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ingredients, none of your info covers how jalebi derived from zalabia except its name, you should mention these info which would prove that zalabia is ancestor of jalebi? and how does it indicate its the origin for jalebi?, if you go to luqmat al qadi article it already mentions it as zalabia as alternate name. i dont think that zalabia is jalebi but luqmat al qadi.
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The fact that you think it's okay to questioning my knowledge on a talk page, instead of actually reading the two wikipedia articles or the citations speaks volumes. Personal experiences are not "facts" here, and I am sure I am not the first to mention this to you since you are an experienced editor.
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How is zalabia the same as jalebi if Imarti not the same as jalebi, imarti is still pretty close to jalebi, but the zalabia is a totally different dish which has been credited as the ancestor of jalebi only just because it shares the name?. luqmat al qadi/zalabia/zalebiyeh is a totally different dish
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If I understand you correctly, part of the problem here is that the word "zalabiyeh" can mean different things in different regions. While Yemen has a fried soft yeast bread; this is not true for all of these countries in
Western Asia. In Iran/Persia (for example) this looks like s different food.
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im asking you where does your source mentions the recipes for zalabia and that zalabia is the source of origin for jalebi, you oxford source only mentions the word zalabia and then indicates that there was a certain dish called zalabia mentioned in historic arab texts and that it used totally diff
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for improved taste. They are eaten while they are still hot, while some have it as a practice to eat them with honey or with sugar." (END QUOTE). I hope this was helpful. It is, therefore, fitting and proper that we have two separate articles for this deep-fried dough product, just as we have for
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This is obvious to anyone who simply clicks onto the links provided under the page info box, Cookbook:Zalabiyeh and
Cookbook:Jalebi (Fritters in Syrup). The two are very different. Even if they were not different, just for the sake of argument, sometimes we find that where there are two prominent
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Again, what I said was they share the same history (as you can see with the citations) and the Jalebi wikipedia article is expressing this. Nobody here has stated that the, "Indian variety is the mother of all other varieties" or expressed so. If you think the one article merged should have a
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The term "zalabiyeh" can be used to describe two dishes in present-day that are texturally-different, physically-different, and ingredient-different (but found within a similar region). This was one issue discovered in this threaded discussion. Unfortunately it's not just a matter of shared
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to merger. Often we find in
Knowledge articles that similar foodstuffs are called by etymologically similar names in different countries, but when these foods are examined closely, the cultural differences of those countries have produced changes in those same foods. The Indian
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The two articles were decided to be merged in 2009/2011 per this talk page. In 2020, you made a new page but it also had duplicate information to this existing page, as well as some new information. That is how this conversation got started. When you look at the
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Are these two types the same thing, historically speaking; is this a transliteration/language issue; is this the same word used for entirely different foods; or alternatively is the "fried soft yeast bread" version is a sub-type/variation of the "fried, chaotic
2444:. Both names are derived from the same source, having a "shared history" in name only. However, the manner of production of this alcoholic beverage slightly differed between Arizona (USA) and Mexico, which accounts for there being two separate articles.
1605:-compliant. This particular article is especially an unacceptable source, because it makes a vague claim ("Some of them can be traced to modern-day delicacies like jalebis, paneer pakoras and idlis"), without quoting any relevant portions of the text.
2583:). The existing wikipedia article for Jalebi has a history section with sources that answer your questions re: the dates. I am going to end the debate thread with you since no sources have been provided. Perhaps some other editors will chime in.
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It's not though. This is implying that the "Middle
Eastern" or West Asian-variety of the dish is always puffy, and that is not true. This is skewing the large issue of the dish, towards specific regions of Arab and Jewish culinary culture.
2557:, at the advice of an administrator, although initially there was only one article ("City of David"). Here, the material on each is far too extensive to be included in one, all-encompassing article. BTW: The earliest reference to
1637:, It was in India that the jalebi got its form - crispness, colour and the sticky sweetness, your own oxford source declares it an indian sweet and so how is a jalebi except for its name related to zolobia of the middle east?
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from western asia which has no relation to indian jalebi. As for reliable source, none of the reliable sources here mention any detail of zalabia's relation with jalebi, how jalebi is related to western asian zalabia itself?
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Can you share here a reliable source(s) that says they are from a different history. Right now we have two RS sources listed saying they are shared history, and I found many more (but they were not added at this point).
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is a generic name for fritter, just as the section entitled "Early known origins" seeks to point out. Knowledge requires reliable sources, not a "plethora" of sources. Furthermore, you stand to be corrected. The
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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
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My friend, I do not doubt your ability as a good editor. I will, however, remind you of what this article states in its lead: "The jalebi can be served warm or cold. They have a somewhat chewy
2879:. Your major problem, from what I am able to gather from your posts, is that you are unfamiliar with both. All of your questions to me have been answered, but you have not answered one of mine.
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Can you share here any reliable source(s) that says they are from a different history or they are different foods? If no sources exist, this starts to sounds like original research (see
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here, in Israel, had a limited knowledge about its make-up and how it actually differed from the Indian variety. Again, this is tantamount to the two separate articles under the names
2068:, one major difference is the shared history of these two foods (via migration). What is your suggestion for handling that here on wikipedia? We should not be duplicating information.
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traditionally prepared in Yemen, and I translate: "Zalābiyeh: fritters made from a soft yeast bread which is fried on both sides in deep oil. There are those who add to the dough
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article the word "zalabiyeh" is specifically referring to the food of the same name that looks identical to Jalebi, made in a "fried, chaotic pretzel" shape and dipped in syrup.
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that shared etymologies have over time (in this case hundreds of years) established in different common usages that we take into consideration for the scope of the article.
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Perhaps the best way for you to understand what we're trying to say to you here is for you to look closely at two
Knowledge articles that discuss an alcoholic beverage,
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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class.
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I think both articles still need a significant amount of clean up, but historically speaking they don’t vary, and in terms of ingredients they don't vary much.
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to merge, with stale discussion; objections focuss on both differences in texture and differences in cultural context that warranted separate discussion.
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or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article --
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This article duplicates the information in the existing article. There is also a history of merger of these subjects on this talk page dating from 2011.
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Completely disagree. We should sort out and clarify content, not merge and confuse readers. Unless the subjects of the articles are 100% identical.--
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which beverage developed eventually into two unique and indivual beverages. I will try and work on the Jalebi article and to bring it up to par. --
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takes on a single given-issue, such as the "City of David," we are permitted to split-up the article into two separate articles, just as we did for
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If you are asserting that zalabia has been wrongly credited as an ancestor of jalebi, feel free to update the article with an acceptable source.
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How much in these articles are actual duplicates? I would think very little. I'll review the pages again to see what might need changing.
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Both articles provide the sources. The names are different and the manner of making them are different, just as provided in the sources.
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doesn't have a plethora of citation support for a "fried soft yeast bread" for places beside Yemen (at the moment). Meanwhile in the
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That is correct. And this fact is brought out in the individual articles, without doing disservice to each particular variant.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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What happened in 2020 is not bound by the mistakes made in 2009/2011. Perhaps back then, editors dealing with our kind of
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supports no source that claims that all forms of deep-fried dough desserts were derived from the Indian variety. In fact,
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dates back to the 10th-century CE, as shown by our article. Can you please tell me the earliest written source for
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The only "shared history" is in the origin of their names, but culturally and physically two different desserts.
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Can you share here any source that supports what you are stating about the history? Right now the article for
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is sometimes added to the syrup. This dish is not to be confused with similar sweets and variants like
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different name (like under the name
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You see, I was in the process of correcting this gross misunderstanding, but you reverted my edit.
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is in the Indian sub-continent, but it is NOT in "Arab countries." The one in "Arab countries" is
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on
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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saying is that for there to be an article describing one of these regional varieties, there
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and resembled luqmat al qadi and deep fried, and then soaked in honey and rose water syrup.
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made in different countries, as there are, indeed, slight differences between them. What I
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article it is a fine example of merged foods due to history (and in that case also name).
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I'll repeat this again: my contention is the topic of this thread - your claim that the
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If you are proposing that zalabia should be split into a separate article, feel free to
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be some element of prominence about that particular kind, similar to what we find with
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may have originally started from the Arab variety, as purported by the article itself.
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has tried to make a list of different deep-fried dough desserts, just as we have for
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I have just now removed the duplicate material that appeared in the Jalebi article.
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —
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If you want to make any other changes to the article, feel free to do so with a
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parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under
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of the Middle East does NOT look like, in any way, shape or form, the Indian
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is a mere derivative from the Arabic. See for example the Arabic Lexicon
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Manasollasa a a 12th-century text by chalukya king from karnataka
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Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
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Again, I'm not saying that there are no differences between the
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made here, in Israel, is the same way that it is made in Yemen.
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is first mentioned in the 10th century, in the Arabic cookbook
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That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is whether the
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is in a class of its own, and is NOT intrinsically bound to
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Yule, Henry (1903). "Jelaubee". In Crooke, William (ed.).
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Yule, Henry (1903). "Jelaubee". In Crooke, William (ed.).
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okay im going to do the changes according to your own RS.
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was from fermented urad dal/black gram batter shaped into
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I have travelled extensively throughout the Middle-East (
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The zalabia of arabs originally had a dough made of yeast
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that I have seen are, indeed, puffy (like doughnuts and
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Jalebi, a Persian-origin sweet that is popular in India
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please
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in its make-up). One of the main differences is that
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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2007:is NOT anywhere similar to the Middle-Eastern
1731:mentions a recipe for jalebi or not (as per a
2984:I agree with the points already discussed by
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3050:All the Middle Eastern variants of
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291:Template:WikiProject Food and drink
207:It is of interest to the following
23:for discussing improvements to the
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2628:(English: The Book of Dishes) by
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2696:. In these places, the word
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2342:The Oxford Companion to Food
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1436:18:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
804:Climate change in Bangladesh
3129:C-Class Bangladesh articles
3114:C-Class Arab world articles
2235:doesn't seem to show this.
1971:13:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
1671:, not the West Asian dish.
1623:The one made in manasollasa
1551:22:05, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
1529:What about a merge between
1384:Knowledge:WikiProject Yemen
1279:Knowledge:WikiProject Syria
954:Knowledge:WikiProject India
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
3235:
3219:WikiProject Yemen articles
3204:WikiProject Syria articles
3159:WikiProject India articles
2846:The wikipedia article for
2152:and it is NOT the same as
2116:List of doughnut varieties
1896:17:53, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
1597:thebetterindia.com is not
1521:15:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
1410:project's importance scale
1387:Template:WikiProject Yemen
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1111:project's importance scale
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980:project's importance scale
957:Template:WikiProject India
855:Make a MRT line 3 article.
753:project's importance scale
648:project's importance scale
382:WikiProject Food and drink
356:To edit this page, select
314:project's importance scale
267:WikiProject Food and drink
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3174:WikiProject Iran articles
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2551:City of David (historic)
1948:Please do not modify it.
1479:02:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
1427:WikiProject class rating
806:, it needs a lot of work
513:to learn how to do this.
2724:(Professor emeritus of
2258:is an Arabic word, and
2027:(both, flatbreads); or
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2826:Yalḳuṭ Teman - Lexicon
2730:Yalḳuṭ Teman - Lexicon
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605:WikiProject Arab world
551:Note: These lists are
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535:Assessment task force
100:Neutral point of view
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2630:Ibn Sayyar al-Warraq
2371:. Macmillan. p. 66.
2268:Ibn Manzur al-Ansari
1881:Jalebi Baby 4534.jpg
1511:Completely agree. --
1458:Project Banner with
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500:deletion discussions
105:No original research
2368:A Hanukkah Treasury
848:Take a look at the
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733:Bangladesh articles
628:Arab world articles
394:articles currently
2800:(21 August 2014).
2035:(both, stews); or
1930:Proposed merge of
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1888:Community Tech bot
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405:Agaricus bisporus
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553:transcluded
537:. List any
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259:Food portal
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31:not a forum
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