626:
P'ent'ay, for instance, could be moved to Pentay, but spelled in the oppening as Penṭay (I can't find the capital P with a dot under it), indicating its spelling. That would perhaps clear up the simple transliteration system, with the problem of ejective "ch" remaining. Perhaps we could leave "ch" as the only symbol with an apostrophe after, except when ṣh (or any other "h") and sh occur, when an apostrophe to indicate pronounciation would be acceptable (I'm growing to like it, after realizing that the word for book could be pronounced "met-shaf"). Also, what do you guys think about the transliteration of መጽሓፍ and መጽሓፈ? Using the Ge'ez transliteration, it would be maṣḥāfa, with simple being matshafa or mats'hafa (with the latter of the two preffered), but the
Amharic and Tigrinya meṣ(i)ḥāfe, simple mets(i)hafe is also often used. The question is really for using as the title of a book (e.g.
740:
Mes'haf). I don't think that using "s" instead of "ts" (whether or not apostrophes are used for "ts") is a good idea, however. From my experience, "ts" is more common than "S" or "s'" for transliterating ጸ and ፀ. I also think it is the best way (ignoring apostrophe use for "ts") to suggest the actual pronounciation for an
English speaker. It's generally the digraph used across many languages to represent a similar sound, actually (compare Hebrew "eretz," Russian "tsar"). —
136:
81:
63:
390:, however, derives from proto-Semitic "ś," and I believe represented just "ś," or "s" and "ś" (perhaps depending on the time period). If we are going to continue to use "ś" (which is necessary unless someone here knows exactly which words in Ge'ez had "š" and which had "s"), then I propose every article that uses this has a super-script note to explain its usage, as it is otherwise confusing to have "ś" represent
32:
414:. I propose we use the proto-Semitic symbol for the letter, "ṣ́." It requires two symbols ("ṣ" and a tick that goes over the letter when parsed), but it get's the accross the letter's origin, difference from "ṣ," yet similarity (on a side note, does anyone know if it was actually pronounced differently when Ge'ez was actually spoken?). —
577:) is an innovation of the modern Ethiopian languages. In Amharic it is the result of palatalization, and in Tigrinya also of labialization. Since the pronunciation of ሰ and ሠ had been merged in all of the modern languages, both ሰ and ሸ may correspond etymologically to any of the four ancestor sounds: *
255:
the exception, the rule, or neither? Some words that could be affected are "Papas/P'ap'as" (Metropolitan), "Pentay/P'ent'ay" (non-Orthodox
Christian), "Timqet/T'imqet" (also perhaps "Timket/T'imket," due to the popularity of using "k" to spell this word, despite it being ejective), "Arba minch'/"Arba
739:
MoS stands for "Manual of Style" (the
Ethiopian one is linked in the title if you want to help out). I'm a bit ambivalent about apostrophes: on one hand they're a bit unneeded if otherwise marked, but they do help disambiguate pronounciation in cases where digraphs can be confused (e.g. Mets'haf or
633:
Another issue is that we will have to work to converting cases where the old complex transliteration system was used to the new one and adding complex transliterations to existing articles. This would probably be done best in coordination with an assessment of articles tagged with the {{WikiProject
246:
The proposed changes to remove ambiguity would be to add apostrophes at the end of the first three to show that they are ejective, and apostrophes for the last four for disambiguation. Because the last four situations are very rare (ts, sh, zh, and ny almost never happen), I'll accept an apostrophe
311:
It's true that apostrophes are not generally used by
Ethiopians, but I think that names that are transcribed in an encyclopedia should be as accurate as possible without harming legibilty by non-specialists. An apostrophe falls under the category of symbols that may be ignored by readers who don't
625:
for instance (Amda Seyon is the most common, but we might want to change "Seyon" to "Siyon" or "Tsiyon," and perhaps "Amda" to "Amde," though the Ge'ez translit would be Amda), could use "Ṣ" to spell the S in Siyon, as the pronounciation is belied without "ts" or some sort of marking on the "s."
617:, e.g., where the first instance of Muhammad (e.g. the bolded one) is spelled Muḥammad (with the dot under the h). This would work in some articles regarding historical figures, historical books, Church terms, etc., where using "h" would be misleading because it's actually pronounced ḥ (e.g.
293:
I would like to see a resolution for the issue of digraphs. I think the most logical thing to do is to use an apostrophe for ejective consonants, and leave the other digraphs ambiguous. As stated earlier, this can be solved with a disambiguating note on the first occurence (e.g.
514:), though they were supposedly distinguished in the early stages of the language. Nevertheless, there is much confusion between the two even in early manuscripts, and I think that even in the "epigraphic documents" (see the quote from Goldenberg's article in my talk page).
612:
It occurred to me that we still have some issues to hammer out for the MoS. It occurred to me that for an article on a name that has contains certain letters, that a semi-complex transliteration be used. I'm talking about using a system similar to what's used on
670:
I am glad to see that the discussion has been revived. I think that the most logical solution for the problem of emphatic consonants and digraphs is to use an apostrophe for emphatic consonants and to leave digraphs ambiguous in the simplified
698:
in Ge`ez) is not a problem, since the apostrophe seperates the "s" and the "h" (and thus it won't be read as መሻፍ), but in other cases the ambiguity is inevitable. The only solution I can see is to add a note on the first occurrence, e.g.:
634:
Ethiopia}} template. I'll soon work out the assessment details so that assessors can mark which articles need transliteration (or if you guys want to help out with assessing, then the transliteration could be done in conjunction). —
247:
separating the two to disambiguate the situation as an alternative. I.e. either system can be used in cases like Yeshaq. (IPA /jɨshak'/ or /jɨsħak'/ - i.e., not /jɨʃak'/). For the first three, I think that such disambiguation in the
260:
It'd be hard to google for this, but my guess is that
Ethiopians rarely use apostrophes for the ejectives and that apostrophes haven't caught on among the community of non-Ethiopians writing about Ethiopia. In Oromo, /p'/ is
722:
transliteration schemes? (I'd support this; it would make the two resemble each other more, which is something we should be striving for.) Also I agree that "s'" has advantages over "ts'". (BTW, what's "MoS"?) --
676:
As for ጸ and ፀ, I think that « s' » is better than « ts' ». I believe it is phonetically more accurate, and also saves us from one more digraph. I have noticed that in Seleda
Magazine, they use a captial "S" (e.g.
783:
I've lost track, folks. Are we ready to convert existing articles to the simple and complex standards? (I'm too busy these days to do any serious editing, but I could do this kind of mechanical stuff.) —
152:
366:
The other issue we have to work out is Ge'ez consonants (the vowels are the same except first order vowel should be "a"). There aren't really any differences except for the ambiguity with
718:
I agree with yhever on apostrophes, but I'm a little confused about whether we're talking about the complex or simple transliteration. Are we considering apostrophes for the ejectives in
810:
805:
815:
184:
The discussion below has gotten ridiculously long, so I'm restarting the discussion at the top for simplicity. The only remaining issues are a
97:
17:
88:
68:
593:. In other words, ሸ should not be confused with any of the Proto-Semitic consonants, since it is a sound that was split from ሰ.
552:
in the traditional pronunciation, but they are different etymologically. ጸ corresponds both to Arabic ص and ظ (= Proto-Semitic *
277:
is the exception and that the informal (simple) "convention" is not to distinguish ejective from non-ejective for , , and . —
43:
501:, though I haven't noticed until now that similar questions were also raised here. I will try to sum up the main issues:
451:
334:
791:
770:
730:
711:
664:
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510:
Regarding ሰ ፡ እሳት and ሠ ፡ ንጉሥ, these two sibilants are pronounced the same in the traditional pronunciation (i.e.
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358:
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762:
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I have responded to ዮም's questions regarding the phonolgical and etymological values of the sibilants in
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642:
462:
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251:
transliteration system may be too much. Perhaps someone could see how often it's actually used; i.e. is
96:
on
Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
382:
has traditionally been transliterated as "ś" to show that it represents both "š" and "s," and "s" for
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727:
281:
195:
transliteration system. The simple consonant transliteration system ambiguities are as follows (per
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329:, I prefer the latter (since it is more accurate, and in general use with Spanish names; e.g.
606:
498:
166:
135:
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406:, it's misleading to use "ḍ" for its transliteration just because it's cognate with Arabic
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273:, so there's no precedent there for using apostrophes. I guess I'd conclude that
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454:), the situation is different. Can you explain it to us, please, Yhever? —
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548:ፀ ፡ ፀሐይ and ጸ ፡ ጸሎት are similar in that matter; both are pronounced as
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560:), whereas ፀ corresponds to Arabic ض (= Proto-Semitic *
535:, whereas the ሠ ፡ ንጉሥ corresponds to Proto-Semitic *
92:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
42:does not require a rating on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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523:The ሰ ፡ እሳት corresponds to Proto-Semitic *
57:
630:, Mats'hafa Birhan? Mats'hafa Mistir?).
18:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Ethiopia
539:. I gave some examples in my talk page.
59:
7:
450:Never mind, according to yhever (at
341:) -- but I am willing to settle for
106:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ethiopia
31:
29:
410:, as it sounds exactly the same as
48:It is of interest to the following
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86:This page is within the scope of
690:Now, as for the digraphs issue,
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79:
61:
30:
811:NA-importance Ethiopia articles
806:Project-Class Ethiopia articles
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816:WikiProject Ethiopia articles
109:Template:WikiProject Ethiopia
100:and see a list of open tasks.
398:that represented the actual
792:00:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
771:16:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
731:14:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
712:21:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
665:02:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
452:Talk:Proto-Semitic_language
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359:18:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
598:02:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
485:21:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
445:20:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
354:So, what's your opinion?
285:03:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
74:
56:
394:, while it is actually
189:transliteration system
298:-- in Amharic: ይስሐቅ
779:Status of proposals?
312:know what they mean.
89:WikiProject Ethiopia
44:content assessment
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573:Now the sound ሸ (
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378:(aka Ḍäppä).
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368:shin (letter)
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224:: /s'/, /ts/
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50:WikiProjects
40:project page
39:
242:: /ɲ/, /ny/
236:: /ʒ/, /zh/
230:: /ʃ/, /sh/
218:: /ʧ/, /ʧ'/
212:: /t/, /t'/
206:: /p/, /p'/
800:Categories
685:for ድምጻዊ).
681:for መጽሐፍ,
623:Amda Seyon
265:, /t'/ is
499:talk page
256:minch'."
153:Archive 1
767:Ethiopia
763:contribs
679:meSihaff
661:Ethiopia
657:contribs
615:Muhammad
481:Ethiopia
477:contribs
441:Ethiopia
437:contribs
199:below):
191:, and a
141:Archives
103:Ethiopia
94:Ethiopia
69:Ethiopia
705:yis-haq
692:mes'haf
683:dimSawi
339:Isleños
331:El Niño
321:As for
300:Yis-hāq
789:(talk)
728:(talk)
709:yhever
701:yishaq
619:Bahrey
595:yhever
497:in my
374:, and
356:yhever
335:Mañana
296:Yishaq
282:(talk)
275:Silt'e
253:Silt'e
249:simple
46:scale.
786:MikeG
750:(Yom)
725:MikeG
694:(or:
644:(Yom)
556:and *
531:and *
495:Ge`ez
464:(Yom)
424:(Yom)
412:ṣaday
404:ḍappa
400:sound
376:Ḍappa
279:MikeG
197:MikeG
187:Ge'ez
38:This
16:<
757:Talk
720:both
651:Talk
589:or *
471:Talk
431:Talk
392:shin
380:Shin
325:and
707:).
621:).
607:MoS
585:, *
581:, *
527:, *
408:Ḍād
396:śat
388:Śat
384:śat
372:Śat
802::
765:•
760:•
754:|
746:|
743:ዮም
659:•
654:•
648:|
640:|
637:ዮም
564:).
562:ṣ́
479:•
474:•
468:|
460:|
457:ዮም
439:•
434:•
428:|
420:|
417:ዮም
386:.
370:,
343:ny
337:,
333:,
323:ny
302:).
263:ph
240:ny
234:zh
228:sh
222:ts
216:ch
591:ṯ
587:ś
583:š
579:s
575:š
558:ṱ
554:ṣ
550:ṣ
537:ś
533:ṯ
529:š
525:s
512:s
345:.
327:ñ
271:c
267:x
210:t
204:p
52::
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