701:- can we please stop saying "D-major natural trumpet"? That trumpet is built in D in terms of its fundamental length but it's not really right to say it is "in" D Major - it's in whatever key you can smash it into and yes, it very often plays in D, but there's just something massively wrong about suggesting that it's IN a key - it's not, it's just "in" a harmonic series which happens in some places to be close to the major scale ... and in other places is not. Sorry, grouchy I know, but I'd hate to see this inaccurate usage gaining any currency. Best wishes to all
576:: This category should be deleted. Almost all pieces ever written using natural trumpet are in either the key of D or the key of C, because those were the only keys for which these trumpets were manufactured (unlike modern valve trumpets, which can play a chromatic scale and therefore in any key). Baroque composers chose their key according to the instrument they had on hand; there was no musically notable difference between the pieces written in C and those in D.
660:'Compositions for D-major natural trumpets' - they are pieces for choir and orchestra, (the latter including D-major natural trumpets, amongst other instruments). The essence here is that the category under discussion is of the formula 'Compositions with ' - if it is accepted as a category, it opens the way to , e.g. 'Compositions with violins' and so forth, which would include virtually every orchestral piece ever written, every string quartet, etc., etc....--
248:
basis for a category (in which, as it happens, none of the articles categorized are about music by
Zelenka). Btw readers of the original discussion (which did not and does not debate this particular category as you claim) can form their own conclusions as to whether or not I had 'little or no support'; and to accuse another editor of 'running away', whether justified or, as in this case, not, is rather bad form.--
1031:
natural by squishing down a C, or maybe up from the B-flat; the A, which lasts about a week, might come down from the B-flat though if I try to play that it sounds like a constipated pregnant llama. Slides perhaps ... slides might be a nice answer. But I promised no lengthy nerdy replies, so I shall now go and slap myself round the head. Several times. Best wishes
1264:: the compositions in the category are not written expressly for trumpets, they are for large ensembles which happen to include trumpets; this is therefore a matter of 'trivial intersection'. 2) There is no demonstrable, (or referencable), quality of such music which makes it a specific category; any more than there would be for
899:
I could live with that too. They are surely in D, just not in D Major! :) Thanks for the other points in reply - it's very interesting but if I reply fully it will get unbearably nerdy. That image is largely correct in terms of the usually written range but not absolutely the physics, and for a start
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that I am trying not to sound tetchy when I say, in the nicest way I possibly can, that I really do know what notes a natural trumpet can play - honest! :) My point, which I obviously failed to explain properly, is that the use of "Major" in this nomenclature is simply wrong. The trumpet plays rather
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is not appropriate, as that category is not a true parent of the category under discussion. The music in the category under discussion is not 'for' trumpet, it is 'with' trumpets - and with other instruments and voices. If categories 'Compositions for' are going to be broadened to imply 'Categories
1295:
As this discussion for a deletion seems to have got somewhat out of hand, with numerous digressions, upmerge proposals, creation proposals and alternatives, I present below a summary of the story so far (without the digressions). Implicitly, some of those who have already expressed opposition to the
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have a name which sounds even faintly as if trumpets are "in D Major". So if it's deleted then my !vote doesn't count, and if it is retained, my !vote is to change the name to either lose "Major" altogether, or stick it unambiguously right next to the pieces, not the instruments. Best wishes to all
1045:
This analysis is not thorough or thought through by all the contributors. I am afraid that knowledge about, or admiration for, natural trumpets is scarcely here or there when it comes to considering the merits of categorization in
Knowledge (XXG), which is what this thread should be discussing. The
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And while we are on octaves, for the sake of precision, in the lowest octave it's neither major or minor, being just an octave (if you can get the fundamental!) . In the next octave it's still neuter, being a fifth, and only in the third octave does a major triad emerge - and that is immediately
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Francis, perhaps you can explain your reference. The one you cite (p. 46 of
Smaczny) contains as far as I can see just a reference to trumpets in D in music by Zelenka. It does not in any way make any scholarly characterization of music in D major for natural trumpets, and therefore provides no
1030:
Yup. Absolutely. And yes, the dominant minor is ALWAYS G minor, unless you are playing
English music! :) As for that Bach ... nasty. I'm not sure what the current wisdom is on it. You cannot easily play it on a nat without some incredible pitch bending skills - you're going to have to get the B
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would be, selecting music in D major only. There is no referential category which sets D major music including trumpets apart from music in other keys (or from music for other instruments which happens to be in the same key). This is just a random category with no encyclopaedic purpose. Btw it
1451:
Francis, the discussion for this category is taking place here. Do not make unfounded accusations of forum shopping. If you want to leave the discussion in a huff, that of course is up to you. If you feel the table is incorrect, please indicate and correct it. Rudeness is not a valid
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What is playable by one musical instrument and not by another is as much a valid categorization distinction as a purely emotional reason (and if given the choice, I'd rather keep the categorization schemes based on the "purely technical" than those based on the "purely emotional").
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which would include e.g. every symphony ever written. The items in this category btw are not specifically music for trumpet, they are works for choir with instrumental accompaniment (including various other instruments). The present category however is even more random than
1517:: the natural trumpets are not in D major, but the old title gives the impression that they are. (Although: would this new title then allow compositions with D natural trumpets that are not in D major? The obvious example is Mozart's Requiem, which is in D minor.)
145:. The discussion there, which was inconclusive, dealt with the inappropriateness or otherwise of the set of 24 categories ]]. I wasn't originally going to bring that topic to CfD, but in the light of the potential enormous expansion of pointless categories which
298:
The recommendable practice after changing your mind would have been to re-enter the discussion place you had left in the first place. Not to re-open the discussion in another place, without even leaving so much as an indicator at the discussion you had left.
627:-- A natural trumpet is only able to produce a limited range of notes. There could in principle be natural trumpets, of a different size in other keys. A D-major natural trumpet would not be able to play some of the notes required by a piece in E major.
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natural trumpets is far too narrow a definition to aid navigation. I'm not sold on the fact that such compositions are a uniquely notable variety, compared to, say, compositions with natural trumpets in E minor. I support an upmerge to the
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in D. So please go ahead and talk about natural or baroque trumpets in D, just not in D Major. I'm worried that we may be talking at cross-purposes here but in the pieces you mention the scores will say D trumpets, not D-major trumpets.
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its lowest octave could sort of go down to the C, at a pinch. That low G, in the octave that contains only the fifth, does get used, for example in "Großer Herr und starker König" in the
Christmas Oratorio. And very nasty it is too! :)
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Assuming, for example's sake, that such dominant minor would be G minor, the instrument with which to play this music would still be a "trumpet in C", not a "trumpet in g" (which doesn't exist). Note that the 10th movement of
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has more movements in D major than it has in B minor, so although the "piece" is in B minor (as designated by its first movement) and thus cannot be placed in the D major category directly, it is correct to place it in a
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This seems like a subdivision too far. I support categorisation of compositions by key. I can also see the use of compositions with natural trumpets. However, this category covering compositions in the key of D simply
1472:: For the record, I am unconcerned as to whether the category continues to exist or not. I see it as neither very important and helpful for the encyclopaedia, nor damaging. The only strong view I hold is that if it
283:
Dear
Francis, not even your forceful personality can command me never to change my mind :-) But in the present case, I never made any comments on this category one way or another before posting this CfD
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any of the minor keys (there's no way a natural trumped can be pitched in a minor key, physically not possible). For the other major keys, hardly enough material to fill a category. So, we're talking
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limitations, and would thus limit the key signature possibilities for the piece as a whole. The vast majority of instruments are not designated by a key (a "piano in C" is an oxymoron). For
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be suitable parent categories in the event we can agree on the sustainability of such category (see remarks about both proposed parent categories given in the discussion above)?
1909:-- affiliation to an international body is not notable. The individual organisations should be categorised as to the field in which they operate - as anti-cult organisations.
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Very few "membership" cats are defining and this one is no exception: membership in this federation is absolutely not defining for any of the organizations listed.
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the designated key would usually be C or D ("The vast majority of baroque trumpet parts were written for a natural instrument pitched in C or D", see article), and
778:
794:); When playing it in any other key usually some notes would be missing from the scale altogether (i.e. simply can't be played by the instrument in any octave). --
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Well no, the key designates the instrument that can be used for certain compositions, and that's how these instruments are named as a well-established practice:
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Re. Bach's "nasty" movement (for the trumpet): I think the composer gave the answer himself – when he transposed the entire piece to D major 10 years later (
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There's a tricky moment or two in some
Bohemian music where it's written in the dominant minor. But it's an odd, special effect and your point is well made.
580:, this case is substantially different from the case of the category "Pieces in the key of ", because there are those who claim that composers saw different
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As to the content of the matter, the scholar reference that sets compositions "with natural trumpets in D major" apart was given in the other discussion:
1431:
Seeing that Smerus can't even count correctly, I decided to continue my part of this talk in the place where it started before the forum shopping, i.e.
1127:) he gave the solo of the 10th movement to the oboes instead of the trumpet as one of a very few changes to the orchestration of the piece. And for the
184:... If having second thoughts about running away from a discussion with little or no support for your position then forum shopping is not the way to go.
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admission of the category 'Music with ' would indeed pave the way for 30-odd categories of any music with a particular instrument. The category, e.g.
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if people feel that is a useful one to have. A much better way of subdividing material from the key category would be by genre (as tried at
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is even more egregious. There is nothing intrinsically that different pieces of music, which employ a natural trumpet in D, have in common
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929:"20 or 30 instruments x 24 keys applied to virtually every piece of music ever written" – no, of course not. Only wind instruments with a
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article), which has the major triad in the lowest octave the trumpet can supposedly play (whether the image is correct I cannot say). --
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category (Oculi, Ravpapa) may also object to other proposals but I have not assumed this. Please correct me if I have made any errors.
564:). These types of categories will gather articles with a much higher relevance to each other than the model of the nominated category.
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could unleash (20 or 30 instruments x 24 keys applied to virtually every piece of music ever written), editors may care to comment on
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2131:-- The obvious way to populate this would be with people with that surname, but we do not allow categorisation by shared name.
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OK, so this is a category without any valid parents, in which case it is ridiculous rather than trivial and should be deleted.
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BWV 232 in the context of
Catholic Mass settings in Dresden, 1729–1733". In Tomita, Yo; Leaver, Robin A.; Smaczny, Jan (eds.).
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can only play a limited set of the notes of the scale of the key it is named after in the lowest octave (basically only the
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composed around the same time as the BWV 243 D major version), he let the trumpets only play in the D major movements. --
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and its sub-categories, and if it is thought appropriate I will bring that set of categories here for discussion.
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significance in different keys. That is not the case here - the keys were chosen for purely technical reasons. --
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598:"A purely technical reason" seems excellent as a categorization distinction, or are you proposing we get rid of
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which recommends to always add "major" or "minor" for a key signature (which is not what we need to do here).
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topped off with a flattened seventh ... but don't worry, I don't want to call it a D7 trumpet either! :)
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1926:-- not defining for the members (listed or potential). Any notable members should be categorised as
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despite the remarks given about these I suppose these are the most viable parent categories, so, yes
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would be highly dubious. Acceptance of this category would also open the way for categories such
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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115:. Any music involving trumpets earlier than about 1800 was written for natural trumpet (see
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Category:European
Federation of Centres of Research and Information on Sectarianism members
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Category:European
Federation of Centres of Research and Information on Sectarianism members
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Rather needless category that contributes nothing to the person it is suppose to be about.
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music/Archive_60#Categories:Compositions_in_.5BKey.5D
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734:"Bach Magnificat in D & E flat BWV 243 & 243a / (Novello edition ed. N. Jenkins)"
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per above and nom, a pretty pointless category that will only ever contain one article.
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PS, for future reference, in the mean while the broader discussion has been archived at
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appears (from the discussion there) that the category was created in a fit of pique at
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1058:- it's, encyclopaedically, a trivial intersection. Consider e.g. by analogy a category
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would be OK then, for me it is anyways. Suppose I was a bit overzealous in applying
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Although I personally am not too happy about 'Composition in ' categories, I would
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yes, takes only someone to put the time in it to start, and start filling, the cat
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1554:- and have adjusted the table to show this - perhaps someone can now close this?
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Categories:Compositions_in_.5BKey.5D
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Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Categories:Compositions_in_.5BKey.5D
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trumpets required for the piece (the other movements with trumpets being in E
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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seems possible too, but that's where I would stop for now per the above. --
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266:), for which Zelenka (and Bach, and Caldara, etc.) are only examples.
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would be nice, consensus appears to be nearing unanimity. A similar
1070:. The next step would be when some bright spark starts categories
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This is a cat that was created quite recently, I first noticed it
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Unfortunately for your proposal, the pieces in this category are
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This is the correct forum for this particular item of shopping.
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would be mind-boggling. But the same principle applies for
233:– p. 46 middle of the page is what you'd be looking for. --
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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on the grounds already expressed. 1) This is covered by
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Well, don't say you'll leave it alone, if you don't. --
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Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D major
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Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D major
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Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D major
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Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D major
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Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D major
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Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D major
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In order to resolve this situation, I am prepared to
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be appropriate (examples of includable compositions:
2163:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1990:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1962:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1826:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1798:). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Category:Compositions with D-major natural trumpets
1746:; don't recall why I didn't CfD it at the time. --
1367:Category:Compositions for D major natural trumpets
629:Category:Compositions for D-major natural trumpets
478:Agreed - then I go back to my earlier request to
872:Knowledge (XXG):Manual of Style/Music#Accidentals
1579:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in C
1575:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
1551:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
1514:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
1274:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in C
1258:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
1190:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in C
1172:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
868:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
1614:Noted, and I am now closing as we are agreed.--
344:is not particularly large (30 or so articles),
779:Magnificat BWV 243, edited by Arnold Schering
382:including' they become I think meaningless.--
141:, in which case it may also be an example of
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1000:has a trumpet solo in C minor, which is the
602:and subcategories, while "purely technical"?
1060:Category:Paintings including the colour red
554:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets
505:category of that category, as indicated. --
496:Re. "category without any valid parents" –
350:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets
130:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets
121:Category:Compositions with natural trumpets
419:as above as a resolution of this category.
1064:Category:Music with natural trumpets in D
560:) or by classical composition type (e.g.
346:Category:Compositions for natural trumpet
201:. Cambridge University Press. pp. 39–53.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion
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961:categories here, not "20 or 30 x 24". --
356:is not otherwise divided by instrument.
1404:Compositions with natural trumpets in C
1387:Compositions with natural trumpets in D
1080:Category:Music with clarinets in E flat
1076:Category:Music with clarinets in B flat
631:would probably fulfill the objective.
1103:Category:Music with scordatura violins
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1166:What are the thoughts about renaming
558:Category:Jazz compositions in D major
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191:Stockigt, Janice B. (2013). "Bach's
182:"OK I will leave well enough alone"
1105:would make perfect sense to me. --
1072:Category:Music with clarinets in A
176:– the issue is being discussed at
125:Category:Compositions with violins
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1997:The result of the discussion was:
1833:The result of the discussion was:
1658:The result of the discussion was:
1338:Category:Compositions in D major
1183:Category:Compositions for trumpet
498:Mass for the Dresden court (Bach)
436:Mass for the Dresden court (Bach)
398:Category:Compositions for trumpet
379:Category:Compositions for trumpet
342:Category:Compositions for trumpet
1569:Tx, closure on recategorisation
1256:the renaming of the category to
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600:Category:Video games by platform
550:Category:Compositions in D major
440:Category:Compositions in D major
354:Category:Compositions in D major
336:Category:Compositions in D major
139:WikiProject Classical Music Talk
1272:the creation of a new category
1268:. For the same reason I would
777:I in D; Tromba II, III in D" (
113:trivial intersection criterion
1:
1624:13:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
1609:12:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
1591:12:33, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
1564:10:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
1542:10:39, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
1527:13:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
1476:continue to exist, it should
198:Exploring Bach's B-minor Mass
172:and suggest speedy close per
30:
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2124:22:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
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2073:08:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
2007:00:07, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
1940:04:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1919:22:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
1900:13:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
1843:00:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
1776:07:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1759:15:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
1733:15:37, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
1668:00:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
1506:14:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
1496:Updated table accordingly.--
1491:08:30, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
1462:06:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
1447:08:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
1426:09:06, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
1286:19:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
1248:21:20, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1145:21:20, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1115:21:38, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1096:20:04, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1041:18:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
1026:14:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
991:13:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
971:10:50, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
910:18:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
895:13:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
863:13:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
836:13:09, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
804:09:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
711:08:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
688:10:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
670:07:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
641:22:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
618:11:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
594:13:46, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
569:11:57, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
515:11:06, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
492:14:51, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
474:11:46, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
460:07:52, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
431:06:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
410:20:36, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
392:20:19, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
377:, I suggest that upmerge to
366:19:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
309:09:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
294:14:54, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
279:07:52, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
258:20:33, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
243:18:49, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
163:17:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
151:Category:Compositions by key
1266:Category:Music with violins
1052:Category:Music with violins
1048:Category:Music with violins
821:a lot in D Major but it is
442:, as the composition is in
2180:
1677:Category:Houari Boumédiène
1630:Category:Houari Boumédiène
1532:Updated table accordingly.
881:(an image enclosed in the
2016:Category:Hassan (surname)
1969:Category:Hassan (surname)
739:. neiljenkins.info/. p. 5
2152:Please do not modify it.
1979:Please do not modify it.
1951:Please do not modify it.
1815:Please do not modify it.
1787:Please do not modify it.
1640:Please do not modify it.
1354:Compositions for trumpet
400:should not be a parent.
119:). Thus even a category
931:"brass" type mouthpiece
726:trumpets; BWV 243a - 3
333:the 2 parent categories
262:It's about the region (
2052:Nominator's rationale:
1888:Nominator's rationale:
1713:Nominator's rationale:
732:Jenkins, Neil (2000).
446:(with trumpets in the
438:cannot be upmerged to
396:Yes, you are correct;
109:Nominator's rationale:
1330:User:Francis Schonken
352:) doesn't exist, and
722:"BWV 243 requires 3
1385:Rename to category
1374:, Francis Schonken
1004:minor key for the E
879:File:Harmseries.jpg
877:I was referring to
1549:support rename to
1512:Support rename to
1391:Francis Schonken,
1372:User:Peterkingiron
816:Thanks Francis. I
674:I could live with
2071:
1415:
1414:
1408:Francis Schonken
1393:User:Double sharp
1343:User:Sillyfolkboy
207:978-1-107-00790-1
51:
50:
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2154:
2120:
2114:
2108:
2088:Inter&anthro
2070:
2068:
2057:
2045:
2044:
2012:Propose deleting
1981:
1953:
1881:
1880:
1848:Propose deleting
1817:
1789:
1750:
1725:Inter&anthro
1706:
1705:
1673:Propose deleting
1642:
1601:Francis Schonken
1583:Francis Schonken
1439:Francis Schonken
1402:Create category
1299:
1291:Summary (so far)
1240:Francis Schonken
1228:rename, per DBaK
1188:Would a similar
1137:Francis Schonken
1107:Francis Schonken
1018:Francis Schonken
1015:
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1009:
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963:Francis Schonken
951:natural trumpets
887:Francis Schonken
796:Francis Schonken
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680:Francis Schonken
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301:Francis Schonken
271:Francis Schonken
235:Francis Schonken
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69:Propose deleting
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2161:deletion review
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2107:George Edward C
2106:
2066:
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2018:
2014:
2004:Good Ol’factory
1988:deletion review
1977:
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1949:
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1840:Good Ol’factory
1824:deletion review
1813:
1807:
1802:
1796:deletion review
1785:
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1679:
1675:
1665:Good Ol’factory
1649:deletion review
1638:
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1215:Missa Cellensis
1129:Mass in B minor
1062:. The case for
1012:
1011:
1006:
1005:
883:natural trumpet
788:natural trumpet
759:
749:
742:
740:
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450:of D major). --
417:support upmerge
222:
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135:this discussion
117:Natural trumpet
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947:key signature
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1416:
1325:User:Ravpapa
1294:
1269:
1253:
1251:
1237:
1224:My answers:
1223:
1213:
1161:
1067:
1001:
958:
954:
926:
822:
817:
786:Note that a
743:23 September
741:. Retrieved
730:trumpets." (
727:
723:
698:
657:
624:
581:
573:
544:
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535:
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448:relative key
416:
414:
332:
328:
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197:
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174:WP:FORUMSHOP
169:
108:
68:
2084:WP:SMALLCAT
2055:WP:SMALLCAT
1717:WP:SMALLCAT
1452:argument.--
1352:Upmerge to
1336:Upmerge to
421:See below--
1892:Randykitty
1766:per nom.--
1365:Rename to
1321:User:Oculi
1305:In favour
1162:Questions:
1133:first part
1016:major). --
939:tone holes
937:, valves,
55:January 24
43:January 25
38:January 23
2157:talk page
1984:talk page
1956:talk page
1820:talk page
1792:talk page
1721:WP:OCEPON
1645:talk page
1395:, Smerus
1379:User:DBak
1302:Proposal
1068:musically
762:|ref=harv
225:|ref=harv
216:cite book
2159:or in a
1986:or in a
1958:or in a
1822:or in a
1794:or in a
1647:or in a
1377:Smerus,
1319:Smerus,
1308:Against
1054:as with
1002:relative
998:BWV 243a
760:Invalid
753:cite web
543:and not
223:Invalid
143:WP:POINT
20: |
2029:history
1932:Tgeairn
1865:history
1690:history
1470:Comment
1411:Smerus
1313:Delete
1125:BWV 243
818:promise
781:, p. 1)
699:Comment
586:Ravpapa
582:musical
578:Francis
562:Cantata
536:Upmerge
444:B minor
329:Upmerge
86:history
2129:Delete
2101:Delete
2080:Delete
2000:delete
1924:Delete
1907:Delete
1836:delete
1768:Smerus
1764:Delete
1751:rose64
1740:Delete
1661:delete
1616:Smerus
1556:Smerus
1534:Smerus
1498:Smerus
1454:Smerus
1418:Smerus
1278:Smerus
1270:oppose
1254:oppose
1218:,...)?
1210:K. 259
1206:K. 258
1202:K. 257
1198:K. 262
1194:K. 220
1177:Would
1088:Smerus
935:crooks
775:Tromba
728:E flat
662:Smerus
625:Rename
574:Delete
484:Smerus
480:delete
423:Smerus
384:Smerus
324:Delete
286:Smerus
264:Saxony
250:Smerus
170:Oppose
155:Smerus
111:Fails
2067:Talk
2061:Tavix
2037:watch
2033:links
1873:watch
1869:links
1698:watch
1694:links
955:never
945:have
823:built
792:triad
737:(PDF)
466:Oculi
402:Oculi
375:Oculi
358:Oculi
193:Missa
94:watch
90:links
46:: -->
16:<
2137:talk
2113:Talk
2092:talk
2082:per
2041:logs
2025:talk
2021:edit
1936:talk
1915:talk
1896:talk
1877:logs
1861:talk
1857:edit
1772:talk
1755:talk
1744:here
1729:talk
1719:and
1702:logs
1686:talk
1682:edit
1620:talk
1605:talk
1587:talk
1560:talk
1538:talk
1523:talk
1502:talk
1487:talk
1483:DBaK
1474:does
1458:talk
1443:talk
1437:. --
1422:talk
1282:talk
1244:talk
1181:and
1141:talk
1111:talk
1092:talk
1078:and
1037:talk
1033:DBaK
1022:talk
987:talk
983:DBaK
967:talk
943:keys
906:talk
902:DBaK
891:talk
859:talk
855:DBaK
832:talk
828:DBaK
800:talk
766:help
745:2014
707:talk
703:DBaK
684:talk
666:talk
637:talk
614:talk
590:talk
541:with
511:talk
488:talk
470:talk
456:talk
427:talk
406:talk
388:talk
362:talk
348:(or
305:talk
290:talk
275:talk
254:talk
239:talk
229:help
203:ISBN
159:talk
98:logs
82:talk
78:edit
35:<
1749:Red
1478:not
1276:.--
1170:to
1086:.--
959:two
941:or
927:Re.
658:not
566:SFB
545:for
503:sub
482:.--
331:to
137:at
22:Log
2139:)
2116:–
2110:–
2094:)
2086:.
2064:|
2039:|
2035:|
2031:|
2027:|
2023:|
2002:.
1938:)
1917:)
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1875:|
1871:|
1867:|
1863:|
1859:|
1838:.
1774:)
1757:)
1731:)
1723:.
1700:|
1696:|
1692:|
1688:|
1684:|
1663:.
1622:)
1607:)
1599:--
1589:)
1573:→
1562:)
1540:)
1525:)
1504:)
1489:)
1460:)
1445:)
1424:)
1323:,
1284:)
1252:I
1246:)
1238:--
1212:,
1208:,
1204:,
1200:,
1196:,
1143:)
1113:)
1094:)
1074:,
1039:)
1024:)
989:)
969:)
908:)
893:)
861:)
834:)
802:)
757::
755:}}
751:{{
709:)
686:)
678:--
668:)
639:)
616:)
608:--
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513:)
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458:)
429:)
408:)
390:)
364:)
307:)
299:--
292:)
284:--
277:)
256:)
241:)
220::
218:}}
214:{{
161:)
96:|
92:|
88:|
84:|
80:|
2135:(
2090:(
2043:)
2019:(
1934:(
1913:(
1894:(
1879:)
1855:(
1770:(
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1727:(
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1280:(
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1174:?
1139:(
1131:(
1109:(
1090:(
1035:(
1020:(
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1007:♭
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