521:: Another attack article in the war, I feel like we're building a play-by-play book for future historians. This one had even less casualties than the last two articles I've commented on; again, I can't see why each and every battle in an ongoing war gets an article. Yes they're covered in RS, but they're just like every other attack. I think we should put some sort of edit limit on this topic until the war is concluded, otherwise we're going to see a large amount of these articles come in...Each and every battle isn't notable, that's just the nature of war. Battles happen; they're all tragic, but this isn't a news repository.
776:
biased, but this isn’t a given and if the source is RS it’s bias should be determined by consensus on an item-by-item, article-by-article basis. If bias exists it also doesn’t mean discarding a resource, it’s substance should be reported in neutral wiki voice and balanced by other resources as appropriate. In any event there are other resources which can be used from other sources as mentioned below
251:, which has already been merged, this page is also unnecessary. It is not notable as a standalone event and should be merged into the parent article. As previous discussions have noted, this attack has led to far too many unnecessary child articles. Moreover, this article has very poor-quality sourcing. None of the included sources even refer to a "Holit massacre" by name, and none provide
767:
The example of Ein
Hashlosha (and others) is not sufficient to delete all articles of this kind. The Keep/delete/merge on these kinds of articles are dependent on a case by case analysis. There are many well written and resourced "child" articles of this nature, which exist on this event from various
901:
I have to support
Ayenaee's interpretation that this is clearly all about this event and constitutes sufficient coverage for such a thing. Note that although it feels like a long time ago, Oct 7 was still quite recent. These events will only continue to grow in prominence over time, I can't see that
775:
The references to PRIMARY and POV seem to suggest that references written in the country of a combatant are automatically PRIMARY (which is not the case, primary/secondary remains irrespective of geography) or POV. I understand that that sources in a particular combatants region could be potentially
457:
The
Guardian article isn't about Holit, its about the journey of the Matias family, including their work in Israel's peace movement, mentioning Holit only in passing. The CNN source also mentions Holit only in passing and focuses mainly on the experiences of Thai workers, but during Hamas's general
874:
The article on the
Israeli all woman tank crew discusses how they participated in the defense of Holit: "The IDF has come under intense criticism for its initial slow response to Hamas' attack on October 7, but one unit that jumped into action almost immediately was a group of women tank operators
779:
My superficial google search found the following references which include Holit as 50+ % of the coverage. I stopped once I determined that there was enough diverse coverage to make this article notable and NPOV. I’m not guaranteeing that all are reliable, but given how small a sample this is, they
424:
Thank you, Oleg. Not a single one of these sources mentions a massacre in Holit. The only mentions of a massacre or резня are about the broader
October 7 attacks. None of these sources refer to the portion of the attack that took place in Holit as a distinct massacre. This should thus obviously be
771:
Reference to NOTNEWS (made up of Not OR, Not written as news reports / Not Who’s who / Not gossip) isn’t relevant. None of its definitions are relevant to the intentions of this article, which itemds to gives additional notable information related to the war in wiki voice with appropriate RS. We
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We can disagree on what’s considered sufficient SIGCOV when these are used in the article. One complaint was that there were to many
Israeli sources, this is one of two non Israeli sources (after a superficial search as I’ve noted). We are not debating here what the name of the article should
553:
A) This wasn't a "battle". B) Massacres with less victims are dealt with as - massacres. C) I'm not aware of any "Massacres perpetratwd by Hamas in 2023" article, so there isn't any "parent article". If there were one, I'd be happy to discuss this. Conclusion: disingenuous? Strongly oppose.
866:
The
Politifact source is correcting an incorrect allegation made about the Holit attack. It provides detail of what actually happened in the attack: "In an emailed statement to PolitiFact, an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson said Vach was explaining the Oct. 7 Hamas
975:: Oleg Yunakov sources listed above and Ayenaee analysis above show this meets GNG, there are sufficient WP:IS WP:RS with WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth to support a stand alone article. Article needs to be improved/expanded, but it meets WP:N.
755:
I agree with the nominator that this article is not is not sufficiently wikified, nor does it have sufficient resourcing. I assume it was written by someone unaware of wikipedia policy. But I don’t agree that the subject isn’t worthy of it’s own
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These sources don't appear to be about the Holit massacre. The politifact source doesn't give SIGCOV to the Holit massacre, and instead focuses on Col. Golan Vach's statements. The
Haaretz article is not about the Holit massacre but about
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The determinant of notability is wide coverage in reliable resources. The sources in the current article don’t show this. But the superficial analysis I did of google search results for "Kibbutz Holit" do show such resources (see
480:
CNN: The first third-ish of the article is about a Thai worker from Holit describing how he fought off his attacker and was left for dead. I wasn’t aware that Thais were involved in this attack, which is definitely an issue to
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All of Oleg Y.’s articles talk to the Holit attack, most only about the attack. I’m not sure about the
Russian articles but the others are RS. So notability is achieved here as well - including a diversity of sources.
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879:." A wiki article in the woman tank crews is up for AfD, but is irrelevant to this AfD where the article is being used to provide information on the Holit attack, not the fact that they’re woman tank crews.
490:
Guardian: Mother uses here body to shield her son during Holit attack. She and husband killed but son survives injured and spending 7 hours with parents‘ bodies (we seem to have read different articles
656:
How are there plenty of reliable sources? Where are the reliable sources? Not a single source on the article mentions or even so much as implies a "Holit massacre". None of the sources there are even
52:. This has boiled down to an argument about whether the sources refer to the incident or not, and overwhelming consensus is they do. Potential renaming if desired can be explored on the talk page.
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at AfD). The Al-Jazeera article is indeed about Holit (although it doesn't call it massacre), but mainly mentions that 13 people were killed, there's not much SIGCOV there.
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I support the moratorium. As nomination of multiple article including the ones closed a month ago and trying to argue absence of notability is absurd here. With regards,
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Detaly: (Russian so dependent on Google
Translate) Story of three Russian families who survived the Holit attack, gives more detail of how the attack unfolded
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As I have with a couple of articles, if the decision is keep I will investigate resources in depth and use them to wikify the articles. I haven’t reviewed
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in southwestern Israel. A longer version of the same footage makes it clear that Vach is referring to the scene the Israeli military encountered."
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539:. There is no upper limit to the number of articles that can be created. As long as the topic meets our notability guidelines, it should be kept.
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Roya news. Hamas video of kidnapped children from Holit being coddled, treated well and fed after being taught to say grace before eating:
664:
this is absolutely not notable. Please limit your argumentation to actual Knowledge policies, not to the vibes you get about the matter.
956:- but only because no RS with SIGCOV have been presented. If someone can find multiple such sources, ping me, and I'll change my !vote.
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687:. At most this is a rename proposal. There was significant coverage of this event in reliable sources as shown by Oley Y.
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New York Times: Several paragraphs about resident of Holit who survived the Holocaust but was killed in the Holit attack
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attack and for years before that. I didn't read NYT because its behind a paywall. The rest of the sources don't look RS.
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per above, Pretty sure we already had an AFD on this article recently so not sure why this was raised again.
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should t throw away a notable article just because it isn’t written the best way, we should improve it.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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There have been doubts raised about whether those sources are about this particular event.
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You don't seem to understand the difference between GNG, delete and rename. With regards,
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references but I assume they are also useful for enlarging the article. Happy editing.
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NewsRu: (Russian) How mother and son survived Holit attack, details of unfolding attack
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642:- plenty of reliable sources. Massacre received international attention. WP:GNG.
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1048:. No notability problem. Legitimate SPINOFF of the attack on Israel at large.
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helped turn the tide and clear dozens of terrorists from the kibbutz of Holit
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indicate the existence of sufficient sources for notability and npov:
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Mako: Long article on attack on Holit, how it unfolded and aftermath
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and a moratorium on further such nominations which lack any merit,
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As with several other pages on less prominent components of the
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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Winn news (and others). Walkthrough of kibbutz after event:
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the portion of the October 7 attack that was on Holit. Per
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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 December 22
603:Of course. Per Oleg and others. meets GNG easily.
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1077:). No further edits should be made to this page.
365:Note: This discussion has been included in the
318:Note: This discussion has been included in the
367:list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions
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117:Help, my article got nominated for deletion!
939:. A significant event with media coverage.
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842:All-woman Israeli tank crew fight (2023)
259:) and all are primary, Israeli sources (
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77:Articles for deletion/Holit massacre
787:At least 29 killed incl. 8 babies:
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793:3 tanks involved in suppressing:
738:A significant and covered event.
322:lists for the following topics:
102:Introduction to deletion process
811:Al Jazeera. Cleaning up Holit.
589:Any reasoning to back that up?
245:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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902:it doesn't already meet GNG.
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294:). I have transcluded it to
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62:22:50, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
875:from the Paran Brigade that
286:This AfD was not correctly
92:(AfD)? Read these primers!
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685:Knowledge:Deletion policy
408:and more). With regards,
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32:Please do not modify it.
869:attack on Holit kibbutz
73:AfDs for this article:
249:Ein HaShlosha massacre
174:edits since nomination
90:Articles for deletion
253:significant coverage
1038:"Merging" is better
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384:: WP:GNG (
261:WP:PRIMARY
257:WP:NOTNEWS
1071:talk page
1006:Abo Yemen
941:Dovidroth
846:currently
823:Oleg Y.’s
807:Roya News
801:Winn News
756:articles;
689:Marokwitz
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541:Marokwitz
523:Oaktree b
372:Spiderone
336:Palestine
37:talk page
1073:or in a
556:Arminden
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355:contribs
170:View log
111:glossary
39:or in a
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932:Oleg Y.
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795:Haaretz
764:below).
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427:Dylanvt
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334:, and
308::Online
269:Dylanvt
213:WP refs
201:scholar
143:protect
138:history
88:New to
1050:gidonb
954:Delete
929:- Per
644:BabbaQ
519:Delete
398:NewsRu
394:Detaly
332:Israel
328:Events
292:step 3
265:WP:POV
185:Google
147:delete
54:Daniel
999:per @
905:Andre
658:about
606:Andre
576:Andre
535:Read
491:here)
346:space
342:Delta
324:Crime
228:JSTOR
189:books
164:views
156:watch
152:links
16:<
1054:talk
1046:Keep
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273:talk
221:FENS
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160:logs
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130:edit
58:talk
50:keep
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