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up to par, as you say, and right now it reads more like an essay (mostly mentioning examples, individual views and long quotes) than an encyclopedic article. In particular the long section on continuity through classical antiquity is a bit strange since it is not really possible for a serious scholar to oppose that; mainstream
Assyriology considers the last stage of
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1262:
Hi, I didn't check any of the archives, just the article as it stood (determining which sources held up and which did not) and the relevant literature I could find. In any case it seems to me that
Wilmshurst's views are in the minority – can't deem them to be fringe since the subject is a bit obscure
956:
The article length is not inherently an issue and neither are POV claims (as long as they are marked as claims and ideas by particular authors and inherent biases are made clear). The article does need to be overhauled though, and is something I hope to get to eventually. Some of the sources are not
1455:
Now moving on to a Syriac dictionary by Mor Touma Audo, a
Aramean-Chaldean scholar and archbishop of Urmia, Iran. This is important because it is a Syriac dictionary. Mor Audo published ”The treasury of the Syriac language” in the year 1897 and it is still used today by Syriac monks, teachers and
1296:
Yes, this paragraph is not perfect. I've moved it down to the next section, where both authors are mentioned by name, and reworked it a bit (for instance adding that both names, although having clear
Mesopotamian connections, do appear in the Bible - also tried to make it less of a refutation and
1036:
The lexicon of the modern dialects, moreover, has preserved some words from antiquity that are not found in the earlier literary languages. These include several words from
Akkadian. They are usually connected with agriculture. Several such cases can be found in the dialect of Qaraqosh. In that
598:
There seem to be a fair few people who have a very specific problem with the
Assyrians on Wiki, and yet those same people rather hypocritically never challenge or raise continuity claims made by a whole host of other peoples on Wiki, even though many are far less well supported academically and
1224:
Though some opponents to
Assyrian continuity, such as David Wilmshurst, have claimed that Assyrian names ceased being used in the Christian period and that this in turn was evidence of a lack of continuity, ancient names were not wholly abandoned. ... Modern Assyrian authors ... contend that a
893:
Many of the opposing views in this article are from activists who cite each other, and collaborate together. Beth
Mardutho, founded by Syriacist George Kiraz, which seeks to "promote the study and preservation of the Syriac heritage" has previously hosted Adam Becker as a visiting lecturer in
843:
To clean the appearance of this article up, maybe a timeline extending from the earliest evidence of
Assyrian people up until the present day could be drafted. Organizing the page into periods of history is easier to digest as we're dealing with a people who's history extends to millennia. In
778:
And the ancient
Assyrian empire, was the first real, empire in history. What do I mean, it had many different peoples included in the empire, all speaking Aramaic, and becoming what may be called, "Assyrian citizens." That was the first time in history, that we have this. For example, Elamite
1230:
This paragraph is set up as a refutation of Wilmshurst, but is unconvincing. It cites two examples of biblical names and then admits that the absence of ancient Assyrian names doesn't really mean anything. Baldassare and Baltasar were in use in western Europe by the 15th century.
1059:
It confirms again that there are loanwords in modern Aramaic dialects and also offers some examples but I cannot verify where the claim that there are more than 300 comes from, unless I am missing something. Page 92 states that some researchers found a Neo-Babylonian tablet with
1289:
This paragraph is set up as a refutation of Wilmshurst, but is unconvincing. It cites two examples of biblical names and then admits that the absence of ancient Assyrian names doesn't really mean anything. Baldassare and Baltasar were in use in western Europe by the 15th
1334:
Now when you don’t know what a word means, what do you do? You look it up in a dictionary! Luckily for you I have done that job for you. I have looked up the word Oromoyo (Aramean) in two authoritative Syriac-French (Syriaque-Francais) and English-Syriac dictionary.
1001:
The article says there's 14 loanwords from Akkadian not attested to in other languages and cites a book from 1974. A more current study by Dr. Geoffrey Khan in 2007 claims there's over 300 loanwords from Akkadian with a majority not attested to in other languages:
1120:. They know both classical syriac and sureth, so I will reach out to them on their talk page to see if they can explain the process they followed in case anyone reading this wants to continue to hash out the table. The citation above this table is to this book
1225:
decrease in ancient pagan names invoking gods ... is hardly surprising given the Christianization of the Assyrians; similar cases of native names being increasingly replaced by Biblically-derived names are also known from numerous other Christianized peoples.
1157:
The paper itself is a study of 282 words previously believed to be Aramaic loanwords into Akkadian; I've added its findings that 15 of those were actually Akkadian loanwords into Aramaic and that the direction of the loan could not be determined in 22 cases.
1124:. If you look at page 84-114 you can see over 300 signs mapped to their ideograms which is potentially where the "300" claim is coming from. However, I don't believe the source actually backs the claim (not that the claim cannot potentially be true.)
684:
in that Anti-Assyrianists are losing the argument about Assyrian continuity. And that my friends is the sole motivation here. The contributor who proposed this is an avowed opponent of Assyrian continuity, and a vociferous denier of Assyrian heritage.
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of Akkadian names recorded in their Aramaic versions so perhaps whoever cited this for the Suret article got confused here? That said I've added that Kaufman's study was made in 1974 which leaves open the possibility of more recent works finding more.
1281:), though people who identify as Syriac (and equivalents) translate it as their respective identities. I've removed "is not technically a different..." from both instances and simply kept that the term likely derives from the ancient
606:
of John Joseph as essentially the entire intro to this page, and expunge the mention of Saggs, Frye, Parpola, Biggs etc is a prime example of Anti-Assyrian POV. This is bizarre even on academic terms, considering that John Joseph is
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Dr. Khan is one of the world's preeminent scholars of semitic languages. A bit of his work was cited before the article was pared down, but I think it's worthy to mention this tidbit regarding linguistic continuity.
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Yeah, the table suggests that there are more than the ones Kaufman found nearly 50 years ago. If you track down a more recent source for the number of words it can definitely be added both here and there.
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Nationalism in regards to the Assyrians is essentially about their struggle for unity, self determination, autonomy or independence, and not their historical origins, the two are not synonymous.
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Thanks for the followup. I appreciate your work to improve the quality of the article. I agree, there's a lot to be overhauled and things can be restructured to make it read more intelligibly.
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On the topic of their historical origins, I believe the attempt to merge this section with Assyrian nationalism is in fact really an attempt to bury Assyrian identity, which is well supported.
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What does this mean? I don't see how the relationship between the words has any bearing on identities, or else we would have to say that "Frankish" is not a different identity from "French".
1267:
What does this mean? I don't see how the relationship between the words has any bearing on identities, or else we would have to say that "Frankish" is not a different identity from "French".
937:. David Wilmshurst has used George Kiraz's academic publishing company, Gorgias Press as a publisher. In the first link I mentioned, John Joseph himself thanks Kiraz. The list goes on.
1079:
You're right - the citation never actually claims there's 300 loanwords thanks for correcting it. Maybe the editor did in fact get confused with the "300 examples" bit. The table here
1083:
definitely has a decent amount of examples. Not exactly sure how they were able to map it all out but if I'm able to find a more exhaustive list, I'll be sure to update the article.
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in fact an Assyriologist, Iranologist, Orientalist, Classicist, Archaeologist, Anthropologist, Archaeogeneticist, Geneticist or Linguist, while those whitewashed from the intro
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musicians, were brought to Nineveh, and they were 'made Assyrians' which means, that Assyria, was more than a small country, it was the empire, the whole Fertile Crescent.
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I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
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recognised experts on the subject. Joseph is merely a generic academician, and others, like Fiey and the rather obscure Wilmshurst, are merely theologians.
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I can talk for hours about the interrelation between the word Suryoye (Syrian) and Oromoye (Aramean) but I hope by now that some confusion has been clear.
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This article is very one sided and acts as if this is settled science. It should also include arguments that go against the continuity which are plenty.
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creating sections for different periods of history and populating all the information chronologically would increase the usefulness of this article.
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By the reasoning put forward for a merge here, the histories of pretty much every nation, ethnicity, people and race should be merged with
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809:: Frye, R. N. (October 1992). "Assyria and Syria: Synonyms" (PDF). Journal of Near Eastern Studies 51 (4): 281–285. doi:10.1086/373570.
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with a merge for the pretty simple reason that ethnic/cultural/historical continuity from some point in the past does not equate to
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denotes a storeroom (for grain) in the roof of a house. It is reasonably certain that this is a descendant of the Akkkadian term
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On a sidenote Nebuchadnezzar is surely a more uncommon and noteworthy name than Balthazar, especially in a Christian context?
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The page cited from Khan's book in the Suret language article (p. 110) has the following passage relating to loanwords:
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1130 Ben-Hadad ben-had-ad' from 1121 and 1908; son of Hadad; Ben-Hadad, the name of several Syrian kings:--Ben-hadad.
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Another authoritative dictionary is the English one, under the name Oromoyo it gives a similar explaining, that is;
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article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
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This was one of the more comprehensive edits which began to map the Akkadian words to their Assyrian equivalents
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This article is already way too long and should be shortened. Post-hoc publications lacking academic rigor like
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Just perused the edit, that's an interesting find. Thanks for fishing it out and including it in the article.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Suret_language&type=revision&diff=909953204&oldid=909807402
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1464:. And if we read in his preface he writes quotes like ’’The Aramean name is our genuine and original name’’.
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Any meaningful connective tissue between them should at least be considered for inclusion in this article
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than vice versa (p 59). It does however not give a number - it cites for this "AIOA" and M. Sokoloff's
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1418:. I am yet to find a biblical translation that doesn't translate Syria into Aram and Aram-naharaim.
1375:, and its inhabitants; also the name of the son of Shem, a grandson of Nahor, and of an Israelite:--
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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bishops. If we look under the word Oromoyo what we find is the term Oromoye renowned in Suryoye:
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I disagree. The article is not about nationalism or any political concept, but rather of
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Closing, given that the discussion is stale and there is no consensus for the proposal.
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In the French dictionary under the name Oromoyo it gives the explanation of two names:
1238:) used to edit here. His last comments on this article, from 2015, are in the archive.
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was responsible for destroying Jerusalem and initiating the Babylonian captivity.
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to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
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In the Hebrew dictionary the word Aram gives us the impression of two names;
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This is perhaps badly phrased; I believe that modern Assyrians do translate
1138:
Yes, that source does not appear to back this particular claim either. This
1117:
1285:, which (however the implications are regarded) is not really in dispute.
1049:'pile of straw (usually barley)', which could well be related to Akkadian
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Removing POV claims either in support or opposition of Assyrian continuity
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Aramaya, Aramaye hanaw den Suryaye, Lishono suryaya aramaya, suryaya
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says that one of the results of Aramean migrations into Assyria was
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In German litterateur; regarding their ”Semetic studies” the word ”
411:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of
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by John Joseph and promoted by the religio-political organization
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I think the reasoning behind a merge with Assyrian Nationalism is
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762 'Aramiyth ar-aw-meeth' feminine of 761; (only adverbial)in
1045:'barn, storehouse'. Another possible example in the dialect is
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the borrowing of a large number of Akkadian words into Aramaic
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more presenting what both say). Let me know what you think.
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of a particular people. The two just aren't synonymous!!!
738:
in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
1462:
Aramaic, Arameans i.e Syriacs, Aramaic language, Syriac
1277:
as "Assyrian" (at the very least it's the term used in
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Updating the number of Akkadian words used by Assyrians
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https://archive.org/details/assyriangrammarw00mercuoft
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758 'Aram arawm' from the same as 759; the highland;
1308:
but it's also the name of one of the three wise men;
313:. If you would like to participate, please visit the
1206:. I do have a few concerns after skimming through.
1148:
much larger number of Akkadian loanwords in Aramaic
1081:https://en.wikipedia.org/Suret_language#Vocabulary
1004:https://en.wikipedia.org/Suret_language#Vocabulary
445:This article has not yet received a rating on the
1346:. (Dictionnaire Syriaque-Francais, Louis Costaz)
305:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of
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1152:New Akkadian Words in Jewish Babylonian Aramaic
599:historically than Assyrian continuity claims.
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1382:761 Arammiy ar-am-mee' patrial from 758; an
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258:It is of interest to the following
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1377:Aram, Mesopotamia, Syria, Syrians
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766:"Assyria and Syria: Synonyms"
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425:Knowledge:WikiProject History
419:and see a list of open tasks.
323:Knowledge:WikiProject Assyria
42:Put new text under old text.
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816:: Richard N. Frye,
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19:This is the
1368:(suryoye)
795:|coauthors=
671:Nationalism
660:Nationalism
569:historicity
520:ClueBot III
250:Start-class
148:free images
31:not a forum
1504:Categories
1396::--in the
1306:Belshazzar
1140:2011 paper
1043:bēt ḫašīmi
909:2022-02-09
878:2022-02-09
551:Monochrome
1302:Balthazar
826:AnomieBOT
682:political
677:concept.
675:Political
540:Dbachmann
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1450:Arameans
1431:Arameans
1290:century.
1283:assūrāyu
917:citation
846:Ramsin93
786:cite web
764:(1992).
689:unsigned
656:Disagree
619:unsigned
575:unsigned
515:365 days
474:Archives
307:Assyrian
207:365 days
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1448:” and ”
1440:” and ”
1394:Aramean
1384:Aramite
1351:Aramean
1340:Araméen
1275:Suryāyā
1236:Djwilms
1212:Suryāyā
1198:Rewrite
1039:baxšimə
959:ancient
709:Klbrain
664:history
638:Support
559:Monitor
422:History
413:History
372:History
347:on the
320:Assyria
279:Assyria
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1442:Syrian
1402:Syriac
1398:Syrian
1366:Syriac
1355:Syrian
1051:raḫīṣu
1047:raxiṣa
888:WP:POV
256:scale.
126:Google
1438:Syria
1423:Syria
1412:Syria
1258:Srnec
1240:Srnec
812:From
805:From
755:From
604:views
533:Merge
483:Index
191:Index
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1492:talk
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1446:Aram
1429:and
1427:Aram
1416:Aram
1364:and
1362:Aram
1353:and
1342:and
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1118:334a
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933:help
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162:FENS
136:news
73:and
1386:or
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339:Top
176:TWL
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