Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 45

7216:(instead of complicating the base case, editors should keep the base case simple, and then only in exceptional cases fully explain why the possible case of only 1 item is notable or requires warning). In the specific case of this documentation where no author is specified and an unknown Staff byline is used we simply cannot know the unknown, it might be one or many writers but it doesn't matter. In addition this is specifically a wikimarkup comment for the benefit of other editors, to indicate that the author was intentionally left blank because a staff byline was used. 7186:

culture-specific orders (given name first for most Western countries, surname first but no commas for most Eastern countries), then readers would have to know much more about local cultures to understand that "Kim" and "Montarcé" are surnames, and that "van" is not a middle name. (It's not perfect — for instance readers might still not know that Kim's whole first name is Il Sung, and that it does not make sense to separate those pieces into a first and middle name — but it's better than the alternatives.) —

1358:. However, we don't need this many citation formats. We should be moving toward consistency, not chaos. No one would remember that table of codes, nor use them consistently. We shouldn't have a name output formatting option that isn't either CS1/CS2 as defaults, depending on the template used, or output that is required (not just optional) by a particular major off-site citation style – one that can be reliably sourced in detail and as in current use, e.g. listed in 31: 1503:

Vancouver, but for most of the time that citation templates have existed, they did not produce the same appearance as any external style guide. Thus, the question of whether it would be acceptable to change an article that didn't use citation templates and consistently followed an external style to templates that produced the same appearance never arose. It isn't at all clear that such a switch would be accepted.

2774: 6817:{{cite web|url=http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1963/03/05/page/B11/article/irving-s-olds-u-s-steel-war-chief-is-dead|archive-url=https://www.newspapers.com/image/374753268/?terms=irving%2Bolds%2Bdead%2Bchicago|archive-date=2018|title=IRVING S. OLDS, U. S. STEEL WAR CHIEF, IS DEAD (March 5, 1963)|author=|date=|work=chicagotribune.com|accessdate=17 April 2017}} {{subscription required}} 3144:(whichever they might be). Not going to do that except to say: the citation style used by any particular academic journal has no bearing on how cs1|2 render citations at en.wiki; has no bearing on how the community here have decided that cs1|2 shall execute those renderings; has no bearing on what the community here have decided are the appropriate uses of the template parameters. 5957:

first name if someone so desires. Finally the use of meta data is over rated. Knowledge is not a reliable source and that includes bibliographic information. If possible, one really should avoid copying citation meta data from one article to the next because the data my be corrupted or inaccurate through honest mistakes or vandalism. It is much better to harvest a

3055:

damn page of a 50-page journal article to find the one page with the one sentence that supports our article; that's just cruel. There are others here who believe that there is some requirement to identify a journal-article's entire page range whenever citing a journal article. We have never seen eye-to-eye on this. There is no such requirement

6846:{{cite news|url=https://chicagotribune.newspapers.com/image/374753268/?terms=IRVING%2BS.%2BOLDS%2C%2BU.%2BS.%2BSTEEL%2BWAR%2BCHIEF%2C%2BIS%2BDEAD|title=Irving S. Olds, U. S. steel war chief, is dead |author=|date=March 5, 1963|work=Chicago Tribune|accessdate=10 August 2018|subscription=yes |p=49 |via=Newspapers.com}} 2382:(not just optionally permits) a variance from it, and that citation style is used consistently in the article (and even then we might have a consensus discussion to change it). Second, we don't need to throw errors for trivial problems, except maybe in preview mode. Better to have a cleanup category and may be 6090:). DOIs created before the character set was restricted are still supported..." If we tighten the doi validity test to accept only dois compliant with the post-2k8 standard, we risk falsely catching pre-2k8 dois that use the previously allowed character set (which the current standard does not clearly define). 2507:"Option codes in the nature of patterns would be too complicated, and way too intimidating" quite the opposite. They make it crystal clear what the pattern is, and are completely optional. Don't what to deal with them? Don't use them. They won't be used in the majority of cases but will make gnome life much, 5270:<span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Title&rft.aulast=Ceesdale&rft.aufirst=AB&rft.au=Effly%2C+DE&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+45" class="db-WjM5ODg": --> 5255:<span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Title&rft.aulast=Ceesdale&rft.aufirst=AB&rft.au=Effly%2C+DE&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1%2FArchive+45" class="db-WjM5ODg": --> 4043:

In notes, where reference is usually to a particular passage in a book or journal, only the page numbers pertaining to that passage are given. In bibliographies, no page numbers are given for books cited as a whole; for easier location of journal articles or for chapeters or other sections of a book,

3394:

Thanks for the link, but I don't see any instance of what we're talking about in that paper (admittedly I didn't check every citation with a page range though). Not only that, it even uses parenthetical referencing. Could you point to an example of a citation in which the page range of only a portion

2492:

As a general rule: option codes in the nature of patterns would be too complicated, and way too intimidating for most editors. Also, "FirstLast" would be better than "First Last" (because the included space makes it look like two values). But like I said, name order should not be a formatting option.

1261:

A maintenance cycle. Not a new-features cycle (this is a new feature). (You'll note that the talk page there says exactly this.) And as for the maintenance, the code developed 6 months ago still has yet to be deployed. Making Citoid aware of the rest of the text on the page isn't in its scope. Nor is

7136:

Right now, the citation templates like the cite book template prefers to place the surname before the first name, eg. "Smith, John". I'd rather it be "John Smith". The reason is that some names have unusual orderings. For example, Korean names place the family name first (eg Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong

6572:

is too ambiguous for my taste; the parameter name should indicate what it applies to, ideally, and this one is just for arXiv and Bibcode, not dates in general. See other discussions on this page about the difficulty of naming parameters and the confusion that it causes when editors misinterpret the

2832:

I also have a question regarding the suggestions list: the module documentation says the main list is only semi-protected. Does that mean we are invited to make a change there without sandboxing it first and waiting for the general cadence of rollouts? Or should that be full/template-protected given

1771:

If this can be mostly automated, but a human needs to decide which correction to apply to which citation, maybe someone could write some sort of script or app where the wikitext is parsed, the correction possibilities put next to each citation, and the editor checks which correction to apply to each

1366:

nor obsolete. That is, if the citation style permits either "Chung, Margaret T." or "Chung, M. T." then we need no option to truncate to the latter (unless that abbreviated form is a hard requirement in some other cite style ). We have no editorial or reader interest in truncating the name data if

5956:

has been adopted by several thousand journals. It doesn't cause problems for the readers of these journals, so why would it cause problems for readers of Knowledge articles? Third, most citations, at least the more recent ones, contain links to the original source, so it it is easy to determine the

2552:

I tend to agree with Kanguola that the templates are already too confusing to use manually (and if you can't use the templates without having additional software to help, something is wrong). The cryptic abbreviated parameter names do not help. But, taking a step back to look at the bigger picture:

1102:

is because Citoid, and its engineers, didn't want to fight with date formatting. I would oppose a spread of "X-format" parameters, since no need has been demonstrated here and adds a significant deviation in formatting. (We have the Vancouver formatting to draw Vancouverites trivially into the fold

3598:

is an abomination. Especially if it's only cited once, in a citation where you also need to specify a page range for the whole work (like a journal article or book chapter) my usual technique would be to add a note about where in the work to find the specific contribution, as text after the end of

3054:

Yes, I think so. Except in bibliographies, where identifying a source article's page-range is common practice, in stand-alone journal -article citations, list only the relevant page(s) that identify the location(s) of the information supporting our article; don't make readers search through every

2044:

I took the feedback from both sections above, and I realize this was turning into something way more complicated than it needed to be. So instead, I've refocused this into something more straightforward, focusing on flagging downright errors at 99% case use, rather than minor style variations (but

7215:

The documentation makes pedantic use of parentheses in the case of the phrase "Writer(s)". I understand as a matter of writing style some overly cautious editors are worried about the possibility of it being only one Writer or possibly multiple Writers, but this is complication is never necessary

5372:

consensus to do so. For this reason, I revert on sight every attempt to convert a cite to Vancouver, unless there's a consensus on the talk page that this article uses Vancouver citation format (which is rare, and I would be prone to challenge it if the article didn't begin in that format). The

3831:

Regarding page ranges: this provides useful information on the length of the article or chapter (and I have seen "chapters" of a single page). It also verifies which article/chapter/report is being referred to, and serves as a check on specific references within the source. (Which is particularly

3680:

I personally, if revamping the citations in an article with no discernible existing style, would use CS2 if there weren't enough references to bother with an alphabetical list of sources. If I do an alphabetical list of sources, I use CS1 and short footnotes, or CS1 and parenthetical referencing.

1813:

On the otherhand, dealing with initialization would, indeed, be immensely useful. Inconsistent use (within an article) of first names versus initials only is annoying. But while I favor having first names, on some topics I have so many sources (usually journals) that supply only initials that the

5951:

I also find the argument that we need first names spelled out to distinguish between authors that have identical same last names and first initials unpersuasive. First of all, this is a rather uncommon occurrence. Second, why is it important to distinguish between authors in the first place? The

2877:

This might be a frequent question, but how is one supposed to cite a portion (certain page(s)) of an article in a periodical, or a chapter from a book, in a Knowledge article that does not have separate lists of references and bibliography, especially when the said work is cited only once in the

3846:

I wholeheartedly concur with this. No style that I'm familiar with condones such a practice and the template documentation is woefully misleading in this regard. In-source specification, as you call it, is unjustly common, which I think is thanks in no small part to the fact that your suggested

3161:

I'm not asking about notation. I'm asking you if you know of any academic publication or house style that indicates, inside a citation (not in-text references), the page range of the relevant part of the cited work in place of that of the entire work in a larger work, such as a book or journal.

1913:

The point is to accommodate all the valid styles (or at least the MOS-compliant ones), and help achieve those consistently, not to force an artificial preference for one style over the other. We should not force people to use full first names when they don't want to. If you want to supply them,

1805:

To the argument that providing a "first-last" option will encourage some number of (probably extremely few) editors to use templates: I think it is more likely to enable expanded use of "first-last" ordering, and make citations less consistent. Other options are available to persuade (or simply

1502:

There are a variety of reason why some editors support CITEVAR, one of those reasons is that if you're familiar with a particular citation style, such as APA, it's easier to type it than to type a template. It also makes the wikitext shorter, and thus easier to edit. I don't know anything about

3454:

2. Baker, R.W., Knox, J.C., Lively, R.S., and Olsen, B.R., 1998, Evidence for early entrenchment of the upper Mississippi River valley, in Patterson, C.J., and Wright, H.E., Jr., eds., Contributions to Quaternary Studies in Minnesota: Minnesota Geological Survey Report of Investigations 49, p.

7185:

If you are concerned that readers understand which names are surnames and which are first names, you should prefer surname-first with commas. Because that way, "Smith, John", "Kim, Il Sung", "von Doom, Victor", and "Montarcé Lastra, Antonio" are all unambiguous. If you tried to write them in

4382:

Yeah, I know, I wrote that code so the likelihood is that it's incomplete or just wrong. Is there a reason (that I failed to document in the code, and no longer remember) that a volume range should use a hyphen separator in preference to an unspaced endash when volume is rendered in normal

6941:{{cite web|url=http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1963/03/05/page/B11/article/irving-s-olds-u-s-steel-war-chief-is-dead|via=|title=IRVING S. OLDS, U. S. STEEL WAR CHIEF, IS DEAD (March 5, 1963)|author=|date=|work=chicagotribune.com|accessdate=17 April 2017}} {{subscription required}} 2262:

When you say "report a variety of issues" do you mean that the template would not properly function for names with those issues, or merely that the article would be thrown into a maintenance category? Not working for single-letter-but-unpunctuated names would be bad for people like

5453:

Citations exist to verify the material provided, not to provide full author information every time one cites something. Good metadata benefits is a bonus, not a goal, and this is no different than converting things to "Smith, J." or "J. Smith". That said, see my proposal below.

3471:

Please note that it appear you are getting tangled up on two kinds of "page ranges". What I was just describing is where the source is a chapter, report, or article that is found in a larger work (such as book, journal issue, encyclopedia, etc.), where the page range used in a

2454:

complications we add to cite templates the more we drive people away from them. This is one of the reasons I started thread above this one; vauthors is an unnecessary divergence from how to enter author data, so it needs to go away (even aside from metadata loss problem).

5841:, legacy workaround that has been surpassed, and cleaning up after it is an increasing editorial drain. It needs to stop. At least 19 out of 20 uses of it I encounter are someone inserting it willy-nilly into an article that does not use Vancouver citation style anyway. 1877:, it is indeed untidy to have full names for some authors and only initials for others, and, as you say, sometimes that's all that is available. But tidying that up by uniformly displaying only initials would be hiding information that could be useful to readers. 2542:

Not using these features would not avoid their costs. Editors need to read wikitext added by others. Watchlists will be full of fiddling with these display parameters, and talk pages full of arguments about the best settings for them, all irrelevant to content.

2853:

doesn't recognize, and even then, the unrecognized parameter merely produces one of two error messages so I suspect that semi-protection is plenty. The sandbox version is there because humans err, always best to test whatever you want to do before committing to

2715:

uses "F.M. Last" format. Why should we forgo error checking and full name metadata simply because the author format isn't the default one? Or require that editors spend more time than needed reviewing every new citation added to ensure this format is respected?

1892:

in using initials (in lieu of first names) or not? If consistency is important, then is it better to merely "hide" (not display) information? Or not include it at all? Having this option means that consistency can be readily arranged if someone insists on it,

6049:, the approved character set for DOI suffixes is: "a-z", "A-Z", "0-9" and "-._;()/" since 2008. A "check DOI" error should be thrown if a doi with an non-approved character is found in a publication dated 2009 or later. It would help find these sort of errors 3264:

Repeating the words in green text doesn't making the question that you really want to ask any clearer. I still think that you are asking about some journal's house style. As I said before, I have nothing to say about any particular academic journal's house

2934:

So how is one supposed to indicate the relevant part of a source that is in turn a part of a larger volume? Need one indicate only the relevant portion and not the location of the work itself? Or indicate the the location of the work in the template and use

3248:

I'm asking you if you know of any academic publication or house style that indicates, inside a citation (not in-text references), the page range of the relevant part of the cited work in place of that of the entire work in a larger work, such as a book or

1054:

lf/ff and the like are partial solutions at best, and will still produce inconsistent abbreviations. However, I've updated the proposal to include 'cultural' names and use codes to simplify. If something needs to be bypassed for some reason you could have

2919:). But it is also the usual practice (not just on Knowledge but in scholarly works in general) to indicate the range of pages the cited work occupies in a volume so that the reader knows where to look for it. But in the CS1 templates, only one of 1858:

With due respect to AMA style, I think we should consistently use a comma following the surname. That is an aid to the reader in showing that the ordinary (in English) first-last order has been inverted, and also distinguishes compound surnames.

6560:

I don't have the coding chops for this work. I think it's a reasonable idea, as long as arXiv and Bibcode IDs all come in a consistent format. I seem to remember some oddball identifiers, but those might have been something other than arXiv and

7086:. I cannot link the slides here as they would just redirect to the first slide. That is why I use the "page" parameter, simply to indicate the slide number if I can't link it. But I think it's high time they added a parameter called "slide". -- 7234:"Writer(s)" is straightforward. It means that editors can choose to write "writer" or "writers" or "writer(s)", as they choose. It also means that the editor does not know if there is one writer or many, so the "(s)" indicates that unknown. – 7162:

We invert European-style "John Smith" name order to "Smith, John" because the surname is recognized as the primary key in identifying, listing, and finding names, and it is handier, more visisbile, to have it out in front. (Also makes sorting

2567:

Yes. Aside from supporting major "styles" with significant usage on Knowledge, we should be reducing variation that does not serve a useful purpose. Particularly: as the standard order of author names here is last-first (inverted), we should

2575:

The complexity problem is not entirely the template options themseles, but the documentation. Those of a gnomish bent won't know of the options unless they are documented, and then everyone else gets lost in all the arcane detail.

2488:

provide more options for last/first ordering (or what it boils down to: inverting, or not, co-author names). As an inducement for using templates it is very slight, and likely quite unnecessary, and it opens a prospect of greater

5550:

I would certainly hope note. That style should just be nuked as a readability problem (and another loss of data: it won't distinguish between the name Devine, which is Irish, and DeVine which is French, or Flemish or something).

7137:

Il, Kim Jong Un). I'm also a bit uncertain where to place particles, like in "Victor von Doom". Is the "von" part of the surname or the first name? I think this template should lay out the names in their proper order.

5939:

imposes few restrictions on how first name are stored, rendered, and displayed in the meta data. They can be spelled out in full, may or may not include middle names, use inititials with or without periods. In contrast,

7152:

What is the "proper" order? In some cultures the "proper" order is the surname or family first, in others it comes last. In Spanish the family name – what in English we consider the "last" name – can have other names

5329:

And there's more than one kind of metadata. The template coding itself is meta-data for editors and source-aware readers. Keeping sur- and given names separate is future-proof, and also directly operable upon by

2848:

Invited? I don't know about that but I suspect that the amount of damage that can be done to cs1|2 templates by a vandal is relatively minimal – the suggestions file isn't read unless there is a parameter that

6283:

I've done a lot of cleanup related to bad arxiv/bibcodes, but a thing that would greatly help is we had some sort of validation / verification that the date is consistent with the date part of identifiers.

2310:

I mean that the template would keep displayed things as best it could and throw error messages when things were wrong or couldn't display them in the specified format. For single name authors like Thant,

1662:

citation. This isn't a proposal to deploy those by bots, but to allow humans to more easily standardize citation articles and clean them up when they need to be, and help bots respect an existing style.

5608:

That's assuming anyone uses the right smallcaps markup and input the name correctly. What's very likely to happen is that one of those people who likes this format is going to enter the name as DEVINE.

4130:

Of course "notes without a bibliography" is allowed. More pertinent to the Knowledge context, and particularly to the use of Harv templates: collecting the full citations in a separate bibliography is

5482:

Truncating the author names for no legitimate reason makes that citation verification more difficult. It also makes our metadata work more difficult (e.g. determining whether someone qualifies for an

1946:

A reader might well be interested in knowing which "A. Jones" is being cited as an authority for a particular statement. If the full name is already in the wikisource, it is unhelpful to hide it.

6913:

This works, but it drops the original URL if newspapers.com goes defunct we couldn't easily find alternative archives. Maybe have two cite templates, the above and one for the original URL with a

3533:

if you know of any academic publication or house style that indicates, inside a citation (not in-text references ), the page range of the relevant part of the cited work in place of of in .

1606:

I hope that this is not done. It would considerably complicate the templates, for no gain in expressiveness. It would also give people a whole new set of knobs to fiddle with and argue over.

2319:

if the honorific is needed, although we don't usually include those). But let's say there's someone out there with the first name O and a last name of Johnson, well there's nothing wrong with

1561:-compliant and those that aren't, and got rid of the obscure 'codes' in favor of obvious things people don't need to remember or look up. The ideal solution (maybe this would be possible with 5679:

Oh, so the functionality is already present, right? The name is bit putting-offish, though. (I reckon especially for editors that find the templates challenging as it is.) Could we have

3517:

are usually omitted, on the assumption that the reader can find the proper passage on his or her own. (Though we have an exception here with "Chamberlin and Leverett, 1894, p. 265".) ♦

3097:

cs1|2 were developed using the standard printed style manuals as guides. cs1|2 hew to none but have taken bits and pieces from the variety of style manuals to become their styles. The

5900: 3000:

I would fill in the chapter parameter with the name of the parameter and the page parameter with the number 30. The page parameter in my personal preference as well as my reading of

5006:

is still converted to use an endash. Elsewhere I suggested a mechanism that could be used to mean "accept this as written" which uses the doubled-parentheses markup supported by

5193:

We need to ditch this. All it's doing is producing shite metadata, and people are abusing it to destroy good metadata we already have. I keep having to revert this all the time.

6089:) is 'allowed' by the current standard: "An expanded set of characters was supported prior to 2008, so you may see DOIs with now-banned characters (such as #, +, <, and : --> 1354:

Per my thread above this one, I support a simple way to turn on Vancouver formatting without losing underlying data, so we can deprecate (and eventually convert then disable)

5301:

has advanced logic because it expects a very specific format and will throw errors if things are not declared in that format. That's why it can produce the correct metadata.

3783:

source, be it an entire book, a chapter in a book, an article in an encyclopedia or journal, etc. Where your source is only a portion (such as a chapter) of larger work use

2655: 2553:

we already have too much variation in allowed reference formatting. We should be working to reduce that variation. Instead, this proposal encourages us to vary even more. —

1022:

Last normally first. The author comes from a culture where the family name is normally written first, so no comma is added between the family name and the rest of the name.

2915:

used for the range of pages of the work that is relevant to the claim, not of where to locate the work as a whole in a larger volume (which is permitted according to the

3109:

which is our template for those journals. cs1|2 have elected to lump all identifiers together at the end of the rendered citation (it has been this way for many a year.

2788: 2623: 3666:

Don't you think using CS2 would be more appropriate in that construction in terms of punctuation? (Although admittedly my original question pertains to CS2 as well.)

6851: 5279:

With the exception that Vancouver system style renders name lists slightly differently from cs1|2 style, the metadata for the above examples are exactly the same.

3950:

with a cite template in it. If {{cite xxx}} had a built-in ability to indicate where the portion of the source relevant to the claim is outside the main citation

1160:

to all citations would be so much easier and quicker to bring everything in a consistent format, find errors, and future proof the article's existing citation.

3531:

I'm afraid it seems to me you're the one who is tangled up on two kinds of "work" (or "source"). What I've been asking is (I quote now with added annotations)

3080:(1): 30. doi:xx.xxx/xxx". I don't think the average reader expects "30" to refer to the portion relevant to the claim, yet the DOI to refer to the whole paper. 3875:

Huh? I am having some trouble understanding what you are saying. (Especially with "unjustly common".) As to my "suggested alternative" – in essence, to use

2599:

You can wish the templates/people worked in a way until you're blue in the face, the fact remain that people use them and errors creep in. For instance, in

5965:) ID and recreate the citation from scratch (including full author names if so desired) using one of the many available tools for doing so. Why replicate 2450:

Which brings me right back to "This seems over-complicated". I.e., I don't think anyone's going want to try to learn and remember all this stuff. The more

4750:

Tweaked; now handles a comma- or semicolon-separated list of ranges and singles; removes extraneous spacing around the hyphen/endash; skips linked ranges:

5368:(not just metadata). This makes it pointlessly onerous to convert back (either re-research the sources, or dig back in page history) even when there's a 4832:

when ranges have spaced or unspaced endash or emdash separators, emdash is replaced with endash and extraneous whitespace removed, linked ranges skipped:

2168:

are presented as J.H. Smith. Errors are only reported when the parameters themselves are wrong or the output cannot be presented in the specified format.

1802:

should be first-last or last-first (inverted). In that we have a predominant "last-first" style we should lean towards having that a consistent standard.

2695:

You are mixing together error checking of parameter values and tweaking formatting of the displayed output. Surely these should be orthogonal issues.

4010:

A source cited only once in an article, and inserted "in-line", doesn't need a Harv template. Just append the in-source location after the template. ♦

7168:

I believe particles are generally kept in front of the surname, but ignored for sorting and searching. Perhaps someone else knows more about that. ♦

2789:

Knowledge talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Proposal: End "date-forking" into different styles for publication and access/archive in same cite

5640:

which has been in place for years. For consistency, all name-lists, author, editor, translator, interviewer are rendered in Vancouver style when

4207:. The creator of the rp template is hoping that his old template could be retired after this long-discussed system is (eventually) implemented. 2916: 2822: 5357:, without costing us the full name, which may be the only way to tell one author apart from another without digging around in journal sites that 2986:, but the relevant information that backs up my claim is only on page 30. The book is not cited anywhere else in the article. What should I do? 2410:

being the default would lead to hundreds of thousands of errors for perfectly valid styles. So no, we can't make that default. And cases like

1324:

An interesting idea. Supporting all of these variants may result in excessively complex template code and may confuse editors. However I think

3989:

itself. That one can add all sorts of stuff inside a note seems to be not well known. I don't know what kind of {cite} feature would fix that.

3126:

Do those academic journals indicate inside a citation the page range of the relevant part of the work instead of that of the work as a whole?

1914:

that's allowed. If you want to initialize, that's allowed too. No one needs full names to find a citation, unless the information provided is

1517:

Well, you can still do it all by hand manually if you want. But that means lots of manual cleanup after bots whenever someone adds something.

6820:

Note that newspapers.com is not a web archive but similar to JSTOR and other commercial database providers and I believe shouldn't be in the

6276: 97: 89: 84: 72: 67: 59: 6944: 2649:

This sort of error checking would lead to vast amounts of citation improvements and fixes. For instance, the very basic error of the type

1200:

You're arguing that a barely-maintained-as-it-is bot could use this? Forgive me if I might be a bit skeptical of that suggested use. :) --

7083: 5899:

This proposal is a complete non-starter. The citations to tens of thousands of biomedical and scientific articles were first added using

5648:{{cite book |title=Title |chapter=Chapter |last=Brown |first=Ralph B. |editor-last=Green |editor-first=A. Gardner |name-list-style=vanc}} 7220: 2666:

in what the format should be. If you've got better names for parameter values, put them forward, but I don't feel you could be clearer.

1794:

provide more options for last/first ordering. Having the name of the lead author in "last-first" order is pretty much the standard for

6189: 6113: 4171:; they do not apply to the full citations that might be collected in a bibliography, and are not contingent on having a biblography. ♦ 3972:

Short answer: No. That, as you say, editors "rarely add anything else" inside the note tags is due to a general failure to distinguish

4204: 5852: 5807: 5620: 5562: 5501: 5442: 5423: 5392: 5222: 4482:

Volume is lowercased in your example because that is how you wrote it; the module does not modify case for any of these parameters:

2802: 2466: 2397: 1382: 5821:? I don't see any above that haven't been addressed. It appears that any use of this parameter can be replaced by standardized 2981:

Let's say I want to cite a chapter that is 50 pages long in a 300-page anthology book, in an article where every citation uses

1692: 6899:

in the title but I don't feel strongly on the point. Access date here doesn't feel great but it doesn't feel horrid either. --

6737: 6682: 6647: 6612: 6542: 6502: 6249: 6203: 6161: 6062: 5711: 5590: 5464: 5311: 5153: 5053: 4732: 4520: 4464: 4244: 3648: 3004:

is that it is intended for the page which supports the content not to say which pages the chapter is. The documentation says

2726: 2676: 2521: 2428: 2348: 2244: 2181: 2012: 1977: 1928: 1753: 1673: 1587: 1527: 1480: 1414: 1298: 1243: 1182: 1076: 977: 1703:

is the diff required to make that happen, and involves reviewing every citation. Now if someone uses the ref toolbar to add

5536:

Hmmm, could something similar be done for the extremely small number of editors that like small caps ("bluebook" style)? ♦

3496:

to a full citation (as explained previously, when the source is cited only once), or it can be specified in the short cite.

5927:, ... in articles where Vancouver was the first established citation style would violate CITEVAR. The rationale for using 3283: 2826: 2539:

Some of the resistance to citation templates is based on a perception of complexity, which this proposal would exacerbate.

1396:

the above absolutely need to be supported natively, but all those styles are used somewhere and we could support them per

6350: 6046: 4104:

I wonder if "only the page numbers pertaining to that passage are given" still applies when no bibliography is employed.

3217:

regarding cs1|2 journal volume-issue-pagination / identifier style. But, since you did not take up 'notation' with your

3633: 1266: 6331: 3549:

It's obviously not clearer to you what you are asking about. As you insist on being obtuse I think we are done here. ♦

1814:

work digging out complete names dissuades me from providing first names even where I do have them. With something like

7069: 6098: 5670: 5289: 5116: 5021: 4919: 4702: 4497: 4391: 4095: 3273: 3238: 3188: 3152: 3117: 3063: 3045: 3013: 2965: 2862: 2751:

additional options. Agree with notion of keeping templates simple and template output to be more uniform than varied.

7219:

Keep it simple, if the possibility of one or none is important say so, otherwise avoid over-punctuated plural(s). --

5878:

or some such. I think this discussion is on hold until the following discussion ("New parameter: af") is resolved. ♦

6959: 4538:

Tweaked sandbox so that simple cases of different character types on opposite sides of a hyphen (<letter(s): -->

47: 38: 17: 5915:

covers not only the rendered citation but also how citations are formatted in the raw wiki text. Hence replacing

5517:

parameter, provided it's smart enough to extract the proper initials from several forms of input. Also a similar

4134:

required. Stuff the full citations where ever you want, and the Harv templates will link to them. It's not just

4076:

Notes without a bibliography is allowed, but p. 743 states notes are usually used together with a bibliography.

1731:, which again breaks the style, and needs a cleanup edit. This could be made much, much easier by simply adding 106: 7212:. My change is a simplification, and I didn't think it was a bold change in need of discussion but here goes. 7191: 6449:

Perlmutter, S.; et al. (1 January 1994). "Discovery of a supernova explosion at half the age of the universe".

6405:

Perlmutter, S.; et al. (1 January 2000). "Discovery of a supernova explosion at half the age of the universe".

6361:

Perlmutter, S.; et al. (1 January 1998). "Discovery of a supernova explosion at half the age of the universe".

6122: 3620: 2558: 2272: 1562: 1404:, and you won't be able to get the full benefits of error checking / metadata that comes with supporting them. 1045: 2911:, etc., but AFAIK they are seldom used for works cited only once in such an article, and quite often do I see 1400:. The cost of not supporting them will be: they'll still be used, you still won't be able to change them per 7224: 7065: 6722: 6667: 6632: 6523: 6224: 6141: 6094: 5989:– one really should go back to the original source to check the authors affiliation before linking authors. 5932: 5784:

I've commented for a week+ in the mutating thread below, and have to come back to this one: We need a short

5751:

as such was that it includes editors as well as authors, as noted above…or were you considering also having

5666: 5285: 5112: 5017: 4915: 4713: 4698: 4493: 4387: 3269: 3234: 3184: 3148: 3113: 3059: 2858: 2600: 2230: 2931:

is allowed to appear, so these two practices are not feasible at the same time at least in a CS1 template.

1040:

The cultural name order, if we need it at all, should be on individual authors not the whole author list. —

7093: 7049: 5768: 4212: 4091: 3041: 3009: 2976: 2961: 1371:-defying formats (without the dots and/or spaces), absent a hard requirement like Vancouver's "Chung MT". 5381:

The input needs to be cite-format-neutral or it breaks cross-format compatibility of the raw information.

3442: 1557:

I took the feedback from above, and refined the proposal. I've separated the outputs into those that are

5849: 5804: 5617: 5559: 5498: 5439: 5420: 5389: 5219: 4675: 4629: 4594: 4429: 3610: 3602: 3104: 3072:

Then shouldn't ISBN, DOI, etc. appear before the page range? Especially for a journal, it appears like "

3037: 2799: 2463: 2394: 1795: 1379: 3468:

I have highlighted the page range. Additional page ranges can be found in most of the other references.

1772:

citation. Then a new version of the wikitext, compatible with the existing citation module, is saved.

7173: 6791: 6468: 6424: 6380: 5883: 5734: 5688: 5541: 4176: 4015: 3938:

don't have much use for a source that appear only once in an article without a bibliography, do they?

3916: 3837: 3728: 3554: 3522: 3359: 2581: 2498: 2292: 1902: 1864: 1460: 1222: 1133: 6151:=2009, then have the template flag those errors. If the date is before that, don't flag the errors. 7239: 7187: 7117: 6799: 6578: 6133: 6118: 3616: 2850: 2554: 2305: 2268: 2202: 1041: 1573:), and have citations inherit the style from there, but failing that a (non-mandatory, of course) 6871: 6733: 6678: 6643: 6608: 6538: 6498: 6458: 6414: 6370: 6315: 6300: 6245: 6199: 6157: 6058: 5707: 5586: 5460: 5307: 5197:

is a pointless drain on other editors' time. If someone wants Vancouver-style names, they can do

5149: 5049: 4728: 4516: 4460: 4240: 3644: 3230:

Now, can we set these little quibbles aside and figure out what it is that you are really asking?

3001: 2722: 2696: 2672: 2544: 2517: 2424: 2383: 2378:

should be a default not an option; MoS applies to citation material except when a citation style

2344: 2240: 2177: 2008: 1973: 1947: 1924: 1897:

real loss of information. Which the s/w can still access, and allows incremental augmentation. ♦

1878: 1749: 1669: 1607: 1583: 1523: 1476: 1410: 1294: 1239: 1178: 1072: 973: 3438: 3287: 1963:"Jones, A." and if that's the style the article uses, there is no reason not to support it, and 7271: 7243: 7228: 7195: 7177: 7146: 7121: 7099: 7073: 7055: 7021: 6997: 6934: 6908: 6839: 6803: 6784: 6750: 6695: 6660: 6625: 6582: 6555: 6515: 6262: 6216: 6174: 6126: 6102: 6086: 6075: 6034: 5998: 5978: 5887: 5857: 5812: 5771: 5738: 5724: 5692: 5674: 5625: 5603: 5567: 5545: 5506: 5477: 5447: 5397: 5324: 5293: 5227: 5166: 5120: 5066: 5025: 4923: 4745: 4706: 4533: 4501: 4477: 4395: 4257: 4216: 4180: 4113: 4099: 4085: 4071: 4056: 4019: 3967: 3920: 3870: 3841: 3732: 3690: 3675: 3661: 3624: 3572: 3558: 3544: 3526: 3404: 3363: 3277: 3259: 3242: 3206: 3192: 3171: 3156: 3135: 3121: 3092: 3067: 3049: 3031: 3017: 2995: 2969: 2954: 2866: 2842: 2807: 2760: 2739: 2699: 2689: 2585: 2562: 2547: 2534: 2502: 2471: 2441: 2402: 2361: 2296: 2276: 2257: 2194: 2025: 1990: 1950: 1941: 1906: 1881: 1868: 1781: 1766: 1686: 1610: 1600: 1540: 1512: 1493: 1464: 1427: 1387: 1345: 1311: 1281: 1256: 1209: 1195: 1116: 1089: 1049: 1035: 990: 7109: 7088: 7044: 7039: 6969: 6780: 5912: 5764: 5521:

parameter that displays as "Samuels, D. R." Given both of those then we could push for always

5369: 4208: 4036:, 17th ed., in the chapter on the notes & bibliography system of citation, p. 752, states 3905: 3773: 3763: 2641: 2617: 2609: 2127:, would be in the MOS-format. This can help catch inconsistent abbreviations, when used (e.g. 2092:

simply displays the first/last names in that order, checks that the parameters themselves are

1964: 1401: 1397: 1161: 5729:

That might be better. And, in having the same value as the long-form, easier to implement. ♦

4062:

Does Chicago's notes and bibliography system allow having only notes and not a bibliography?

3816:

the template.) If elsewhere you want refer to that source again, but a different page, use a

1336:

in standard CS1 author format in cases where CS1 is the predominate/first established style.

7142: 7014: 6927: 6832: 6745: 6690: 6655: 6620: 6550: 6510: 6476: 6432: 6388: 6257: 6211: 6185: 6169: 6109: 6082: 6070: 6030: 5994: 5974: 5953: 5844: 5799: 5719: 5612: 5598: 5554: 5493: 5472: 5434: 5415: 5384: 5319: 5214: 5161: 5061: 4740: 4528: 4472: 4252: 4109: 4081: 4067: 4052: 3963: 3866: 3686: 3671: 3656: 3568: 3540: 3400: 3255: 3227:, I was referring to my previous post, where, in fact, I had written nothing about notation. 3202: 3167: 3131: 3088: 3027: 2991: 2950: 2794: 2734: 2684: 2529: 2458: 2436: 2389: 2356: 2252: 2214: 2189: 2085:. No error messages are thrown if you have a mixture of "Smith, John H." and "Jones, A. F.". 2020: 1985: 1936: 1777: 1761: 1722: 1704: 1681: 1595: 1568: 1535: 1508: 1488: 1422: 1374: 1341: 1306: 1251: 1226: 1190: 1084: 1031: 985: 108: 3563:

Yeah, to me the question could not be any clearer, so I pretty much give up at this point.

1221:

Citation Bot has resumed a normal maintenance cycle for a few while now. Same idea for the

7169: 6993: 6984: 6888: 5879: 5817:

So, can anyone actually articulate an objection to this deprecation of and phasing out of

5730: 5684: 5537: 5374: 5339:

parameter that applies visual output munging to data submitted as parameter information –

5133: 5086: 5037: 4688: 4642: 4607: 4442: 4172: 4159:

And page ranges are useful in full citations regardless of where they get put. But your "

4011: 3912: 3833: 3826:

template. These link to the full citation (some caveats here) so you don't have repeat it.

3724: 3550: 3518: 3355: 2577: 2494: 2411: 2371: 2288: 2222: 1955:

That's a matter for prose, distinct from referencing matters. Again, "Jones, Alphonso" is

1898: 1860: 1456: 1137: 6472: 6428: 6384: 1455:

is a good idea, but invoking CITEVAR drama to argue a piddling detail is not helpful. ♦

111: 7267: 7235: 7113: 6904: 6795: 6741: 6686: 6651: 6616: 6589: 6574: 6546: 6527: 6506: 6345:

For bibcodes, the format is the leading 4 digits refer to the year. Since bibcodes are

6253: 6207: 6165: 6066: 5715: 5594: 5468: 5315: 5157: 5057: 4736: 4524: 4468: 4248: 3652: 2838: 2756: 2730: 2680: 2525: 2432: 2352: 2284: 2248: 2185: 2016: 1981: 1932: 1757: 1677: 1591: 1531: 1484: 1418: 1302: 1277: 1247: 1205: 1186: 1112: 1080: 981: 841:

and throw in error messages when the conversion to the specified format couldn't work.

3755:

The question arises from an incomplete understanding of the purpose and proper use of

1144:

manually, and then manually editing everything to use initials, as well as converting

764:

Those would kick in for authors/editors and format them in the specified manner, e.g.

6729: 6674: 6639: 6604: 6534: 6494: 6241: 6195: 6153: 6054: 5703: 5582: 5456: 5303: 5145: 5126: 5045: 4724: 4512: 4456: 4236: 3928: 3901:

discussion above about having "ref" default to "harv" for CS1 templates. Or just use

3879: 3820: 3640: 2718: 2706: 2668: 2513: 2420: 2340: 2236: 2226: 2173: 2004: 1997: 1969: 1920: 1745: 1665: 1617: 1579: 1519: 1472: 1406: 1363: 1290: 1288:

Why should citoid or the ref toolbar not be updated to make use of the new features?

1235: 1174: 1068: 969: 3954:

where to find the entire source, don't you think that would deter people from using

3101:(issue): page notation is very common to academic journals so is supported here for 2631:

Should we do nothing? Or should we tell people "Hey, this is not how you should use

1818:

I could supply what I have, and the article could be consistent using just initials.

6939:

Would this work, or would having an external link in the via field be undesirable?

6776: 6772: 6277:

Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 16#Cross check date/year with arxiv and bibcode?

6233: 2905: 2116: 1821:

Anyway, supplying a pattern is too complex. Let the parameter values (options) be:

1558: 1368: 716: 179: 6107:

I agree. I don't recall seeing # but I've definitely seen some with < and : -->

6008: 5838: 2960:

I don't understand what you are asking? Is this about CS1 or Harvard referencing?

1362:, or as the mandatory style of some major journal publisher, or otherwise neither 5268:'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000004D-QINU`"'<cite class="db-Y2l0YXRpb24gYg": --> 5253:'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000004A-QINU`"'<cite class="db-Y2l0YXRpb24gYg": --> 4044:

the beginning and ending page numbers of the entire article or chapter are given.

110: 7259: 7182: 7138: 7007: 6920: 6825: 6492:

to suppress the categories when the mismatch is legit for a variety of reasons.

6026: 5990: 5970: 4197: 4105: 4077: 4063: 4048: 3959: 3897:

line when using CS1 templates. Which is certainly easy enough. And see also the

3862: 3851: 3682: 3667: 3592: 3564: 3536: 3396: 3251: 3198: 3163: 3127: 3084: 3023: 2987: 2946: 2939: 2895: 2218: 2210: 1773: 1504: 1337: 1027: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

7079: 6989: 2885: 1726: 1708: 1696: 1156:

in the proper format. This also reduces the value of metadata a bit. Applying

5833:, which could have a short alias. I would like to see this proceed, because 5248:{{cite book |title=Title |last1=Ceesdale |first1=AB |last2=Effly |first2=DE}} 5095:{{cite book/new |title=Title |pages=3.a - 6.a, A-1 - C-5, ((1-2a)), 1-2-1-5}} 1066:

one as the Chinese order Liu Jianguo, rather than Western order Jianguo Liu.

7263: 7042:? It will be easy to cite sources using slides which are hard to link to. -- 6900: 5792:(which pretty much no one is ever going to remember or use), the deprecated 3083:

Also, is this a practice recommended in any existing style guide out there?

2834: 2752: 2206: 1713:

DeLamater, John D.; Sill, Morgan (May 2005). "Sexual desire in later life".

1273: 1216: 1201: 1123: 1108: 719:-compliance when initials are used, but does not force initials to be used. 3006:

page: The number of a single page in the source that supports the content.

2635:"? This way the error can be fixed and the citation turned into a proper: 1272:

and have a script to enforce that, but your point wasn't about that. ;) --

1168:

is used in the article, and whenever it adds citations, it could then use

6463: 6419: 6375: 6319: 5030: 3847:

alternative is not natively supported by those templates. I've seen even

3022:

Thanks. Would you do the same for a paper from a journal that has a DOI?

6349:

for the version of record, we should have a silent maintenance category

5533:

we could push for phasing out vauthors= and requiring "no loss of data".

4167:" (italics added) sounds like an in-source specifier. Those go with the 1577:

in the citation themselves would allow to have much of the same effect.

4928:

And one last tweak: ranges of hyphenated numbers (also dot separators):

3941:

By "your suggested alternative" I meant adding in-source specification

2653:

are so numerous you cannot find them all with straightfoward searches (

2264: 586: 3893:": ah, perhaps you are referring to the current necessity of adding a 1233:(or whichever style) afterwards make cleanup a million times quicker. 6896: 6353:

whenever the date doesn't match what you can infer from the bibcode.

5966: 5944:

imposes strict formatting requirements on first initials. In short,

3197:

Yes you did. Both "academic journals" and "notation" are your words.

2945:

etc. to show the relevant part, even if the work is cited only once?

5866:

I don't see that we have a clear vision of how to proceed. Removing

3980:

the notes generally contain, even to the point of thinking that the

3441:) the full citations are collected in a "References Cited" section ( 5139:

by editors. This is bad, especially when combined with things like

5083:

seems easier to me than typing out the ten characters required for

3140:

I think that you are asking me to comment about the house style of

6480: 6436: 6392: 6304: 6150:

such errors, but to catch those we can, e.g. if date/year is : -->

5364:

Any time people convert other citation formats to Vancouver, they

2712: 1831:

displayed as specified (first name, middle initials, "Jr.", etc.).

6444:

This would throw both the arxiv and bibcode date mismatch errors

5701:

so that it scales to other systems if we end up supporting them.

2767:

Proposal to end conflicting date formats within the same citation

1136:), then editors need to clean them up to bring them in line with 6945:"IRVING S. OLDS, U. S. STEEL WAR CHIEF, IS DEAD (March 5, 1963)" 5870:

seems acceptable, but there is still a question regarding doing

3898: 2813:

lang on suggestion list removed; general q about suggestion list

4486:{{cite journal |title=Title |volume=3-a |issue=3-A |pages=3-A}} 3223:, I presumed that we were done with that topic so when I wrote 1565:) would be to declare one what the author format is once (e.g. 1229:

in general. Either way, even if the bot doesn't use it, adding

1010:

Last name first, last name separated from first name by a comma

6287:

For arxiv identifier, the date info is encoded in this format

4365:{{cite journal/new |title=Title |journal=Journal |volume=1-2}} 4345:{{cite journal/new |title=Title |journal=Journal |volume=1-2}} 2777: 112: 25: 5377:

RfC to ban the Vancouver format as antithetical to our goals.

3832:

useful for checking that one has cited the right chapter.) ♦

551:

specifically. This would allow for single-name authors (e.g.

5404:

Maybe this is actually essentially the same proposal as the

4453:

And the volume shouldn't be lowercased automatically either.

4090:

This question was what to do if no bibliography is present.

2069:. It would report a variety of issues like bad hyphenation ( 1837:: initial (with period) of first name, with middle initials. 6190:

10.1002/1097-0207(20000910/20)49:1/2<61::AID-NME923: -->

6114:

10.1002/1097-0207(20000910/20)49:1/2<61::AID-NME923: -->

5525:

the full personal names even where an article's consistent

1737:|last1=DeLamater |first1=John D. |last2=Sill |first2=Morgan 5263:{{cite book |title=Title |vauthors=Ceesdale AB, Effly DE}} 3513:

page ranges in the example article because in-source page

2150:

or whatever to present things in that specific format. If

1630:

hard to cleanup. In the same article you'll have a mix of

5233:

Do you have evidence that the metadata that derives from

4892: 4875: 4810: 4793: 4333:

But, while doing that, I noticed that we do the same for

3180:

so I guess I have no idea what it is that you are asking.

2370:

This seems over-complicated (and don't forget cases like

1367:

not forced to do so. We likewise have no reason for any

6330:

preprints, we should have a silent maintenance category

568:) without losing the benefits of specific formats (e.g. 7255: 7209: 6050: 5075:

onerous. If we are looking for ease-of-typing, adding

3354:

See also what Jc3s5h has quoted (below) from CMS-17. ♦

3219: 3213: 3008:

it doesn't say to specify what pages the chapters are.

2818: 1700: 1129: 3599:

the citation template within the same footnote. Like "

3445:). The second reference in that article is as follows: 3945:

the citation. People rarely add anything else inside

3791:

in the larger work. (Note that I dispute the use of

2662:

Also the parameters values are not cryptic, they are

1741:|last1=DeLamater |first1=J. D. |last2=Sill |first2=M. 1437:

you still won't be able to change them per WP:CITEVAR

6895:

I assume there is an author. I suppose you could do

3421:– the "Baker et al., 1998" bits — are placed in the 2112:

so single names / corporate names can still be used.

7157:

it. In short, there is no universal "proper" order.

6342:than what you can infer from the arxiv identifier. 5267: 5252: 3804:To refer to one or more specific locations (pages) 3282:I know of such cases. Several, in fact. E.g.: the 3040:has the same thing written in it as template book. 2326:, so there wouldn't be any errors shown there. You 996:A more flexible solution would be a new parameter, 6814:What would be the best way to form this citation? 1470:I meant on a mass scale, not individual articles. 1128:Here's a typical case where this would be useful. 6400:This would throw the bibcode date mismatch error 5254:Ceesdale, AB; Effly, DE. ''Title''.</cite: --> 4777:|pages=3 - 6, A – C, R-S; , H4-H9, 3A - 6B, 15, A 2833:that it is presently transcluded on 20k pages? -- 6852:"Irving S. Olds, U. S. steel war chief, is dead" 6775:is for episodes? I'm having trouble finding it. 6138:That DOI dates from 2000, which is before 2008. 5002:This does not fix the single hyphenated number, 4506:Stray capslock/shift thing. My bad. However, it 5948:is much more efficient and insures consistency. 5361:, if you're lucky, will give you the full name. 5269:Ceesdale AB, Effly DE. ''Title''.</cite: --> 4404:making this default behavior are in cases like 4337:but only when rendering in bold font; not when 3486:the specific material or passage you are citing 3452: 2572:enable a variant usage of no significant value. 2135:), but does not force abbreviations to be used. 1262:reftoolbar's. It might be reasonable to have a 6229:any help here? Both for the new error and the 5335:should just be deprecated and replaced with a 653:, ...). It would also report parameter abuse ( 5984:determining whether someone qualifies for an 5373:issue is important enough, I've considered a 4230:renders as 1–15, rather than 1-15, so should 3911:, where "ref=harv" is already the default. ♦ 3478:where that source is found in the larger work 2873:Citing a portion of a work in a larger volume 1888:The underlying question is: how important is 1798:; the variance among styles has been whether 1107:, so I don't see an analog there, either.) -- 728:Reports errors for anything not in that style 8: 6269:Cross check year/date with the arxiv/bibcode 5747:If I recall correctly the reason for naming 5653:Brown RB. "Chapter". In van Green AG (ed.). 5129:won't respect, and will need to be fixed to 3899:#Proposal: make ref=harv the default for CS1 3480:. A page range can also be specified as the 3211:So I did. I used 'notation' in response to 2622:: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( 2334:, but it's something you could overide with 130:, covering author format. Right now we have 7061:Real life example of what you mean please? 6081:Problematic. That particular (dead) doi ( 2984:{{cite book/journal/etc|...}}</ref: --> 2783:Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere. 1622:Not really no. The current situation is a 963:And then we could deprecate the god-awful 589:, but flags errors for mis-abbreviations ( 6462: 6418: 6374: 3891:not natively supported by those templates 2142:abbreviation style in mind, they can use 857:→ Emily Dickinson; F. S. K. Fitzgerald ( 678:blank is equivalent to this. However, if 126:, it would be immensely useful to have a 7038:Is it possible to add this parameter to 7006:is a plain text field, not for URLs. -- 6087:10.7249/mg702wf.9#page_scan_tab_contents 4942: 4846: 4764: 4556: 4267: 4205:m:WMDE Technical Wishes/Book referencing 3429:, is entirely immaterial to question of 143: 6792:User:Jonesey95/Tools#How to see CITEREF 6117:. We need to continue allowing those. — 6017:is minimalist, clean, and uncluttered. 3490:that does not go into the full citation 3425:(with or without parentheses), or in a 3293:for several citations with page ranges. 2823:Module:Citation/CS1/Suggestions/sandbox 2644:. Calcutta School of Tropical Medicine. 2612:. Calcutta School of Tropical Medicine. 579: 7105: 7003: 6979: 6978: 6967: 6884: 6880: 6869: 6824:but what to do with it is unclear. -- 6821: 6599: 6595: 6569: 6489: 6335: 6022: 6018: 6014: 6004: 6003: 5985: 5983: 5962: 5958: 5945: 5941: 5936: 5928: 5924: 5920: 5916: 5908: 5904: 5875: 5871: 5867: 5834: 5830: 5826: 5822: 5818: 5793: 5789: 5785: 5760: 5756: 5752: 5748: 5698: 5680: 5641: 5637: 5518: 5514: 5483: 5405: 5350: 5347: 5344: 5336: 5332: 5298: 5241: 5238: 5234: 5207: 5204: 5201: 5198: 5194: 5140: 5103:. pp. 3.a–6.a, A-1–C-5, 1-2a, 1-2–1-5. 5072: 5011: 5007: 5003: 4719: 4684: 4673: 4638: 4627: 4603: 4592: 4438: 4427: 4413: 4409: 4405: 4338: 4334: 4231: 4227: 4160: 3955: 3935: 3894: 3890: 3858: 3792: 3784: 3532: 3247: 3224: 3177: 3141: 3005: 2928: 2924: 2920: 2912: 2650: 2632: 2615: 2415: 2407: 2375: 2335: 2331: 2323: 2320: 2316: 2312: 2165: 2162: 2158: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2143: 2132: 2128: 2120: 2109: 2105: 2101: 2097: 2089: 2082: 2078: 2074: 2070: 2062: 2058: 2054: 2050: 1874: 1850: 1846: 1840: 1834: 1828: 1815: 1732: 1693:Special:Permalink/842230702#References 1655: 1651: 1647: 1643: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1574: 1452: 1436: 1355: 1333: 1329: 1325: 1230: 1169: 1165: 1157: 1153: 1149: 1145: 1141: 1104: 1099: 1063: 1060: 1056: 1001: 997: 964: 954: 948: 945: 937: 931: 928: 920: 917:→ Dickinson, E.; F. S.K. Fitzgerald ( 914: 911: 908: 904: 901: 888: 884: 880: 872: 864: 860: 854: 851: 848: 845: 834: 831: 828: 825: 822: 816: 813: 810: 807: 804: 798: 795: 792: 789: 786: 780: 777: 774: 771: 768: 750: 746: 742: 738: 694: 691: 687: 679: 675: 662: 658: 654: 650: 646: 642: 638: 634: 630: 626: 622: 618: 614: 610: 606: 602: 598: 594: 590: 569: 565: 561: 558: 555: 552: 548: 544: 540: 536: 514: 501: 488: 475: 456: 443: 430: 417: 398: 385: 372: 359: 340: 327: 314: 301: 257: 229: 210: 191: 157: 154: 150: 147: 138:), but that's just awful to remember. 131: 127: 123: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 5071:... says the editor who finds adding 4193:Side note: Editors who believe that 3787:to show the location (page range) of 2053:left empty) would simply verify that 7: 5237:is not the same as that produced by 4955:|pages=3.a - 6.a, A-1 - C-5, 1-2-1-5 3808:a source, just add that information 3036:Yep I would do the same for that as 686:set, then it will report the use of 6351:Category:CS1: bibcode date mismatch 5033:details the simplest way: just use 4451:None of those should be dashified. 3981: 3946: 2484:As I said above: I think we should 1810:option would create other problems. 819:→ E. Dickinson; F. S. K. Fitzgerald 783:→ Dickinson, E.; Fitzgerald, F.S.K. 663:|first#=Smith, John J.; Jones, M.C. 3638:" is my standard way of doing it. 2315:is all that's needed (or possibly 1439:": bullshit. CITEVAR says only to 1004:, with the allowable values being 24: 6332:Category:CS1: arXiv date mismatch 6322:: December 1997, submission #032) 6307:: January 2013, submission #2341) 5343:loss of actual data; i.e. render 4859:|pages=3 – 6, A — C, R–S; , 3A—6B 2656:Search for insource:/last *= *\./ 879:to be used consistently, convert 7258:. The problem was documented in 4983:. pp. 3.a–6.a, A-1–C-5, 1-2–1-5. 4970:. pp. 3.a–6.a, A-1–C-5, 1-2–1-5. 4234:render as 1–2, rather than 1-2. 4041:Page numbers and other locators. 3750:{Rp} is, indeed, an abomination. 2772: 1140:. That means hunting down every 29: 6810:Best practice for this citation 6568:Parameter names are difficult. 6193:displays rather incorrectly... 4400:The only case I could think of 4203:is an abomination should watch 2414:are not forgotten, that's what 1843:: displayed in Vancouver style. 801:→ Dickinson, E; Fitzgerald, FSK 7250:Tidy hack regarding Coins span 7110:the documentation for cite web 7082:are perfect examples, such as 5907:which later was replaced with 5788:, even if it just resolves to 3958:for in-source specifications? 3225:I wrote nothing about notation 2330:get an error if you specified 625:, ...), mis-punctutions (e.g. 1: 7262:and is now fixed by Remex. -- 6600:|bibcode-date-mismatch=ignore 6532:can you offer any help here? 6516:16:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC) 5842: 5797: 5610: 5552: 5491: 5432: 5413: 5382: 5212: 3779:templates. They refer to the 3284:Geological Society of America 2792: 2456: 2387: 1697:Sex_manual#Modern_sex_manuals 1372: 1098:The only real reason we have 3535:Now is that clearer to you? 2711:Sure, but both are related. 2123:would ensure that initials, 2108:. This can be overridden by 837:→ Dickinson E, Fitzgerald FS 706:For Asian name order, mostly 613:, ...), , mis-hyphenations ( 564:) and corporate names (e.g. 539:would ignore validation for 7272:16:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC) 7244:19:22, 15 August 2018 (UTC) 7229:15:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC) 7196:23:31, 13 August 2018 (UTC) 7178:23:06, 13 August 2018 (UTC) 7147:06:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 7122:11:26, 13 August 2018 (UTC) 7100:09:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC) 7078:The numerous slideshows at 7074:08:43, 13 August 2018 (UTC) 7056:07:30, 13 August 2018 (UTC) 7022:15:50, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 6998:14:59, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 6935:14:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 6909:13:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 6840:13:47, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 6596:|arxiv-date-mismatch=ignore 6146:, the point isn't to catch 5919:with the much more verbose 4722:? Those are pretty common. 3759:, such as produced by the 3615:See in particular p. 29." — 3437:. In the example provided ( 1853:): last name in small-caps. 1172:too. (Likewise for Citoid.) 633:) and mis-capitalizations ( 7287: 6804:11:19, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 6785:04:44, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 6771:Does anyone know what the 6751:04:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 6661:13:25, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 6626:17:22, 26 April 2018 (UTC) 6583:16:31, 22 March 2018 (UTC) 6556:14:35, 22 March 2018 (UTC) 6263:04:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 6217:16:36, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 6035:08:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC) 5999:01:23, 6 August 2018 (UTC) 5979:01:11, 6 August 2018 (UTC) 5903:tool which initially used 5901:Knowledge template filling 5888:23:01, 5 August 2018 (UTC) 5428:21:58, 5 July 2018 (UTC); 5167:11:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC) 5121:11:30, 3 August 2018 (UTC) 5067:14:16, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 5026:13:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 4924:12:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 4746:04:16, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 4707:16:14, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 4534:15:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 4502:15:40, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 4478:15:23, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 4396:14:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 4217:05:09, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 4163:pertaining to that passage 3573:22:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 3559:21:00, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 3545:01:26, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 3527:00:59, 2 August 2018 (UTC) 2770: 1806:coerce) use of templates; 1332:would be useful to render 158:|editor#-first=John Howard 18:Help talk:Citation Style 1 6696:21:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 6490:|ignore-date-mismatch=yes 6175:20:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 6127:20:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 6103:19:33, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 6076:18:57, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 5858:23:34, 27 July 2018 (UTC) 5813:06:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC) 5626:23:34, 27 July 2018 (UTC) 5604:10:40, 16 July 2018 (UTC) 5568:06:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC) 5448:23:34, 27 July 2018 (UTC) 4975: 4962: 4948: 4883: 4866: 4852: 4801: 4784: 4770: 4615: 4580: 4562: 4311: 4293: 4273: 4258:14:17, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 4181:22:22, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 4114:19:37, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 4100:19:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 4086:19:29, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 4072:19:23, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 4057:19:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 4020:22:51, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3968:22:02, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3921:21:48, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3871:23:06, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3842:22:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3733:22:38, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3691:22:13, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3676:22:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3662:21:02, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3625:20:54, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3405:22:24, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3364:21:43, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3278:21:17, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3260:20:11, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3243:20:03, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3207:19:39, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3193:19:36, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3172:18:54, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3157:00:15, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 3136:22:41, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3122:22:30, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3093:21:38, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3068:21:23, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3050:21:19, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3032:21:11, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 3018:21:09, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 2996:21:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 2970:20:51, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 2955:20:37, 30 July 2018 (UTC) 2867:22:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 2843:21:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC) 2808:15:20, 29 July 2018 (UTC) 2761:20:57, 27 July 2018 (UTC) 2740:00:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC) 2586:19:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC) 2472:06:41, 16 July 2018 (UTC) 1727:10.1080/00224490509552267 1709:10.1080/00224490509552267 1267:use author citation style 852:|first2=Francis Scott Key 832:|first2=Francis Scott Key 814:|first2=Francis Scott Key 796:|first2=Francis Scott Key 778:|first2=Francis Scott Key 741:to ignore validation for 576: 535: 530: 277: 164: 146: 6025:, .... is bletcherous. 5772:15:06, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 5739:23:16, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 5725:22:41, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 5693:22:37, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 5675:10:40, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 5546:23:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5507:22:13, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5478:22:00, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5398:21:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5325:14:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5294:09:09, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5228:07:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 4558:Cite journal comparison 4341:renders in normal font: 4269:Cite journal comparison 3797:in-source speicification 3395:of the source is given? 2700:23:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2690:23:16, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2563:22:56, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2548:22:39, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2535:22:13, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2503:22:03, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2442:22:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2403:22:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2362:20:36, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2297:22:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2277:20:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2258:19:30, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2195:19:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 2088:Using a specific order ( 2040:Further refined proposal 2026:17:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 1991:16:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 1951:14:21, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 1942:13:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 1907:21:56, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 1882:09:29, 9 July 2018 (UTC) 1869:19:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC) 1796:lexicographical ordering 1782:23:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC) 1767:23:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC) 1687:22:51, 7 July 2018 (UTC) 1611:22:41, 7 July 2018 (UTC) 1601:00:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 1541:00:44, 6 July 2018 (UTC) 1513:23:07, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1494:19:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC) 1465:19:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC) 1428:22:24, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1388:22:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1346:19:45, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1312:16:39, 8 July 2018 (UTC) 1282:16:21, 8 July 2018 (UTC) 1257:20:23, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1210:19:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1196:18:07, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1130:CitationBot adds authors 1117:17:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1090:16:31, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1050:16:06, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 1036:15:53, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 991:14:30, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 846:|author1=Emily Dickinson 566:|author=RAND Corporation 7256:removed a hack for Tidy 6962:(subscription required) 6275:This is a follow up to 6011:, legacy workaround ... 5529:style is initials. And 5143:, and should be undone. 4034:Chicago Manual of Style 3607:Theorem 4, p. 29." or " 3142:those academic journals 2603:you have the following 2601:Jyoti Bhusan Chatterjea 2096:, and makes sures that 1735:, rather than changing 1715:Journal of Sex Research 1000:, or the long version, 951:→ Languillat, J. B.C ( 674:Default style, leaving 6858:. March 5, 1963. p. 49 6570:|ignore-date-mismatch= 6013:Beauty is simplicity. 5831:|name-list-format=vanc 5790:|name-list-format=vanc 5642:|name-list-format=vanc 5638:|name-list-format=vanc 4813:, H4–H9, 3A–6B, 15, A. 4796:, H4–H9, 3A–6B, 15, A. 4718:what about cases like 4683:Cite journal requires 4637:Cite journal requires 4602:Cite journal requires 4437:Cite journal requires 4046: 3629:"See <whatever: --> 3461: 3176:I wrote nothing about 2917:template documentation 2827:whitelisted previously 2081:, or bad punctuation ( 2077:, bad capitalizations 2045:still allowing them). 934:→ Languillat, J. -C ( 6866:– via Newspapers.com. 6184:I just realized that 5411:Nope, definitely not. 4944:Cite book comparison 4891:. pp. 3–6, A–C, R–S, 4874:. pp. 3–6, A–C, R–S, 4848:Cite book comparison 4809:. pp. 3–6, A–C, R–S, 4792:. pp. 3–6, A–C, R–S, 4766:Cite book comparison 4038: 3985:tags are part of the 3038:Template:Cite journal 2073:, bad abbreviations ( 2002:added a "MOS style". 1691:For example, compare 1326:|name-list-format=CS1 897:or have other issues 655:|last#=Smith, John H. 42:of past discussions. 6041:Further DOI checking 5189:Phase out |vauthors= 4541:or <digit(s): --> 4510:dashify 3-A to 3–A. 3885:templates to create 3812:citation. (That is, 2640:Basu, A. K. (2017). 1441:first seek consensus 1164:could then see that 556:|author2=Fayyazuddin 6727:can you help here? 6672:can you help here? 6637:can you help here? 6473:1998Natur.391...51P 6429:1998Natur.391...51P 6385:1998Natur.391...51P 6326:Because arxivs are 5366:cost us information 4945: 4849: 4767: 4559: 4544:) are not modified: 4270: 3717:shortened citations 2851:Module:Citation/CS1 2608:A, K, Basu (2017). 1447:consensus, only to 957:is mis-abbreviated. 940:is mis-abbreviated. 643:|first#=john Howard 199:Smith, John Howard 155:|editor#-last=Smith 151:|first#=John Howard 6949:chicagotribune.com 6879:Unknown parameter 5969:within Knowledge? 5749:|name-list-format= 4943: 4847: 4765: 4557: 4543:<letter(s): --> 4268: 4222:Dashify issues too 3509:You don't see any 3482:in-source location 3288:this article from 3002:Template:Cite book 2374:). For one thing 2104:is not mixed with 2049:The default case ( 1959:in references but 1790:I think we should 1640:|author=John Smith 1443:. It doesn't even 965:|name-list-format= 923:has spacing issues 623:|last=Smith -Pelly 553:|author1=Riazuddin 265:Smith, John Howard 237:John Howard Smith 218:Smith John Howard 132:|name-list-format= 7132:Surname placement 7066:Trappist the monk 7040:Template:Cite web 6977:External link in 6767:Sfn for Episodes? 6723:Trappist the monk 6668:Trappist the monk 6633:Trappist the monk 6524:Trappist the monk 6225:Trappist the monk 6142:Trappist the monk 6095:Trappist the monk 5667:Trappist the monk 5286:Trappist the monk 5113:Trappist the monk 5018:Trappist the monk 4988: 4987: 4916:Trappist the monk 4900: 4899: 4818: 4817: 4714:Trappist the monk 4699:Trappist the monk 4650: 4649: 4540:<digit(s): --> 4494:Trappist the monk 4388:Trappist the monk 4329: 4328: 4092:Emir of Knowledge 3270:Trappist the monk 3235:Trappist the monk 3185:Trappist the monk 3149:Trappist the monk 3114:Trappist the monk 3060:Trappist the monk 3042:Emir of Knowledge 3010:Emir of Knowledge 2977:Emir of Knowledge 2962:Emir of Knowledge 2881:I know there are 2859:Trappist the monk 2231:Trappist the Monk 2138:For those with a 1571:|af=Last, F. M.}} 1563:WP:TemplateStyles 1467: 1162:User:Citation Bot 929:|last1=Languillat 909:|last2=Fitzgerald 849:|last2=Fitzgerald 829:|last2=Fitzgerald 811:|last2=Fitzgerald 793:|last2=Fitzgerald 775:|last2=Fitzgerald 762: 761: 526: 525: 468: 467: 410: 409: 352: 351: 273: 272: 241: 240: 222: 221: 203: 202: 118:New parameter: af 103: 102: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 7278: 7107: 7098: 7096: 7054: 7052: 7019: 7012: 7005: 6988: 6982: 6981: 6975: 6973: 6965: 6963: 6957: 6955: 6932: 6925: 6918: 6917: 6892: 6886: 6882: 6877: 6875: 6867: 6865: 6863: 6847: 6837: 6830: 6823: 6749: 6726: 6694: 6671: 6659: 6636: 6624: 6601: 6597: 6593: 6571: 6554: 6531: 6514: 6491: 6484: 6466: 6464:astro-ph/9712212 6440: 6422: 6420:astro-ph/9712212 6396: 6378: 6376:astro-ph/9712212 6337: 6320:alg-geom/9712032 6313: 6298: 6294: 6261: 6238: 6232: 6228: 6215: 6173: 6145: 6137: 6074: 6047:the DOI standard 6024: 6020: 6016: 6006: 5987: 5964: 5960: 5954:Vancouver System 5947: 5943: 5938: 5930: 5926: 5922: 5918: 5910: 5906: 5877: 5873: 5869: 5856: 5836: 5832: 5828: 5824: 5820: 5811: 5795: 5791: 5787: 5762: 5758: 5754: 5750: 5723: 5700: 5683:as a synonym? ♦ 5682: 5658: 5649: 5643: 5639: 5624: 5602: 5579: 5575: 5566: 5520: 5516: 5513:I like having a 5505: 5489: 5476: 5446: 5427: 5407: 5396: 5356: 5352: 5349: 5348:|first1=Diana R. 5346: 5338: 5334: 5323: 5300: 5272: 5264: 5257: 5249: 5243: 5240: 5236: 5226: 5209: 5206: 5203: 5200: 5196: 5165: 5142: 5138: 5132: 5104: 5096: 5090: 5082: 5078: 5074: 5065: 5042: 5036: 5013: 5009: 5005: 4984: 4971: 4958: 4946: 4896: 4879: 4862: 4850: 4814: 4797: 4780: 4768: 4744: 4721: 4717: 4692: 4686: 4681: 4679: 4671: 4662:Same types are: 4646: 4640: 4635: 4633: 4625: 4611: 4605: 4600: 4598: 4590: 4576: 4560: 4532: 4487: 4476: 4446: 4440: 4435: 4433: 4425: 4415: 4411: 4407: 4375: 4366: 4359: 4346: 4340: 4336: 4325: 4307: 4289: 4282:|journal=Journal 4271: 4263:Done in sandbox: 4256: 4233: 4229: 4202: 4196: 3984: 3983:...</ref: --> 3957: 3949: 3948:...</ref: --> 3937: 3933: 3927: 3910: 3904: 3896: 3884: 3878: 3860: 3856: 3850: 3825: 3819: 3794: 3786: 3778: 3772: 3768: 3762: 3660: 3637: 3614: 3606: 3597: 3591: 3458: 3222: 3216: 3108: 2985: 2980: 2944: 2938: 2930: 2926: 2922: 2914: 2910: 2904: 2900: 2894: 2890: 2884: 2806: 2784: 2776: 2775: 2738: 2710: 2688: 2658: 2652: 2645: 2634: 2627: 2621: 2613: 2533: 2470: 2440: 2417: 2409: 2401: 2377: 2360: 2337: 2333: 2325: 2322: 2318: 2317:|author#=U Thant 2314: 2309: 2256: 2234: 2193: 2167: 2164: 2160: 2157: 2153: 2149: 2145: 2134: 2130: 2122: 2111: 2107: 2103: 2099: 2091: 2084: 2080: 2076: 2072: 2064: 2060: 2056: 2052: 2024: 2001: 1989: 1940: 1876: 1852: 1848: 1842: 1836: 1830: 1817: 1765: 1742: 1738: 1734: 1730: 1685: 1657: 1653: 1649: 1645: 1641: 1637: 1633: 1621: 1599: 1576: 1572: 1553:Refined proposal 1539: 1492: 1454: 1434: 1426: 1386: 1357: 1335: 1331: 1327: 1310: 1271: 1265: 1255: 1232: 1220: 1194: 1171: 1167: 1159: 1155: 1151: 1147: 1143: 1127: 1106: 1101: 1088: 1065: 1062: 1058: 1016:First name first 1003: 999: 989: 966: 958: 956: 950: 947: 941: 939: 933: 930: 924: 922: 916: 913: 910: 906: 903: 902:|last1=Dickinson 892: 890: 886: 882: 878: 870: 862: 856: 853: 850: 847: 836: 833: 830: 827: 824: 823:|last1=Dickinson 818: 815: 812: 809: 806: 805:|last1=Dickinson 800: 797: 794: 791: 788: 787:|last1=Dickinson 782: 779: 776: 773: 770: 769:|last1=Dickinson 754: 752: 748: 744: 740: 735: 729: 726: 720: 713: 707: 704: 698: 696: 693: 689: 681: 677: 672: 666: 664: 660: 656: 652: 648: 644: 640: 636: 632: 628: 624: 620: 616: 612: 608: 604: 600: 596: 592: 584: 571: 567: 563: 560: 557: 554: 550: 546: 542: 538: 516: 503: 490: 477: 472: 471: 458: 445: 432: 419: 414: 413: 400: 387: 374: 361: 356: 355: 342: 329: 316: 303: 298: 297: 259: 245: 244: 231: 226: 225: 212: 207: 206: 193: 188: 187: 159: 156: 152: 149: 144: 137: 133: 129: 125: 113: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 7286: 7285: 7281: 7280: 7279: 7277: 7276: 7275: 7252: 7206: 7170:J. Johnson (JJ) 7134: 7094: 7087: 7050: 7043: 7036: 7034:Slide parameter 7015: 7008: 6976: 6966: 6961: 6953: 6951: 6943: 6942: 6928: 6921: 6915: 6914: 6878: 6868: 6861: 6859: 6856:Chicago Tribune 6850: 6845: 6833: 6826: 6818: 6812: 6769: 6728: 6720: 6673: 6665: 6638: 6630: 6603: 6587: 6533: 6521: 6493: 6448: 6404: 6360: 6311: 6296: 6292: 6271: 6240: 6236: 6230: 6222: 6194: 6152: 6139: 6131: 6053: 6043: 5896: 5894:Arbitrary break 5880:J. Johnson (JJ) 5731:J. Johnson (JJ) 5702: 5685:J. Johnson (JJ) 5652: 5647: 5581: 5577: 5573: 5538:J. Johnson (JJ) 5487: 5455: 5431: 5412: 5354: 5302: 5262: 5247: 5199:|last1=Ceesdale 5191: 5144: 5136: 5130: 5099: 5094: 5091:. This works: 5084: 5080: 5076: 5044: 5040: 5034: 4989: 4979: 4966: 4956: 4954: 4952: 4901: 4887: 4870: 4860: 4858: 4856: 4819: 4805: 4788: 4778: 4776: 4774: 4723: 4711: 4682: 4672: 4665: 4651: 4636: 4626: 4619: 4601: 4591: 4584: 4574: 4572: 4570: 4568: 4566: 4542:<hyphen: --> 4539:<hyphen: --> 4511: 4485: 4455: 4436: 4426: 4419: 4369: 4364: 4349: 4344: 4330: 4315: 4297: 4287: 4285: 4283: 4281: 4279: 4277: 4235: 4224: 4200: 4194: 4173:J. Johnson (JJ) 4012:J. Johnson (JJ) 3931: 3925: 3913:J. Johnson (JJ) 3908: 3902: 3882: 3876: 3854: 3848: 3834:J. Johnson (JJ) 3823: 3817: 3776: 3770: 3766: 3760: 3725:J. Johnson (JJ) 3639: 3631: 3608: 3600: 3595: 3589: 3551:J. Johnson (JJ) 3519:J. Johnson (JJ) 3460: 3456: 3356:J. Johnson (JJ) 3218: 3214:your statements 3212: 3102: 2982: 2974: 2942: 2936: 2908: 2902: 2898: 2892: 2888: 2882: 2875: 2815: 2785: 2782: 2780: 2773: 2769: 2717: 2704: 2667: 2654: 2639: 2614: 2607: 2578:J. Johnson (JJ) 2512: 2495:J. Johnson (JJ) 2419: 2412:Jennifer 8. Lee 2372:Jennifer 8. Lee 2339: 2303: 2289:J. Johnson (JJ) 2235: 2200: 2172: 2144:|af=Last, F. M. 2042: 2003: 1995: 1968: 1919: 1899:J. Johnson (JJ) 1861:J. Johnson (JJ) 1744: 1740: 1736: 1733:|af=Last, F. M. 1712: 1664: 1658:. Often in the 1615: 1578: 1566: 1555: 1518: 1471: 1457:J. Johnson (JJ) 1405: 1392:I'm not saying 1289: 1269: 1263: 1234: 1214: 1173: 1121: 1067: 1064:|first3=Jianguo 968: 952: 935: 918: 912:|first2=F. S.K. 858: 758: 757: 747:|editor#-first= 736: 732: 727: 723: 714: 710: 705: 701: 680:|af=Last, First 673: 669: 647:|first#=John h. 627:|first=Devonte, 585: 581: 302:|af=Last, F. M. 292:Specific style 192:|af=Last, First 141:You could have 135: 134:(which accepts 120: 115: 114: 109: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 7284: 7282: 7251: 7248: 7247: 7246: 7208:I was told to 7205: 7202: 7201: 7200: 7199: 7198: 7188:David Eppstein 7165: 7164: 7159: 7158: 7133: 7130: 7129: 7128: 7127: 7126: 7125: 7124: 7062: 7035: 7032: 7031: 7030: 7029: 7028: 7027: 7026: 7025: 7024: 6940: 6893: 6881:|subscription= 6848: 6816: 6811: 6808: 6807: 6806: 6768: 6765: 6764: 6763: 6762: 6761: 6760: 6759: 6758: 6757: 6756: 6755: 6754: 6753: 6707: 6706: 6705: 6704: 6703: 6702: 6701: 6700: 6699: 6698: 6564: 6563: 6562: 6486: 6485: 6442: 6441: 6398: 6397: 6324: 6323: 6312:foobar/YYMM### 6308: 6281: 6280: 6270: 6267: 6266: 6265: 6239:fuckup above? 6182: 6181: 6180: 6179: 6178: 6177: 6134:David Eppstein 6119:David Eppstein 6091: 6042: 6039: 6038: 6037: 6001: 5986:|authorn-link= 5981: 5949: 5935:. In addition 5895: 5892: 5891: 5890: 5863: 5862: 5861: 5860: 5782: 5781: 5780: 5779: 5778: 5777: 5776: 5775: 5774: 5745: 5744: 5743: 5742: 5741: 5663: 5662: 5661: 5660: 5659: 5634: 5633: 5632: 5631: 5630: 5629: 5628: 5534: 5511: 5510: 5509: 5485: 5429: 5410: 5367: 5360: 5345:|last1=Samuels 5342: 5282: 5280: 5277: 5276: 5275: 5274: 5273: 5271:</span: --> 5260: 5259: 5258: 5256:</span: --> 5211: 5190: 5187: 5186: 5185: 5184: 5183: 5182: 5181: 5180: 5179: 5178: 5177: 5176: 5175: 5174: 5173: 5172: 5171: 5170: 5169: 5109: 5108: 5107: 5106: 5105: 5031:Help:CS1#Pages 5014: 4986: 4985: 4977: 4973: 4972: 4964: 4960: 4959: 4957:|title=Title}} 4950: 4941: 4940: 4939: 4938: 4937: 4936: 4935: 4934: 4933: 4932: 4931: 4930: 4929: 4926: 4898: 4897: 4885: 4881: 4880: 4868: 4864: 4863: 4861:|title=Title}} 4854: 4845: 4844: 4843: 4842: 4841: 4840: 4839: 4838: 4837: 4836: 4835: 4834: 4833: 4816: 4815: 4803: 4799: 4798: 4786: 4782: 4781: 4779:|title=Title}} 4772: 4763: 4762: 4761: 4760: 4759: 4758: 4757: 4756: 4755: 4754: 4753: 4752: 4751: 4720:|pages=L21-L23 4709: 4695: 4694: 4693: 4648: 4647: 4617: 4613: 4612: 4582: 4578: 4577: 4567:{{cite journal 4564: 4555: 4554: 4553: 4552: 4551: 4550: 4549: 4548: 4547: 4546: 4545: 4490: 4489: 4488: 4449: 4448: 4447: 4384: 4380: 4379: 4378: 4377: 4376: 4362: 4361: 4360: 4327: 4326: 4313: 4309: 4308: 4295: 4291: 4290: 4278:{{cite journal 4275: 4266: 4265: 4264: 4223: 4220: 4192: 4190: 4189: 4188: 4187: 4186: 4185: 4184: 4183: 4150: 4149: 4148: 4147: 4146: 4145: 4144: 4143: 4121: 4120: 4119: 4118: 4117: 4116: 4102: 4031: 4030: 4029: 4028: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4022: 3999: 3998: 3997: 3996: 3995: 3994: 3993: 3992: 3991: 3990: 3952:in addition to 3939: 3828: 3827: 3801: 3800: 3757:full citations 3752: 3751: 3746: 3744: 3743: 3742: 3741: 3740: 3739: 3738: 3737: 3736: 3735: 3723:a footnote? ♦ 3700: 3699: 3698: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3694: 3693: 3617:David Eppstein 3586: 3585: 3584: 3583: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3575: 3502: 3501: 3500: 3499: 3498: 3497: 3469: 3453: 3451: 3450: 3449: 3448: 3447: 3446: 3410: 3409: 3408: 3407: 3392: 3391: 3390: 3389: 3388: 3387: 3386: 3385: 3384: 3383: 3382: 3381: 3380: 3379: 3378: 3377: 3376: 3375: 3374: 3373: 3372: 3371: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3367: 3366: 3323: 3322: 3321: 3320: 3319: 3318: 3317: 3316: 3315: 3314: 3313: 3312: 3311: 3310: 3309: 3308: 3307: 3306: 3305: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3301: 3300: 3299: 3298: 3297: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3280: 3266: 3231: 3228: 3181: 3145: 3110: 3081: 3056: 3052: 2874: 2871: 2870: 2869: 2855: 2814: 2811: 2791: 2771: 2768: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2742: 2647: 2646: 2629: 2628: 2597: 2596: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2589: 2588: 2573: 2555:David Eppstein 2540: 2490: 2489:inconsistency. 2482: 2481: 2480: 2479: 2478: 2477: 2476: 2475: 2474: 2453: 2386:deal with it. 2381: 2368: 2367: 2366: 2365: 2364: 2313:|author#=Thant 2306:David Eppstein 2301: 2300: 2299: 2285:J Harlan Bretz 2269:David Eppstein 2203:David Eppstein 2170: 2169: 2159:|first=John H. 2154:is used, both 2136: 2113: 2090:|af=First Last 2086: 2041: 2038: 2037: 2036: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2028: 1953: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1844: 1838: 1832: 1819: 1811: 1803: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1769: 1721:(2): 138–149. 1711:, you'll have 1626:mess which is 1554: 1551: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1547: 1546: 1545: 1544: 1543: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1497: 1496: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1322: 1321: 1320: 1319: 1318: 1317: 1316: 1315: 1314: 1138:the style used 1096: 1095: 1094: 1093: 1092: 1042:David Eppstein 1025: 1024: 1023: 1020: 1017: 1014: 1011: 1008: 1002:|author-order= 961: 960: 955:|first1=J. B.C 949:|first1=J. B.C 943: 926: 895: 894: 861:|af=F. M. Last 855:|af=F. M. Last 839: 838: 820: 817:|af=F. M. Last 802: 784: 781:|af=Last, F.M. 760: 759: 756: 755: 743:|editor#-last= 730: 721: 708: 699: 667: 659:|first#=et al. 578: 577: 574: 573: 570:|af=F. M. Last 533: 532: 528: 527: 524: 523: 520: 517: 511: 510: 507: 504: 498: 497: 494: 491: 485: 484: 481: 478: 469: 466: 465: 462: 459: 453: 452: 449: 446: 440: 439: 436: 433: 427: 426: 423: 420: 418:|af=F. M. Last 411: 408: 407: 404: 401: 395: 394: 391: 388: 382: 381: 378: 375: 369: 368: 365: 362: 360:|af=Last F. M. 353: 350: 349: 346: 343: 337: 336: 333: 330: 324: 323: 320: 317: 315:|af=Last, F.M. 311: 310: 307: 304: 294: 293: 290: 287: 284: 280: 279: 275: 274: 271: 270: 268: 267:Smith, John H. 266: 263: 260: 254: 253: 250: 248: 242: 239: 238: 235: 232: 230:|af=First Last 223: 220: 219: 216: 213: 211:|af=Last First 204: 201: 200: 197: 194: 184: 183: 177: 174: 171: 167: 166: 165:Core proposal 162: 161: 119: 116: 107: 105: 104: 101: 100: 95: 92: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 7283: 7274: 7273: 7269: 7265: 7261: 7257: 7249: 7245: 7241: 7237: 7233: 7232: 7231: 7230: 7226: 7222: 7221:37.110.218.43 7217: 7213: 7211: 7210:discuss first 7203: 7197: 7193: 7189: 7184: 7181: 7180: 7179: 7175: 7171: 7167: 7166: 7161: 7160: 7156: 7151: 7150: 7149: 7148: 7144: 7140: 7131: 7123: 7119: 7115: 7111: 7104:This is what 7103: 7102: 7101: 7097: 7092: 7091: 7085: 7081: 7077: 7076: 7075: 7071: 7067: 7063: 7060: 7059: 7058: 7057: 7053: 7048: 7047: 7041: 7033: 7023: 7020: 7018: 7013: 7011: 7001: 7000: 6999: 6995: 6991: 6986: 6971: 6960: 6950: 6946: 6938: 6937: 6936: 6933: 6931: 6926: 6924: 6916:{{dead link}} 6912: 6911: 6910: 6906: 6902: 6898: 6894: 6890: 6873: 6857: 6853: 6849: 6844: 6843: 6842: 6841: 6838: 6836: 6831: 6829: 6815: 6809: 6805: 6801: 6797: 6793: 6789: 6788: 6787: 6786: 6782: 6778: 6774: 6766: 6752: 6747: 6743: 6739: 6735: 6731: 6724: 6719: 6718: 6717: 6716: 6715: 6714: 6713: 6712: 6711: 6710: 6709: 6708: 6697: 6692: 6688: 6684: 6680: 6676: 6669: 6664: 6663: 6662: 6657: 6653: 6649: 6645: 6641: 6634: 6629: 6628: 6627: 6622: 6618: 6614: 6610: 6606: 6591: 6586: 6585: 6584: 6580: 6576: 6567: 6566: 6565: 6559: 6558: 6557: 6552: 6548: 6544: 6540: 6536: 6529: 6525: 6520: 6519: 6518: 6517: 6512: 6508: 6504: 6500: 6496: 6482: 6481:10.1038/34124 6478: 6474: 6470: 6465: 6460: 6456: 6452: 6447: 6446: 6445: 6438: 6437:10.1038/34124 6434: 6430: 6426: 6421: 6416: 6412: 6408: 6403: 6402: 6401: 6394: 6393:10.1038/34124 6390: 6386: 6382: 6377: 6372: 6368: 6364: 6359: 6358: 6357: 6356:This is fine 6354: 6352: 6348: 6343: 6341: 6333: 6329: 6321: 6317: 6309: 6306: 6302: 6290: 6289: 6288: 6285: 6279: 6278: 6273: 6272: 6268: 6264: 6259: 6255: 6251: 6247: 6243: 6235: 6226: 6221: 6220: 6219: 6218: 6213: 6209: 6205: 6201: 6197: 6192: 6187: 6176: 6171: 6167: 6163: 6159: 6155: 6149: 6143: 6135: 6130: 6129: 6128: 6124: 6120: 6116: 6111: 6106: 6105: 6104: 6100: 6096: 6092: 6088: 6084: 6080: 6079: 6078: 6077: 6072: 6068: 6064: 6060: 6056: 6051: 6048: 6040: 6036: 6032: 6028: 6012: 6010: 6002: 6000: 5996: 5992: 5988: 5982: 5980: 5976: 5972: 5968: 5955: 5950: 5934: 5931:may be found 5914: 5902: 5898: 5897: 5893: 5889: 5885: 5881: 5865: 5864: 5859: 5854: 5851: 5848: 5847: 5840: 5816: 5815: 5814: 5809: 5806: 5803: 5802: 5783: 5773: 5770: 5766: 5746: 5740: 5736: 5732: 5728: 5727: 5726: 5721: 5717: 5713: 5709: 5705: 5696: 5695: 5694: 5690: 5686: 5678: 5677: 5676: 5672: 5668: 5664: 5656: 5651: 5650: 5646: 5645: 5635: 5627: 5622: 5619: 5616: 5615: 5607: 5606: 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