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User:Gibson Flying V (talk · contribs · logs) has been on Knowledge (XXG) since early 2007, materially editing and creating several articles, mostly on the topic of "the greatest game of all". Really caring about Knowledge (XXG) means resolving to have it come down on the right side of every content editing choice, important and unimportant alike. The right or wrong side is less readily discernible by the diverse group of people who click 'edit' than one might think. This is why Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability is so important, as well as Knowledge (XXG):Competence is required.

This editor is a Looshpah Laureate of the Encyclopedia and is entitled to display this Book of All Knowledge with Secret Appendix, Free Errata Sheet, and Author's Signature.	“,;:’ This user is a punctuation stickler.	their there they're This user thinks that there are too many people who don’t know that they're worse than their own children at spelling!
your you're This user thinks that if your grammar is incorrect, then you're in need of help.	’s Thi's user know's that not every word that end's with s need's an apostrophe and will remove misused apostrophe's from Knowledge (XXG) with extreme prejudice.	less & fewer This user understands the difference between less & fewer.
its & it's This user understands the difference between its and it's. So should you.	to too two Too many people have no idea how to use words they should have learnt in year two.	loose  lose Not enough people know the difference between loose and lose. Do you?
than then This user understands the difference between using "than" and "then."	they This user frequently uses singular they as it is a handy gender-neutral pronoun.	"You can take this user out of Queensland, Ron, but you can't take the Queensland out of this user."
which & that This user knows how to use which and that correctly.

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Bruce Astill • Geoff Bell • Eric Bennett • Tom Bourke • Charles Cahill • Arthur Conlin • Cyril Connell, Snr. • Herb Gilbert, Jnr. • Noel Goldthorpe • Robin Gourley • Brian Graham • Ross Henrick • Cavill Heugh • Greg Holben • Norm Jacobson • Joe Kilroy • Tom Kirk • Martin Lang • Terry Matterson • Fonda Metassa • Des Morris • Ray Morris • Clinton O'Brien • Bill Pearson • Matthew Ryan • Peter Ryan • Gary Smith • Neville Smith / • Neil Tierney • Darryl van der Velde

Allan Agar • Graham Appo • Ken Arthurson • Bob Bax • Paul Broughton • Bill Buckley • John Carlaw • Geoff Carr • Craig Coleman • John Dixon • Doug Fleming • Laurie Freier • Albert Goldthorpe • Anthony Griffin • Terry Hughes • Johnny Hunter • Bill Keato • Dean Lance • Mark Laurie • Jack Lindwall • Steve Linnane • Peter Louis • Tom Mooney • Manfred Moore • Matt Nable • Luke Phillips • Michael Searle • Steve Sharp • Rick Stone • Barry Russell • Ben Walker • Shane Walker • Colin van der Voort

1997 Super League (Australia) season • 1996 ARL season • 1995 ARL season • 1994 NSWRL season • 1993 NSWRL season • 1992 NSWRL season • 1988 NSWRL season • 1983 NSWRFL season • 1982 NSWRFL season • 1929 NSWRFL season • Thacker Shield • 2005 NRL grand final • 2007 NRL grand final • 2006 NRL Grand Final • 1998 NRL grand final • 2003 NRL grand final • 1908 Interstate rugby league series

Super League IX • Super League VIII • Super League VII • Super League V • Super League IV • Super League III • Super League II

1995-96 Rugby Football League season • 1994-95 Rugby Football League season • 1993-94 Rugby Football League season • 1992-93 Rugby Football League season •1984-85 Rugby Football League season • 1972-73 Northern Rugby Football League season • 1959-60 Northern Rugby Football League season • 1953-54 Northern Rugby Football League season • 1896-97 Northern Rugby Football Union season • 1895-96 Northern Rugby Football Union season

2008 World Club Challenge • 2007 World Club Challenge • 2005 World Club Challenge • 2000 World Club Challenge • 1994 World Club Challenge • 1992 World Club Challenge • 1991 World Club Challenge • 1989 World Club Challenge • 1987 World Club Challenge • 1911-12 Kangaroo tour of Great Britain • 1921–22 Kangaroo tour of Great Britain • 1910 Great Britain Lions tour of Australia and New Zealand • 1992 Great Britain Lions tour of Australia and New Zealand • 1914 Great Britain Lions tour of Australia and New Zealand • Super League Test series • 1996 Challenge Cup • 1929–30 Kangaroo tour of Great Britain • 1978 Kangaroo tour • 1988 Great Britain Lions tour • 1920 Great Britain Lions tour

Harry Sunderland • George Lovejoy • Manningham FC • Labor Daily • List of Australian rugby league team players • Peter Mulholland • List of rugby league families • Earl Park, Arncliffe • Bill Fallowfield • 2005 in rugby league • Tom Brock Lecture • Mad Monday • Birchgrove Park • Andrew Moore (historian) • The Sydney Mail • 2011 St. George Illawarra Dragons season • Henry Hoyle • Hooker (rugby league) • Fullback (rugby league) • Brisbane rugby league team • Five-eighth • Newcastle rugby league team • Three-quarter back • 1925 South Sydney season • Love Letter (Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds song) • 2013 Canberra Raiders season

• Articles about "the working class game" rugby league having to look like they were written by the working class.
• Comparison of rugby league and rugby union (or lack thereof)
• Unnatural prevalence of metres on English Knowledge (XXG) when giving human height in the metric system
• Londo06 (talk · contribs) still being allowed to edit as Fleets (talk · contribs), Theanonymousentry (talk · contribs), et al.
• Ban on mentioning For Whom The Bell Tolls' publication year in the Ride the Lightning article.

Harold Matthews (rugby league) • Jack Leveson/Jack Levison • Neville Charlton • Paddy Maher/Pat Maher (rugby league) •

Oh, there's nothing like the spectacle of a test match in full roar,
with the forwards charging, backs are stepping, running at full bore.
The Pommies and the Kiwis and the Frogs all play real keen,
but we take on all comers and Australia reigns supreme.
So whether you're on The Cricket Ground, Lang Park or the bush,
you're still gonna run, you're still gonna tackle and the scrums have got the same push.
You give it some then you get some more and you really give your all,
playing rugby league football it's the greatest game of all.

• Spillane, Debbie (1993-04-17). "No face balls in red zone". The Sun-Herald. Fairfax Digital. p. 54. Retrieved 2009-10-06. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Rothfield, Phil (2009-12-01). "Footy's golden vision for 2020". The Daily Telegraph. Australia: Queensland Newspapers. Retrieved 2009-12-01. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

• previous match: NSW 11 def. QLD 3Press Association (Volume LXXX, Issue 15, 18 July 1910). "New South Wales v. Queensland". Evening Post. New Zealand: National Library of New Zealand. p. 3. Retrieved 19 March 2011. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• 16 Jul 1910 in Brisbane: NSW 21 def. QLD 8
• 25 Aug 1912 in Brisbane: QLD 15 def NSW 8 (probably due to a NSW touring New Zealand at the same time?)
• 24 Aug 1913 in ?: NSW 27 QLD 12
• 28 Jul 1919 in Sydney: NSW 12 QLD 7
• 29 Sep 1919 in Brisbane: NSW 24 QLD 10
• 04 Jun 1937 in Sydney: NSW ? QLD ?
• Wed 22 June 1949 at SCG: NSW 33 QLD 3
• 20 May 1950 in ?: NSW 45 QLD 12
• 24 May 1950 in Sydney: 9 all
• 25 Jun 1950 in ?
• 15 Jun 1953 in Brisbane: QLD 22 NSW 13
• 27 Jun 1954 in Brisbane: ?
• 09 Jun 1957 in Sydney: NSW 45 QLD 12

]

Team A X		Team B Y
Tries (X): 1st try-scorer 2nd try-scorer 3rd try-scorer		Tries (Y): 1st try-scorer 2nd try-scorer 3rd try-scorer
Goals (X): 1st goal-scorer 2nd goal-scorer 3rd goal-scorer		Goals (Y): 1st goal-scorer 2nd goal-scorer 3rd goal-scorer

Penrith Panthers	Posit.	Sydney Roosters
1 Rhys Wesser	FB	1 Anthony Minichiello
2 Luke Lewis	WG	2 Todd Byrne
3 Luke Rooney	CE	3 Ryan Cross
4 Ryan Girdler	CE	4 Shannon Hegarty
5 Paul Whatuira	WG	5 Chris Walker
6 Preston Campbell	FE	6 Brad Fittler (c)
7 Craig Gower (c)	HB	9 Craig Wing
8 Joel Clinton	PR	8 Jason Cayless
9 Luke Priddis	HK	14 Michael Crocker
10 Martin Lang	PR	10 Ned Catic
11 Joe Galuvao	SR	11 Adrian Morley
12 Tony Puletua	SR	12 Craig Fitzgibbon
13 Scott Sattler	LF	13 Luke Ricketson
14 Ben Ross	Int.	7 Brett Finch
15 Trent Waterhouse	Int.	15 Andrew Lomu
16 Shane Rodney	Int.	16 Chad Robinson
17 Luke Swain	Int.	17 Chris Flannery
John Lang	Coach	Ricky Stuart

If anyone wants to discuss these guidelines or point out any necessary re-wording, by all means, please do so on my talk page or at Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Rugby league.

As much as I think a case-by-case approach will just lead to more problems down the track, it seems that hard and fast rules about which club football is to be included in the {{Infobox rugby league biography}} (and which is not) for all players are unworkable. Maybe the best thing is if a guidline could be agreed to for different general types of players' cases. It should be understood that an article's infobox is not a substitute for its body text. The infobox is merely an added extra, to be used as a common point of reference amongst all individuals for quickly locating the most pertinent/commonly-sought information about them. When it comes to what football an individual played or coached is to be included, an exhaustive list, regardless of notability (e.g. a list including school-age representative teams alongside full international test teams) is a poor option for rugby league. I find the following tests useful when deciding on inclusion:

• Considering the row of 'Totals' (for matches, points, etc.) at the bottom of the 'Club' sections. Will these totals give a skewed representation of a player's career in cases where lower level data is mixed with top-level data?
• Considering whether, during the time spent at a club, it is/was likely, or even possible, for a player to be selected for representative football (which would be present in the "Representative information" section). If, while playing at a particular club, a footballer is selected to play representative rugby league, then clearly that club football is noteworthy. This is also important as time spent in a representative team must have corresponding time spent in a club team so as to avoid the impression that a player came from retirement or obscurity to play representative football. Note that this does not apply to coaching data.
• Considering continuity. Will excluding football played at a club leave unexplained gaps in the data that are likely to raise questions in the minds of readers? If so, this will strengthen the case for inclusion.
• Considering whether data for years, games, tries, goals, field goals, points, etc. is available for football played for a side. If it is available (and citeable), this will strengthen the case for inclusion.

Perhaps the following (which are based on the above), if agreed to, could form the basis of such a guidline.

Guideline Rationale

For players like Brad Fittler, if information on his pre-NSWRL teams was located and included, I think the 'Club' section of his playing career would suffer because of how neatly the figures total as they are now. These totals are a good reflection of his top-level playing career. His junior club matches should not be included in those totals, so I think the status quo for his article is fine (although there is a question mark on the inclusion of the 'City Firsts' team in his representative career. See Ian Walsh below). As for players like Arthur Beetson, the same point could be made about his NSWRL club career totals being adversely affected by his BRL figures. However I think the case made (and apparently agreed to) previously about the inclusion of pre-1988 BRL football (even if it means putting up with blank spaces in some columns) is stronger, particularly as Beetson played for Queensland while at Redcliffe. It should not appear as though he came from retirement to play for the Maroons, so in his case the lack of a neat row of NSWRL totals is the lesser of two evils. Ideally figures could be located and inserted for his time at Redcliffe and included in the row of totals. Therefore I think the status quo for Beetson's article is fine too. (Wally Lewis' case is similar. If the infobox only allowed for figures from his NSWRL career his row of totals would be skewed indeed. Not only that, it would also appear that he played for (and captained) the Kangaroos years before he ever played club football!). For players like Adrian Lam it is different again. His 'Club' section also contains time spent at a Queensland club with several blank columns, however his is a post-1987 Queensland Cup team. Even if data were located and inserted for these games, they should not be included in his 'Club' total for the same reason that Brad Fittler's (see above) pre-NSWRL career shouldn't. However as most people seem to agree with treating Super League as equivalent to the NRL, his Roosters and Wakefield figures being summed would be appropriate, to give a general impression of his career just as Brad Fittler's row of totals does. So in his article's case, the status quo is not acceptable and the Wests club career should be dealt with in the body text. In cases like that of Darren Smith, who went from Super League to a post-1987 Queensland Cup team, yet from there made the occassional appearance for an NRL team, there is no need for the Queensland Cup team's figures to be listed in the 'Club' section and added to its totals. The body text's explanation is sufficient. In Wayne Bennett's case, as already stated, all pre-1988 BRL footy should appear in the infobox. However informaition for Warwick, a Queensland country club, should be moved to the body text if he didn't play representative footy for Queensland whilst there. With Duncan Thompson, as his representative career spanned time spent with all the clubs in his career, it appears no exclusion is necessary. However, the 'Ipswich Starlights' club, who he appears to have briefly played for after returning from the war before resuming his career in the NSWRFL, might be better placed in the body text (as per Darren Smith above). More information would of course be helpful in deciding on cases like this though. For players like Billy Wilson, whose NSWRFL career was punctuated by spells playing for clubs in the bush, I think the bush clubs should stay in his case. It shows that he didn't stop playing footy between his time at the Sydney clubs. It could be argued that he didn't play for any representative teams from those country clubs, but in his case for the sake of continuity, the status quo is acceptable (ideally with further explanation in the body text). With Ian Walsh a decision needs to be made about the 'Western Divison' team that appears under the representative section of his infobox. To be consistent with the above, if it's decided that 'Western Division' should stay, then the clubs from where he was selected should also stay. However, I think City and Country should be the minimum representative level included in the infobox, in which case Walsh's football for 'Western Division' and all the clubs up until Eugowra (from which he was selected for New South Wales) should be moved to the body text and detailed there as, unlike Ian Walsh, there is no continuity issue. Deciding on the fate of 'Western Division' is not so simple yet. More information is needed on this team. If it was assembled to play against touring test teams, then I think it would be of a sufficient level to remain in the infobox. For players like Wally Prigg, who never played for a Sydney team but represented Australia and New South Wales, his Newcastle club data should be retained in the infobox or it would appear that he came from obscurity to play for the Kangaroos. For players like John Dorahy, who moved back and forth beween Australia and England in the days before Super League, I vote that all clubs be included for the following reasons. He was selected for Country while playing for Wests Wollongong. It's agreed that Country should appear in the representative section, so in his case Wests Wollongong should appear in the club section so it doesn't seem as though he played representative footy before playing anywhere else. The time he spent at English clubs should also be included, as looking at the years he was there, they appear to have been in the top flight at those times. Even if they weren't, just including them all might be best anyway (see below). The case of Josh Hannay is more difficult still. His infobox shows him moving from an NRL club to National League One club Celtic Crusaders, a non-top-level team from where representative selection would be almost impossible. If he retired tomorrow it could be argued that the Crusaders figures (if located and included) should go into the body text and not be summed with his NRL figures. However Celtic Crusaders will become a Super League club next season and in all likelihood Hannay will continue to play for them, in which case it would be odd to have nothing for 2007-08, but 2009 figures included. This kind of case could form the basis of a rule stating that if, during a player's time at a lower level club it moves to the top level, the player's whole time there should be included for the sake of continuity. Chris Beattie Corey_Lawrie

Based on the above, I propose the following guidlines (remember, 'exclude' does not mean exclude from the article, it just means from the infobox. Information about this football can be detailed in the body text or even other additional tables in the article):

Football played (or coached) at clubs in the:

• NRL - include all
  • Toyota Cup - exclude all
• Super League - include all
• Pre-1996 Rugby Football League (regardless of division) - include all (unless someone has a better idea. I don't)
• French domestic competitions - include all
• New Zealand domestic competitions
  • Pre-1995 - include all
  • Post-1994 - exclude all
• NSWRL/ARL/SL:
  • First-grade - include all
  • Non-first-grade - exclude all
• Brisbane Rugby League & Newcastle Rugby League:
  • Pre-1988 first grade - include all
  • Pre-1988 non-first-grade - exclude all
  • Post-1987 - exclude all
• Illawarra Rugby League
  • Pre-1982 first grade - include all
  • Pre-1982 non-first grade - exclude all
  • Post-1981 - exclude all
• post-1995 Rugby Football League (e.g. National Leagues 1 & 2) - include some (see guidelines)
• Queensland country competitions - include some (see guidelines)
• New South Wales country competitions - include some (see guidelines)
• Queensland Cup - exclude all
• New South Wales Cup - exclude all

• Template:Infobox rugby league biography
• Knowledge (XXG):Vandalism#Warnings
• Knowledge (XXG):Citation_templates#Examples

• http://www.marathonstadium.com/season.php

• http://203.166.101.37/NRL08/playerindex.asp
• http://www.yesterdayshero.com.au/Index.aspx
• http://www.englandrl.co.uk/
• http://www.nzrl.co.nz/page/past_caps.html
• http://www.thecastlefordtigers.co.uk/alltime.php
• http://www.qrl.com.au/default.aspx?s=history-players
• http://www.showroom.com.au/dragons/dragonshistory/history_players.htm
• http://dolphinclubhouse.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=4&Itemid=48
• http://www.westsmagpies.net/archives/2008/php/players.php
• http://rugby.widnes.tv/playerlist.php
• http://www.rugbyleaguehonours.co.uk/
• http://www.alphamagazine.com.au/features

• http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/
• http://www.nrlstats.com/index.cfm
• http://www.slstats.org/
• http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~maajjs/aus/
• http://thebulldogs.com.au/sportal.php?page=year_results&year=1935

• http://www.playrugbyleague.com.au/docs/ARL_International_Laws_of_the_Game_2008.pdf
• http://books.google.com/books?id=GU3ezfInjVwC&printsec=frontcover Understanding rugby league
• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nklWo8vw-iIC&printsec=frontcover
• http://www.nzrl.co.nz/files/general/annual_report_2007_small.pdf
• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Dfyovsrc2OsC&printsec=frontcover
• http://books.google.com/books?id=NtWto0T5FMEC&printsec=frontcover Australia's sporting success
• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S3VbeAbhxGEC&printsec=frontcover#PPA29,M1
• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aMw_Zpew2OgC&printsec=frontcover
• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3nDbsx3Hk7QC&printsec=frontcover Origin
• http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MC0_bNv8XNYC&printsec=frontcover#PPA5,M1 Beaver
• http://browseinside.harpercollins.com.au/index.aspx?isbn13=9780732284022 El Magic
• http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/apps/newsSearch.ac?sy=smh&sp=adv
• http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/stories/2008/2217107.htm
• http://books.google.com.au/books?id=66OBschGE_YC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

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