Talk:LaVoy Finicum

765:

Also, the statement "When asked if he would rather be killed than arrested if the occupation turned violent, Finicum replied, "Absolutely ... I have no intention of spending any of my days in a concrete box.", he never said that. You need to look at the source. He never said those words. Also, saying he was trying to bypass the roadblock is speculative. He was trying to avoid hitting the trucks that were blocking the road. You indicated that information that is biased will not be included. Remove this please. The statement that he "briefly" held his hands above his head is not accurate either. He raised his hands multiple times, not briefly. And please indicate that when he dropped his hands it could have been to reach for a gun shot wound, and not a gun, which is what I believe. Also, the statement that he received medical treatment 10 minutes after he was shot is inaccurate as well. He did not receive medical treatment for over an hour after he was shot. Also, the gun that was apparently found on his person did not come from a step son. Also, in regards to the rally's please give the accurate numbers. The accurate number of rally's was over 45 all over the U.S. during that weekend alone. There is so much more that I could write on issues I have with this biased information. Please start with making these changes and I will add more later

2255:

hands in the air. They aren't the only ones, right-blogosphere is full of "he was murdered with hands up" stuff. Vids show police held fire until the third reach/draw/goading/whatever. They didn't shoot with his hands up. Only when he reached while in a "ready position" that positioned him to draw on the cop by the trees - if that was his intention. That put that officer in immediate harm, so the other two (almost three) defended that guy's life with shots to Finicum's back. Note that the guy in harms way didn't want to murder him, as evidenced by his putting away his weapon and drawing his taser. I don't propose to put all those details in the lead. But we need to say he wasn't "hands up" trying to surrender. As I collect more RSs about maybe Finicum intending to provoke a martyrdom, I may return to the quote too, but for now, I'll be happy with language about what his hands were doing.

1202:

what Finicum's intentions may have been, and therefore deserve to be referenced in the article, until any better evidence might emerge. You still have no evidence whatsoever to support your theory, in so far as I know, or do you? To attempt to suppress this, the best information currently available on the topic, simply to support your own "entirely unsupported" theory, seems to me to be purely POV editing. We all have a POV, but it is the evidence that transforms POV into "an encyclopedic point of fact," not the procedural suppression of relevent conter-evidence.

3149:), I find the language surrounding the vehicle's crash problematic. While it is technically true that the vehicle did narrowly miss the person, it should be noted that the person ran out from behind cover towards the car. Reading the article without seeing the video makes it sound like he aimed for the FBI agent. "Finicum braked and steered his truck left into deep snow, narrowly missing an FBI agent." Could we improve this language or point out that the FBI agent was running in the direction of the oncoming vehicle? 1456:. It is not about overthrowing gov't or Constitution just disputing whether that doc lets that gov't own land in the west. If you skip to time stamp 21:50, he acknowledges the gov't saying he's going to "trespass" and that he's making the vid to "account to his supervisors" (the BLM). That's an explicit acknolwedgement of the continuation of his government and his taking responsibility for breaking the rules of his government. Thus, "revolution" or "overthrow" do not apply because they are not seeking 609: 582: 1858:(B) Foster parenting, though is important to put in proper context because underlying this whole deal are the claims about economics pushing the rancher to extinction, only Finicum earned his bread as foster parent, Ammon as a car fleet guy, and Ryan as a contractor. This isn't a story about ranchers and rancher hardships, that's just the photoshopped sexy image on the cover. The story is a lot of people want to get their hands on federally owned public land for a lot of reasons. 360: 1358:

are not permitted in WP. If you could please point out the error of my summaries regarding the two sentences that you removed, then perhaps they could be better reworded. Otherwise, if you cannot point to any WP policy re primary sources other than the one I have just para-quoted from, please allow me to put this material back. It has had a review request by admins and policy editors. If faulty, it will be removed immediately after the review is complete in the next few days.

339: 1603:"1. The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book." 619: 473: 452: 712: 1124:. In this case, my reading of the sources disagrees. I think Finicum still wanted a government operating with checks and balances under the US Constitution. He just didn't want it to look like what we have. That's a strong political opinion, but stops short, in my opinion, of "overthrow". At any rate, it isn't at all "obvious" that "overthrow" is the right word. Unless used by RSs, and even then we use the word with due 1084:

why you think there is no notable relationship between his book and his actions such that his writing of this book should be thought of as irrelevent to Finicum's mindset or "background" before he became a spokesman for The Malheur Occupiers? Yes, the book is listed as a "Finnicum work" below, but that separate listing doesn't seem to me to substitute for the helpful wording, weaving it into the article's background section.

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be something that folks would both want to know, and could be trusted to know. If you could support with any documentation, your own personal theory that Finicum only wanted to "assure the constitutional checks and balances of the Fed were working," then by all means. Otherwise it is only one editor's undocumented personal theory agaist Finicum's own documented words in Finicum's own book. Which would you pick?

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within the articles. Please don't get lost in attacks on word usage in our discussions here. Rather, this is a place where all are supposed to be encouraged to openly hash out the actual facts of the article, as best they are able, and not get way-laid in attacking and defending one another's ability to sound "encyclopedic" when we talk with each other.

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federal management of public lands. He self-published a novel shortly before joining the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in January 2016 in the U.S. state of Oregon. While traveling away from the occupation site, Finicum fled from a police traffic stop and was later shot and killed at a law enforcement roadblock.

279: 2419:"Oppose. We've got information about his life prior to the protests, his involvement in the 2014 standoff, and his interviews during the ~6 week 2016 standoff prior to his death. None of that is cleanly grouped with his shooting, and a stand-alone article on the shooting is unnecessary because we can cover it here. 2108:

Although I'd like to agree, just hitching them together like mules in a pack string creates redundancy, and redundancy makes the text mushy and not so effective. I'd like to hear Parsley explain what is a POV vio of version 2. I know from many prior threads at various venues that he's wedded to the

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WP does not in any way prohibit the use of primary sources. It only cautions that we be careful to summarize any primary sources in a manner that (para-quoting) "any educated person would be able to see and agree with." Some editors seem to operate under the mistaken impression that primary sources

1219:

I submit that you might serve Knowledge better if you spent more time in finding and presenting evidence to support your own theories, and less time in attempting to suppress evidence that supports theories with which you have chosen to personally disagree, based on purely procedural grounds. All of

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NewsAndEventsGuy, you wrote that Finicum's publication of a book that described the overthrow of the US govenment, a few months before he tried to start what he called the "Oregon Revolution" did not help to describe Finicum's background before Malheur and "isn't backgroud." Could you please explain

764:

Please remove the statement indicating he was a militant. He was not affiliated with any militant group. He was my father in law and I know he was not affiliated with any of these groups. Also, it is not necessary to mention a bankruptcy or income. This has nothing to do what what you are writing.

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In the last years of his life, Finicum was a professional foster parent who operated an Arizona cattle ranch even though the ranch did not produce income. Following the 2014 Bundy standoff near Bunkerville, Nevada Finicum became outspoken against federal management of public lands. He self-published

1915:

The lead is the first part of the article that most people will read. For many, it may be the only section that they read. A good lead section cultivates the reader's interest in reading more of the article, but not by teasing the reader or hinting at content that follows. The lead should be written

1835:

restricts us only from negatively impacting family members - much less restrictive, and really just a directive for us not to be sensationalistic. Only a militant for the last years of his life!? By your logic no one could be called a militant, or a police officer, or any profession for that matter,

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BLP.... it's also a BLP violation since there is no evidence at all that Finicum was a "militant" prior to the 2014 Bundy Standoff at the earliest, and I have my doubts about that date... but for sake of discussion say he was a "militant" in 2014. We are barred from implying he has been making that

1765:

Robert LaVoy Finicum (January 27, 1961 – January 26, 2016) was an American militant, author, and cattle rancher involved in the 2014 Bundy standoff and the 2016 occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. He was shot and killed while attempting to evade a roadblock while traveling outside of

1690:

LaVoy Finicum knew about the traffic stop obviously; before driving away he told them he was going to go to meet with the county sheriff and if they wanted to stop him, they'd have to shoot him. He did not know about the OSP/HRT roadblock down the road behind a bend. Rounding the bend at a high rate

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VQuakr, one goal of mine in this thread is to identify additional sources for points that have not yet been made. You have only replied with policy arguments. You have said nothing about sources or anyone else's assessment of sources. If you set aside the lawyerish argument that notability does

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anything. In my mind, it's just a reorganization and presentation. The first thing to note is that Finicum is almost entirely known, and will remain known far into the future, because he was shot and killed in this particular context and set of circumstances . Everything else will will fade with

2254:

Edit conflict.... I was trying to change "a lot more" because I didn't mean a lot more words. You also took out the part about him reaching down. That's a vital piece of info in continuing controversy. Rep Fiore and Victoria Sharp both said - even though neither could see - he was shot with his

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More About FACT(MILITANT).... Show me an RS that supports contention he did ANYTHING as a "militant" prior to seizing the refuge, please. Vague refs that say he was at Bundy standoff don't count, he may have been scrubbing toilets without a gun. His vid to the BLM saying he was going to trespass

1201:

Thanks for your reply. I'm running late for work right now, but later today I will also include a cite to where Finicum called Malheur the "Washington Revolution." It seems to me that the book and the reference I will give later today are currently the two best pieces of evidence available as to

1164:

The fact is that shortly before he participated in Malheur, Finicum wrote a book in which he painted the US Government as essentially the devil incarnate. It seems to me that Finicum's having just written something like that about the US government, right before his participation in Malheur, would

1937:

Therefore, Version #1 suits the article better than Version #2 because of it. Finicum's plight with foster parenting and the BLM do not establish notability alone. If you want to mention Finicum's status as a foster parent, then it should be mentioned fleetingly like the rest listed in Version #1.

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Robert LaVoy Finicum (January 27, 1961 – January 26, 2016) was, in the last years of his life, a professional foster parent who operated an Arizona cattle ranch even though the ranch did not produce income. Following the 2014 Bundy standoff near Bunkerville, Nevada Finicum became outspoken against

1040:

can be divided into many overlapping legal categories, including murder, manslaughter, justifiable homicide, killing in war (either following the laws of war or as a war crime), euthanasia, and capital punishment, depending on the circumstances of the death." Don't confuse your misconception about

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section, because these activities were all factors in law enforcement's approach to the arrest operation. Tarp man communicated - at least by implcation - that he'd shoot it out before he'd submit to arrest. So naturally, law enforcement moved to execute the warrant in a way that would be least

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read the lead, and that it should therefore summarize the important points and controversies. It explicitly says "DO NOT TEASE". I don't care how we elaborate on the police shooting, but including my text satisfies the requirements Parsley earlier quoted much better than just saying police shot

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of the shrapnel. Since we don't know it was from fragmentation of a bullet or bomb we shouldn't imply that it was by linking to it. But we can still say "shrapnel" as the RS does and let readers take it from there. Eventually we'll hopefully learn more when Ryan uses the pieces in his arm as

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No late night 'went wild' kegger parties in college? In this sense it just means "total miss". "Ricochet" is to bounce of something but I haven't heard any reports of what it hit much less what it bounced off of. The truck apparently has no evidence of a fifth bullet strike, despite all the

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Time... omitting any temporal references, it makes it sound like the man was a militant ranching author from the date of his conception. That's absurd and uninformative, timewise. It also conflicts with facts, since we know he was in another state in 2002 doing business as "SOUTHWEST HORSE AND

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Here on a talk page, the language of our discussions with one another doesn't have to follow the same rules as the language we use in the articles. Editors are generally permitted to talk in their own "natural" voices here, while the encyclopedic voice of Knowledge itself is supposed to be used

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the start of the 2016 occupation. This makes me doubt he was a significant player at Bunkerville, and maybe just popped over for coffee one day. Who knows? His participation was too insignificant to garner coverage. In flashing back two years, the 2016 RSs sound like they're repeating each

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please join us here. I think we can still include almost all of the existing text. The part about his bankruptcy, maybe not (as trivia). The rest all fits within the scope of such an article, as the book and foster kids and his own cattle trespassing 2015 are all relevant background, and the

1956:

Alright, I'll work on a bold edit that emphasizes why he's notable; provides a summary of the overall article (version 1 doesn't do that); and is written in a neutral style. The guy did have respectable qualities (which is why his death is such an effective recruitment tool for the survivors).

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is to summarize the article and establish why the subject is notable. This subject isn't primarily notable because of his foster parenting. I don't really have an opinion about whether "author" should be mentioned in the first sentence, but to me the "status quo" version one is quite superior.

1300:

All you have to support your own personal theory is zip? Yes Finicum's book is a primary source, but primary sources are not prohibited from use in WP. We are only advised to be careful in how we use them, being certain that they are not misconstrued in the way we present them. If you could

888:

The wiki describes LaVoy as a militant. While this term was used by main stream media outlets LaVoy was never a part of any militant organizations. He is also referred to as an American patriot by thousands of supporters. It would seem the terms occupier, or protestor would be most factual.

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This is the most controversial fact surrounding Finicum's death and because of this I think it needs to be sourced. To leave this statement in the Lede just "hanging" creates the impression of narrative and not facts. I came here as the result of reading some online "push back" on the media

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The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually

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The topic of this thread is a possible rename. You should be unsurprised if replies are related to possible renaming of the article rather than content. Highlighting, within such a thread, the decision-making process that we use to consistently name articles is not "lawyerish".

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D. We have a handful of RSs that say he "participated" in the 2014 Bundy standoff but do these establish notability? In my view, no. First the coverage was trivial in that none of them say what he actually DID at that time. Second all of the secondary sources I have seen are

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When one searches on the title of Finicum's book, especially in a Google News search, one finds a lot of secondary sources. Methinks the book pass Notability muster and could be an article of its own. Provided, of course, that its based on truly reliable secondary sources.

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In the earlier discussion, I opposed the proposal. However, after reviewing NAEG and Parsley Man's arguments, I really am fine either way. If it is renamed I would prefer Shooting of LaVoy Finicum as opposed to Death of LaVoy Finicum, in the style of similar articles (e.g.

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doesn't count either. Speech is not the same as seizing facilities with a rifle on your shoulder. So I still think his first overt act of militancy was Jan 2016. The best lead will give the reader that impression because its true. Unless you have RSs that say otherwise.

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about the vehicle being used as a weapon and LEO belief Finicum would try to take out the roadblock injuring LEOs. Consider adding image or vid showing three shots taken as truck first approached. But not right now. If someone else gets to it, then thanks in advance.

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time. What does "everything else" consist of, and what would happen to our coverage of the "everything else" if we make this move? Like I said, we'd keep it with some different organization. Let's compare the points supported by known RSs to the notability policy.

1131:(C) If the book is background, so is his first job, whether his Mom beat him, did he cry when his first horse died, how did he get into ranching... what I'm tryging to say is that the book isn't "background", its part of the main story and deserves a section of its own. 2730:. This guy is only really notable for one thing, the occupation culminating with the shooting. People notable for a single thing don't usually get biographical coverage of their whole (not-notable) lifetime. They might get coverage for the one real thing (example, 1895:. "Robert LaVoy Finicum was, in the last years of his life, a professional foster parent who operated an Arizona cattle ranch even though the ranch did not produce income." Please, please, PLEASE don't tell me that alone doesn't sound like a memorial, because it does. 1013:

The autopsy use of technical language is different than the common usage. Homicide in autopsy just means he was shot, not self-inflicted. It does NOT mean it finds the officer guilty of homocide. So copying this technical language is very bad form for the wiki page.

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Parsley, the RS that says "shrapnel" does not define it, but I've had a bit of emergency med training, and in those contexts the word isn't limited to parts of the bullet or bomb. For example, in Better: A Surgeon's Notes on Performance By Atul Gawande it says

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a novel shortly before joining the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in January 2016. While traveling away from the occupation site, Finicum fled from a police traffic stop and was later shot and killed at a law enforcement roadblock.

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the lead section does not. After all its summarizing stuff already documented in the article. But since you challenge this statement, I've copied references from elsewhere in the article. Most notably the youtube video so you can see it for yourself.

2734:). That's why the notability rules are relevant... they shed light on question whether this is pacakged as a biography of a whole lifetime, or focuses in on the thing encyclopedia readers care about, which isn't really his whole life and times, is it? 2772:

not apply, then maybe you could look at my multiple paragraphs about RS based content and we could talk about the RSs and the content, and identify gaps etc? Or do you just want to stick to policy based arguments and forego participation in content?

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WEIGHT... this is a quibble, but I have problems vaguely saying "author" for a single self published book that was so negatively reviewed. Better to state he wrote a book, which is true, rather than say he was an author, which is true but veeerrrrrry

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No one said WP prohibits primary sources. But there at least two problems with using a primary source (the book) in the way you propose. One is that you propose to link it to the Malheur occupation, which would require interpretation as discussed at

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This could very well be true, but would someone please hold my hand by pointing out an RS that talks about a ricocheting bullet? Does an RS say that is how R Bundy was wounded? If not, then what is the relevance of the ricochet? Help please

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precludes just editing the article), I suggest starting a new section. Rereading above I just see notability mentioned a bunch of times, which I already addressed. There could be some content ideas hidden in there, but there's too much noise.

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of speed, he would have little time for any elaborate plans on dealing with the roadblock. A link to the OSP release of the FBI drone footage time synced to the cellphone video of Finicum's passengers would help understand this event. --

2610:" Had his bankruptcy been a big deal of itself, there would be news coverage of the bankruptcy at the time (2002). There isn't. The only mention of his BK that I know about is found in 2016 articles that told us about the occupiers. 868:

Much of the information listed baled up by sources that portrayed the occupation from a biased standpoint. How can biased information be accepted as a verifiable source? Why are sources that support lavoy not considered acceptable?

2085:'Robert LaVoy Finicum (January 27, 1961 – January 26, 2016) was an American foster parent, author, and cattle rancher involved in the 2014 Bundy standoff and the 2016 militant occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. 1220:

your "procedural maneuvering" seems to be quite a waste of everyone's time and energy, meanwhile WP becomes more of a "thought police" organization, than one which flexibly and elegantly deals whatever evidence may be at hand.

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TRAILS", except we have no clue what that was. Summer camp? Dude ranch? Hired hand? Don't know. All we know is he was foster parenting from 2008-ish until the state went and took his income away when he picked up the rifle.

1138:] except for the events surrounding the occupation, but I didn't try to block the article. That ssaid, this is a by-god biography of the man, not a rehash of the occupation. Therefore the book is just a part of the biography. 2337: 2475:

I've changed my stance to generally oppose; given the very heavy coverage of Finicum both before after his shooting (perhaps more than any other militant besides Ammon Bundy), and his status as a self-published author.

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I've uploaded a new image that I may propose we use here. Using it here may or may not be a good idea, and we might find out we disagree eventually. But for now, I had a small doubt about the image being free of

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No, I do not agree with your assessment that the subject "is only really notable for one thing". In any case, notability and article naming critera are completely different topics. You'll find, I think, that

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on notability grounds then take it to AfD. If you think the subject is notable, then individual aspects of said subject need not be individually notable to merit inclusion in an article about said subject.

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Vquakr, I've seen lots of RSs that say Finicum participated in the 2014 standoff, but that's all they say. I've seen other RSs that say he was inspired by it. Do you know of any RSs that by-god

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Finicum was obviously a man who had the overthrow of the US government firmly in his sights before he went to Malheur. Why do you seem to find evidence to that effect to be irrelevent? Thanks,

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IEDs often produce a combination of penetrating, blunt, and burn injuries. The shrapnel include not only nails, bolts, and the like but also dirt, clothing, and even bone from the assailants."

1401:. My impression is that this is a book that basically no one read; if it has received no or very little mention in secondary sources, it should get no or very little mention in this article. 3258: 2616:" In addition, this only surfaced during the 2016 occupation (when Finicum was asked about this during a taped interview he laughed saying (paraphrased) "Those are some OLD memories!") 2622:, "the public record on Finicum is thin prior to 2014." Now that's interesting.... Here's an RS that basically says before 2014 there's little to no evidence to establish notability. 400: 396: 2366:

events of the occupation were all a factor in the law's design of the operation to try to execute the arrest warrant with a peaceful traffic stop, backed up with a Plan-B roadblock.

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Quote "In total thus far, there have already been five armed standoffs or shows of civil disobedience in the West, resulting from disputes over federal land ownership and management."

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B. There's an RS somewhere about his time as apartment facilities worker in Milwaukee and somewhere else (Portland OR, if I remember correctly) but doesn't go deeper. Policy says "

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him. The alt-right radio agrees police shot him. Everyone agrees police shot him. So when we just stop the lead with "police shot him" we're failing to provide a lead that will

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There is a fair bit to expand re the shooting, in terms of FBI shots and coverage of conspiracy theories and debunking of them.... again, all material related to the shooting.

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We haven't done a good job explaining the Mormon context. For an opinionated and non RS source... to be used as background for eds wanting to do research in this area....see

1419:. There is no special class of "policy editors," and admins are just experienced editors with access to some additional buttons (kind of like how a janitor has lots of keys). 2301:. It seems that Finicum only became this notable after getting shot and killed, and because of the protests from the right-wing community that followed soon after. Thoughts? 666: 392: 2757:

doesn't discuss notability of the subject. If you still think the article should be moved then start a move discussion and I'll !vote; otherwise I think we're done here.

2659:" Finicum was temporarily famous as "tarp man" or for taking down the camera, but he achieved political immortality (or infamy, as you prefer) only through his death. 2657:

Sometimes when a famous person dies, there is enough information for an article about their death, such as Death of Michael Jackson or Death of Diana, Princess of Wales.

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Finally, there is speculation about the privatization advocates who may have financed all this, but so far there aren't any RSs I know of that relate to this article

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respectable about someone who supported the forced impediment of federal government offices. The lede is fine for now, but I continue to have my doubts about this.

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the following sentence (which I added this morning) was reverted. In the lead, I had included an important detail about the shooting. The reverted text said

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3. And the bulk of our article is about the arrest operation that resulted in the shooting, which is what he is mainly notable for. Note that policy says "

2801:

No offense, but when we argue rules without addressing the RS-based content points that arise in the discusssion it just seems like we're a bit off course.

3278: 1397:. As a tertiary source, we don't do that. Second, we need secondary sources to evaluate the level of coverage of the book in those sources as discussed at 656: 382: 1716: 1405:...It has had a review request by admins and policy editors. If faulty, it will be removed immediately after the review is complete in the next few days. 552: 79: 2914:

What I mean is that we follow the RSs and 'apparently went wild' is verbatim from the first quote below. I'm a sport-shooting enthusiast myself (in an

3218: 982:. The official report lists the cause of death as "gunshot wounds of the back, abdomen and chest", while the manner of death is listed as "homicide". 3268: 1407:

Scott, that's now how WP works. Admins and "policy editors" are not supervoters who decide what is included or excluded. We decide, as discussed at

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Add a bit about rate of speed (I've seen RS for Finicum = 60 and pursuing trooper = 90) and dangerous driving while crossing the centerline. Also

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based on date. Show me some nonfiction reliable sources that say Finicum sought to "overthrow" the US government or bring about a "revolution".

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Our rules require that the intro section (called the "lead") be a summary of the main article. Although the article text requires citations to

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improve the presentation of these things, that would be fine with me, but I don't find suppressing them to be helpful. Bye for now. Gotta go.

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narrative on his death, and this unsourced (or unattributed, whatever the correct term is) statement in the Lede gives the impression of bias.

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I plan to restore the text unless someone provides a compelling reason why stopping with "police shot and killed him" makes the best article.

3273: 387: 344: 85: 44: 2927:"Oregon investigators, however, concluded that one agent fired twice at the truck, hitting it in the roof and missing on the second shot." 919: 301: 1924:

established in the first few sentences. Like in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly

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hints that there's some convention here at wikipedia to title these "Shooting of...." instead of "death of...."; I am happy with either.

1979:"The guy did have respectable qualities (which is why his death is such an effective recruitment tool for the survivors)." You see, it's 3208: 3122:

The description of the photograph of the attempted traffic stop reads "Oregon State Patrol." The agency's proper name is "Oregon State

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other. With no details, and most especially no RS dated AT THAT TIME, I this was trivial coverage that does not establish notability.

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In the main thread, and at other venues, Scott has asserted that Finicum's goal was the "overthrow" of the government or "revolution" (

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Well, no one has been responding for a while so I wanted to know if anyone else was going to voice an opinion. Don't be so defensive.

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problems, so I asked eds who are interested in that area of policy to comment. You can share you views too of course. The thread is

644: 305: 1932:. Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article. 3263: 3243: 2608:

Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject.

509: 296:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 1475: 3233: 2578:

Didn't see this above the larger section last now. Defensiveness wasn't my goal; I was just answering the question as I read it.

836: 3069:"He was shot and killed by state troopers while moving his hands toward his pocket, where officers later found a loaded weapon." 2064: 1917: 937: 292: 256: 99: 30: 3006:"::*Oregon investigators concluded that one agent fired twice at the truck, hitting the roof and missing on the second shot." 979: 2692:

If you are proposing keeping all the same content and just moving the article to a "death of" title, then I would oppose per

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Video shows he was shot and killed when he dropped his hands to his side while yelling, 'You're going to have to shoot me'."

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None of these RSs say anything about Finicum wanting to "overthrow" the gov't or instigate a "revolution" in the sense of a

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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F. There's probably secondary RS about his late 2015 decision to stop paying grazing fees, at least from a local paper.

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The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents. It is not a news-style

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I'm confused, VQuakr is talking about Buzzfeed and Scott replied with a reference to an unnamed primary source. Huh?

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FACT(RANCHER)... His own blessed words say his money was in foster parenting, and the ranch was a break even thing.

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I added the last bit (number of rallies) based on the Oregonlive.com reference provided. The other two sources are

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AND SO..... 1. Everything we know about Finicum before the occupation - which is very little - fits nicely in a

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E. Self published book. Do we have a secondary RS dated from before the occupation that talks about the book?

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Housekeeping...I'm guessing this will become used. We can waste it when we close the thread if its still empty

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I find the wording of "went wild" to be rather confusing. Went wild, as in how? What do you mean by that?

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In my opinion, version 1 suffers from problems regarding time, BLP, WEIGHT, and factually following RSs.

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Manner of death is listed as gunfire. The official autopsy report lists the cause of death as homicide.

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likley to kick off a battle between small armies. All that stuff is prelude-to-the-shooting material

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Focus on the content, not the editors please. Scott, what secondary sources discuss this book at all?

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4. When the article is more complete at least 80% of it will be about the traffic stop and shooting.

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2016 refuge occupation and death: Flight and death. - After watching the aerial footage many times (

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if by "any other objections?" you mean you still think the move is a good idea, then I would have a

1861:(C) I'll wait for more comments before attempting a new proposed version working with these comments 1855:(A) Dope, good point on BLP/BDP, I haven't had to deal with BLP for a long time and forgot. Thanks. 219: 3044:(not a choke hold or a punch or a direct gunshot). But unfortunately the RS does not explain the 1509: 1465: 1408: 1134:(D) Originally I was opposed to this separate article since I don't think the guy was sufficiently 1060: 904:

Well, I'm sorry, but if that's how a majority of sources describe Finicum, then Knowledge follows.

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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objection to you moving the page without a formal move discussion closed by an uninvolved party.

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All you've got is your own reading of a work of fiction and a phrase of colorful rhetoric from a

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trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability

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A. PACER contains a record of his bankruptcy. However, that doesn't count because policy says "

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So restore the text and revert the quote. Or else elaborate because there's a lot more there.

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http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/02/02/Finicum%20family%20statement2.pdf

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After looking at this article, I was wondering of the possibility of renaming the article to

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I fail to see how including a quote elaborates on the police shooting any more efficiently.

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his shooting, so the "after" bit you reference is an argument in favor of the rename, IMO.

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Rename is highly appropriate, though I prefer "death" to mere "shooting". See the thread

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Still opposed; for the reasons I listed in my previous !vote in the previous discussion.

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http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/06/oregon_standoff_case_defense_l.html

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http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html

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http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/dozens_of_rallies_in_memory_of.html

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http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/07/fed_judge_possible_misconduct.html

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I'll collect some sources here later, and then we will have something to evaluate.

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The text is intended to comply with the MOS:LEAD, which in another recent thread,

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Chris Zinda's Sept 1 2016 column "Journalism and the Cowboy Myth: Bite the Bullet"

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summariz(ing) the most important points, including any prominent controversies.

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by giving undue attention to less important controversies in the lead section.

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The Oregonian story "LaVoy Finicum's last moments echo earlier provocations".

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02-25-2016 another new story about Finicum's owernship claims to public lands

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sense). "Went wild" is part of my vocab. How would you like to say it?

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2. The many RSs about what he did during the occupation fit nicely in a

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List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States,_2016

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Nope. Not that type of person. Anyway, thank you for the explanation.

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I think the two paragraphs should be merged, into something like this:

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Women's History Month: Create or improve articles for women listed at

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vocab. But I'm not sure how else to say it, if it wasn't a ricochet.

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This source says the shots were aimed at the truck, and one missed

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11-01-2015 News story re LaVoy's land claims and working with gov't

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Version 2 does not have those problems, so it should be restored.

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at some length. The quoted text describes how many/most readers

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source, which editors often misinterpret. We prefer quality

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Inaccurate and Biased Information....Please Remove and Change

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I guess I am not seeing how the two are mutually exclusive.

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You are welcome to make these changes, however they must be

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Context should be given for "narrowly missing an FBI agent"

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that would support the heavy coverage on him pre-shooting?

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label "militant". Are there other P objects to version 2?

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kind of rhetoric that makes me think Version #2 was such a

1742:. I was just reverted with an edit summary "very POV". ( 3064:

Critical Fact Needs Attribution,. Particularly in the Lede

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only included Buzzfeed, which is not generally considered

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This content dispute is about what we should say in the

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None taken. If you want to talk content (and feel that

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High Country News "Forty years of Sagebrush Rebellion"

1120:(B) Anytime anyone says "obviously", I start thinking 160: 1102:(A) I changed the section heading to comply with the 2166:

stated in the edit summary but (s)he left it blank.

2317: 2862:Tay Wiles; Jonathan Thompson (January 27, 2016). 2318:Talk:LaVoy_Finicum#Move_to_Death_of_LaVoy_Finicum 1652:in Counterpunch, and other sources cited by him. 1537:2-10-16 Oregon Takeover Update: The Plot Thickens 3259:C-Class United States articles of Low-importance 2269:Alright, I'll make sure the lede reflects that. 1798:sort of trouble his whole life under BLP policy. 1179:I prefer RSs; at the moment you're citing your 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 3040:So we have an RS that defines Ryan's injury as 1831:BLP? Sorry to break it to you, but he's dead. 1500:. They all say it was part of a long running 2967:damage from the foam BIPs and pepper rounds. 2443:at Bunkerville and/or say what he was doing? 932:You seem to trust msm even ifvthey are wrong 174: 8: 2753:doesn't speak to article naming and in turn 2293:Possible rename to Shooting of LaVoy Finicum 2125:LEAD AGAIN - Elaborating on why police fired 1486:Just last week... Aug 25 2016 Boulder Weekly 809:and not usable for contentious information. 3147:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLHiU8gYWY 3099:what Knowledge defines as a reliable source 1041:the meaning of a word with "common usage". 848:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDtITDY0FYA 2240:I don't understand what you mean there... 1750:Ouch. AGF, eh?) So let's talk about it. 1015: 774: 576: 446: 333: 245: 1600:of the following criteria (bold added) - 2184:"stand on its own as a concise overview" 3224:Low-importance Law enforcement articles 3074:2605:6000:6947:AB00:AD2E:C4D3:781E:7FE3 2854: 2056: 1183:of a work of fiction to defend the way 1022:2605:A601:116C:6500:F8B1:5E33:4A9D:5D09 829: 578: 448: 335: 247: 217: 1881:Sorry, but Version #2 sounded like an 1836:since they weren't born that way. The 3254:Low-importance United States articles 2650:Occupation activities before shooting 1532:2-25-16 who-funded-malheur-occupation 409:Knowledge:WikiProject Law Enforcement 7: 3229:WikiProject Law Enforcement articles 1916:in a clear, accessible style with a 630:This article is within the scope of 494:This article is within the scope of 412:Template:WikiProject Law Enforcement 290:This article is within the scope of 1926:reflect its importance to the topic 884:Correct term used to describe LaVoy 677:Knowledge:WikiProject United States 236:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 3279:WikiProject United States articles 680:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 2948:Well, "went wild" is not part of 2719:We're not merely renaming, we're 1504:effort regarding federally owned 563:Women of the West, Oregon chapter 3219:C-Class Law enforcement articles 3088: 2515:the "heavy coverage" of Finicum 2148:For a reference, I had included 1706:FYI thread that may interest you 722: 617: 607: 580: 481: 471: 450: 368: 358: 337: 277: 267: 249: 218: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 3269:Low-importance Arizona articles 2725:biography of a whole life : --> 2158:I'd love to include the reason 1342:for review in-context. Thanks! 934:2001:14BB:11E:C4D2:0:0:C12:3101 697:This article has been rated as 538:This article has been rated as 429:This article has been rated as 314:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography 3249:C-Class United States articles 3239:Low-importance Oregon articles 3214:WikiProject Biography articles 3059:02:18, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 3022:14:54, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 2991:02:10, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 2977:02:05, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 2962:01:48, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 2944:01:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 2910:01:24, 14 September 2016 (UTC) 2895:20:21, 13 September 2016 (UTC) 2830:00:28, 17 September 2016 (UTC) 2811:23:34, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2797:22:41, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2782:21:47, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2767:19:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2744:11:06, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2715:04:30, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2688:18:27, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2671:11:16, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2588:04:31, 16 September 2016 (UTC) 2574:08:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2560:06:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2533:18:20, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2504:04:45, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2486:04:31, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2471:04:27, 15 September 2016 (UTC) 2453:09:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2435:09:24, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2411:04:44, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2395:02:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2376:01:42, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2350:01:51, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2330:01:44, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2311:01:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2279:01:24, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2265:01:19, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2250:01:10, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2236:01:09, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2222:01:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2207:01:05, 11 September 2016 (UTC) 2038:refs for this section (if any) 2026:02:59, 10 September 2016 (UTC) 2004:00:32, 10 September 2016 (UTC) 1967:00:08, 10 September 2016 (UTC) 317:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 3184:weight one way or the other. 2119:01:58, 9 September 2016 (UTC) 2103:01:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC) 1948:21:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC) 1873:02:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC) 1851:02:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC) 1826:01:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC) 1729:15:31, 6 September 2016 (UTC) 1701:07:46, 13 November 2016 (UTC) 1686:11:59, 2 September 2016 (UTC) 1662:12:57, 1 September 2016 (UTC) 1055:Also the autopsy report is a 942:12:36, 16 February 2024 (UTC) 735:This article is supported by 512:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 3274:WikiProject Arizona articles 3172:is to research what we call 2732:Shooting_of_Philando_Castile 1516:, and overview article from 1073:10:13, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 1051:07:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 1030:04:16, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 518:Knowledge:WikiProject Oregon 302:contribute to the discussion 2519:his shooting is almost all 1930:reliable, published sources 1634:16:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1620:15:55, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1589:04:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1571:02:20, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1551:13:43, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1454:LaVoy's own vid in Aug 2015 1429:04:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1382:01:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1368:01:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1352:01:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC) 1311:16:43, 29 August 2016 (UTC) 1270:16:37, 29 August 2016 (UTC) 1230:16:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC) 1197:16:05, 29 August 2016 (UTC) 1175:04:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC) 1150:11:12, 28 August 2016 (UTC) 1116:11:03, 28 August 2016 (UTC) 1097:05:03, 28 August 2016 (UTC) 928:19:10, 14 August 2023 (UTC) 559:Oregon Women of Achievement 553:collaborations of the month 521:Template:WikiProject Oregon 388:WikiProject Law Enforcement 381:This article is within the 50:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 3295: 3209:C-Class biography articles 3112:16:57, 3 August 2018 (UTC) 3082:16:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC) 2383:Shooting of Antonio Martin 1807:See quote in this footnote 703:project's importance scale 544:project's importance scale 3194:14:16, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 3164:You've done what we call 3159:08:52, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 3136:18:00, 20 June 2019 (UTC) 2647:Shooting of LaVoy Finicum 2638:Shooting of LaVoy Finicum 2415:VQuakr at that time said 2336:Curious, a quick look at 2299:shooting of LaVoy Finicum 2016:). Thanks for your input. 1593:Per Notability (Books) - 718: 696: 633:WikiProject United States 602: 550: 537: 466: 428: 353: 262: 244: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 3264:C-Class Arizona articles 3244:WikiProject Oregon pages 2065:WP:Neutral point of view 1754:Text of the two versions 1734:Disputed lead paragraphs 1644:Mormon part of the story 1624:I support the proposal. 1472:over to private control. 1006:02:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC) 992:02:21, 26 May 2016 (UTC) 966:07:30, 25 May 2016 (UTC) 914:01:26, 9 June 2016 (UTC) 899:07:28, 25 May 2016 (UTC) 879:07:34, 25 May 2016 (UTC) 819:03:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC) 801:00:00, 11 May 2016 (UTC) 781:22:08, 10 May 2016 (UTC) 638:United States of America 415:Law enforcement articles 3234:C-Class Oregon articles 3168:. The only way to say 2012:", here is the version 1185:you connected some dots 2461:Any other objections? 1934: 1910:lead or lede paragraph 1673:County attorney remark 1556:new article suggestion 978:The autopsy report is 715: 683:United States articles 226:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 2599:Moving does not mean 1918:neutral point of view 1906: 714: 293:WikiProject Biography 100:Neutral point of view 3166:WP:Original research 2618:C. According to the 2010:The lede is fine now 1468:main goal - to turn 1122:WP:Original research 1078: 625:United States portal 105:No original research 3174:WP:Reliable sources 1838:purpose of the lead 1510:Sagebrush Rebellion 1466:Sagebrush rebellion 738:WikiProject Arizona 651:Articles Requested! 1449:. For example... 1181:own interpretation 918:He wasn't, though 716: 497:WikiProject Oregon 320:biography articles 232:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 3180:say, without any 3118:Incorrect caption 2868:High Country News 2620:High Country News 2048: 2047: 1514:Wise Use Movement 1258:Confirmation bias 1256:source? 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