not merely patterns.) Maybe whether Knowledge (XXG) on iOS mobile just doesn't even have hatnotes anymore, and whether it ever will again, might be decided by a personal preference of someone at the WikiMedia Foundation who thinks that hatnotes are mere "clutter". The reason this annoys me is

1596:

Very often the reciprocal is not needed: eg if it's from "Jane Bloggs" to "Jane Bloggs (pilot)" who is the only other of that name, we give a hatnote from the article at the basename to the disambiguated one but not in the reverse direction, on the basis that no-one would land accidentally on the

5503:

a strategy to address the confusion problems. And they are multiple, including as some examples: which is/are the family name(s), whether multiple orders are used by/in reference to the same person, whether multiple forms are used for someone with multipart given name (Foo Bar, Foobar, Foo-Bar),

4850:

Given the scope you're thinking about, it makes sense that you'd want to host here, since you're centering around hatnotes, whereas I'm centering around surnames, and since there's no single page precisely about surname hatnotes, it makes sense to me to go to the pump. If there's a CENT listing,

2140:

I don't think it matters if the "(disambiguation)" page is a redirect. It's more important to be clear in the hatnote that the link leads to a disambiguation page. Also, the hatnote need not be updated if the disambiguation page is moved to or from the "(disambiguation)" title, but that's a side

1812:). The template is supposed to aid the reader to finding the correct article if he or she misspelt it or confused it with something else. This template is only used if there’s a strong resemblance between all the terms and an explanation isn’t needed. If an explanation is needed, a template like 1089:

Rule n. 5 of the lead recites: "If at all possible, limit hatnotes to just one at the top of the page. This also applies to the usage of hatnotes in subsections of articles. Such usage is not discouraged, and subsections should also have a maximum of one hatnote as well"; did the author possibly

150:

A lengthy debate about whether it is correct usage or necessary for a hatnote to be added to a page where a particular model name has been used by other manufacturers has reached an inconclusive end with those debating being more or less evenly split between yes and no. The event that caused the

5480:

we could as well be without it all. Nobody except Wiki aficionados would see it. And I can't see how it can be trivial to be able to understand why it's "Mao" not "Zedong" or for a non-Hungarian or non-Icelandic Westerner generally to realise that there are more ways of naming people than given

5320:

It seems from the above/the previous discussions that some editors find that rationale more persuasive than others, but the point is that enough editors do find it persuasive that a large discussion is clearly warranted, and I'd like to focus here on shaping what the contours of that discussion

4967:

I warn you that, if the consensus reached is localized, the confusion we would create maybe disruptive and far-reaching. I suspect these templates have been very helpful to readers and have also been protecting many pages from damage, from drive-by editors that would change all instances of the

4521:, used for mentioning two redirects in a single hatnote—I don't know how I'd rename that one if at all. I figured I'd mention this idea here first, as I'm open to alternative naming schemes, so that this idea could start as a discussion rather than go immediately to TfD as a pass–fail proposal. 3719:

To a reader unfamiliar with hatnotes, this would seem to suggest that hatnotes should never link to articles, only to dab pages. This should be rewritten to make it clear it's about cases where a disambiguation pages already exists. I'm also finding it bizarre that it suggests links to articles

2699:

a disambig that says "for the song "United States" by Larry's Band, see "United States (Larry's Band song)" In every case it's been pretty clear that it is to advertise the product in a prominent place. Usually they cite this editing guidline to say that it should stay in. Item #3 sort of says

401:. Those last two are also shortcuts, but they are far more plausible than the obscure jargon terms "hat" and "hatting". I realize that some people are fond of these jargon terms, but this is policy page for hatnotes. Shouldn't this page try to set an example by adhering to our own guidelines? – 5144:

This is background information about a culture, not specific to the subject of the article. It does not belong as article text (where pedantic editors will require published sources that the subject's name follows the obvious convention that it does and idiosyncratic editors will express it in

4819:

As I mentioned at TfD, I have seen three recently discussed uses of hatnotes other than for navigation: (1) concerning the names of natural persons, specifically which part of the name is the given name and which the surname, etc.; (2) pronouns used to refer to the subject; and (3) whether the

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to his fellow editors that this talkpage may be an appropriate and effective place in which to carry on more general meta conversation aimed at clarifying guidelines regarding the use of hatnotes to disambiguate and increase ease of discovery for readers of other articles across the wiki where

5249:

I think the issue is a little bit broader: it's about how we present and annotate information about a person's name: how the full name is structured, which bit of it is the short form to be used to refer to the person, and what sort order should the name appear in. Some, but not all, of this

3519:

A widely recognised issue is that we've got too many hatnote templates. Surprisingly many, given how simple is the job they do. One major practical consequence is that it can be difficult for editors to find the right template they need. Navigation to these templates happens via the section

3691:

generally needs no hatnote. Direct links to other articles should be limited to circumstances immediately following a page move or redirect change or if the other article could be reasonably expected by a significant number of readers to be at the title in question: for instance,

3394:. I wouldn't care if I was confident that it's just a bug that's going to get fixed sometime, maybe next year. But I have a bad feeling that what's more likely is that it is someone's private UI/UX/"D" preference that the rest of us aren't invited to influence. (Referring to 5269:

in an infobox, or used independently (for articles that don't have infoboxes), which will contain detailed annotations of the name (as well as alternative names), some parts of which will be displayed to readers while others will remain there in the code just for editors. –

3364:

With a technical village pump post you're much more likely to find someone who knows either why this is so, or of the processes to bring it up with the developers. I don't think you're likely to find such an editor among the people who're going to read this project page. –

5524:

PS: After reviewing some of the above. Yes, of course they are hatnotes. Yes, of course we have used hatnotes for more than just navigational information since around their invention. (I would cite some additional examples, but I think at this juncture that would have a

4566:

I wish I had the time to look into this more. Now, as far as I recall, the use of templates ending in "2" was a common way of handling hatnotes with custom text. But then at some point for some templates, this functionality was integrated into the main templates (using a

5315:, which is part of why we're here in the first place. Because hatnotes are so prominent, there's a huge temptation for them to become the place where you just throw anything you really want readers to see, so there's benefit to keeping a firm lid on their allowed scope. 486:

So at tempering (spice) it says "Oggarane" redirects here. For the 2014 Kannada film, see Un Samayal Arayil." It's not immediately obvious by Oggarane would redirect there, so people searching for "Oggarane" are helped by seeing "Oggarane redirects here", presumably.

3724:. This should be dropped altogether: after a move we change the hatnotes and call it a day, we don't go back and forth between different hatnote setups depending on how much time has elapsed since the move. I'm proposing the following version for this paragraph: 1462:

about linking to sections: "Similarly, when linking to a section of an article, leave an invisible comment, at the heading of the target section, naming the linking articles so that if the section title is altered the linking articles can be fixed. For example:

1049:

The hatnote on mainspace that linked to project page maybe confusing some readers. We should prioritize readers over editors. Just because its Knowledge (XXG) doesn't mean that you can link the similar term that only the editors community know, it may violated

2668:

I don't think the name of the "this" article is needed; date useful here because the death dates are so different that they will help distinguish; Salvation Army seems the major description for Marie; no extra blue links needed. I've edited both hatnotes, to:

981:

and on disambiguation pages (even with piping where necessary), suggesting italics is preferred even when referring to a Knowledge (XXG) article, not just to the concept or term it's about. I think it's a huge inconsistency and they should be in normal type.

5175:

are distinguished. While no article need contain explanatory footnotes any more than it need contain any other bit of content, we don't have a guideline that specifically recognizes a privilege not to use explanatory footnotes in favor of some other method.

3577:, which are used for linking to thematically related articles from within sections, but mix them in with the remaining templates, which are used at the top of articles for disambiguation. Maybe separate out the thematic templates into a separate subsection? 3349:

Nah, places like that tend to be where legitimate concerns go to die, unread by almost all. Leaving it here may actually get results by shaming someone into fixing what is either a stupidly bad "design" idea or a big bug. The facts should be restored here.

4336:

through a variety of other stuff before finding the hatnote as navigational aid. I think that that concern is lessened somewhat on template pages, but not completely absent. I would put the hatnote in the documentation block, but that's obviously not

3751:, because they are already listed in the disambiguation page. However, an article could be linked to in addition to the disambiguation page if it could be expected by a significant number of readers to be at the title in question: for instance, 1384:. Both our readers and the reliable sources are very likely to refer to all such places as "the Scala" (and rely on context to determine which is meant). Thus, to my mind, it would be entirely appropriate to have a hatnote saying something like 4379:

I think we could improve the family of hatnote templates by improving the naming scheme of variants. The names-with-numbers-appended pattern is opaque. I'd like to propose a mass move of templates so that their names are more self-explanatory:

5250:

information is implicit in how a person's name is used throughout the article, but it will be desirable to have it presented in a single place where readers (and editors) will expect to find it. At first blush, I'd think that should be the

5282:

says hatnotes are for navigation, and surname hatnotes are not used for that, they violate the guideline. Now I think that argument is rather pedantic and shallow. Guidelines should reflect actual, good practice. Surname hatntoes clearly

4704:

At the last discussion in particular, it became clear that the overall matter of surname hatnotes needs a large, centralized discussion, since there is extensive discontent with the current way of doing things (i.e. using templates like

5124:, which came after the Singapore name template; basically, I wanted to get the "simple" ones merged as proof-of-concept and also to gauge the interest in such a consolidation. The Spanish template was a little more complex, so I 5192:

Your comment preempts the RFC this discussion is actually planning, so you might want to be on the lookout for that one. I agree that MOSBIO is a place that discussion could be held. (So is LAYOUT; I might tend that direction.)

2051:

The lede, bullet point 1, says "Link directly to other articles; do not pipe non-disambiguation links.". The examples in the "Linking to a disambiguation page" section show "(disambiguation)" in the examples, i.e. not piped.

420:

It says "{(tl|redirect}}... can be used when an ambiguous title is redirected to an unambiguous title or a primary topic article". Any thoughts about when exactly it's best to use it or not? For example when ] redirects to

3995:

As far as I can see, this is an improvement as it makes the hatnote briefer: there's no need to specify what term is being disambiguated if it is the same as both the article's title and the base title of the linked dab

3407:

about where their search results have landed their attention and whether some other relevant piece of information exists that they should at least have a chance to be made aware of at that moment. Like maybe they heard

5549:

well, and the live RfC is well-"advertised" to the proper venues, including to VPPOL and CENT, which would be appropriate since this would affect a large number of articles; to related guidelines' talk page (this one,

384:

And I would argue that it's not even needed. Anyone familiar with the term "hat" for hiding a discussion must be familiar with the template. They know what it is and what it does. And they can easily find it with

4687: 3497: 231:"editors have reinstated hatnotes on both pages and are presently in process of reaching a consensus as to specific wording and choice of hatnote template to be used on the two specific articles under discussion" 3465:

and I think I've changed it to "High" priority, with an explanation for why I think it's important. (My first Phabricator edit.) If you want to contribute to that discussion there, it might help. We'll see what

2217:) also suggests the link can be piped. But these concentrate on the benefit to editors (and editing tools such as bots), to whom the displayed title is irrelevant. Showing the "(disambiguation)" is useful for 2700:

otherwise but covering this better would be good. Probably replace the "possibility" wordin #3 with something clearer. And maybe add "be particular careful on this criteria when listing a commercial product.

3323:

from the project page. It's an important point, but I don't think we should be trying to fix the apps by commenting on them here. I'm not sure where such discussion should take place. Any ideas? Maybe ask at

4784:

a few people involved in the different scattered discussions above, and there may be discussions I've missed. Feel free to list any other discussions, and to ping folks so long as you do it evenly. Cheers,

2694:

I've had it happen 3-4 times where , on a very high profile article, someone inserts a disambig to an obscure song or album of the same name by a band at the top of the article. Imagine at the top of the

957:

The point of the italics in the hatnote is to show that it is not part of the actual article, so any other formatting is confusing. Btw "Fiction" is redundant with "novel" and "society" with "society".

1846:

In other words, if there is a good chance that two different terms can be confused or misspelled into each other, and there is an equally good chance that both terms are well known to the reader, then

5053:

The reason why I suggest the RfC statement begins by explaining the high-level problem we are trying to solve. If it's deemed a problem worth solving, then we need alternatives if it's not a hatnote.—

1412:

firmly in mind, I'm sure we'll figure out the specific case that prompted this. But next time I run into a similar issue I would love to have more specific guidance to lean on: hence this request. --

4052:

I'm looking for feedback – if you think this is a bad idea let me know, and if you believe this will be an improvement then please say so – any future bot request will need evidence of consensus. –

5544:, not for all hatnotes ever. Wallowing in philosophical what-ifs and I-wishes will not help the RfC clarify consensus in any way, and just mire it in angry and basically off-topic noise. Finally, 4045:

I'm seeing these replacements as a small step towards simplifying existing uses of the hatnote templates, and a prelude to getting a better handle on the remaining uses of these two templates (see

2682:

This page is about the Guernésiais author and bird hospital founder (1897-1973). For the Salvation Army major and protestor against human rights abuses in Guernsey in World War II (1906-1943), see

2672:

This page is about the Salvation Army major and protestor against human rights abuses in Guernsey in World War II (1906-1943). For the Guernésiais author and bird hospital founder (1897-1973), see

2494:

only argument I can see for the capital letters) then we should also put the name in quotes or set it off in italic or something like that. Since we're not doing that, we should stay lower case. —

2322:

If readers are confused, there is no need to confuse them further. If the disambiguation page sits at the base page name, consensus has established that there is no primary topic, so we shouldn't

169:

As there are a number of similar situations with car models of the same name being made by different manufacturers I would like to see what the wider community thinks about this use of hatnotes

3943:. The main point is that we don't have uses of a more obscure template when the same job can be accomplished by using a simpler, more widely known one. The two replacements are the following: 5393:, as it has nothing to do with hatnotes except that the templates under discussion look like hatnotes, and it has everything to do with biography articles, which have a specific Wikiproject. 5121: 1497: 1492: 1262:

I agree this is pushing the limits. They're both model-actors relatively close in age, so it's not totally absurd, but anyone looking for a model-actress named "Brooke Bur<something: -->

4620:

instead of a separate "text" template. If that's not all there is … well, I suppose we can go for the short-term patch of tweaking the names for clarity while poking further at the issue.

2983:

after only three editors commented (two in favor, one opposed). I've assumed this was SOP, but upon reading this guideline, I found it wasn't. Can this be added to the guideline? —

4698: 4261: 1437:." I don't see any problem with this, and I don't see any problem with linking to a dab page section in cases where none of the entries in other sections of the dab page are relevant. 3614:

Go for it. When I have to select a hatnote template to use, it's always confusing. I have just fallen into using a few I know and ignoring the rest. If I can't figure it out I'll use

3321:"which is why it is counterproductive that the Knowledge (XXG) mobile app fails to display hatnotes. It used to display them below the lede; now it hides them from the user entirely." 3866: 3844: 3820: 471:

Can you find an exact example of what you mean, or make one up I suppose? I'll also have a look, I don't think any of the redirects to Barack Obama qualify as "reason less obvious"

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I'm glad to see we have guidance on hatnote templates to use when selectively transcluding entire sections of articles. I'm sure I'll have desperate need of that any day now. :)

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discussed where an appropriate venue might be for an upcoming large discussion. Given the potential impact of a change in this area, I'm inclined to agree with C&C that

4995:

fully describes what's proposed, since the intention is to add the information somewhere else in the article. By the way, are there any edit notices covering the issue? --

4140:. While I've probably eliminated all of the cases, if new parameter-less instances of the template are added, they'll also become categorized as using unusual parameters. 1962: 1976:

likely so that even readers of pages with disambiguated titles would benefit from one of these hatnotes. (Two villages in different districts of same county, possibly).

5219:

or otherwise to provide navigation from people with different order names (or to point to an appropriate dab page of the same), as another potential consideration. --

3009:

Thanks for bringing this up again. The practice I've seen is that we do italicize, by un-italicizing, text that would normally be italicized in hatnotes. For example:

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I can definitely get behind this. I'd say step zero, which I've used successfully for other such hatnote simplifications, would be to categorize such uses into

4013:

equals the article's title. This will not change the appearance, but it could have a possibly negative side effect if in the future the article is moved – with

4671: 5287:, even if they are not strictly speaking for navigation caused by ambigious titles. This is the essence of hatnotes and the guideline should reflect that. 5145:

idiosyncratic and inconsistent ways in different articles). It does not make sense to require it to be an efn, when many articles do not use efns and per

4021:

it will likely need to be updated. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing – after most moves hatnotes will need to be changed anyway (for example a

5386: 5151: 512:{{About|USE1|USE2|PAGE2|USE3|PAGE3|other uses|PAGE4}} (When there are several standard other uses and also a disambiguation page with non-default name) → 2343:

By the by, I would cut the link to "Ami (disambiguation)" and maybe to "Amin (disambiguation)" anyway. I can't see a reader mistaking "Amine" for "Ami".

5093:

but is another case where the "main" surname to be used as sort key and in referring to the person isn't obvious to all readers from the article title.

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are alright, but they're already used on all pages that they can be used on, so it's unlikely that an editor browsing the table will actually need them.

553:

is a keyword in hatnote templates that have variations on "For X, see Y"; it lets you specify multiple pages (targets) for the same "use". For example:

3696:

is about the country, but many readers reasonably expect to find the article on the bird at that title; therefore, the hatnote there correctly reads

3192:

the only example on the associated project page which uses italics. If that flies, then maybe also we can add some text to the instructions. Thanks,

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Usually when an italicized word is used in an italicized phrase, the convention is to put the italicized word in normal type. Using an example from

2326:

people by implying there is one. The "(disambiguation)" informs readers that the name has more than one meaning. Piping it hides that information.

1010:. For the benefit of readers unfamiliar with the systems, I thought of making a hatnote template or templates that would generate messages like: 5390: 1271:, and anyone typing "Brooke Bur" in the search box will see all three names drop down to perhaps help jog their memory of the correct surname. – 1238:. It appears we differ on our understanding of what is meant by the admonition that we should "ention other topics and articles only if there is 5233:

Hatnotes for navigation are always approporiate for ambiguous or likely confused names, independent of how we handle these "surname hatnotes".—

3117:

does not upright the ship name, so maybe that's an indication? It might also be an exception since ship titles are often partially italicized (

2642:

Okay, but strip out all those unnecessary links that aren't the ambiguous term, so people can more easily find the link they're looking for. --

456:

be necessary to use "… redirects here. For other uses, see …" for clarity, when a disambiguation page exists that is relevant to the redirect.

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we might want to explore? Once we've brainstormed, we should then put together a draft RfC that we can take to the pump to seek consensus.

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sense) on disambiguating hatnotes, and in the process of figuring out what to do, there were two things I wished for more guidance on from

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is about the country, but many readers expect to find the article on the bird at that title; therefore, the hatnote there correctly reads

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text field (reconstructing the constructed list in the first text parameter to do the change in-place), then convert those uses to use

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is really long and detailed. Maybe we could have fewer examples of each template, and leave out the more obscure templates altogether?

3151:

In my IRL work I used to take the un-italicize route, but at some point I decided to looks weird, and I began to underline, like this:

2508:

I don't know what the explicit consensus is either, but my experience, which appears to be backed up by what I see in the examples at

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effect of inspiring someone to go create more trouble.) The bare fact that we have done so for about a decade and a half is proof,

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hatnote, as in the example with honorary degree, I'd tend to use lower-case as well, although other people's practice might vary. –

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Well, it depends. Piping might be undesirable in most cases, but by no means all. I can see how there can be different views about

4041:), and if the link in the hatnote suddenly turns red after the move this will be a good reminder for editors to edit the hatnote. 2168:

I would unpipe the "(disambiguation)" links. The point is to make clear in the hatnote that the link is to a disambiguation page.

2943: 2931: 2389: 1144:"Such usage is not discouraged" must mean usage of hatnotes in subsections is not discouraged. That was the preceding sentence. 1002:

In many music-related articles, the text will use one of several "shorthand" notation systems to indicate musical pitches, e.g.

283: 4633: 4534: 4397: 4353: 4153: 4097: 2757: 630: 3720:(given a dab page exists) are OK not only when a significant number of readers might be looking for that article but also for 3600:, but given the well circumscribed use of the category templates, I think it will be better if they had a navbox of their own. 3580:

The navbox also lists the templates for use on category pages, mixing them in with the rest. I guess it makes sense for, say,

2229:, but then we obviously shouldn't pipe the "(disambiguation)" - because it would look like a link to the primary topic itself. 4964:

You can include a list of previous discussions, but please keep all opinions out of the preface and add them to your !votes.

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If there are no objections, I will likely proceed to implement some of these suggestions. Please share your ideas as well! –

1115:

That was definitely confusing wording, and did not actually reflect consensus. I've rewritten it to describe actual practice

370:"Hat" and "hatting" for "Hidden archive top" are slang, not a proper title. The policy on this page is no hatnotes for slang. 4652: 1681:

Exactly under what circumstances, the distinguish hatnote can be added to an article? Is it only based on the user's taste?

5154:

would be a much more appropriate place for a discussion about what, in essence, is a matter of how to format biographies. —

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of the hatnote does not know that the link is to a disambiguation page - be it at the base page name or not - and gets a

5087: 4741: 4081: 2753: 1391:. And even if the consensus would be against that, I would still want more direct guidance on how to handle such cases. 645:

Thanks ... so the second example is included simply to illustrate that the trailing "and" is ignored? Seems reasonable.

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Yes, I agree too. I wouldn't necessarily say there are too many templates, but I agree with all 4 of your suggestions.

1776:

Yes, your examples are valid. I don’t think there’s a specific rule, like “X amount of characters has to be different.”

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If a disambiguation page exists for a given term, then linking to it should be enough. For example, if the article is

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where I would like to say that when "CW" was used in that article it is meant as chemical weapon, for other uses see

131:

in opposition to other editors prior to initiating an RfC should instead remain in place/be restored in some form. --

4293:). If this hasn't been discussed before, I think it'd be a good thing to sort out and standardize. Courtesy pinging 3832: 2830: 2155:

I don't think this would be an improvement. But let's take a concrete example. How would you change the hatnotes in

1755:

similar? If there is a dispute between two users about the use of the hatnote, what policy will settle the dispute?

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be the way to not dilute the main topic, but when its only the 1, this is the only route to help with searching. --

38: 5558: 926:

For me this frequently comes up with the scientific names of genera or species which are in italics. For example:

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I'm considering asking for a bot (or an editor with a semi-automated tool like AWB) to replace some instances of

3452: 3355: 3140: 2738: 1939: 1597:"pilot" page if they were looking for the other one - with exceptions if the two are very likely to be confused. 1540:

It depends on the hatnote - perhaps you could give an example of the kind of hatnote you're thinking of? Thanks.

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I've always treated this as SOP; however, I usually only change those when other edits were needed. I see where

2965:

Should we be putting italics inside already-italicized hatnotes when such words would otherwise be italicized?

363:, which is back again. Following are some of the reasons why I think it isn't needed and shouldn't appear here. 47: 17: 5376: 5159: 4956: 4607:

That's a good point! I'll do some survey work at some point (extending somewhat the data I've already gathered

2499: 1473: 1442: 1192: 1105: 1035: 1014: 1003: 461: 5550: 4730: 2745:(that article already has a bit of a hatnote clutter, so it's best to keep the hatnote links to a minimum). – 5486: 4729:

and its peers as an alternative framework that uses a footnote instead of the hatnote. There have also been

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at the moment, and whether they ever will again, is not something that should be censored from appearing at

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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/China and Chinese-related articles#Hatnote for Chinese names of people

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is the same as the article's title. This will result in a change of appearance. For example, the hanote at

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and other culture-specific ones with name hatnotes); to the templates' talk pages (incl. also the "root"

5545: 3259:

I've never used the word "parameterization" before, but the other examples use it. What do others think?

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I'm not too familiar with modules etc. needed to fix this – can someone more experienced take a look? ‑‑

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Is the capitalization needed for the the first letter of the article title in the hatnote? For example:

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It's been deleted several times before. If someone wants to put it back, shouldn't they have to say why?

347: 295: 227:"has reached an inconclusive end with those debating being more or less evenly split between yes and no" 174: 5574: 5570: 3487:

Discussion at MOS on whether to use inline footnotes for family name clarification instead of a hatnote

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I've spent a while thinking about this, and ended up back where I started: why would you use a pipe in

2059:

pages, not make this loophole. I've just fixed an example of it being jumped through in the hatnote at

1643:. Ideally the person who created the disambiguated stub would have added the hatnote, but they didn't. 374: 5213: 5044: 4981: 4755: 4575: 3899: 3498:

Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/China_and_Chinese-related_articles#Hatnote_for_Chinese_names_of_people

3448: 3351: 3314: 3127: 3111: 2991: 2920: 2532: 2303: 2272: 2133: 2109: 2102: 1948:

I still see a lot of this sort of misuse of hatnotes, and I don't think the extra notice would hurt.

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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2018 February 18#Template:Redirect3 and Template:About2

583:

keyword, the template assumes that the next parameter is the next "use" rather than an extra target:

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I support this as a good idea. Simplification of hatnote templates generally is a good initiative.

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because neither the venues' names nor their articles' names are actually ambiguous. Neither should

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Is this an appropriate use of the hatnote formatting? Should anything else be added to the text?--

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instead suggest removing all hatnotes because they happen to look like name-format descriptions? —

2214: 2091: 2008:, it is usually preferable not to have a hatnote when the name of the article is not ambiguous." — 1430:

said: "Thus, to my mind, it would be entirely appropriate to have a hatnote saying something like

398: 380:

It violates the policy to "If at all possible, limit hatnotes to just one at the top of the page."

229:, represents the state of things prior to initiation of this subsection. I'm inclined to suggest, 5133: 4553: 4515: 4492: 4238: 4215: 4184: 4063: 3884: 3791: 3733: 3668: 3638: 3625: 3467: 3344: 3329: 3273: 3260: 3193: 3091: 3063: 3049: 3025: 2966: 2947: 2722: 2393: 2370: 1295: 1071: 942: 930: 258:

multiple manufacturers have made use of the same – or perhaps even very similar – model names. --

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so no problem. If an album is called "Folk Music", then it must be accessible through the term

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point of view. My proposal is to launch a RfC as simple as possible, with two options a) keep

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can be used. Otherwise, if either or both terms are likely not well known to the reader, then

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This page is about USE1. For USE2, see PAGE2. For USE3, see PAGE3. For other uses, see PAGE4.

515:

This page is about USE1. For USE2, see PAGE2. For USE3, see PAGE3. For other uses, see PAGE4.

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else, and let the decision of which is best be made at the article level. That would address

4927: 3660: 2005: 1941: 1051: 394: 5584: 5507: 5438: 5430: 5418: 5360: 5308: 5290: 5181: 5000: 4930:. This would have huge ramifications. Also ensure the RfC is very concise and to the point: 4885: 4833: 3618: 3571: 3411: 3118: 3077: 2764:, and as there is an article at that title, it has to have a hatnote pointing to the album. 2643: 2430: 2099:, then this context calls for the name of a topic or a concept, not an exact article title. 1930: 1220: 1161: 1145: 1121: 1075: 987: 838: 751: 703: 343: 291: 170: 128: 5312: 5279: 5209:

An approach I've suggested elsewhere is for these to take a different form, that is to use

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and gives extremely prominent placement to what is essentially trivia. I have been pushing

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Knowledge (XXG):Village_pump_(technical)#Cannot_find_hatnotes_displayed_anywhere_in_iOS_app

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I'm not going so far as to recommend that for use here, but just thought I'd throw it out.

2198:

is the base case where the words "other uses" themselves make "(disambiguation)" redundant.

1712:

is added to an article to distinguish the article from another article with a similar name.

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article as a reader might confuse “Coma” with “Comma” since the two terms are so similar.

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with the OP. This has always bugged me, especially given italics is already prescribed in

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Knowledge (XXG):Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 62#East Asian family names templates

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for some context). The total number of pages affected is going to be around a thousand.

2090:, which is a disambiguation page. Piping wouldn't even be on the table if it weren't for 1315: 5597: 5520: 5490: 5470: 5442: 5412: 5380: 5364: 5339: 5303: 5273: 5242: 5228: 5202: 5185: 5163: 5137: 5112: 5062: 5048: 5004: 4985: 4926:

If the RfC must be held here, please ensure the widest possible notification, including

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Knowledge (XXG):Village pump (policy)/Archive 88#Surname clarification at top of article

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If the linked text isn't explicitly referring to an article, then it's not capitalised:

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I've been thinking about this a lot lately. While in the past I have argued that since

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The situation that appears to have prompted this thread is the disagreement on whether

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Why the name information is deemed important to readers' understanding of the article.

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the redirect 2 could be renamed to redirect duo, pair, combo, or something like that.

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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 26#Template:Multiple pronouns

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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 23#Template:Singaporean name

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I've pinged the previous discussants to try to bring more attention to this. Thanks,

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which speaks of a hatnote from the primary topic but not the other way. Thank you.--

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There's one template that would presumably escape with its number intact, which is

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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2018 February 19#Template:Distinguish2

1373: 1350: 1332: 1272: 1245: 1234: 1228: 1055: 959: 488: 472: 450: 434: 433:"? Does it have anything to do with the relative notability/primacy of the topics? 422: 316: 308: 3462: 1788:

is for possible misspellings or terms that can be confused with each other (e.g.,

3758: 3699: 2130:? That seems a way to add, not reduce, confusion. Just use a different hatnote: 1365:

doesn't redirect there and the article's title is not ambiguous. So far so good.

667:

I am seeking help to find the hatnote that best fits what I had hoped to use for

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can probably skip some of the more niche topic-specific templates. The template

3528:. How can these two places be improved? Please, share any ideas you might have! 3241: 3073: 3043: 2733:

Actually, there is also another apparently noteworthy album with the same name:

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2020 April 16#Template:Other uses2

3285:

I think "inverted" is more accurate than "reverted", so I've changed the text.

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that the hatnote is unnecessary clutter. A third opinion would be appreciated.

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Talk:Nissan_Caravan#RFC on disambiguation hatnotes for 'Caravan' named vehicles

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To keep hatnotes short, generally they should only list disambiguation pages (

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Remove hatnote linked from mainspace to other namespace (usually project page)

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templates, or to any particular alternative strategy, as long as we actually

4084:, but I'm tired so I'm not going to implement it at least until I'm fresher. 2425:

article needs a hatnote or there needs to be a disambiguation page. Also see

5453: 5426: 5394: 5327: 5220: 5194: 5117: 5094: 4862: 4810: 4790: 4317: 3741: 3501: 3237: 3218:"Spotted angle" redirects here. For the other butterfly with this name, see 3172: 2765: 2226: 2020: 2009: 1977: 1970: 1957: 1949: 1644: 1598: 1541: 2512:), is that if we're referring to an article, then we do capitalise, as in 4235:

Knowledge (XXG):Templates for discussion/Log/2020 June 4#Template:Not WMF

2613: 2601: 2583: 2556: 1459: 2221:. When there is a strongly related topic we sometimes link both to that 1488:

Several hatnote templates have been nominated for merging/deltion. See:

290:

It isn't mentioned on the linked page, so the statement appears obtuse.

4856:

Do you have any thoughts re the brainstorming questions I posed above?

2885: 2881: 2863: 2859: 2560: 2426: 1063: 339: 338:

That much is obvious. But what does "hatting" mean? It appears to be a

162: 4571:

parameter), and the dedicated custom-text templates got deleted (like

4260:

Watchers of this page may be interested in the following discussion:

3960: 3894:

but have been reverted. Can someone else please take a look. Thanks.

3752: 3693: 3135: 2627:

hatnote seeks to avoid the likely confusion with specific details. --

2422: 2087: 2064: 2060: 1809: 1793: 1789: 2586:. For The Guernsey protestor against the human rights abuses by the 919:

one as the story progresses. The novel follows a boy named Jonas...

829:

one as the story progresses. The novel follows a boy named Jonas...

4932:

Should all surname, family name, patronymic name templates such as

4233:

Watchers here may be interested in a hatnote-related discussion at

4117:

where parameter 1 is case-insensitively equal to the title over at

3188:

Seeing as how this has not attracted any more comment, I've boldly

1944:

referred to/reiterated at the top of "Other uses of the same title"

923:

Note that I've also made "young-adult" and "dystopian" lower case.

524:

What's the difference? Did the extra parameter "|and" do anything?

249: 4136:

hastemplate:"other uses of" insource:/\{\{ *other *uses *of *\}\}/

3722:

circumstances immediately following a page move or redirect change

3435: 3090:. I also changed the capitalization of the subject heading above. 2523: 2313:

article, or to several articles that are bundled in a dab page? –

2299: 2268: 2247: 2172: 1805: 1722: 1362: 1158:

The entire line item was a mess anyway. Makes way more sense now.

597: 567: 5260:

box at the end (as that information would normally be part of an

3124:). Wouldn't hurt to have some guidance both here and at the MoS. 3072:

or somewhere like that, or start an RfC, or this'll get nowhere.

2329:

But anyway, the loöphole is wider than just "confused" hatnotes.

342:. If it's meant as slang, then it should be clarified somewhere. 4715:) due to the fact that it contravenes the hatnote guidelines at 1797: 1098:

subsections should also have a maximum of one hatnote as well"?

1517:

To what extent, if any, does the appropriateness for a hatnote

1408:

In any case, with some close reading of this page, and keeping

4968:

subjects name to Western perceptions and bastardizations. ---

3210:

could be sufficient, or we could add something like the below:

2382: 1801: 846: 756: 425:, it it best to say "Obama redirects here. For other uses see 25: 3909:

A bot to replace some instances of two "other uses" templates

3391: 1306:

Missing guidance on generic terms and linking to dab sections

4683:

User talk:Designate#Surname clarification at top of articles

2390:

Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#Hatnote_for_Buggy_(automobile)

2055:

So why say "non-disambiguation pages"? We shouldn't pipe to

1465:==Implications 518:{{About|USE1|USE2|PAGE2|USE3|PAGE3|other uses|PAGE4|and}} → 5425:, and they're all placed where hatnotes would be placed in 3386:. Someone there helpfully pointed to the bug report, which 2829:

I've just noticed that some old hatnote templates, such as

2741:

listing the two albums, and add a hatnote linking to it at

2232:

I feel the same about piping links in "See also" sections.

1290:- Even I have gotten the two confused from time to time. -- 691: 672: 4181:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Ships/Guidelines#Hatnotes

4169:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Ships/Guidelines#Hatnotes

3821:

the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page

3729: 3680: 3676: 3672: 2981:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:Hatnote/Archive 7#Italics in italics

2846:{{Distinguish-otheruses|Example#section|Another#section}} 2281:.. and you would prefer it if instead it read like that: 1923:

the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page

4762:

would be the appropriate venue; we'd also want to place

4375:

Changing hatnote template naming scheme to avoid numbers

3434:, but before they land on and read an article about the 2690:

Advertising obscure commercial items on high usage pages

1345:

Now, what I landed on based on current guidance is that

4133: 4017:

the link will remain the same after the move, but with

3759:{{about|the country|the bird|Turkey (bird)|other uses}} 3736:; it should not have entries for other topics known as 3700:{{about|the country|the bird|Turkey (bird)|other uses}} 3189: 2417: 2156: 2083: 1953: 1116: 870: 780: 238: 236: 234: 193: 188: 2004:

Ok, then what about repeating the exact wording: "Per

929:"Texola" redirects here. For the butterfly genus, see 4694:

Knowledge (XXG):Bot requests/Archive 81#Name hatnotes

3398:

but the "D" for "design" has to be in quotes because

911:. It is set in a society which at first appears as a 821:. It is set in a society which at first appears as a 609:

Trailing "and" keywords, or missing list items (e.g.

233:, might serve as a useful alternate characterization. 5417:The templates in question are all transclusions of 4737:has recently tried to address with the creation of 4119:

Category:Hatnote templates using unusual parameters

4078:

Category:Hatnote templates using unusual parameters

4018: 4014: 4010: 4006: 4002: 3956: 3952: 3948: 3414: 2979:) asked this previously, but it's been archived at 1394:The second issue is the hatnote link to a dab page 877:. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. 787:. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. 549:Hi, I wrote the underlying code that governs that. 3819:. You are invited to comment on the discussion at 3766:This page is about the country. For the bird, see 3707:This page is about the country. For the bird, see 3557:Both this page and the navbox list templates like 3248:The italics are reverted by the parameterization: 2184:Not to be confused with ... Amine (disambiguation) 1921:. You are invited to comment on the discussion at 1310:I just stumbled into a minor disagreement (in the 1118:, though others may want to refine that copyedit. 1094:discouraged ", or "Such usage is not discouraged, 2837:, do not parse links to subsections in line with 2604:protestor against the human rights abuses by the 2522:Not to be confused with the similar substance of 1621:Yes, that answers my question, and comports with 5569:); and to appropriate wikiprojects' talk pages ( 4911:What are tradeoffs of other non-hatnote options— 4667:Previous discussions (some bigger than others): 4663:Planning for the future of surname clarification 5385:The venue for this discussion should be either 3683:is a disambiguation page and the article is at 3447:, so I'm going to post the status of it there. 1739:What counts as a similar name? For example are 1329:(the article with the hatnote under discussion) 278:Could somebody please explain what this means: 5387:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Biography 5152:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Biography 4301:who I recently briefly discussed this with at 161:For other makes with the same model name, see 159:pages. At this point in time the hatnote says 3726: 3665: 3515:Improving navigation to the hatnote templates 3426: 617:) are intentionally ignored, for resiliency. 8: 2737:. I think it's best to create a dab page at 151:debate was the addition of a hatnote on the 5530: 3438:they should be told that there is also the 3423: 2944:WT:Disambiguation#Use of "See also" hatnote 2932:WT:Disambiguation#Use of "See also" hatnote 1434:Scala (disambiguation)#Places and buildings 1400:Scala (disambiguation)#Places and buildings 1388:Scala (disambiguation)#Places and buildings 1339:Scala (disambiguation)#Places and buildings 416:When should "Obama redirects here" be used? 305:It concerns the pair of template redirects 5391:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Biography 4690:(most comprehensive of recent discussions) 4210:You are invited to join the discussion at 4179:You are invited to join the discussion at 3548:specifically for townships in Pennsylvania 3496:You are invited to join the discussion at 2942:You are invited to join the discussion at 2188:For other uses, see Amine (disambiguation) 2171:Surely you would not recommend writing in 1335:(the possibly-confused-with other article) 377:, shortcuts should not appear in hatnotes. 112:seeking to determine whether longstanding 4611:) to look at the problem a bit more, but 3981:After the change it will look like this: 3537:Knowledge (XXG):Hatnote#Hatnote templates 3522:Knowledge (XXG):Hatnote#Hatnote templates 3417: 3392:https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T240721 3214:===Hatnotes with italics in the links=== 98:RfC regarding hatnotes and disambiguation 4824:that hatnotes are currently being used, 4031:hatnote will need to be replaced with a 3808:Hatnote templates nominated for deletion 3552:for articles about popes named "Stephen" 2578:This page is about Marjorie Ozanne, the 2569:German occupation of the Channel Islands 2418:improvement to a Knowledge (XXG) article 2132:This article is about bar. For foo, see 1639:There's an example I've just created at 195:of longstanding (year+) hatnotes on the 146:Models with the same name as other makes 4278:Where should hatnotes go for templates? 2980: 1521:imply propriety in the reciprocal form 596:This page is about USE1. For USE2, see 566:This page is about USE1. For USE2, see 5018: 4931: 4851:hopefully anywhere could work alright. 4617: 4568: 3721: 3320: 2961:Resurrection of italicization question 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 5266:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Libraries 2600:This page is about Marie Ozanne, the 2555:Here are two hatnote examples of two 2388:You are invited to the discussion at 7: 5423:Category:Hatnote templates for names 5285:clear confusion about article titles 4256:TfD on hatnote template for pronouns 3790:Yes, I think that's an improvement. 3420: 3068:I feel like we need to take this to 2735:Folk Music (Far East Movement album) 2612:author and bird hospital founder in 2582:author and bird hospital founder in 875:adding citations to reliable sources 785:adding citations to reliable sources 5264:record; that's also one reason why 2756:, though there's now a dab page at 2421:maybe that is unlikely. Either the 2411:What if a Google search won't work? 1341:(the relevant dab page and section) 977: 127:which were removed unilaterally by 102:There is a (somewhat disorganized) 2913:Talk:Monotheism#Monotheist_hatnote 1263:" could sort it out by looking at 837:For the 2014 film adaptation, see 750:For the 2014 film adaptation, see 736:Italic type#Italics within italics 615:|USE1|USE2|PAGE1|and| |and|PAGE3}} 602:Hatnote/Archive 7 (disambiguation) 24: 5083:? Doesn't seem to be included in 5019:... and the information moved to 3890:I have tried adding a hatnote at 3272:Example added as proposed above. 2454:Capitalization for article titles 225:Also, I'm unsure as to how well, 4205: 4174: 3971:For other uses of "Anomie", see 3491: 3410: 2937: 2907:To hatnote, or not to hatnote... 2377: 1905: 1432:For similarly named venues, see 1386:For similarly named venues, see 915:but then later revealed to be a 851: 825:but then later revealed to be a 761: 29: 5171:is about citations, from which 5017:. Another suggestion is to add 3841:Template:Distinguish-otheruses3 3837:Template:Distinguish-otheruses2 3388:is classified as "low priority" 2835:Template:Distinguish-otheruses2 2758:Book of Mormon (disambiguation) 1458:But keep in mind the advice at 862:needs additional citations for 772:needs additional citations for 698:, a hatnote isn't necessary. - 282:For "hatting" old debates, see 5443:16:41, 22 September 2020 (UTC) 5413:08:03, 22 September 2020 (UTC) 5381:04:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC) 5365:01:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) 5340:17:51, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5304:15:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5274:10:57, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5243:09:59, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5229:08:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5203:08:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5186:01:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) 5164:07:45, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5138:18:37, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5113:07:26, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5063:04:58, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5049:04:28, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 5005:04:25, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4986:04:16, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4921:04:11, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4890:04:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4875:04:02, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4838:03:50, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4803:03:17, 21 September 2020 (UTC) 4733:concerns, which it looks like 3833:Template:Distinguish-otheruses 3732:then its hatnote will link to 3679:redirects to that article. If 2925:22:01, 12 September 2019 (UTC) 2831:Template:Distinguish-otheruses 2567:, and both working during the 2551:Examples of two Guernsey women 2225:the DAB in a hatnote, e.g. at 2019:Yes, that seems fine. Thanks. 429:" or just "for other uses see 1: 5582: 5505: 5496:Old timer "involved" comment: 4776:, and other relevant places. 3655:1HAT and disambiguation pages 3510:02:32, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 3475:21:37, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3457:17:52, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3370:14:05, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3360:03:54, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3337:02:01, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3298:19:43, 30 November 2019 (UTC) 3206:Just having the example from 2956:09:38, 19 November 2019 (UTC) 2543:22:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC) 2504:22:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC) 2488:18:19, 26 February 2019 (UTC) 2449:16:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2406:12:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 1876:are usually better suited. -- 1508:02:01, 21 February 2018 (UTC) 1478:15:29, 11 February 2018 (UTC) 1447:13:41, 10 February 2018 (UTC) 1422:07:17, 10 February 2018 (UTC) 1349:should not have a hatnote to 1197:14:51, 17 December 2017 (UTC) 1180:04:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC) 1159: 1154:23:49, 13 December 2017 (UTC) 1140:20:42, 13 December 2017 (UTC) 1119: 1110:18:54, 13 December 2017 (UTC) 1080:15:01, 8 September 2017 (UTC) 411:01:16, 23 February 2017 (UTC) 352:20:45, 27 November 2016 (UTC) 334:17:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC) 300:16:00, 27 November 2016 (UTC) 268:06:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC) 214:06:07, 10 February 2017 (UTC) 179:02:34, 10 February 2017 (UTC) 5598:10:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC) 5542:for these specific templates 5521:02:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC) 5491:17:24, 26 October 2020 (UTC) 5031:or something like that. --- 4820:subject is connected to WMF. 4082:Module:Other uses of/sandbox 3865:is up for deletion as well: 3590:to be displayed right after 2754:The Book of Mormon (musical) 2721:should include a hatnote to 2353:07:41, 1 February 2019 (UTC) 2339:07:11, 1 February 2019 (UTC) 2318:13:01, 31 January 2019 (UTC) 2242:06:44, 31 January 2019 (UTC) 2164:21:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC) 2151:11:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC) 2118:02:32, 30 January 2019 (UTC) 2077:01:46, 30 January 2019 (UTC) 2039:18:34, 24 October 2018 (UTC) 2015:17:17, 24 October 2018 (UTC) 1996:17:03, 24 October 2018 (UTC) 1963:16:51, 24 October 2018 (UTC) 1300:14:07, 17 January 2018 (UTC) 1281:14:36, 15 January 2018 (UTC) 1267:, where they will also find 1257:03:42, 15 January 2018 (UTC) 1027:to describe musical pitches. 1017:to describe musical pitches. 562:|USE1|USE2|PAGE1|and|PAGE2}} 359:I've deleted the hatnote to 141:20:44, 26 January 2017 (UTC) 18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Hatnote 5471:06:09, 4 October 2020 (UTC) 4774:WT:WikiProject Anthroponymy 4657:16:50, 31 August 2020 (UTC) 4639:05:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 4369:16:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC) 4273:03:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC) 3281:22:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC) 3268:06:53, 22 August 2019 (UTC) 3201:19:56, 16 August 2019 (UTC) 2902:15:24, 20 August 2019 (UTC) 2739:Folk Music (disambiguation) 361:Template:Hidden archive top 5615: 5126:put it off for "phase two" 4596:23:24, 8 August 2020 (UTC) 4193:07:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC) 4159:02:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC) 4103:03:58, 26 April 2020 (UTC) 4072:16:30, 20 April 2020 (UTC) 4057:17:27, 15 April 2020 (UTC) 3963:currently looks like this: 3904:17:59, 25 April 2020 (UTC) 3874:22:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 3852:22:18, 11 April 2020 (UTC) 3828:00:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC) 3800:14:15, 12 April 2020 (UTC) 3783:21:23, 11 April 2020 (UTC) 3765: 3706: 3647:14:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC) 3633:19:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC) 3609:13:46, 11 April 2020 (UTC) 3544:Template:Hatnote templates 3526:Template:Hatnote templates 3217: 3183:11:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC) 3158: 3012: 2681: 2671: 2663:01:35, 18 March 2019 (UTC) 2637:00:04, 18 March 2019 (UTC) 2599: 2577: 2521: 2513: 2470: 2460: 2392:regarding the hatnote for 2375: 2293: 2284: 2262: 2253: 2086:to Yellow. The link is to 2065:Yellow #5 (disambiguation) 1898:Nomination for merging of 1368:Now my first issue: while 1216:and I disagree on whether 1040:16:33, 8 August 2017 (UTC) 1022: 1012: 998:Acceptable use of hatnote? 968:23:56, 10 April 2017 (UTC) 952:23:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC) 928: 836: 749: 712:Thank you. I understand.-- 655:06:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC) 636:20:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC) 595: 565: 536:17:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC) 187:Questions arose following 4562:18:28, 20 July 2020 (UTC) 4540:14:30, 14 July 2020 (UTC) 4461:Redirect-distinguish-text 4359:14:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC) 4330:01:22, 18 June 2020 (UTC) 4107:I've categorized uses of 3624:and write it out myself. 3531:Here are a few thoughts: 3144:03:03, 30 July 2019 (UTC) 3099:00:59, 29 July 2019 (UTC) 3082:22:14, 28 July 2019 (UTC) 3057:02:43, 26 July 2019 (UTC) 3033:22:20, 24 July 2019 (UTC) 2997:21:28, 24 July 2019 (UTC) 2820:23:12, 21 July 2019 (UTC) 2802:22:52, 21 July 2019 (UTC) 2784:18:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC) 2730:14:28, 21 July 2019 (UTC) 2712:13:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC) 2608:in World War II. For the 1935:02:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 1060:Word-sense disambiguation 1025:Scientific pitch notation 1008:Scientific pitch notation 497:00:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC) 481:23:17, 1 April 2017 (UTC) 466:22:32, 1 April 2017 (UTC) 443:21:15, 1 April 2017 (UTC) 163:Caravan#Automobile models 4552:Looks reasonable to me. 4482:Redirect-distinguish-for 4251:19:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC) 4224:07:43, 11 May 2020 (UTC) 3659:The second paragraph of 3240:belonging to the family 2880:Not to be confused with 2858:Not to be confused with 2471:Not to be confused with 2461:Not to be confused with 2294:Not to be confused with 2263:Not to be confused with 2186:any more "jarring" than 2108:Not to be confused with 2101:Not to be confused with 2097:Not to be confused with 1886:23:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 1842:15:31, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 1765:15:27, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 1735:14:07, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 1691:13:51, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 1663:11:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 1635:10:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 1617:10:18, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 1584:10:04, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 1560:09:50, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 1535:08:27, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 1484:Hatnote templates at TfD 1015:Helmholtz pitch notation 1004:Helmholtz pitch notation 992:13:38, 3 July 2017 (UTC) 979:DISPLAYTITLE</h1: --> 744:had a chapter about that 592:|USE1|USE2|PAGE1|PAGE2}} 505:disambiguate these forms 5452:: I totally agree with 4649:Emir of Knowledge (XXG) 4212:Talk:Volksfront#Hatnote 4200:Talk:Volksfront#Hatnote 3987:Anomie (disambiguation) 3973:Anomie (disambiguation) 3772:Turkey (disambiguation) 3713:Turkey (disambiguation) 3671:) if the article is at 3445:Knowledge (XXG):Hatnote 722:06:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC) 708:06:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC) 685:05:38, 7 May 2017 (UTC) 5540:suggested that is has 5531: 5128:of the consolidation. 4903:An RfC should include: 4398:about-distinguish-text 3817:nominated for deletion 3776: 3770:. For other uses, see 3717: 3711:. For other uses, see 3308:Hatnotes on mobile app 3246: 2884:. For other uses, see 2862:. For other uses, see 2516:Water (disambiguation) 2287:Amine (disambiguation) 2256:Amine (disambiguation) 2106:sounds a bit jarring; 1359:Scala (disambiguation) 1322:. First, the players: 1209:"A large possibility"? 1085:Possible contradiction 921: 831: 431:Obama (disambiguation) 427:Obama (disambiguation) 284:WP:Closing discussions 5563:Template talk:Hatnote 5173:explanatory footnotes 5013:asking to remove the 4472:Redirect-distinguish6 4451:Redirect-distinguish2 3933:with the more common 3813:Template:Redirect for 3396:user interface design 3216: 2839:Template:Section link 2590:in World War II, see 2410: 2296:Amin (disambiguation) 1915:nominated for merging 835: 748: 579:If you don't use the 274:Meta-hatnote question 204:the way as well). -- 42:of past discussions. 3985:For other uses, see 3086:I'll post a note at 2559:women with the same 2514:For other uses, see 2304:Ami (disambiguation) 2285:For other uses, see 2254:For other uses, see 2177:For other uses, see 2134:Foo (disambiguation) 2103:Foo (disambiguation) 2047:Disambiguation pages 1718:{{Distinguish|Coma}} 871:improve this article 781:improve this article 694:doesn't redirect to 5567:Module talk:Hatnote 5088:Family name hatnote 4742:Family name hatnote 4009:in all cases where 3955:in all cases where 3949:{{other uses of|X}} 3892:Alexander Friedmann 3883:for the redirected 3881:Alexander Friedmann 2911:Is the question at 1919:Template:Other uses 1677:Distinguish hatnote 1513:Reciprocal hatnotes 1265:Brooke (given name) 1240:a large possibility 1226:is appropriate for 1090:mean: " Such usage 901:young-adult fiction 899:is a 1993 American 811:Young-adult fiction 809:is a 1993 American 4991:I'm not sure that 4388:About-distinguish2 3885:Alexander Friedman 3879:Use of hatnote at 3734:X (disambiguation) 3669:X (disambiguation) 2825:Hash section links 2723:Folk Music (album) 2394:Buggy (automobile) 2371:Buggy (automobile) 2113:is much better. – 1564:I was speaking of 1380:, they are fairly 1357:have a hatnote to 1023:This section uses 1013:This article uses 742:The Scarlet Letter 730:Italics in italics 247:I'd like to thank 245:While I'm here ... 5461:done manually ? — 5421:, they're all in 5337: 5325: 5262:authority control 5255:Authority control 4872: 4860: 4800: 4788: 4772:notices here, at 4327: 4315: 4015:{{Other uses2|X}} 4003:{{Other uses2|X}} 3835:(and the related 3663:currently reads: 3585:Category see also 3146: 2886:Another § section 2882:Example § section 2752:while back about 2659: 2250:reads like this: 1832:is used instead. 892: 891: 802: 801: 600:. For PAGE2, see 95: 94: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5606: 5596: 5534: 5519: 5431:Template:Hatnote 5419:Template:Hatnote 5410: 5401: 5338: 5335: 5334: 5332: 5323: 5293: 5259: 5253: 5218: 5212: 5110: 5101: 5092: 5086: 5082: 5076: 5041: 5035: 5029:and Edit Notices 5028: 5022: 4978: 4972: 4961: 4955: 4951: 4945: 4941: 4935: 4873: 4870: 4869: 4867: 4858: 4814: 4801: 4798: 4797: 4795: 4786: 4771: 4765: 4746: 4740: 4728: 4724:Efn Chinese name 4722: 4714: 4708: 4637: 4626: 4619: 4606: 4590: 4584: 4580: 4574: 4570: 4551: 4538: 4527: 4520: 4514: 4507: 4501: 4497: 4491: 4486: 4480: 4476: 4470: 4465: 4459: 4455: 4449: 4444: 4438: 4434: 4428: 4423: 4417: 4413: 4407: 4402: 4396: 4392: 4386: 4357: 4346: 4328: 4325: 4324: 4322: 4313: 4310: 4304: 4292: 4286: 4271: 4209: 4208: 4178: 4177: 4157: 4146: 4139: 4137: 4130: 4124: 4116: 4110: 4101: 4090: 4040: 4034: 4030: 4024: 4020: 4016: 4012: 4008: 4004: 3958: 3954: 3950: 3942: 3936: 3932: 3926: 3922: 3916: 3864: 3858: 3778:Any thoughts? – 3760: 3701: 3623: 3617: 3599: 3593: 3589: 3583: 3576: 3570: 3566: 3560: 3495: 3494: 3433: 3432: 3429: 3428: 3425: 3422: 3419: 3416: 3405:think critically 3382:OK. I posted at 3348: 3318: 3296: 3291: 3255: 3142: 3138: 3130: 3116: 3110: 3067: 3047: 3008: 2988: 2941: 2940: 2900: 2847: 2812: 2781: 2772: 2660: 2657: 2653: 2648: 2606:German occupiers 2588:German occupiers 2537: 2531: 2480:Wei4Green | 唯绿远大 2445: 2439: 2433: 2381: 2380: 2197: 2129: 2036: 2027: 1993: 1984: 1974: 1940:I'd like to see 1909: 1908: 1875: 1869: 1865: 1859: 1855: 1849: 1839: 1831: 1825: 1821: 1815: 1787: 1781: 1775: 1732: 1720: 1719: 1711: 1705: 1702: 1660: 1651: 1614: 1605: 1573: 1567: 1557: 1548: 1467: 1457: 1255: 1253: 1248: 1225: 1219: 1178: 1138: 980: 950: 949: 887: 884: 878: 855: 847: 797: 794: 788: 765: 757: 752:The Giver (film) 634: 623: 616: 593: 582: 563: 552: 548: 454: 325: 320: 312: 252: 129:User:Mr.choppers 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5614: 5613: 5609: 5608: 5607: 5605: 5604: 5603: 5581:), and so on). 5478:With a footnote 5404: 5395: 5328: 5326: 5322: 5288: 5257: 5251: 5216: 5210: 5104: 5095: 5090: 5084: 5080: 5074: 5045:Coffeeandcrumbs 5039: 5033: 5026: 5020: 4982:Coffeeandcrumbs 4976: 4970: 4959: 4957:Patronymic name 4953: 4949: 4943: 4939: 4933: 4863: 4861: 4857: 4808: 4791: 4789: 4785: 4769: 4763: 4756:Coffeeandcrumbs 4744: 4738: 4726: 4720: 4712: 4706: 4665: 4624: 4621: 4600: 4588: 4582: 4578: 4572: 4545: 4525: 4522: 4518: 4512: 4505: 4499: 4495: 4489: 4484: 4478: 4474: 4468: 4463: 4457: 4453: 4447: 4442: 4436: 4432: 4426: 4421: 4415: 4411: 4405: 4400: 4394: 4390: 4384: 4377: 4344: 4341: 4318: 4316: 4312: 4308: 4302: 4290: 4284: 4280: 4265: 4258: 4231: 4206: 4203: 4175: 4172: 4144: 4141: 4135: 4132: 4128: 4122: 4114: 4108: 4088: 4085: 4038: 4032: 4028: 4022: 3940: 3934: 3930: 3924: 3920: 3914: 3911: 3888: 3862: 3856: 3845:now also at TfD 3810: 3775: 3716: 3657: 3621: 3615: 3597: 3591: 3587: 3581: 3574: 3568: 3564: 3558: 3524:and the navbox 3517: 3492: 3489: 3461:I've gone into 3449:Quercus solaris 3413: 3409: 3352:Quercus solaris 3342: 3315:Quercus solaris 3312: 3310: 3287: 3286: 3249: 3225: 3166: 3136: 3129:Paine Ellsworth 3128: 3114: 3108: 3061: 3037: 3020: 3002: 2986: 2963: 2938: 2935: 2909: 2896: 2864:Another#section 2860:Example#section 2845: 2841:. For example: 2827: 2810: 2775: 2766: 2692: 2687: 2677: 2674:Marjorie Ozanne 2656: 2649: 2644: 2621: 2618:Marjorie Ozanne 2595: 2553: 2535: 2529: 2527: 2519: 2476: 2473:Honorary degree 2466: 2463:honorary degree 2456: 2443: 2437: 2431: 2413: 2386: 2385: 2378: 2374: 2307: 2290: 2276: 2259: 2246:The hatnote at 2191: 2123: 2049: 2030: 2021: 1987: 1978: 1968: 1946: 1906: 1903: 1873: 1867: 1863: 1857: 1853: 1847: 1835: 1829: 1823: 1819: 1813: 1785: 1779: 1769: 1753:Theodore George 1749:George Theodore 1728: 1721:is used in the 1717: 1716: 1709: 1703: 1696: 1679: 1654: 1645: 1608: 1599: 1571: 1565: 1551: 1542: 1515: 1486: 1464: 1451: 1314:sense, not the 1308: 1251: 1246: 1244: 1223: 1217: 1211: 1176: 1136: 1087: 1047: 1028: 1018: 1000: 941: 940: 937: 913:utopian society 905:dystopian novel 888: 882: 879: 868: 856: 845: 823:utopian society 815:Dystopian novel 798: 792: 789: 778: 766: 755: 732: 696:Chemical weapon 669:chemical weapon 665: 621: 618: 610: 605: 587: 580: 575: 557: 550: 542: 507: 448: 418: 391:template:Hidden 340:town in Austria 323: 314: 306: 276: 248: 148: 119:distinguishing 100: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5612: 5610: 5602: 5601: 5543: 5538: 5502: 5493: 5474: 5473: 5447: 5446: 5445: 5383: 5373:David Eppstein 5353:David Eppstein 5345: 5344: 5343: 5342: 5318: 5316: 5286: 5276: 5271:Uanfala (talk) 5247: 5246: 5245: 5207: 5206: 5205: 5189: 5188: 5156:David Eppstein 5142: 5141: 5140: 5070: 5069: 5068: 5067: 5066: 5065: 4924: 4923: 4909: 4905: 4904: 4897: 4896: 4895: 4894: 4893: 4892: 4854: 4852: 4848: 4846: 4821: 4817: 4702: 4701: 4696: 4691: 4685: 4680: 4675: 4664: 4661: 4660: 4659: 4645: 4644: 4643: 4642: 4641: 4593:Uanfala (talk) 4509: 4508: 4487: 4466: 4445: 4424: 4403: 4376: 4373: 4372: 4371: 4366:Uanfala (talk) 4361: 4279: 4276: 4257: 4254: 4230: 4227: 4202: 4198:Discussion at 4196: 4171: 4167:Discussion at 4165: 4164: 4163: 4162: 4161: 4074: 4054:Uanfala (talk) 4043: 4042: 4019:{{Other uses}} 4007:{{Other uses}} 3998: 3997: 3993: 3992: 3991: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3965: 3964: 3953:{{other uses}} 3910: 3907: 3887: 3877: 3871:Uanfala (talk) 3849:Uanfala (talk) 3825:Uanfala (talk) 3809: 3806: 3805: 3804: 3803: 3802: 3780:Uanfala (talk) 3763:which renders 3704:which renders 3656: 3653: 3652: 3651: 3650: 3649: 3626:SchreiberBike 3606:Uanfala (talk) 3602: 3601: 3578: 3555: 3540: 3516: 3513: 3488: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3477: 3468:SchreiberBike 3375: 3374: 3373: 3372: 3367:Uanfala (talk) 3330:SchreiberBike 3309: 3306: 3305: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3301: 3300: 3274:SchreiberBike 3261:SchreiberBike 3212: 3211: 3194:SchreiberBike 3186: 3185: 3169: 3168: 3167: 3153: 3152: 3148: 3147: 3105: 3104: 3103: 3102: 3101: 3092:SchreiberBike 3050:SchreiberBike 3035: 3026:SchreiberBike 3021: 3010: 2962: 2959: 2934: 2930:Discussion at 2928: 2908: 2905: 2893: 2892: 2891: 2890: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2868: 2849: 2848: 2826: 2823: 2787: 2786: 2749: 2747:Uanfala (talk) 2732: 2727:Uanfala (talk) 2691: 2688: 2666: 2665: 2552: 2549: 2548: 2547: 2546: 2545: 2540:Uanfala (talk) 2496:David Eppstein 2455: 2452: 2412: 2409: 2376: 2373: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2355: 2341: 2327: 2315:Uanfala (talk) 2310: 2309: 2308: 2291: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2260: 2230: 2199: 2169: 2161:Uanfala (talk) 2138: 2115:Uanfala (talk) 2048: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2041: 2017: 1999: 1998: 1945: 1938: 1925:. Thank you. 1902: 1896: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1777: 1745:Daniel Nathans 1713: 1678: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1668: 1667: 1666: 1665: 1589: 1588: 1587: 1586: 1514: 1511: 1505:Uanfala (talk) 1501: 1500: 1495: 1485: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1470:Biogeographist 1449: 1439:Biogeographist 1343: 1342: 1336: 1330: 1307: 1304: 1303: 1302: 1284: 1283: 1269:Brooke Burfitt 1210: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1199: 1189:Jan Hoellwarth 1185: 1174: 1134: 1102:Jan Hoellwarth 1097: 1093: 1086: 1083: 1046: 1043: 1032:Theodore Kloba 999: 996: 995: 994: 970: 943:SchreiberBike 890: 889: 859: 857: 850: 800: 799: 769: 767: 760: 731: 728: 727: 726: 725: 724: 675:. Thank you.-- 664: 661: 660: 659: 658: 657: 640: 639: 607: 606: 577: 576: 506: 503: 502: 501: 500: 499: 484: 458:Biogeographist 417: 414: 382: 381: 378: 371: 368: 357: 356: 355: 354: 288: 287: 275: 272: 271: 270: 241: 240: 217: 216: 201:Nissan Caravan 157:Nissan Caravan 147: 144: 121:Nissan Caravan 114:disambiguation 106:being held at 99: 96: 93: 92: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5611: 5600: 5599: 5594: 5591: 5588: 5587: 5580: 5576: 5572: 5568: 5564: 5560: 5556: 5552: 5547: 5541: 5536: 5533: 5528: 5522: 5517: 5514: 5511: 5510: 5500: 5497: 5494: 5492: 5488: 5484: 5483:151.177.57.31 5479: 5476: 5475: 5472: 5468: 5464: 5459: 5455: 5451: 5448: 5444: 5440: 5436: 5432: 5428: 5424: 5420: 5416: 5415: 5414: 5411: 5409: 5408: 5402: 5400: 5399: 5392: 5388: 5384: 5382: 5378: 5374: 5369: 5368: 5367: 5366: 5362: 5358: 5354: 5349: 5341: 5333: 5331: 5319: 5317: 5314: 5310: 5307: 5306: 5305: 5301: 5297: 5292: 5284: 5281: 5277: 5275: 5272: 5267: 5263: 5256: 5248: 5244: 5240: 5236: 5232: 5231: 5230: 5226: 5222: 5215: 5208: 5204: 5200: 5196: 5191: 5190: 5187: 5183: 5179: 5174: 5170: 5167: 5166: 5165: 5161: 5157: 5153: 5148: 5143: 5139: 5135: 5131: 5127: 5123: 5119: 5116: 5115: 5114: 5111: 5109: 5108: 5102: 5100: 5099: 5089: 5079: 5072: 5071: 5064: 5060: 5056: 5052: 5051: 5050: 5046: 5043: 5036: 5030: 5025: 5016: 5012: 5008: 5007: 5006: 5002: 4998: 4994: 4990: 4989: 4988: 4987: 4983: 4980: 4973: 4965: 4963: 4958: 4948: 4938: 4929: 4922: 4918: 4914: 4910: 4907: 4906: 4902: 4899: 4898: 4891: 4887: 4883: 4878: 4877: 4876: 4868: 4866: 4855: 4853: 4849: 4847: 4844: 4841: 4840: 4839: 4835: 4831: 4827: 4822: 4818: 4812: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4804: 4796: 4794: 4781: 4777: 4775: 4768: 4761: 4757: 4753: 4748: 4743: 4736: 4732: 4731:consolidation 4725: 4718: 4711: 4700: 4697: 4695: 4692: 4689: 4686: 4684: 4681: 4679: 4676: 4673: 4670: 4669: 4668: 4662: 4658: 4654: 4650: 4646: 4640: 4635: 4631: 4627: 4614: 4610: 4609:in my sandbox 4604: 4599: 4598: 4597: 4594: 4587: 4577: 4565: 4564: 4563: 4559: 4555: 4554:Shhhnotsoloud 4549: 4544: 4543: 4542: 4541: 4536: 4532: 4528: 4517: 4504: 4503:See also-text 4494: 4488: 4483: 4473: 4467: 4462: 4452: 4446: 4441: 4431: 4425: 4420: 4410: 4404: 4399: 4389: 4383: 4382: 4381: 4374: 4370: 4367: 4362: 4360: 4355: 4351: 4347: 4339: 4334: 4333: 4332: 4331: 4323: 4321: 4307: 4300: 4296: 4289: 4277: 4275: 4274: 4270: 4269: 4263: 4255: 4253: 4252: 4248: 4244: 4240: 4239:Deacon Vorbis 4236: 4228: 4226: 4225: 4221: 4217: 4216:Shhhnotsoloud 4213: 4201: 4197: 4195: 4194: 4190: 4186: 4185:Shhhnotsoloud 4182: 4170: 4166: 4160: 4155: 4151: 4147: 4138: 4134:regex search 4127: 4120: 4113: 4112:other uses of 4106: 4105: 4104: 4099: 4095: 4091: 4083: 4079: 4075: 4073: 4069: 4065: 4064:Shhhnotsoloud 4061: 4060: 4059: 4058: 4055: 4050: 4048: 4037: 4027: 4000: 3999: 3994: 3990: 3988: 3983: 3982: 3980: 3976: 3974: 3969: 3968: 3967: 3966: 3962: 3946: 3945: 3944: 3939: 3929: 3919: 3918:other uses of 3908: 3906: 3905: 3901: 3897: 3893: 3886: 3882: 3878: 3876: 3875: 3872: 3868: 3861: 3854: 3853: 3850: 3846: 3842: 3838: 3834: 3830: 3829: 3826: 3822: 3818: 3814: 3807: 3801: 3797: 3793: 3792:Shhhnotsoloud 3789: 3788: 3787: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3781: 3773: 3769: 3768:Turkey (bird) 3764: 3761: 3756: 3754: 3750: 3746: 3744: 3739: 3735: 3731: 3725: 3723: 3714: 3710: 3709:Turkey (bird) 3705: 3702: 3697: 3695: 3690: 3686: 3682: 3678: 3674: 3670: 3664: 3662: 3654: 3648: 3644: 3640: 3639:Shhhnotsoloud 3636: 3635: 3634: 3631: 3627: 3620: 3613: 3612: 3611: 3610: 3607: 3596: 3586: 3579: 3573: 3563: 3556: 3553: 3549: 3545: 3541: 3538: 3534: 3533: 3532: 3529: 3527: 3523: 3514: 3512: 3511: 3507: 3503: 3499: 3486: 3476: 3473: 3469: 3464: 3460: 3459: 3458: 3454: 3450: 3446: 3441: 3437: 3431: 3406: 3401: 3400:anti-patterns 3397: 3393: 3389: 3385: 3381: 3380: 3379: 3378: 3377: 3376: 3371: 3368: 3363: 3362: 3361: 3357: 3353: 3346: 3345:SchreiberBike 3341: 3340: 3339: 3338: 3335: 3331: 3327: 3322: 3316: 3307: 3299: 3295: 3290: 3284: 3283: 3282: 3279: 3275: 3271: 3270: 3269: 3266: 3262: 3258: 3257: 3256: 3253: 3245: 3243: 3239: 3235: 3234:spotted angle 3231: 3230: 3229:Caprona agama 3223: 3222: 3221:Caprona alida 3215: 3209: 3205: 3204: 3203: 3202: 3199: 3195: 3191: 3184: 3181: 3180: 3176: 3175: 3170: 3164: 3163: 3162:Caprona alida 3157: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3150: 3149: 3145: 3141: 3139: 3133: 3132: 3131: 3123: 3122: 3113: 3106: 3100: 3097: 3093: 3089: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3079: 3075: 3071: 3065: 3064:SchreiberBike 3060: 3059: 3058: 3055: 3051: 3045: 3041: 3036: 3034: 3031: 3027: 3022: 3018: 3017: 3016:Caprona alida 3011: 3006: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2995: 2993: 2989: 2982: 2978: 2975: 2972: 2968: 2967:SchreiberBike 2960: 2958: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2948:Shhhnotsoloud 2945: 2933: 2929: 2927: 2926: 2922: 2918: 2914: 2906: 2904: 2903: 2899: 2889: 2887: 2883: 2878: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2874: 2867: 2865: 2861: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2853: 2852: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2840: 2836: 2832: 2824: 2822: 2821: 2817: 2813: 2804: 2803: 2799: 2795: 2794: 2785: 2782: 2780: 2779: 2773: 2771: 2770: 2763: 2759: 2755: 2750: 2748: 2744: 2740: 2736: 2731: 2728: 2724: 2720: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2713: 2709: 2705: 2704: 2698: 2697:United States 2689: 2685: 2680: 2675: 2670: 2664: 2661: 2654: 2652: 2647: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2638: 2634: 2630: 2626: 2619: 2615: 2611: 2607: 2603: 2598: 2593: 2589: 2585: 2581: 2576: 2574: 2570: 2566: 2562: 2558: 2550: 2544: 2541: 2534: 2525: 2517: 2511: 2507: 2506: 2505: 2501: 2497: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2489: 2485: 2481: 2474: 2469: 2464: 2459: 2453: 2451: 2450: 2446: 2444:contributions 2440: 2434: 2429:discussion.— 2428: 2424: 2419: 2408: 2407: 2403: 2399: 2395: 2391: 2384: 2372: 2368: 2354: 2350: 2346: 2345:94.21.204.175 2342: 2340: 2336: 2332: 2331:94.21.204.175 2328: 2325: 2321: 2320: 2319: 2316: 2311: 2305: 2301: 2297: 2292: 2288: 2283: 2282: 2280: 2274: 2270: 2266: 2261: 2257: 2252: 2251: 2249: 2245: 2244: 2243: 2239: 2235: 2234:94.21.204.175 2231: 2228: 2224: 2220: 2216: 2212: 2208: 2204: 2200: 2195: 2189: 2185: 2182:, but how is 2181: 2180: 2174: 2170: 2167: 2166: 2165: 2162: 2158: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2148: 2144: 2143:94.21.204.175 2139: 2137: 2135: 2127: 2121: 2120: 2119: 2116: 2112: 2111: 2105: 2104: 2098: 2093: 2089: 2085: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2074: 2070: 2069:94.21.204.175 2066: 2062: 2058: 2053: 2046: 2040: 2037: 2035: 2034: 2028: 2026: 2025: 2018: 2016: 2013: 2012: 2007: 2003: 2002: 2001: 2000: 1997: 1994: 1992: 1991: 1985: 1983: 1982: 1972: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1961: 1960: 1956:. Thoughts? — 1955: 1952:respectfully 1951: 1943: 1937: 1936: 1932: 1928: 1924: 1920: 1916: 1912: 1901: 1897: 1887: 1883: 1879: 1872: 1862: 1852: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1840: 1838: 1828: 1818: 1811: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1784: 1778: 1773: 1772:Ali Pirhayati 1768: 1767: 1766: 1762: 1758: 1757:Ali Pirhayati 1754: 1750: 1747:similar? 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