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241:, there are sources which say he is a great, this is a question of which word to use to reflect how many people believe a certain point of view. Personally I would always use some as most implies more than half, as for "often regarded", again that implies more than half. I personally don't think there are enough sources to suggest "often regarded" or "most" but then most sources about how great he is compared to others are unlikely to be released until he retires as we have seen with other drivers, if need be we can visit the discussion then.
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seasons of
Formula 1 (2017, 2018) have been about two of the "Greats" of formula 1 fighting for the championship in LH and SV, which suggests both these drivers are held in the same regard. Possibly a compromise such as the one used for FA could be used, However by saying 'some' implied most don't believe he is one of the greatest, which is not the case looking at the number of sources. Like previously mentioned, while the career is still active it will be up for much debate until his entire career has been shown.
31:
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sources online and have to 'deduce' that It is more widespread than 'some' then that should be reflected in the article. Plus, the previous seasons being named as the 'Battle of two greats' does have a profound effect on the status of Vettel being on a comparable level to
Hamilton who, on his article, is 'Widely regarded' as one of the greatest.
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any clearer. My point still stands, two sources does not constitute the conventional definition of 'countless' and you are yet to demonstrate it is a view held by the many. Unless you are able to do so, stop repeating the same thing over and over again and either chose another line of argument or let others give their opinion.
1009:. I'm not arguing against sources. Yet again, you are being utterly incoherent. I am pointing out your total misrepresentation of those very sources. Neither have I claimed you were 'attacking' me, so I don't know why you put that in quotation marks. You seem to misquote me in the same way you misuse your sources.
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I agree. My first option would be to simply have a massive cut in the prose (it's already over 250k bytes!), as like you said, you would face the same problem when creating that breakaway article. I'm willing to help reduce its length (when I have the time), but I'm not experienced in writing a solid
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Maybe
English isn't your first language. The 'grid' refers to the drivers racing in Formula One at that time. Therefore the Webber quote is not relevant as it does not concern the subject's place among the greats of Formula One, only the drivers on the grid at the time. I literally can't spell it out
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I've provided several quotes from respected people within F1, including his former teammate, who if anything would not favour his main rival throughout the most successful part of his career. Countless sources have been put forward that 100% backs my argument. When I stated its the same for both, I'm
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I'm not sure how this would be sourced, but if you google sebastian vettel formula 1, before you click the link to the official f1 page, it says in text "The youngest F1 Championship winner. An all-time great. It's
Sebastian Vettel ā and this is his story." Anyways, I am just an anon who saw the edit
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Even though the page contains a template about its "excessive amount of intricate detail", each of Vettel's results in qualifying and races are added in his "F1 career" prose section. Is it not better to create a breakaway article in "Motor racing career of
Sebastian Vettel" (or something like that;
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English is most certainly my first language. By saying that he is the best on the current grid, it ranks him higher than the likes of LH and FA, two of the people who have been cited to be among the greats. There are more than two sources, like I said there are already ones that are implemented into
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The main problem is that you're not seeing that I've put forward countless sources that do display a wide consensus among respected drivers and journalists that he's among the greatest. For some reason, according to you, you need to see the specific words that it is widely accepted, which nowhere is
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Once again, you assume far too much and totally misinterpret plain text. (This is becoming a theme here). I never claimed you were. I merely pointed out the peculiarity that an inactive IP editor suddenly engages in discussion, and replies in tandem with yourself. It is totally correct to label your
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I don't see how the webber quote is irrelevant as its not about him against other drivers as you suggested, it's about who he believes is the best on the grid. I've presented sources from two other people, however along with the already sourced articles that are implemented into the Vettel page, it
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By 'countless' you mean three. One of which I have demonstrated to be irrelevant, and the other two present the opinions of two people. I never required you find the specific words. Once again, you are assuming and completely misrepresenting plain text (It's getting very tedious at this point). All
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The literal definition of 'some' says that at least a small amount of people believe so, however clearly more than a small amount of people regard him in this fashion. 'Often regarded' is probably more towards the real amount of people and sources that put him in this category. If you look at other
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Wow so now you're trying to claim that I'm being a 'sock puppet.' Goes to show how much you're trying to deface me. Again if I go back to the other articles that state the level of the driver, the sources don't claim that many people believe they're in that bracket. I'm not being incoherent at all
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I Don't think its very professional to use such wording when discussing an article. I've gone back and sourced the comments that I have put in my previous post, just so you can't say that I'm reaching my own conclusion. Nowhere did I state
Hamilton was on the same level as Vettel, you clearly seem
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There is no need to use language like that, and yes, it is relevant as we are talking about the same statement for different articles. It's not like were "discussing" two completely different matters, it's the same matter. The sources are on a very similar level. It seems like you're
Incapable of
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are fundamentally very different. Two of the articles don't just mention 'greatness' in passing, but are entirely dedicated to substantiating the claim that
Hamilton is amongst the greatest of all time. The main difference however, is that half of the articles cited don't just claim that Hamilton
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If you was to look at the sources for Alonso and
Hamilton, you will see that they're very particular with being a certain critics viewpoint, and don't strongly back the fact that it's a wildly held belief. I don't think you will get many sources that specifically use those words until the driver
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pundits have speculated whether the subject rank among the all-time greats, but even those who think he does acknowledge that "ntil he ... goes up against a rival of that quality in a comparable car, this debate will never go away". Perhaps in years to come, once he has retired, more debate will
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If you look at the sourced material for
Fernando Alonso, you see that its a few pundits voicing their own opinions like you believe the sourced material states. Aswell as this, some sources are about FA being the best on the grid at the current time, which have been removed for Vettel. The past
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I don't believe this is a compromise, as the sources here do not suggest Vettel actually is 'often regarded' as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. Only on a few occassions by half a dozen or so pundits or journalists, mostly around the time he won his fourth title, has the
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Formula One career of Sebastian Vettel would be better (like with Hamilton, if it was racing career then most of this would be gone) but the listing of every result is exactly the problem (this would still be a problem in an article dedicated to just his career). It needs serious stripping
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saying that they both have highly respected drivers putting forward their views for claiming 'greatness', not suggesting that they're as good as eatchother. I don't see how you can say that i'm 'Attacking' you, I'm just perplexed that you are still arguing against respected sources.
290:. If the source does not support the statement, it should not be there on either article. I'm not sure either how you reach the conclusion by comparing Hamilton and Vettel that they are held in 'the same regard', merely because both have been described as 'greats', it is a
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Oh heavens, don't take it so personally. It's a popular term for arguments to avoid on wikipedia. You are totally ignoring the points I'm making and responding with totally unsourced content which doesn't even match the sources I've explained exist for Hamilton. You are
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I am not a sock puppet. I just wanted to suggest alternatives, even if they have their own problems. Alain Prost's article says "is considered as one of the greatest F1 drivers ever" (without by many or by some), so I just thought it may be a suitable alternative here.
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this article that backs the claim. And however many times I have mentioned this, in LH and FA articles, nowhere do the sources say that its a view held by many. I seemingly have to repeat myself because you refuse to accept what's has been laid out in front of you.
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I don't think we are any closer to getting this matter resolved. There are at leat 9 different sources that have been provided that back the statement in the article, more can be provided but when does it get to the point where it becomes ridiculous. The reason for
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To add another opinion, I think since the official f1 website states Vettel as an all-time great (see link above), we can just say regarded as (without by many or by some). I also don't think opinions from rivals necessarily matters more than from other sources.
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shows that he is without doubt considered among the greatest. I don't if you need to see every quote by every person related to F1 to satisfy your needs, however I think it has been demonstrated that more than enough people believe that he is among the best.
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Additionally, there are comments regarding Hamilton's status in the sport from direct rivals, which are generally few and far between in comparison to journalistic descriptions of grandeur. To name only a couple of example: his lifetime rival and team-mate,
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None of the sources offer opinions from fellow or former drivers, much less explicitly state that it is a widely held belief, that the subject is one of the greatest drivers in the history of Formula One. Indeed, several of the sources repeatedly added by
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personally attacked by that. This isn't my POV and I have now provided a 'coherent argument' and will adjust sources in the article accordingly. You're constant hatred and inability to see what is right in front of your eyes is childish and pure unjust.
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I strongly disagree. This is not a solution to the problem. 'regarded as' or 'considered as' implies, similarly to 'regarded by many', that this is a widely held belief, which the sources do not demonstrate. Additionally, in any case, both lack
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retires. The sources used for Vettel are of a very similar nature to sources that back up the same quote for other people, which if its sufficient for 2 other articles which say roughly the same thing, it should be sufficient for this one too.
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that he his among the greats. This is the key distinction which you have continually failed to grasp. Furthermore, the discussion of his place among the greats is already settled and widely accepted to the point where debate has progressed to
497:(or have a 'profound effect' as you claim) that they are both held in equal esteem by the majority of people. Hamilton's article states that he is 'widely regarded' as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport because there are
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that support the change you want to be made. I realize this is evident from the table further down in the article, but if a published source hasn't called this fact out as noteworthy of mention, the Knowledge article shouldn't either.
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How about just 'regarded as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport' or maybe 'considered as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport', so we don't have to use 'some' or 'many'.
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some people hold that view, and that it is a view which is propagated to an extent. That, I believe, is what can be logically deduced from the available sources, and from a wider look at sources online.
826:. Nobody is making this personal other than yourself, making conjecture about my 'hatred and inability' when you haven't presented your argument in an even remotely coherent manner. Stop restorting to
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It is contrary to practice and convention to use the entrant name in the infobox and prose. We instead use the commonname (without the sponser). "Aston Martin Cognizant F1 Team" is the entrant name.
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153:)'s opinion and taken that to mean it is the view of 'many' people that the subject is one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport. This is clear example of the way in which this user
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were relevant, the sources demonstrate a clear difference in the extent to which both drivers are considered to be among the greats, and the statement/claim should accurately reflect that.
1389:)? In 20 years, when Vettel has retired, I can't imagine anyone interested in simply reading all of Vettel's results in a season without any major background stories. What do you think?
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Secondly, you have provided no sources which claim to title entire seasons as 'the Battle of two greats' as you have said. Even so, because two drivers are referred to as being 'great',
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is absolute pointless and irrelevant here, it is a comment about him against others on the grid, nothing to do with the 'greats'. Stop making useless arguments with unhelpful sources.
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does not support your claim, it is a comment about him against others on the grid and nothing to do with the greats. Nobody is denying that the other sources provide evidence that
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I've asked is whether or not you can demonstrate that it is a widely held belief of many people that he is considered among the greats; something which you have yet to do.
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and clearly pushing your own POV that you believe Hamilton and Vettel are both as good as each other. You haven't provided any coherent argument otherwise. It's tiresome.
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and ignoring any evidence that is counter to your point of view. (NB Could you please attempt to format your replies according to standard discussion guidelines).
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Once again, I find myself saying the same thing over again. That implies, similarly to 'regarded by many', that this is a widely held belief. Which in the case of
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ever. There is not a similar range of praise from rivals and fellow drivers and world champions regarding Vettel. Regardless, this comparison is not helpful.
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about two other drivers' status among the greats of the sport does not result in a reliable source demonstrating that Vettel is among the greatest. That is
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subject of 'greatest in history' been broached. Alonso, on the other hand, has throughout his career and particularly since his retirement at the end of
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At the end of the 2019-2020 section, please add that his podium at the 2020 Turkish Grand Prix was his first podium since the 2019 Mexican Grand Prix.
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and is vague/imprecise, and instead implies, similarly to 'regarded by many', that this is a widely held belief, which the sources do not demonstrate.
1071:, you began questioning my motive, saying 'you clearly seem personally attacked by that', which is both incorrect and not relevant to the discussion.
822:'Don't think it's professional'? Take that up with whoever coined the term, not me. You literally stated 'It's the same for Seb as it is for lewis
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isn't necessarily relevant or helpful in resolving this issue. However, regardless of whether it is appropriate or not, the sources cited at
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people hold the opinion that he is amongst the greats, nor have you found any from rivals of his, only retired drivers turned pundits. The
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cited which say so, not under the justification that he was once spoken about in the same sentence as another 'great'. Regardless,
756:"Those three (Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso) are on a very, very, high level. And if I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Sebastian"
885:, they also seem to exhibit the same trait of not listening to any previous points raised in the discussion. That phrasing lacks
1381:) or to just remove a lot of redundant information and simply list a few of his results along with some background details (see
760:"Whichever way you cut it, he has to be considered a great. There is no compelling argument to leave him off an all-time list."
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and personal comments. This is about the subject, not about you or I. You have not demonstrated that the sources reflect that
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On the relevant section, we could add that he convinced a mid east gp organiser to use sustainable jet fuel in its craft.
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do not even address the subject of 'greatest driver in history', and merely serve to compare the subject to drivers on the
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I've tried to reduce a lot of prose. It's still quite large but it's a good start. Please let me know what you think.
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https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/27015385/french-grand-prix-diary-vettel-shows-wedding-ring-hamilton-skips-media-day
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diminishes the significance of the statement in any way. If we look to the literal definition, it generally implies
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as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport' remains the most accurate reflection of the sources.
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as one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport'. This is clearly the editor pushing their
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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is due to the fact that you keep refusing to accept the facts in the sources.
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We should be focusing on articles, reports, discussions and publications from
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includes a source about him being the best on the grid at the current time,
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warring and would like to see it stop. However, I do think the wording
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https://www.formula1.com/en/drivers/hall-of-fame/Sebastian_Vettel.html
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among the greatest drivers in the history of the sport, but that it
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The user has again added another source which quotes an individual (
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change aston martin mercedes to Aston Martin Cognizant F1 Team
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Add reference to personal life section, sourcing marriage.
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Continuous edits by Mujioll regarding statement in lead
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has persisted in changing the statement 'regarded by
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arise and the subject will be widely considered, by
453:a few people. 'More than a small amount of people'
1007:people regard him as among the greats of the sport
993:Why is it so difficult for you to understand? The
1421:F1 driver article (only football-related stuff).
1550:Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2021
1455:Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2020
783:reaching a conclusion not stated by the sources
505:arguments are pointless and not revelant here.
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564:I think 'Regarded as' is completely viable.
225:To me this looks like a debate of when does
1289:Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2019
1001:people consider him among the greats, but
762:It's the same for Seb as it is for lewis.
449:: As we have both now said, 'some' means
713:while Fernando Alonso said Hamilton was
1592:2409:4073:4E84:FE12:6488:1C58:6680:E61D
752:"Vettel is probably the best we've had"
288:does not mean this article should also
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1118:seen in other articles for examples.
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1052:is saying i'm attacking you.
1003:they do not demonstrate that
711:'one of the best of all time'
686:. To put it simply, even if
680:whether Hamilton is in fact
1651:If we have a source, sure.
1584:to reactivate your request.
1572:has been answered. Set the
1489:to reactivate your request.
1477:has been answered. Set the
1445:15:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
1323:to reactivate your request.
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383:I also do not believe that
172:How about a comprise, like
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1048:but by saying i'm using
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445:Firstly, your argument
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18:Talk:Sebastian Vettel
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682:the greatest
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503:'other crap'
460:some people.
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37:
1067:comment as
920:Alain Prost
887:attribution
684:of all time
581:attribution
36:This is an
1574:|answered=
1479:|answered=
1313:|answered=
1069:ad hominem
1050:Ad hominem
828:ad hominem
662:Other crap
1516:Not done:
1437:WA8MTWAYC
1423:WA8MTWAYC
1391:WA8MTWAYC
79:The user
66:ArchiveĀ 2
60:ArchiveĀ 1
1612:Not done
458:at least
451:at least
389:at least
99:through
1267:Mujioll
1206:Mujioll
1168:Mujioll
1120:Mujioll
1054:Mujioll
961:Mujioll
810:Mujioll
764:Mujioll
632:Mujioll
566:Mujioll
433:Mujioll
270:Mujioll
229:become
113:Mujioll
81:Mujioll
39:archive
824:(sic)'
235:WP:POV
1578:|ans=
1564:This
1538:Meep?
1483:|ans=
1469:This
1405:back.
1317:|ans=
1303:This
239:WP:OR
16:<
1657:talk
1653:SSSB
1642:talk
1622:talk
1618:SSSB
1596:talk
1501:talk
1441:talk
1427:talk
1412:talk
1408:SSSB
1395:talk
1377:see
1362:talk
1358:SSSB
1354:Done
1338:talk
1271:talk
1236:talk
1210:talk
1187:talk
1172:talk
1156:talk
1124:talk
1077:talk
1058:talk
1015:talk
1005:many
999:some
965:talk
928:talk
910:talk
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873:talk
844:talk
832:many
814:talk
791:talk
768:talk
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696:talk
636:talk
589:talk
570:talk
528:talk
511:talk
437:talk
398:talk
385:some
375:talk
337:talk
329:some
300:talk
274:talk
247:talk
243:SSSB
237:nor
231:many
227:some
209:talk
201:2018
186:talk
163:talk
141:talk
133:some
129:many
124:some
93:many
85:some
1576:or
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1481:or
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1315:or
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107:.
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50:.
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