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did not make is that Turner's focus is on German business, and Sutton focuses on international and
American business. Further Turner only looks at political contributions and not at the "war machine." Much of Sutton's work is now being vindicated by recent research and released archival information and Turner was in the middle of this before he died. When Ford and GM were came under fire recently for complicity with the Nazis and use of slave labor during the war, Ford opened up it's archives to the public and apologized while GM kept theirs closed and commissioned and expert to examine them and compile a report. That expert was none other than Henry Ashby Turner Jr, corporate shill. He painted the most favorable picture of GM as he could, and his book General Motors and the Nazis was based on this white wash. Compare this to award winning journalist Edwin Black's work on the subject, try Nazi Nexus. Watch Hitler's American Business Partners and Banking with Hitler. Sutton may not have been perfect but he was way ahead of his time with his correct assertions.
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state "Stalin, through his bank robberies and gangsterism became Lenin's main fundraiser." Of course After the revolution the
Soviets established their own banks, then confiscated wealth from the Czar and the aristocracy, so I really don't see why they needed Wall street money, they were doing well on their own. Either way very little foregn money was actually linked to them. Not to mention the Soviet government was one of the most contained on Earth. About 100% of capital investment was made by them. Based on everything I read the USA and USSR traded very little with each other, especially in the context of global trade. Mostly each side bought raw goods. Furs, caviar, lumber and ores from the USSR and grain, fertilizer and cotton from the USA. Technical parts, machine tools and the like constituted an insignificant amount either way, and that did go BOTH ways.
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technology that exists instead of wasting your time developing it. Governments work with other governments that have technology they want, firms work with other firms when they are in need of technical assistance to. This isn't a conspiracy. Its what all firms and governments do. Not to mention this was mostly happening mostly in the 30's when money was scare to be made in
America. Of course the Soviets did do a lot of good work developing physics, chemistry, and aerospace technology on their own and much of the industries Sutton points to as being assisted by US industries were already largely foreign owned during the Russian empire(oil stands out).
1647:"The persistence with which the Jewish-conspiracy myth has been pushed suggests that it may well be a deliberate device to divert attention from the real issues and the real causes. The evidence provided in this book suggests that the New York bankers who were also Jewish had relatively minor roles in supporting the Bolsheviks, while the New York bankers who were also Gentiles (Morgan, Rockefeller, Thompson) had major roles. What better way to divert attention from the real operators than by the medieval bogeyman of anti-Semitism?" (Source: Sutton, Antony C.
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theory that Hitler's rise was engineered by Wall Street. That's a gross overstatement. Sutton offers some interesting information about some possible assistance which Hitler may have received in some specific instances, but not enough to contradict Turner's basic argument that other German conservative parties received more assistance and that Hitler's rise was primarily the result of his being underestimated by them rather than any specific funding done with the intent of putting Hitler in.
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and shrilly calling him that tired old insult of "corporate shrill." Edwin Black is a far left conspiracy theorist and lair (his misinformation and spin about IBM for instance was used in a lawsuit and it was tossed out) and his "awards" are phony garbage "awarded" by far left organizations and thus are meaningless other than to
Commies. Try your tired Marxist crap somewhere else.
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sources about U.S Soviet trade relations before and after WW2. Sutton basically exaggerates Soviet "dependency" on the US, ignores their own technological achievements, projects insidious ambitions of the
American firms involved in Soviet trade and fail to take relativism, context and nuance into his arguments.
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For the record Sutton's early work was in fact published by the Hoover
Institution which is a unit Stanford University. He used to be listed as a fellow on the Hoover Institute website but no longer is. You can search his name on this stanford hyperlink and clearly see his name listed as a reference
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You're definition mongering. The page specifically says that is the French use of the word. Within
Marxism it essentially boils down to "ruling class" people who own productive forces. He differentiated between petit and haute bourgeoise but never went very far in depth in describing the former. The
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How he defines "invention" is also incredibly dubious. 90-95% of Soviet technology was just "Western". Does this mean the US automotive industry is a shame created by a shadowy conspiracy to import the combustion engines(developed in Europe) to
America?Russia had tractors before the revolution, they
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Marxists.org even has a book from the 20's detailing Soviet Trade relations with
America. If there was some secret conspiracy to set up the Soviet Union I doubt Marxists would openly share this book online. Post WW2 trade was more limited but you can find plenty of work on it as well in main stream
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I read a lot about the Soviet Union and study its history. Its no secret that its early growth required working with
American firms. The Russian empire was one of the least developed nations on Earth and was still essentially an agrarian feudal state. To me it makes complete sense to just go get the
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Going through his surprisingly short books on wall street financing the nazis and commies I found incredible weak arguments backed up by a pretty small list of only moderately impressive sources he is forced to reuse. I'm not going to say there isn't some good stuff in there but there are mainstream
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Its hard to find criticism for just the reason the mention. Barely anyone out of the world of conspiracy theory uses this material. However the facts he uses are actually well known amongst foreign policy experts, historians and some marxists. Plenty of books and newspaper articles going back to the
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has cited in their above post includes an appendix dedicated to this very subject: "The Jewish Conspiracy Theory of the Bolshevik Revolution." The appendix is listed in the table of contents, making it difficult to miss even in a cursory examination of the book. The appendix addresses the theory as
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Incorrect. From Knowledge (XXG) itself: "In English, the term 'bourgeoisie' is often used to denote the middle classes." And, "As the economic managers of the (raw) materials, the goods, and the services, and thus the capital (money) produced by the feudal economy, the term "bourgeoisie" evolved to
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It isn't even presented as a controversial work here. What is implied by "Wall Street" is Jewish bankers and what is hinted at by connecting them to "Bolsheviks", is the Nazi-era theory of capitalism and communism being "controlled by Jews." The problem is, the Nazi-era Germans used this theory to
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has anyone noticed that the Richard Pipes quote has been removed? Professor Richard Pipes of Harvard noted: "In his three-volume detailed account of Soviet Purchases of Western Equipment and Technology ..." Sutton comes to conclusions that are uncomfortable for many businessmen and economists. For
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Typical Marxist crap. Sutton is not being "vindicated" by 'recent research' or anything else, as all his info is old stuff that academics already knew, all he did was spin it to suit his fanaticism and spout disinformation on it. As for Turner, you'll have to do a lot better then personal attacks
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Turner does no such thing. Sutton is not even mentioned in mentioned in Turner's work, though he goes after Poole who wrote WHO FUNDED HITLER and Poole is not even an academic in this field. I think the most important and simple distinction to understand between the two books which you obviously
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Well at the very least one should include a listing of Henry Ashby Turner, GERMAN BIG BUSINESS AND THE RISE OF HITLER, as an illustration of what is wrong with Sutton's work. Turner debunks the notion that Hitler was brought to power predominantly by big business, whereas as Sutton circulates the
1810:, but now that Iâve read the page over again I realize that I overlooked the extent to which that whole section relied on the one source alone. My apologies! I believe the cited interview reasonably meets the first four criteria, but I agree that too much of the article was based on such sources.
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Finally there's a very good book called "Young Stalin". Its incredibly well written and sourced and details much of Stalin's activities before the Bolshevik Revolution in Georgia and Azerbaijan. One conclusion based on all of the bank robberies and extortions Stalin was engaged in made the author
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This is nothing but bogus speculation that demonstrates a blatant unfamiliarity with Suttonâs work or even the basic orientation of his positions. In many of his books and interviews, he makes his opinion on this matter quite clear: the Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy theory is unfounded and likely
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I'll try to be fair. His three volumes have are an impressive 1200+ pages altogether. But, despite some interesting facts, some useful anecdotes and thought provoking quotes he was only able to find abut 200 contracts for one book. This was over a span of 15-20 years, which in global historical
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Sutton is a -hm- highly controversial author, his books are mainly cited in conspiraca websites and lack seriousness and deeper understanding and research (you better do not build a theory on sutton but at least try to cross check his findings with other, more serios sources. When I did I found
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were just really bad. Do we include this in the page on the list of Russian inventions? Did the technology they got include Sputnik, the AK-47, leg lengthening surgery, blood banks, computers and cell phones? There are so many lists of "Soviet inventions" online it seems outright strange.
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also has a 5-part test that limits use of sources to describe themselves. The article has been tagged for overuse of primary sources since 2017. I added some inline tags. I suggest that unreferenced factual claims, and interpretations not referenced to independent secondary
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I guess you didn't notice the quote from Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor to President Carter, or Richard Pipes. It needs to be included in bibliography, maybe you could be constructive and take care of that rather than making erroneous criticisms.
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I'm changing "using membership lists purportedly revealing". It's not purported. Once you know what you are looking for, the list is actually right here for all to see, but a few years behind the times, in the Yale Library. That's where I found it and got it. Steranko.
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If you have references to published criticism of an article subject, add it to the article. If you donâ't, don't deface the article with tags. If no further information is submitted, other than your own personal research, I will consider this dispute resolved. -
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sources, they say similar things to Sutton but without the cryptic language or the rightous indignation about how they are being persecuted by a shadowy elite. Knowledge (XXG) itself uses sources from the 20's and 30's on the page about Amtorg
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context, is almost nothing. A few hundred or thousand engineers and business people in the entire Soviet economy is hardly condemnation of the entire Soviet economy. I'll quote one Amazon user's review of another conspiracy book
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nearly all of what he wrote in the chapter counter researched by me - from his "most important" skull and bones book- to be false). I do not see any criticism of Sutton in the article, what makes him look like a serious source.
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I see that quote is there but I'm not sure, is that actually said in his book "Survival Is Not Enough: Soviet Realities and America's Future (Simon & Schuster;1984)"? I am not sure, haven't read it.
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also denote the middle class â the businessmen and businesswomen who accumulated, administered, and controlled the capital that made possible the development of the bourgs into cities."
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It additionally seems worth noting that the above user "has been blocked indefinitely because CheckUser evidence confirms that the account's owner has abusively used multiple accounts."
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What's the story of this section? Is it an autobiographical sketch? What's the source? It should either be placed in quotation marks or edited for consistency with the other material. -
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cover up the fact that the German Empire, not Wall Street, had initially helped assist the October Revolution (this was embarrassing for Hitler and co to try and wriggle out of).
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I find earlier versions to be more descriptive, but some of your edits are also constructive, but, imo, bordering on POV. The revision before yours says:
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I don't see what qualms you have here... If you could combine this current revision and the revision before into one article, that'd be awesome.
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this is an error on Sutton's part as Marx does not talk much about a middle class, Marx defines bourgeoisie as the upper class the rulers.
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Sutton is a conspiracy theorist who,at best,makes vague connections.The fact that all sources are Sutton makes this article a joke.
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espoused by other authors, briefly reviews the literature often cited to support the claim, and concludes thusly:
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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There's barely any information in the article. The other people posting seem to be arguing over tiny crumbs.
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this reason his work tends to be either dismissed out of hand as 'extreme' or, more often, simply ignored."
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Do you have sources or is it original research because you read his books and disagree for whatever reason?
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I wonder how much or if any more Sutton crosses the line to conspiracy, which i find a waste of time.
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A combination of both. Sutton's works were surprisingly short and poorly sourced in my opinion.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20140304040557/http://velesova-sloboda.vho.org/geo/trilaterals.html
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material and lack the required references to reliable, independent secondary sources. Per
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I am amazed that there is no more direct criticism in the article of Sutton's book,
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This article was vandalized by someone who made it appear that Sutton's work done
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Large parts of this article are unsourced or original interpretations of
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This argument on Sutton part seems as a fallacy of redefining words.
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This is clearly POV:ed.. More a hagiography than actual facts.
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http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/notes/2009/N2682.pdf
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The War on Gold, by Antony C. Sutton (â76 Press, 1976).jpg
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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19:This is the
1759:Filmography
1442:Popish Plot
1387:âPreceding
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1299:governments
1025:Popish Plot
968:76.182.4.49
962:âPreceding
940:âPreceding
918:âPreceding
896:âPreceding
842:âPreceding
729:Structure:
199:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1873:Categories
1733:WP:PRIMARY
1721:WP:PRIMARY
1586:Report bug
1229:References
1079:References
1787:applies?
1569:this tool
1562:this tool
1351:Apparatus
1285:with the
1254:Vandalism
1169:karl marx
617:Biography
455:Economics
446:Economics
402:Economics
296:Biography
228:Biography
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1854:Llll5032
1824:Thanks,
1804:Llll5032
1789:Llll5032
1783:and how
1746:Llll5032
1575:Cheers.â
1421:unsigned
1401:contribs
1393:Steranko
1389:unsigned
1324:unsigned
1291:Stanford
1195:unsigned
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690:criteria
233:Military
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1842:WP:INDY
1763:Hello,
1729:WP:PSTS
1659:p. 189.
1469:my edit
1305:Copysan
1173:in his
587:on the
560:History
551:History
507:History
482:on the
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1834:WP:DUE
1781:WP:DUE
1268:shared
205:scale.
126:Google
1742:WP:RS
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1858:talk
1850:NPOV
1816:talk
1793:talk
1771:and
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1723:and
1706:talk
1672:talk
1627:talk
1446:talk
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1397:talk
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1289:and
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950:talk
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883:talk
869:talk
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285:and
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1848:or
1846:NOR
1802:Hi
1700:. â
1543:RfC
1513:to
1503:to
1493:to
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1342:POV
1293:'s
1264:for
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474:Low
176:TWL
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