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1720:"We have no idea whether any of this is even accurate" - really?? You can see him tell the tale in more than one youtube video and read it recounted in a dozen different sources. I know Ben and I heard him tell the tale himself. And still you have "no idea" if it is true. Your protestations are preposterous. It is clear from your behavior on this page that your goal is to allow so little content that you can mount a further AfD attack.
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1648:. Second, this doesn't say what you keep trying to edit-war into the article text, namely, that Dyson had an epiphany whilst reading this book and directly went out and founded the Positive Money group. In fact it falsifies that claim, because it states that this book led the lad to a several-years long interest
1626:"It started when I was studying development and economics at the School of Oriental and African Studies, of the university of London. I was obsessed by inflation because I could not understand why prices were rising so quickly. One day I was at the library, and I found a book called 'Grip of Death'..."
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which was rejected with nobody else voting for delete and with one uninterested editor noting that SPECIFICO was "straining too hard to minimise these reliable sources". Given that
Knowledge's opinion is to keep this article - would SPECIFICO like to suggest what he/she *would* allow to be said about
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Yeah, well that gets to the crux of the larger problem that you keep denying like the nose on your face. You appear to have a COI. You are a single purpose account. You are promoting nonsense fringe greenie deflationist amateur gobbledygook replete with bogus "theorizing" and misrepresentation of all
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where does he tell us that reading a single book motivated his founding
Positive Money? That's quite an extraordinary claim, that this person in his extensive research (as described) would be motivated to act by a single book he read. In fact, if we look at Dyson's own words he says no such thing --
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The references are a mixture of opinion pieces, primary sources, non-mainstream reports and advocacy, and incidental mentions due to the Swiss referendum. This WP page was largely edited by a now-banned sockpuppet account, "Adele Fisher". What would be needed are mainstream reports or assessments of
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You are citing a French paywalled group advocacy blog. It states that this Ben Dyson was minding his own business, read some book By
Rowbotham, and then went out and founded this Positive Money group, an advocacy group where he and editor Reissgo were apparently authors or colleagues. If we look at
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If there is significant article content, it should be easy to demonstrate its significance with secondary RS references. The narratative of Dyson's epiphany or his reading habits, without an explicit and essential connection to the subject of this article, is not encyclopedic. We could just as well
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Hi I appreciate your willingness to work on this, but I think the draft has exactly the same problem -- primary and affiliated, dated, and narrow sourcing. This is typical for a subject that has marginal or defective notability and I'm afraid that any further efforts on your part would be in vain.
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Positive Money was born. So it's like saying that Prince
Charles and Lady Di heard a Petula Clark love song one day at Clarence House and it caused the birth of Prince Harry several years hence. Furthermore, this article is not Mr. Dyson's biography (where such detail might conceivably be relevant
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Contrary to
Reissgo's recent edit summary, the defect in the book-reading epiphany content has been stated here on talk as it was also stated to the now-banned collaborator sockpuppet account Adele. The onus is on editors who wish to include this and they can start by responding to the reasons I've
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The notability tag is to attract editors to improve the article. If you have secondary independent RS references that have more than an incidental discussion of this organization, then please reveal them and add the associated content. It's very clear that the criterion for removing the tag has not
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This article has virtually no references that are RS for the content. At any rate, it's not proper to simply deny the concern and then remove article improvement tags. The tag should be restored until any editor who wishes to remove it can show that no further RS citations are needed. The article
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This article contains SYNTH and OR and other promotional tilts that violate NPOV. These have been discussed on talk and are addressed in numerous edit summaries, but editors continue to reinstate bad content in the article without addressing these key defects on talk or with better-sourced neutral
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Blogs are not RS for nothing. Period. You need to read and understand WP policy. We have no idea whether any of this is even accurate, aside from all the other disqualifying factors. Please set aside the fan admiration and address WP editing protocols. Also, what's your personal relationship with
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With regard the fact that the source is a blog - this is not an issue because the claim is not contentious. If the wiki page on BMW wanted to state that BMWs are the most efficient cars in the world then that would need a top top quality secondary source, but if the page wanted to sate that their
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So yes, this is an edit war to pry a misrepresentation of Dyson's personal views and history into this article. Dyson hiself makes clear that
Positive Money was founded at least 4 years after he stumbled on the Rowbotham book. The edit-warred content is based on a weak source while stronger ones
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sources, opinion pieces, blogs, content that is related to the subject only by your own deductions or connections that you see but are not explicit in the sources, and so forth. You need to read the
Knowledge Policies and Guidelines and edit only when you are confident you understand them. It's
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highly unusual for a new account to go diving in as you are with almost all your work here tending to promote this organization and its fringe POV's. If you don't work within site norms, you will sooner or later be blocked. To avoid this, please study the
Policies and Guidelines.
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sorts of sources and documents. This edit needs to be removed. You are not even making an effort to research and write whatever policy-compliant article content might be scraped out of the RS mentions the group has managed to eke out in years of self-promotion and protest.
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The article has been nominated for deletion which resulted to a unanimous. Therefore, I've removed the notability tag as this would appear to be no longer relevent and the purpose of these tages are for addressing concerns rather than remaining on articles indefinitely.
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2 SYNTH that attempts to associate the "authority" of what appears to be a self-published fringe treatise from a defunct publisher/distributor with the
Positive Money organization. The statement provides no detail as to any actual connection other than the classical
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Hello. We have a Single
Purpose Account that came here and to other articles relating to this organization on its first day and appears to be putting unsourced or irrelevant content on various articles. Seems to have quieted down now. Thanks for volunteering at 3-O.
1012:. You did a good service adding such references to the beginning of the article, but it's important to put the rest of the article in context by adding similar independent discussion of the organizations activities. There are help references available at this link
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SPECIFICO is rather overstating things. You most definitely can use primary sources in some circumstances. For example basic uncontroversial information. So I too would encourage you to read the wikipedia policies, if only to see how wrong SPECIFICO is!
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been met. The notability tag is not the same thing as an AfD. Please do not edit war this tag in cahoots with the single purpose accounts and sockpuppets and please restore the tag and bring us some good substantial content to craft an article. Thanks.
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With regard the second point, Ben Dyson was not merely "affiliated" with PM, he actually founded it. Your argument about the time delay does not hold water. If any other editor supports this particular point I will address it in more detail.
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The page only contains four sentences the first three of which are plain fact. The only one that could be considered an opinion comes from a famous German national newspaper. I suggest you address your suggested edits one issue at a time.
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The Grip of Death story could scarcely be more relevant. It was the reason the organisation got started in the first place. No grip of death, no Positive Money. The story has been repeated very widely. Nobody doubts its veracity.
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The story of how something got started is encyclopaedic. The Velcro article contains the story of the walk in the woods with the dog and the page on Newton contains the story of the Apple tree. This is no different.
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I've removed all the unsourced content and I feel that this article now requires the Notability tag. Do not remove this or you may be blocked from editing. Please read the policy concerning tags and their removal.
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While this may be very exciting to members of the organisation and their friends and family, there is no indication that this is encyclopedic content or that it is any more significant than the thousands of
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SPECIFICO, would you explain the addition of the flags? Having trouble understanding how a page with 23 secondary sources would not be notable. There are many other pages with fewer secondary sources.
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My understanding of how notability works is that if an article hasn't yet added citations, a notability flag would be added. Then, when there are at least a handful of secondary sources it's removed.
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to the growth of his consciousness) but is an article about an organization with which he was (formerly?) affiliated. So for at least these 3 reasons, you should now remove it. It's bad. Thanks.
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Some of the prior conversation looks like it's no longer applicable and has been addressed. As far as I can tell, notability issues have been resolved. If there are any concerns, please explain.
1177:, it does not itself establish the notability of that organisation. Notable organisations get talked about, referred to in newspaper articles and so on, those are the kinds of references needed.
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Thanks for the response SPECIFICO. I find it interesting you wouldn't consider BBC News, Business Insider, and Wall Street Journal mainstream. Would like to hear what you'd consider mainstream.
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recount that Margaret Thatcher got food poisoning one winter's night in 1976, descended into a week's delirium, and awoke knowing that Joan of Arc had visited her to insist she run for PM.
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That is not the purpose of a notability tag, once it's been proven to be notable is no longer applies. An AfD has proven that the subject has received significant coverage from numerous
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If you see so much issues on this page, why don't you fix it yourself instead of deleting content and then just talking about it? Showing how to imporve things would help new users.
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2. Positive Money was founded by Ben Dyson in 2010, after reading the book The Grip of Death: A Study of Modern Money, Debt Slavery, and Destructive Economics by Michael Rowbotham.
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The truth of the story is not disputed by anyone, not even you. So the remaining question is - is it significant? Well that's a matter of opinion. You say no, I (and presumably
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who get this kind of day in the sun at Parliament. This content should be removed unless an independent secondary RS publication can be found to demonstrate its significance.
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Just to help ensure maximum clarity, here are the entire four sentences of the article. I am curious to know which particular ones are not expressing a neutral point of view.
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Hello. Thank you for your message. What do you mean by 'secondary independent RS citations'? Is the official website of an organisation not a reference on its own members?
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Reissgo, your reply is confirmation that you have absolutely no substantive justification for the collation of drivel that is currently this article. LK gave you a
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3 Similarly attempts to associate the organization and/or is fringe theories with the House of Parliament via a mooted election campaign years in the future.
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head office was in Dusseldorf (or wherever) then a far lower quality source would suffice. The wiki pages on sourcing encourage editors to use common sense.
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Right. So you have two problems now. First, that source is a self-published blogger-advocate who claims to be representing something Dyson told him. Not
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3. Its Executive Director is Fran Boait, the prospective parliamentary candidate of the Labour Party for Gloucester in the 2022 general election.
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Your last post is essentially just a rant and a personal attack. If you want to get your edit approved then please seek a third opinion.
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to try to rescue this mess by asking me to repeat my indictment of the current content and sourcing. But you didn't even take the shot.
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1 is bad too, in that it accepts the organization's self-description of its agenda as "reforms", but that one is not worth discussing.
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is to establish that the article content is noteworthy and significant information for an encyclopedia. Please also see the link at
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In 2014, Positive Money initiated the International Movement for Monetary Reform to reunite similar organisations around the world:
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The content being originally added (or not) by an COI or SPA has no relevance on whether the content should be included (or not).
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I've drafted a rewrite of the article. I believe this should be a decent base for a notable article. Let me know what you think.
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this organisation? At the moment it appears you wish to delete the article indirectly by simply not allowing a single sentence!
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Everybody knows what Velcro is. The point is it's entirely irrelevant and ridiculous to introduce Velcro into this discussion.
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Thank you for these informations. Specifico, could you tell me here which content that I wrote in this article was 'unsourced'?
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that is not directly and explicitly supported by published reliable sources. I've removed your reinsertion of invalid content.
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1. Positive Money is a not-for-profit organisation based in London and Brussels that campaigns for various monetary reforms.
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Do not reinsert without secondary independent RS citations to establish due weight and noteworthiness of this material.
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Just to clarify about the POV tag, I do not oppose removing it, but we should follow proper procedure as outlined in
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is an interview with Ben Dyson. He is asked "What is the story behind Positive Money?" To which he begins his reply:
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SPECIFICO has expended enormous effort to minimise this page, deleting text wherever possible and instigating an
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1815:. SPECIFICO, do you have objections to removing the tag? If so, what issue do you think needs to be addressed?
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4 Fails verification - neither of the cited sources makes any statement that supports the article content.
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This is clearly relevent content about the orgin of how the organisation was founded. I see absolutely no
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I don't know why you added the comedy sheep link. I don't remember that being discussed in parliament.
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I'm talking about Velcro the company, not the fastener. The analogy is a good fit: (1) Epiphany -: -->
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just to add to what has been said about notability, although something like an organisation's website
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Thank you for these explanations. How can you decide that something is invalid when a source is given?
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I don't have the time for this right now - the famed SPCIFICO "chilling effect" has worked. You win.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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For your information, on 23 February 2018, Specifico nominated this article for a discussion on:
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1460:) say yes. The opinion of a now-banned editor one way or the other has no bearing on the matter.
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4. Among its proposals, Positive Money is most recognised for its "sovereign money" policies.
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as it stands today is basically fringe promotion, and may be deleted if it's not improved.
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company got started after a walk in the woods with a dog... and wikipedia tells the story.
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You should not reinsert content that's been challenged by removal. On WP we don't publish
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For the record you can see Ben Dyson himself tell the story 40 seconds into this video:
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fallacy. This is not encyclopedic information, or exposition. It's UNDUE and SYNTH.
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The organization simply is not considered notable according to our standards here.
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At least there are sources for most of that text, but a lot of it is trivia and
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SPECIFICO, if you think the draft is a good base for notability, I'll submit it.
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Here's a draft from just those 3, with the WSJ covering the whole first part.
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https://stanislasjourdan.fr/en/2012/02/05/interview-ben-dyson-positive-money/
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directly associated with Dyson fail to confirm or outright contradict it.
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I've already told you and pointed it out in edit summaries. You can't use
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Unknown-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
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Strip it down to those sources and lets take a look.
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And please answer the question on your talk page too
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Knowledge:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom
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Start-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
1563:(2) chain of thoughts over a period of years -: -->
1401:Please see the comment I left the new editor above
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Template:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom
493:This article has not yet received a rating on the
395:This article has not yet received a rating on the
313:This article has not yet received a rating on the
1281:without notifying interested projects and editors
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2068:https://en.wikipedia.org/User:Flurrious/sandbox
973:Objets de la votation populaire du 10 juin 2018
1275:Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Positive Money
1435:given repeatedly here and in edit summaries.
1067:Please slow down and please see these pages:
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1590:Mr. Dyson's various bios on the web, e.g.
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1015:. Thanks for your contributions.
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734:Finland: Economic Democracy (
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550:00:57, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
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467:and see a list of open tasks.
448:Business and economics portal
369:and see a list of open tasks.
287:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
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2173:and take things from there.
1283:, I post this message here.
811:New Zealand: Positive Money
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
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2050:this group and their work.
1492:arguments for its removal.
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909:Sovereign Money initiative
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1125:Hi, someone requested a
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784:Ireland: Sensible Money
612:of being a sockpuppet?
608:Sorry are you accusing
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225:This article is rated
75:avoid personal attacks
713:Australia: Fair Money
456:WikiProject Economics
381:organization articles
100:Neutral point of view
923:The named reference
763:India: Money Reforms
665:Removed text follows
657:History and movement
105:No original research
1033:"original research"
636:Not RS. Please see
2028:—== Notability ==
838:: Sovereign Money
795:Pieniądz Pozytywny
789:Moneta Bene Comune
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683:: Sovereign Money
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946:Monnaie honnête
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831:Positiva Pengar
822:Dinero Positivo
746:Monnaie honnête
724:Budućnost Novca
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19:This is the
2165:or failing
1944:Afd request
1650:after which
970:(in French)
943:(in French)
894:(in French)
850:, Italian:
836:Switzerland
753:FEKyou.info
695:, Italian:
681:Switzerland
589:independent
227:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
2204:Categories
1963:free throw
1523:Velcro???
1269:Notability
1209:WP:PRIMARY
882:References
856:initiative
846:, French:
840:initiative
814:Slovakia:
799:Portugal:
759:Monetative
730:Gode Penge
718:Чисти пари
716:Bulgaria:
691:, French:
685:initiative
2176:SPECIFICO
2149:Flurrious
2131:SPECIFICO
2116:Flurrious
2101:SPECIFICO
2085:Flurrious
2071:Flurrious
2053:SPECIFICO
2036:Flurrious
2016:Flurrious
1968:SPECIFICO
1926:SPECIFICO
1840:SPECIFICO
1778:SPECIFICO
1739:SPECIFICO
1700:SPECIFICO
1656:SPECIFICO
1603:SPECIFICO
1549:SPECIFICO
1539:Yes. The
1526:SPECIFICO
1503:Tanbircdq
1456:Tanbircdq
1438:SPECIFICO
1407:SPECIFICO
1356:SPECIFICO
1317:SPECIFICO
1215:SPECIFICO
1148:SPECIFICO
1074:SPECIFICO
1038:SPECIFICO
1018:SPECIFICO
1010:WP:WEIGHT
929:help page
868:SPECIFICO
842:(German:
801:Boa Moeda
772:Iceland:
757:Germany:
728:Denmark:
722:Croatia:
687:(German:
642:SPECIFICO
614:Tanbircdq
574:SPECIFICO
558:Tanbircdq
540:SPECIFICO
521:SPECIFICO
470:Economics
461:Economics
420:Economics
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2163:WP:UNDUE
1813:WP:WTRMT
1490:WP:SYNTH
1486:WP:UNDUE
844:Vollgeld
829:Sweden:
793:Poland:
780:Ons Geld
766:Israel:
751:Greece:
689:Vollgeld
197:deletion
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2167:WP:NPOV
1995:Reissgo
1949:Reissgo
1795:Reissgo
1754:Reissgo
1722:Reissgo
1697:Dyson?
1684:Reissgo
1628:Reissgo
1566:Reissgo
1468:Reissgo
1389:Reissgo
1372:Reissgo
1333:Reissgo
1247:Reissgo
820:Spain:
787:Italy:
610:Reissgo
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1541:velcro
1350:FrankP
1179:FrankP
1131:FrankP
742:France
671:France
233:scale.
126:Google
1646:WP:RS
1617:Here
1173:be a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2181:talk
2153:talk
2136:talk
2120:talk
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1023:talk
995:talk
925:IMMR
873:talk
648:talk
618:talk
579:talk
562:talk
546:talk
527:talk
205:keep
203:was
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1770:POV
1488:or
1171:can
512:Tag
489:???
391:???
309:???
176:TWL
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58:.
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