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I reverted the change because the link was added to areas specifically about web browsers and so didn't make sense to me. I don't use
Microsoft Windows nor know much about its recent interfaces.. but would it make sense to add something about SChannel / SSPI to this article? I defer to those editors
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Hmm... that's a good point about the deprecation of TLS 1.0 and 1.1. I'm not sure changing it to red makes sense, though, given that this is really a historical view of the development, and the point of the chart is to have a historical timeline of whether browsers supported different versions of TLS
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As this is a network protocol, the word data should include all bits that are physically detectable between the 2 computers. "The server and client negotiate the details of which encryption algorithm and cryptographic keys to use before the first byte of data is transmitted" refers to an action which
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I think there may be a reasonable case to be made for your split off of adoption. It is mostly a long table and the ongoing adoption of various TLS versions by various browser vendors is distinct from TLS itself. I'd like to hear whether other editors think this is a good candidate for splitting off
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is now available and searchable from the header at the top of this page. I moved over most of the Talk content prior to 2019 and retained a few items that seemed to still be open issues. If anyone believes something I archived should still be on this main Talk page, please feel free to move it back.
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I am not sure I understand the concern. I gather the person thinks the use of "data" is inappropriate here, but I'm not sure how they would suggest it be changed. Are they perhaps saying that in truth "data" IS being exchanged in the handshake happening between the server and client? But the "data"
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I note another editor has edited the "Perspectives
Project" write-up into the past tense, as this project no longer exists. As per my comments above, I think it's time to delete the whole "Dealing with Man in the Middle Attacks" subsection and replace it with a link under "See also" to Certificate
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This subsection was always of tenuous value. I note that another editor has now deleted the sub-subsection on DNS Chaining. This leaves two sub-subsections: Certificate
Pinning and the Perspectives Project. The former mechanism was deprecated by the Google Chrome team in late 2017 because of its
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I agree that this article is too long, particularly with the very lengthy - but very useful - tables with comparison of TLS implementation in different web browsers and applications. I know people who have been referencing the tables here, particularly for the web browsers, but it does make for an
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This needs MUCH more discussion by editors of this article before it is summarily cut up into several ancillary articles. Quite apart from the issues of whether the article is too long (itself debatable), there is the issue of which sections should be moved to their own WP pages. For example, I'm
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While I agree such a table could be useful, creating the table and keeping it up to date would involve a LARGE amount of effort. A critical question, too, would be how to scope the number of email clients (although perhaps it could be limited initially to
Microsoft Outlook, Apple Mail (for Mac and
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Why are SDNS, an obscure corner of the failed OSI project, and SNP, a proposed secure socket API that's more in line with IPsec than TLS, listed as if they were part of the history of SSL? Neither have anything to do with SSL, or at least more to do with SSL than a dozen other random things that
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that is "a project about collecting and sharing JA3 hashes." There is also GitHub repo with a sample implementation. As best I understand this after quickly skimming the article, I gather that the fingerprinting would allow an IT team to potentially identify connections from malware applications,
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I will note that I reverted the reversion of my change as an IP editor was again adding the SChannel text back into the table about web browsers when SChannel is not a web browser and is already listed in the table of libraries. Hopefully between this note here and my long edit summary for the
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I'm hesitant to delete the "Dealing with Man-in-the-Middle
Attacks subsection without further feedback, but it may be time to ask: is it time to delete this subsection? It doesn't really give the reader any useful information about contemporary TLS and its historical value is rather picayune
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The summary states that TLS runs in the applications layer but this seems to have no citation and doesn't seem accurate based on sources I've chanced upon. Other sources I've read describe that TLS technically operates between the transport and application layers but is generally considered a
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complexity and dangerous side-effects. The text really doesn't tell the reader anything useful about TLS (thought there is a WP article on it that can be linked to under See Also). The latter (Perspectives) hasn't gone anywhere since it was tentatively introduced circa 2014.
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used in "the first byte of data" is actually the "payload" of the packet after the TLS handshake has been finalized? I'm not clear on what exactly they think needs to be fixed here. I suppose I can see a nuance there, but I also think it reads fine as it is. -
2384:, but it is not a mere translation of a stream of data provided by the previous layer. In particular, TLS also does a handshake and negotiates the maintenance and termination of a secure connection between two points. This can be seen as belonging in the
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Or, we could set (and document clearly) the criteria a browser must meet to be listed. If it's a marketshare threshold, I think the limit would need to be very low, numerically, because 1/10 of 1% on the
Internet is still a really big number. Cheers!
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The classification in the table is very confusing for readers trying to understand TLS and HTTPS. HTTP/2 and TLS 1.3 forbids ciphers of type block cipher and stream cipher. I suggest moving ChaCha20-Poly1305, GCM and CCM to a third type called AEAD.
1528:, you will see that the last version of the protocol formally known as "Secure Sockets Layer" or "SSL" was SSL 3.0, announced in 1996 and deprecated in 2015. Starting in 1999, the protocol has formally been called "Transport Layer Security" or "TLS".
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I might add that while a general discussion of security is good, a list of every known vulnerability could easily be forked. But I do not really care. Propose a different split up. But do it. Don't just revert other people's contributions.
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Are you still interested in nominating this page for GA? Since you asked this question in 2016, there were not any responses one way or the other. I have not personally been involved with a GA nomination and so don't have an opinion yet. -
1682:– A look at statscounter.com for January 2021 (not very scientific, but fast) shows Opera at 2.62%, above IE (1.95%), but below Edge (7.79%) and Firefox (8.1%). Besides, I dislike hit-and-run deletions (i.e. without discussion). Cheers! —
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I have made an attempt to shorten the introduction by moving some of the expansive details to the "description" section. While the change seems big, the content and detailed information is preserved in the more appropriate section.
1318:. (I changed it to be a redirect and merged in the only relevant edit to that article into this article.) I'm open to discuss this article split, but only if there is a proper discussion and no premature contested content moves.
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not at all convinced that the very essence of TLS -- its security, which has continued to evolve and change in response to threats -- should be moved into an article with the confusing title "Transport Layer
Security Security."
1536:, it is very common for people and companies to still talk about "SSL", even now in 2020, although formally that protocol is now called "TLS". There are many code functions and libraries that still have "SSL" in the name (ex.
2267:"All the alerts listed in Section 6.2 MUST be sent with AlertLevel=fatal and MUST be treated as error alerts when received regardless of the AlertLevel in the message. Unknown Alert types MUST be treated as error alerts. "
1581:- and when. I do see that newer versions of browsers now have yellow squares with "Disabled by Default" in them. This seems like perhaps the better approach. Over time we will hopefully see that for all the new releases. -
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Most web browsers are now removing support for TLS 1.0 and 1.1 because they are not secure. Should the browser history of TLS support table be changed so supporting TLS 1.0 and 1.1 is red instead of green?
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says that articles over 100 kB "almost certainly should be divided". I propose spliting out section "Applications and adoption" into a separate page (and writing short summaries of these sections here).
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Given that this is a comment from an unsigned IP, it's hard to find out exactly what they think should be added. I had to do a web search on "JA3" and I see that it seems to refer to this technique:
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In the
Protocol Details it describes the bit order for the length as (bits 15-8) (bits 7-0). Is there a precedence in using 'bits' to denote the exponents, rather than establishing that /TLS uses
1265:, I don't see much talk going on. So much easier to revert than to contribute. But if you are going to be a revert artist then do it properly. Fix the duplicated adoption page as listed below.
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This claim is dubious. The problem is that this protocol, as many others (eg.: QUIC) don't fit well in the OSI model. TLS performs encryption, which traditionally has been associated with the
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On the other hand it completely omits to mention PCT, which was a direct part of the history of TLS, being one of the major motivating factors for both the creation of TLS and its name.
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Parking lot - no time to incorporate now, but NSA just provided recommendations on blocking obsolete TLS versions, cypher suites, and key exchange mechanisms to improve security.
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iOS), Thunderbird, Android mail, and whatever others people add). There would need to be substantial interest from other editors to take this on. Anyone interested? -
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Just to clarify: I agree that the tables are very useful, I do not propose to alter them in any way. I propose only to move them to dedicated pages for ease of use.
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This Talk page was so long and had so many sections from back in 2012-2015 that it was incredibly difficult to understand what were current issues. Following the
1665:- My vote would be to keep Opera listed. While it may be small in market share, I think it is useful to understand the degree of TLS support that it includes. -
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Do others believe this is still relevant? If so, anyone want to provide content? I'm assuming the unsigned request was for a new sub-section under
Algorithm. -
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As that is a rather large change, and there would also be changes needed in the supporting text, I have reverted this change for the moment and am asking here.
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In the TCP/IP model shown in the right bar, TLS appears correctly classified as
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Question for editors who work with Microsoft Windows - should something be added to this article about TLS support in "SChannel / SSPI" in addition to IE?
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1701:- My vote would be to keep Opera listed as well. It has a small market share, and is it Knowledge (XXG)'s place to effectively promote certain browsers?
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Can someone please add Authentication Algorithm section in the Algorithm heading? This's a separate thing which's negotiated during the handshake.
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transport layer protocol . It would surprise me if a protocol called "Transport Layer" Security didn't actually operate in the transport layer.
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1934:. I believe the best way forward is to reconcile the two versions into one in this article, then fix it, and move it to a permanent location.
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I think the word "SChannel" should be explained. "Support for TLS 1.3 was first added to Schannel with Windows 11 and Windows Server 2022."
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Also worth noting: the RFC magic links seem to be cleaned up. So, it may be a good idea to verify and remove it from that hidden category.
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I think this would make a good nomination for a GA. Does anyone have any strong feelings on this? If not, I'd like to put it forward.
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Do editors agree that Opera should be removed from the table of web browsers with support for TLS? (Please comment with 'Keep'/'Remove')
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Has anyone considered adding the old 'locked' and 'unlocked' padlock images that show on URLs on some browsers to the main content page?
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revert, the editor will understand that SChannel is already listed in the article and does not need to be in the web browser table. -
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The problem is even harder with the OSI model. This article claims it belongs in the presentation layer, which is debatable.
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Therefore i would keep it. Maybe next Windows 11 will not contain IE anymore, but SChannel still base of many other stuff.
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The current classification does not align with the TLS protocol inself. Section 6.2.3. of RFC 5246 defines three types:
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Pinning (i.e., HTTP Public Key Pinning). Unless anyone objects here, I'll delete the section in another week or two.
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So in real data shown in Table reflect the SCannel config not the behavior by IE (excapt some special case in past)
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There should be a table listing email clients and supported ssl/tls versions, similar to the one about browsers.
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Create the Project Navigation Box including lists of adopted articles, requested articles, reviewed articles, etc.
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even without being able to decrypt the actual TLS connection. It seems to me, though, that this could also have
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I raised this before and no response. So there comes a time to act, otherwise nothing gets done. So will YOU
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According to TLS v1.3 RFC and it is always fatal like other TLS 1.3 alerts This article needs to be updated.
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I do agree that this text is very dense. Do you have any suggestions for making it easier to understand? -
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remove opera as very minor marketshare, else many other browsers with minor marketshare have to be added.
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points out, deleting a particular browser without specific criteria for exclusion doesn't seem helpful.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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What hidden category are you referring to? (I was not aware there could be hidden categories) -
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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Remove the OSI model classification, or clarify the problematic in assigning TLS to a layer
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The article was and remains far too long. I have split it up a bit but more could be done.
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a "web browser". It's an API, correct? The section it is being added into is a table for
2035:(Add info about SChannel to highlight that these infos are not related to browsers only).
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Nearly all on Windows (MS own products) use SCannel, like IE, IIS, (old)Edge, Office etc
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This article is incomprehensible. I don't see how any nonspecialist can understand it.
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Find editors who have shown interest in this subject and ask them to take a look here.
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A new alert code `no_application_protocol` was introduced with code 120 or 255
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If no API should be inside, whole Android Section would need to be removed too.
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prior to 1 November 2008 and incorporated under the "relicensing" terms of the
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Who made it look like code in a monospace font at the beginning of the page?
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I recommend entirely avoiding the OSI model classification in this article.
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ramifications. Perhaps it might make sense to have a new sub-section about
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This treatment would be consistent with other articles on other protocols:
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Transport_Layer_Security#Attacks_against_TLS/SSL Attacks_against_TLS/SSL
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
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near the Internet Explorer references. The reference pointed over to
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If you don't already know what this is, you won't find out here. ---
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Please discuss proposals here before making more large-scale edits.
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There is also a problem of "Security" section being duplicated by
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Blocking obsolete TLS, cypher suites, and key exchange mechanisms
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Google.com m.youTube.com and youtube.com di account private
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put back at least the adoption? As to the article size, see
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extremely long page. Your proposal makes sense to me. -
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being used underneath it all is now the TLS protocol. -
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Created new Archive 2 page due to length of this page
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1524:Hi there. If you look at the
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1905:Hypertext Transfer Protocol
1629:the section on web browsers
1614:14:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
1362:13:17, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
1275:05:34, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
1005:07:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
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2445:B-Class Computing articles
2401:14:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
2337:13:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
2320:6.2.3.2. CBC Block Cipher
2229:14:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
1901:Comparison of mail servers
1861:04:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
1825:00:37, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
1808:05:46, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
1526:history timeline and chart
1490:19:24, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
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983:19:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
936:19:28, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
877:{{slink||Cipher security}}
722:project's importance scale
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2530:B-Class Internet articles
1889:Comparison of SSH servers
1885:Comparison of SSH clients
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1554:21:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1518:07:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
1328:08:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
550:WikiProject Cryptography
25:Transport Layer Security
1560:TLS 1.0 and 1.1 Removal
1220:. It is way too big.
842:, version 1.3 or later.
2495:All Computing articles
2415:B-Class vital articles
2323:6.2.3.3. AEAD Ciphers
2082:Sure, but SChannel is
1917:File Transfer Protocol
1838:could be thrown in.
1462:(Undated and unsigned)
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2183:Seems to be OK now. ~
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415:Things you can help
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1949:Ross Fraser
1623:Someone at
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1263:Ross Fraser
1197:Ross Fraser
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1066:Ross Fraser
1051:Ross Fraser
148:free images
31:not a forum
2409:Categories
2348:big-endian
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795:Technology
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745:Technology
277:Networking
2269:4n0nymou2
1873:WP:LENGTH
1737:(Comment)
1475:process,
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461:AAlertBot
327:Computing
314:computing
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241:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
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1941:Tuntable
1857:contribs
1845:unsigned
1800:ILMostro
1606:RookWolf
1542:actually
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1267:Tuntable
1237:Tuntable
1222:Tuntable
1168:Tuntable
952:unsigned
913:contribs
901:unsigned
693:Internet
684:Internet
640:Internet
281:Security
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
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1723:undated
1567:Herbfur
1538:OpenSSL
1534:However
1383:privacy
997:FalconK
720:on the
591:on the
433:history
354:on the
243:B-class
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1909:HTTP/2
1849:806f0F
1389:under
1346:WTF?
316:, and
249:scale.
126:Google
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2096:Dyork
2043:Dyork
1982:Dyork
1817:Dyork
1746:Bubba
1743:Uncle
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1667:Dyork
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1399:Dyork
1261:Well
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1140:Dagme
1122:Dagme
1097:Dyork
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975:Dyork
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443:purge
438:watch
419:with:
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169:JSTOR
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84:Seek
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1705:Keep
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1088:Done
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1001:talk
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909:talk
862:Tip:
840:GFDL
428:edit
346:High
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2084:not
1953:.
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1627:in
1393:or
712:Top
583:Top
176:TWL
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