Talk:Finno-Ugric languages - Knowledge (XXG)

3791:

either House of King or House of Royal in English language. There are hundred of similar examples which follows the same rule in both Hungarian and Finnish (also Estonian) languages. Big Russian language as it is today is very young language compared to Ancient Old Slavonic Proto Language. There are several examples where Finno Ugrian principle was adopted in Big Russian place names. Just to point out the use to name places along on that time "roads" and "highways" e.g. rivers. In the areas which were inhabited by the Finno Ugrians originally lived in plateau between Veixeli (Vistula) and Uirali (Ural) and in coniferous forest zone from Rava bend (Great Volga bend) to Ice Sea (Arctic Sea) one may found thousands of place names still in 1:200.000 Russian topographic maps named (copied from) originally named by Finno Ugrians as; Ala-, Keski-, Ylä-, and Pien-, Suur- or Iso-, which were transliterated in Big Russian language quite late in historical times as; Nizhnij-,(-jaja, - jeje, - ije). Srednij-, (-jaja, - jeje, - ije). Verhnij- (jaja, - jeje, - ije), Malyi-, (- jaja, - jeje, -ije). Bolshoj-, (- jaja, - jeje, - ije). But when one goes out of this area the naming following this principle end to the wall. I am not a linguistic, but I have eyes, can read and write to observe matters such as these, already noted by scholars in St.Petersburg Academy of Science more than a hundred years ago. Also the naming lakes, rivers, and other water sources followed ancient Finnish style to Black- or White-. One can quess for which reasons. All Finns, whose grand mothers lived long enough (those born in late 1800´s) know the principle, because she told them why such a naming had been created for over hundreds of generations and still used in Finno Ugrian world. The first Russian villages which have still original Baltic names appear according to 1:200.000 map just west of River Zhizdra around town named Kozelsk (Koziel or Kozel) in Kaluga Province and still named Griva (Mouth). All around them are villages named after the old Finno Ugrian system. Nearby is also Djatkovo, an ancient center of Comb Ceramic Culture, which usually is linked direct to Finno Ugrians.

4367:(more technically speaking: morphosyntax; possibly including the borrowing but not replacement of weakly bounded morphemes, as well as both lexical and grammatical calques, that is, structural influences), i. e., exactly what is postulated for Samoyedic. This is the "language maintenance" scenario in the typological scheme of Thomason and Kaufman (1988). Think Latin influence on early Brythonic or Albanian (Basque is another example), or Iranian influence on Armenian. Only when the contact influence becomes overwhelming, the native morphosyntax tends to erode as well in addition to the replacement of a strong majority of the native lexicon; this can result in a largely relexified and partly "regrammarified" language, as in the case of "mixed" languages, and this is also what we see in cases of language attrition (it could be argued that "mixed languages" are frozen in a state of attrition, and have avoided the road to complete assimilation and extinction even more narrowly than Brythonic, Albanian or Armenian have). Samoyedic has never gone that far because it retains the Uralic morphosyntax to an overwhelming degree. Lexical influence always precedes grammatical influence, at least in a language maintenance situation; that's a basic result of language contact research. 1919:. I can send you the layered original, if you like. Note, however, that if you drop Yukaghir, you'd want to choose a different area, and again different for Finno-Ugric (no need showing all of Siberia if you only want to map Finnic and Ugric). What you could do is just fiddle with the colours, so that related languages have similar colours (although I conciously avoided that, because I did not want the map to be accused of being suggestive of one 'theory'. although it still is, and maybe there is no way to win this). I don't know how widely accepted the Ural-Yukaghir theory is. Ruhlen presents it as disputed, but as majority opinion. If you remove Yukaghir, I fear you create a precedent, and since Uralic is also disputed, people will ask to remove Samoyedic too, which is strictly speaking inappropriate for this article. I honestly don't know which is the best presentation, but I do think it is helpful to see the distribution of these groups. 1206:"Dutch-Hungarian linguist László Marácz here presents the usual tin-foil hatted conspiracy theories about Finno-Ugric language relationships being the result a conspiracuy between Austrians, communists and intelligent snails from the star system of Epsilon Eridani (OK, not the latter one, but you get the picture) to oppress the Magyar nationality and obscure their true origins and linguistic relationships (with, of course, the Sumerians, which as the builders of the first civilization happen to be a bit more prestigious). It contains a wonderful rant against László Honti - someone who, as opposed to Marácz, knows about historical linguistics. Anyway, the piece is morbidly fascinating in its pathology, in the same manner a train wreck is fascinating." 2562:

recognized as a substrate vocabulary has no Uralic connection. The very few words which have Uralic counterparts have marginal distribution also in Uralic side and are thus most probably substrate loans in Uralic, just like they are substrate loans in Germanic or other Indo-European branches, too. Between Finnish and Hungarian there are a plenty of common words, and though they are quite dissimilar, they have regular sound correspondences. Considering the linguistic evidence I would state that "there is enough evidence to say with certainty that everything Wiik has sad is wrong". The substrate language(s) in question really have nothing to do with Uralic languages. --

1694:: We are saying that the term is obsolete, but there seem to be real disputes about it. At least, as of 1987, Ruhlen gives a series of different suggestions. Maybe the 'obsolete' should be toned down. Anyway, 'disputes' is now a subsection of 'classification', intended to contain ongoing disputes (as opposed to historical ones, which go to the 'History' section. Marcantonio is also disputing FU classification, by contesting the family even exists, and appears also under 'disputes'. I am still open towards an inclusion of Maracz, somewhere. Maybe we should link him from the 'other superfamilies' sentence? Although I am not sure he positively suggests 'Ugro-Sumerian'. 1974:

beyond that. I would make another map, just for Finno-Ugric, but this map would have to be more detailed than just showing "Here is Finno-Permic. Here is Ugric", i.e. I need a source to do a decent FU map. As for Finnic vs. Finno-Permic, I know. Sometimes Finno-Permic and Finnic are used synonymously (cf. Finno-Ugric vs. *Ugro-Finno-Permic). I just copied the map's legend as it was, there is no claim in this that would conflict with the listing on this article. You may argue that since the map is not about FU

4644:

Given that it doesn't seem to have been discussed in the Talk page before, is there a reason no such list is included? If not, I'll add one as a new section, but I don't want to research and write one just to have it deleted. There may be debate on the inclusion of some particular languages, to the extent that the Finno-Ugric designation is debated, but I still think a list would be useful to most readers, just as the corresponding lists appear prominently in the articles on Romance and Slavic languages.

3556:

no evidence!). In fact, we should start talking about a process of reverse order: Slavic languge taking words from Hungarian. It is well known that Romanian (or Wallachian) language took a lot of words like "city" and even "Erdély"(Ardeul)=Transylvania, so I am pointing that it is possible from Slavic, too. An example could be "král"="király"=king, which is supposed to come from Charlemagne, but maybe, "király" is referring to "kerül"=to border something? I could cite more examples.

3536:

there. They should do this very agressively, and kill a lot of people, though no archeological sites could be found for mass murder. They still are half apes, as the language is still poor (yet the Hungarian craftmanship is very developed - what a paradox!). So the Hungarians start to migrate a lot of words from Slav, but they still need to wait till 13-14 century for the Ottomans to start to attack Hungary and hand over words so they can call the goat now "kecske", at last!

742: 721: 637: 616: 2514:

explained that genetical evidence points towards a certain people arriving from Ukraine after the Ice Age and that he thought there was a possibility this people could have been Proto-Finns. I asked him if it weren't possible, taking that kind of reasoning, that they could have been any people at all. He agreed that it was. So as Jaakko points out, there is no scientific evidence to support Wiik's theories, no matter how interesting they might sound.

1004: 971: 951: 2475:

an Urheimat for anybody. People had to come to the Urals area and to the whole northern Europe from somewhere else. Secondly, the migration of early Finnic-speakers from Urals (and/or central Russia) westward is only suggested in linguistics-based hypotheses. There is no archaeological evidence to indicate that the peoples of the Comb Ceramic (or any earlier) culture migrated from east to west to the Balto-Scandian region. Cheers, --

862: 831: 2802:

to many other language families. Thus while new in regards to Finno-Ugric languages, Dr Marcantonio's work is not quite as "new" as it seems. In general, Marcantonio's book is interesting, well-written and has caused quite a stir in a field that has been quite stagnant, and as such it should be given the respect it deserves and not categorised as just a crazy, fringe theory just because you (or I) may disagree with her.

396: 532: 511: 255: 1413:, containing "layman's" linguistic conclusions. Just the fact that he speculates about linguistics does not make him a linguist, imho (otherwise, afu is a linguist, too). But we can include his stuff anyway, I don't care. We just have to say that real linguists laugh their asses off when they read his stuff (we don't have to quote Merlijn's "pathological interest" though, it's enough to say that he has 542: 752: 647: 286: 796: 872: 224: 4498:. Languages are not "ancient" in any other sense than the date when they were spoken (i.e. ancient Greek is ancient because it was spoken in antiquity), and renaming Proto-Uralic "ancient Ugric" wouldn't change anything. Some kind of a scenario where the family formed by Finno-Permic "converging" towards Ugric, then? Not workable. -- 4643:

I was surprised not to see a list (or tree) of Finno-Ugric languages in this article. In fact, I suspect looking for such a list might be the single most common reason people visit this article. The list of ethnicities who speak Finno-Ugric languages doesn't correspond to the languages themselves.

4421:

Since linguists found traces of Ob-Ugrian loanwords in the language of the North-American Indians, Finno-Ugric theory needs revision. Ob-Ugric loanwords in North-Amercia can only be explained as North-Amercian Indians brought them with themselves at the time they migrated there (around 10.000BC) from

4374:

It is, of course, quite possible that many of the divergent lexemes in Samoyedic are actually inherited and were replaced (either by borrowing or native lexemes or formations) in the western branches, but that would have no bearing on the validity of Finno-Ugric. The development can still be an areal

3616:

My english knowladge is not best if I have to explain something precise. Albeit I hope you will understand my point. I am not a linguistic, but I think a should answer some of these questions only with a (or mine?!?) common sense. First: I have to mention that in linguistic you can not get any proof!

3555:

As Hungarian had sophisticated craftmanship, even before the "ingressus"(=entering, incoming) to Carpathian Basin, it is highly questionable that the "ancient" Hungarian language was a primitive one. Words taken from Slavic and Turkish could not happen (taken only from common sense, pls note there is

3547:

Hungarian is agglutinating like Scythian, Hun language, of which is probable relating to Hungarian (but we don't know!) The root words of Hungarian is very rich, some linguists say its roots are 60,000 root words (like "szer" where it is used in "szeret"=love and "szerződés"=contract, yes they have a

2967:

I already deleted this. There are hundreds of fringe and crank theories of language origins, and in general they should not be referred to in linguistic articles if there is no special reason for this - especially if no reference is provided. Note that the Germanic substrate hypothesis does not claim

2474:

Thanks for the recent note, Rob117. Wiik's more radical hypotheses about language-shifts aside, a couple of quick observations. Firstly, and nothing to do with linguistics, during the last ice age, the area in and around the Ural mountains was covered with, guess what..., ice, and could not have been

1973:

ok, I want to make sure we are clear that we are in full factual agreement. This is a question of terminology, layout and presentation, and not of content. Yes, Uralo-Yukaghir is a shaky theory, nothing more. The book I took the map from just happened to treat them together, without making any claims

1789:

It is true by the way that the Samoyedic disputes belong on Uralic languages. That should probably be sorted out. I just couldn't be bothered to draw more than one map, one for FU, one for Uralic, one for Uralo-Yukaghir etc., so I have to say somehow that more languages are marked on the map than are

4519:

Hey guys, just wanted to give the heads up, I am going to make a minor edit in this page. The "Geographic distribution" section says "Eastern and northern Europe, North Asia". This section should include Central Europe, as the largest Finno-Ugric ethnic group, Hungarians live in Central Europe. I'll

4261:

I recently ran across the term "Tshudic" in reference to the Finno-Ugric languages and their speakers in some late 19th and early 20th century works. Is this still a valid descriptor? Even if outdated, it probably warrants a mention in the article, with perhaps a redirect in case anyone else decides

3531:

Some part of the tribe decide to travel 6000km to South-West. They do this knowing it is very difficult to travel (with women, kids, houses) and we need not to forget that there were no highways at that time and no refrigerators. People needed to reserve food for long winters. I would say population

3518:

Too many words of unknown origin in Hungarian (even in "Magyar Értelmező Szótár"), interestingly all words relating to religion is of unknown origin (isten=god, böjt=fasting, húsvét=easter), and a lot of words are from Turkish and Slavic (at least this is official statement from Science of Academy).

3046:

If I recall it is something like 3,000 years ago for Ugric and 5-6,000 for Uralic. Remember though we're talking about language descent, not people. There is not a good scientific method currently that can tie current-day speakers of a language to the same people who spoke a "proto" version of the

2801:

I amended the dispute section as I felt the original criticism of Angela Markantonio's work was more personal than academic. Questioning similar to Marcantonio's of the existence of a 'primordial', base language from which other languages in the language family stem from, have taken place in regards

2561:

First: substrate can most reliably be found in the level of lexicon, because we can never know whether the phonetic similarities really are caused by language contact or not. But if we can find similar words, then the case is stronger. It is widely known that the vocabulary which most often has been

2487:

Wiik's theory is totally unscientific. Firstly, linguists are not claiming that people came from Volga - only the language came from there. The concept of language shift is present in the traditional view as well as in Wiik's view. Secondly, archaeological or genetic continuity cannot prove anything

2279:

Over (several) beers with Finnish friends we found over a dozen, e.g. water (Víz/Vissa), to go (menni/menni), hand (kéz/kessi) (pardon my mis-spellings) and other basic words, forgotten right before being drunk right under the table...:-) There are certainly many, perhaps others could add some more.

4096:

This one seems good but the english translation is vierd again. The northern sami one actually translates to "my dog". It's quite clear Mu=My and Beana=Dog. All those words "Mu" "Mun" "Mu" are same ones and they have dimension of owning. The translation for word "Me" is Minä (fin), Mine (est) and I

4027:

It is true that they lack grammatical gender and futhermore they lack gender in speech as well. But the translation for "he" and "she" is bit more complex. While the translation in finnish is indeed "hän". The votic "tämä" and estonian "temä" translates to finnish "tämä" or "minä". This would be in

3535:

They travel for long and then they arrive to Carpathian basin, where they immediately start Magyarization of all Slavs there (although there are no archeological sites showing any Slav tribe, its only taken from Chronicles), they do it very quickly, in less than 100 years everybody speaks Hungarian

3527:

Finno-Ugric nomadic tribes from Uralic Mountains speak very few words, as they are like half apes. They are waiting for other nations to develop words for goat and they know nothing about agriculture. They are living on both sides of Ural, which is very difficult to cross, but the language is quite

2543:

I am a little curious about how Jaakko Häkkinen knows there are 'no similarities' between pre-Indo-European languages and Uralic ? Ungarian and Finnish are not very similar either, but at least we have dictionaries of both languages and surprise : some similarities are found. What tools do you have

1823:

well, I am afraid Rs-map.png does not extend to Hungary. Before you tweak the colours, let me make another update (I have the layered orignal here, it will by much more difficult to make edits to the png. What colours would you like? I went as far as to pick the dark green of the Hungarian flag for

2895:

section. Much of it was irrelevant, and there were also misleading parts. Genetics is not a method for studying prehistoric languages any more than linguistics is a method for studying genetics. Hence, the following kind of statements are just misleading because they confuse genetic and linguistic

2513:

I second Jaakko's opinion. Wiik is an amateur in this particular field (although a great expert on phonemes) and almost all experts have debunked his theory. I attended one such session, and it was outright embarrassing. I have also spoken to Wiik in person once, and asked him about his theory. He

2461:

I added Kalevi Wiik's conclusions from his recent book. In my opinion with genetic studies data he bases on his assumptions, he devastates classical linguist theory. Unless he messed with the data or omited part of it in favour of his ideas I do not see how classical linguist theory can stand much

2356:

Pardon? Just because English has a rule for forming genitives from arbitrary nouns (adding 's) doesn't mean that something which is isn't formed with this rule isn't a genitive. The words "my" and "mine" can certainly be described as English genitives, just as "min" was the genitive form of the

1567:

it is a very good, scientific book, that does not just state its 'facts' but gives background of the history of classification, and presents different theories alongside each other. The section on 'Uralic-Yukaghir' is very enlightening (p.65ff.), and I will add some of it (with references!) to the

1126:

The map is full of errors. As already pointed out, where have the Ingrians disappeared and how did the Sápmi territory get that big? Many parts that are marked as Sápmi in Finland is 100% Finnish speaking. On the other hand, some Swedish areas in Finland with a Swedish percentage exceeding 90% are

4539:

Can somebody explain why it is Finno-Ugric (ie. 'Finno' is first in the name) when there are c. twice as many 'Ugric' (ie. large part Hungarian) speakers of this language group as the second-most (Finnish-speakers), and who make up the majority of speakers? On what basis is Finnic given priority?

4390:

You make some good arguments. They just need to get into some Uralicist paper somewhere specifically. I get the impression a FU/Smy bifurcation is currently low on explicit supporters (a lot more may adhere to it merely out of tradition), but as it has yet to be officially rejected by most of the

4370:

I'm not even sure about the grammatical conservatism of Samoyedic, for that matter. It does not seem either particularly conservative nor particularly innovative compared to the other Uralic languages (the objective conjugation or the dual might equally be innovations rather than retentions). The

4366:

That's an extremely unconvincing argument. There are all kinds of minority languages which have experienced strong contact influence on lexicon, going as far as to replace part of the native (including some basic) lexicon (partial relexification), while retaining all or most of the native grammar

3790:

Not analyzed at all. The common principal structure to make a language is the same in Hungarian and Finnish languages. Take just an example. There is a place in former Upper Hungary, also called now Karpathian Ruthenia named in Hungarian language Kiraly-Haza. Kuninkaan talo. Can be transliterated

3060:

Considering the Khanty and Mansi are located in the middle of Russia and the Magyars are all the way in Hungary and the 3 of them being the only members of the Ugric family, I think it's safe to say the Magyars, and just the Magyars broke off from the Khanty-Mansi tribe. Is there or was there any

2176:

languages, Antifinnugor is banned from editing these or related articles for one year. Antifinnugor may edit the related talk pages and is encouraged to work with other editors regarding article content. Other editors may add content and make changes suggested by Antifinnugor at their discretion.

1366:

which helps strengthening their national identities. This is actually true and helps us remember that when you see people arguing this strongly about such "boring" (sorry) a topic as linguistics, it is because they see it not as a scholarly debate but one attacking their "true" national identity.

4555:

Interesting question. The term "Ugro-Finnic" gets about 5000 Ghits, so it's indeed out there, if much rarer than the opposite. I suspect this has to do with the fact that the concept of a Ugric group was crystallized relatively early on, while it took a while to determine how should one define a

3995:

This summarization of your is incorrect. Not any scientific linguistics are supressed, on the other hand other research are allowed and carried out in those directions which have been anyway suppressed since ever. Nothing to do with any cozyness with some Turkics, Steppe or inner-Asian roots are

3980:

The current Hungarian government of autocrat PM Viktor Orban is supressing finno-ugric-uralic scientific lingusitics due to political scheming (e.g. to be cozy with Erdogan and the Turkmenbashi) and so they favour turkic / inner steppe asian origin ideas of the hungarian genetical and vernacular

3598:

As written above, this page is for discussion about the article, not the subject in general. There are individual opponents to the classification, but the consensus in the linguistic community is that Finnish, Hungarian and other Finno-Ugric languages share a common protolanguage. (This does not

1638:

and says this is accepted by 'practically all scholars' (p.68f.). The disputes surround the classification inside the Finnic group, and the status of Yukaghir. A. Marcantonio seems to be the exception to 'practically all', and she could be included as a dissenting voice in the 'history' section.

1475:

is criticized in linguistics, so it must be possible to find something. Angela Marcantonio is a beginning: At least she seems to be recognized as a good-faith linguist, even though her reviews are devastating. Once we have Marcantonio, there is really no need for Marácz, linguist od no linguist,

1373:

In his book Marácz doesn't claim that Hungarian is not related to Finno-Ugric languages, but he says that the relation between Hungarian and other language families like Turkic or Sumerian should not be discarded. He also used to publish in a Hungarian magazine called "Turán" (his "untenability"

3716:

And offcource finnish cant understand hungarian. We reformed/standardiced our language totally. We cant even understand the karelians we are related to in straight line. (My grand parents speak 2 karelian languages I cant understand.) I also spend a lot of time with estonian guy who speaks only

3708:

I agree to the first poster that the uralic migration is quite vierd theory. It would make more sence if you would put the starting point of the migration to ukraine. Then colour the places where sami and samoyedi people are and declare them the first people there. Then colour the space between

3023:

What is the most commonly accepted date that of the Magyars breaking off from the Khanty and Mansi tribes? Obviously they were all one tribe at some point (the Ugric tribe). Before the Magyars arrived at the Carpathian Basin with Arpad in 896, it is believed they were wondering around for a few

1355:

This is a cheap excuse for all the "alternative" theorists (most of whom don't have any linguistic background) who run out of linguistic arguments. Every one of them repeats this claim. People who think Hungarian is related to Celtic, Sumerian, Japanese, etc. Every single last one of them keeps

3503:

The main contradiction is connecting Hungarian to Finnish-Permic; but why? Because they are both agglutinating language? Why don't we state that WE DO NOT KNOW, we only THINK it could be connected. Even after centuries of investigation, we still don't know, we have to admit it. This article is

2923:

This article containts the text "Conversely, there have been suggestions that the Germanic languages evolved from an Indo-European language such as Celtic imposed on a Finnic substrate, but no satisfactory proof yet exists." Well, thanks for saying that no satisfactory proof exists, that is an

4478:

This also determines the fact that Ugrian languages are more ancient than Finnic languages (ca. 6000 BC). Ugrian is the root and Finno-Ugric languages formed later. So we can say Finno-Ugric and Hungarian are related, but not the way we thought they would be. Based on that the common words in

4451:

Also, the proposal does not suggest the historical scenario you suggest here: rather, they assume some Ugric shoot-off hiking off to the Americas around the 1st millennium BCE and eventually becoming or contributing to the formation of Penutian. (Still, a couple look-alikes in the vocabulary,

2089:

Here's a new map, drawn using several sources, which depicts the approximate geographical distribution of Finno-Ugric languages only. Please note that the "old" map (depicting also the Samoyedic and Yukaghir languages) can still be found in the article about Uralic languages (where, as far as

3650:

An approved theory says that the slavic or turkish words describe some activity or object, which were better, more appropriate, then the hungarian ones. The hungarians learn these mothods and started to use the foreign words, because their words had decscribed a bit different method. It an

2488:

about the linguistic continuity. Thirdly, Wiik ignores all the best-argumented linguistic results: nowadays we know a lot about the languages in pre-Indo-European Europe, and those languages have no similarity to Uralic languages in any level. Here is my article, translated from Finnish:

1876:

I know, nobody said it was. It's just a map I copied from Ruhlen, showing the distribution of FInnic, Ugric, Samoyedic and Yukaghir, and it is used on all these articles. If you can be bothered, you could create a Finnic, an Ugric, a Samoyedic, a Yukaghir, a Finno-Ugric, an Uralic and an

1057:

I've seen that map, it's error-compatible to one map I've seen. Encyclopedia Britannica? Well, anyway, here are some obvious problems. Finnish is the majority language in Northern Finnish Lapland. Here, it's shown as a purely Sami-speaking territory. It is not in majority in any country.

1454:

Actually Marácz does have a degree in linguisitcs from the University of Gröningen from 1984 and he got his PhD in 1989 at least that's what he writes in one of the articles AFU copied to the Hungarian Knowledge (XXG). I don't know what's the best way or phrasing to mention him though.

3551:

Relation with Finno-Ugric is still feasible, as Scythian and Finno-Ugric had a "lingua franca", as the two types of people were bordering each other. So the 600 words were used to understand each other on basic level (most probably!). During this period, the grammar was also shared

1527:

theory, and it is a fine example of crackpottery if there ever was one. (I realize that Maracz does not himself cite Illig, but it seems very fitting to find them sharing the same webspace). It seems also strange that most literature critical of FU seems to be written in Hungarian,

1396:. It is also telling that in his "Untenability" article, Marácz references Bobula Ida and Francisco Jos Badiny (Badiny Jós Ferenc). They both think that Hungarian is related to Sumerian. Badiny also claims that Jesus was a Parthian prince. You can google for their works in English. 276: 3397:

in this article is simply subpar. I'm having huge problems with the way the areas where the languages are spoken have been colored (little dots, I don't see a point in that), the colors themselves (cyan blue should be banned, really), and the stretched and squeezed text...

4371:

only Uralic languages which can be said to be truly innovative grammatically, namely Hungarian and the Finnic languages, are also marked by remarkably high amounts of lexical borrowings from Indo-European languages, which is consistent with the conclusion mentioned above.

2190:

4.1) Antifinnugor is placed on standard personal attack parole for one year: if Antifinnugor makes an edit which is judged by an administrator to be a personal attack, he may be temporarily banned for up to a week by that administrator and the parole timer shall be reset.

1198:

added external link to Merlijn de Smit's link collection. I don't know if 'entirely unsuccessful' is too strong a term, but the claims do seem rather hopeless. while, technically, we can now say that Maracz has been peer-reviewed. That is, if the following counts as a

4659:

It would be to some extent arbitrary (are varieties that don't occur in the list not languages?), and I don't see much point. It's not the kind of info we normally include in lang-family articles. You can always navigate the subarticles or just view the category. —

1659:

I have now even drawn a map, after Ruhlen, p.64, showing the distribution of Finnic, Uralic, Samoyed and Yukaghir. The areas were copied manually, though, and I hope I don not step on anyone's Ugric, Finnic, Samoyed or Yukaghir toes if they are not exactly accurate.

4170:…The vocabulary and featural sections seem particularly misleading: much of what is described here in fact applies to Uralic as a whole. Agglutination, possessiv suffixes, seven original cases, and words like *sëxni, *meni-, *kala, *śilmä are solidly PU features. -- 1877:

Uralo-Yukahgir version of it (you'd still have to say that they are derived from Ruhlen's book, though), but I thought making one map was tedious enough. Or maybe the caption could be amended, drawing attention to Finnic and Ugric in poarticular, for this article?

1727:

Euroasia, with Western Europe quite marginalized — a perspective Russians often are quite used to, but that sometimes confuse people from the West who are used to putting Germany, Britain or USA in the center. :-) This projection is the best possible in this case.

3511:

Finnish and Hungarian have some words common, but around 600 word roots, they are all related to tundra climate (like hal/kala=fish) and basic words (like kéz/kessi=hand). The number is very small. This is why Hungarians DO NOT understand Finnish AT ALL (and vice

1597:

see the new 'history' section. I think the 'criticism' section looks quite out of place now. Ruhlen does not gloss over controversies, and he gives quite some detail on the various arrangements of Finnic that are suggested. As to uralic, he gives the arrangement:

2900:"Thus, the Finno-Ugric languages and their modern speakers do not originate in the area near the Ural mountains, but rather likely were one of the three indigenous European ethnic groups, which together provided about 80% of modern European genetic material." 2544:

to say about any adjacent languages 10000 years ago that they are not related? Please note that 'There is no evidence Wiik is right' and 'There is enough evidence to say with certainty that everything Wiik has said is wrong' are very different statements!

1639:

Ruhlen hints more strongly, and more assertively than I have done, to the nationalist situation in Hungary, and I think you should really write an article about that, so that it can be linked from here: I hope this will manage to take some heat from this

1995:

As a non-linguist (although student of a language :-) I could maybe add that I find it informative to include neighboring non-IE languages. The only important thing would be to stress in the legend which languages are considered Finno-Ugric and not.

3305:

Hello I can speak Hungarian and I honestly don't see how Hungarian is any more related to Khanty and Mansi than it is to Finnish or Estonian. I don't see any more similarities with the two other Ugric languages than with any Finnic languages.

980: 845: 1532:

if Soviet censorship (i.e. countries that were never censored by the Soviets never developed such FU criticism). If people insist on linking to Maracz (Gubbubu apparently is), how about mentioning Maracz together with Karoly's 'recension',

3617:

All what you can get are some similarity between the languages. On this similarities you can bulid up a theory. If you want evidence, you will never get answeres. This is a well known problem, but somebody are always tending to forget it.

3712:

I'm however open to the idea that all the finnish tribes mixed with the other tribes of the area. Honewer finnish seem to have hold on on hunting and gathering. "fenni" can actually be translated to "wanderer" "gatherer" and "seeker".

2908:

and not about the genetics of the Finno-Ugric peoples, I think it should be primarily based on what linguistics has to say about the subject. One wouldn't want to insert linguistic speculations to articles about human genetics either.

3273:

Last paragraph of origins chapter seems to be a little vague. Certainly there are no "Sami peoples of Asia". Furthermore, I think that Finno-Ugric theory was widely accepted by Finnish scientists even before the Finnish independence.

3247:"The majority of linguists believe that Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian, among other languages, should be included in the group." This should bw reworded, as something that has given a name, cant be "considered" to be included in it. 960: 841: 3563:

If I was offending, pls note it was not my intension. My intension was not to put a "theory" as it is a "fact", it is dangerous. Please don't let linguists play the role of historians, and do not let them be driven by politics.

2310:

The part that says "Estonian mu koer 'my dog' (literally 'I-gen. dog')" looks really odd to a linguist, since it implies that 'my' isn't I-gen when it quite clearly is. "My" is a perfectly good translation of Estonian "mu" and

3599:

require many common words, areal or cultural proximity, mutual intelligibility or having the same external influences. It is very simple: they share an ancestor and that's what's required for two languages to be "related".) --

1807:

Okay, I just got home, and now the blue bit indeed looks like water. At work, though, the water looked dark-brown, not blue, and the land looked light-brown. I wasn't just hallucinating, I swear! Did you consider modifying

4031:

So you need to remember that: Minä, Sinä, Hän, Me, Te, He & Se = I, You, Him/Her, Us (two or more), You (two or more), Them (two or more) & It Nämä, Tämä, Tuo, Noi = These (ones), This (one), That (one), Those (ones)

3635:

I don't want to comment your next three "sarcastic" means. I don't know why have you put it here. It's obvious that they are more than sarcastic and no one believe that. That's why "is it not corresponding to common sense".

153: 1068:

In a linguistic map, indigenous languages take priority over other languages if their distribution overlap. Therefore the map is correct, even if Finnish is spoken as far as on the coast of the Arctic Ocean in Norway.

2501:

Really? What do we know about the languages of pre-Indo-European Europe? Apart from some placenames, Basque, and questionable proposals of linguistic substrates, I don't think much is really known on this subject.

3659:

What do you want to say with this? The linguists should not investigate the languages?!? And anyway You should not cite here opinions of an arts professor, even he has a linguistical hobby, even he is a wise man.

3717:

estonian and russian. The communication is really hard when you go above basic trade or stuff that happens everyday. But I have to say that when I bothered to leave out the suffixes he understood me quite well.

3624:

The distance of our days doesn't play any role if we speak about the origin. It makes no sense. (Of course it does mean that the two language had a different surronding, which had a big influence on the nowadays

4875: 2437:

So wherever you have gotten your conviction that 'mu' means 'mine' and not 'my', you are flatly wrong. 'Mine' in Estonian is 'minu oma', not 'mu'. So I also deleted absolutely wrong sentence in the article that

3195:

I think that Kalavala is as accurate as bible when it comes to history. But the similarities of Ahti and Poseidon are quite intesting. And also the whole theme with tuoni river and similar in greek mythology.

3368:

What this is really about is people want to take away any uniqueness the Hungarian people has by linking it to other languages and tracing most of its words to other languages instead of the other way around.

1442:

is that it seemed non-neutral to me. If Marácz's criticisms are notable enough to go in, they should be stated first, with the linguistic response second. It isn't fair to demolish him from the get-go.

4150:

These two articles duplicate much content. I've started to transfer some of it (eg. the subclassification discussion) under that one. Please consider aiming further contributions on the topic there, too.

4870: 3162:

Does anybody think the characters in the Kalevala (if it in fact is historically accurate) such as Väinämöinen could be the ancestors of all Finno-Ugric people before they split up and were one tribe?

4391:

field either, we're stuck calling the situation "disputed" as long as a couple people like Janhunen still hang onto the primaryness of Samoyedic in literature & manage to get off without critique.

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ukrain and finland, ukrain and ural, ukrain and hungary. Then colour the huns, sarmatians and russians there with different colours. You get what is pretty much the map of liguistics at the moment.

1153:

One problem with both maps is that the text in the boxes is too small to be easily read. And does anyone else have a problem with the world map covering part of the text? Copey 2 (not logged on)

2245:

Those Hungarian enyém 'mine', tiéd 'yours' sound eerily familiar. Writing them in Finnish orthography, they become "änjääm", "tieed". In Finnish, "oma" means "my own", and "teidän" is "yours".

1356:

repeating that the "true" reason that the Hungarian Academy of Sciences refuses to answer them or dismisses them as crackpots is because they want to "supress" the truth for political reasons.

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According to Estonian philologist Mall Hellam, the only entire sentence that is mutually intelligible is, "The living fish swims in water" (although it is not in fact mutually intelligible).

3694:

says Knowledge (XXG) isn't interested in your personal opinions or musings on the matter. Get them published academically if they are worth anything, and then we'll be able to quote them.

1352:

The theory is pushed for political reasons. They claim that the (former) communists don't want the Hungarians to learn about their "true" origins. (For the same reasons as the Habsburgs.)

2811:

Sad but true: Marcantonio has no clue about historical linguistics. She has misunderstood just about everything - see my short text with further references (uralists reviewing her book):

4361:

Proponents of the traditional binary division note, however, that the invocation of extensive contact influence on vocabulary is at odds with the grammatical conservatism of Samoyedic.

467: 4582:'Uralic' would be the best and the most neutral name. It is strange to call, for example, Maris and Mordvinians "Finno-Ugric" because they definitely are not Finnish nor Ugric. 4339:

Not. Between Estonian and Finnish it is, of course (quite similar languages), but Hungarians don't understand the others, and the others don't understand the Hungarian version.

147: 4732:

why are Finnic and Volga groups divided by language, but Sami just as Western / Eastern? (Same, for that matter, re Mansi and Khanty, though that comes up in a lot of maps.)

4023:"Finno-Ugric languages lack grammatical gender and thus use one pronoun for both he and she; for example, hän in Finnish, tämä in Votic, tema in Estonian, ő in Hungarian." 2157: 4092:"Examples: Estonian mu koer 'my dog' , colloquial Finnish mun koira, Northern Sami mu beana 'my dog' (literally 'dog of me') or beatnagan 'my dog' (literally 'dog-my')." 2204:

5) If Antifinnugor can demonstrate better editing habits free of personal attacks three months from now, he may apply to have the above restrictions reduced or removed.

1438:

Entirely outside the sphere of linguistics is the claim of "untenability" of the Finno-Ugric family by László Marácz, referenced by de Smit for its "morbid fascination"

1257:)There are references, this time, and the edits do not seem completely unreasonable, but the article has certainly been unbalanced, as such claims are at best obscure. 414: 4855: 1978:, we should remove it from this article. But I still think this map is better than no map, because it illustrates the geographical features discussed in the article. 1677:

Great work Dab! I haven't been around Knowledge (XXG) much lately, and it's great to see articles I haven't looked at in a couple of weeks substantially improved. -

3321:

That's because speaking a language and understanding linguistic methods are two completely separate things. Like driving a car versus being able to fix one. --

1082:

distribution of major languages. If not, where are the Ingrians? The areas around St. Petersburg should be interconnected with Estonia. Setu is also missing. --

44: 1370:

One of the reasons for this is that many of the "alternative theorists" and 90% of the laypeople do not distinguish between ethnic and linguistic relatedness.

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I just wonder, if are there any written text in the hun language. I heard that its absence questions all hun-hungarian theory. But it does not belong to here.

3291:

Complete rubbish and POV statement, as if somehow indo-european languages do not exhibit agglutination either. Anon, you poorly understand agglutination. --

3047:

language. So it would be a weak practice to say with absolutes that Arpad in 896 and the Proto-Ugric speakers 2,000 years earlier were all from one tribe. --

1955:, but if it were possible to show that the Uralic languages are a part of a bigger language family, the Yukaghir languages might be another branch of it. The 1463:

This should not be about this Marácz too much anyway. I agree with Dbenbenn about the removal of my sentence. This was an attempt of how we could include him

1091:

The map lacks Finnish/Karelian for the area northwest of St. Petersburg too, and Karealian area should extend partly into Finland and out to the White Sea. --

2035:

I don't think this point is worth arguing much further, though I'd be interested in trying my hand with the GIMP if you're still prepared to slip me layers.

1399:

To sum up: most of what Marácz writes about is political and those parts which are about linguistics have been harshly criticized by people in the field.

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the map is exceedingly cool -- and no, the Britannica one doesn't look identical at all; I suppose it just descends from a common source (what is IMIU?)

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In finnish it means large two bladed axe. It is indeed iranian/turkish word for axe but I cant remember the spelling. (Was it Tabayyra or something?)

2217:

1) If Antifinnugor, under whatever username, attempts to edit Finno-Ugric languages or Uralic languages, he may be banned for up to twenty-four hours.

1499:

Conversely, there have been suggestions that the Germanic languages evolved from an Indo-European language such as Celtic imposed on a Finnic substrate

4835: 4820: 1719:. The problem is, I can't make heads or tails of it. Is it supposed to be southeast Asia? Is that Japan off the right side? I'm deeply confused. 803: 693: 4850: 4790: 931: 339: 4058:(the cognate of Finnish _hän_) means "self", not "him/her". You cannot directly transfer Finnish meanings to related words in other languages (see 2924:

understatement if there ever was one. I've never heard one single linguist propose this idea. Unless somebody objects, I'm removing that sentence.

1476:

because his inclusion will only add to the ridicule of the critics. I am sure there are others, but, well, we are not obliged to hunt for them. We

85: 4810: 2776:

There appears to be a Finno-Ugric language or dialect that calls itself "Suoczil". What is its name in English? Is there a language code for it? —

564: 3572:) 15:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC) PS. I need to include that these ideas are not mine, but taken from Gábor Pap, historian and professor of arts. 1362:

Marácz also point out that neighboring countries created their own nationalistic myths like the daco-romanian theory and a lot of legend around

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Explanation of the origin of the name might be useful in the article. Dare I suggest that Ugro-Finnic sounds possibly equally as contrived...?

4397: 3394: 3416:, (i.e. no cyan blue or bright green, please) or too dark (if you are going to use dark colors, use them sparingly, and only on little areas). 3123:

According to m-w, it's Oo-gric (or alternatively Yoo-gric). If anybody knows how to write that up in IPA, it would be useful in the intro. --

436: 4795: 4757:— would be nice if some of these could be adopted or adapted for WP (I do not think they're currently licensed for directly being used here). 4100:

I think someone should rewrite that part but I cant do it because I dont have a clue about those english words and grammatical terms there.

3981:

identity. Even schoolbooks have been rewritten to reflect the new ideology. More or less the magyar equivalent of young earth creationism...

3802: 1154: 774: 669: 315: 4880: 4480: 4448:. This is very much a fringe viewpoint supported by maybe two or three linguists and seems unlikely to be anything more than a coincidence. 4429: 3819: 3750: 3288:"All this comparisons of languages have been made by methods developed for Indo- European languages, not suiting agglutinative languages." 3169: 2873: 2291: 1747:

um, yes, the brown bit is land, and the blue bit is ocean. and the coloured areas are the distribution of the languages, as by the legend.

1347:

The real reason was that it the time of Habsburg opression coincided with progress in linguisics in general at the end of the 19th century.

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If we look at International Librarian practices, your hunch is absolutely right. The US Library of Congress subscribes to the the label

2462:

longer. Still, the frasing of my addition is not certain. One could expect more data to come from the studies on the genetic material.--

1572:

genetic relationship of Uralic and Yukaghir. Ruhlen talks about apparent 'taxonomical coordination', and mentions various suggestions.

4800: 4623: 3982: 3960: 3865: 3849: 3687: 3370: 3254: 3107: 2607: 2322: 2977:

yes, the "such as Celtic" part is nonsense, and the whole 'substrate hypothesis' is little more than hand-waving in the first place.

1336:

First not entirely true, Sajnovics was Hungarian. Second the nationality of the scholars doesn't matter, especially after 150 years.

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actually discussed in this article. Also, the 'History' section should of course explain how the different theories tie together.

135: 4845: 4708:

Before immediately changing the old map to this new one, can someone check if this map is accurate and good? Thanks in advance.

3743:

I think that tappara is probably from Slavic word topor that means axe/hatchet. This word can be of the Iranian descent though.

1501:

passage in "History". It ended up where it is now purely to give some background to the Marácz mention, and could now be moved.

765: 726: 660: 621: 311: 302: 260: 74: 4467: 4077: 1762: 4556:'Finnic' group centered on Finnish. I.e. the term would mean "Finnish, Ugric and everything in between", not "Finnic + Ugric". 1294:

Actually this is not correct. Marácz is a linguist, although I'm not aware him publishing any journal papers on this subject.

903: 885: 836: 460: 421: 408: 235: 4597: 4559:

This is, however, all a guess. I have not seen a discussion of the term's development in any overview of the field's history.

3690:) back in 2004. If you can cite academic literature criticising the hypothesis, you are most welcome to do that. Either way, 3232: 2007:

I hope I have made the caption unambiguous now. I am afraid that people who want to know about FU will have no choice but to

1301: 3621:

How does hand and fish relate to the tundra climate? The poofs (examples???) for the first point is much more than doubtful.

2904:

Languages do not necessarily have the same origin as the genes of their speakers. Because this article is about Finno-Ugric

2583:

OK, how about 20 non-Uralic substrate languages and one Uralic? And not as scientific fact, but remote possibility? Celtic

65: 4452:

scattered among the dozens of different languages considered Penutian, doesn't support that kind of a conclusion either.)

3587: 2951: 4562:…and we could even ask: if we're naming groups after their geographically farthest removed members, perhaps "Sami-Ugric" 3559:

Where are all the loads of words with unknown origin come from (like words of religion)? Why not from Hungary (Scythia)??

1274:

Apparently, the Burushaski language is no longer a language isolate, as well. Linguistic hypotheses presented as facts.--

2738: 3939:

It's somewhat amusing that fringe-theorists have taken to places like YouTube with a vengeance to spread their agenda.

3924:. However, minority viewpoints do not need to be repeated in articles that address a mainstream viewpoint in detail. -- 2968:

that the "Germanic languages evolved from an Indo-European language such as Celtic imposed on a Finnic substrate". --

1959:

belong evidently to the Uralic language family, although the relation is quite distant to the Finno-Ugric languages. --

129: 2939: 2529: 1142: 2361:

first-person singular pronoun "ic", and "mein" is the genitive of the German first-person singular pronoun "ich". --

4380: 1824:

Ugric, and light blue from the Finnish flag for Finnic, to be sure not to offend anyone by the choice of colours!)

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If these words were only used to understand each other, they would be not part of both language! Only maximum one.

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btw, the "breakthrough" bit I added to the "Criticism" section does not properly belong there. It belongs to the

3488:

RIGHT HERE, the poster should have stopped. This is completely beyond your frame of expertise to give opinions.

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Much of Marácz's arguments are reflected in Antifinnugor's edits and other "alternative" theories in Hungary:

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article was published there, too). This makes me wonder whether these his theories should be discussed under

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I think it is telling, that when you google for Marácz's articles most often you find them on the website

1250: 3899:

There is quite a lot of denialism of Hungarian being a Finno-Ugric language that needs to be addressed.

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Until now you have not mention any doubt, which could not be answered easily with the "popular" theory.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

668:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

563:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

24: 4704:

I have made a new map that looks better than the current map on this article. The link to the image is

3677: 2149: 70: 3798:

Tapani Lehtinen: "Kielen vuosituhannet" Publisher SKS. Printed Gummerus Kirjapaino Oy Jyväskylä 2007.

3667: 1338:

This reminds me of the urban legend that Darwin revoked his theories about evolution on his death bed.

4325: 4246: 3090:

A quick hint on pronunciation would be welcome in the intro. Is it Uh-gric? Oo-gric? Yoo-gric? --

2358: 4396:(FWIW a future aim of mine is to merge this and a couple similar articles around here into a single 2272: 2120: 1960: 1113: 1070: 427:

Rate each tagged article by quality and importance to the WikiProject if it has not been done. (See

223: 4767: 4713: 4685: 4589: 4573: 4505: 4463: 4407: 4284: 4177: 4161: 4133: 4073: 3931: 3699: 3656:"Please don't let linguists play the role of historians, and do not let them be driven by politics" 3406: 3224: 2982: 2803: 2229: 2134: 2051: 2016: 1983: 1956: 1924: 1882: 1845: 1829: 1795: 1758: 1699: 1665: 1648: 1577: 1542: 1506: 1485: 1422: 1385:(sorry couldn't find it online) . Rédei calls a lot of Marácz's linguistic claims "pseudoscience". 1262: 1215: 1186: 161: 141: 3893:

Maracz and Antifinnugor seem to speak Hungarian. They both seem to have studied Finnish minutely.

4541: 4445: 3940: 3489: 3449: 3326: 3006: 2753: 2690: 2647: 2338: 1948: 1275: 1043: 208: 4741:

way too big of a distribution for Ingrian, even if it's supposed to be historical and not modern

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The distance is huge. Even for Estonia the distance is too large (see map). Nothing in between.

1868:

Can you redo the map without Yukaghir? It's not a Finno-Ugric (or even Uralic) language group.

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Ah Ok I understand. What's the best software for fixing the map? I'd like to have a go myself.

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who criticize. We don't need to debunk László Marácz here, since he isn't a linguist anyway"

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Dr. Laszlo Maracz seems to be a native speaker of one of the allegedly related languages.

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other languages in the Ugric family besides Khanty, Mansi, and Magyar that are now extinct?

2955: 2727: 2716: 2675: 2661: 2654: 1952: 1434:

Okay, thanks for correcting me, Nyenyec. Actually, the main reason I removed the sentence:

1253:, edited by somebody claiming "deepest research" proves Baltic and Slavic are unrelated... ( 1178: 1039: 1003: 205: 3691: 4242: 3186: 2969: 2935: 2910: 2855: 2668: 2629: 2525: 1809: 1138: 741: 720: 547: 2869: 2600:

fi.'puu' de.'baum' en.'wood','boom' se.'bok' ru.'buk' looks like one possibility, too.

1480:

obliged to allow fair mention if somebody brings them up, but this is as far as it goes.

4203:

In "Näin lauloi Larin Paraske" SKS 1980, p.149 it's said, that both of her parents were

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well, I have been whipped into doing my own literature search now, and I came up with

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Finno-Ugrian and Hungarian languages probably come from that ancient Ugrian language.

3401:

So, in good faith, I have a few suggestions on how to improve the map/make a new one:

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I have added some labels (Finland, Hungary, Ural, Siberia) to make it easier to read.

1344:

the theory was pushed under Habsburg rule to supress the national pride of Hungarians

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of some ten thousands of Hungarians (at least!), to travel 6000km, is barely nothing.

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but people may be used to the "Ugra" pronunciations prevalent in Romance languages.

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explanation too. Or maybe it was only a fashon. (Like nowadays the english words)

2786:

False alarm, mystery solved. It’s just another conlang...number of speakers: 1. —

2090:

Samoyedic languages are concerned, it fits more appropriately anyway). Cheers, --

1306:

Although I haven't read it myself, it is Károly Rédei criticises it in his book:

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No warped/squeezed/stretched/otherwise raped text. Seriously, that doesn't work.

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Knowledge (XXG) editor Antifinnugor seems to be a native speaker of the same.

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I reviewed the disputes, and merged them with 'criticism'. I am not sure about

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There are a lot of similarities between Odin and Väinämöinen and Santa Claus.

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lot in common as anciant contracts were made on love=trust, not on interest).

1287:

Dbenbenn, in your last edit comment you write: "This section should be about

1078:

Right. I was going to ask, but then I realized this is going to be about the

4126:

etc. is not given in the translation as "me", but, correctly, as "of me". --

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Sweet. I believe this is the linguistic equivalent of what bloggers call a

3519:

These words are animals (like kecske=goat), so they are still basic words.

2341:, not a pronoun in the genitive. If it was, it'd be "I's". "My" is a good 1173:

Seeing that the 'Critique' page is now a redirect, I think we should find

4234: 4196: 3628:

There are in any language tons of words, whose origins are not clarified.

3600: 3540:

See? If you look it this way, this is not corresponding to common sense!

2381:

is a possesive pronoun. Yes, confusing, but the functions are separate.

2350: 2252: 1375: 1083: 1059: 560: 4753:

Current best-quality maps of Uralic languages are probably those by the

3794:

Peharps also this source should be mentioned linked with Finno Ugrians:

1467:. He is either non-notable, or notable as a curiosity, it appears. I am 4608:

Many linguists believe that Maris and Mordvinians are closer to Finns (

4204: 2891:

I shortened the discussion on genetics and Kalevi Wiik's theory in the

1231: 795: 770: 665: 307: 4613: 4211:

Molemmat olivat inkeroisia, joilla tarkoitetaan Inkerin ja Kannaksen

2173: 2043: 1781:

is to my knowledge (mostly?) used in much more restricted meanings. /

1589:

Awesome! Great work, dab! That sounds like exactly what's needed.

1323:

Questions of Our Ancient History, Critique of Linguistic Dilettantism

1181:. Of course saying that it is a piece of non-peer-reviewed crankery. 894: 4444:

I assume you're referring to the "Cal-Ugric" proposal involving the

902:

Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the

1715:

Thanks for making the map, Dbachmann. It's always nice to have an

4705: 1333:

the original proponents of Finno-Ugric theory were not Hungarians

3504:

stating that Hungarian is Finno-Ugric, punctum, that's not true.

1389: 4280: 1916: 4754: 4097:

think sami people say "mie" when they talk about "Me" or "I".

1312:Őstörténetünk kérdései, A nyelvészeti dilettantizmus kritikája 1044: 997: 217: 209: 15: 4207:

not Finns and she grew up in Ingria, near to Finnish border.

3953:

Dr. Laszlo Maracz was born in a Hungarian family in Holland.

2115:

The new map seems to be copied from Encyclopædia Britannica,

1112:" in the map, because the area is too small to be colored. -- 3484:

I am not linguist, first of all, but this theory is whack.

3339:

I'm asking to show me some more sources proving otherwise.

2854:

redirects here, and I don't see any reason to change this.--

1249:

people watching this page may be interested in checking out

969: 949: 3523:

So this is official explanation (with sarcastic comments):

2667:), they represent three different and unrelated roots: (1) 2290:

In Finnish water = "vesi", to go = "mennä", hand = "käsi".

4876:

Demographics and ethnography of Russia task force articles

4729:

why is there a second Permyak group to the west of Udmurt?

3024:

hundred years between the Volga River and Ural Mountains.

314:, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the 3841:

http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/JRNL97B.htm

2168:

1.1) For significant disruption relating to the articles

1108:

The distribution of the Ingrian language is marked with "

468:

Category:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Estonia

4750:, not just be winged by copying previous unsourced maps. 2315:

of them are the genetive first person singular pronoun.

3543:

Here is a recommended part to include in this article:

3423:

I'd do it myself, but sadly I don't have the time. So,

2832:

the proper term for this admittedly fascinating topic?

1254: 1127:

still marked as Finnish. All in all a very random map.

384: 379: 374: 369: 4871:

C-Class Russia (demographics and ethnography) articles

3405:

The colors should be even (like in every other map in

2870:

http://www.loc.gov/marc/languages/language_name.html#f

2404:

OK, looks like somebody needs a little Estonian lesson

1537:? Somebody would need to access that book, of course. 466:

Upload and/or add a photo to articles without it (See

160: 4866:

Language and literature of Russia task force articles

2158:

Knowledge (XXG):Requests for arbitration/Antifinnugor

981:

the demographics and ethnography of Russia task force

4738:

why Mari diaspora but no Mordvin or Udmurt diaspora?

769:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 664:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 559:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 4283:. Appropriate redirects might be needed, though. -- 1947:"Finnic" should be replaced by "Finno-Permic". The 1471:however, that there are respectable critics of FU. 1381:László Honti debunked most of Marácz's theories in 1177:way to include reference to Dr. László Marácz and 174: 2850:are used, and the former seems to be more common. 1409:from what I gather, he wrote a reasonable book on 4861:C-Class Russia (language and literature) articles 1417:support in the linguistic community whatsoever) 961:the language and literature of Russia task force 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 1563:Merritt Ruhlen, A Guide to the World's langages 1568:history section. (note that the book does not 4494:It's hard to understand what this would even 4417:North American Indians has Ob-Ugric loanwords 4015:Structural features (failure due translation) 2271:I would like to hear more on this subject. -- 8: 3920:Perhaps in the Hungarian article, and under 3786:Finno Ugrian loans to Great Russian language 3100:I'm pretty sure it's pronounced "oog-reek". 2117:http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9109786 4617: 4583: 4453: 4423: 4324:What? Is it mutually intelligible or not? 4063: 4033: 3954: 3248: 3218: 3101: 3062: 3025: 2925: 2744:. To relate any of these three to Finnish 2646:) meaning 'sun' (with a relatively recent 2587:(eye) seems damn similar to Proto-Uralic 2515: 2316: 2246: 1856:Alright, the labels help a lot. Thanks! 1748: 1519:— *lol* I had overlooked the reference to 1297:He wrote a book: Hungarian Revival, 1998, 1128: 825: 715: 610: 505: 403:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 357: 249: 3444:I've changed the map, what do you think? 2711:, with an unclear etymology; (3) and the 2457:Linguist migration theory to recycle bin? 3412:The colors should also be soft, like in 2377:is a pronoun in the genitive case while 4856:High-importance C-Class Russia articles 4746:and of course, maps preferrably should 4723:Lots of questions come to mind easily: 2635:, both meaning 'eye', are derived from 827: 717: 612: 507: 251: 221: 4398:Classification of the Uralic languages 3812:Worth of reading for those who can. 573:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Languages 7: 3005:If you're an expert, please look at 883:This article is within the scope of 763:This article is within the scope of 658:This article is within the scope of 553:This article is within the scope of 442:Add infoboxes to articles without it 429:Category:Unassessed Estonia articles 415:WikiProject Estonia/Missing articles 3158:The Kalevala and Finno-Ugric people 1535:Critique of Linguistic Dilettantism 783:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Finland 678:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Hungary 324:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Estonia 306:, a project to maintain and expand 240:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 4566:would be more appropriate yet? ;) 2044:http://flaez.ch/scratch/uralic.xcf 916:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Russia 14: 4806:High-importance language articles 4639:No list of Finno-Ugric languages? 3996:anyway not necessarily Turkic...( 2011:, in spite of there being a map. 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 4836:High-importance Finland articles 4821:High-importance Hungary articles 4318:Currently the article includes: 2653:As for the proposed cognates of 2642:(a variant form of Proto-Celtic 2111:Map from Encyclopædia Britannica 1002: 870: 860: 829: 794: 750: 740: 719: 645: 635: 614: 540: 530: 509: 394: 284: 274: 253: 222: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 4851:High-importance Russia articles 4791:Mid-importance Estonia articles 4706:https://i.imgur.com/CK4i8tU.png 2413:My dog ran away : 1740:, and that's northern Russia? 936:This article has been rated as 808:This article has been rated as 698:This article has been rated as 593:This article has been rated as 344:This article has been rated as 4811:WikiProject Languages articles 4181:18:02, 17 September 2012 (UTC) 3935:14:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC) 3915:00:46, 23 September 2010 (UTC) 3759:14:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 3014:07:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC) 2991:07:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC) 2973:07:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC) 2959:00:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC) 2944:21:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC) 2715:names of the beech tree, e.g. 1390:http://www.kitalaltkozepkor.hu 846:Demographics & ethnography 576:Template:WikiProject Languages 1: 4841:All WikiProject Finland pages 4826:All WikiProject Hungary pages 4771:15:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC) 4165:14:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC) 3676:We've been through this with 3190:16:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC) 3178:15:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC) 3128:00:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC) 3116:21:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC) 3095:04:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC) 3077:13:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC) 3052:16:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC) 3040:06:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC) 2952:Germanic substrate hypothesis 2882:09:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC) 2819:23:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC) 2791:09:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC) 2685:(the latter a borrowing from 2496:23:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC) 2345:of "mu", but an insufficient 2300:20:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC) 2285:03:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 978:This article is supported by 958:This article is supported by 777:and see a list of open tasks. 672:and see a list of open tasks. 567:and see a list of open tasks. 42:Put new text under old text. 4796:WikiProject Estonia articles 4689:01:32, 28 January 2015 (UTC) 4670:19:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC) 4654:18:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC) 4612:) than to Ugrics, and that " 4577:00:27, 12 January 2015 (UTC) 4550:14:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC) 4530:21:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC) 4411:00:06, 20 January 2013 (UTC) 4262:to search for it. Thanks, -- 4241:(a plural form, btw) means. 4228:20:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC) 4028:english "this one" and "I". 3592:15:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 3472:17:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC) 3454:23:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 3185:I hope this was a joke... -- 3150:08:35, 6 February 2009 (UTC) 3001:Vepses not in use in English 2807:21:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC) 2781:15:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC) 2758:21:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC) 2616:11:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC) 2480:13:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC) 2265:10:57, 2 February 2005 (UTC) 1314:, Balassi Kiadó, Bp., 2003. 1163:13:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 1096:23:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC) 786:Template:WikiProject Finland 681:Template:WikiProject Hungary 327:Template:WikiProject Estonia 4881:WikiProject Russia articles 4602:11:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC) 4385:15:16, 5 January 2013 (UTC) 4349:14:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC) 4334:12:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC) 4137:12:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 4116:22:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 4082:12:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC) 4048:22:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 4006:19:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC) 3991:13:19, 13 August 2020 (UTC) 3969:12:45, 1 October 2017 (UTC) 3780:23:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC) 3733:00:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC) 3439:15:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC) 3379:18:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 3355:19:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 3331:17:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 3316:16:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 3296:22:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC) 3237:11:26, 9 January 2016 (UTC) 3212:00:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC) 2467:12:08, 5 October 2005 (UTC) 2442:is literally 'dog of mine'. 2143:22:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC) 2124:14:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC) 2095:14:52, 21 August 2005 (UTC) 1767:21:05, 5 January 2005 (UTC) 1117:17:37, 29 August 2005 (UTC) 1087:21:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC) 1074:15:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC) 1063:22:46, 27 August 2005 (UTC) 919:Template:WikiProject Russia 4897: 4515:Eastern and Central Europe 4509:19:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC) 4489:12:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC) 4472:19:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC) 4438:12:23, 16 April 2013 (UTC) 4251:12:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC) 3872:) 08:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC) 3856:) 14:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC) 3828:07:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC) 3640:For the recommended part: 3409:), not little random dots. 3279:11:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC) 3019:Magyars, Khanty, and Mansi 2748:would be pure guesswork. 2567:17:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC) 2331:00:01, 26 March 2005 (UTC) 2062:I've got it now - cheers! 942:project's importance scale 814:project's importance scale 704:project's importance scale 599:project's importance scale 485:and check for start-class. 350:project's importance scale 4801:C-Class language articles 4632:08:53, 16 July 2022 (UTC) 4616:" is a different thing. 2859:14:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC) 2837:13:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC) 2596:01:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC) 2591:to me. A false cognate? 2549:05:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 2452:04:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC) 2425:This dog is mine : 2415:Mu koer jooksis ära 2353:22:14, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) 2059:12:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 2039:11:42, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1991:09:03, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1907:01:25, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1736:Or possibly the light is 1194:18:47, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC) 977: 957: 935: 893:dedicated to coverage of 855: 842:Language & literature 807: 735: 697: 630: 592: 525: 356: 343: 269: 248: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 4831:C-Class Finland articles 4816:C-Class Hungary articles 4786:C-Class Estonia articles 4718:13:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC) 4306:07:54, 3 July 2010 (UTC) 4290:18:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC) 4274:17:23, 2 July 2010 (UTC) 4122:No problem here either. 3949:20:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC) 3890:08:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC) 3704:17:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC) 3672:11:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC) 3609:15:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC) 3498:20:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC) 3462:It looks much better! -- 3426:yoroshiku onegaishimasu! 3263:00:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 2914:09:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC) 2534:18:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC) 2507:23:49, 24 May 2006 (UTC) 2427:See koer on minu oma 2397:21:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC) 2366:23:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC) 2237:12:54, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) 2066:01:01, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC) 2024:09:51, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 2000:09:13, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1963:03:16, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1932:09:05, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1872:21:33, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1853:11:04, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1803:21:05, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1785:16:05, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1744:20:13, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1732:16:05, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1723:20:10, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1707:18:02, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1681:02:31, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1673:14:33, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1656:13:56, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1585:12:37, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1550:15:57, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1493:11:45, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1447:23:36, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1405:22:16, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1270:16:59, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1238:22:18, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1223:19:04, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC) 1147:18:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC) 4846:C-Class Russia articles 4674:We have a list over at 2275:00:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC) 1890:22:40, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1860:23:24, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1837:10:45, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1816:00:55, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1593:13:26, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1514:11:59, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1459:00:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1430:22:36, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC) 1278:17:37, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC) 906:, or contribute to the 3323:Stacey Doljack Borsody 3293:Stacey Doljack Borsody 3049:Stacey Doljack Borsody 2852:Finno-Ugrian languages 2700:) 'tree'; (2) English 2394:Stacey Doljack Borsody 2186:Personal attack parole 1773:I had been happy with 1392:which is dedicated to 1251:Balto-Slavic languages 1169:Including more critics 974: 954: 230:This article is rated 75:avoid personal attacks 4314:Mutually intelligible 4199:= Ingrian Karelian ? 4191:Was Larin Paraske an 3922:Ural-Altaic languages 3806:Parameter error in {{ 3168:comment was added by 2737:, etc. all come from 2170:Finno-Ugric languages 1951:do not belong to the 973: 953: 556:WikiProject Languages 298:Finno-Ugric languages 234:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 100:Neutral point of view 25:Finno-Ugric languages 4020:Quote from the text: 3136:The word comes from 2797:Disputes/Marcantonio 2148: 897:on Knowledge (XXG). 105:No original research 4726:typo: "Komi-Peryak" 4535:Finno-Ugric as name 4520:make the change. -- 4054:Estonian and Votic 3739:Tappara-Tabar-Topor 3301:The Ugric Languages 2660:'tree, wood' (from 2337:"My" is a separate 2164:Article editing ban 1957:Samoyedic languages 1283:About László Marácz 766:WikiProject Finland 661:WikiProject Hungary 303:WikiProject Estonia 4446:Penutian languages 2919:Celtic substratum? 2339:possessive pronoun 1949:Yukaghir languages 975: 955: 908:project discussion 886:WikiProject Russia 236:content assessment 86:dispute resolution 47: 4634: 4622:comment added by 4604: 4588:comment added by 4474: 4458:comment added by 4440: 4428:comment added by 4304: 4272: 4213:karjalaisperäisiä 4143:This article vs. 4106:comment added by 4084: 4068:comment added by 4050: 4038:comment added by 3971: 3959:comment added by 3905:comment added by 3880:comment added by 3864:comment added by 3848:comment added by 3818:comment added by 3803:978-951-746-969-1 3770:comment added by 3749:comment added by 3723:comment added by 3702: 3594: 3578:comment added by 3357: 3345:comment added by 3265: 3253:comment added by 3239: 3223:comment added by 3202:comment added by 3181: 3118: 3106:comment added by 3079: 3067:comment added by 3042: 3030:comment added by 2989: 2946: 2930:comment added by 2650:semantic change). 2618: 2606:comment added by 2536: 2520:comment added by 2385:That dog is mine. 2333: 2321:comment added by 2267: 2251:comment added by 2236: 2150:User:Antifinnugor 2141: 2058: 2023: 1990: 1931: 1889: 1852: 1836: 1802: 1769: 1753:comment added by 1706: 1672: 1655: 1584: 1549: 1513: 1492: 1429: 1339: 1269: 1222: 1193: 1149: 1133:comment added by 1050: 1049: 1031: 1030: 996: 995: 992: 991: 988: 987: 824: 823: 820: 819: 714: 713: 710: 709: 609: 608: 605: 604: 579:language articles 504: 503: 500: 499: 496: 495: 492: 491: 216: 215: 66:Assume good faith 43: 4888: 4764: 4701:Hello everyone, 4682: 4676:Uralic languages 4570: 4502: 4404: 4377:Florian Blaschke 4300: 4298: 4294:Done. Cheers, -- 4287: 4268: 4266: 4174: 4158: 4145:Uralic languages 4130: 4118: 4089:Quate from text: 3928: 3917: 3892: 3873: 3857: 3830: 3811: 3782: 3761: 3735: 3698: 3573: 3470: 3466: 3437: 3433: 3340: 3214: 3163: 2981: 2824:Title of article 2601: 2241:Possible origins 2228: 2133: 2050: 2015: 2009:read the article 1982: 1953:Uralic languages 1923: 1881: 1844: 1828: 1810:Image:Rs-map.png 1794: 1698: 1664: 1647: 1576: 1541: 1505: 1484: 1421: 1337: 1261: 1214: 1185: 1045: 1017: 1016: 1006: 998: 924: 923: 920: 917: 914: 880: 875: 874: 873: 864: 857: 856: 851: 848: 833: 826: 798: 791: 790: 789:Finland articles 787: 784: 781: 760: 755: 754: 753: 744: 737: 736: 731: 723: 716: 686: 685: 684:Hungary articles 682: 679: 676: 655: 650: 649: 648: 639: 632: 631: 626: 618: 611: 581: 580: 577: 574: 571: 550: 545: 544: 534: 527: 526: 521: 513: 506: 409:Article requests 398: 391: 390: 358: 332: 331: 330:Estonia articles 328: 325: 322: 294: 289: 288: 287: 278: 271: 270: 265: 257: 250: 233: 227: 226: 218: 210: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 4896: 4895: 4891: 4890: 4889: 4887: 4886: 4885: 4776: 4775: 4762: 4699: 4680: 4641: 4568: 4537: 4517: 4500: 4419: 4402: 4400:discussion.) -- 4357: 4326:Ordinary Person 4316: 4296: 4285: 4264: 4259: 4237:. That is what 4189: 4172: 4156: 4148: 4128: 4101: 4017: 3926: 3900: 3875: 3859: 3843: 3837: 3813: 3805: 3788: 3765: 3744: 3741: 3718: 3482: 3468: 3464: 3435: 3431: 3391: 3303: 3286: 3271: 3245: 3243:Reword Majority 3197: 3164:—The preceding 3160: 3088: 3021: 3003: 2921: 2889: 2872:Cheers! Rueter 2834:195.188.183.124 2826: 2816:Jaakko Häkkinen 2799: 2774: 2689:) are all from 2630:Scottish Gaelic 2564:Jaakko Häkkinen 2493:Jaakko Häkkinen 2459: 2388:That is my dog. 2308: 2243: 2154: 2113: 1777:in the legend. 1713: 1688: 1557: 1383:Magyar Tudomány 1285: 1247: 1171: 1155:203.173.212.141 1055: 1046: 1040: 1011: 938:High-importance 922:Russia articles 921: 918: 915: 912: 911: 900:To participate: 876: 871: 869: 850:High‑importance 849: 839: 810:High-importance 788: 785: 782: 779: 778: 756: 751: 749: 730:High‑importance 729: 700:High-importance 683: 680: 677: 674: 673: 651: 646: 644: 625:High‑importance 624: 595:High-importance 578: 575: 572: 569: 568: 548:Language portal 546: 539: 520:High‑importance 519: 488: 389: 329: 326: 323: 320: 319: 290: 285: 283: 263: 231: 212: 211: 206: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 4894: 4892: 4884: 4883: 4878: 4873: 4868: 4863: 4858: 4853: 4848: 4843: 4838: 4833: 4828: 4823: 4818: 4813: 4808: 4803: 4798: 4793: 4788: 4778: 4777: 4774: 4773: 4758: 4751: 4744: 4743: 4742: 4739: 4736: 4735:why no Ludian? 4733: 4730: 4727: 4698: 4695: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4691: 4640: 4637: 4636: 4635: 4580: 4579: 4560: 4557: 4536: 4533: 4516: 4513: 4512: 4511: 4481:81.183.245.214 4476: 4475: 4449: 4430:81.183.245.214 4418: 4415: 4414: 4413: 4393: 4392: 4364: 4363: 4356: 4353: 4352: 4351: 4315: 4312: 4311: 4310: 4309: 4308: 4258: 4255: 4254: 4253: 4202: 4188: 4185: 4184: 4183: 4147: 4141: 4140: 4139: 4086: 4085: 4016: 4013: 4012: 4011: 4010: 4009: 3978: 3977: 3976: 3975: 3974: 3973: 3972: 3937: 3836: 3833: 3832: 3831: 3820:88.115.122.217 3787: 3784: 3751:130.234.68.206 3740: 3737: 3658: 3653: 3652: 3648: 3645: 3637: 3634: 3632: 3630: 3629: 3626: 3622: 3615: 3612: 3611: 3561: 3560: 3557: 3553: 3549: 3538: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3521: 3520: 3516: 3513: 3501: 3500: 3481: 3478: 3477: 3476: 3475: 3474: 3457: 3456: 3421: 3420: 3417: 3410: 3390: 3387: 3386: 3385: 3384: 3383: 3382: 3381: 3361: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3334: 3333: 3302: 3299: 3285: 3282: 3270: 3267: 3244: 3241: 3193: 3192: 3170:168.103.81.226 3159: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3153: 3152: 3131: 3130: 3120: 3119: 3087: 3086:Pronunciation? 3084: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3055: 3054: 3020: 3017: 3002: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2995: 2994: 2993: 2962: 2961: 2920: 2917: 2902: 2901: 2888: 2885: 2874:128.214.20.122 2862: 2861: 2825: 2822: 2798: 2795: 2794: 2793: 2773: 2770: 2769: 2768: 2767: 2766: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2762: 2761: 2760: 2651: 2598: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2571: 2570: 2569: 2554: 2553: 2552: 2551: 2538: 2537: 2510: 2509: 2485: 2484: 2483: 2482: 2458: 2455: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2443: 2432: 2431: 2430: 2429: 2420: 2419: 2418: 2417: 2408: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2390: 2389: 2386: 2371: 2370: 2369: 2368: 2347:representation 2307: 2304: 2303: 2302: 2292:83.146.214.134 2277: 2276: 2242: 2239: 2200:Good behaviour 2153: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2112: 2109: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2070: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2028: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2002: 2001: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1938: 1937: 1936: 1935: 1934: 1933: 1901: 1900: 1899: 1898: 1892: 1891: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1838: 1818: 1817: 1787: 1786: 1775:"Finno-Permic" 1734: 1733: 1712: 1709: 1687: 1684: 1683: 1682: 1636: 1635: 1634: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1623: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1609: 1595: 1594: 1565: 1564: 1556: 1553: 1552: 1551: 1521:Heribert Illig 1516: 1515: 1461: 1460: 1450: 1440: 1439: 1432: 1431: 1394:Heribert Illig 1360: 1359: 1358: 1357: 1350: 1349: 1348: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1327: 1326: 1310:Rédei Károly: 1284: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1246: 1243: 1242: 1241: 1240: 1239: 1225: 1224: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1201: 1200: 1170: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1124: 1123: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1119: 1101: 1100: 1099: 1098: 1089: 1054: 1051: 1048: 1047: 1042: 1038: 1036: 1033: 1032: 1029: 1028: 1023: 1013: 1012: 1007: 1001: 994: 993: 990: 989: 986: 985: 976: 966: 965: 956: 946: 945: 934: 928: 927: 925: 898: 882: 881: 865: 853: 852: 834: 822: 821: 818: 817: 806: 800: 799: 792: 775:the discussion 762: 761: 758:Finland portal 745: 733: 732: 724: 712: 711: 708: 707: 696: 690: 689: 687: 670:the discussion 657: 656: 653:Hungary portal 640: 628: 627: 619: 607: 606: 603: 602: 591: 585: 584: 582: 565:the discussion 552: 551: 535: 523: 522: 514: 502: 501: 498: 497: 494: 493: 490: 489: 487: 486: 471: 456: 454:Portal:Estonia 443: 432: 417: 402: 400: 399: 388: 387: 382: 377: 372: 366: 363: 362: 354: 353: 346:Mid-importance 342: 336: 335: 333: 296: 295: 292:Estonia portal 279: 267: 266: 264:Mid‑importance 258: 246: 245: 239: 228: 214: 213: 204: 202: 201: 198: 197: 181: 180: 118: 117: 113: 112: 107: 102: 93: 92: 90: 89: 82: 77: 68: 62: 60: 59: 48: 39: 38: 35: 34: 28: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4893: 4882: 4879: 4877: 4874: 4872: 4869: 4867: 4864: 4862: 4859: 4857: 4854: 4852: 4849: 4847: 4844: 4842: 4839: 4837: 4834: 4832: 4829: 4827: 4824: 4822: 4819: 4817: 4814: 4812: 4809: 4807: 4804: 4802: 4799: 4797: 4794: 4792: 4789: 4787: 4784: 4783: 4781: 4772: 4769: 4765: 4759: 4756: 4755:URHIA project 4752: 4749: 4745: 4740: 4737: 4734: 4731: 4728: 4725: 4724: 4722: 4721: 4720: 4719: 4715: 4711: 4707: 4702: 4696: 4690: 4687: 4683: 4677: 4673: 4672: 4671: 4667: 4663: 4658: 4657: 4656: 4655: 4651: 4647: 4646:153.31.112.24 4638: 4633: 4629: 4625: 4621: 4615: 4611: 4607: 4606: 4605: 4603: 4599: 4595: 4591: 4587: 4578: 4575: 4571: 4565: 4561: 4558: 4554: 4553: 4552: 4551: 4547: 4543: 4542:Hunor-Koppany 4534: 4532: 4531: 4527: 4523: 4514: 4510: 4507: 4503: 4497: 4493: 4492: 4491: 4490: 4486: 4482: 4473: 4469: 4465: 4461: 4457: 4450: 4447: 4443: 4442: 4441: 4439: 4435: 4431: 4427: 4416: 4412: 4409: 4405: 4399: 4395: 4394: 4389: 4388: 4387: 4386: 4382: 4378: 4372: 4368: 4362: 4359: 4358: 4355:Weak argument 4354: 4350: 4346: 4342: 4338: 4337: 4336: 4335: 4331: 4327: 4322: 4321: 4313: 4307: 4303: 4299: 4293: 4292: 4291: 4288: 4282: 4278: 4277: 4276: 4275: 4271: 4267: 4256: 4252: 4248: 4244: 4240: 4236: 4232: 4231: 4230: 4229: 4225: 4221: 4220:62.65.214.190 4217: 4216: 4214: 4208: 4206: 4200: 4198: 4194: 4187:Larin Paraske 4186: 4182: 4179: 4175: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4166: 4163: 4159: 4152: 4146: 4142: 4138: 4135: 4131: 4125: 4121: 4120: 4119: 4117: 4113: 4109: 4108:91.155.177.30 4105: 4098: 4094: 4093: 4090: 4083: 4079: 4075: 4071: 4067: 4061: 4060:false friends 4057: 4053: 4052: 4051: 4049: 4045: 4041: 4040:91.155.177.30 4037: 4029: 4025: 4024: 4021: 4014: 4007: 4003: 3999: 3994: 3993: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3979: 3970: 3966: 3962: 3958: 3952: 3951: 3950: 3946: 3942: 3941:HammerFilmFan 3938: 3936: 3933: 3929: 3923: 3919: 3918: 3916: 3912: 3908: 3907:184.96.238.72 3904: 3898: 3897: 3896: 3895: 3894: 3891: 3887: 3883: 3882:86.141.122.96 3879: 3871: 3867: 3863: 3855: 3851: 3847: 3842: 3834: 3829: 3825: 3821: 3817: 3809: 3804: 3801: 3797: 3796: 3795: 3792: 3785: 3783: 3781: 3777: 3773: 3772:91.155.177.30 3769: 3762: 3760: 3756: 3752: 3748: 3738: 3736: 3734: 3730: 3726: 3725:91.155.177.30 3722: 3714: 3710: 3706: 3705: 3701: 3697: 3693: 3689: 3686: 3683: 3679: 3674: 3673: 3669: 3665: 3661: 3657: 3649: 3646: 3643: 3642: 3641: 3638: 3627: 3623: 3620: 3619: 3618: 3610: 3606: 3602: 3597: 3596: 3595: 3593: 3589: 3585: 3581: 3577: 3571: 3567: 3558: 3554: 3550: 3546: 3545: 3544: 3541: 3534: 3530: 3526: 3525: 3524: 3517: 3514: 3510: 3509: 3508: 3505: 3499: 3495: 3491: 3490:HammerFilmFan 3487: 3486: 3485: 3479: 3473: 3467: 3461: 3460: 3459: 3458: 3455: 3451: 3447: 3443: 3442: 3441: 3440: 3434: 3428: 3427: 3418: 3415: 3411: 3408: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3399: 3396: 3388: 3380: 3376: 3372: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3364: 3363: 3362: 3356: 3352: 3348: 3344: 3338: 3337: 3336: 3335: 3332: 3328: 3324: 3320: 3319: 3318: 3317: 3313: 3309: 3300: 3298: 3297: 3294: 3289: 3283: 3281: 3280: 3277: 3276:128.214.205.4 3268: 3266: 3264: 3260: 3256: 3252: 3242: 3240: 3238: 3234: 3230: 3226: 3222: 3215: 3213: 3209: 3205: 3204:91.155.177.30 3201: 3191: 3188: 3184: 3183: 3182: 3179: 3175: 3171: 3167: 3157: 3151: 3147: 3143: 3139: 3135: 3134: 3133: 3132: 3129: 3126: 3122: 3121: 3117: 3113: 3109: 3105: 3099: 3098: 3097: 3096: 3093: 3085: 3078: 3074: 3070: 3066: 3059: 3058: 3057: 3056: 3053: 3050: 3045: 3044: 3043: 3041: 3037: 3033: 3029: 3018: 3016: 3015: 3012: 3008: 3000: 2992: 2988: 2986: 2980: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2971: 2966: 2965: 2964: 2963: 2960: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2948: 2947: 2945: 2941: 2937: 2933: 2929: 2918: 2916: 2915: 2912: 2907: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2894: 2886: 2884: 2883: 2879: 2875: 2871: 2867: 2860: 2857: 2853: 2849: 2845: 2841: 2840: 2839: 2838: 2835: 2831: 2823: 2821: 2820: 2817: 2813: 2809: 2808: 2805: 2796: 2792: 2789: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2782: 2779: 2771: 2759: 2755: 2751: 2747: 2743: 2740: 2739:Indo-European 2736: 2732: 2729: 2725: 2721: 2718: 2714: 2713:Indo-European 2710: 2707: 2703: 2699: 2695: 2692: 2688: 2684: 2680: 2677: 2673: 2670: 2666: 2663: 2659: 2656: 2652: 2649: 2645: 2641: 2638: 2634: 2631: 2627: 2624: 2620: 2619: 2617: 2613: 2609: 2605: 2599: 2597: 2594: 2590: 2586: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2577: 2576: 2575: 2568: 2565: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2557: 2556: 2555: 2550: 2547: 2542: 2541: 2540: 2539: 2535: 2531: 2527: 2523: 2519: 2512: 2511: 2508: 2505: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2494: 2490: 2481: 2478: 2473: 2472: 2471: 2470: 2469: 2468: 2465: 2456: 2454: 2453: 2450: 2441: 2436: 2435: 2434: 2433: 2428: 2424: 2423: 2422: 2421: 2416: 2412: 2411: 2410: 2409: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2399: 2398: 2395: 2387: 2384: 2383: 2382: 2380: 2376: 2367: 2364: 2360: 2355: 2354: 2352: 2348: 2344: 2340: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2332: 2328: 2324: 2320: 2314: 2305: 2301: 2297: 2293: 2289: 2288: 2287: 2286: 2283: 2274: 2270: 2269: 2268: 2266: 2262: 2258: 2254: 2250: 2240: 2238: 2235: 2233: 2227: 2223: 2222: 2218: 2215: 2214: 2210: 2209: 2205: 2202: 2201: 2197: 2196: 2192: 2188: 2187: 2183: 2182: 2178: 2175: 2171: 2166: 2165: 2161: 2159: 2151: 2144: 2140: 2138: 2132: 2128: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2122: 2118: 2110: 2096: 2093: 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2080: 2079: 2078: 2077: 2065: 2061: 2060: 2057: 2055: 2049: 2045: 2041: 2040: 2038: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2022: 2020: 2014: 2010: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 1999: 1994: 1993: 1992: 1989: 1987: 1981: 1977: 1962: 1958: 1954: 1950: 1946: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1939: 1930: 1928: 1922: 1918: 1914: 1913: 1912: 1911: 1910: 1909: 1908: 1906: 1896: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1888: 1886: 1880: 1875: 1874: 1873: 1871: 1859: 1855: 1854: 1851: 1849: 1843: 1839: 1835: 1833: 1827: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1815: 1811: 1806: 1805: 1804: 1801: 1799: 1793: 1784: 1780: 1776: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1745: 1743: 1739: 1731: 1726: 1725: 1724: 1722: 1718: 1710: 1708: 1705: 1703: 1697: 1693: 1685: 1680: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1671: 1669: 1663: 1657: 1654: 1652: 1646: 1642: 1629: 1624: 1621: 1620: 1618: 1617: 1615: 1610: 1607: 1606: 1604: 1603: 1601: 1600: 1599: 1592: 1588: 1587: 1586: 1583: 1581: 1575: 1571: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1554: 1548: 1546: 1540: 1536: 1531: 1526: 1522: 1518: 1517: 1512: 1510: 1504: 1500: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1491: 1489: 1483: 1479: 1474: 1470: 1466: 1458: 1453: 1452: 1451: 1448: 1446: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1428: 1426: 1420: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1404: 1400: 1397: 1395: 1391: 1386: 1384: 1379: 1377: 1371: 1368: 1365: 1364:Great Moravia 1354: 1353: 1351: 1346: 1345: 1343: 1335: 1334: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1324: 1320: 1319:963-506-515-9 1317: 1313: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1304: 1303: 1300: 1295: 1292: 1290: 1282: 1277: 1273: 1272: 1271: 1268: 1266: 1260: 1256: 1252: 1245:Another case? 1244: 1237: 1233: 1229: 1228: 1227: 1226: 1221: 1219: 1213: 1210: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1197: 1196: 1195: 1192: 1190: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1168: 1164: 1160: 1156: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1148: 1144: 1140: 1136: 1132: 1118: 1115: 1111: 1107: 1106: 1105: 1104: 1103: 1102: 1097: 1094: 1090: 1088: 1085: 1081: 1077: 1076: 1075: 1072: 1067: 1066: 1065: 1064: 1061: 1052: 1035: 1034: 1027: 1024: 1022: 1019: 1018: 1015: 1014: 1010: 1005: 1000: 999: 983: 982: 972: 968: 967: 963: 962: 952: 948: 947: 943: 939: 933: 930: 929: 926: 909: 905: 901: 896: 892: 888: 887: 879: 878:Russia portal 868: 866: 863: 859: 858: 854: 847: 843: 838: 835: 832: 828: 815: 811: 805: 802: 801: 797: 793: 776: 772: 768: 767: 759: 748: 746: 743: 739: 738: 734: 728: 725: 722: 718: 705: 701: 695: 692: 691: 688: 671: 667: 663: 662: 654: 643: 641: 638: 634: 633: 629: 623: 620: 617: 613: 600: 596: 590: 587: 586: 583: 566: 562: 558: 557: 549: 543: 538: 536: 533: 529: 528: 524: 518: 515: 512: 508: 484: 483:stub-articles 480: 478: 477: 472: 469: 465: 463: 462: 457: 455: 452: 450: 449: 444: 441: 439: 438: 433: 430: 426: 424: 423: 418: 416: 413: 411: 410: 405: 404: 401: 397: 393: 392: 386: 383: 381: 378: 376: 373: 371: 368: 367: 365: 364: 360: 359: 355: 351: 347: 341: 338: 337: 334: 317: 313: 309: 305: 304: 299: 293: 282: 280: 277: 273: 272: 268: 262: 259: 256: 252: 247: 243: 237: 229: 225: 220: 219: 200: 199: 196: 192: 189: 187: 183: 182: 177: 173: 170: 167: 163: 159: 155: 152: 149: 146: 143: 140: 137: 134: 131: 127: 124: 123:Find sources: 120: 119: 111: 110:Verifiability 108: 106: 103: 101: 98: 97: 96: 87: 83: 81: 78: 76: 72: 69: 67: 64: 63: 57: 53: 52:Learn to edit 49: 46: 41: 40: 37: 36: 32: 26: 22: 18: 17: 4748:have sources 4747: 4703: 4700: 4678:, though. -- 4642: 4624:85.249.44.69 4618:— Preceding 4610:Finno-Permic 4584:— Preceding 4581: 4563: 4538: 4522:StarOfFlames 4518: 4495: 4477: 4454:— Preceding 4424:— Preceding 4420: 4373: 4369: 4365: 4360: 4323: 4319: 4317: 4260: 4238: 4218: 4212: 4210: 4209: 4201: 4193:Ingrian Finn 4190: 4153: 4149: 4123: 4099: 4095: 4091: 4088: 4087: 4064:— Preceding 4055: 4034:— Preceding 4030: 4026: 4022: 4019: 4018: 3983:84.236.41.32 3961:79.79.29.112 3955:— Preceding 3866:86.137.170.8 3850:87.194.34.71 3838: 3810:}}: checksum 3793: 3789: 3763: 3742: 3715: 3711: 3707: 3684: 3678:Antifinnugor 3675: 3662: 3655: 3654: 3639: 3631: 3613: 3562: 3542: 3539: 3522: 3507:Some facts: 3506: 3502: 3483: 3480:Common sense 3425: 3422: 3407:this article 3400: 3392: 3371:67.41.119.57 3304: 3290: 3287: 3272: 3255:62.65.192.23 3249:— Preceding 3246: 3219:— Preceding 3216: 3194: 3161: 3137: 3108:70.89.165.90 3102:— Preceding 3089: 3063:— Preceding 3026:— Preceding 3022: 3004: 2984: 2926:— Preceding 2922: 2905: 2903: 2892: 2890: 2866:Finno-Ugrian 2865: 2863: 2851: 2848:Finno-Ugrian 2847: 2843: 2829: 2828:Isn't Finno- 2827: 2810: 2800: 2775: 2745: 2741: 2734: 2730: 2723: 2719: 2708: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2687:Middle Dutch 2682: 2678: 2671: 2664: 2657: 2643: 2639: 2637:Proto-Celtic 2632: 2625: 2623:Irish Gaelic 2608:91.153.62.71 2588: 2584: 2516:— Preceding 2486: 2460: 2447: 2439: 2426: 2414: 2391: 2378: 2374: 2372: 2346: 2342: 2323:68.76.192.70 2317:— Preceding 2312: 2309: 2278: 2247:— Preceding 2244: 2231: 2224: 2220: 2219: 2216: 2212: 2211: 2207: 2206: 2203: 2199: 2198: 2195:Passed 6-2. 2194: 2193: 2189: 2185: 2184: 2181:Passed 7-0. 2180: 2179: 2167: 2163: 2162: 2155: 2136: 2114: 2053: 2018: 2008: 1985: 1976:specifically 1975: 1972: 1926: 1902: 1884: 1867: 1847: 1831: 1797: 1788: 1778: 1774: 1749:— Preceding 1746: 1737: 1735: 1717:illustration 1714: 1701: 1691: 1689: 1667: 1658: 1650: 1640: 1637: 1616:Finno-Ugric 1596: 1579: 1569: 1566: 1558: 1544: 1534: 1529: 1524: 1508: 1498: 1487: 1477: 1472: 1468: 1464: 1462: 1449: 1441: 1433: 1424: 1414: 1410: 1401: 1398: 1387: 1382: 1380: 1372: 1369: 1361: 1328: 1322: 1311: 1305: 1296: 1293: 1288: 1286: 1264: 1248: 1217: 1199:peer-review: 1188: 1174: 1172: 1129:— Preceding 1125: 1109: 1080:contemporary 1079: 1056: 1008: 979: 959: 937: 904:project page 899: 884: 809: 764: 699: 659: 594: 554: 481:Add info to 474: 473: 459: 458: 446: 445: 435: 434: 420: 419: 407: 406: 345: 312:project page 301: 297: 242:WikiProjects 184: 171: 165: 157: 150: 144: 138: 132: 122: 94: 19:This is the 4286:Sander Säde 4102:—Preceding 3901:—Preceding 3876:—Preceding 3860:—Preceding 3844:—Preceding 3814:—Preceding 3766:—Preceding 3745:—Preceding 3719:—Preceding 3574:—Preceding 3552:(probably). 3395:current map 3347:67.40.37.41 3341:—Preceding 3308:67.40.37.41 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Thanks, 1641:linguistic 1473:Everything 1302:9075323115 316:discussion 4763:Trɔpʏliʊm 4710:GalaxMaps 4681:Trɔpʏliʊm 4569:Trɔpʏliʊm 4501:Trɔpʏliʊm 4460:Tropylium 4422:Siberia. 4403:Trɔpʏliʊm 4173:Trɔpʏliʊm 4157:Trɔpʏliʊm 4129:Trɔpʏliʊm 4070:Tropylium 3927:Trɔpʏliʊm 3625:language) 2906:languages 2896:origins: 2733:, German 2504:Saforrest 2373:The word 2363:Saforrest 2306:Odd gloss 2273:Hippophaë 2121:Hippophaë 1961:Hippophaë 1755:Dbachmann 1643:article. 1622:Hungarian 1523:. 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