523:
belongs to plural families. Writing "The
Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo is colourful," looks plain odd. There is a clear way around this ("The logo of the Department for Children, Schools and Families is colourful.") But in more complex (or just different) sentences this might be an unappetising formula. So if an apostrophe is the right way to go, where should it go? Thanks.
145:
There must be stacks of similar examples but I'm racking my brain to think of one. In the classical world, there's no need to disambiguate "guitar", because works are almost always written for acoustic guitars, and that's the default assumption. Occasionally, composers include an electric guitar in
758:
Thanks all for the comments, and sorry if my original question caused some confusion. I have asked colleagues here what they would say (out loud) and almost all - save one oddball - said "families" not "families's", as it were. So I'll take that as my answer. Of course, in writing, the convention
477:
3) My ultimate goal is to investigate the frequencies of ALL initial letters in ALL languages used on the internet. Sounds like a BIG project right? But maybe there is a way to arrive at an approximation for wikipedia... ie what are the most common
Initial letters in ALL articles on wikipedia in
545:
In formal writing you would avoid it and use the "of" formation. In informal usage you can do it exactly as you suggested. It only looks odd because you don't often form possessives of phrases that long. But possessives of phrases that long's formation is just like possessives of anything else.
522:
There is a UK Government
Department called the Department for Children, Schools and Families. What is the correct way of showing this in the possessive? Is it acceptable to write e.g. "The Department for Children, Schools and Families' logo is colourful"? This makes it 'look' as though the logo
427:
to one or two letters -- and Gaius was abbreviated to "C" (for reasons having to do with the early history of the Latin alphabet), which has given rise to the pseudo-form "Caius" (something which is pretty much guaranteed to be bogus wherever it occurs, other than in the name "Gonville and Caius",
112:
Certainly, both "electric guitar" and "acoustic guitar" are neologisms. But I think it would be useful to have a word to denote the neologism ("electric guitar") that caused the retronym to come into being. I looked around and didn't find any such word. Before I coined one myself, I wanted to make
590:
The possessive does not belong to "Families", it belongs to "Department for
Children, Schools and Families"; just as in "the King of Spain's daughter", it is the King who has a daughter, not Spain. The questioner's problem is that this seems less obvious for the longer example with a plural final
551:
Since possessives of singulars ending in S can take either a 's ending or a bare apostrophe (boss' and boss's are both correct), and "The
Department of..." is singular, another choice is to put 's at the end: "The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo..." Personally, even though I
222:
I don't know what they're called either but I can certainly think of two examples used in Texas (where I grew up): "snow skiing" (to distinguish it from "water skiing", which is often called simply "skiing" there) and "hot tea" (to distinguish it from "ice tea", which is often called simply "tea"
108:
When the term "electric guitar" became nearly as popular as the original unmodified word "guitar", the term "acoustic guitar" emerged because "guitar" (unmodified) was considered ambiguous. "Acoustic guitar" is labeled the retronym. What is "electric guitar" labeled?
977:, which in particular implies that the description given in the image posted by Wavelength is wrong, it is an outdated attempt by somebody to decipher the logo, and should not be taken seriously. A discussion of errors in the logo can be found in
820:). Neither fulfills the demand that it be "a symbol used for the first letter of Knowledge in a language or character set", as Knowledge is called ויקימדיה in Hebrew and װיקיפּעדיע in Yiddish, both of which start with the letter ו (
313:
When a newly fashionable word, a loan word or something is used, the normal word in a culture suddenly looks old fashioned: chill-out for ruhen, Kids for Kinder, Kietz for
Stadtteil. There might be a linguistic term for
328:
Thanks all. I'm more confident that there is no existing word, so I think I'm going to coin one on my blog. See my similar question (and the two neologisms that are my current front runners) at alt.english.usage:
146:
an orchestra, and in that case it's spelled out. Electronic keyboards have become so common in popular music that I wonder if people ever feel the need to refer to a traditional piano as an "acoustic piano".
1044:ما هو الفرق بين السماعي الثقيل و البشرف ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ من فضلكم تجاوبوني بسرعة ايضا اريد تعريف كل من الدف و الرق و المزهر ان لم اخطأ في كتابتهم ..... واذا هنالك فرق بينهم ما هو الرجاء الاجابة باقصي سرعة شكرا شكرا'
877:
Japanese ワィ would be pronounced 'wai', but this character combination (with the small イ) is impossible. If the イ was normal size it would be 'wai'. The
Knowledge one is purely fictional. 'Wi' should be
859:
Continuing with the
Semitic examples, the symbol labelled by a يا ligature in a fancy font actually shows just ي, and Arabic Knowledge "ويكيبيديا" starts with a و. Similarly for Persian (fa). —
481:
Anyway, not sure if there is someone out there who can help with this or knows the answers, but I thought I would try as these are some interesting questions you may be able to shed light on.
66:
45:
51:
478:
ALL languages used on wikipedia and their frequencies? This would provide a data set for
Knowledge which would be interesting and might reflect the frequencies on the web in general...
1105:
The section header is "Music" (al-muusiiqaa), but the question is not easy for me to understand, and Google
Translate doesn't help too much (except of course, the final two words, شكرا
914:
And Occitan does not use "o", but "w". This makes the Norman Knowledge (in Jèrriais dialect), the only Knowledge (so far mentioned) to start with O (in the form of the digraph "Ou").
59:
55:
471:
1) Is it true Knowledge does not have info on the frequency of initial letters In English (ie I would like to initial frequencies of ALL 26 letters not just the top 10 in English) ?
651:
Rewriting to sidestep such a problem is usually (though not always) an option. Nevertheless the problem still demands a solution, if only for theoretical completeness. The article
998:
Apropos of nothing... but it strikes me as strange that no-one has ever seemed to have pointed out the striking similarity between the Knowledge logo and the album design for
474:
2) You article has some interesting comparisons on general letter frequencies across several languages, any idea where I might find a similar comparison for initial letters?
726:
have to supply appropriate punctuation! The apostrophe in English is not omnipotent, and some cases have no comfortable solution. Why should we expect it to be otherwise?
954:
330:
85:
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
25:
627:
so the convention seems indeed to be to form the possessive of the noun phrase by forming the possesive of its final noun. This more-or-less matches
396:
465:
Start of Word Letter Frequencies Letter t a i s o c m f p w Freq 0.1594 0.155 0.0823 0.0775 0.0712 0.0597 0.0426 0.0408 0.04 0.0382
448:
I am interested in finding out the frequency of initial letters of the alphabet used in words in various languages worldwide on the internet.
287:
Going back to the world of music, I once heard someone on TV being asked what their hobbies and interests were. He said "Oh, I really love
999:
766:
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Also, the symbol labelled as В does not remotely look like one. It seems to me to come from some Indian or other south Asian script. —
718:
To sidesteppers I issue this challenge: suppose that you had simply to write from dictation, without any alteration, the spoken words
788:
37:
21:
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In compound nouns and noun phrases the final element usually takes the plural form. If plural compounds pose problems, opt for
514:
Calling all linguists... Does anyone have any thoughts, leads, or feedback on this question? Inquiring minds want to know...
407:
Answered on the Humanities desk. It means "Publii filius" and "Lucii nepos", i.e. "son of Publius" and "grandson of Lucius".
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561:"The Department for Children, Schools and Families' logo is colourful"? This makes it 'look' as though the logo belongs to
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http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/b5af8adbc86cbaae/20261279ee832707?#20261279ee832707
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How remiss of me, Noetica; of course that was what I meant! Maybe I was just coming out of a hypnotic trance. :) --
628:
572:"Families" is already plural. Adding an apostrophe to the end makes it a possessive, not a sort of super-plural. --
174:
Musical Concerto numerically No. 3 for Aurally Acoustic Instrumental Piano and Combined Musical Instrumental Orchestra
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455:) BUT this only covers the general frequency of the letters NOT the frequency of initial letters in English.
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is a realistic option. Written form should follow spoken form, and for that reason I reject also
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normally use the 's form, I think this looks hideous. --Anonymous, 16:47 UTC, October 21, 2008.
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176:? I epistemically know it well enough, but approvingly like his numerical number 2 better.
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Knowledge starts with "v" in one dialect, and with "ou" in another dialect (a digraph).
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electric g. is the top neo log, acoustic g. the bottom neo log? terrible joke, i know--
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where it's actually just a fancy-shmancy pseudo-Latinate way of spelling "Keyes")...
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462:) which provides general frequencies and also the 10 most frequent initial letters:
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http://pages.central.edu/emp/LintonT/classes/spring01/cryptography/letterfreq.html
104:
What does one call the term that causes the emergence of a complementary retronym?
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What do the initials "P.f." and "L.n." stand for in Latin names? For example:
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Some information is available for English, for example on wikipedia here (
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deals pretty thoroughly with these matters, I think. I cannot agree that
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Frequency of Initial Letters of the Alphabet worldwide & on wikipedia
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of referring to Gvt departments by initials - so "DCSF" - helps too.
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148:(I'm just waiting for the day when someone refers to Rachmaninoff's
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I just realized that there is a detailed discussion of the logo on
113:
sure that there wasn't one already out there. So I am asking here.
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670:
Here is an interesting case. Suppose there were a band called
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Taking a slightly simpler example of the same type, Google
172:
JoO, do you mean artistic musical composer Rachmaninoff's
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meta:International logo contest/Final logo variants/Nohat
79:
Welcome to the Knowledge Language Reference Desk Archives
657:
The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo
843:
15:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC) It could be Kannada (kn):
152:
as "Concerto No. 3 for Acoustic Piano and Orchestra by
382:(None of those articles say anything, by the way.) —
961:, the user who created it (no longer very active).
484:If so I would be very curious to know the answers.
785:Are all the symbols correct on the Wiki globe?
367:P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Scipio Africanus
291:, I have it on all the time <yada yada: -->
601:Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers’ first album
8:
1076:Perhaps. But can you re-phrase the question?
812:Apparently not. The symbol labelled as ה (
621:Popular Music (Cambridge University Press)
453:http://en.wikipedia.org/Frequency_analysis
423:The Romans had a way of abbreviating many
607:Bob Marley and the Wailers' first album
49:
36:
694:. Which would we say, and write? This:
613:Siouxsie And The Banshees' first album
598:and pick professional-quality matches:
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362:L(ucius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Dolabella
357:P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Lentulus
43:
7:
1000:Do It Yourself (The Seahorses album)
619:Sioux and The Banshees’ first album
1041:لو سمحتو ضروري اعرف جواب هذا السؤال
936:Knowledge was shut down years ago.
377:P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. Pn. Scipio
705:Theirs and Ours's new lead guitar.
458:It does refer to a web page here (
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1016:Hmmmm ... very interesting. --
979:meta:Errors in the Knowledge logo
816:) on the chart actually shows ר (
697:Theirs and Ours' new lead guitar.
951:Image talk:Knowledge-logo-en.png
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713:Theirs and Ours new lead guitar.
690:Another one, with a band called
720:Theirs and Ours new lead guitar
661:my boss' demands are reasonable
557:I'm not sure what you mean by:
518:A particular apostrophe problem
372:P(ublius) Ventidius P.f. Bassus
1:
983:Image:Knowledge-logo thue.png
468:From this several questions:
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1119:03:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
1109:previously discussed here).
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296:when I'm in the mood". --
292:. I also like listening to
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685:Mommy and Me's new drummer.
629:the Chicago Manual of Style
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663:unless one would actually
603:Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
677:Mommy and My new drummer.
674:. We would not want say:
981:, and a proposed fix at
18:Knowledge:Reference desk
596:"and the * first album"
87:current reference desk
896:For added info: The
781:Symbols on Wiki globe
385:The Man in Question
154:Sergei Rachmaninoff
975:WP:Knowledge logos
150:3rd Piano Concerto
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1049:—Preceding
847:ಕಿಪೀಡಿಯ. —
761:—Preceding
525:—Preceding
490:—Preceding
409:Adam Bishop
963:jnestorius
938:jnestorius
880:ChokinBako
796:Wavelength
653:Apostrophe
644:jnestorius
425:praenomina
250:ice hockey
116:Thanks. --
99:October 21
67:October 22
46:October 20
631:, §7.25:
398:(forðung)
260:. Hokay?)
223:there). —
50:<<
1111:AnonMoos
1063:contribs
1051:unsigned
1034:الموسيقى
1018:JackofOz
932:And the
763:unsigned
591:element.
574:JackofOz
527:unsigned
504:contribs
492:unsigned
430:AnonMoos
298:JackofOz
240:Compare
205:JackofOz
160:JackofOz
26:Language
24: |
22:Archives
20: |
1107:shukran
1094:oetica!
1004:Nanonic
934:Klingon
878:'ウィ'.--
744:oetica!
546:(Grin.)
390:(sprec)
314:that?--
278:oetica!
256:. (See
194:oetica!
89:pages.
56:October
722:. You
496:Careyz
258:Hockey
254:hockey
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