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classifications in
English language sources. For example, cyclingnews lists the results on a daily basis but does not appear to give any prose coverage in its articles to the progress of the category standings. A survey of news archives doesn't come up with much coverage at all for the various categories (except for Most Combative, but the coverage there tends to focus on who won it in a stage, not the overall leadership). It seems clear to me that independent sources don't think these categories are significant. So I think it is open to - and preferable for (in the interests of balance) - the article to not list the stage-to-stage category leaders.
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show that giving more prominence to the Youth category than to
Azzurri d'Italia is anything other than OR. I think you misunderstood my comments about improving upon an FA: I was not suggesting (at this stage, anyway) editing the 2009 Giro article, but saying that the 2010 Giro article to be submitted for review could be an improvement on its predecessor, by, for example, a more thorough treatment of all the categories. Additionally, submitting it for review with the more complete category history chart in place would invite editors and reviewers to comment on it's appropriateness, thus acheiving the 3O we have both said is desirable.
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quite clear that his stint as the points classification leader is more significant – I can even cite intent on Farrar's part to finish the Giro if he had held the jersey (and yeah, that's a big part of it) a little longer. You speak of my editing out the table as though it were irrevocable, which I find a bit puzzling. I took it out because it had been eight or nine days since we had had any discussion here. I'm certainly the only one regularly editing older Giro articles, and I thought I was the only one working on this one at the time (and, once again,
2024:, and will probably show (didn't check but I believe you) that Agnoli wore the white jersey. But we show the leadership progress in a table, and if somebody wants to verify the table, do you want them to visit all 84 links to check where the information is? The sources are in the article, but not next to the table, so how would a reader know which source was used for this? I think it is just service to our readers, to add one extra source to this table, so it is clear where the information comes from.--
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breakdown – the GA on the 2007 and 2008 races and the FA on the 2009 race give these awards the correct weight. If you're talking about the Trofeo Fast Team, you're being obtuse. Every article we have on every stage race keeps track of the teams classification. Do I necessarily think that in particular is a good idea? Not really, but I'd include it out of convention. Obviously, this article is not (yet) anywhere close to good enough in quality for a GA review or even a Peer review, but perhaps a
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identifiable for the points is that the rider with most points on a particular day is always the stage winner. I don't want to break the convention of BRD, despite constant invitations to edit-war. Although Farrar and his entourage might not have been particularly bothered about having led the
Combativity, it seemed that the tactics of the likes of Flens and Pineau were influenced by these prizes: can SaxoBank's excitement about having led the Fast Team for a few days be proven?
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1142:(or undue lack of weight, in this case) in the 2007–2009 articles. I do disagree about FA. They're pretty much a gold standard as far as what we do here. Sure, minor stylistic improvements can be made, and certainly if new information on the topic breaks the article needs to be updated, but that's really about it. Substantive edits to a FA? I don't see them happening, unless the articles is in such a shape that it would fail a
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I highly, highly doubt anyone would disbelieve or challenge the article because it didn't have notations by visual aids. I passionately hate this assertion that we apparently write articles we don't expect anyone to read (else, why would it be so necessary to source the table? The sources are present when the facts, which the table is meant to
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1931:, including contentious material about living persons, and for all direct quotations." (emphasis in original) I contend that the material present in the two tables is not likely to be challenged, particularly (but not only) considering that articles are used as references in the prose of the article that support everything these tables show.
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is far more objective than the TdF equivalent. The info is on the same table as pink/red/green/white jerseys on the official site: the
Gazzetta does not consider it minutiae or trivia. I have seen at least the intermediate sprints (TV) competition referred to on live text commentary on cyclingnews. --
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Call it a generalized resistance to change, for better or worse. We've never had to do it this way. It's never been considered necessary, even in articles reviewed to GA and FA status. Do I expect the "reader" (tell me we're not writing and reviewing articles no one is apparently expected to read) to
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article. Reviewers thought the section was incomplete without all points included, and didn't want it to scroll for ages. I did not *just* do anything, by the way, that section has been that way for months. So can no article ever have a collapsible section, then? You have hands down the strangest GA
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Nothing is sourced only in another article. Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant that some text which the table illustrates occurs on the other articles. The minutiae of who wears which jersey when for 21 straight days is really not something that this article can comfortably handle in prose (which
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I agree with
Sandman888 that these tables should be sourced, but I think one source per table should be enough. If anybody wants to check if the distance reported for stage 12 is correct, they can do it by following the link and checking the distance. In fact, I just did, and the source reports that
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You know what, I think I'm actually going to dispute that these need copious sourcing. Only contentious facts must be sourced to the gills each and every single time they appear in an article. There's nothing contentious in either of these tables, and adequate sourcing exists in the article already.
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I'd rather not simply revert your deletion: that is simply editwarring. But I'm disappointed that you delete when the discussion is so clearly unresolved. You have still provided nothing to justify treating Fast Team differently from Super Team, nor a RS, as opposed to the existence of a shirt, to
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My point precisely: by putting it forward for GA without the full progress table, you are reducing, virtually eliminating, the chance of getting a third opinion. Just because an articvle has been promoted to FA does not mean that it cannot be improved upon, nor that it was free of OR about relative
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It needs to be verifiable so those that are referenced to the stage recap pages needs to go into the appropiate table. That is a no-brainer. Regarding those who were used in prose, I believe it should be as clear as possible what is sourcing what, so yes, they should be repeated. Regarding text, it
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Yeah, I guess I did miss your point a little. If you want to keep throwing OR at me, I'll respond to that with N. Do Farrar and his managers/sponsors care that he was the leader of the combativity classification for a day? Do any fans? Do they know? Did they even know at the time? By contrast, it's
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I won't revert while you are in the midst of a large edit, but you have no consensus for the removal of this. It is unfortunate that no-one else contributed to this discussion, but many editors contributed to the table. If your intention is to submit the article for review, then let the reviewers
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Once it is established that we are willing to track non-jersey classifications (the fast team category), what grounds are there to include some and exclude others? Nothing incomprehensible about the combativity section: points are earned at intermediate sprints, hill tops and stage finishes, which
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still a wiki. No one contributed to any discussion about the table other than you and I – that's why I (more than a week ago) suggested a WP:3O. There's no consensus either way. I don't believe in 'tacit' consensus by continued existence and updating. People who update tables are mostly people who
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What jersey is awarded to the leader of the Azzuri d'Italia classification? That's the distinction. There's, I dunno, cultural significance to the jersey awards. The ones that hardly anyone is familiar with don't have that significance. Again, not arguing to be completely mum on these awards, just
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Something we really want to see on GT articles from here on? I'd rather not have this, partly because it is such a misnomer. The climb to the
Foscagno is only about 200m, as the route only drops by c.100m from the Eira, which itself is only a 400m climb from the town. At best, the title for the
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To suggest that one non-jersey classification is more important than others, by choosing to include one and not others, is tantamount to OR. If it had turned out that I was the only one with any interest in updating these fields, I would have conceded, but after setting it up, I never updated it
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If stage lengths listed were incorrect (sources change constantly before an event is run, as likely the plans for the stages themselves also change. I thought I had them all correct, but perhaps not), that's a distinct issue. I don't understand why , , and earlier in the article are so woefully
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Well, the point is that several cyclists who would have been considered overall contenders dropped out. Do you suggest an alternate phrasing? I guess "several cyclists who would have been considered overall contenders" is the most technically accurate phrasing, but it's not at all concise, and I
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There is not a daily prize for the combativity award, but there is a daily table with points gained each day published by the race organisers. That would be equally true for the Young riders classification and the mountains category, and the only reason that there is a daily prize that would be
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only. I think the best way to determine whether the additional categories warrant equivalent coverage - eg stage-by-stage classifications - is to survey the extent to which independent reliable sources cover the additional categories on a stage-by-stage basis. I see very little coverage of these
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We've got a route announced, but there are a fair amount of redlinks in the place names used by RCS. I don't know much about
Italian geography, so if anyone knows of a location close to or that includes the (possibly quite specific) place names used by the race, please pipe to an article we have
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near them? Actually, it wouldn't be sequential numbers, since there are citations for each stage in the "race overview" section. That's the regular text size in the leadership table that's standard on all race articles. I wouldn't be sure how to change it, and what's exactly the problem with it
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Not really digging this. It seems to stretch into the realm of minutiae, if not trivia. There is legitimate encyclopedic significance to who was awarded the jerseys each day, but the daily leaders of the incomprehensible "combativity" classification? Not so much. Including the traditional teams
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concentrate on this page much while the Giro was being run, as the level of activity was much too high. I could easily have removed the table several times. And I don't suggest that any non-jersey classifications are more important than any others. I don't want any of them to have a day-by-day
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I don't think there are any policy reasons mandating exclusion or inclusion of this material. It is just a matter of judgement about where the emphasis of the article should be. Those matters of judgement are best determined by community consensus. Thus what I am about to say is my
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That would be fine. My point has been that we should use the same names used by the race itself, except in the case of a town name in a foreign language when there's a more commonly accepted name in
English (i.e. "Turin" instead of "Torino" for last year's race).
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the distance is 206 km, while the article says 191 km, so this shows the importance of the sourcing. (Somebody should check the rest.) The classification leadership table also needs a source, so I added one, such that
Sandman888 (and other readers) can check if
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No extra special reason. Amsterdam submitted a proposal to RCS Sport to host the Giro, since they wanted to, and RCS Sport said yes. Washington, DC is currently trying to do likewise, which would obviously be an even more spectacular
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table would have to be "highest altitude passes". They are by no means sprints: sometimes leadership is a matter of whose turn it was to pull on the break, sometimes it is a rider out alone, on one occasion a time trial. Opinions?
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To answer your edit summary, sure, I'll still go for a 3O. 's what we have diffs for (or maybe you'll put the table back, I dunno). And I'm not sure where you're getting OR from. If anything, I've given the non-jersey awards
1677:"Do not emphasize nationality without good reason" and sport articles gladly violate that, emphasising nationality. But that's just one thing, more importantly "The name of a flag's country (or province, etc.) should appear
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Well, I'm not going to edit an infobox without input from the
Project. And, I still don't see where flags don't have nation names with them. Unless you want "Ivan Basso (Italy)" strongly ahead of "Ivan Basso (ITA)" and so
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are quite clear. Which bit of "(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation" do you not understand? There is no mention there of
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in the Tour de France (a very easy mistake to make). There's no "daily winner" for a combativity award in the Giro. The Giro's combativity classification is points-based, not votes-based like the Tour's award.
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Not my image. I'm not wild about including it in the article at all, but I kept it in since someone added it months ago before my wide-scale revision. I'm not that good at manipulating images anyway.
791:(bottom of the page), you will find the redirects from the ski resort. And once the article is created the links will still follow the ski resort, and not the commune as it currently does in the
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is the whole reason why we have the stages articles). I'm also not using the stage articles as a reference - the references are cyclingnews articles. Perhaps too much use of the word "article"
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I don't think piping the place names is the best way to go. I think we should instead create redirects, or preferably create the articles. As an example of this we have the ski resort
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is used on over 4,000 pages, indicating widespread satisfaction (if not explicit consensus) to its usage. Even if I could edit it, I wouldn't without significant discussion.
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check 84 links to verify one fact? Frankly, yes. Why else do we even have them? If the reader actually read the flipping article, he'd find those citations just fine.
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Sorry, yes that is what I meant by the above comment. I've re-read it, I do not know much about the sport tbh, but I can't really find anything to quibble about.
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don't make larger edits to improve articles. That sounds more conceited than I mean it, my only point is that they'd update it if it was there, but they wouldn't
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And further, how the race's website treats the awards has no bearing on what we should do. As you've critiqued to me in the past, we are not a cycling website.
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That's a great argument that we should list who wins these classifications in Verona, and that I agree with. Their daily leaders however are not significant.
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I have now created redirects for the ski resort (Ax-3 Domaines) and the ski area (Plateau de Bonascre), to the commune (Ax-les-Thermes). So that if you check
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1210:. Hop on in if you can help). If I was the only one left, I was going to write the article how I liked it. Obviously I thought wrong about that, though.
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Indifferent. I think it's interesting, but the information will be present in prose in either (eventually) this article or the stage recaps articles.
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Nosleep what did you do in the end? Btw "Points earned in the Giro d'Italia" cannot have a collapsible section as it wont show on mobiles etc.
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Thank you for that clarification. I was trying to find the source that lead me to believe that, but I can't. I must have read it incorrectly.--
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importance of awards about which the previous reviewers were unaware, nor that any other FA for related articles must follow the same formula.
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Quite ridiculous Sandman: by what authority do you outlaw a facility whose use is explained, and therefor surely condoned, if not encouraged,
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So on my overview of the sources I don't think these categories warrant day-to-day coverage, with the possible exception of Most Combative. --
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Curiously, Gazzetta dello Sport actually assigned star values to the difficulties of each stage. Is this something we want to include here?
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If you referenced some of it by wikilinking to another article, then it isn't good enough. Those refs needs to be in this article as well.
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if it wasn't already there. My intention is to get this article to GA and eventually FA, with the FA on last year's race a rough template.
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Ok. I suppose that makes sense. They've thrown the book at him, but he still hasn't been formally stripped of anything from the '09 Giro.
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want 21 consecutive citations by each table? Or would it be 50 citations for the leadership table (the number of cells in the table)?
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Not at all. My only (very, very, very weak) argument for keeping that is convention. I wouldn't at all be bothered if it were to go.
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You present no reason as to why we should treat some categories differently from others, when the race's main web presence does not.
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I just believe that when someone is alleged to have been doped the phrasing is "a doping incident" and not "his doping incident".
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Actually there's very good reason to give nationality. Stage wins and overall finishes in the Giro contribute points to the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Much better, but I don't understand why the rider has to go in between flag and country name, it looks odd.
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insufficient to back up that Agnoli was wearing the white jersey for three stages (to use your example).
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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that the treatment given them in the articles on the past few editions of the race is the correct one.
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once, a variety of editors taking up the task, and thus suggestoing that they consider it worthwhile.
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Why is vague better than specific? Which part of the first phrase do you intend to have replaced?
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Sorry I've been slow, but I couldn't find much in the first read and not in the second either.
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Route and stages table + "Classification leadership" 1st table. Again, avoid small text.
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Where are they not? I'm usually the one who's most adamant about this among my Project.
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was really wearing the white jersey after stages 4 to 6. I checked, he was.--
1927:: " are required by Knowledge's verifiability policy for statements that are
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http://www.universalsports.com/blogs/blog%3Dgiroinsider/postid%3D472386.html
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http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news%2F2009%2Fjun09%2Fjun12news2
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classification is conventional, but push to shove, I could do without it.
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makes the usage totally incomprehensible, but I'll edit it all the same.
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You seem to be confusing the Giro's combativity classification with the
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-awarded-the-velo-dor-in-paris
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So are you done then? Not much to address, which is a good thing :)
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anyway? Sorry if I sound snappish, I really just don't understand.
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http://www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid%3D471704.html
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which is an official guideline, which the help section is not.
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http://www.letour.fr/2009/TDF/COURSE/docs/cp_2009_03_17_us.pdf
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That's baloney. People update whatever's there. I consciously
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Which one? I don't see any conspicuously unsourced material.
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in Ax-les-Thermes, which is a well known mountain finish in
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page is not required, neither is WP:Scroll and this can be
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have an opinion on whether this is an improvement or not.
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sastre-a-giro-for-climbers
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, visit the
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Criteria now updated/clarified per the discussion on
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where you can join the project or contribute to the
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2277:standards of any reviewer I've ever come across.
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1896:So would you have opposed the FA nomination of
2530:This message was posted before February 2018.
217:If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
746:(the commune in which the resort is located).
174:
8:
2272:I was following the example of the FA-class
1639:, flags should be adjacent to country name.
2434:I have just modified 10 external links on
1542:Didn't mean to revert without edit summary
557:
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2052:big a deal. I just don't really like it.
1830:"as he also did in the previous season."
1718:Ruh oh, it introduces more "small text."
1085:. If you feel an edit is necessary, this
764:, it is shown as and linked directly to
602:This article falls within the scope of
559:
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1619:Why does it start in the Netherlands?
664:) to minimize the number of redlinks.
2642:Top-importance Giro d'Italia articles
1929:challenged or likely to be challenged
7:
1689:is, I doubt (ITA) makes more sense.
1423:And I've never been a fan of BRD ;)
841:Minor classifications progress table
500:This article is within the scope of
371:This article is within the scope of
307:
305:
2617:Sports and recreation good articles
1653:Both of above is from the infobox.
324:It is of interest to the following
202:Sports and recreation good articles
23:for discussing improvements to the
2094:File:Girod'Italia2010Amsterdam.jpg
14:
2672:All WikiProject Netherlands pages
2647:Giro d'Italia task force articles
2438:. Please take a moment to review
789:"what links here" for the commune
694:Alex finds herself awake at night
667:Alex finds herself awake at night
626:Knowledge:WikiProject Netherlands
210:. If you can improve it further,
2174:
1882:is hard to read on other media.
1834:
1683:
1272:03:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC) Here's
629:Template:WikiProject Netherlands
589:
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45:Click here to start a new topic.
2637:GA-Class Giro d'Italia articles
2632:Low-importance cycling articles
2490:Corrected formatting/usage for
2484:Corrected formatting/usage for
2478:Corrected formatting/usage for
2472:Corrected formatting/usage for
2466:Corrected formatting/usage for
2460:Corrected formatting/usage for
1711:. And I'm not sure the link to
753:, it is shown as and linked to
742:, it is shown as and linked to
540:This article has been rated as
411:This article has been rated as
2657:High-importance Italy articles
2386:15:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
2363:14:51, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
2345:11:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
2322:07:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
2301:17:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
2267:07:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
198:has been listed as one of the
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2667:GA-Class Netherlands articles
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2004:16:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
1963:07:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
1900:? And, just to be clear, you
1892:22:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
1863:22:22, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
1847:the stats-table is unsourced
1802:22:22, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
1768:16:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
1731:05:42, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
1699:22:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
1663:22:22, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
514:and see a list of open tasks.
433:This article is supported by
391:Knowledge:WikiProject Cycling
385:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
2622:Old requests for peer review
2331:, suggest that you read the
1709:UCI Road World Championships
1647:Try avoiding the small text
713:21:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
686:20:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
394:Template:WikiProject Cycling
2662:All WikiProject Italy pages
2310:in Knowledge's help section
1609:21:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
1590:Talk:2010 Giro d'Italia/GA1
520:Knowledge:WikiProject Italy
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
2688:
2561:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2431:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
2092:images: consider cropping
546:project's importance scale
523:Template:WikiProject Italy
417:project's importance scale
2627:GA-Class cycling articles
2598:21:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
1573:16:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
1537:01:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
1503:00:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
1447:00:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
1419:00:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
1276:that includes the table.
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835:19:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
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658:San Martino di Castrozza
436:Giro d'Italia task force
2652:GA-Class Italy articles
2612:Knowledge good articles
2427:External links modified
2048:But whatever. It's not
732:featured 3 times before
605:WikiProject Netherlands
1792:Notable is fine then.
1459:Biggest climbs section
429:
314:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
726:lately. According to
691:Resolved. Excellent.
656:(like for last year,
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208:good article criteria
100:Neutral point of view
2542:regular verification
1811:"a doping incident"
1274:the most recent diff
632:Netherlands articles
279:Good article nominee
105:No original research
2532:After February 2018
2349:I suggest you read
1923:, occur in prose).
793:2010 Tour de France
755:Plateau de Bonascre
374:WikiProject Cycling
2586:InternetArchiveBot
2537:InternetArchiveBot
2436:2010 Giro d'Italia
2274:2009 Giro d'Italia
2146:I did it for you.
1898:2009 Giro d'Italia
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19:This is the
2378:Jezhotwells
2369:GA criteria
2337:Jezhotwells
2333:GA criteria
2026:EdgeNavidad
1949:EdgeNavidad
1869:stage recap
1739:flagathlete
1586:transcluded
1368:Mkativerata
1320:Mkativerata
623:Netherlands
610:Netherlands
569:Netherlands
260:Peer review
148:free images
31:not a forum
2606:Categories
2593:Report bug
2404:Sandman888
2374:MOS:SCROLL
2355:Sandman888
2351:MOS:SCROLL
2329:Sandman888
2259:Sandman888
2236:Sandman888
2194:Sandman888
2148:Sandman888
2100:Sandman888
1921:illustrate
1884:Sandman888
1855:Sandman888
1794:Sandman888
1723:Sandman888
1691:Sandman888
1655:Sandman888
1637:WP:Mosflag
1601:Sandman888
618:discussion
206:under the
2576:this tool
2569:this tool
2314:Kevin McE
2170:percent.
1650:Example?
1598:Reviewer:
1578:GA Review
1466:Kevin McE
1383:Kevin McE
1177:Kevin McE
1125:Kevin McE
1054:Kevin McE
992:Kevin McE
920:Kevin McE
878:Kevin McE
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2582:Cheers.—
2295:Contribs
2224:Contribs
2169:% -: -->
2160:Coolies.
2131:Contribs
2070:Contribs
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1998:Contribs
1958:Contribs
1762:Contribs
1679:adjacent
1623:opening.
1567:Contribs
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979:Contribs
951:Contribs
908:Contribs
864:Contribs
829:Contribs
316:GA-class
265:Reviewed
220:reassess
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2440:my edit
2396:the MoS
2281:Nosleep
2210:Nosleep
2117:Nosleep
2056:Nosleep
1984:Nosleep
1925:WP:CITE
1748:Nosleep
1630:Infobox
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1399:Nosleep
1342:Nosleep
1312:opinion
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1253:Nosleep
1214:Nosleep
1200:is not
1150:Nosleep
1144:WP:FARC
1098:Nosleep
1075:is not
1017:Nosleep
965:Nosleep
937:Nosleep
894:Nosleep
850:Nosleep
815:Nosleep
797:lil2mas
544:on the
415:on the
388:Cycling
379:cycling
345:Cycling
243:Process
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2400:passed
2392:WP:GAN
1668:forth.
1205:in use
1006:didn't
322:scale.
284:Listed
246:Result
126:Google
1872:pages
1588:from
1080:inuse
1011:WP:3O
662:Siror
651:Route
517:Italy
508:Italy
464:Italy
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2408:talk
2382:talk
2367:The
2359:talk
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2289:Talk
2263:talk
2240:talk
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2198:talk
2180:Done
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1888:talk
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1840:Done
1798:talk
1780:Main
1756:Talk
1727:talk
1695:talk
1659:talk
1635:Per
1614:Lead
1605:talk
1561:Talk
1547:here
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536:High
240:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2550:RfC
2520:to
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176:TWL
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