600:
ultimately to P4O10 or things like that, which then can be sulfided (by P4S10) and chlorinated. The other way to address the issue is, of course, is biochemistry: organisms have been stuck with these oxyanions for billions of years. A quick glance shows the pyruvate enol phosphates, i.e., a phosphate ester, can be reduced to phosphinic acid level. doi 10.1146/annurev.biochem.78.091707.100215. You never get PH3 or element but organophosphorus compounds. On the silicate front, industry has long wishes to avoid SiO2 down to Si then back up to SiMe4-xClx, but I digress.--
875:
writing project because you will be forced to rely on old-timey literature and junky online stuff. Almost all the good on-line content is behind a paywall or is inside of major textbooks and encyclopedias. Some major works are online as pdf's, possibly illegally. March's
Organic Chem is one example, Greenwood and Earnshaw for Inorganic (especially Main Group) is another. The major review journals (Chem Soc Rev, Angew, Chem Rev) have some open-access content. Org Syn is open access, but it does not provide sufficient context for an overview. --
31:
249:). Dozens or hundreds of chem articles cite this website. Maybe someone can comment on their status as an RS. Like Sigma-Aldrich or other vendors, their physical data are probably acceptable. But they dress up their articles with a narrative, which is not verifiable and is not reviewed in any way. Their narratives are window dressing for the products that they are selling.--
758:
replaceable for important facts. Otherwise if the referenced text is garbage based on a garbage publication, then it should be removed altogether. So we should examine each use. {However I have deleted a chemical referenced to
Journal of Nanomaterials from an article I wrote (as substance not well proved to exist) }.
1117:
sourcing. Similarly, I've cited Chem Rev articles when I cannot access them, but only when they are unambiguously relevant (name reactions, for instance). I have no access to pay-walled content beyond the
Knowledge Library, nor any SciFinder etc. I feel that I have become very good at finding sources
757:
I think it would be a mistake to just remove the citations. Just because some indexer thinks a journal is lower quality, does not mean that an article in it is low quality. We'll probably need to replace by another reference if we take them out. I see usage in some broad topics that would easily be
599:
Well, phosphate, sulfate, and orthosilicate are indeed pretty dead. A look at the "bible" (Greenwood and
Earnshaw) does not help much. In synthetic chemistry, it seems that the negative charge needs to be dealt with before anything happens. Maybe protonation sets the scene for condensation leading
458:
Ok, maybe we transition to a related topic. If one does not have access to basic textbooks, it is next to impossible to edit technical content. "Crystal field excitation" is not a term encountered very often. Yes, one can imagine what it is, but the phrase is not indexed in usual textbooks (Wiberg,
1161:
Our project page is a good place for it. The list is a bit out of scope for a manual of style. Reacting to
Project Osprey's A references B, you must be very careful. You could just reference A. But in a significant number of cases I have found that the A paper misrepresents B, so it is best to make
874:
It is nearly impossible to write an overview of a topic without good sources. It can also be a disservice because the topic might be misrepresented. If one does not have access to the major works in an area, ask for help, pray that Google books gives you a glimpse to the good stuff, or forget the
508:
Certainly doubt it merits its own page, especially under the current name - and especially one that introduces it as "a synthetic element", and says things like "ninovium's existence as a valid element remains unsubstantiated, and its characteristics remain uncertain" - which makes me wonder if the
1112:
I am guilty of sometimes citing refs that I cannot access. The usual scenario is that I'm reading paper 'A' and it states a fact with a reference back to paper 'B', but I cannot access paper 'B', If I can't find another option then sometimes I just accept the fact stated by 'A' and cite 'B' as the
205:
That's a good point. Editors here who write chemistry articles should have access to paywalled sources either through their institution or the
Knowledge Library, for example. Provided we summarise such sources accurately, it doesn't matter that the average reader can't themselves easily read the
548:
core (i.e. other than hydrolysis or transesterification)? I can't find any, beyond perhaps carbothermal reduction to elemental P. I find that surprising - it would make it the only functional group I can think of that cannot be converted into different functional group.
423:
has many books that are clearly PD owing to age but also quite a few I would consider to be copvio as too recent. Anyway, those linked from cites in our articles has been trimmed down to the extent where I'm giving up on the final ones.
220:
Chemistry LibreTexts is a tricky one out of these; the attribution is terrible, but I have included them as references on some topics because I have had trouble finding online sources that define in basic terms specific concepts like
116:'s 1972 book "Ignition" with a link to a scanned copy as a .pdf. I think we need to go through all 70 instances and either remove the cite or, if the cite itself is valid, remove the links to the copyvio. Comments?
1086:
I don't imagine it would be different from any other situation where we link to paywalled articles. I did some digging and found a discussion on the
External Links noticeboard that is tangentially related:
1147:(which I put on our project page). Should we put this list in our Manual of Style (would it be ignored there?), should we leave it on the project page, should we do something else with this list? --
347:
Thanks for removing the direct
Sciencemadness.org cites. The insource search at the top of this thread is still giving 62 hits which are copyvios IMO. I'll start trying to replace them, and
263:
I support not using
American Elements for "use" verification, as we cannot see where their info came from, and when trying to confirm, perhaps only one researcher tried that application.
980:. Fortunately, many good review articles are available via University subscriptions to journals, which is how some of our student editors will gain access. Others can reach JSTOR via
1065:
742:
the above journals (and others) have been "delisted" from Web of
Science. So, I started to remove some of these references from chemistry articles. Are my removals a good idea?--
505:
It is probably better merged with Ninov's article, since the fraud has become a pretty defining event of his career; for oganesson, it would be a history subsection at most.
145:
I've changed the Tetrafluorohydrazine citation to point to the Google Books preview rather than Sciencemadness.org. I can probably do the same with a lot of these links.
797:
183:
Support replacing those links. A number of dubious sources are cited in our articles, so it is a good idea to root them out. Educational sites include Khan Academy (
1088:
72:
67:
59:
459:
Cotton&Wilk, Shriver). My somewhat obnoxious point is that if one is struggling to find a source for a topic, maybe that topic does not merit an article. --
809:
191:) seem to present legitimate information, but they probably are not reliable sources. The overarching problem is that most good content sits behind paywalls.--
964:. I've added that link to our article about him and would encourage anyone to use this to update relevant topics. In a related move, IUPAC have licensed their
1197:
401:
There are also several US government publications which are in the public domain. Though I am not sure about LANL publications: are they government or not?
1122:
for months and I'm still not done with it. What I will say is that I think it's better then when started. There are lots of pages like that, where if not
828:
1060:
Its an ACS magazine, hence that problem. However, if you know the URL (from their website) that you want, you can often find it archived at the
1196:
has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the
108:. More worryingly, it seems that many of the instances of links to that website are to books and articles which are copyright. For example,
666:
47:
17:
1166:
5th ed, which can also be found to read on archive.org. It is 14 years old. If this is entirely legal, then it would be worth a link too.
706:
is a huge operation, occasionally putting out some controversial journals. Here are some that appear to apply to the Chemistry project:
1072:
I leave to the lawyers: safest would be to use the information you find to write your Knowledge entry and cite it but not link it.
296:
is another site that shows up infrequently and is written largely by two people with scientific backgrounds but no oversight.
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as a source for our Knowledge article, although Sciencemadness itself usually does not cite any sources and is clearly not
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which may be of interest. Is the primary use of the term nonmetal for elements in the periodic table, see discussions in
514:
96:
shows that we currently have 70 cases where Sciencemadness.org has been used in chemistry articles. Some uses (e.g. in
1118:
by other means, but it can still be a challenge to write a new overview. Mostly it's just very slow, I've working on
644:
There is a dispute between me and the article creator about how broad the categories for this article should be. See
621:
might be something to explore as well. Hopefully there are some nice mechanistic studies on the enzyme reaction. ā
1200:. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article.
1040:
was easier to access beyond the first "free article"; their online archives are extensive. Could be a proposal for
884:
618:
544:
Sorry for the continuing questions in this area. Are there any reactions of organophosphates that can change the PO
38:
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All true. One recent welcome trend is for authors of "the good stuff" to make it open access. A recent example is
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Knowledge:External_links/Noticeboard/Archive_25#Potential license laundering through ghostarchive.org
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sources. We must try to write quality articles and that often means citing specialist publications.
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166:. I was intending to do similar but was waiting a bit to see if anyone had reasons not to do that.
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sure what it says before using it as a reference. Also thanks to Smokefoot for recommending
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Good idea, which I see you have begun to do. We just need to ensure that no-one adds a
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A plea for help with the short list of good (and legal) open source reference works
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524:, while integrating the salvageable parts of the existing article into Ninov's?
327:
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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I have now replaced or removed all but one reference to Sciencemadness.org.
241:
In the spirit of gaining some consensus on on-line sources, another one is
988:
don't seem to provide better access via that or other similar mechanism.
844:
638:
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is arguing that this is the case, with some other additions. Editors
790:
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509:
page's author understands that the claimed "ninovium" necessarily
1002:
Maybe we should assemble a list with links on our project page?--
277:
Contents from American Elements may contain original research. --
101:
965:
25:
972:
to include their definitions unchanged into articles such as
912:, (at 193 Mb) which also has several other useful textbooks.
513:
oganesson. The whole incident could warrant something like
482:
article. I think this article should either be merged with
293:
189:
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Organic_Chemistry
419:
says that's where those documents originally came from.
93:
722:
Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine
185:
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/organic-chemistry
1113:source. I've never been certain about this type of
646:Talk:Fiveling#Intractable dispute over categories
373:is not a copyvio, as works are in public domain.
710:Advances in Materials Science and Engineering
8:
960:freely available and even downloadable at
800:may be of interest to the community here.
725:Journal of Environmental and Public Health
1164:Shriver & Atkin's Inorganic Chemistry
734:Oxidative Medicine and Cellular Longevity
855:have questioned the scientific accuracy.
821:Talk:Nonmetal#RfC_on_meaning_of_nonmetal
682:did notify me that he is cross-posting.
829:Talk:Nonmetallic compounds and elements
716:Contrast Media & Molecular Imaging
522:oganesson#Unconfirmed discovery claims
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
585:Interesting, and new to me. Thanks --
490:. Could somebody please take a look?
7:
326:Thanks for doing that heavy-lifing!
18:Knowledge talk:WikiProject Chemistry
1020:to a copyvio version of something.
520:I would say redirect "ninovium" to
24:
728:Journal of Healthcare Engineering
515:element 118 falsification scandal
100:, current citation #6) have that
819:There is a RfC on this topic at
247:https://www.americanelements.com
29:
1038:Chemical & Engineering News
968:CC BY-SA 4.0 which has allowed
847:have questioned this, and both
1186:Good article reassessment for
958:Concepts in Physical Chemistry
540:More organophosphate questions
415:I think the LANL ones are OK.
1:
956:making the latest version of
713:Biomed Research International
678:Pro-forma, please note that @
1126:, they can at least be made
984:. My pet peeve is that the
894:is now free-access online.
698:Removing some Hindawi refs?
565:phospha-Fries rearrangement
1225:
815:RfC on meaning of nonmetal
619:Phosphoenolpyruvate mutase
1210:20:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
1176:10:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
1157:22:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
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1030:15:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
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998:14:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
986:American Chemical Society
962:doi:10.1039/9781837674244
944:15:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
922:14:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
904:14:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
885:13:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
865:07:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
810:20:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
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752:04:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
692:02:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
673:22:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
631:05:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
106:reliable by our standards
1068:. How this squares with
772:OK, I undid my edits. --
731:Journal of Nanomaterials
610:23:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
595:23:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
577:22:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
559:21:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
534:18:28, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
500:13:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
469:17:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
434:11:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
411:04:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
397:13:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
387:OK, I'll check as I go.
383:12:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
361:10:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
336:02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
322:01:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
308:23:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
287:15:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
273:00:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
259:22:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
237:16:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
223:crystal field excitation
216:17:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
201:15:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
177:15:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
157:15:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
141:15:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
126:14:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
793:Featured Article review
1064:etc. So, for example,
567:might be of interest?
351:will probably assist.
1036:It would be great if
982:the Knowledge library
349:User talk:Reconrabbit
112:has a citation #3 to
42:of past discussions.
870:Op-Ed: Runnin' blind
869:
110:Tetrafluorohydrazine
704:Hindawi (publisher)
417:Part of the website
98:Copper(I) phosphide
978:Boltzmann constant
88:Sciencemadness.org
1198:reassessment page
892:Organic Chemistry
243:American Elements
187:) and ChemLibre (
167:
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48:current talk page
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1120:organophosphate
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719:Disease Markers
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827:and also at
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702:Apparently
36:This is an
1070:WP:ELNEVER
1018:WP:ELNEVER
974:adsorption
890:McMurry's
802:XOR'easter
569:Fishsicles
526:Fishsicles
79:ArchiveĀ 55
73:ArchiveĀ 54
68:ArchiveĀ 53
60:ArchiveĀ 50
1149:Smokefoot
1066:this one
1004:Smokefoot
966:Gold Book
877:Smokefoot
831:. Editor
774:Smokefoot
744:Smokefoot
602:Smokefoot
488:oganesson
461:Smokefoot
251:Smokefoot
193:Smokefoot
1115:by-proxy
930:and the
910:Openstax
908:Yes, at
639:Fiveling
486:or with
480:ninovium
474:Ninovium
371:pyridine
367:Nicotine
162:Thanks,
131:Support
1128:not bad
857:Ldm1954
853:Ldm1954
841:Ldm1954
684:Ldm1954
651:Laundry
492:ReyHahn
454:Sources
365:Use in
39:archive
1194:Nature
1188:Nature
1098:rabbit
1052:rabbit
1042:WP:TWL
896:DMacks
833:Sandbh
791:Helium
328:DMacks
304:rabbit
233:rabbit
153:rabbit
1202:Z1720
1093:Recon
1047:Recon
654:Pizza
299:Recon
279:Leiem
228:Recon
148:Recon
133:Pygos
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102:wiki
845:YBG
648:. ā
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