Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 18

2348:

or their campaigns for office. Trump has never held public office or run any serious campaign before, so there is no opportunity to list his actions while in office. If you were to include all the 'political positions' that are covered on Clinton's and Pence's pages under their tenure in office, their list of political positions is significantly longer than Trump's. If you check Tim Kaine's page, his 'political positions' section is of similar length to Trump (even when you exclude many of Kaine's positions are implicitly covered under his tenure as Mayor, Governor and Senator). I think it would be malpractice of Knowledge to not have content on the political positions of one of two individuals likely to hold the most important office in the world. Isn't that (i) one of the key reasons people check this article (the 2016 race) + (ii) vastly more salient (or at least equally important to) three months from election day than his entertainment and business career?

2083:"At a White House news conference on August 2, 2016, Obama delivered an extraudionarly harsh denunciation of Trump, stating that "The Republican nominee is unfit to serve as president. He keeps on proving it. The notion that he would attack a Gold Star family that made such extraudionarly sacrifices on behalf of our country, the fact that he doesn't appear to have basic knowledge of critical issues in Europe, the Middle East, in Asia, means that he's woefully unprepared to do this job. There has to be a point at which you say, 'Enough.' What does this say about your party that this is your standard-bearer? This isn't a situation where you have an episodic gaffe. This is daily and weekly where they are distancing themselves from statements he's making. There has to be a point at which you say, 'This is not somebody I can support for president of the United States, even if he purports to be a member of my party." 4156:

LBJ, How Many Kids Did You Kill Today? Not to mention, there's no expectation for any young man to deliberately volunteer for Vietnam given the nature of the war and the circumstances at the time. The only men who did that were in prison or headed for prison and the judge gave them a choice, thanks to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's clever scheme to send young men desperate to avoid prison for likely ginned up charges who were represented by incompetent public defenders. Almost all were young, poorly educated black men. They got their records wiped for agreeing to this suicide mission. Of course, so many of them were killed, far more than any other demographic of soldiers. I suppose we could add that Trump also was not a young black man headed for prison. But we've not got RS for that. And 'implying' anything in a BLP seems counter to the rules.

236:

that the US automatically extends NATO security guarantees, tying them to unspecified 'obligations' that NATO members must do in order to get the US to defend them. He has also suggested that he would leave NATO unless his unspecified changes are made to the alliance. Both of these steps go against post-WWII bipartisan consensus and would have global ramifications. The third is about Trump considering recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and removing sanctions on Russia related to its support for Russian separatists in the Ukraine. The fourth is about Trump's urging Russia to conduct cyberespionage against Hillary Clinton. All these edits have been sourced, have been up on the 'Political Positions of Donald Trump' for some time and without challenge.

4070:

that "you've not got a source. This is a BLP. We don't make stuff up about living people and hope we find a source later." I have given you verbatim quotes from the New York Times, CNN, and the LA Times to establish that I have sources for everything discussed. You won't discuss it at your user talk page, so I'm asking you to please retract your accusations here. The reason why I inserted a "cn" tag regarding Vietnam is because the sentence required sourcing in view (e.g.) of the other editor's assertion that Trump did not volunteer for "alternative public service". I only inserted the material about protests temporarily because I could not revert yet due to 1RR. In any event, I

994:: "During an interview for the book, Mr. Trump removed a shoe to show the author the cause of his medical deferment. 'Heel spurs,' he said. 'On both feet.'" The NYT article also says this about the book: "Mr. Trump described his education, business life, marriages and childhood in extensive interviews with Michael D’Antonio, a Pulitzer Prize-winning former reporter at Newsday. Mr. D’Antonio’s biography of Mr. Trump, 'Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success,' will be published Sept. 22." The NYT article is dated September 8, 2015. So, I will restore some modified language: "in both feet according to an interview for a 2015 biography". 364:

covered under her tenure as first lady (attitude towards healthcare), her voting in the Senate (a bunch of positions), her Senate and Presidential campaigning (lots of positions there) and her record as SoS. By no standard is Trump's section on political positions too long (compare to all the political positions covered under Tim Kaine's, Mike Pence's, Obama's and HRC's pages) and the notion that Trump's position on Pakistan, and the redundant text on the minimum wage and the Iraq War are more notable than Trump's statements on NATO, WTO and Russia is frankly incomprehensible (do you seriously believe that?).

1965:

they were getting ready to draft him. Trump says he produced a letter from a doctor. During that exam, the military doctor classified him as 1-Y, a deferment for a minor medical aliment, which Trump says was bone spurs. This classification and it's meaning in terms of continuing draft eligibility seems to be misunderstood either deliberately or innocently by reporters. 1-Y still made Trump eligible for the draft but only in a national emergency. Well, turns out anything can qualify as a national emergency. The Selective Service need only declare an emergency in providing troops for combat, for example.

1188:

not quoting the DOD or Selective Service policy. They are simply making an observation. Find the DOD policy on that and you can add that. I think, knowing what I know of that era, that Trump was right to believe he could be reevaluated. I say that, because to him it was a minor defect, and like most students of the day, he had a lot of misinformation about what could and could not happen next. But I can assure you, the military doesn't want anything to do with people who have any orthopedic problems. Those are major issues for them, although it seemed minor to Mr Trump.

4054:"Trump was not drafted." There follows the deferments and his lottery number which fully explain why he wasn't drafted. Saying he did not serve seems to imply something else. Had he been in military service, like George Bush, and did not get assigned to Vietnam, then yes, that would be appropriate. However, he was never in service, therefore he had no opportunity to serve in Vietnam. He was not drafted. Full stop. And you did not have a source which is why you put in 'citation needed.' And I've no idea what you're talking about regarding Trump University. 1977:

together. The problem article is the New York Times, and in reading that, it seems more like an opinion piece than an objective news article. On top of that, in December 1971, the Selective Service eliminated all 1-Y classifications and changed them to 4F. They changed Trumps classification in 1972, but by then he had already been eliminated from any future draft by his high lottery number. Once his birthdate had been chosen, it could not be chosen again. So you see, it is the 1-Y deferment that is irrelevant and not the lottery number.

1144:

others down and getting people killed, not to mention they cost the DOD lots of money in hospital bills and long term disability. This edit you want to make: "But the publicly available draft records of Mr. Trump include the letters 'DISQ' next to his exam date, with no notation indicating that he would be re-examined." Is Synthetic. Where is there a RS that says, "If Trump were going to be reevaluated, there would have been a notation for a reevaluation." You don't have that, so adding in that line, is synthetic.

2910:"Trump was noting that Ghazala Khan stood silent next to her husband for seven minutes Thursday night... Trump was asked about the speech... He said: ‘He was, you know, very emotional... If you look at his wife, she was standing there, she had nothing to say... Maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say. You tell me.’ ... Her husband said later: ‘... I was strengthened by her presence... So her being there was the strength that I could hold my composure. I am much weaker than she is in such matters.’" 4033:

accusation that "You've not got a source for any such thing." Please retract that accusation in view of the quote I gave above per the NY Times: "'I was never a fan of the Vietnam War,' he said. 'But I was never at the protest level, either, because I had other things to do.'" I only inserted that material temporarily until 1RR allows me to revert, and it is entirely accurate. Also, please retract your accusation that I have made up false information about Trump University. Thanks.

166:

mentioned are all prominent politicians with long governing or legislative records. As a result, their 'political positions' are chiefly covered under campaigns and their tenures as governors/senators, which is not the case with Trump who has no political experience. If the 'positions' that are currently covered under Mike Pence's tenure as governor and congressman were turned into a 'political positions' section, he'd have one longer than Trump. The same with HRC.

31: 3358:

runs with it as the authoritative truth). Which is why this very same organization conducted a comprehensive poll over the next two days. Knowledge uses reliable sources. Instant polls are not, as the NYT polling standards make clear. The CNN/ORC and Gallup surveys released two days are. As for your last point, Knowledge does not rely on cooky "unskewered" polls from some random site no one has heard of.

3545:, so sorry I added my comment to a section that I thought would get Bishonen's attention, as I thought perhaps she was keeping an eye on this page for ArbCom purposes. My edit has absolutely nothing to do with the other editor you mentioned. Not related at all. I did leave a note on your talk page, btw. As it turns out, Bishonen and I have sorted that bit. Sorry for the confusion. 2955:

career. WP:NOT#NEWS suggests the reason, in part. There are plenty of sources, but it is far too early to tell. I would keep it out for now, and if he were to lose the election look back later to see if this is attributed by the sources to be one of the relevant or defining issues. Otherwise, there are reasons why we have sub-articles about campaigns, political careers, etc. -

1032:

and also contract the flu; they both can explain why I took a sick day from work, and saying one explains the sick day while the other does not is incorrect. Anyway, a NY Times article today reports that Trump believed he was subject to medical reexamination because the condition was temporary (the NYT says it's treatable "through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery").

3971:. In addition, I spent an entire morning trying to sort out your insistence that bits about his draft lottery number and his 1-Y status did or did not matter. I simply could not discern what the nuance was there until I'd sorted the entire sequence of events which the sources conveniently have obscured. I pointed that out on the talk page where this discussion belongs. 1318:

disagree with the NYT and Trump himself that Trump's condition was not permanent, still a reexamination might have revealed that the original diagnosis was not entirely correct, or that the condition was not so severe as to justify a deferment. Anyway, do you think it's proper for this BLP to say in Knowledge's voice that the high lottery number was "irrelevant"?

1971:

Had Trump's birthdate been given a lower number, say under 140, he would indeed have been drafted. So the high number was not irrelevant as a New York Times article has a Selective Service guy saying. On the contrary, it was the thing that exempted Trump and no doubt he was well aware of his status and sweated out that drawing like everybody else did.

2813:"Political theater" is what Donald Trump's campaign is all about, as he would be the first to say. And while he may not have initiated it (since he was responding to an interviewer's questions), he certainly has kept it up. More to the point, the national media of all stripes have kept it up. This is still front page news, several days later. -- 1109:. Trump is probably right that if he still had an active number and it had been called, he would still have been required to report. They could have reevaluated him and because he had an orthopedic issue, would probably have disqualified him again. Since there is no longer a draft, it seems moot. Are you trying to say he was a draft dodger? 953:

by other people as well. You probably know who you are, but I'll give examples on request. Please remember, everybody, that the article is subject to discretionary sanctions per the warning at the top, and that this is a collaborative encyclopedia, not a venue for quarrels or attacks. Comment on content, not contributors.

3912:

Please note that it was another editor (not me) who started editing that sentence today, by saying he didn't volunteer. Very few people volunteered for that war, and in any event this BLP should not be a list of all the things Trump has decided he would not do voluntarily. Such a list would be infinite.

3911:

About Trump University, I have responded at the article talk page. About Vietnam, it is absolutely true that he did not protest that War, as he himself has said. As soon as I am allowed to revert again, I intend to shorten that entire sentence to simply say that he didn't serve in the Vietnam War.

3510:

SW3 5DL, your link doesn't work for me. Are you and Dervorguilla changing the subject to a different user in mid discussion? That's confusing, and in any case it is best to call attention to diffs you think are problematic at the admin's talk page, rather than here on the talk page; here we shouldn't

3372:

Huh? First of all, how dare you say I'm the only one who thinkgs something. Are you serious? Stop living in a world of your own please. Second of all, you straight up ignored what I said about these polls being majority democrats giving their opinion. How is that fair? Also, polling averages are full

3166:

We would need to confirm that with polling though, which can be a bit hard. It's unclear why his poll numbers are slipping at the moment. It could be many of the numerous things he's said over the last few days or even just still be part of Clinton's convention bounce. Nate Silver says that this is a

2475:

I don't think that explanation stands up. First, his take on Afghanistan is a current position (leave troops there). Second, Trump cites his wisdom on Iraq and Libya repeatedly on the campaign trail (often incorrectly), as such they are huge parts of the campaign. Third, candidates' positions on Iraq

2347:

I think it's absolutely essential to have a concise collection of his political positions on signature issues and highly salient matters in the main article. If you check other politicians' pages, their political positions will usually be implicitly covered under their tenure as congressmen/governors

2193:

I agree with MelanieN. I don't think this belongs on his bio. Obama's comments occurred within the context of Trump's presidential campaign. It is certainly appropriate on the campaign page, but not here. As to the section on this article regarding his presidential campaign, it should not be included

2059:

The quote was way, way too long. If it is to be included here, it must be in the context of simply saying "Trump's statements regarding the Khan family have received widespread condemnation from McCain, Ryan, and President Obama" after we include a sentence or two on Trump's Khan feud (if that is to

1810:

What exactly is the point you're trying to make with these edits and inserting the additional material into the footnote? The information on his draft status and his student deferments seems straight forward to me. I am particularly concerned about the last sentence in that paragragh. Forgive me, but

1659:

The recent New York Times article does not deny that the high lottery number helped to keep Trump out of Vietnam, as discussed above in the TLDR material. Think about it: if Trump had a low draft number and had been called up for service, he would have been re-examined because heel spurs can heal or

1187:

No. You can't. That's the New York Times synthesizing. In this instance, they are not reliable. They are just making an observation. Where is it written in DOD policy that the records must indicate if there is to be a reevaluation? Is there even a box or column for it to check it off? The NYTimes are

1079:

exam to check on his bone spurs, had his draft number been called. “I would have had to go eventually because that was a minor medical....' But the publicly available draft records of Mr. Trump include the letters 'DISQ' next to his exam date, with no notation indicating that he would be re-examined.

1078:

Because of his medical exemption, his lottery number would have been irrelevant, said Richard Flahavan, a spokesman for the Selective Service System, who has worked for the agency for three decades....Still, Mr. Trump, in the interviews, said he believed he could have been subject to another physical

4155:

He simply did not demonstrate any behaviors that would even remotely suggest he would volunteer. Also, 'things he didn't do,' is a silly concept. He didn't protest the war. He didn't burn his draft card. He didn't neglect his studies. He didn't protest in front of the White House screaming Hey! Hey!

3315:

The point is, polls conducted long after the speech are unreliable, as people have been influenced by the media. That's why the CNN/ORC instant poll should be used. This is not rocket science. Also, why is there a need to mention how many particular convention bounce points a candidate received in a

2920:

compilation.) A fair paraphrase: When asked about Khizr Khan's speech, Trump said he appeared very emotional, whereas his wife, who was standing next to him, had nothing to say. He added that "maybe" someone hadn't allowed her to say anything. Khan replied that his wife was better at maintaining her

2872:

I'm not accustomed to citing rules in my editing so I may get this wrong but as far as I understand it, the exceptions to "WP:NOTNEWS" are "extended and in-depth news coverage", having "demonstrable effect or impact (such as political controversy, troop movements, economic changes, etc.)" and common

1976:

This is likely why he says the lottery kept him out of the draft. It did. So to keep adding in the bit about the high draft number being irrelevant is not a good idea. I know we don't go by truth, necessarily, we go by reliable sources. But looking at bits from all the other sources puts the picture

1370:

opine that the high lottery number was irrelevant, given that the reliable sources don't say it was irrelevant (the NYT did quote a former Selective Service official saying it was irrelevant, but the NYT refrained from confirming that in its own voice, and ABC also indicated there is no proof it was

1317:

As I said above, the NYT reports that Trump's condition was treatable "through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery". Trump himself agrees that it was not a permanent condition ("I would have had to go eventually because that was a minor medical — it was called 'minor medical'"). Even if you

1301:

I wasn't implying you had. It's just that the reader should know that 4 deferments was exactly what he had to do. It wasn't like he was getting some special privilege. On your question about getting reevaluated, bone spurs do not resolve on their own, and surgery at that time, during the 60s and 70s

1267:

I only object to the NYTimes making an observation and not showing actual DOD policy on that. btw, Trump received 4 student deferments because students had to reapply constantly to prove they were still enrolled full time and carrying a full course load and satisfactory GPA. He got 4 deferments, one

1233:

I think it was relevant to him and believe him when he says he thought the high number kept him from getting drafted. Back then, it was like having a sword hanging over your head, and was a daily stressor for all military aged males at that time with or without deferments for any reason. People were

1031:

I think what ABC was saying is that the medical deferment allowed him to avoid the draft, and at the same time the high lottery number allowed him to avoid the draft; they both had the same effect, so saying that one did help him and one didn't is not necessarily correct. Just like if I break a leg

643:

There's nothing "indiscriminate" about the removal of content that had no consensus to be here. It was just simply put in the article. This article is under strict sanctions, and editors are therefore not allowed to dump a bunch of content here with no prior attempt to get consensus for their edits.

298:

I'm not necessarily supporting a trim. I frankly don't think that the section on Trump's political positions should be shortened (nor do I think it's consistent with how other politicians' pages look - see my response to CFredkin). I'm just saying that if length is the only thing keeping out Trump's

165:

I disagree. Tim Kaine has a longer section strictly on political positions (note that I'm not including all the implicit positions that are from his tenure as mayor, governor and senator - if those were included, his political positions section would be vastly longer). The other individuals that you

4140:

We don't need to say it explicitly. But it might be useful to imply it (by using general language about not having served) because that might appease the editor who thought it was important (thereby contributing to stability of this article), and of course many sources confirm that he didn't serve

3939:

Per LA Times: "Curiel’s membership was disclosed in the questionnaire he submitted to the Senate Judiciary Committee when he was nominated for a seat on the federal bench in 2012. He also listed several other organizations, including a life membership in the Hispanic National Bar Assn. That group,

3771:

Absolutely disagree with that. Inserting edits into sources to draw attention to points you want to make, seems like an end run around the chore of obtaining consensus. And do please remove that edit you made regarding the draft. Firstly, you've not got consensus for such an addition, and secondly,

3297:

So after this, the Gallup poll (which by the way, if you look into it, are majorty democrat) is way worse than the instant poll, because people have been influenced by the media. I mean, it's not some kind of a secret. And by the way, even CNN tried to hide their instant poll, because it didn't fit

1970:

Then in December 1969, the draft lottery was created to address the needs for more troops in Vietnam. Because Trump was only a 1-Y, he was eligible to participate in this draft lottery. However, he received a high number, around 356, which is nearly at the top end of 'never going to get called up.'

1964:

Actually, I've been looking into this. Trump's lottery number was not irrelevant, though it has been made to seem so in a New York Times article. After Trump graduated from UPenn, he was given a 1-A classification in July, 1968. In October, 1968 Trump was given another military medical exam because

1948:

I support whichever editor created the "Trump has said, "I actually got lucky because I had a very high draft number", but because of his medical exemption, his lottery number was irrelevant." version of this paragraph that existed earlier today because it is very NPOV. The version later today that

1825:

I'm not trying to make any particular point, just trying to present pertinent information from reliable sources. The statement "though it is unclear whether the high draft number provided him with any protection that was not already provided by the medical deferment" simply reflects that the cited

1601:

TLDR. I did notice someone saying that something in the New York Times article was "synthesis" and therefore not reliable. Hogwash. When a Times news story states a fact, it's about as reliable as it gets. In any case, I'm reading a lot of hot air here. Any content needs to be supported by reliable

1143:

You're synthesizing here. You don't understand. The military doesn't want anybody with anything wrong wit the feet. They are soldiers. They do a lot of walking, carrying a 40 lb pack, a very heavy weapon, and very heavy ammo. People with ortho problems create problems in the field, like slowing the

952:

from Donald Trump-related pages because of personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith, and generally lowering the tone on this page. (Please don't name them here if you happen to know who they are; naming and shaming is never what article talk is for.) I see some unnecessarily personalised comments

583:

OK, would you be fine with allowing my edits in until you have reached a consensus to go with your proposal to revamp the section (which seems more relevant for a separate discussion)? Because as it stands, my edits, which are all covered extensively and in-depth by reliable news sources around the

348:

I still believe the section is already much too long. I also don't agree with the notion that Hillary's career in politics justifies her having 360 words in the corresponding section in her bio compared to 2020 for Trump. Hillary has not held political office for 4 years, and did not address many

235:

The first is about his position on the WTO: Trump wants to renegotiate WTO or leave it (this was in response to a question to how he'd get the WTO to get along with his 15-35% tariffs. This goes against bipartisan consensus, and would have global ramifications. The second is about how Trump rejects

4069:

I am not going to go in circles with you anymore about how this particular material should be edited about Vietnam. Vastly more serious is your accusation that, "You've not got a source for any such thing" regarding material I inserted about Vietnam, and your accusation regarding Trump University

3357:

No one, except you I guess, considers an instant poll more reliable than normal comprehensive polls. They don't even release methodology and full results for them. They are meant for instant coverage on the TV network that conducts it and not more than that (though it's unsurprising that Breitbart

2741:

article. How can anybody answer that question posed by George Stephanopoulos over the weekend, unless they had a child who died in the military? It's a Clinton talking point and belongs on the presidential campaign page. This is a BLP and the items that belong here are to man, not his presidential

1426:

Perhaps they wouldn't confirm the quote from the Selective Service guy for the same reason they wouldn't confirm the quote from Trump about it: neutrality, uncertainty, et cetera. Or perhaps the NYT knew the Selective Service guy was full of it but wanted to quote someone disagreeing with Trump.

1363:

The DOD has never had any problem taking draftees who once had a foot condition that has since completely resolved, or that has sufficiently resolved, or that has been found to be not as severe as originally believed. As for going with what Trump believes, I'm not sure it would be useful for this

1203:

If the New York Times is "just making an observation" then I fail to understand how they could be guilty of unreliable synthesis. Incidentally, please note that I'm not the one who inserted the NYT article into this BLP. Anyway, before we discuss whether the NYT is being unreliable, how about we

400:

That's a completely different rationale. It sounds like you need to create a talk for that specifically and obtain consensus rather than hold up content indiscriminately that no one else has expressed disagreement with while you flip through different reasons in inconsistent ways to exclude it. If

4172:

First of all, there would be absolutely nothing contrary to the rules in saying "Trump did not serve in Vietnam". Second, I have strongly opposed saying "Trump did not volunteer" for the exact reasons you describe. Third, I have said it's no big deal and you can put into the article that "Trump

4096:

Yes, I can see that. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The question now is do you see the difference as I've outlined above between 'service' and 'not drafted?' The issue is not service in Vietnam, but rather, the fact he wasn't drafted. There follows the reasons why. I will strike the bits you've

3962:

Saying he didn't serve in the Vietnam War after all the bits about his legal and appropriate student deferments, his temporary 1-Y status, which in no way exempted him from the draft lottery, and ultimately getting a number well above any possibility of getting called up, seems like an attempt to

3187:

The user removed the text where the Gallup and CNN/ORC polls showed net negative viewer reactions to the speech. I'd like to see it mentioned that the speech received mixed reviews and that the CNN/ORC and Gallup polls showed net negative public reactions. I think it's alright to retain AF's text

2827:

That doesn't make it appropriate here. And if you take his comments, the "firestorm" is simply being whipped up by the media which supports Hillary. It's way out of proportion to what was said and politicians who don't like him to begin with, are jumping on the bandwagon. That's not an excuse for

3642:

During campaign speeches, Trump has repeatedly called the judge currently hearing one Trump University case a "hater" and described him as "Spanish" or "Mexican." Trump's references to the judge's ethnicity, as well as his comments that "someone ought to look into" the judge, have alarmed legal

1123:

Is that question for me? Of course I'm not suggesting he was a draft dodger. On the contrary, I'm saying that Trump was not relying solely upon a medical deferment after his student deferments ran out. He was also relying upon a high lottery number in case the medical deferment was overturned

107:

I added a bunch of content vital to his political positions (NATO, WTO, Russia) but it was indiscriminately removed for the reason that it was too long. This text was roughly 2,000 characters but 2/3 of it was citations. This content is of greater importance than much of the other content there.

4111:

Thanks for striking those bits. And please feel free to restore yesterday's version of the sentence in this BLP about not being drafted. I cannot do it yet because of 1RR. I would phrase it a bit more generally than you would, to say that he never "served" in Vietnam (which would cover being

2954:

I normally don't visit this page, but as with other politicians / candidates, whether this is news of the day or just an event in the back and forth of politics, stuff like this only belongs in the main biographical article of a person if it is a crucial, pivotal, defining, etc., event in their

2604:

article, but I think it should also - briefly - be mentioned here. In particular the fact that Trump is being criticized by members of his own party is quite significant. It's more or less unprecedented that high ranking members of a political party would harshly criticize their own nominee for

1104:

It appears from your edit that you reverted, that bone spurs on the feet is not something the Selective Service reevaluated. I know that anything to do with orthopedic problems, especially involving the feet, do outright disqualify people from service, even for volunteers. So Trump's bone spurs

1212:

Do you object to that BLP edit, or do you merely object to using the New York Times as a reliable source? SW3, you said above "Trump is probably right that if he still had an active number and it had been called, he would still have been required to report. They could have reevaluated him and

1016:

Student deferments applied only so long as the student was enrolled and maintaining a full course load. Medical deferments made them completely ineligible unless the condition was one that was expected to improve. In that case, the person would be called in for another physical to evaluate his

363:

If you want to add more to HRC's corresponding section, go ahead. Neither I nor probably anyone else would have problems with you adding her signature issues to her corresponding section, making it as long as Trump's. The reason why they're not there is presumably because much of it is already

1854:

Two things. First, the NYT devoted substantial space to reporting about it. Second, if we were to just quote Trump saying he got a lucky high number that kept him out of the war, and ended the section that way, we would not be accurately conveying the uncertainty surrounding the matter (as

4032:

The previous version said "Trump was not drafted during the Vietnam War." Why not change it to say he didn't serve in Vietnam? In any event, the sentence is much too long now, and I oppose the other editor's insertion of a statement that Trump did not volunteer. And I totally reject your

1385:

Okay, I agree with that, but you have to ask why wouldn't the NYTimes confirm their own quote from the Selective Service guy. You, see that's where they're getting synthetic. Trump believes the high number was relevant and he could be right, because had they wanted to reevaluate his medical

183:

Snooganssnoogans, I agree with the four changes you propose here. Not because the section is too long - it isn't - but because those particular items can be omitted or summarized without harming the article. As for the things you want to add, let's talk about them; I haven't evaluated them.

2577:

I agree this has become a monster-big deal and needs to be covered. Even my own local newspaper, the San Diego Union-Tribune, which leans conservative, gave half of the Monday front page to this story, with a banner headline and several pictures. However, I would prefer to see it in the

551:, time-independent positions are. Some may also be interested in finding out about his reactive, time-varying positions; but I can't help them. Writing up a timely and balanced compilation would be a Sisyphean task. Our consensus text would become outdated within days, not months. 1348:

On the bone spurs resolving, I know DOD policy would not have taken him. It involved the feet. Two areas that were automatically disqualifying: feet and eyes. But I don't blame him for thinking he could still be drafted and believing it was the high number that kept him at home.

3829:

The first diff is by an editor named "Mprudhom" and I don't know anything about it. The second diff is by me. In the second diff, I did not introduce any edit into a source, and I didn't make anything up. Feel free to explain further what you mean, either here or at user

503:

Having looked through some of Snooganssnoogans' edits and suggestions, I agree with him here. Much of the content that he added should be here, and some of the existing stuff should be shortened or dropped (although it looks like some movement has already been done on this

1660:

be cured per this New York Times article; the high draft number may have prevented all that from happening. In reality, there were two redundant reasons why he was not drafted after the student deferments ran out: (1) the medical deferment and (2) the high lottery number.

975:

to the "childhood and education" section has the following edit summary: "False info. The 'both feet' claim came from an interview, it is not in the biography. Reference to lottery number is WP:UNDUE as student and medical deferments made him ineligible to be drafted."

795:

It violates consensus because we discussed the section many times in Talk, gave many versions of proposed wordings, and we none of those wordings eliminated the language about refusing to rent to blacks. So Anythingyouwant changed this wording in violation of consensus.

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for each year of undergrad. If he'd gone to grad school, he could get another deferment. The only exceptions were medical students who could be and were, drafted and trained to be medics. Here's a link to the Selective Service page on the rules for the Vietnam Era.

507:

As said above, it also cannot be reasonably disputed that Trump's positions on NATO, WTO and Russia belong here. These are core themes of high importance. Editors can quibble about how exactly this material should be included, but it certainly should be in here.

3019:

It bears noting that a current GOP congressman has now decided to vote for Clinton, citing Trump's behavior towards the Khans specifically as his rationale for doing so. It would be hard to argue that the story doesn't have major political ramifications already.

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Goldman, Russell (April 29, 2011). "Donald Trump's Own Secret: Vietnam Draft Records". ABC News. Retrieved August 1, 2016. "Nor do the documents categorically suggest it was deferments and not a high draft number that ultimately allowed him to avoid the draft."

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which describes itself as a nonpartisan professional organization representing the interests of Latino legal professionals, last year in a news release called for a boycott of 'of all of Trump business ventures, including golf courses, hotels and restaurants.'"

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Much of Anythingyouwant's arguments are based on his own interpretations of the words or his own opinion of what they mean or imply. I'm not going to respond to those arguments other than to say that Knowledge doesn't follow the editors' opinions. It follows

1826:

articles from ABC News and the NY Times address the matter without concluding that the high draft number did (or did not) provide him with any protection that was not already provided by the medical deferment. Doesn't that accurately describe these sources?

330:. Given that the stated reason for deleting the content is inaccurate (section too long compared to other politicians' pages) and that there are no accuracy and reliability problems with the proposed edits, do I have your permission to restore the content? 2439:

Ok, I did some more trimming. I think this is as good as it gets with one exception (the minimum wage section doesn't necessarily have to outline each contradictory position he has taken - it's enough to just say he's been inconsistent and contradictory).

2410:

Prior to that trimming there were about 13,000 characters (11,000 characters excluding spaces). The previous section (about the 2016 campaign) is about 5,000 characters including spaces. I'd like to see the positions section at 5,000 or less (including

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The Political Positions section here is already much, much longer than the corresponding sections of other national politicians (HClinton, Biden, Romney, McCain). I would be in favor of pruning content as suggested above, but not replacing it with other

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The Iraq War section also has redundant info (isn't it enough to say he tentatively endorsed it in 2002, publically opposed it in 2004 and has been a vocal critic in the GOP debates? Is it necessary to count the instances since 2004 that he's opposed the

683:, which is an official Knowledge guideline, and which does encourage people to "simply put" content into articles. As for the strict sanctions that you mention, I'll quote: " All editors must obtain firm consensus on the talk page of this article before 3270:

A poll by CNN/ORC (very well-respected) conducted RIGHT AFTER Trump's speech said that 75% had a good reaction to it. Now, after the speech happened, the media went in an all-out attack on his speech, using the infamous word "dark". Just look at this:

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whether to include anything about these comments. IMO if they are to be reported anywhere, it should be there at the campaign article, not here in Trump's biography. And if something is to be included, IMO it should be brief, not an extended quote.

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No. "But the publicly available draft records of Mr. Trump include the letters 'DISQ' next to his exam date, with no notation indicating that he would be re-examined." is a direct quote from the New York Times. I want to put that quote into a

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from Donald Trump-related pages. I'm quite serious. Also, if you think people find your claims "hard to understand" (=nobody agrees with them), the thing to do is to give evidence (links to reliable sources) for your statements, not merely

3003:

Umm, he doesn't have a presidential page; he is not president yet. I assume you meant his campaign page? I agree, and that's where it is (although I see you have completely rewritten it, and I will deal with those changes at that article).

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s "Daily Intelligencer" subsite. (Headline: "Hillary Clinton Is Running Not Just As the Democrat But As the Candidate of Democracy Itself". Apparently Johnson ahd Stein aren't, though.) An editor had appropriately removed the material per

2038:

Somebody added a paragraph to the Presidential Election campaign section, quoting at great length President Obama's recent denunciation of Trump. I have deleted it, subject of course to discussion here. It is already being discussed at

854:. I've made it very clear that I support including the allegation about discriminating against blacks. I oppose doing it in a misleading way, however. We have two competing proposals for how to do it. I support one and oppose one. 2476:

and Libya are hugely important for gauging where candidates actually stand on wars and interventions in practice. It's one thing to speak in hypotheticals and in hindsight and another to actually have to take a decision on the spot.

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The minimum wage section is way too long (you don't need a history of his positions - it's just enough to say that he's been inconsistent, favors letting states set the wages and that he's floated the idea of a $ 10 national minimum

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point out over and over, that Donald Trump did not serve in Vietnam. He appears to have done all the appropriate behaviours, he's said he was prepared to serve, and was lucky to get a high draft number. These edits seem more like

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paranoid about their grades and fought to get pass/fail courses to help relieve the stress of constantly fighting to get good grades. Many people were anxious to get into grad school for the continuing deferments they could get.

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that essentially denies that the high lottery number helped to keep Trump out of Vietnam. We don't have reliable sources that support that notion. On the contrary, at the end of the sentence in question we have this footnote:

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edits, with the important exception of the reference to the comment about Russia finding Hillary's emails (which is being debated elsewhere in Talk), if the cuts that Snoogans suggested at the beginning of the section are also

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I have restored the original paragraph about Trump's speech and the reaction to it. ApolloFirenze makes it clear, above, that his version was motivated by partisan considerations, and consensus here has not supported it.

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what importance/significance do you ascribe to the last part of the sentence, " though it is unclear whether the high draft number provided him with any protection that was not already provided by the medical deferment."

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because he had an orthopedic issue, would probably have disqualified him again." But if they found that the orpthpedic issue had been resolved (or was never really serious), then the high lottery number would have been

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Trump's 'political positions' section is meant to be a summary of his full Political Positions article, then there is no argument to be had that NATO, WTO and Russia earn mentions. They clearly do, given their salience.

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Per CNN: "Curiel is a lifetime member of the National Hispanic Bar Association, which last year called for a boycott of all Trump business ventures -- although it is not clear whether Curiel personally agrees with the

1001:, Selective Service records do not "categorically suggest it was deferments and not a high draft number that ultimately allowed him to avoid the draft." So I will modify this part of the Knowledge article accordingly. 4017:

I believe my comments make it plain that, no I do not support such an edit. The stable edit that was there before you and the other editor added these bits, already fully makes clear that he did not serve in Vietnam.

1124:(e.g. due to a medical finding that he had healed or never had a serious problem to begin with). I don't think it's correct to say in Knowledge's voice that the high lottery number was completely unhelpful to Trump. 3737:

In an interview, Mr. Trump said U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel had 'an absolute conflict' in presiding over the litigation given that he was 'of Mexican heritage' and a member of a Latino lawyers' association.

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is topic banned on all abortion related articles for POV-pushing is not a personal attack, it is just a fact. The fact you are continuing your POV-pushing here for an anti-abortion candidate is also a fact. The

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Trump has said, "I actually got lucky because I had a very high draft number", though it is unclear whether the high draft number provided him with any protection that was not already provided by the medical

3794:, I do not understand what you're referring to. I did not introduce any edit into a source, and I didn't make anything up. Feel free to explain further what you mean, either here or at user talk. Thanks. 2982: 2514: 1480:

We've been discussing that NYT article at great length in this talk page section. Did you know that? You really should run for a seat on Knowledge's Arbitration Committee, GoUNC. You'd fit well. Cheers!

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Also, all these polls have such liberal bias. If we looked at independant polling sites like Longroom (who have correctly predicted the winner since 2004), we see Trump is LEADING, not losing to Clinton:

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Shortly after I made the edit, some content I added in it was removed. I'm bringing the content I added here so the community can establish via consensus whether it is worthy of inclusion on the article.

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BLP to say "Trump believes so-and-so" about this, especially because readers will wonder whether reliable sources agree with him or not. The main problem that I would like to fix is that this BLP should

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article, in the section called "people and groups". In a subsection titled "Khizr Khan" or "the Khan family", no "feud." (It takes two to make a feud, but Khan is trying to de-escalate while Trump keeps

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I would like to restore the reference to blacks in that section. I think we have consensus on inculding it, and if anyone disagrees, let me know here. Otherwise I assume we have consensus to keep it in.

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is). For example, to simply say that "he favors letting states set the wages" isn't true - look at his latest statement, which says (among other things) that there should be a federal minimum wage of $

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While I do think it deserves a sentence at this article, I don't see any place where it naturally fits. We need to be careful what we add here because there is still a lot of time til the election. --

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sense ("Sometimes the exact long-lasting impact of a current event in the news will not be apparent, but common sense dictates that there will be an impact"). The inclusion of this fits those I think.

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My main point is that (unlike the articles on Kaine and Pence) full Political Positions articles already exist for both Trump and Clinton. The Political Positions section of Hillary's bio adheres to

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It is just one of many controversial actions by Trump during his campaign. While it may be relevant to his campaign article, it is of little significance overall to the subject of this article.

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Yeah, I saw that. That edit contains additions, removals, moves - I wasn't able to make out what you actually want to add. Can you untangle it here to show just what it is you want to add? --

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The other sham argument against it was that the section and the article are "too long." He's replaced "by refusing to rent to blacks" with "the operation of", which is only 3 words shorter.

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Now let's look at the lottery issue. Did the student and medical deferments make him ineligible to be drafted throughout the period when he otherwise could have been drafted? According to

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of Trump's inconsistency on a very important topic. Examples are needed to actually demonstrate who inconsistent he has been (or, if you will, to let the reader decide what Trump's position

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world and stirring up reactions from politicians, national security experts and journalists, are being kept out in full from this article for reasons that don't apply to any other content.

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appears to have disqualified him. A high lottery number, which millions of people had after the changes, would have exempted him anyway. You have to be careful that this isn't becoming

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Coverage of the story has become extensive and in-depth, with inputs from across the spectrum (Democratic politicians, Republican politicians, and veterans groups). The exceptions to

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Okay, then I will go ahead with my BLP edit (described above) removing the word "irrelevant". I'm not sure if you want me to refrain from putting the NYT quote into the NYT footnote.

777:. It's a sham because, first, if it violates BLP in the main article, then it also violates BLP in the sub-article. Second, it doesn't violate BLP because it's supported by multiple 3897:

And do remove that bit you wrote without a source in the childhood/education section regarding the draft. That is totally inappropriate. You've not got a source for any such thing.

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From what I have read, this is pretty historic. We have never had a Presidential nominee of a major party using his public position to trash the judge in one of his civil cases.

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there. That section need only be a paragraph mentioning his run for president, platform, etc, which it does now. The Trump presidential article then provides full information. .

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At a White House news conference on August 2, 2016, President Obama delivered an extraordinarily harsh denunciation of Trump, stating that Trump was unfit to serve as president.

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Yes it does. The extent of our coverage is determined to a large extent by what Reliable Sources do; we don't decide on our own to puff up a minor story or ignore a major one.

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I believe our first task is to write up an authoritatively balanced summary of his established positions. Only then should we supplement it -- piecemeal, section by section. --

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I disagree. There is no consensus for that. This is political theater. It isn't something Trump initiated like the comments about the judge hearing the Trump University case.

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If you check, it's Hillary who is the political opponent with a huge stake. Obama, not so much. A character assessment by the President of the USA is a pretty big deal. --

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deferment, the high number would have kept him out. So it is relevant in that regard and that's probably exactly why he believed the high number benefitted his status. .

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I've stated repeatedly that this section is already too long. I've provided multiple reasons why I'm making that statement, but my core argument has remained the same.

485:. Is there any way to move forward on this? Isn't the reasonable position here to allow my content in, and have a separate debate over whether to shorten the section? 1463:

The NYT has confirmed that the draft number had no effect on Donald Trump getting drafted as the Donald's rich daddy had already bought him a 4F classification. See

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This user deleted a bunch of content for the supposed reason that so-called "instant polls" are more reliable and that normal polls by CNN/ORC and Gallup are not:

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The editor also replaces accurate descriptions of Trump's and Clinton's convention bounces (which are important in campaigns) with weasel words. Please restore.

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I agree with SW3 5DL on this particular issue. I don't see the encyclopedic benefit of either the quote or the sentence about it being unclear. It appears to be

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of the issues of day as Secretary of State prior to that. Also, I don't believe the topics being proposed for addition are as notable as those already included.

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Drop Trump's reference to global cooling in the 1920s. Is this a rationale that he brings up a lot for his climate change denial? If not, I think we can skip it.

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status. Unless bone spurs are expected to improve, and there is evidence that Trump was reevaluated and deemed fit to serve, ABC's speculation makes no sense.

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By executing these trims (or just some of them), the other content can be easily included without lengthening the section. Here's the content that was deleted:

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There was a consensus here among three editors who have carefully discussed this matter. However, a fourth editor seems determined to continue revert-warring.

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Shouldn't the ancestry section and the family tree be under one part? And why isn't the section under "personal life", but rather at the top of the article?

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it very much looks like this has become a big enough issue to include in the article (I'd hold off on a separate article but if it keeps going like this...)

1210:"Trump has said, 'I actually got lucky because I had a very high draft number', though the lottery number and the medical exemption were somewhat redundant." 4112:

drafted as well as volunteering), but the way you like is a big improvement over what's in the BLP now. Thanks again, in advance, for striking those bits.

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it to reflect the New York Times story. If there are sources that conflict with the Times then we need to cite them and describe them. The key word being

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make stuff up regarding Trump University. Can you please acknowledge those two things or not, because if you cannot then I will have to seek assistance.

1206:"Trump has said, 'I actually got lucky because I had a very high draft number', but because of his medical exemption, his lottery number was irrelevant." 3167:

particularly hard time to judge polling, due to two convention bounces. That said, I think it's reasonable to guess that the Khan feud plays some role.

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Per the NY Times: "'I was never a fan of the Vietnam War,' he said. 'But I was never at the protest level, either, because I had other things to do.'"

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Could someone please restore? I probably don't have to say the obvious but "instant polls" are generally considered the worst kind of polls. See:

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This story appears not to be going away and it looks like one of the biggest stories to come out of the DNC. Tons of sources. Working backwards:

691:(via reversion)." (emphasis added). So yes, edit warring is rather sharply curtailed, but again, I can't see that as applying to the addition of 3869:

Hi, your indentation at Talk:Donald Trump makes it appear that you're responding to me rather than to Gouncbeatduke. Is that what you intended?

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joined Knowledge on 24 July 2016, and has made most of his edits to the Donald Trump article, where he is a partisan for Trump. It looks like a

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joined Knowledge on 24 July 2016, and has made most of his edits to the Donald Trump article, where he is a partisan for Trump. It looks like a

3280: 1503:, an anti-abortion group, praised Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees as "exceptionally strong," while the abortion-rights group 2266:

An attack by a political opponent with a huge stake in seeing whoever is running against Hillary lose has absolutely no place in Trump's bio.

3343:. Please check the discretionary sanctions notice at the top of the page. You can't reinsert/change this material once it's been challenged. 3304:

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/07/22/75-percent-positive-response-to-donald-trump-speech-so-cnn-trashes-its-own-poll/

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Nor do the documents categorically suggest it was deferments and not a high draft number that ultimately allowed him to avoid the draft.

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I think it bears a small reference in the post-nomination section of the campaign article as something that caused his numbers to tank.

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It's actually not "just" one of many controversial actions. This one has had a lot of tractions and has been going on for some time now.

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I understand that. So if we want that level of detail, let's say that, instead of the weird "perhaps" language that was there before. --

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By the way, I'm curious, did you ever state that the section was too long before I added those three bits of content? Adding a ping (

135:. The content that I added can of course also be trimmed (e.g. it's enough to say that Trump wants to renegotiate the WTO or leave). 3990:

is not by me? It is by someone else. Moreover, I support making the following edit, but I cannot do it yet because of 1RR: "Trump

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Again, it's not just "politicians who don't like him"; the condemnation is almost universal and is coming from his supporters too.

3285: 3574:. I've responded on my own page. The link works for me, but it's labs, they're down and up like a jumping frog in my experience. 3095: 2828:

Knowledge to do the same. Simply stating what was said, without the drama is best, and it is best done on his presidential page.

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emphasized the high draft number was very pro-Trump POV-pushing and intellectually dishonest, so I revert to the older version.

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Mrs. Khan said she was too emotional and I believe her when she said she was afraid if she spoke she would lose her composure.

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It doesn't appear we have anything on the controversy in the article, and although I generally favor a robust application of

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First let's look at the "both feet" thing. The deleted language is in bold: "Trump has attributed his medical deferment to "

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This is getting complicated. I'm limiting myself to the one issue of the DOJ charges of Trump's refusing to rent to blacks.

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deleted "by refusing to rent to blacks in 39 residential buildings" and replaced it by "in the operation of 39 buildings".

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It's way out of proportion to what was said and politicians who don't like him to begin with, are jumping on the bandwagon.

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The following was deleted from the Trump University section with a "doesn't appear to have long-term notability" comment:

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I disagree with that. By the way, I'll trim some non-essential bits (which some may want to revert) for the next 15 mins.

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synopsis of the campaign article - the section titled "Presidential campaign, 2016". I can see a case for expanding that

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in Vietnam (as either a draftee or a volunteer). But it's no big deal, if you'd prefer to merely say he wasn't drafted.

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supports Hillary?) "the media which supports Hillary" reflects your own bias; it's not how Knowledge evaluates sources.

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to this talk page, then achieve consensus, and then, lastly, add information to the article. That would be contrary to

3496:("I removed all of your continuing edit-war edits because no consensus exists for you continuing edit-war edits."). -- 3999:

nor did he volunteer for military or alternative public service, nor did he publicly protest against the Vietnam War.

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Hm? So he/she can be rude to me, but I have to be respectful to everyone and get walked all over by people? Got it.

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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/08/02/politics/obama-says-trump-unfit-for-presidency/index.html

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which prompted a discussion there. SW3 would like that conversation to be moved here, and so it is quoted below:

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I haven't disagreed with anything you just said about student deferments, and I don't disagree with it now either.

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would suggest. Once again, I would be in favor of pruning it, and agree that the reference to Pakistan should go.

3098:(“E2 and EB5 Investor Immigration and International Business Transactions”) (site discontinued Aug. 2, 2016). -- 2396:

I just trimmed 2,500 characters that did not add much from the section. It's as concise as it could be I think.

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that summarizes the content of the speech (law and order etc) and that the speech was widely seen as "dark".

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And if you take his comments, the "firestorm" is simply being whipped up by the media which supports Hillary.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=732999673&oldid=732996018

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It is being reported by media of all slants, from liberal to conservative. (Are you going to claim that the

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=732277728&oldid=732276451

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=732278465&oldid=732277728

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=732278465&oldid=732277728

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http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/scott-whitlock/2016/07/22/networks-trump-dark-speech-vengeful-demagogue

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That's not an excuse for Knowledge to do the same. Simply stating what was said, without the drama is best.

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The deletion of references to blacks has been challenged. So Anythingyouwant violated that restriction.

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Ok, I made some restore edits. Let me know (or fix in edits) if anything was added in or deleted badly.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/laid-back-bush-keeps-gore-at-arms-length-635398.html

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Statements from members of one party that attack those in another party should generally be included

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positions on NATO, WTO and Russia, then other content should be removed to allow that content in.

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http://www.dailywire.com/news/7734/theres-one-word-entire-media-used-describe-trump-aaron-bandler

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in such terms. This goes to character, rather than the regular run of political chat. I support

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I think we should go with what he believes. Does he believe the high lottery number helped him?

207:. All highly important issues that have gotten lots of attention and have global ramifications. 3473:". Here the user in question restores some material that's supported in part by an item on the 3286:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/trumps-speech-wasnt-dark-or-angry-the-media-out-touch-17099

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http://web.archive.org/web/20160801212033/http://www.kmkhanlaw.com/International_Business.html

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consider whether my actual edit to the BLP text is okay or not? The BLP presently says this:

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page is subject to active arbitration remedies. To repeat from above, the restrictions are:

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of majority democratic voters. The media is liberal, is is that hard to understand for you?

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composure than he was and that she was there to give him the strength to make his speech. --

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The man and his campaign overlap, of course. I'm not sure what BLP has to do with anything.

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All editors must obtain firm consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating

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to look this over. He commented earlier about civility issues. Maybe he can offer advice.

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The minimum wage section, which I expanded, needs to be longer than normal because of the

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be talking about other users, but rather page content. (If you agree with that approach,

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http://newsonable.com/cnn-hides-its-own-poll-number-75-react-positively-to-trumps-speech/

3609: 3554: 3264: 2956: 1406:. We only know what he says and what he does. We have no way of really knowing what he 1219:, right? So maybe we shouldn't say in Knowledge's voice that it was irrelevant, right? 980: 949: 3219:

User deletes accurate polling and replaces it with inaccurate polling. I can't revert.

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The "Political positions" section si too detailed, and the subject is already covered

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Dead wrong. The firestorm is coming from politicians and public figures of all sides,

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phrase about how "perhaps" Trump wasn't drafted because of a high lottery number. I

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MAIN page of the person. We need to trim this article, not expand on such nonsense.

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Given the total length of this article, that section is fine (and informative). --

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policy, anyone on this page can undo all of those bold edits in a single revert. --

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No, no, I was thinking of the other editor who wants the volunteer bit, not you.

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on a point that's already made clearly and concisely earlier in the paragraph. --

3703:"Trump's personal, racially tinged attacks on federal judge alarm legal experts" 2697: 2662: 2658: 1607: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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and this is really the point, you've not got a source. This is a BLP. We don't

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Khizr Khan’s Speech, Ghazala Khan’s Comments and Donald Trump’s Replies - WSJ:

2783:. Someone might want to abstract a sentence from it to go in this article. -- 1618:. If they don't conflict then we don't need to cite them or describe them. -- 1551: 2726:

I agree that this is worthy of mention, even if only for a sentence or two.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/us/politics/donald-trump-draft-record.html

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Incivility and assumptions of bad faith on this page may lead to topic bans

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The drama and the reaction is what makes it a story worth including here.

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including many who have endorsed him and have not withdrawn their support.

910:". He appears to have a broad-focus encyclopedia-building account, not a " 3643:

experts, who have expressed concern about the effects of the comments on

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http://duckofminerva.com/2008/09/is-mccain-about-to-lose-post-debate.html

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Other content can also be trimmed without any substantive harm, such as:

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And there were many many articles on how hard the media attacked Trump:

2244:. It is an extraordinary piece of history and should be included here. 3183:

ApolloFirenze reverts challenged content again (twice within 24 hours)

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I think most readers would be most interested in finding out what his

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article. The proper place for any lengthy quotation or discussion is

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got a source for everything I inserted regarding Vietnam, and I did

1541:"Donald Trump Releases Names of 11 Potential Supreme Court Choices" 3323: 3722:"Donald Trump Keeps Up Attacks on Judge in Trump University Case" 3272: 3235:

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/pollingstandards.pdf

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evidenced by the footnoted quote from the Selective Service guy).

3490:(per biographies of living persons, removing slander attempts.) 3233:

NYT calls them "wildly unreliable" in their polling standards:

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It is extraordinary that a sitting president should comment on

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called the candidates on the list "a woman's worst nightmare."

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Anythingyouwant

789:, and if WP:RSs use those words, Knowledge uses those words. 25: 715:: I think everyone here is in accord with you on that point. 564:

Donald Trump promises security and prosperity as US president

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Here are two pertinent quotes from news reports. ABC News:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump

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I'm sorry to see we have entered "How dare you" territory,

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Even my own local newspaper, the San Diego Union-Tribune...

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seem to apply, and thus this content should be allowed in.

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This political science blog refers to them as unreliable:

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Good job. I went ahead and removed a paragraph from the

2382:, it needs to be shortened just like for comparable BLPs. 773:

Anythingyouwant used the sham argument that it violated

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Ultimately, we don't know what Trump (or anyone else)

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In the interest of resolving this, I would be ok with

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about living people and hope we find a source later.

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This Independent piece refers to them as unreliable:

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For helpful background material about Attorney Khan,

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I can't see any reason it belongs here, if anywhere.

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Having said that, I've trimmed the section a bit. --

2631:) 19:23, 1 August 2016 (UTC) And so do the parents: 812:

any edits that have been challenged (via reversion).

770:made and justified in Talk on 05:37, 29 July 2016. 2973:, sorry, but your analysis above is POV and wrong. 1580:

was a great basketball player for Duke against UNC.

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Anyway, I'll revert my revert later today. Cheers.

554:Here are two authoritative compilations of Trump's 120:

I think we can do without his position on Pakistan.

671:I hope that you're not saying that editors should 433:) in case you missed this. I'm genuinely curious. 3203:I've restored the original version, per above. -- 2975:That (coverage) doesn't make it appropriate here. 2605:president (at least once the primaries are over). 2528:(note the source actually uses the word "feud"), 644:It's pretty simple, isn't it? One would think... 3701:DelReal, Jose A.; Zezima, Katie (June 1, 2016). 3395:about how incivility on this page can lead to a 3339:These are not reliable sources and you're doing 1794:arbitrary page split to navigate section better 725:Don't be upset if your bold edits get reverted. 3001:and it is best done on his presidential page. 2041:Talk:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 695:material that hasn't been controversial. -- 8: 3680:"Trump blames legal woes on 'Spanish' judge" 2080:I added this to the article (proofreading): 461:Pinging other regular editors to this page: 4126:Why do we need to say he didn't volunteer? 3853:I left a message at the user talk page of 3298:their narrative. Many articles on that too: 2010:Olay, well in that case, I'm going to ping 4001:". Do you support this edit or oppose it? 3883:I'm responding to your diff on that page. 3815:. Are these your edits, or am I mistaken? 2236:I also support the wording recommended by 985:in both feet according to a 2015 biography 1915:. I agree with the policy you've quoted. 799:According to the Warning box above, this 558:positions: Donald J Trump for President, 2781:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 2602:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 2580:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 2173:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 2134:Donald Trump presidential campaign, 2016 1891:Okay, I have removed the whole sentence. 719:just needs to be acutely aware that the 3670: 2739:Donald Trump presidential campaign 2016 2091: 1779:was invoked but never defined (see the 1757:was invoked but never defined (see the 1735:was invoked but never defined (see the 1721: 1531: 1302:wasn't something that would be common. 850:The matter is being discussed above at 2320:Political positions — Trump vs Clinton 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3441:can you take a look at these diffs: 2167:that I think would be justifiable in 7: 3995:did not serve in the military during 1208:Here is my proposed edited version: 917:I've posted a helpful warning about 756:In this edit on 16:58, 30 July 2016 746:Allegedly refusing to rent to blacks 199:My proposed edits can be seen here: 3485:Contributions by that same user at 2779:I added a paragraph to the article 2330:Hillary Clinton#Political positions 1771: 1749: 1727: 3678:King, Robert (February 27, 2016). 2600:Yes, it definitely belongs in the 2328:. We should take inspiration from 24: 2332:. What do you think about it? -- 948:Several users have recently been 103:Indiscriminate removal of content 2899:local newspaper had to say! ;) 2619:BTW I see that the soldier son, 2378:I think it's way too long. Per 831:, and he's ignoring consensus. 29: 3720:Kendall, Brent (June 2, 2016). 3324:https://www.longroom.com/polls/ 3967:and POV editing and certainly 3273:http://i.imgur.com/NBRt2c8.jpg 2737:I disagree. It belongs on the 2675:I think that's a good analogy. 852:Talk:Donald_Trump#BLP concerns 1: 2916:(Most relevant passages from 1539:Kendall, Brent (2016-05-18). 898:actually joined Knowledge on 3634:Trump University and Vietnam 2623:, already has an article. -- 878:On 31 July 2016, you wrote- 3469:See diff 6 in particular. " 2149:, by saying something like: 1840:What makes that important? 1602:sources. The article had a 766:This changes the edit that 4229: 4197:16:45, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4183:16:37, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4166:15:45, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4151:04:36, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4136:04:32, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4122:04:29, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4107:04:23, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4092:04:13, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4064:03:56, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4043:03:46, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4028:03:41, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 4011:03:24, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3981:03:16, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3950:03:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3922:02:52, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3907:02:38, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3893:02:36, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3879:02:34, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3840:02:55, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3825:02:51, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3804:02:41, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3787:02:30, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3762:00:37, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3661:00:15, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3629:10:09, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3610:18:41, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 3583:18:57, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 3555:02:34, 6 August 2016 (UTC) 3525:18:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 3506:04:23, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 3458:20:19, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3430:21:19, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3413:19:43, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3383:19:31, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3368:18:54, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3353:18:52, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3335:18:33, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3265:18:10, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3213:18:42, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 3198:13:21, 5 August 2016 (UTC) 3177:19:18, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3160:19:13, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3129:16:10, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3119:Not particularly relevant. 3108:08:48, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 3077:16:10, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 3063:18:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 3048:15:28, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 3030:14:19, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 3014:14:11, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2965:05:49, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2948:02:29, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2931:02:14, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2883:01:29, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2867:01:00, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2838:00:35, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 2823:23:02, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2809:22:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2793:20:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2765:20:11, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2752:20:06, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2731:19:48, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2706:19:36, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2685:19:35, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2671:19:33, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2645:19:32, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2615:19:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2596:19:03, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2573:18:54, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2554:18:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2486:17:31, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2471:17:19, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2450:15:45, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2435:15:09, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2421:15:05, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2406:14:45, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2392:13:54, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2374:12:11, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2358:10:20, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2342:10:06, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2312:23:56, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2290:02:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2276:23:39, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2254:22:36, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2232:20:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2204:16:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2185:16:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2119:15:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2070:15:34, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2054:15:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 2028:00:51, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 2005:00:43, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 1987:00:28, 4 August 2016 (UTC) 1959:23:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1925:19:38, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1901:17:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1887:16:35, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1865:14:31, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1850:14:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1836:12:19, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1821:06:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1703:05:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1685:05:06, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1670:00:54, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1628:23:27, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1590:21:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1517:21:18, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1490:20:58, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1476:20:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1458:17:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1437:17:25, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1420:02:20, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 1396:17:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1381:16:41, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1359:16:34, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1343:16:30, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1328:16:26, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1312:16:19, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1296:16:16, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1281:16:13, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1258:16:32, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1244:16:27, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1229:16:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1198:15:51, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1176:15:43, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1154:15:40, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1134:15:34, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1119:15:21, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1097:14:36, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1044:03:15, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1027:02:38, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 1011:01:32, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 962:09:38, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 936:08:06, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 741:05:47, 3 August 2016 (UTC) 705:17:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC) 660:03:39, 1 August 2016 (UTC) 2458:section with explanation 2141:This article does have a 2132:articles - that would be 920:Harassment of other users 887:WP:Single-purpose account 864:20:04, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 845:19:49, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 825:WP:Single-purpose account 687:any edits that have been 635:21:24, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 618:20:53, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 594:20:45, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 579:20:28, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 560:Donald J Trump: Positions 539:19:16, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 513:19:17, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 495:19:11, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 443:19:11, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 425:18:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 411:18:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 396:18:07, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 374:17:51, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 359:17:33, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 340:17:21, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 309:02:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 286:02:14, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 246:02:43, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 231:02:15, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 217:02:01, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 194:01:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 176:01:15, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 161:01:05, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 145:00:37, 31 July 2016 (UTC) 3391:. Please take a look at 3090:International Business, 2891:: You were commenting, " 2033: 1505:NARAL Pro-Choice America 3218: 723:guideline emphasizes, " 3992:was not drafted during 3649: 2694:other stuff does exist 2633:Khizr and Ghazala Khan 2621:Humayun Khan (soldier) 1576:It's also a fact that 912:single-purpose account 750:Since you asked me-- 3645:judicial independence 3640: 3471:(...revert vandalism) 1501:Susan B. Anthony List 717:User:Snooganssnoogans 605:User:Snooganssnoogans 131:. It's straight from 42:of past discussions. 4097:taken exception to. 3969:beating a dead horse 3494:Hillary Clinton talk 2895:" Well, here's what 2850:: Which particular " 2651:User:Volunteer Marek 2222:'s wording above. -- 1775:The named reference 1753:The named reference 1731:The named reference 968:Vietnam draft status 761:user:Anythingyouwant 483:User:Volunteer_Marek 467:User:Anythingyouwant 3986:Are you aware that 3726:Wall Street Journal 2989:Wall Street Journal 1545:Wall Street Journal 999:an ABC News article 808:Consensus required: 562:; Financial Times, 523:User:Ihardlythinkso 479:User:John_Broughton 324:User:John Broughton 3092:KM Khan Law Office 3055:Somedifferentstuff 2463:Somedifferentstuff 2366:Somedifferentstuff 1875:improper synthesis 1448:Aye, sounds good. 923:at your Talk page. 463:User:Dervorguilla 3997:the Vietnam War, 3960: 3959: 3615:Ancestry sections 3341:original research 2506:Trump v Khan feud 1657: 1656: 1633:User:DrFleischman 1086: 1085: 1067: 1066: 768:user:Dervorguilla 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 18:Talk:Donald Trump 4220: 4173:wasn't drafted". 3863: 3740: 3739: 3734: 3732: 3717: 3711: 3710: 3698: 3692: 3691: 3689: 3687: 3675: 3544: 3468: 3440: 3393:my warning above 3360:Snooganssnoogans 3257:Snooganssnoogans 3190:Snooganssnoogans 3169:Snooganssnoogans 3158: 3156: 3151: 3146: 3094:(Aug. 1, 2016), 3022:Snooganssnoogans 2875:Snooganssnoogans 2848:Snooganssnoogans 2565:Snooganssnoogans 2478:Snooganssnoogans 2442:Snooganssnoogans 2427:Snooganssnoogans 2398:Snooganssnoogans 2380:WP:Summary style 2350:Snooganssnoogans 2180: 2143:relatively short 2101: 2096: 2062:Snooganssnoogans 2034:Obama's comments 2017: 1914: 1907:Yes, thank you, 1809: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1778: 1770: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1756: 1748: 1742: 1741: 1740: 1734: 1726: 1693:will do the job. 1689:Okay, hopefully 1643: 1562: 1561: 1559: 1558: 1536: 1072: 1069:New York Times: 1054: 700: 670: 657: 650: 627:Snooganssnoogans 586:Snooganssnoogans 487:Snooganssnoogans 471:User: Neutrality 435:Snooganssnoogans 403:Snooganssnoogans 384:WP:Summary style 380:WP:Summary style 366:Snooganssnoogans 332:Snooganssnoogans 301:Snooganssnoogans 281: 238:Snooganssnoogans 209:Snooganssnoogans 168:Snooganssnoogans 137:Snooganssnoogans 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4228: 4227: 4223: 4222: 4221: 4219: 4218: 4217: 4175:Anythingyouwant 4143:Anythingyouwant 4114:Anythingyouwant 4084:Anythingyouwant 4035:Anythingyouwant 4003:Anythingyouwant 3942:Anythingyouwant 3914:Anythingyouwant 3871:Anythingyouwant 3832:Anythingyouwant 3796:Anythingyouwant 3754:Anythingyouwant 3745: 3744: 3743: 3730: 3728: 3719: 3718: 3714: 3707:Washington Post 3700: 3699: 3695: 3685: 3683: 3677: 3676: 3672: 3636: 3617: 3538: 3487:Hillary Clinton 3462: 3434: 3345:Volunteer Marek 3252:Need I go on? 3221: 3185: 3154: 3149: 3144: 3142: 3121:Volunteer Marek 3069:Volunteer Marek 2677:Volunteer Marek 2655:Joe the Plumber 2607:Volunteer Marek 2546:Volunteer Marek 2508: 2413:Anythingyouwant 2384:Anythingyouwant 2322: 2176: 2163:But that's the 2106: 2105: 2104: 2097: 2093: 2078: 2036: 2011: 1997:Anythingyouwant 1908: 1893:Anythingyouwant 1857:Anythingyouwant 1828:Anythingyouwant 1806:Anythingyouwant 1803: 1796: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1776: 1774: 1772: 1767: 1754: 1752: 1750: 1745: 1732: 1730: 1728: 1723: 1695:Anythingyouwant 1662:Anythingyouwant 1582:Anythingyouwant 1567: 1566: 1565: 1556: 1554: 1538: 1537: 1533: 1496:Anythingyouwant 1482:Anythingyouwant 1429:Anythingyouwant 1373:Anythingyouwant 1320:Anythingyouwant 1288:Anythingyouwant 1250:Anythingyouwant 1221:Anythingyouwant 1168:Anythingyouwant 1126:Anythingyouwant 1089:Anythingyouwant 1036:Anythingyouwant 1003:Anythingyouwant 970: 946: 896:Anythingyouwant 883:Anythingyouwant 856:Anythingyouwant 748: 696: 664: 653: 646: 277: 105: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4226: 4224: 4216: 4215: 4214: 4213: 4212: 4211: 4210: 4209: 4208: 4207: 4206: 4205: 4204: 4203: 4202: 4201: 4200: 4199: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4049: 4048: 4047: 4046: 4045: 3965:undue emphasis 3958: 3957: 3954: 3953: 3952: 3937: 3933: 3929: 3928: 3927: 3926: 3925: 3924: 3867: 3860: 3851: 3850: 3849: 3848: 3847: 3846: 3845: 3844: 3843: 3842: 3765: 3764: 3742: 3741: 3712: 3693: 3669: 3668: 3664: 3635: 3632: 3616: 3613: 3597: 3596: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3592: 3591: 3590: 3589: 3588: 3587: 3586: 3536: 3535: 3534: 3533: 3532: 3531: 3530: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3483: 3460: 3432: 3417: 3416: 3355: 3318: 3317: 3312: 3311: 3306: 3300: 3299: 3294: 3293: 3288: 3283: 3277: 3276: 3250: 3249: 3243: 3237: 3220: 3217: 3216: 3215: 3184: 3181: 3180: 3179: 3163: 3162: 3138: 3137: 3136: 3135: 3134: 3133: 3132: 3131: 3084: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3079: 3065: 3033: 3032: 2968: 2967: 2952: 2951: 2950: 2914: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2908: 2886: 2885: 2852:exceptions to 2845: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2840: 2796: 2795: 2776: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2770: 2769: 2768: 2767: 2755: 2754: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2718: 2717: 2716: 2715: 2714: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2690: 2507: 2504: 2503: 2502: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2489: 2488: 2456:Foreign policy 2361: 2360: 2321: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2238:John Broughton 2220:John Broughton 2209: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2188: 2187: 2178:John Broughton 2160: 2159: 2158: 2157: 2151: 2150: 2138: 2137: 2103: 2102: 2090: 2089: 2085: 2077: 2076:Obama on Trump 2074: 2073: 2072: 2035: 2032: 2031: 2030: 1992: 1990: 1989: 1973: 1972: 1967: 1966: 1946: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1936: 1935: 1934: 1933: 1932: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1879:Dr. Fleischman 1871:undue emphasis 1795: 1792: 1788: 1787: 1765: 1743: 1720: 1719: 1715: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1711: 1710: 1709: 1677:Dr. Fleischman 1655: 1654: 1651: 1647: 1620:Dr. Fleischman 1599: 1598: 1597: 1596: 1595: 1594: 1593: 1592: 1564: 1563: 1530: 1529: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1521: 1520: 1519: 1446: 1445: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1441: 1440: 1439: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1331: 1330: 1299: 1298: 1265: 1264: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1185: 1184: 1183: 1182: 1181: 1180: 1179: 1178: 1141: 1140: 1139: 1138: 1137: 1136: 1084: 1083: 1080: 1076: 1065: 1064: 1061: 1058: 1049: 1048: 1047: 1046: 989:New York Times 987:." The cited 969: 966: 945: 942: 941: 940: 939: 938: 924: 915: 904:"24 July 2016" 893: 892: 891: 876: 867: 866: 815: 814: 747: 744: 713:John Broughton 710: 709: 708: 707: 698:John Broughton 640: 639: 638: 637: 601: 600: 599: 598: 597: 596: 567: 552: 542: 541: 518: 517: 516: 515: 505: 498: 497: 458: 457: 456: 455: 454: 453: 452: 451: 450: 449: 448: 447: 446: 445: 343: 342: 316: 315: 314: 313: 312: 311: 291: 290: 289: 288: 279:John Broughton 271: 270: 269: 268: 253: 252: 251: 250: 249: 248: 181: 180: 179: 178: 125: 124: 121: 118: 114: 104: 101: 98: 97: 92: 89: 84: 79: 72: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4225: 4198: 4194: 4190: 4186: 4185: 4184: 4180: 4176: 4171: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4163: 4159: 4154: 4153: 4152: 4148: 4144: 4139: 4138: 4137: 4133: 4129: 4125: 4124: 4123: 4119: 4115: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4104: 4100: 4095: 4094: 4093: 4089: 4085: 4081: 4080: 4075: 4074: 4068: 4067: 4066: 4065: 4061: 4057: 4044: 4040: 4036: 4031: 4030: 4029: 4025: 4021: 4016: 4015: 4014: 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Retrieved 3725: 3715: 3706: 3696: 3686:February 27, 3684:. Retrieved 3673: 3665: 3650: 3641: 3637: 3618: 3598: 3537: 3498:Dervorguilla 3489: 3480:WP:BLPREMOVE 3474: 3470: 3443:Donald Trump 3254: 3251: 3228: 3222: 3186: 3100:Dervorguilla 3091: 3087: 3085: 3000: 2996: 2992: 2978: 2974: 2969: 2923:Dervorguilla 2917: 2915: 2896: 2892: 2887: 2859:Dervorguilla 2851: 2846: 2649:Concur with 2539: 2509: 2455: 2323: 2215: 2168: 2164: 2146: 2142: 2129: 2125: 2107: 2094: 2086: 2082: 2079: 2037: 1991: 1947: 1911:DrFleischman 1773:Cite error: 1768: 1751:Cite error: 1746: 1729:Cite error: 1724: 1716: 1658: 1631: 1615: 1600: 1555:. 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