646:. Since its first formulation in the late 17th century it has been gradually expanded, a process that continues to this day. As people become better at telling “is” apart from “ought to be” they become more tolerant towards their children’s natural tendencies and limited mental capabilities. The decline in arranged marriage and the increased use of contraceptives to plan parenthood also contributed. At the same time parents where gradually freed from the social pressure to break their children – yes, I really mean “break” since they where treated no better than dogs – and taken seemingly rational decisions over their heads. This allowed the parents to show what warm emotions they had for their children in ways which the children had a fair chance to understand such as soft speech and soft touch. Through positive feedback this process accelerated leading to each generation being treated better as children than the previous one. Psychoanalytics may well have extrapolated these relatively recent trend millennia into the past without having any empirical basis for such long trends. However,
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parenting” are very strange to me. First, we have the expression “trying to stop children's growth” which is quite incomprehensible to me. A child who survives to the age of 20 inevitably grows up but this process may be more or less disturbed leading to acquired mental problems. The other strange expression is “controlled their minds, their insides, their anger and the lives they led”. To me it seems like the author thought that parents could shape their children to become anything they wanted! Naturally, parents can do little about their children's physical appearance and health. In a similar way adults can't determine children's physical needs or abilities. Unfortunately, this has not stopped people ignorant of individual differences in capacity and self-perceived bodily functions from trying. I also want to point out that 40 – 50 percent of a child's personality is genetically determined and thus unchangeable. Furthermore, children are more or less psychologically affected by everything they experience. (This is why
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sexually liberated than other peoples of the times. The Romans also allowed women more personal freedom than other contemporary civilisations except possibly Egypt. But the Greeks and Romans typically abandoned unwanted children. However, they tried to assure the survival of their wanted ones. If less successful parents did their best to imitate more successful ones this would have lead to gradually better parenting. I don't know how the Greeks treated their children but there is historical evidence that the Romans treated their wanted children quite well. The early
Christian church condemned the abandonment of children. This may have lead to attempts to apply this rather good parenting to all children at least in southern Europe. But since there where now many more unwanted children the introduction of Christianity may as well have been a decrease in the quality of parenting, I really don't know.
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that way of treatment. Maybe our minds would even need it in order to develop properly. The opposite is also true, if we have an universal human mental trait which requires a certain treatment during upbringing this means that among our pre-agricultural ancestors this treatment was the norm. For example, a child who does not feel loved during its first three years of its life will be unable to form close relationships as adult. Yet close relationships – erotic relations and close friendship – exist in all known human societies. Why evolve a capability which can only properly develop under uncommon circumstances? This shows that hunter-gatherer parents typically where able to show non-sexual love for their infants and toddlers in ways they could understand. Such arguments have convinced me that “early infanticidal childrearing” is
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sports, dancing or party games which would have been enjoyed by most others not too busy about their own survival. Being denied so many of the joys of life they tried to rationalize their dull lifestyle. Some things – especially sex – where imagined to not have to be fun and should not be. Others where imagined to be intrinsically evil. Even humour and laugher where labelled as evil probably out of fear of being ridiculed. Yet people seemed to really enjoy all those things. From this the clergymen drew the wrongful conclusion that humans where born evil. This religiously motivated idea was taught in sermons and slowly worked its way trough the population. I think this could explain much of the moralizing that still exists in the
Western World today.
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If this wasn't the case, there would be no cultural differences in the world. The idea of the nuclear family would not have been understood before 150 years ago or so, yet people talk as if people have lived like Ozzie and
Harriet for millenia past. At the very least, failure to address it is one of the reasons psychohistory is seen as a pseudoscience. Terms used today can have connotations that they wouldn't have had in the past. Without addressing this, psychohistory is like Biblical literalism, you can literally make up anything you want by twisting the meaning of the words and taking them out of context, with unintended connotations, etc. --
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the palace. The aristocrats or priests of the palace would redistribute the wealth, in a manner that was supposed to be optimal for all of society. This made church and state a single theocratic institution, to be obeyed by all. An example is the concept of
Pharaoh, which means "great house". Another example is some early Christian communities that would give all they had to the patriarch, who would return what they needed to live. This is similar to the ancient concept of Gift economy. Of course, the obligation of producers to hand over all or most their goods, is borderline slavery, yet another topic.
525:). This would have further increased the frequency of sexual dissatisfaction as well as mental traumas. With unhappy parents raising even more unhappy children the quality of parenting may well have decreased until a considerable part of the worst parents would have died childless due to inability to take care of their children. (This would have stopped natural population growth as well as prevented further decrease in the quality of parenting.) Such a process could explain the evidence of terrible parenting found among old civilisations and historically attested
609:” was created by people which prime goal was to make children useful to their parents. Ignorant of the very existence of any differences in interest between parents and children they had no idea that their goal conflicted with what is the best for the children. They did not only believe that humans where born evil but where also psychologically highly ignorant causing them to jump to conclusion based on external behaviour. I know that scientific research about the human mind –
1167:) He is known for his book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind". In that book, he argued that before approximately 1000BC, ancient peoples were not conscious, as modern people are, but had a "bicameral mind". Their bicameral brains produced hallucinations, perceived as communications with supernatural beings or gods. This is a theory that is probably not possible to prove by any experiment, but is significant, in the field of psychohistory.
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experience of childrearing themselves (upper-class men with so little contact with their own children that they may not even had known each other). Anyway, the result was a type of parenting which had no basis in any real knowledge of the human mind. If it was followed closely it would be far more harmful than helpful. I can’t help perceiving this type of parenting as ruthless but this is just mine opinion.
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equal x isn't psychohistory. Try doing the same with history, eg. 'to understand history is to know that anyone who ever started a war was totally justified in every way, and anyone who says otherwise is not a true historian.' That's a logical fallacy, and so is saying that 'I don't understand or like this so therefore it can't be true psychohistory.'
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careful not to project present into the past as it is not objective, so how do psychohistorians justify doing this? Would they say the concept of
Knowledge existed in the stone age, though it was just latent and not yet brought out into the light? Are we dealing with Platonic ideals here? What in history changes and what is stagnant for them?
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high level of mortality among infants and toddlers. Under such circumstances anything increasing children's chances of reaching adulthood would be an evolutionary advantage. Personally, I think that hunter-gatherers are (where) relatively good parents: loving and not so very oppressive towards the wants of their children.
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that these disciplines share. It is not meaning anymore more than sharing the letter "i". I presume that no author who works in the field of psychohistory ever mentioned cliodynamics. (This can be proven empirically.) So "cliodynamics" should not even be mentioned in the article, because that would be misleading.
505:. With inherited political leadership and different social classes there where for the first time reasons for parents to arrange marriage for their children. This leads to much less sexual and emotional sanctification resulting in both a marked increase in rape within marriage as well as the invention of
1246:, I studied history (as an academic minor) under one of the founders of the GUPH; I'm well aware of what it is and ain't. What it strongly shares with cliometrics is that it is an interdisciplinary approach to history, and in that sense cliometrics is its successor as the dominant interdisciplinary school.
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So, is psychohistory a taking of modern concepts and projecting them into the past? How is this kind of projection justified? When were the concepts of "family", "childhood" and "abuse" the way we understand them even formulated into concepts? If something we would call "abuse" today is the norm in a
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should have happened around the age of 17 instead of around the age of twelve. It has been scientifically shown that humans are rarely sexually attracted to the people they spent the first six years with. Such an anti-incest instinct only makes sense in a society where you can typically choose your
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other than unsatisfied lust: the need to disprove one's own feeling of being inferior to women. Of cause this would have lead to a marked increase in the prevalence of rape. When agricultural societies grew to become larger than a thousand people formal political leadership become necessary. Often
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Ted Oakes the human brain has not evolved in the last 100,000 years. As such there are not types of emotions in humans today which did not exist in our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Secondly, we have to take into account the circumstances under which hunter-gatherers raise (raised) their children. In
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I'm very familiar with the academic study of psychology, quite familiar with the academic study of history, and reasonably familiar with the academic study of anthropology. Not once in my life, however, have I encountered the academic study of something called psychohistory. The lead paragraph gives
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I do not think a mediator is neccessary. Psychohistory has indeed nothing in common with cliodynamics. Psychohistory is simply the combining of historical sciences and psychology (most often psychoanalysis). The mere fact that there are "interdidisciplinary approaches" is not deliviring any features
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I also recommend a link to the article titled "Palace
Economy", which also ties into psychohistory. As I understand it, before the concept of money was invented, a palace economy or redistribution economy was routine. Most wealth would be turned over from producers to a centralized administration,
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I don't see that this is demonstrated at all. Why should moral disengagement (which is a branch of social psychology) and psychohistory be of necessity mutually exclusive? You're basically saying that psychohistory equals x because that's what you understand to be true and that anything that doesn't
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And I 'third' that! See my comments above under 'Problems'. Moreover, in psychohistory are the 'patients' (to use FellowScientist's apt term) individual 'great men' (plus the occasional 'great woman') or are the 'patients' vague entities like whole societies or, even more mind-bogglingly, whole eras
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appear to have been rare in both peoples resulting in much lover rates of sexual dissatisfaction and mental traumas. The ancient Greeks where the most open-minded people of their time meaning that they took fewer things for granted. I don't know how open-minded the Romans where but they where more
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who don't have any bests of burden women has to carry their children until they could keep the adults' pace. This would limit the number of surviving children to at most one every four years. Also, hunter-gatherers have (had) hard to feed small children – especially during wearing – resulting in a
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My question appears to have gone over some heads. If ppl want to believe the
Ancient Greeks had mopeds and cell phones who am I to contradict them. Concrete objects like "volcanoes" are not the same as abstractions, and the understanding of abstractions can change significantly over time and space.
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contradicts the idea of very bad parenting being the original human condition. If we define “bad” as “harmful” then evolutionally psychology makes it patently absurd. Suppose that our hunter-gatherer ancestors typically treated their children in a certain way then our minds would adopt to handle
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I have noted that pubescent girls typically don’t want to have sex. This may very well be an universal human phenomenon that originally evolved to prevent girls from getting pregnant before they where large enough to give birth safely. However, such a tendency only makes sense in a society where
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was most likely due to sheer necessity. The parent ether where too poor to provide for their children or had died from them (typically from violence or infectious diseases). Yet bloodlines where considered to important that proper adoption would had been rare and maybe not even allowed. I don't
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Psychohistory is the psychological studies using within limits traditional psychological methods generally of leaders while cliodynamics is mathematical modeling of long-term social processes by the use of the construction and analysis of historical databases. It models historical processes using
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I have just finished translating this wiki into Dutch, and got very familiar with the text while spending many hours on it. I found several points for improvement and already applied these in the Dutch version. Now I'm amending the
English text accordingly (and will continue later this week - not
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has pointed out it would not be possible for a band to survive under such circumstances. I am also aware that in most hunter-gatherer societies women has (had) the same social status as men. In such societies people do (did) make a difference between “women's work” and “men's work” but “women's
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making it possible for
Europeans to have much of positive contact with other peoples. This caused a first increase in open-mindedness which lead to the development of modern science. The habit of questioning established dogmas introduced by early scientists gave rise to the fantastic idea that
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and honest communication. Instead it never occurred to them that they might have been wrong and as such they never realised that they had been talking through their hats. Furthermore, I strongly suspect that the so-called “poisonous pedagogy” was codified and popularised by people which had no
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The positions of this psychohistory seem to be really vague. Answering some of these questions might clarify it some. Is the projection of modern ideas into the past something they do as a part of their technique, or do they claim these ideas have existed at all times? Other historians are very
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would most likely be limited to unwanted children and those without parents since they would not have much chance of reaching adulthood anyway. However I am aware that there are (where) enormous differences between different tribes ranging from reluctance to even warn children about dangers to
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Mediaeval clergymen may well have contributed to worsening parenting methods in a more indirect way. These peoples where denied any sex (socially forced celibacy) and had severe restrictions on food (ban on meats and regular fastening). Also, their typically strict schedules gave no time for
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When I read that the discussion page was not intended for discussing psychohistory in itself I had already devoted about a week to writing so I could not just drop the project. Also, I have come up with a few of things more to criticise. The expressions used in the description of “Intrusive
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A vaguely worded claim that "critics " have called PH a pseudoscience is not good enough to establish this. Who are they? The site linked to in the citation looks like its self published and not a good source. I have removed this sentence. Can we find a substantial source who has said this.
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in history, whole stages of human development, or what? Then we also need to know whether psychohistory is wedded to psychoanalyis. The article is at present riddled with unacknowledged problems, fanciful speculation, unstated assumptions and the like. It is singularly uninformative, too.
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If anybody is able to address these questions, please do. While you're at it, consider referring to this evidence in order to support the claims made in the article itself. Alternatively, you might decide instead to simply remove all these unsupported assertions. It's entirely up to you.
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Currently the article states "Cliodynamics has emerged instead as the dominant inter-disciplinary approach to history." I am not sure if I agree with that as history is full of inter-disciplinary approach but I can live with that. Thanks all for helping out to resolve this question.
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2. One would expect an encycopledia article on a topic like this to state as clearly as possible key underlying assumptions. ('Men - and a few women - make history?' 'Parenting is key to history'?) It should also have something about the various schools of thought within the subject.
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3. There ought to be some acknowledgement that other areas of history, especially social history, are also concerned with the history of the family though they don't share the preocupation with physically destructive parenting apparent in the table 'psychogenic modes'.
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new infectious diseases evolved resulting in epidemics becoming much more prevalent and deadly. On the other hand being domiciled meant that women no longer had to carry their children around and could those have a child every year. So despite a drastic increase in
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always develop unique personalities even if they grow up together.) To control everything a child perceives would be a truly superhuman feast. Does the author really think that parents can shape their children as they want or have I misunderstood something?
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No, this person should stay well away from the article. So far, this Lena has had nothing to add except massive space-wasting OR, PoV and Freud-war objections. When she has *an actual relevant source* to cite or quote from, a contribution will be welcome.
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to the development of psychohistory. Also, I wonder whether this article could say more about how academic historians sometimes criticise psychohistory for not taking enough cognizance of social or economic factors in influencing historical processes?
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completely ready yet). My main effort is to take away bias toward DeMause, and change the order of paragraphs to make the reading more logical. Please have a critical look and check my
English (although most changes are just removal or replacements)
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Given this article is presented throughout as pertaining to psychological science, I am minded to ask: what have these psychohistorians "accomplished" in the field of psychology? In what sense are they "distinguished" in the field of psychology?
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I think we need to make a crucial and clear distinction in the introduction and definition. Is psychohistory a study of the psychological aspects of historical events and changes in the world and in society? And/or is it also/either a study of a
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Contrary to popular belief the development of agriculture lead to a considerable decrease in the quality of life. Being dependant on a low number of plant and animal species as food meant that starvation become much more prevalent. At least in
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Moral disengagement seems to refer to a theory distinct from psychohistory, therefore it has nothing to do in the introduction of this article. Maybe it could go into "See also" section, or something else. In the meantime, I simply deleted it.
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since I cannot see it in the link (or perhaps it's about Freud, not deMause?). Also, I'll make some changes like removing an unsourced phrase so that the tag may be removed. If these sections are placed back, the tag should be added as well.
479:. Yet I don't think the tribes with the most oppressive parenting would have been long-lived since they would not have had enough surviving children. That is the prime reason why I imagine hunter-gatherers as relatively good parents.
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psychological history (ie. childhood, family, abuse?)? The two seem to not be clearly demarcated in the intro though both have been mentioned. The relationship and difference between these two aspects of the study must be clarified.
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inflict on individual women also shows that it was not the norm amongst our hunter-gatherer ancestors. If forced sex had been the norm such an universal human reaction would not have evolved at all. In fact the modern science of
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What an idiotic load of blather! You might as well ask if it's 'justified' or 'valid' to use the concept of 'volcanoes' in discussing the destruction of Pompeii 'because ancient Romans had no concept of "vulcanology"'. Pathetic!
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for their own comfort. This would have lead to worse parenting since unrelated people are more likely to treat children badly than the children's own parents. Also, the labour conditions for these would have caused even more
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I think the scheme of psychogenic modes is based more on a preconceived idea of linear progress than any real knowledge of the past. Let me first state that I don’t believe in the noble savage. But I am aware that typical
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To help students who are studying this topic, psychohistory, I recommend that at least a "see also" link be added from this article (psychohistory) to the articles titled "Julian Jaynes" and the article "Palace Economy
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against. Many people with inborn mental aberrations have had their lives destroyed by treatment based on misconceptions about past experiences. Please note that inborn mental differences are individual and
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This talk page is only for discussions to improve the Psychohistory article. If anybody wants to discuss Psychohistory issues unrelated to the improvement of the page, please do it in the above-linked forum.
448:. On the other hand violence is (where) many times more common than in the 20th century Western World. However, violence between humans has never been a part of everyday life for hunter-gatherers. As
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did two centuries ago.) I may be accused for limiting myself too much to the Western World. However, it is not my fault but the Psychohistorians and it is them I am doing my best to criticise.
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No, I do not see the relevance, Psychohistory is an attempt to use the tools of psychology to analysis people in the past, it may have a place in cliodynamics but if so only a minor place.
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A work of psychohistorical research, published in a peer-reviewed, mainstream anthropological journal, the results of which demonstrate empirical support for the axioms of psychohistory?
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A work of psychohistorical research, published in a peer-reviewed, mainstream historical journal, the results of which demonstrate empirical support for the axioms of psychohistory; and
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A work of psychohistorical research, published in a peer-reviewed, mainstream psychological journal, the results of which demonstrate empirical support for the axioms of psychohistory;
1032:. The internet history blog Historical Underbelly looks at some of the ways in which the mechanisms of moral disengagement appear to be evident in numerous stages throughout history."
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note that Knowledge is no soapbox. If a new editor feels tempted to soapbox here, please see these excerpts from an archived flaming discussion, originally posted in Knowledge, that
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The ancient Greeks and Romans may well have been among the peoples less affected by the decrease in quality of parenting due to the development of agriculture. Both peoples where
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existed in Middle Age Europe it was probably due to necessity rather than anything else. Not until well into the Renaissance did upper-class women start to use wet-nurses and
776:. This is because I worry about the consequences of not following them to the best of one’s ability. My criticism of psychoanalytics is toward them as a group rather than
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of girls would have been caused by too arranged marriage implemented at a too early age. (Think young girls forced to have sexual intercourse with adult men shortly after
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The more recent improvement in parenting methods can be explained by people getting more open-minded and tolerant in general. This process begun with the
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41:. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them.
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Next, why aside from personal preference, do you see no significance to interdisciplinary approaches to history, if that is what yo are implying above?
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consensual sex is the norm. In a society where rape of children where the norm it would make more sense to sexually mature later. What I mean is that
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The lead article tells me that psychohistory is "an amalgam of psychology, history, and related social sciences and the humanities". Very interesting!
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this political leadership came to be inherited within a family. Also, societies of more than a thousand people would have enough resources to develop
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differential equations, simulations, statistical analysis, historical macrosociology and economic history/cliometrics. They are totally different.
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My apologies, I see you have finally moved it. So, to respond: DeMause was attempting to create a system of macrosociology. Do you dispute that?
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I'd strongly disagree that there is no crossover; deMause was attempting to create a school of macrosociology, albeit with no success, thank God.
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they spread misconceptions about mental problems and their causes. Something people with the mental problems in question may suffer badly from.
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prominent reference to the "insights of psychology", along with a footnote about "accomplished and often distinguished psychohistorians".
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I think it was invented for the convenience of parents and that the medical benefits where almost completely imaginary. To the extent
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populations started to grow. Since women no longer had the same status as men there was now at least one more motif for men to commit
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
573:.) I have seen no sign that rape of unmarried girls would have even been socially acceptable. Later during the Middle Ages it was
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a correct description of humanity’s original condition. But his is only one of the many historical errors I see in Psychohistory.
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think monks and nuns had the resources to take care of any significant part of the society's children. I don't know how common
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are (or where) free from many of the evils which have plagued civilisations since the inventing of writing: arranged marriage,
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is so massive that one might be forgiven for thinking that there is no other contemporary psychohistorian worth mentioning.
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was but it might have been mainly due to desperate need for sex. After all, both sexual attraction towards children and
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are (where) unable to feel non-sexual love for their children for evolutionary reasons. First, according to the British
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Can any of these questions be answered? It would make the article a lot more interesting and clear up some confusion. --
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I disagree the fact that both are interdisciplinary is irrelevant as is possible crossovers. They are very different.
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would be as primitive as using intentional bleeding to treat everything other than fractures. (If we are to believe
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specifically. I think Sigmund have caused more harm by setting a bad example than though his discredited ideas.
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Why have I never heard of this "amalgam of psychology, history, and related social sciences and the humanities"?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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ancestors. The very low quality of life in such societies may also explain the existence of religions such as
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can have a positive effect on certain mental problems. But using it to treat all mental problems other than
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Lena you should get an account an edit, you seem to know more on the subject than any of us, its free. --
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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716:. Psychoanalytics have a long record of drawing premature conclusions which they refuse to accept any
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ethnology is a branch of anthropology, but article seems to imply that they are somehow separate.
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Again how is this relevant, note I do see significance to interdisciplinary approaches to history,
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http://historicalunderbelly.wordpress.com/manufacturing-scapegoats-moral-disengagement-in-history/
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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and underwent a period of republic during which the political leadership was not hereditary.
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Could somebody, if it's not too much trouble, point me in the direction of the following:
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determined by which group you belong to. To the extent Psychohistorians don't work like
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https://web.archive.org/web/20060703011204/http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/p132x146.htm
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Maybe we should get a meditator and I will agree with his desicion, what do you think?
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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which teach that everything is suffering and which goal is detachment from the world.
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When I recently archived the whole talk page, I forgot the statement in tag template:
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Agreed (though a bit late ;)) I'll see if I write a bit about her in the near future.
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should be added to the list of "Notable historians" - his psychological studies of
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and economical injustice. Other evils exist (existed) in a far less extent:
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I recommend that a "see also" link to the article titled "Julian Jaynes". (
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have never had much basis in empirical evidence anyway. I don’t deny that
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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probably make one of the most famous names in the field of psychohistory.
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I seriously wonder to what extant these Psychohistorians use the normal
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Instead of placing the discussion back, I'll rather remove the sentence
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not socially acceptable and was even banned by Mediaeval kings. About
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I would think there'd be a more blatant mention of Alice Miller.
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Recommend add links to "Julian Jaynes" & "Palace Economy"
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sexual partner yourself. The enormous mental suffering that
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Then why are you trying to eliminate that from the article?
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I was surprised by how little coverage this article gave to
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parenting so oppressive that some children where driven to
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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emotions are unusual in humans. The most common form of
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I wonder to what extent the Psychohistorians use the
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374:"Jacques Barzun has called it 'pseudo-historical'"
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837:society, does it make sense to call it abuse?
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1025:There was this sentence is the introduction :
1539:http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/p132x146.htm
783:2010-05-16 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
732:2010-02-05 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
704:2010-05-14 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
669:2009-12-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
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