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more influential: the Levant or the SE civilizations?, or were these just different facies of a unique ethnicity?, or were actually
Iberians not a single ethnicity but several? We just can't say on light of the available evidence. There are other questions like how and when Iberians "reconquered" Catalonia to the Celts, etc.
1967:
As not promised in the previous section (look above), I have started to revamp the article. I've begun with
Neolithic and Chalcolithic (take a look and make constructive criticisms, please) but it's yet a first version. I know I have to add references and maybe polish some corners... it won't be done
1942:. Everybody (?) knows that the Celts or proto-Celts probably entered Iberia (NE) c. 1300 BCE with the Urnfields migrations and, yes, they did have a second expansion c. 700 BCE with the Hallstatt culture, with an intermediate phase (Iron Age Urnfields) of expansion along the Ebro river (exclussively).
2156:
There was an absurd sentance that said "In this period it's noticeable the increase of bovine cattle accompanied by some decrease of ovine and caprine types". I've changed these to cattle, sheep and goat, although the sentance still looks bad gramatically, and I'm not quite sure what it is actually
1867:
The
Iberians arrived on the peninsula sometime in the third millennium BC Most scholars believe the Iberians came from somewhere farther east in the Mediterranean, although some have suggested that they originated in North Africa. The Iberians settled along the eastern coast of Iberia. The Iberians
1836:
I usually upload all maps to em.Knowledge, the reasons are veried: (1) I only work in this language
Knowledge, not in the Spanish one, for instance, where I would be smashed quickly by furious masses of readers of "El Mundo" and "La RazĂłn", (2) often my maps have text in English, like in this case,
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should be regarded as myth. Even if the
Phoenicians did maintain comercial activities with the rest of the modern Portuguese territory (other than the Algarve), and that is why one can find Phoenician pottery and such. At best Lisbon was an ancient autocthonous settlement (what the Romans called an
1904:
I strongly suggest rewriting this paragraph according with available evidence or just supress it, focusing in the facts: archaeologically defined cultures. We can only begin to speak of
Iberians (and Tartessians, a different but connected issue) properly when the Iberian script appears in the Iron
1736:
Neither of the maps are good, I grant you that...! You have stated the problems with the ones I presented (they are not my doing, mind you), and I globally agree. The one you present also has many problems (for instance, it enhaces the
Tartessian linguitic zone, wich is very doubtfull, since it is
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as Celtic is beyond what historical and archeological evidence allows (a single unlocated "-briga" toponym, Flaviobriga, is not enough, specially considering that Caesar attests that the
Cantabri were "relatives" of the Aquitani, a Basque-speaking population than himsef describes as "Iberian" - as
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culture, that stretched quite precisely by the area their occupied in pre-Roman times. Of course, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age developements, including Los
Millares - El Argar civilization but also the Bronze of Levant, surely shaped their evolution in terms that are difficult to discern: what was
774:
the same in all regions, and should be sublisted separately in each region: intermunicipal entities are sometimes larger and split by subregions (e.g. the
Metropolitan Area of Lisbon has two subregions), some intercommunal entities are containing only parts of subregions. All subregions should be
1583:
Archeological findings show that a Phoenician trading post existed in the place that, since 1200 B.C., has occupied the centre of the city. The magnificent natural harbour provided by the estuary of the river Tagus made it the ideal spot for a settlement to provide foodstuffs to Phoenician ships
1778:
For Jordá et al, all southern Portugal used Tartessian script and language. The only dubious area would be that the Lower Tago, where evidence is scant and tomonimy ambiguous: 3 Tartessian toponyms (2 in -ippo and one in -ucci/-urgi) and 3 Celtic ones (all in -briga). I can make an improved map
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which only describes the "replacement of 40% of Iberia’s ancestry and nearly 100% of its Y-chromosomes by people with Steppe ancestry". The 100% figure sounds dramatic but it should still be understood as a demographic change that took place over a long period of time (hundreds of thousands of
1771:
I grant you that, in what regards the Iberian peninsula, the map I posted is quite good. Can't judge the paricular case of Cynetes but it's quite clear that the other maps are too "ambitious" in their level of detail (not justifiable by our level of knowldege) and lack of a scholarly
1881:(eventually Hellenized in its phase B, yes, but Iberians didn't speak Greek in any case) can't probably be considered the oly source of Iberians, at least the Bronze of Levante and other cultures (for the case of Tartessians or Western Iberians) should be considered as well.
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The section "Portuguese Iron Age" is written in an anachronistic tone. Portugal did yet not exist in this period of history. The article should reference the names of cultures of this time, not of political entities which would only come into existence millennia afterwards.
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This unsourced comment is surely false but in any case quite questionable. AFAIK, there's no single archaeological evidence for a 3th milennium arrival of new peoples to the peninsula, unless the author is considering the quite old fashioned theories about
1797:. I think it's very objective and lacks the "arrogance" of other maps. Hence, with your implicit permission, I'm going to add it to the article instead of the that is right now, that has many lackings, except the "arrogance" of excessive interpretation. --
2044:
Yes. The initial named footnote with all the details is the only one that still stands. It was the repeated references which made a vast fraction of the article to be displaced as footnote. Surely I'm doing something wrong and I will see to fix it later.
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It's so big that I would like some better informed people confirm it before we add it in there. Also, Team Yamna article don't talk at all about the Iberic peninsula, so I wonder if it's not a naming mistake mixing up 2 cultures.
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issue, there's no other material evidence of any outlier arrival. Even as late as the Bronze Age the remains of products imported from the Eastern Mediterranean are extremely scarce, being plainly non-existent before.
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anyhow, with more detail of the actual data and less assumptions. The important thing is to have a good unbiased map and, please, one that does not describe Astures, Cantabri and Western Basque tribes as Celtic. --
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statistic subdivisions but real administrative entities, so they should be listed below, probably using a smaller font: we can safely eliminate the subgrouping by type of intermunicipal entity from this
1775:
The "Arqueotavira" site map falls also in the same errors: too "ambitious" and too "Celticist" (i.e. intepreting any blank, doubt or whatever as Celtic by default). Still, in my judgement it's better.
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1708:, that links to a geocities page as source, probably that of the author). One problem is evident in both maps I oppose: that they claim the Basque area as "Celtic", against all evidence (see
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opposed to Celtic). I believe that my map is much more accurate, even if less ambitious, than any of the other two, and has the advantage of being academically sourced (no self-research). --
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1819:. Instead of uploading your maps and images to wikipedia, you should do it in the commons, where they can be available to all wikipedia projects (including all languages). Cheers!
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Easy to say, hard to do. In fact probably all the article needs an in-depth review. There are too many inaccuracies, blatant flasehoods and arbitrary claims. Just an example:
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Thanks Ogre. It's less "easy" for the reader with little knowledge (than for instance my other version) but it's what the facts are, independent of each one's interepretation.
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2011:, I got half of the page displaced to the footnotes section. I have no idea why this can be. By the moment I have deleted the footnotes but this is not a good solution. --
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with its own problems that we need to be careful about. I would not mention it at all in this article, until the findings are digested by reliable secondary sources. –
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refering to. Is it talking about numbers of breeds or species, or the number of animals? (Based on the previous sentance, and the fact that "bovine cattle" linked to
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tombs are older by more than 1,000 years in Iberia than in Greece, and older precursors in Cyprus and Syria were not used as tombs. Apart of the much questionable
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being an Oriental (Cypriot) colony, for which there's no meaningful evidence and has now fallen out of favor clearly. In any case, Los Millares and its successor
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it could even be refering to their use as draft animals, but as I've never heard of anyone using sheep to pull a plough, that can probably be discounted).
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The airport is not listed as JoĂŁo Paulo II anywhere. The airport's own website calls itself simply Ponta Delgada, and has no mention of JoĂŁo Paulo.
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should have its own separate article, it is already too long and there is much content that can be further expanded. I've copied its contents to
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1815:! I see what you mean by not being too ambitious. This is a good compromise. By the way, I've tagged your new map in order to move it to the
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and hence are not really idoneous for Commons. Rather "language mute" version should be made instead (but I'm not the one doing it, DIY). --
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Lower and Middle Paleolithic: too generic maybe but not substantially erroneous, I think (this part I'm not going to touch in any case). --
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1647:"Greek colonization: (...) There is no evidence to support the myth of an ancient Greek founding of Olissipo (modern Lisbon) by Odysseus."
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travelling to the tin islands (modern Isles of Scilly) and Cornwall. The new city was named Alis Ubbo or "safe harbor" in Phoenician.
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Age, showing an area of certain homogeneoity (if they didn't speak the same language, at least they used the same syllabary). --
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As I see it with the available archaeological evidence (that is not scarce), Iberians likely evolved locally from the Neolithic
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I think that Upper Paleolithic, Epipaleolithic, Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age sections are now more or less correct.
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The myth of a Phoenician foundation of the city as far back as 1300 BC, under the name Alis Ubbo ("Safe Harbour") is unreal.
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years), not a single group arriving and "killing all males". The paper doesn't mention technology, horses, warfare, or the
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Recent research of the National Genographic Project has shown that Phoenician genes are well documented in Portuguese DNA.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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and related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
2188:, since the actual species may be unknown or different from modern forms. At any rate, it's not good English grammar.
1114:-speaking countries on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on this and the draft's talk page so that the original copy operation is properly documented. I've also summarized
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conquered the peninsula using new technologies and horses while killing all local males according to DNA studies."
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1634:) that maintained comercial relations with the Phoenicians. I'll correct the article on Lisbon. Thank you.
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In any case, there's no clear evidence for any outer invasion/migration in relation with these Iberians:
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The Celts of Europe entered Iberia through two separate migrations in the ninth and seventh centuries BC
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then replaced it by the one standing now that may look pretty nice but seems totally self-research (see
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I'm not an expert on such technicalities, but... have you indicated the end of the footnote with
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There is no evidence of a Greek settlement because the Odyssey myth has a Phoenician origin.
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listed explicitly and not assume they are only intermunicipal entities (which accessorily are
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even spoke tartessian, although they seem to have a form of writing akin to tartessian - the
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I'm having a technical problem with footnotes: when I added (every 2-3 paragraphs)
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770:: statistical (NUTS3) subregions and intercommunal entities are confused; they are
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because it either lacked citations or extremely relied on just one. I have placed
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article is just sloppy journalism, unfortunately all too common with prehistory.
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1613:) there were no Phoenician colonies, settlements or trading post in
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2299:"The invasion that wiped out every man from Spain 4,500 years ago"
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1745:; furthermore the Cynetes or Conii were eventually absoved by the
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In paleontology, there are valid reasons for describing bones as
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Detailed map of the Pre-Roman Peoples of Iberia (around 200
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According to the reputed Portuguese historian José Mattoso (
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HistĂłria de Portugal. Primeiro Volume: Antes de Portugal
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Next will be Bronze Age, that can be improved a lot. --
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I'll see what can I do but I don't promise anything. --
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The following was moved from "Talk:Pre-Roman Portugal".
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I've been updating this page for the past few days.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
2212:"Around 2500 BC, the nomadic shepherds known as the
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lived in isolated communities structured as tribes.
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1988:Upper Paleolithic almost totally revamped too. --
527:Template:WikiProject British Overseas Territories
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46:for general discussion of the article's subject.
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1712:, for instance). Equally claiming the lands of
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2338:A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
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1672:There is no such thing as Phoenician genes.
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2403:. I've submitted the draft for review.
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1749:...). The only good one I know is this
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2329:The following discussion is closed.
2059:Hmmm... now it does perfectly. :/ --
1757:. Unfortunatly it is copyrigthed...
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2238:16:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
1666:22:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
1617:, other than the one in
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806:Help assessing articles.
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1985:Bronze Age revamped.
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1370:Archaeology
812:Need images
731:Os LusĂadas
161:free images
44:not a forum
2429:Categories
2308:2020-05-11
2285:References
1811:Great map
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2405:Irecorsan
2077:Advancing
1522:Archive 2
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1478:this edit
1318:Gibraltar
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1263:Gibraltar
101:if needed
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1759:The Ogre
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1702:The Ogre
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1615:Portugal
1605:(dir.),
1578:states:
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626:Portugal
617:Portugal
573:Portugal
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
2303:EL PAĂŤS
2261:Science
2254:El Pais
2190:Kortoso
2117:FilipeS
1772:source.
1747:Celtici
1739:Cynetes
1714:Astures
1674:FilipeS
1632:Oppidum
1619:Algarve
1590:Olavius
1482:history
1434:on the
1345:on the
1148:on the
1112:Catalan
1059:on the
1032:Galicia
1023:Galicia
995:Galicia
970:on the
745:More...
724:Improve
680:history
653:on the
548:on the
443:on the
354:on the
245:C-class
167:WPÂ refs
155:scholar
2394:copied
2233:(talk)
2186:caprid
2163:Wardog
2096:Sugaar
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2013:Sugaar
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1973:Sugaar
1947:Sugaar
1907:Sugaar
1898:tholoi
1894:tholos
1839:Sugaar
1813:Sugaar
1799:Sugaar
1781:Sugaar
1723:Sugaar
1627:Lisbon
1623:Tavira
1576:Lisbon
1215:Basque
1173:Basque
834:Wikify
800:Assess
752:Review
718:Lisbon
251:scale.
139:Google
2214:Yamna
2182:ovine
2178:bovid
1476:with
943:Spain
934:Spain
890:Spain
844:Vote:
780:box).
690:purge
685:watch
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
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1716:and
1678:talk
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1600:vide
1426:High
1337:High
792:See
675:edit
175:FENS
149:news
86:and
2269:Joe
2228:Yug
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2184:or
1466:of
1234:???
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540:Mid
435:Mid
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189:TWL
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