Talk:Criticism of Islam/Archive 5

3037:

article to just list off all the bad things done in the name of islam is doing a disservice anyone who REALLY wants to know about islam. we all know that there are lunatics in EVERY religion or even ideology in general (whether it be religion, or politics, or activists issues, or hobbyists, or whatever), but these criticism articles have become nothing more than a list of the terrible things that have been done in the name of that ideology and then a few quotes from the religious scriptures that may possibly justify it. i would instead like to see a true criticism of ISLAM and not just a list of the lunatics who do evil in the name of islam (and the same should be done with ALL the criticism articles). we hear everyday that islam is "incompatible with the west" on one hand and on the other that it is "a religion of peace". why, what makes it so controversial, what makes it so "incompatible" with my western way of life; the lunatics...? we have lunatics in our own western world that act on a number of different ideologies. what makes islam so controversial that we should have to "criticize" it in the first place. is it the issue of womens rights in islam, or homosexuality in islam, or infidels in islam, or apostacy in islam, or whatever else? i want to know about what the islamic scriptures say about these things (in a critical light, considering this is a CRITICISM article), not just the lunatics that act out. i dont have the time or effort to learn the quran, and study it and the hadiths; i come to this articleto read and find out very quickly where the religion ACTUALLY stands on these kinds of issues. i want to see what is that gives us reason to even criticize it in the first place. i want to know the TRUTH about the religion and not just the horrors commited by criminals who are acting in the name of it. i think the same should be done with ALL criticism articles; criticism of the actual ideolgy (and maybe a FEW examples of how those beliefs are implemented) and then another article labeled criticism of the folllowers of that ideology. the latter can become a list of the actions done in the name of that ideology, whether they were correct in their actions or just twisting that ideology to suit their cause. but as for this article, i would like to propose that we split it up into two different articles; criticism of islam and criticism of muslims. and the same for ALL other criticism articles. thank you.

3220:@Student7,see ur a Hindu,I get that,u worship idols love them but you fail to understand that the Quran,Torah and Bible are books that helped to liberate other people from the what they perceive to be the false idols of the false mythological gods which you worship,destroying or burning those false idols means nothing to the followers of the book who dont believe in them just like burning holy books means nothing to you but burning a holy book that is the considered which they believe to be the word of god means a sin in thier view,its not idolization,its just respect and love towards revelations of god that liberated from worship of the idols in thier view.You hindus keep talking about how a holocaust has been comitted against you while the truth is opposite,you say hindu population reduced by 80 million,i dont accept or beileve in the source as it appears to be a source recently manufactured to make urself look like the good guys hurt and persecuted by bad guys(muslims),its not going to work that way by suppressing truth and facts unfavorable to you,read these articles,here one hindu called vt rajshekar is quoting from a book of a jewish historian called leon poliakov,the book is aryan myth theory and its said in the book that indias brahminists(high level,high caste hindus) sold the swastika symbol to hitler,guided him in eliminating jews and brainwashed germans with the aryan myth theory that led to holocaust,now what do you have to say about that,here are the links: 743:...and, as an aspect of Islamic law, it speaks directly as an example of Islamic culture; the question of the influence of Islamic tenants on cultural practices is not digital, as the very tenants spring from the same. The borders are subjective, and will not adhere to individual perspective preferences. The question is: do specific or underlying principles of Islam promote or foster an environment that results in arranged marriages? That said, Knowledge (XXG) is not a documentation of truth: it is not for us to 'correct' perceived misconceptions; when in service to the article, contrasting may be appropriate. Independent of any rational, the assertion that an action is the result of Islam and associated critique is on topic; critique need not be well reasoned or insightful to warrant inclusion here- only significant. 2912:, be our guest, but a non-list article should consist of coherent prose. Also, in my opinion, Dawkins is a very poor example of a "critic of religion". I cannot comment on his "brilliance" as a scientist, but his understanding of religion, and therefore his criticism of it, is primitive. Yes, his books have been "well-received", as dumbed down, mass market popular literature, not as serious study of religion. Yes, you may disagree. No, I will not deny that Dawkins is "notable", probably more notable than many much more brilliant critics of religion, merely due to his success with the mass media. My point is, your reply to Student7 isn't appropriate. Sometimes it is entirely called for to remove "referenced information" in article. Namely, in cases where such material is tangential, redundant or of questionable quality. -- 3797:, I thought I'd give my interpretation of the dispute. I think we can properly resolve this issue through a better consideration of the sources. Each event and criticism mentioned on the article should be supported by a reliable source, I think we all agree with that point. With criticisms, this is easy - if the criticism is supported by a reliable source, it stays in the article, no problem. With events, it is slightly more complex. As this is about criticisms of Islam, for an event to be included in the article, the event must be supported by a reliable source, but its use as a criticism of Islam should also be sourced. If the use of an event as a criticism is not supported by a reliable source, it should not be in the article. That is the criteria I suggest you use in determining what is retained and what is removed. 1934:

information provided by this very insightful individual who happens to have experienced the horrors of this religous and corrupt culture firsthand, so her testimony I think is very precious and should be returned and updated to serve justice, she was born muslim although the actions of her people have made her doubt the relevance and even existence of anything divine, and I would have to agree, should I be exposed that drastically to the situations she was, I would convert myself to athiesm, rather accepting the possibility of hell then wanting to share in the tyranny of others who act under a forsaken banner of disguuised goodness, it crusades all over again. This would need a whole new concept or consitution before people stop believing how barbaric this culture is

345:. I think that positive and negative appraisals can and should be mentioned together under the general scope of 'views' or 'perceptions' of Islam. Futhermore, it also allows for us to cover academic views - not necessarily positive or negatuve - which are not mainstream (and would thus not receive coverage in the main articles like Islam) such as Luxenburg's revisionist view of the Qur'an. As it currently stands, the article only focuses on a particular skew in rather linear fashion. Neutralising the title and widening the scope will allow for an article with much more encyclopedic potential. What do you think? 527:

proffers, alternatively, that other articles be created. 'Subjective distaste' was suggested to me in the 'skew in rather linear fashion' assessment, and observation that a compilation focusing on criticism is unbalanced; those interpretations may very well not represent the intent of the authors. In the interest of clarity, the primary substance of my position is that broadening the focus of the article reduces its specific utility by way of dilution, and that the context of this utility (Knowledge (XXG)) allows for and prefers granularity to monolithic subjects as a mater of function.

2091:) 20:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)) so we know who said what. As to the material, keep in mind that this article is not a criticism of Islam. It's a report of criticisms. If Ishaq's Sirah is lacking in your opinion it doesn't discount its relevance to the topic of criticism. If a scholar published a book asserting, for example, that Islam is an unattractive and inferior faith because the prose of the Koran is poorly executed, and therefore lacks credibility, we'd report it here, not as an endorsement but as an encyclopedic entry. - 3955:. The first was a situation in Sudan which contained criticism of the decision of the legal system. This is not relevant in this article in the same way criticism of court decisions in England are not mentioned in criticism of Christianity and court decisions in Israel are not relevant to criticism of Judaism. The second was historical information about the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, I'm not really sure why you thought it was relevant but that information would be appropriate in 1796:. In theory, a sidebar could be created for each religion, consisting simply of the articles in the respective Category. It would be nice to have some consistency across these very similar articles. It just so happens that Islam was the first that had its "criticism of .." articles put into a sidebar. Should the other religions also have a similar sidebar? if so: should those new sidebars be placed into the "Criticism of someRelgion" articles? -- 459:. While some criticisms of Islam are indeed notable, so are other 'views' regarding Islam, whether commonly held or within the field of academia, that deserve mention alongside it. The plus side is that the article title is no longer of a slanted nature, the article structure is no longer linear (i.e. no longer a critique vs. response format), and the article stands a good chance in the long-term in becoming a stable, encyclopedic exposition. 31: 1989:"Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Knowledge (XXG). On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate. See Knowledge (XXG):External links for some guidelines." 1313:"Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Knowledge (XXG). On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate. See Knowledge (XXG):External links for some guidelines." 2931:. That would seem to make his commentary at least as relevant as that of a "scholar" that most readers can't understand without a translator and some background notes explaining cultural differences. Can we at least agree that it would be best to reformat the info as text rather than keeping it as a list or deleting it altogether? And that the items should be examined individually for merit rather than deleted 281:: Although there is criticism of Islam, there is also praise of Islam. Many scholars have stated that Islam teaches tolerance and peace. Others have praised it for the reforms it brought during 7th century Arabia. Still others have defended it from criticism. Thus we should incorporate both views in the article, balancing it. The other alternative would be to create another article called "Praise of Islam". 2343:, which states "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed..." and "burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source..." I will provide you with some time to find sources so that this material can be adequately cited, if possible. 758:

immigrants to the country. Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but this source says nothing about criticism of Islam in relation to these arranged marriages. Therefore its inclusion in this article would be original research. Same with any other source/passage which includes critique of a Muslim or Muslims but itself doesn't link it to criticism of Islam per se. The links are not for us to make.

3641: 2384:

moderated more towards the secondary source approach: it tends to reduce edit wars, and improves the overall quality. What I recommend is this: DocTropic: can you find some secondary source (academic or major news source) that discusses Ali Sina? If so, you should use the secondary source as the source for Ali Sina material in this article. If you

2073:

altered' . Not only this, but a number of Hadith mentioned in the Article have no chain of transmittters whatsoever making the hadith a weak source. So while i do commend on using Hadith material from the well sourced books of Imam Bukhari and Imam muslim, quoting from Ibn Ishaq means one is relying on one of the weakest sources of Islamic history.

3680:

sometimes no services at all (even in embassies which are supposed to be foreign territory - this is observed by every other civilized country but not Islamic ones), and 4) wearing of hijab. But Islam is not responsible? Anyway this belongs in section above. This section was concerning one of several hundred deletions made recently

2987:. Anyone that hasn't been read by anybody and therefore no one was able to quote anything noteworthy from them, has been merely commented out. An editor may wish to use what is there as a guideline to restoration when something interesting that the person has said can be quoted here that would actually help the article. 3581:

there aren't decent Muslims. But it's like "decent Southerners" during the KKK reign. The majority "decent" people would state that they had "Billy Bob" "under control." In reality, though not as intimidated as the Afro-Americans, they were concerned that they, too, would get a brick, or a bullet, through their window.

3710:, Christian extremists persecuting blacks - they frequently were secretive about what they did because they did not have "sufficient" public support. But they did have public support for denying blacks the right to vote, and from being properly educated (among other things). Note that there is a remark about them in 2037:

your appreciation of my page patrolling! I am neither a muslim or someone who possesses anti-islam beliefs, I just want the page to follow WP guidelines. It seems as though I have accidentally become responsible for this site following WP guidelines, and I shall continue to ensure that this page plays by the rules.

492:

succinctly and with brevity under an all inclusive heading than could Alevi, Yazidi, Druze, Ahmadiyya, Bábí, Bahá'í, Berghouata, Ha-Mim, Sunni and Shi'a Islam within a single article; although each of those sects are mentioned within the Islam article, they also have their own feature. So, be bold, create a

3580:

The problem is that nuts interpret the Koran as they see fit and we suspect that the nuts, true to their profession, would select only those phrases that supported whatever screwball thing they wanted to do, like violence. There is no "owner" of Islam that encourages orthodoxy. That doesn't mean that

3563:

assert that Muhammad proclaims a religion of violence, only shrouded by poetry and actions that are otherwise holy. I'll let you guys make that decision for yourself. If you want to edit the Knowledge (XXG) page to reflect this alternate perspective, go ahead do so, but my hand will have no play in

3111:

we hear everyday that islam is "a religion of peace" but we see such ugly actions. as we know there are good people and bad people in ALL religions, and for us to use this article to just list off all the bad things done in the name of islam is doing a disservice anyone who REALLY wants to know about

3056:

Unfortunately, with the lack of structure, which many religions have, has led to violence by some to be tolerated by the general population, so that it is difficult, and maybe impossible, to separate violence or the toleration of violence by Muslims from the religion itself. For the West, it has been

2366:

This is a difficult issue. On the one hand, including material is a good thing, and there is no "notability" requirement for sources (compared with articles, which do have such a requirement). So I can see why DocTropic thinks the material should be included. On the other hand, other "Criticism of

2292:

Incorrect. The text is long established and you have repeatedly deleted it. I have bent over backwards attempting to accomadate you by rewriting perfectly good material. The burden is on you to change consensus and you haven't done so. Note that I didn't insert the text, I restored material that has

1259:

a requirement here on Knowledge (XXG); for example, there are religions that are very small in number of followers that are unknown to many that are not notable to have their own article, never mind criticism. Others may have insignificant criticism that is not worth mentioning (for example, only one

1015:

this article should be called "rebuttals of the criticisms of islam". It doesn't make clear the criticisms and spends most of it's time refuting them...it's like an apologia to reassure muslims, "oh, look at these silly criticisms, see how real our religion is" but it doesn't actually have any of the

773:

There are some things that should be in this article, and this website is not one of them. Besides, who are you kidding? Are Muslims the only religious group who conduct arranged marriages? What about Hindus, or Christians from the Middle East. This is not even a religious issue, its a cultural issue

651:

The article criticizes Islam itself and Moslem's interchangeably. i.e. "The 24-year-rule was introduced in Denmark, whereby a person must be over 24 years old to marry a foreign born individual. This law came into place to prevent arranged marriages, not uncommon among Muslim immigrants to Denmark."

3845:

this is an article CRITICISING islam, therefore it should have more external links that are critical of islam than there are defending it. and the q and a external links are just defending islam also. so that makes 4 sites defending islam and 3 criticising it. that is rediculously bias. i would very

3679:

So, since there is no Caliphate, no Ottoman dynasty, there is no accountability for religious practices by Islamic countries, even though consistent: 1) proselytizing by Christians forbidden; 2) Christians may not erect churches or (sometimes) mend them, 3) Christians may not hold public services or

3468:

Why is criticising a faith 'unfair'? It is only a set of beliefs, it isn't real. Children believe in father christmas and the monsters that live under the bed and in the wardrobe, but that doesn't mean those beliefs should be allowed to flourish without critical debate. And as the chappie above said

2036:

I didn't give any thought to the content of the links I removed. I simply left the top 2 and pruned the rest. If you believe I have removed a link that offers something particularly valuable please feel free to replace it, all I want is to prevent the ludicrous proliferation of links. And thanks for

1960:

Octopus114: The material you recently added ("Self-Censorship around Islam") is probably okay, but can you supply some sources that list two or three of the criticisms as a group? Preferably a secondary source, but even a primary source (critic) that has assembled a list of such criticisms may be

631:

I was reading Hume and I came across a criticism of Islam by Hume. I thought it would be good because Hume was an important and influential critic of revealed religion in general and it gives a taste of what he thought about one revealed religion in particular. He has a sort of two pronged attack:

2528:

Unlike other religions, Christianity (with an exception) has no "sacred objects," per se. People may use a crucifix or a bible, but they are just wood or paper, as the case may be. The exception would be for catholics, the eucharist under either species. But aside from that, it should not really be

2383:

for why secondary sources are better than the critics themselves: it solves all kinds of POV and reliability issues. I think that we need to start applying more uniform standards across the "Criticism" articles. I used to be in favor of "the more material the better" but as time has gone by, I've

2246:

You are misrepresenting my argument, and so your calling my reasoning irrational is a bit funny. It is not the lack of an article that makes this person not notable, rather the lack of an article is the result of or evidence of his not being notable. There's a difference - do you see it? So, again,

1866:

Noleander, ok I'm back for now. It doesnt matter whether other religions have the "criticism of" templates or not (as Doc also pointed out). We're talking about this case. Now we know the COI template should be here. The only issue is the order or whether the main Islam template should go away. For

1097:

This article has a list of critics. This list seems odd: the content seems accurate and useful, but its placement in the article is unusual, and seems to interfere with the article's readability. A handful of historical critics might be okay, but the large list of contemporary critics needs to be

1040:

I was considering starting to research the topic of "defacement of significant public art" as a criticism of Islam (due to prohibition against depiction of humans: Buddhas of Bamyan, Hagia Sophia mosaics, etc). Before I start, I glanced thru the Talk archives, and I do not see any past discussion

963:

The article s*x. That said, just as a matter of reflective principle, not too few subsections of the article are just lists of critics, sorted according to an alleged religious stance the critics. Just a list, no red thread! Instead the criticism should be sorted according to the type of criticism,

526:

Read 'merge' as 'combining it with broader content' -not the command function. The NAME of the article is being addressed within the context of what the associated content should be -this is clear; my above comment is also clear in addressing the proposal of changing the scope of the article, and

419:

Renaming this article would be fundamentally counterproductive. Criticism, and views in general, are not the same thing. Criticism need not be NPOV -our presentation of that Criticism is what must adhere to a NPOV; it is not our position to act as advocates. Not renaming this article is in no

4079:

I'm not sure what the confusion is. Criticism of Islam is criticism of the religion, what happens in Palestine or the other examples you have given are not relevant to the aritlce. It's really not difficult to understand. I'm surprised it wasn't obvious to you that these sections were not suitable

2956:

of Islam, I think critics should be better chosen with an eye to objectivity than Dawkins. IMO, it totally weakens the article to have someone whose credentials are in serious question. Like quoting Chick in a "Criticism of Catholicsm" article. After seeing the latter, someone looking for research

1472:

Once again once a person has clicked on the Criticism of Islam article, they are presented first with the template that branches off to other directly related "sub" articles like Criticism of Muhammad, Quran, Islam critics and so on. So it makes sense to have the Contro template first and then the

1451:

Once a person has clicked on this article, they need to be presented with the appropriate template. It doesnt have to be the same one that was used in the 'parent' article. The Controversies template is where all the controversy related articles are presented. I numbered your points above so I can

1293:

Not sure if this is the right things to be posting under but here goes. The feel of criticism is far different than that of other religions. Just read the criticism of Judaism article again for comparison, and it is much less political. For example when discussing zionism, it refers to the fact

3811:

there are more external links that lead to counter arguments of critics of islam than those that lead to actual criticism of islam. not only that but the ones do lead to criticism of islam are very confusing and do not provide a very good criticism of islam. i think some good sites that should be

3137:

we all know that there are lunatics in EVERY religion or even ideology in general (whether it be religion, or politics, or activists issues, or hobbyists, or whatever), but these criticism articles have become nothing more than a list of the terrible things that have been done in the name of that

2926:

dab, I must respectfully disagree on a couple of points. While I do agree that it would be better to present the information as text rather than as a list, that's not what Student7 did. He didn't reformat the information, he deleted it wholesale. I can even agree with you that there are occasions

2842:

Knowledge (XXG) should not be a mere list. To say accurately (and list, with references) that probably several thousand notable people have written unpleasant articles about Islam is not useful and hardly the point here. Either they have written something that is useful and different or they have

2760:

that he has done something supportive of Islam, but the interpreters of the Quoran do not agree that his conduct is correct. At least if pervasive. If I interpret a passage of the Quoran to mean that women are worth half what a man is, it does not matter than masters of the Book interpret this to

2072:

Unfortunately many of the hadith that have been quoted in the article are from Ibn Ishaq and his Prophetic Biography. Now the problem is that the original biography is missing and an inedited version was later assembled by his disciple Ibn Hisham who says that the biography was indeed 'edited and

1626:

about that article. But that does a disservice to readers that are trying to learn about the worldwide history. In other words, the sidebars should be relatively high-level. Creating multiple, low-level sidebars defeats the purpose of sidebars. If we followed that "low level sidebar" trend:

158:

As just a casual (but regular) reader of Knowledge (XXG), this article seems to be in at least the top 5% of Knowledge (XXG) articles, and therefore meets and exceeds the standards set by the rest of Knowledge (XXG). I propose that enhancements to the style be made transparently by concerned and

3036:

this article is labeled "criticism of islam" but i see more criticism of muslims than i see of the actual religion of islam. we hear everyday that islam is "a religion of peace" but we see such ugly actions. as we know there are good people and bad people in ALL religions, and for us to use this

1833:(although I posted a query there once about "criticism of some religion" and got a reply that Atheism was not the proper place for discussing criticism of religion); (3) Or you could just set up a discussion/Talk page on that topic at some arbitrary place, say a sub-page of this Talk page ( e.g. 757:

The question you pose is one we need not address... the issue here is whether the citation itself verifies direct criticism of Islam. Hence, I agree completely with the second part of your post. The case here seems to be that a law was passed to prevent arranged marriages, not uncommon to Muslim

2755:

Well, it was all one-way before, a bit unencyclopedia. But people do things in the name, or under the aegis of Islam, in which each person, a fundamentalist, pretty much does his own thing. The problem with fundamentalism. So some things, properly referenced, may have to be (re?) inserted where

2388:

find any secondary source discussing Ali Sina, that is a good clue that he is really not all that important. In other words: if no secondary sources recognize his importance, then maybe we shouldn't be repeating his opinions in this encyclopedia. If he is important: it should be easy to find

1810:

Your point is well made and I had been thinking along similar lines. Since each major religion has been the subject of numerous scholarly criticisms, each might well have its own Criticism sidebar. In that case, it would seem entirely reasonable that the main Criticism article would feature the

3281:

A faith is a set of beliefs, and it would be unfair to criticize those who criticize any belief - I say this as a Christian who receives lots of criticism about that faith. Besides, this is not about fairness, wikipedia is about creating articles about notable and reference-verifiable topics.

2230:

is notable and Ali sina is the ex-Muslim who founded it. The criticisms raised by Ali Sina through his organization are directly relevant to this subject and it is totally appropriate to include them. Have you ANY other reason to exclude this besides your spurious and irrational insistence on

842:

Hi guys. We've discussed a number of times over the 'Criticism of' articles that the quality of sourcing must be improved. Polemical websites do not qualify as reliable sources, whether critical or apologetic (infidels.org, understanding-islam.net and so on). Most internet polemics and fringe

491:

article should not be slanted, but a documentation. Our mission is not to cleans or neutralize the encyclopedia of concepts we find personally offensive, but to present those concepts from a neutral position. The topic is discrete -and could no more be wrapped coherently, comprehensively,

1933:

I don't understand how this comment of not believing in any religion qualifies any individual with a sound mind to disqualify this person from this article, on the contraire, it looks very much like the forces embarassed and exposed for their lies and manipulation are trying to cover up the

727:

Jihad is an aspect of Islamic law. I don't see how it relates to the example at hand, which is of arranged marriages by Muslim immigrants. It may be part of the traditional culture of Muslims (as well as Sikhs and Hindus) from South Asia and other areas, but the notion that there's anything

2611:

may or may not be appropriate for this article. I read a few of the sources and they were either (1) dead links; or (2) did not describe a criticism of Islam. The material may be okay if there are critics that say "Islam is bad because it hinders assimilation into modern democracies",

1727:

which has no sidebar at all. I was also considering that no other specific religion has such an extensive body of Criticism articles, which means that a direct comparison isn't really possible; many articles/religions don't have the option of a Criticism sidebar because there isn't one.

314:

It wouldn't be a rename only though, because you would be changing the scope of the article. I would suggest keeping the present article since it is very long and still only a brief introduction to criticism of Islam; reducing the criticism part would only result in loss of information.

1146:

Okay, I made the change identified above. The list of Critics is rather long, and I suggest that if an editor wants to add any more critics (or add addtional detail within the existing critics) then that would be a good time to split the "Critics" section into its own article. See

2277:

The title of this article is "Criticism of Islam." What reliable source notes the website for such criticism, and what exactly does the source state? Keep in mind that the burden of proof is on you to provide such backing since you're the editor seeking inclusion of this material.

1528:

Ok. You're right, I checked. It had been below the main Islam template however - it doesnt mean that cant or shouldnt change. Article flow has to be considered and the next most relevant template has to be considered which enables the reader to go more deeply into the subject.

1294:

that some scholars say that this is unacceptable, or that the practice of breaking sabbath to save a gentile must be viewed in the historic context. Either this article should be modified to qualify all criticisms or the qualifications on the Judaism one needs to be removed.

2927:

where the right way to improve an article is to remove referenced info that doesn't belong, but I honestly don't think that's the case with Dawkins. Although you may reasonably claim that Dawkins tends to "dumb down" information for layman, the fact remains he is successful

1685:

article would include the actual "criticism of Islam" template; the major question would seem to be whether or not to use both, and if so, in what order. I would hope for broader discussion involving a number of other editors, in order to establish a reasonable consensus.

704:

You would be wrong, then; I very specifically mean Islamic culture, as I am not including culture shared by Muslims that is outside the realm of the tenants of Islamic faith- such as advances in sciences, culinary proclivities, folk tails and superstitions (such as the

2843:

merely repeated what everyone else is saying. The latter is not useful nor original. Nor should we be using people with phony credentials like Dawkins, who is not a scholar of religion at all. merely someone who hates religion. If we are stooping that low, how about

3601:

Also, deletion of material has been made based on lacking a citation, when a tag was put just recently and everyone knows that the statement/material is accurate because it was widely publicized. Material should not be deleted when it is generally known to be true.

1961:

okay. Also: "bullet" format is not the best format for an encyclopedia, though it can be used in rare situations. I know there are a couple of sections in this article that use bullets, but that was a mistake, and new sections should not repeat that mistake. --

2192:(EC) OK, so it actually redirects to his organization. That doesn't mean he is not notable. Since he founded a notable organization he is clearly notable. Removing content just because you don't like it is only one step from vandalism. 18:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 820:

criticism of Islam. Naturally, it should do so in an unbiased way, but to have an article on the subject of criticism of Islam is not intrinsically biased. It's a perfectly legitimate subject for an article (God knows there's plenty of criticism to report on).

2174:

OK, so it actually redirects to his organization. That doesn't mean he is not notable. Since he founded a notable organization he is clearly notable. Removing content just because you don't like it is only one step from vandalism. 18:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

1811:

Criticism sidebar rather than the Religion sidebar. I would favor that approach, but would feel more comfortable if there were a wider consensus for it. What would be the proper venue for such a discussion, since its effects would go far beyond this article?

931:

Another thing is the "Love Jihad".Please include this!It is a practice in India,Europe to allure infidel girls by pretending Love ,later to kidnap or forcefully change them to the pagan moon god cult(islam).moslem men are rewarded 10000$ acc. to bajrang dal

2887:

is a brilliant scholar, widely known as both a distinguished scientist AND and an insightful critic of religion who has published numerous well-received books and articles on the subject. To attack his credentials only serves to reduce your own credibility.

424:. As discrete articles, topically specific information is more easily discerned and retrieved by the end user- as is the goal of an encyclopedia. Such articles may link out to each other. For an example of two closely related but separate articles, see 3119:

Fact - there are bad things done in the name of Islam. Some of those will be shown in (say) the "Islamic terrorism" article. Some of them will be shown here. It is entirely appropriate for negative things in Islam to be put on the "criticism of Islam"

2879:

but this is your personal opinion, not based in either policy or practice. In other words, you are wrong. Knowledge (XXG) includes a very large number of lists, both within articles, and even as stand-alone articles themselves; many readers find them

3409:

Why is it unfair to criticise any set of beliefs? If I am a Socialist, I would be criticised by Conservatives. Who gave religions the privilage of a special exemption from this? The page does not criticise Islam, it merely documents criticisms of

2529:

possible to "desecrate" anyplace; unlike (say) a person who truly worships statues as personal or household "gods", for example. While the offense of mutilating a bible is more than just annoying, it seems hardly in the category of "sacrilegious."

2686:

I fully support your change, a lot of the content in this article is not neutral and almost all of the "critics" are not reliable. This article (and the others on the criticism of Qur'an and Muhammad) do not follow the same standards used in

2661:

Material that was not supported by secondary sources. It is not sufficient for a critic to say "Islam is bad because ...". In addition, there must be a secondary analyst (who is not a critic) who analyzes and documents the criticism. See

1116:

Comparing this article to the other "Criticism of " articles, I see no other article that has such a verbose list in the middle of the article. Just to clarify: I think the list is good, I'm only questioning is placement. Any comments?

3540:

Islamophobia at the start of the article. I understand that Islam-related articles on Knowledge (XXG) are at the mercy of a determined clique of Muslim propagandists, but even they should be unhappy about such an obvious contradiction.

974:

STOP! Nothing more! The editorial quality of this has a lower standing than that of flatworms! I'm considering on a suitable new template to litter onto this article such as, otherwise {{huh}} = might suffice for some cases. ... said:

1056:

All right, so it looks like this particular criticism has not yet been addressed in the Talk page. I'll do some research to see if enough 2ndary sources discuss the art issue to make it significant to be mentioned in this article.

2670:

Some of the removed material may be appropriate for the article, but - to be restored - it will need secondary sources that are discussing criticisms of Islam's tenets (not merely actions taken by persons who happen to be Muslim).

1236:

talk page for users here that what's important here is that all religions on Knowledge (XXG) are dealt with in a neutral manner. No religion can be devoid of any criticism, that is censorship, which is not allowed on Knowledge (XXG)

843:

theories are beyond the scope this article as reliable texts which do discuss criticism of Islam have not deemed such material worthy of mention. I've tagged the article accordingly so that we can proceed with rectifying this.

2009:

Hi, I definitely agree that the policy is clear and the EL section had grown into a link farm, and I support (and appreciate) your continued patrolling to help maintain that section. I had recently pruned several of the least

3164:

I have seen nothing here about the idolization of the Koran, leading, (for example) to mob execution of UN aid workers for someone burning a copy in the US. This idolization seems to be supported by US politicians and media.

2499:

Dawkins is an expert on reporting science, his forte. A "bit" of a crank on religion (to employ an understatement). Could be used as a "contrary" reference if anything he says can be used to support religion, I suppose. :)

226:{{cite book | last=Watt | first=W. Montgomery | url=http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/watt.html | title=Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman | pages=229 | year=1961 | publisher=Oxford University Press | id=ISBN 0-19-881078-4}} 1203: 1631:

sidebar, which contains a list of the "see also" articles from the article itself. In summary: more persuasive reasons for the new Crit of Isl sidebar, than merely "Crit of Is is the primary article in the sidebar".

1579:

The "Criticism" sidebar could be placed below the Islam sidebar; or as a footer template. But there is no value added in having it as the main sidebar, since all the topics are (or should be) in this article already.

2616:

there are some secondary sources that discuss/analyze that criticism. However, if there are only a few minor critics, and no secondary sources, the material should be removed. Can anyone provide secondary sources?

510:

A merge isn't being proposed. We're discussing a rename of the article. I don't see how your arguments apply... no-one is claiming that it should be renamed because it's 'subjectively distasteful' or 'offensive'.

2799:. Since critics duplicate, you will either have to lump them together or pick the best spokesperson. Normally, this will be the person with the best academic credentials, not a best selling novelist or blogger! 474:

There are a great many views regarding Islam; merging the contents of this article with such would not serve the purpose of this article- a summation reference for those researching Criticism of Islam. Just as

994:

has such a structure that I'm looking after. Maybe the lists I just raved about could be transformed to such subsections as under that section, and those loony lists could be successively depopulated. ... said:

432:. The existence of a this article in no way precludes contributions to other articles featuring whatever content is warranted by the pertinent topic- whether that content is academic, mainstream, or radical. 1260:

person has criticized it), or a small amount of critisism which can be covered wholly within the article's main entry dealing with that religion in particular. So, in other words, Knowledge (XXG) is going to

1897:

I deleted Wafaa Sultan from the section of "Muslim critics of Islam." Sultan have said before that she is not a Muslim nor a believer in any religion. She said said so in an interview with Al Jazeera TV

234:{{cite book | title=Multiculturalism, Muslims and Citizenship: A European Approach | author=Tariq Modood | publisher=Routledge | edition=1st | date=2006-04-06 | id=ISBN 978-0415355155 | pages=3, 29, 46}} 3266:

You can criticize pretty much everything on Knowledge (XXG), you can even create a critiwiki but criticising a faith is unfair, criticising the image portrayed by extremists is fair but not the faith

3346:

You're misguided Satanoid; no one is criticizing Islam based on any extremists in this article (as far as I am aware) - its got a belief based criticism only. Criticizing certain ideas, source etc.

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section, discussing (1) criticisms related to polygamy; and (2) criticisms related to child brides. All content would be supported by reliable sources, of course. Any suggestions or comments? --

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of Islamic principles in specific countries. Like Afghanistan (and others) punishing rape victims by forcing them to marry the perpetrator, or punishing it as adultery (and therefore stoning).

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also. I guess having something like views/perceptions of Islam, that could have the praise, the criticism and the general marginal views, that do not necessarily praise or criticize, is best.

675:, and, to an equal extent, the myriad of traditions less formally delineated yet closely adhered to by its practitioners as defacto tenants of Islam? The question is not rhetorically posed. 816:

There still seems to be some confusion on the subject of criticism. If the article is about criticism of Islam, that doesn't mean the article is criticising Islam; it means the article is

2658:

Material that was not about a criticism of Islam (its tenets & texts) but was instead merely anecdotal stories about persons doing immoral or unethical actions in relation to Islam.

1241:). All religions have criticisms, which Knowledge (XXG) must cover. It is not acceptable to have the situation where there are criticism articles for some religions while not for others. 4040:

In others (Palestine, for example), suicide bombers are recruited from women caught (or maybe just accused of) adultery. They are given a choice: stoning or suicide with a martyrs death.

3016:

Why does the Blasphemy section contain only one modern day story? I thought we had agreed that we weren't going to post things done by muslims as an example of the religion in general? (

2127:

might reasonably be questioned in some circumstances, but his notability cannot, and his presence in the list of ex-Muslim critics is entirely appropriate. Any other thoughts on this?

1388:

I notice this article changed sidebar templates: from "Islam" to "Controversies related to Islam". Im not sure that is a great idea. A few reasons to prefer the "Islam" sidbar are:

927:

There are fatwas issued by mad mullah's in India,Europe to Overbreed to catch up with the infidel(kaafir) population and later according to the document(koran) ,slaughter the kuffrs.

689:

I think you mean 'Muslim culture' as opposed to 'Islamic culture'. I agree there appears to be a conflation between critique of Islam and critique of Muslims from particular cultures.

3142:@75.59.203.174 - The "lunatics in every religion" is nothing more than a Tu Quoque argument. This article is about criticism of Islam. It is not about criticising any other religion. 451:

would be fundamentally unencyclopedic, and I think most of the community would agree too. Your analogy regarding telescopes articles doesn't quite fit: there is a difference between

2761:

mean illiterate women who knew nothing about finance. It is open to misinterpretation. And yes, we can quote the masters as refuting that interpretation, but it still may be there.

2666:. This standard is the same standard applied in all the other "Criticism of some religion" articles, and is very useful in ensuring neutrality and avoiding coatrack problems. 1511:

Could you double check that? The history shows that the Islam template was on top for several years, until you moved the Controversies template above it a few weeks ago, here:

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Yes, most links in the external links section should be removed. I may go through this sometime, although I never look forward to cleaning up articles on controversial subjects.

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even though they inhabited only the Southern United States and not all Christian nations. But this can't be said about Islamic practices. They are not isolated to one country.

216:, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) 3064:

is labeled as a "Christian terrorist" group, though they terrorized Catholics. While this makes no sense from someone who identifies with Christianity, nevertheless, the KKK

3089:@75.59.203.174 - I beg to disagree. Surely *any* religion is made up of both its teachings and its followers. Its followers are responsible for their actions (good or bad). 1322:

And wouldn't the article be better if it had a picture of the mohammed bomb hat cartoon alongside the summary of that whole kerfuffle? After all, wikipedia isn't censored.

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legitimately be moved to other articles. Violence, for example, may belong in some of the many articles on that topic. And it can be "See also" or linked here, but to go

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There have been a lot of summary deletions of criticism of linked material with recent tags. I would like to see this purging of obviously legitimate material halted.

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articles are good models to use. Not to say they are perfect, but they have undergone a lot of scrutiny, and have evolved to a fairly neutral, encyclopedic state. --

2123:, his books, and his organization on the grounds that Sina is not notable. Since we have multiple articles about him this is clearly incorrect. Mr Sina's utility as a 487:, it does not serve the interest of the function of the Encyclopedia to do away with that article, no mater how subjectively distasteful. Likewise, from a NPOV, the 964:

and the rebuttals from the moslem defenders. Foremost, just listing a person and not writing what and how the person criticises islam s*xx horribly and worse. F.ex.:

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We are not "counting heads" here to "reach consensus" on whether Islam is good or bad. There is no space here for adherents! We are looking for academic arguments.

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I'm sure there are ways to improve a Criticism article that don't start with removing referenced criticism and critics; let's explore those options first shall we?

447:

Views includes criticism. It would also allow for academic fringe views which aren't "critical", positive appraisals, and so on. I think an article with the title

3684:. This section contained material that actually happened that wasn't perfect in the editor's mind and he deleted it. Suggest moving third opinion up one section. 3655:

It is important to make a difference between the event and its application. In this case, the issues with the legislation in islamic countries, that arise due to

3916:

Also add "radical Islam" to this list. Anyone criticizing "radical Islam" is probably not criticizing Islam the religion, or else wouldn't use a qualifying term.

1405:

A good compromise would be to use the Islam sidebar, and put the Controversy template as a footer. Or perhaps both templates, but Islam above the Controversy.--

193:(1934-1990) and their criticism of Islam are not mentioned in the article. Could someone do that? English is not my native language, otherwise I'd do it myself. 3057:

a bit of a jolt to realize that fanatical Muslims have terrorized their co-religionists for having less zeal than they, for centuries, maybe a millenia or more.

2018:

seems like a unique resource because it is criticism from ex-Muslims, and more academically focused than rabble-rouser blogs like Jihadwatch. Just a thought....

1104:

Move them into the "See Also" list at the bottom. Include only the critic's name. The details can be found by following the link to the critic's own article.

3092:

I believe that it is possible for either the teachings or the followers (or both) to be criticised. This article strikes (imo) a good balance between the two.

2809:

Let's bring the level of this article back to an encyclopedia level. There is core material. We need to get rid of the stuff that distracts from it. Thanks.

3510:

It can't be much of a religion if it hasn't been large enough to be academically criticized and documented here. (With apologies to folks whose religions

3310:

You have presented two contradicting principles. Over 1400 years there are several distortions added to Islamic values which are not inherently Islamic.

3116:@75.59.203.174 - "Someone who really wants to know about Islam?" This article is *NOT* an "Introduction to Islam". It is a "criticism of Islam" article. 2293:

been repeatedly deleted by anonymous editors for dubious reasons. Again, you haven't got consensus to remove established text so it will remain for now.

1075:, so I propose to add a new, small section in this article, summarizing that existing section, with a "main" or "seealso" template referring to it. -- 4030:

While there are "liberal" countries (so far) like Omam and Egypt, Women's rights are often suppressed in Islamic countries. Since laws are constructed

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of that topic. Does anyone know if it was discussed before? Or if there is already an article in this encyclopedia that discusses it? Thanks. --

2467:. There is no policy that I know of which states that items in lists must meet the same stringent standards that would apply to an article at AfD. 3487:

Just because a set of beliefs is called a "religion" does not exempt it from scrutiny and criticism. This goes for *any* religion, not only Islam.

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I would concur with inclusion of the COI sidebar, provided that it were below the main Islam sidebar; which it is, so I have no issues now. --

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And many Islamic countries, if not most have "dress codes" enforced by religious police where available, or by the regular police (sometimes).

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is a policy. It is not a guideline. Please stop deleting material known to be accurate, but lacks "perfection" by an exact, up-to-date link.

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etc; However if it doesn't include actual criticism of the religion of Islam then it doesn't belong in this article as the title suggests.

3831: 2486: 2446: 2344: 2312: 2279: 2248: 2204: 2179: 2143: 1905: 1570:. Its a template that groups all the meaning articles together. I will put it back now since this is the main article for that template. -- 4023:? They didn't fall out of the sky. They are religiously derived with Islamic support. If they didn't get it from Islamic tradition, where 2561: 1476:

For all these reasons, the Controversies template has always been on top so you have to get consensus before you can make this change. --

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article is also an option. There aren't any precedents with other religion article for this sort of thing, but that doesn't rule it out.

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is that in that article for every item of critic, there is a "response" or "defense" or "nuance", which is all lacking in this article.

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Seeing no comments, I propose to move the list of critics down to the bottom of this article for now, then later into a new article. --

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that. I'm only providing the alternate perspective. After all, this is the "Discussion" page. Do with the info as you wish. Farewell.

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I'm assuming you've read both of these sources. Can you cite the page number and sentence where this is described for its criticism in

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The "contro" template itself is of pretty propagandistic nature and adds little in terms of encyclopaedic value - as I have mentioned

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And in fact, the first thing to do about this article is to remove the stuff that doesn't belong here. It simply attracts imitators.

3869:

This article is about the criticism of Islam and should remain such. I would like to note that Islam is a religion. What it is not:

3536:

Leaving aside the vacuity of the term itself, it's ridiculous to include this article in a series on Islamophobia when it's already

1837:). In any case, you should post notices of the new discussion at the 7 or 8 "Criticism of SomeReligion" articles' Talk pages (e.g. 944: 166: 89: 84: 72: 67: 59: 4034:

Islamic countries, where else can they have derived them but Islam? Are they reading something wrong? Are they religious heretics?

1398:

No other religions have "Controversies about ..." templates (so, although the Controversy template may be valid, it is a "one off")

3246:; your comments to and about Student7 are totally inappropriate. So were your changes to the article and they have been reverted. 2700:

I'm currently going through the article, but I think more people should get involved in checking the text and the cited sources.

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knowedgeable people who find something dissatisfactory, instead of displaying a glaring flag that reduces readers' expectations.

118: 1834: 3982: 1785: 1747: 1222: 1743: 709:), common prejudice, etc. A single example, in no way definitive of all the characteristics so included, is the concept of 2935:? I am completely open to reasonable discussion, but part of what I objected to was the blanket removal of content. Thanks, 2663: 2380: 1780:

Some more info to consider: all major religions already have categories in this encyclopedia for "criticisms of .." as in

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Actually, I'm not applying notability guidelines at all because you've changed the entry to FFI. What is being applied is

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or relevant myself. However, I do wonder if we might keep another one of the more useful Criticism sites? Specifically,

3307:

Hi, you say "it would be unfair to criticize those who criticize any belief" then you say "this is not about fairness"

1319:

So why does this page have so many external islam fansite links? Surely they should all be removed, apart from 2 or 3?

568:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

270:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

102:

Lead section is too short given the length of the article. Four paragraphs of the current length would be appropriate.

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The word "controversy" is not too accurate when applied to this article: many criticisms are not controversies, true?

3981:

You keep adding more irrelevant things to this article. These things have their place in Knowledge (XXG) for example

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now I'm fine with having both as you dont agree to having only the COI, which I think is the right way to do it. --

1838: 38: 2645: 2565: 2375:, no primary source critics of Judaism are cited at all (the only sources are academics and commentators that are 3741: 3711: 2788: 2692: 2226:

Assuming that because we don't yet have an article about someone, they are inherently not notable is ridiculous.

2160:. This is his foundation's article on Knowledge (XXG). Clicking on the blue words will take you to that article. 1611: 1606:. An objection to the "Crit of Islam" sidebar is illustrated by the following example:: consider the article 1233: 2569: 2553: 3232: 3227:

stop makingf muslims look bad and hindus look like saints,you people also have evil tendencies,everyone has em.

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about it, is irrelevant to an supposedly academic discussion of Islam, is certainly not useful at this level.

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I'll leave Dawkins since there he has an article. But non-notables, if still there need to go at this point.

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Is there a difference between Islamic culture and Islam? Does Islam as a religious entity not include the

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create a "criticism of Mormonism" sidebar quite easily (and could probably do so for any major faith). --

1751: 4048: 3963:. The only things that should be mentioned in an article about criticism of Islam is criticism of Islam. 2653: 2557: 632:

saying how it has a relativistic or Thrasymachean ethic and that it is incompatible with civilization. --

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Doc Tropics, this is just your opinion. I maintain that Student7 is perfectly correct in observing that

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I can agree with that logic. That would be the more neutral action to take. The more NPOV, the better.

2795:, (pick one yourself). This should not be a list of critics! What good does that do, besides violating 2262:

Now it is a list of ex-Muslims and organizations critical of Islam, so stop deleting the info, thanks.

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Another thought: there are at least 3 sidebar templates that could be appropriate for this article:

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What do you mean "The Controversies template has always been on top"? Isn't that a recent change? --

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of Isalm by the powers (regardless of whether this application is right or wrong) is another issue.—

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My point is that there are people who are anti-Islamic (for whatever reasons) just as their exists

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has noting to do with Islam. It is a problem imposed by immigration of people of certain belief. --

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we might incorporate both positive as well as negative views as well (in a neutral way obviously).

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No, actually it is not. Compare Muslim reactions to burning of the Kuran to American reactions to

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Criticism of Islam#Islam's influence on the ability of Muslim immigrants in the West to assimilate

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this will also show that the criticism is very biased and does not fulfill aspects of neutrality

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on existing criticism which happens to meet our notability criteria. Please read and understand

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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Criticism_of_Islam&diff=462289167&oldid=462288961

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sidebar about "History of baseball in the United States" and suggest that it should be used in

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2: It doesnt matter what other "religion" articles are doing. We do here what makes more sense

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Nothing is mentioned of the criticism of Islam and its close relation to Gnostic Christianity.

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Material such as the 2 blocks you readded are in no way relevant to the page as they contain

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ideology and then a few quotes from the religious scriptures that may possibly justify it.

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I don't believe you've done the same. Otherwise, you would not be instructing me to do so.

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The Islam template would be more consistent with other "Criticism of someReligion" articles

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There's no consensus here for its inclusion, only you. By re-inserting the material, you

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You're wrong because it was seen as useful by all the 20 people who took part in that

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Another compromise may be: having both as sidebars, with the Islam sidebar on top? --

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You missed the word "Besides", if you want you can put this article up for deletion.

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Then take it to AfD, in fact bundle all the religious criticism articles together.

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No I believe its always been on top (until you changed it for a few days or so). --

863:. Some of them are without doubt extremist and fringe. The article needs to pass a 824: 775: 713:- both as it is proscribed by Islamic law and commonly interpreted and implemented. 397: 383: 190: 969:

Daniel Pipes an American historian and analyst who specializes in the Middle East.

360:

By that logic, wouldn't this article, criticism of Islam, be inherently violating

3740:

You have an opportunity to help Knowledge (XXG) by removing that notice from the

548:

I object to such a move, and my reasons are based on a combination of the above.

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This should not be a collection of violence. These may go into another article,

2199:, but "since he founded a notable organization he is clearly notable" is also a 1976:

I see the unsightly plethora of islam fansites and anti-islam sites has returned

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article- but leave this one: it is needed, and merging it would be a disservice.

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3640: 3313: 1825:

Hmmm. That is a good question :-) I guess there are a couple of places: (1)

131:

i dunno how this works but i wanted to add a refutation to link/source number

2441:? I have the book in front of me, and can find no such thing. Also, what does 1762:, etc, etc. so there is a "body" of articles on that religion; and an editor 1542: 1072: 653: 186: 2406:

what sources report this organization and its site for its criticism of Islam

1110:

Put the list at the bottom of this article, down with SeeAlso and References.

275:

The result of the proposal was I propose we rename this to "Views on Islam".

4084:

council of Britain as critics of Islam. Do you not see how idiotic this is?

3770:

Yes, exactly so. Islam is not responsible for any of this. The state is. —

2568:. The purpose of the split would be to bring the article size down a bit ( 935: 425: 341:

I feel that an article like 'praise of Islam' would be inherently violating

1742:

Yeah, you have a good point there. Though within Mormon articles there is

1204:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_Judaism_(2nd_nomination)

1610:- it is one of the articles that uses the "History of baseball" template 1469:

4: Thats an issue with the name of the template, so its a seperate issue.

1364:

I just went for it themfromspace, I think 6 links is plenty for any page.

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Holy books of other religions are not idols. Burning them means nothing.

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use the main sidebar for their religion (Buddhism, Christianity, etc). --

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it is not a culture (merits and demerits of Muslim culture should be at

3850:

www.answeringmuslims.com it's a Jewish web-site not a Muslim web-site --

2548:

I propose to move the list of critics into a new article, perhaps named

3484:

I agree with Doktoris. I am very strongly in favour of critical debate.

2806:, perhaps, and be linked to from here under an appropriate subsection. 2640:

several months ago. The removed material fell into a few categories:

133:

http://islamic-replies.ucoz.com/2/Refuting_Infidels_Org_Cosmology.html

3621:

It doesn't matter whether cited or not, it's not criticism of Islam.

2339:

I believe you need to familiarize yourself with policy, particularly

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I concur with the rationale behind renaming this article. To make it

3877:

is not Islam, and plenty of scholars have made that distinguishment)

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To facilitate discussion, here are the 3 versions so far proposed:

4136:

Well, you could have a separate article on "Criticism of Muslims".

3068:

tolerated in the South for decades before being brought to an end.

2787:

Please pay attention to the level of material in the article. See

2636:

I removed some material, most of which was apparently inserted by

2371:

secondary sources may be included in the article: for example, in

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Non-notable people or non-notable articles should not be in here.

1434:

No reply after a few days, so going with the above suggestion. --

564:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.

2718:

I agree. What is most striking when comparing this article with

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in all but name. The whole article is a platform for the same.

3051:) 12:50 am, 27 March 2011, Sunday (1 month, 7 days ago) (UTC−5) 2883:

Your statement regarding Dawkins is likewise completely wrong.

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to be said in here, since you appear to have somehow acquired

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Create a new "list" style article: "List of critics of Islam"

25: 3469:

WP isn't criticising anything, it is simply reporting facts.

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way a judgment of the value of related subjects- such as the

3865:

Islam vs. Islamism vs. Islamic culture vs. Islamic countries

2742:

Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1756:

Criticism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1725:

Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1392:

This article is about Islam, more so that "controversies .."

3438:

Indeed. Knowledge (XXG) isn't criticizing anything. We are

2311:

the editor seeking inclusion. Please address my arguments.

2247:

please establish his notability before inserting him here.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/23/religion-islam

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Flagged as not meeting Knowledge (XXG)'s quality standards

2414:

2.) Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out. Ibn Warraq, 2003.

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someReligion" articles have determined by consensus that

1980:

Can I yet again draw peoples attention to the following-

323:

or w/e) would have to be a new article, in my opinion. A

1036:

Has "impact to public art" been discussed in Talk pages?

1016:

proper criticisms of Islam or it's instruction manuals.

612:

has said that Sharia is incompatible with Human rights.

4080:

since in the Sudan one you somehow managed to cite the

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This is not isolated to this article. For example, the

2053:

I support this approach. Thank you for your efforts. --

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Where did these countries (one with religious police)

3880:

it is not a contemporary government (criticism of the

3225:

http://dalitvoice.org/Templates/july2009/editorial.htm

2644:

Material that had no supporting sources. Removed per

264:

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal.

3222:

http://dalitvoice.org/Templates/nov_a2010/reports.htm

2544:

Proposal to split "list of critics" into own article

2119:An anon has repeatedly deleted text about ex-Mulim 2077:Hi. First, please sign comments with four tildes ( 1983:wikipedia guidelines say that wikipedia is not a, 1307:wikipedia guidelines say that wikipedia is not a, 3490:I strongly believe that this article should stay. 3314:http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy 2142:Please point to his article, i.e. the exact URL. 728:distinctly Islamic about it remains unverified. 3898:' should be in the articles of those countries) 2908:is not a list article. If you want to create a 2379:the criticisms in a second-hand manner). See 1071:It looks like the topic is already covered in 907:Maybe because very little is known. ... said: 2389:secondary sources that talk about him. -- 2195:Your comment not only expresses a failure to 1919:Is there a link we can follow to prove this? 8: 1302: 3032:criticism of islam vs. criticism of muslims 2411:1.) The God Delusion. Richard Dawkins, 2006 1202:There is a deletion discussion going on at 3744:article, as it's also irrelevant there. — 3242:IP117, please review our policy regarding 2877:Knowledge (XXG) should not be a mere list. 1835:Talk:Criticism_of_Islam/Sidebar discussion 1701:Doc: why do you say "Other "Criticism of 871:test in order to clean non-valid sources. 3262:This site should be proposed for deletion 1827:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Religion 1622:article. After all, the new sidebar is 1177:I propose to add content to the existing 936:http://www.hinduunity.org/bewaregirls.htm 859:I agree with you, the article cites many 208:Bot report : Found duplicate references ! 2973:For starters, even Dawkins needs to say 1831:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Atheism 1620:History of baseball in the United States 1608:History of baseball in the United States 1255:Actually criticism for all religions is 1093:"List of critics" is a bit out of place? 4043:I guess, the question is what will you 3424:Removing this page would be censorship. 2603:Need sources for "Assimilation" section 2562:Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style (lists) 1604:Template:Atheism and Irreligion Sidebar 181:Ali Dashti and Turan Dursun are missing 1206:, and any input would be appreciated. 1098:moved. A couple of alternatives are: 582:appears to no longer be operational. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1264:criticism on a religion according to 604:Sharia incompatible with Human rights 7: 3793:and, though it has been answered by 2587:The proposed split has been done. -- 2463:guidelines which were written about 1672:both sidebars in an over/under combo 479:fits within the broader category of 189:(1894-1982) and the Turkish scholar 3894:it is not a country (criticism of ' 1303:what's with all the external links? 959:Criticism of this criticism article 1782:Category:Criticism of Christianity 1239:WP:Knowledge (XXG) is not censored 992:Criticism of the morality of Islam 24: 2929:because people can understand him 2445:state about the website? Thanks. 153: 3817:http://www.answeringmuslims.com/ 3814:http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ 3639: 3201:burning of the Stars and Stripes 2552:. This proposal is in based on 29: 3706:One thing I will say about the 1786:Category:Criticism of Mormonism 1748:Criticism of the Book of Mormon 1232:I'll repeat what I said on the 990:On the other hand: the section 580:http://www.answering-islam.org/ 4027:these proscriptions come from? 3983:Women's rights in Saudi Arabia 3846:much like to see this changed 2957:materials might just move on. 2952:Having said that, as a critic 2063:10:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC) 2049:03:11, 23 September 2010 (UTC) 2028:00:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC) 2004:22:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC) 1971:01:00, 16 September 2010 (UTC) 1950:21:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC) 1744:Criticism of Joseph Smith, Jr. 1455:1: The article is about Islam 769:17:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC) 753:05:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC) 739:13:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC) 723:04:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC) 700:20:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC) 598:13:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC) 1: 4094:19:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 4061:18:15, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 4003:01:02, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 3973:00:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 3946:00:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 3860:06:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC) 3802:19:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 3780:08:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 3754:10:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 3724:02:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 3694:02:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC) 3669:21:53, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 3631:19:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 3616:18:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC) 3591:23:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC) 3575:21:05, 17 November 2011 (UTC) 3464:20:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC) 3420:20:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC) 3404:11:16, 27 November 2008 (UTC) 3389:11:04, 27 November 2008 (UTC) 3366:07:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC) 3340:09:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3325:09:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC) 3302:23:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC) 3276:21:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC) 2819:14:16, 31 December 2010 (UTC) 1790:Category:Criticism of Judaism 1627:every article could have its 1614:. But anyone could create a 1459:controversy, not just Islam. 1085:03:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC) 1067:21:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC) 1051:15:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC) 1026:05:07, 10 December 2009 (UTC) 1005:21:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC) 985:21:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC) 917:20:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC) 881:20:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC) 833:10:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC) 794:23:44, 24 November 2008 (UTC) 685:06:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC) 662:16:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC) 642:03:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC) 175:03:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC) 4132:13:21, 3 December 2011 (UTC) 4118:article that criticizes the 2771:14:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC) 2732:06:10, 17 January 2011 (UTC) 2710:05:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC) 2681:05:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC) 2627:13:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC) 2597:13:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC) 2582:05:24, 17 January 2011 (UTC) 2570:Knowledge (XXG):Article size 2510:14:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC) 2495:05:14, 4 December 2010 (UTC) 2477:05:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC) 2455:04:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC) 2433:04:12, 4 December 2010 (UTC) 2404:Hi guys. People keep asking 2107:20:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC) 1073:Iconoclasm#Muslim iconoclasm 854:21:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC) 622:06:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC) 4146:23:08, 4 January 2012 (UTC) 3989:, the criticism section on 3926:23:05, 4 January 2012 (UTC) 3911:22:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC) 3884:of Iran should not be here) 3840:19:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC) 3823:http://www.islam-watch.org/ 3071:The same goes for Muslims. 3000:14:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC) 2967:14:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC) 2945:04:26, 4 January 2011 (UTC) 2922:23:23, 3 January 2011 (UTC) 2898:20:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 2871:20:06, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 2834:03:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 2539:20:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC) 2399:05:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2353:02:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2335:02:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2321:02:10, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2303:02:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2288:01:49, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2272:00:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 2257:19:10, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 2241:19:01, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 2228:Faith Freedom International 2213:18:45, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 2188:18:34, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 2170:18:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 2152:18:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 2137:18:21, 7 October 2010 (UTC) 1794:Category:Criticism of Islam 1600:Template:Criticism of Islam 1169:Proposal to add content to 902:22:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 558:02:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 537:02:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC) 522:22:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC) 506:22:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 470:21:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 442:06:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC) 252:20:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC) 4170: 3551:10:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC) 3524:13:07, 2 August 2011 (UTC) 3178:21:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC) 3081:12:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC) 3026:21:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC) 1929:12:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC) 1914:09:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC) 1839:Talk:Criticism of Hinduism 1667:Criticism of Islam sidebar 1524:16:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC) 1506:21:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC) 1496:19:27, 20 April 2010 (UTC) 1481:01:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC) 1444:14:06, 18 April 2010 (UTC) 1430:00:25, 16 April 2010 (UTC) 1415:19:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC) 1191:14:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC) 1161:17:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC) 214:the last revision I edited 3742:Criticism of Christianity 3712:Criticism of Christianity 3434:07:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC) 3237:06:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC) 2789:Criticism of Christianity 2693:Criticism of Christianity 1887:13:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC) 1872:19:05, 15 July 2010 (UTC) 1851:16:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC) 1821:15:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC) 1806:05:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC) 1776:02:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC) 1738:23:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 1719:23:30, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 1696:23:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 1642:23:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 1612:Template:HistBaseball nav 1590:14:20, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 1575:11:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC) 1234:Criticism of Christianity 1142:15:08, 9 March 2010 (UTC) 1127:20:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC) 406:02:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC) 392:11:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC) 374:00:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC) 356:15:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC) 337:23:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 306:21:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 291:20:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC) 203:02:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC) 4114:I suppose we can have a 3514:here to be criticized). 3479:18:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC) 3450:. Also consider reading 2910:list of critics of Islam 2793:Criticism of Catholicism 2550:List of critics of Islam 2459:You seem to be applying 1662:standard "Islam" sidebar 1562:22:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC) 1534:01:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC) 1379:19:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC) 1359:19:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC) 1335:16:15, 6 July 2010 (UTC) 1288:03:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC) 1251:22:01, 12 May 2010 (UTC) 1179:Criticism of Islam#Women 1171:Criticism of Islam#Women 953:14:18, 22 May 2009 (UTC) 566:Please do not modify it. 267:Please do not modify it. 3873:it is not an ideology ( 3820:http://www.memritv.org/ 3502:09:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC) 3256:13:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC) 3213:14:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC) 3203:... same difference. -- 3195:09:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC) 3183:Fair comment, actually. 3154:09:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC) 3132:09:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC) 3104:09:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC) 1384:Which sidebar template? 1367:<runs for cover: --> 1227:02:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC) 774:and has no place here. 18:Talk:Criticism of Islam 1752:Criticism of Mormonism 3987:LGBT topics and Islam 3953:no criticism of Islam 3647:third opinion request 3375:which is essentially 2847:? Some of this stuff 2524:Defacing bibles, etc. 1956:Better sources needed 1723:I had just looked at 430:History of Telescopes 42:of past discussions. 3373:Criticism of Judaism 3160:Idolization of Koran 2738:Criticism of Judaism 2720:Criticism of Judaism 2689:Criticism of Judaism 2664:WP:Secondary sources 2381:WP:Secondary sources 2373:Criticism of Judaism 2156:Click on this link: 1677:Other "Criticism of 1197:Criticism of Judaism 861:questionable sources 185:The Persian scholar 3932:Wholesale deletions 3795:Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 3772:Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 3746:Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 3661:Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 2465:articles, not lists 2325:No, you are wrong. 2201:fallacy of division 4051:over the article? 3957:Muslim Brotherhood 3789:I noticed this at 3538:distinguished from 2845:Chick Publications 2158:Ali Sina ex-Muslim 2016:Apostates of Islam 1683:Criticism of Islam 453:splitting articles 321:appraisal of Islam 3896:Islamic countries 3830:comment added by 3674: 3673: 3462: 3043:comment added by 2920: 2804:Islamic terrorism 2797:WP:INDISCRIMINATE 2417:Any questions? - 2197:assume good faith 2061: 1940:comment added by 1916: 1904:comment added by 1760:Reformed Egyptian 1473:Islam template. 1278:comment added by 943:comment added by 851: 766: 736: 697: 647:Separate articles 619: 588:comment added by 519: 467: 353: 177: 165:comment added by 141:comment added by 123: 109:comment added by 95: 94: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4161: 3961:History of Egypt 3882:Islamic republic 3842: 3643: 3636: 3635: 3458: 3361: 3352: 3297: 3288: 3253: 3244:personal attacks 3052: 2942: 2916: 2895: 2831: 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3532:"Islamophobia" 3530: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3526: 3505: 3504: 3491: 3488: 3485: 3407: 3406: 3369: 3368: 3343: 3342: 3305: 3304: 3263: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3218: 3217: 3216: 3215: 3184: 3161: 3158: 3157: 3156: 3143: 3135: 3134: 3121: 3117: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3106: 3093: 3090: 3084: 3083: 3069: 3058: 3033: 3030: 3015: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3010: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3006: 3005: 3004: 3003: 3002: 2988: 2978: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2950: 2881: 2859: 2856: 2837: 2836: 2784: 2781: 2780: 2779: 2778: 2777: 2776: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2713: 2712: 2697: 2696: 2668: 2667: 2659: 2656: 2633: 2630: 2604: 2601: 2600: 2599: 2545: 2542: 2525: 2522: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2517: 2516: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2487:69.115.152.200 2447:69.115.152.200 2415: 2412: 2409: 2364: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2355: 2345:68.197.167.149 2313:68.197.167.149 2280:68.197.167.149 2260: 2259: 2249:68.197.167.149 2224: 2223: 2222: 2221: 2220: 2219: 2218: 2217: 2216: 2215: 2205:68.197.167.149 2180:68.197.167.149 2172: 2144:68.197.167.149 2116: 2111: 2110: 2109: 2069: 2066: 2031: 2030: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1977: 1974: 1957: 1954: 1906:198.30.217.116 1894: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1675: 1674: 1669: 1664: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1652: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1648: 1647: 1646: 1645: 1644: 1596:Template:Islam 1499: 1498: 1468: 1466: 1460: 1449: 1448: 1447: 1446: 1403: 1402: 1399: 1396: 1393: 1385: 1382: 1362: 1361: 1325: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1304: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1199: 1194: 1174: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1163: 1114: 1113: 1112: 1111: 1108: 1105: 1094: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1088: 1087: 1037: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1028: 1008: 1007: 972: 971: 960: 957: 924: 921: 920: 919: 889: 886: 885: 884: 839: 838:Sourcing again 836: 813: 810: 809: 808: 807: 806: 805: 804: 803: 802: 801: 800: 799: 798: 797: 796: 648: 645: 628: 625: 610:House of Lords 605: 602: 576: 573: 571: 570: 546: 545: 544: 543: 542: 541: 540: 539: 494:Views of Islam 417: 416: 415: 414: 413: 412: 411: 410: 409: 408: 396:Fine by me. - 384:'Abd el 'Azeez 376: 317:Views on Islam 309: 308: 273: 272: 260: 258: 257:Propose rename 255: 241: 240: 239: 238: 235: 229: 228: 227: 224: 209: 206: 182: 179: 155: 152: 128: 125: 121:) 16 May 2008‎ 99: 96: 93: 92: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4166: 4147: 4143: 4139: 4135: 4134: 4133: 4129: 4125: 4121: 4117: 4113: 4112: 4111: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4107: 4106: 4095: 4091: 4087: 4083: 4078: 4077: 4076: 4075: 4074: 4073: 4072: 4071: 4070: 4069: 4062: 4058: 4054: 4050: 4046: 4042: 4039: 4036: 4033: 4029: 4026: 4022: 4018: 4014: 4013: 4012: 4011: 4010: 4009: 4004: 4000: 3996: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3980: 3979: 3978: 3977: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3962: 3958: 3954: 3950: 3949: 3948: 3947: 3943: 3939: 3931: 3927: 3923: 3919: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3908: 3904: 3897: 3893: 3890: 3886: 3883: 3879: 3876: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3864: 3862: 3861: 3857: 3853: 3847: 3843: 3841: 3837: 3833: 3829: 3824: 3821: 3818: 3815: 3806: 3804: 3803: 3800: 3796: 3792: 3781: 3777: 3773: 3769: 3768: 3767: 3766: 3765: 3764: 3755: 3751: 3747: 3743: 3739: 3738: 3737: 3736: 3735: 3734: 3733: 3732: 3725: 3721: 3717: 3713: 3709: 3705: 3704: 3703: 3702: 3701: 3700: 3695: 3691: 3687: 3683: 3678: 3677: 3676: 3675: 3670: 3666: 3662: 3658: 3654: 3653: 3649: 3648: 3642: 3638: 3637: 3632: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3619: 3618: 3617: 3613: 3609: 3605: 3604:WP:PERFECTION 3596: 3592: 3588: 3584: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3572: 3568: 3562: 3555: 3553: 3552: 3548: 3544: 3539: 3531: 3525: 3521: 3517: 3513: 3509: 3508: 3507: 3506: 3503: 3499: 3495: 3492: 3489: 3486: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3476: 3472: 3466: 3465: 3461: 3457: 3453: 3449: 3445: 3441: 3436: 3435: 3431: 3427: 3422: 3421: 3417: 3413: 3405: 3401: 3397: 3393: 3392: 3391: 3390: 3386: 3382: 3378: 3374: 3367: 3364: 3363: 3362: 3355: 3354: 3353: 3345: 3344: 3341: 3337: 3333: 3329: 3328: 3327: 3326: 3322: 3318: 3315: 3311: 3308: 3303: 3300: 3299: 3298: 3291: 3290: 3289: 3280: 3279: 3278: 3277: 3273: 3269: 3261: 3257: 3254: 3249: 3245: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3238: 3234: 3230: 3226: 3223: 3214: 3210: 3206: 3202: 3198: 3197: 3196: 3192: 3188: 3185: 3182: 3181: 3180: 3179: 3175: 3171: 3166: 3159: 3155: 3151: 3147: 3144: 3141: 3140: 3139: 3133: 3129: 3125: 3122: 3118: 3115: 3114: 3113: 3105: 3101: 3097: 3094: 3091: 3088: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3082: 3078: 3074: 3070: 3067: 3063: 3059: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3050: 3046: 3045:75.59.203.174 3042: 3031: 3029: 3027: 3023: 3019: 3001: 2997: 2993: 2989: 2986: 2982: 2979: 2976: 2972: 2968: 2964: 2960: 2955: 2951: 2948: 2947: 2946: 2943: 2938: 2934: 2930: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2919: 2915: 2911: 2907: 2903: 2902: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2896: 2891: 2886: 2882: 2878: 2874: 2873: 2872: 2868: 2864: 2860: 2857: 2854: 2850: 2846: 2841: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2835: 2832: 2827: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2807: 2805: 2800: 2798: 2794: 2790: 2782: 2772: 2768: 2764: 2759: 2754: 2753: 2751: 2747: 2743: 2739: 2735: 2734: 2733: 2729: 2725: 2721: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2711: 2707: 2703: 2699: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2685: 2684: 2683: 2682: 2678: 2674: 2665: 2660: 2657: 2655: 2651: 2647: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2639: 2631: 2629: 2628: 2624: 2620: 2615: 2610: 2602: 2598: 2594: 2590: 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2579: 2575: 2571: 2567: 2563: 2559: 2555: 2551: 2543: 2541: 2540: 2536: 2532: 2523: 2511: 2507: 2503: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2492: 2488: 2484: 2480: 2479: 2478: 2475: 2470: 2466: 2462: 2458: 2457: 2456: 2452: 2448: 2444: 2443:Leaving Islam 2440: 2436: 2435: 2434: 2430: 2422: 2416: 2413: 2410: 2407: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2396: 2392: 2387: 2382: 2378: 2374: 2370: 2354: 2350: 2346: 2342: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2333: 2328: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2318: 2314: 2310: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2301: 2296: 2291: 2290: 2289: 2285: 2281: 2276: 2275: 2274: 2273: 2270: 2265: 2258: 2254: 2250: 2245: 2244: 2243: 2242: 2239: 2234: 2229: 2214: 2210: 2206: 2202: 2198: 2194: 2193: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2185: 2181: 2177: 2176: 2173: 2171: 2168: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2149: 2145: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2135: 2130: 2126: 2122: 2115: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2096: 2090: 2082: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2067: 2065: 2064: 2060: 2056: 2051: 2050: 2046: 2042: 2038: 2034: 2029: 2026: 2021: 2017: 2013: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2001: 1997: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1984: 1981: 1975: 1973: 1972: 1968: 1964: 1955: 1953: 1951: 1947: 1943: 1942:208.203.94.34 1939: 1931: 1930: 1926: 1922: 1917: 1915: 1911: 1907: 1903: 1892: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1876: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1870: 1852: 1848: 1844: 1840: 1836: 1832: 1828: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1819: 1814: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1787: 1783: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1773: 1769: 1765: 1761: 1757: 1753: 1749: 1745: 1741: 1740: 1739: 1736: 1731: 1726: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1716: 1712: 1708: 1704: 1700: 1699: 1698: 1697: 1694: 1689: 1684: 1680: 1673: 1670: 1668: 1665: 1663: 1660: 1659: 1658: 1643: 1639: 1635: 1630: 1625: 1621: 1617: 1613: 1609: 1605: 1601: 1597: 1593: 1592: 1591: 1587: 1583: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1573: 1569: 1565: 1564: 1563: 1560: 1559: 1541: 1537: 1536: 1535: 1532: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1521: 1517: 1513: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1504: 1497: 1493: 1489: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1479: 1474: 1470: 1464: 1458: 1453: 1445: 1441: 1437: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1427: 1423: 1419: 1418: 1417: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1400: 1397: 1394: 1391: 1390: 1389: 1383: 1381: 1380: 1376: 1372: 1368: 1365: 1360: 1357: 1356: 1351: 1346: 1339: 1338: 1337: 1336: 1332: 1328: 1323: 1320: 1312: 1311: 1310: 1309: 1308: 1292: 1291: 1289: 1285: 1281: 1280:69.121.51.151 1277: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1258: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1248: 1244: 1240: 1235: 1231: 1230: 1229: 1228: 1224: 1220: 1216: 1215: 1205: 1198: 1195: 1193: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1172: 1168: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1150: 1145: 1144: 1143: 1139: 1135: 1131: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1124: 1120: 1109: 1106: 1103: 1102: 1101: 1100: 1099: 1092: 1086: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1064: 1060: 1055: 1054: 1053: 1052: 1048: 1044: 1035: 1027: 1023: 1019: 1014: 1013: 1012: 1011: 1010: 1009: 1006: 1002: 998: 993: 989: 988: 987: 986: 982: 978: 970: 967: 966: 965: 958: 956: 954: 950: 946: 942: 937: 933: 928: 922: 918: 914: 910: 906: 905: 904: 903: 899: 895: 887: 882: 878: 874: 870: 866: 865:verifiability 862: 858: 857: 856: 855: 852: 850: 837: 835: 834: 830: 826: 822: 819: 811: 795: 792: 791: 790: 783: 782: 781: 772: 771: 770: 767: 765: 756: 755: 754: 750: 746: 742: 741: 740: 737: 735: 726: 725: 724: 720: 716: 712: 708: 707:Eye of Fatima 703: 702: 701: 698: 696: 688: 687: 686: 682: 678: 674: 670: 666: 665: 664: 663: 659: 655: 646: 644: 643: 639: 635: 626: 624: 623: 620: 615: 611: 603: 601: 599: 595: 591: 590:70.66.240.182 587: 581: 574: 569: 567: 562: 561: 560: 559: 555: 551: 538: 534: 530: 525: 524: 523: 520: 518: 509: 508: 507: 503: 499: 495: 490: 486: 485:views on race 482: 478: 473: 472: 471: 468: 466: 458: 454: 450: 446: 445: 444: 443: 439: 435: 431: 427: 423: 407: 403: 399: 395: 394: 393: 389: 385: 381: 377: 375: 371: 367: 363: 359: 358: 357: 354: 352: 344: 340: 339: 338: 334: 330: 326: 322: 318: 313: 312: 311: 310: 307: 303: 299: 295: 294: 293: 292: 288: 284: 280: 276: 271: 268: 262: 261: 256: 254: 253: 249: 245: 236: 233: 232: 230: 225: 222: 221: 219: 218: 217: 215: 207: 205: 204: 200: 196: 192: 188: 180: 178: 176: 172: 168: 164: 151: 148: 144: 143:41.233.95.170 140: 134: 126: 124: 120: 116: 112: 108: 97: 91: 88: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4119: 4115: 4081: 4049:WP:OWNERSHIP 4044: 4031: 4024: 4020: 4016: 3952: 3935: 3901: 3868: 3848: 3844: 3810: 3788: 3656: 3645:Response to 3644: 3600: 3559: 3537: 3535: 3511: 3467: 3439: 3437: 3423: 3408: 3396:Darrenhusted 3377:anti semitic 3370: 3358: 3357: 3349: 3348: 3332:Darrenhusted 3312: 3309: 3306: 3294: 3293: 3285: 3284: 3265: 3219: 3167: 3163: 3136: 3110: 3065: 3035: 3018:98.233.38.29 3014: 2984: 2980: 2974: 2953: 2932: 2928: 2905: 2876: 2852: 2848: 2808: 2801: 2786: 2757: 2669: 2654:WP:CHALLENGE 2635: 2613: 2607:The section 2606: 2558:WP:Splitting 2547: 2527: 2464: 2442: 2438: 2405: 2385: 2376: 2368: 2365: 2308: 2261: 2225: 2118: 2071: 2052: 2039: 2035: 2032: 1994: 1982: 1979: 1959: 1932: 1918: 1896: 1893:Wafaa Sultan 1865: 1763: 1706: 1702: 1682: 1678: 1676: 1656: 1628: 1623: 1615: 1543: 1500: 1475: 1471: 1462: 1456: 1454: 1450: 1404: 1387: 1369: 1366: 1363: 1341: 1324: 1321: 1318: 1306: 1269: 1265: 1261: 1256: 1208: 1201: 1176: 1115: 1096: 1039: 1018:84.13.161.96 991: 973: 968: 962: 930: 929: 926: 923:overbreeding 891: 846: 841: 823: 818:reporting on 817: 815: 786: 785: 777: 776: 761: 731: 692: 650: 630: 607: 578: 565: 563: 547: 514: 462: 418: 348: 278: 277: 274: 266: 263: 242: 211: 191:Turan Dursun 184: 157: 149:) 9 May 2011 137:— Preceding 130: 105:— Preceding 101: 78: 43: 37: 4120:application 4019:their laws 3826:—Preceding 3812:added are: 3657:application 3494:Obsidian123 3471:Doktordoris 3187:Obsidian123 3146:Obsidian123 3124:Obsidian123 3096:Obsidian123 3039:—Preceding 2702:Al-Andalusi 2041:Doktordoris 1996:Doktordoris 1936:—Preceding 1900:—Preceding 1371:Doktordoris 1327:Doktordoris 1274:—Preceding 945:59.93.2.249 939:—Preceding 869:reliability 584:—Preceding 231:"Modood" : 167:24.9.80.160 161:—Preceding 36:This is an 4138:Bless sins 4086:JoshyDinda 3995:JoshyDinda 3965:JoshyDinda 3918:Bless sins 3903:Bless sins 3623:JoshyDinda 3597:Perfection 3412:Mtaylor848 2461:notability 2377:describing 1703:Religion X 1679:Religion X 1467:3: See #2. 1266:criticisms 1243:Space25689 888:Gnosticism 634:Atethnekos 329:Richard001 283:Bless sins 187:Ali Dashti 111:Richard001 3556:Violence? 3452:WP:TIGERS 3440:reporting 2983:has been 2975:something 2875:You say: 2756:someone ' 2746:Noleander 2736:Yes, the 2673:Noleander 2650:WP:Burden 2619:Noleander 2589:Noleander 2574:Noleander 2391:Noleander 2068:Ibn Ishaq 1963:Noleander 1921:Bassplaya 1879:Noleander 1843:Noleander 1841:etc) -- 1798:Noleander 1768:Noleander 1711:Noleander 1634:Noleander 1582:Noleander 1516:Noleander 1488:Noleander 1452:respond: 1436:Noleander 1422:Noleander 1407:Noleander 1183:Noleander 1153:Noleander 1134:Noleander 1119:Noleander 1077:Noleander 1059:Noleander 1043:Noleander 873:Bestofmed 848:ITAQALLAH 812:Criticism 763:ITAQALLAH 745:Mavigogun 733:ITAQALLAH 715:Mavigogun 694:ITAQALLAH 677:Mavigogun 575:Dead Site 529:Mavigogun 516:ITAQALLAH 498:Mavigogun 464:ITAQALLAH 457:POV forks 434:Mavigogun 426:Telescope 350:ITAQALLAH 220:"Watt" : 90:Archive 7 85:Archive 6 79:Archive 5 73:Archive 4 68:Archive 3 60:Archive 1 4124:Student7 4116:separate 4053:Student7 3991:Mutaween 3938:Student7 3875:Islamism 3828:unsigned 3799:ItsZippy 3716:Student7 3686:Student7 3608:Student7 3583:Student7 3543:Logos384 3516:Student7 3381:Satanoid 3317:Satanoid 3268:Satanoid 3205:Whaledad 3170:Student7 3112:islam. 3073:Student7 3041:unsigned 2992:Student7 2959:Student7 2933:en masse 2863:Student7 2811:Student7 2763:Student7 2758:believes 2724:Whaledad 2531:Student7 2502:Student7 2121:Ali Sina 2114:Ali Sina 2012:reliable 1938:unsigned 1902:unsigned 1276:unsigned 1268:and not 1223:contribs 1149:WP:Split 941:unsigned 894:Tourskin 616:Discuss! 586:unsigned 550:Tourskin 366:Opticals 298:Opticals 244:DumZiBoT 163:unsigned 139:unsigned 119:contribs 107:unsigned 3852:elbarck 3444:WP:NOTE 3252:Tropics 2941:Tropics 2894:Tropics 2880:useful. 2830:Tropics 2783:Quality 2473:Tropics 2420:Digiphi 2331:Tropics 2299:Tropics 2268:Tropics 2237:Tropics 2166:Tropics 2133:Tropics 2094:Digiphi 2080:Digiphi 2024:Tropics 1817:Tropics 1734:Tropics 1692:Tropics 1624:exactly 1270:equally 1173:section 932:website 825:Sardaka 398:Merzbow 380:WP:NPOV 362:WP:NPOV 343:WP:NPOV 39:archive 4082:Muslim 3567:COice6 3512:aren't 3448:WP:NOT 3426:Techni 3410:Islam. 2985:erased 2981:No one 2954:myself 2564:, and 2386:cannot 1869:Matt57 1829:; (2) 1602:, and 1572:Matt57 1531:Matt57 1503:Matt57 1478:Matt57 1262:report 997:Rursus 977:Rursus 909:Rursus 673:hadith 669:sunnah 481:racism 279:Reason 4045:allow 3791:WP:3O 3351:Gabr- 3287:Gabr- 3120:page. 2826:Doc] 1764:could 1354:Space 1210:Azure 1001:bork² 981:bork² 934:see: 913:bork² 779:Gabr- 711:Jihad 654:Nevit 16:< 4142:talk 4128:talk 4090:talk 4057:talk 4021:from 3999:talk 3969:talk 3942:talk 3922:talk 3907:talk 3856:talk 3836:talk 3776:talk 3750:talk 3720:talk 3690:talk 3665:talk 3627:talk 3612:talk 3587:talk 3571:talk 3547:talk 3520:talk 3498:talk 3475:talk 3460:(𒁳) 3454:. -- 3446:and 3430:talk 3416:talk 3400:talk 3385:talk 3336:talk 3321:talk 3272:talk 3248:Doc 3233:talk 3209:talk 3191:talk 3174:talk 3150:talk 3128:talk 3100:talk 3077:talk 3049:talk 3022:talk 2996:talk 2963:talk 2937:Doc 2918:(𒁳) 2906:this 2890:Doc 2867:talk 2815:talk 2767:talk 2750:talk 2740:and 2728:talk 2706:talk 2691:and 2677:talk 2623:talk 2593:talk 2578:talk 2535:talk 2506:talk 2491:talk 2483:WP:V 2469:Doc 2451:talk 2427:Talk 2395:talk 2369:only 2349:talk 2341:WP:V 2327:Doc 2317:talk 2295:Doc 2284:talk 2264:Doc 2253:talk 2233:Doc 2209:talk 2184:talk 2162:Doc 2148:talk 2129:Doc 2101:Talk 2087:Talk 2059:(𒁳) 2045:talk 2020:Doc 2000:talk 1967:talk 1946:talk 1925:talk 1910:talk 1883:talk 1847:talk 1813:Doc 1802:talk 1772:talk 1730:Doc 1715:talk 1688:Doc 1638:talk 1586:talk 1568:poll 1540:here 1520:talk 1492:talk 1463:here 1440:talk 1426:talk 1411:talk 1375:talk 1349:From 1344:Them 1331:talk 1284:talk 1247:talk 1219:talk 1213:Fury 1187:talk 1157:talk 1138:talk 1123:talk 1081:talk 1063:talk 1047:talk 1022:talk 949:talk 898:talk 877:talk 867:and 829:talk 749:talk 719:talk 681:talk 671:and 658:talk 638:talk 627:Hume 608:The 594:talk 554:talk 533:talk 502:talk 455:and 438:talk 428:and 402:talk 388:talk 370:talk 333:talk 319:(or 302:talk 287:talk 248:talk 199:talk 171:talk 147:talk 115:talk 4025:did 4017:get 3959:or 3708:KKK 3456:dab 3066:was 3062:KKK 2914:dab 2849:can 2614:and 2309:are 2055:dab 1792:, 1707:all 1629:own 1616:new 1457:and 1257:not 483:or 212:In 4144:) 4130:) 4092:) 4059:) 4032:by 4001:) 3985:, 3971:) 3944:) 3924:) 3909:) 3858:) 3838:) 3778:) 3752:) 3722:) 3692:) 3667:) 3650:: 3629:) 3614:) 3589:) 3573:) 3549:) 3522:) 3500:) 3477:) 3432:) 3418:) 3402:) 3387:) 3360:el 3338:) 3323:) 3296:el 3274:) 3235:) 3211:) 3193:) 3176:) 3152:) 3130:) 3102:) 3079:) 3028:) 3024:) 2998:) 2965:) 2869:) 2853:on 2817:) 2791:, 2769:) 2752:) 2730:) 2708:) 2679:) 2671:-- 2652:, 2648:, 2625:) 2617:-- 2595:) 2580:) 2560:, 2556:, 2537:) 2508:) 2493:) 2485:. 2453:) 2431:) 2397:) 2351:) 2319:) 2286:) 2255:) 2211:) 2203:. 2186:) 2150:) 2105:) 2047:) 2002:) 1969:) 1948:) 1927:) 1912:) 1885:) 1849:) 1804:) 1788:, 1784:, 1774:) 1758:, 1754:, 1750:, 1746:, 1717:) 1640:) 1632:-- 1598:, 1588:) 1580:-- 1529:-- 1522:) 1514:-- 1494:) 1442:) 1428:) 1413:) 1377:) 1333:) 1286:) 1249:) 1225:) 1221:| 1189:) 1159:) 1151:-- 1140:) 1125:) 1117:-- 1083:) 1065:) 1057:-- 1049:) 1024:) 1003:) 983:) 951:) 915:) 900:) 879:) 831:) 788:el 751:) 721:) 683:) 660:) 640:) 596:) 556:) 535:) 504:) 440:) 404:) 390:) 372:) 335:) 304:) 289:) 250:) 201:) 173:) 117:• 64:← 4140:( 4126:( 4088:( 4055:( 3997:( 3967:( 3940:( 3920:( 3905:( 3891:) 3854:( 3834:( 3774:( 3748:( 3718:( 3688:( 3663:( 3625:( 3610:( 3585:( 3569:( 3545:( 3518:( 3496:( 3473:( 3428:( 3414:( 3398:( 3383:( 3334:( 3319:( 3270:( 3231:( 3207:( 3189:( 3172:( 3148:( 3126:( 3098:( 3075:( 3047:( 3020:( 2994:( 2961:( 2865:( 2813:( 2765:( 2748:( 2726:( 2704:( 2675:( 2621:( 2591:( 2576:( 2533:( 2504:( 2489:( 2449:( 2423:( 2408:. 2393:( 2347:( 2315:( 2282:( 2251:( 2207:( 2182:( 2146:( 2097:( 2083:( 2043:( 1998:( 1965:( 1944:( 1923:( 1908:( 1881:( 1845:( 1800:( 1770:( 1713:( 1636:( 1584:( 1557:v 1554:c 1551:n 1548:e 1545:Z 1518:( 1490:( 1465:. 1438:( 1424:( 1409:( 1373:( 1329:( 1282:( 1245:( 1237:( 1217:( 1185:( 1155:( 1136:( 1121:( 1079:( 1061:( 1045:( 1020:( 999:( 979:( 947:( 911:( 896:( 883:. 875:( 827:( 747:( 717:( 679:( 656:( 636:( 592:( 552:( 531:( 500:( 436:( 400:( 386:( 368:( 331:( 300:( 285:( 246:( 197:( 169:( 145:( 113:( 50:.

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