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649:
This would also be consistent with the more specialised definition in terms of states at the Fermi energy. BTW, what is this latter definition, and in what conditions does it apply? I further note that, according to Google Ngram, the term "semiconductor" is about 20 times more common in the
English corpus than the term "Fermi energy." And the term "semiconductors" yields about 7 times more hits than "Fermi energy", in ACS Journals. ---
722:) is by no means "standard", nor is it necessary in an article about nonmetals from a chemistry-based perspective. While band structure definitions of metallicity are useful, they only strictly apply, as I understand it, at absolute zero, which has little relevance in chemistry as it is ordinarily practiced. Further, as Dowben noted, "No single definition will be completely successful": Dowben PA,
747:. Between these two extremes there is a "gray" region of metallicity that is not very well defined. This difficulty in defining what is a metal and what is not becomes particularly difficult when the gap between valence and conduction bands becomes very small. With a small gap, one is often limited by finite resolution of the measurements or temperature."
1048:
Sorry I disagree with your characterization of what
Knowledge (XXG) represents. Yes, multiple sources are cited in (hopefully!) every article. But the sources are in support of a concept described in the sources. That is not the case here. These sources do not describe "abundance extraction or use of
230:
This is because the term "Nonmetal (physics)" was a misnomer. The text was standard metal as having states, which is used everywhere. However, "Nonmetal (everywhere except chemical elements and in stars)" while accurate would be silly. I am trying to clean a mess in steps, this is one. Note that most
178:
and many more. This page deals with the term when used for pure elements. That is fine and textbook chemistry (although the page meanders a bit), but that is not the sole use of the term, just one of many. Looking at the history this page was renamed from
Nonmetal (chemistry) so it could be nominated
648:
And the traditional postion of H at the far left of the periodic table is less than helpful. Beyond single elements, bearing in mind
Knowledge (XXG) articles are aimed at general readers, a reference to semiconductors (e.g. in solar cells) and insulators (e.g. in the form of glass) would be optimal.
1325:
In terms of the broad contours of the situation, there are no surprises that I can see, with metal uses being based on their conductivity and structural strength; and the nonmetals being used for their semiconducting properties, and their biogenic properties. I guess the frequency of uses of metals
1089:
Now let me contrast this with other sections. Earlier in the article, in "Chemical", we learn that nonmetal oxides are acidic never basic. This is fact about "nonmetals". Compounds of nonmetals and metals are ionic: a fact about nonmetals. The multiple references in this section are about nonmetals
996:
The section "Abundance, extraction, and use" is not, as far as I can tell, about "nonmetals". Rather it is a section about elements restricted to the category nonmetals. The section does not summarize knowledge in verified references about the abundance of nonmetals, their extraction as nonmetals,
704:
speaking as the lead editor of the subject article, it is not PT-based per se. Rather, the article shows where nonmetals, as chemical elements, are located (approximately) in periodic table terms, noting chemistry is replete with fuzzy definitions. The article then discusses nonmetals in terms of
1085:
Nothing in this section relates the content to the article topic. It is just a laundry list of raw materials, with no connection. Is there anything special about nonmetals that uniquely or commonly alters how they are extracted? Not according to this section. Per the point about geochemistry, I
1004:
I don't believe that one can have a section on the abundance, extraction, and use of nonmetals because the characteristics that define the category "nonmetal" do not predict unique abundance, extraction or use issues. It's easy to prove me wrong with a reliable reference. If one exists it is not
1144:
All that said, I've added some contextual material in an attempt to meet you half-way. So the abundance of H and He is explained, there is now a link to stellar nucleosynthesis, and Xe gets a look in. There is some elaboration of the crust, and why the CHONPSSe nonmetals feature so much in the
1321:
Still on the metals, "Medical" covers implants and prosthetics; surgical instruments; diagnostic equipment; dental applications; medical devices (pacemakers, stents, defibrillators); radiation therapy; pharmaceuticals; orthodontics; biomaterials; laboratory equipment (centrifuges, incubators,
520:", while no doubt done with good intent, has compounded the situation in my view. That there is a field of science called metallurgy, but not for nonmetallurgy, doesn't help. "Nonmetal (periodic table)" looks interesting. But I would like some more time to think all of this through, again.
1127:
An encyclopedic article benefits from summarizing key facts and data points about a topic. The "laundry list" approach allows us to cover various facets of nonmetals in one place, making it easier for readers to grasp the broader picture without needing to consult multiple
1049:
nonmetals" because the characteristics of "nonmetal"-ness does not affect the abundance of nonmetals, extraction or use of nonmetals. The section is just places the information in conjunction and cites it. The information is not related to the concept of "nonmetals".
1355:
Use of metallic elements and nonmetallic elements is almost exclusively in compounds. When we use this then "uses" becomes everything manufactured. No short list like this on uses is encyclopedically relevant here, and also it will never be correct
1072:
mentions facts with references, but says the composition is split between nonmetals and metals. That is referenced fact but it is not about nonmetals, it's about the Earth. The paragraph is devote of information about "nonmetal" ness. In fact the
1152:
BTW: You wrote earlier, " summarizes articles about elements selected by wikipedia editors based on the element being one discussed in the article." Not so; I developed the article based on the literature, rarther than WP articles on individual
1169:(Just a minor point to clarify: by "selected by wikipedia editors" I meant "developed based on inappropriate selections from the literature". In my opinion literature in "Nonmetal" should be about "non metal", not randomly selected facts).
351:
is a bad choice as this article attempts to restrict itself to the elements on the periodic table rather than all nonmetallic substances from a chemistry perspective, as would be implied by the proposed target. IMO better choices would be
118:
Almost impossible to analyse consensus in a very chaotic discussion that spans multiple sections. In any case, there doesn't seem to be enough consensus to move. Also, I assume the proposal includes moving the current disambiguation page
951:
proposal has done an excellent job of generating thoughtful discussion, but it seems that it has not attracted good support, and all expressed supporters - including the proposer - prefer a different move target. The proposer
903:—a temperature at which chemistry is not generally practiced. The distinction between chemistry and physics perspectives is well-documented and serves to clarify the different contexts in which the term 'nonmetal' is used.
1114:
Tx for your detailed feedback. While the section on "Abundance, extraction, and use" doesn't strictly connect these aspects to the defining characteristics of nonmetals, I feel there's value in presenting this information
997:
nor the use of nonmetals. Rather it summarizes articles about elements selected by wikipedia editors based on the element being one discussed in the article. The concept of abundance, extraction and use of "nonmetals" is
1199:
Consequently using the term "nonmetal" in the context of cosmic abundance means only H and He, and in my opinion discussing stellar abundance of "nonmetals" without mention this fundamental difference is confusing.
1314:
In the context of the nonmetal article, this table compares the main uses of metals and nonmetals. Frex, nearly all metals have uses in electronics and metallurgy. The table is based on the elements up to uranium.
911:
does not negate the fact that chemistry and physics often employ different criteria and terminology. Once again, I remind you that
Knowledge (XXG) is aimed at the general reader, not specialists with doctorates.
1140:
The section provides a useful overview that enhances the general reader’s understanding of these elements. I feel that this approach aligns with the goal of creating a comprehensive and informative encyclopedia
1027:
Thanks. Most of
Knowledge (XXG) represents information synthesized from multiple sources—in an encyclopedic manner—there being no single article in which all the information in the article is set out in one
618:) use the more general definition in terms of states at the Fermi energy, except astronomers (and they themselves joke about their useage according to a friend). Why, I just added to the "physics page".
1145:
biomass. The extraction section makes reference to the physical and chemical properties of the elements concerned and gives some examples. A similar start has been added to the Uses section.
670:
The definition in terms of E_F is standard and necessary. It is mildly technical, but only at the level of 1st year science undergrads. The figure I added about 30 mins ago should help.
1318:
For the metals, "Metallurgy" includes any application where metals are used in their primary form or processed into alloys, components, or structures for various industrial purposes.
1186:
What these sections need is references that connect "nonmetal" to abundance, extraction, or use. Even one reference in the entire section that discusses "nonmetal" would be a start.
1060:
What about "nonmetal" relates to the domination of the observable universe? If nonmetal-ness causes domination of the universe, why is Xe rare? (I expected to read about
1359:
Similarly "abundance" is not a property, it is a geological and nuclear consequence. Information on this could go into articles on those topics, it does not belong here.
130:
1031:
While it's somewhat true that the characteristics that define the category "nonmetal" do not predict unique abundance, extraction or use issues, this is not an issue.
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1183:"How does it look now?" Sorry, I think you are missing my point. Adding more random facts unrelated to the topic is not meeting me half way, it's going further away.
855:
1a would be an intro to 1b; 2. should have a reduced version of the current and 3. already exists. Both 2. and 3. should be mentioned in 1, and 3. already is.
645:
379:) is the everyday, nontechnical use of the term. Your average WP reader is not technically or scientifically minded, so we who are should put aside mind
127:, although that is not explicitly stated. This should be included in a future move request. Please consider the above if creating a new move request.
204:, a title which does not clearly distinguish it as a physics article as opposed to a chemistry article. I think the situation is a bit of a mess. --
584:
will use either the physics- or chemistry-based definitions of nonmetallic elements and the physics-based definition of nonmetallic substances. ---
1134:
The information in the section is supported by reliable references. This ensures that the content is verifiable and based on established knowledge.
1005:
cited in the section AFAICT. (To be sure I think this was well intended and not designed with an agenda other than creating a good article.)
621:
A big topic in solid-state chemistry was high-temperature superconductors (metallic oxides) and more recently new materials for batteries.
215:
1077:
of elements according to their geochemistry, is a well developed science and it does not rely on "nonmetal" as described in this article.
802:
I'm in favor of some change. However, names with parenthesis are, I believe, very unlikely to be typed directly by users. Please consider
105:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
368:. I think each of these is preferable to the proposed target, and while I prefer the first, I could happily live with any of the four.
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Tx for starting the discussion. I find the nomenclature situation to be quite difficult to untangle, once the fields of physics and
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is generally conceived based on the physical and chemical properties of the elements, rather than primarily on the physics-based
220:
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Rather, all the information about the abundance of nonmetals, their extraction, and uses is supported by reliable sources. ---
512:
enter the picture, not to mention the notion of nonmetals as "elements or substances with nonmetallic properties". Renaming
975:
Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
891:
Knowledge (XXG) aims to reflect representative ideas found in the literature, not personal views. In chemistry, the term
382:
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suspect no such connection is known to science. This section creates the impression of a connection, there is none.
1074:
737:"At finite temperature T, a nonmetal has a gap between the occupied states and the unoccupied states greater than 3
606:
pure elements in chemistry there is a demarcation based upon where they sit in the periodic table -- which is why @
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it is not restricted to technical matters. With this caveat, I would support moving that article to the unmodified
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has made the situation even more of a mess. I'll follow up my concerns in this regard on that other talk page. ---
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for a FAR -- that is not a great rationale. I am proposing moving it back so it is an equal partner, not the king.
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555:, hydrogen (H) and helium (He) are counted as nonmetals, with all heavier elements being regarded as metals.
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I've struck out my support and now oppose this proposal. Taking a leaf out of the books of YBG and Ldm1954,
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Finally extraction does not belong, that should be in a mining page and is probably already in metallurgy.
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1b. Physics=Chemistry=Materials
Science=Metallurgy=Mechanical Engineering=General Science, no states at Ef
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in ceramics and glass production includes the capacity of transition metals to form coloured compounds.
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different in their uses, so that is just wrong. Remember that the Nobel Prize for DFT was in chemistry.
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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over the other three alternatives I listed? Or do you see one of the others as superior?
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The aim is to provide a consolidated overview of relevant information about nonmetals.
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In chemistry, nonmetallic elements are characterized by low density and high
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I intend to update the nonmetal article accordingly, in due course. ---
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1193:"So all the chemical elements produced in stars are considered metals."
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oppose having a different term for chemistry & physics as they are
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158:– There is currently a mess of "Nonmetal" pages, with this one, a stub
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Nonmetals and metalloids are extracted from a variety of raw materials
1055:"The nonmetals hydrogen and helium dominate the observable universe"
577:, while nonmetallic substances are semiconductors or non-conductors.
264:, which explains the different treatment of metals and nonmetals in
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272:, which explains how metals and nonmetals are regarded in physics.
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Hmm. A demarcation based on where they sit in the periodic table
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I'll set out a consolidated proposal below, in a new thread. ---
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that these are not relevant sections on the topic of nonmetals,
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Now there is a strong connection between "metal" and abundance:
822:. In searches these perform the same, but are easier to type.
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for
Nonmetal (and hence what should be at the undisambiguated
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chemists use the states at E_F for a metal in compounds etc.
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NB. Unfortunately terms such as glass won't work, look up
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980:"Abundance, extraction, and use" seems like synthesis.
602:, sorry but that is not quite right. When discussing
849:2. Periodic table, a special case for high school
562:, nonmetallic elements and substances are either
548:A nonmetal is a nonmetallic element or substance.
764:if you will, which is commonly understood as an
166:and there are other uses of the term such as in
162:for the conventional energy band approach, one
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924:are much closer to the mark in this regard.
899:distinction, which only strictly applies at
724:The metallicity of thin films and overlayers
393:seems like it could be a good start at that
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385:. I think that the page formerly known as
95:The following is a closed discussion of a
170:and also it is related to topics such as
1132:Supporting information with references:
705:their physical and chemical properties.
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
907:'s 1998 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for
843:1a. Non scientific, i.e. gentle intro
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114:The result of the move request was:
956:may wish to withdraw this request.
852:3. Astronomy, a historical artifact
733:Complicating matters, Dowben adds:
610:'s suggested renaming makes sense.
1125:Value of a comprehensive overview:
518:Nonmetallic compounds and elements
391:Nonmetallic compounds and elements
324:Nonmetallic compounds and elements
202:Nonmetallic compounds and elements
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318:Your changing of the name of the
989:§ Abundance, extraction, and use
971:The discussion above is closed.
545:Please correct me if I'm wrong:
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730:vol. 40, nos. 6–8, pp. 151–247.
1067:The Earth's mantle and core...
840:, I think there are four uses:
131:closed by non-admin page mover
1:
1227:Uses of metals and nonmetals
418:I support both proposals by @
260:would then have links to (i)
818:(could be an overview), and
614:single elements scientists (
366:Nonmetallic chemical element
711:the definition in terms of
381:and stifle the urge to say
358:Nonmetal (chemical element)
88:Requested move 12 June 2024
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1090:as a category of elements.
1075:Goldschmidt classification
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909:Density Functional Theory
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453:I also prefer the first.
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1093:I hope this is clearer.
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1015:17:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
973:Please do not modify it.
728:Surface Science Reports,
102:Please do not modify it.
1052:Just to give examples:
1001:from these references.
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164:Nonmetal (astrophysics)
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1148:How does it look now?
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18:Talk:Nonmetal
1328:
1324:
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1307:Smart phones
1137:
1131:
1124:
1118:
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995:
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888:
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727:
720:Fermi energy
712:
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615:
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553:astrophysics
551:Uniquely in
394:
344:
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266:astrophysics
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78:
43:
37:
1346:Johnjbarton
1247:Electronics
1202:Johnjbarton
1171:Johnjbarton
1095:Johnjbarton
1023:Johnjbarton
1007:Johnjbarton
999:synthesized
918:Johnjbarton
905:Walter Kohn
897:Fermi level
838:Johnjbarton
824:Johnjbarton
814:(current),
762:plate glass
322:article to
268:; and (ii)
262:Metallicity
107:move review
36:This is an
1286:Automotive
1255:Metallurgy
1243:Nearly all
1238:Nonmetals
1153:nonmetals.
1028:reference.
568:insulators
510:metallurgy
168:Metallurgy
116:not moved.
1303:Dyestuffs
889:baseless.
766:insulator
343:move but
207:King of ♥
79:Archive 7
73:Archive 6
68:Archive 5
60:Archive 1
1290:Ceramics
1272:Medicine
1264:Lighting
1232:How many
1128:sources.
893:nonmetal
860:strongly
804:Nonmetal
399:Nonmetal
395:provided
377:Nonmetal
347:target.
172:Ceramics
150:Nonmetal
125:Nonmetal
1364:Ldm1954
1356:enough.
1251:Medical
954:Ldm1954
883:Ldm1954
868:Ldm1954
800:Support
694:Ldm1954
679:Ldm1954
640:Ldm1954
623:Ldm1954
560:physics
541:Ldm1954
504:Ldm1954
455:Ldm1954
423:Ldm1954
341:Support
314:Ldm1954
309:Comment
249:Support
233:Ldm1954
195:Comment
181:Ldm1954
39:archive
1331:Sandbh
1268:lasers
1235:Metals
1157:Sandbh
1141:entry.
1036:Sandbh
926:Sandbh
806:(per @
773:Sandbh
651:Sandbh
612:Beyond
600:Sandbh
586:Sandbh
580:Other
522:Sandbh
473:Sandbh
401:title.
345:oppose
328:Sandbh
294:Sandbh
276:Sandbh
254:Oppose
136:Vpab15
949:WP:RM
947:This
760:, or
758:glass
698:Sigh.
16:<
1368:talk
1335:talk
1282:Most
1274:and
1266:and
1222:Uses
1206:talk
1175:talk
1161:talk
1155:---
1110:John
1099:talk
1040:talk
1011:talk
987:See
962:talk
930:talk
920:and
872:talk
828:talk
777:talk
771:---
683:talk
655:talk
627:talk
604:only
590:talk
539:and
526:talk
516:to "
500:Tx.
485:talk
459:talk
445:talk
427:talk
410:talk
404:———
332:talk
298:talk
290:I've
280:talk
274:---
237:talk
185:talk
140:talk
958:YBG
922:YBG
864:not
808:YBG
754:No,
718: (
709:No,
702:No,
665:YBG
608:YBG
566:or
558:In
537:YBG
496:YBG
481:YBG
441:YBG
420:YBG
406:YBG
364:or
360:or
356:or
1370:)
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64:←
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296:(
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222:♠
217:♣
212:♦
183:(
138:(
133:)
129:(
50:.
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