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:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 2 - Knowledge

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356:. /7/ is kind of a special case; other special characters that look more like regular English are harder to decipher; the colon in Sto:lo makes the pronunciation "Stahlo" and the apostrophes in St'at'imc make in combination with the t a /tl/ sound (in other languages this is often a plosive or ejective t). Although I'm opposed to complex roman diacriticals like underscore x's and overscript lines and superscripts and such, the 7 has no simplification other than maybe an apostrophe; but it's not the convention for hnames that use it, i.e. in the English as used in th regions where those names are found. True we're seeing a lot more underscore-g but to me it's all about typability and ease of use. "7" is jarring to see and causes a head-scratch; but at least it's easy to make compared to other special characgters.... 448:
series include some bits that he wrote in Old English; these texts often use 7 as "and". I've read some Old English, although a somewhat simplified version, but I've never seen such a usage outside of Tolkien. Is this a common feature of Old English, or rather more rare? I don't see it used at all
274:
It is quite often the case. Autonyms of tribes are often quite different from their common name - and sometimes even derogatory terms from tribal enemies. While the source of the word Eskimo (still in use among Alaska tribes) may be debated, other examples include Sioux which traces to an Odawa term
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I meant to butt in by explaining that the "7" glottal stop characger is a print adaptation of a 7-like character wher e he tail drops below the baselin like a g or y; it's used in some native language orthographies and the ordinary 7-form hs becomde regularly used in major media like the
291:"Indigenously correct" names are standard-usage in Canadian, especially in B, media and acdemic circles. Nootka and Kwakiutl of names for particular gropus transposed to the whole ethno-linguistic group in each case; Kwakiutl is an anglicization (so-called) of 164:
Just venturing a guess here, but I assume that when an orthography for Sḵwx̱wú7mesh was being devised, they wanted letters that could be typed on an ordinary typewriter (ḵ and x̱ can be achieved on a typewriter by typing k or x, then backspace, then _).
116:, and I'm still not certain: what does it sound like? Is it perhaps like an ʿayin in Hebrew and related languages? The IPA version of the name of this group of people is sqʷχʷúʔməʃ I don't understand IPA, so I'm only guessing on the ʿayin. 558:
Tolkien represents the Old English writings of which I speak as the reminisces (sp.?) of an individual, not likely to be published to the individual's contemporaries, so I see how this would make sense. Thanks much for explanation!
323:- Makah is an English usage, though, adapted from another language, their name for htemslves is way more complex looking than that. The other two have been historically spelled and are on geographic names as Nitinat and Pacheena.) 215:
Again, this is pure speculation, but it's possible they avoided the apostrophe so that (for example) the consonant cluster could be spelled in a way distinct from the ejective stop . As for the section of
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menaing "speaks foreign language" while the Sioux call themselves various names including Lakota, Sicangu Oyate, etc., or Apache, possibly meaning "enemy" in Zuni but who call themselves Nde.
66: 45: 514:—less so in elaborate manuscripts such as fancy Bibles, but to a frequently bewildering extent in manuscripts intended for merely educational or private use. In modern editions, except for 252:
It's interesting how many native Canadian names are "officially" in an unusual spelling like that, when I (and I assume others) know them as simply "Squamish". This is also the case with
59: 55: 51: 348:, where there was a notable logging protest back in the '80s; that's an older spelling system of hte language in question; today it might be "Axac" or "Aca7" I'm not sure which. 146:
Wonder where that came from; "7" isn't really part of any transcription scheme I've come across before (except that in old Internet ASCII Arabic, "7" means the pharyngeal ح).
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right (although the version used in the insular pointed minuscule script in which most OE manuscripts are written looks even more like a 7). I'm off to look for an image.
311:; "Nuu-cha-nulth" in that language mans "along the outside" ("of the mountains" or "of the coast" is implied apparently); not all members of th ethnic group accept it ( 336:
familir to readers of English articles concerning BC (i.e. I mean in regular media in that context, local papers and such...; one place that comes to mind is
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to mean all peoples speaking a lreated language; and yes some enmities were involved in that case and in others; Nootka means "go around" in the now-named
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Aleph is always a glottal stop in old Hebrew (except where it became silent in syllable-final position rather early, as in the word for "prophet" נביא).
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The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the
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isn't on a typewriter, and they probably wanted to keep ? free for use as a punctuation mark, so they picked 7 as being roughly the same shape as
112:, a First Nations people in the southern part of far western Canada. Not having seen a 7 used as a letter before, I was curious and looked up 37: 21: 113: 568: 553: 527: 481: 458: 427: 408: 394: 365: 284: 269: 235: 210: 184: 155: 139: 125: 296: 487: 189:
The somewhat traditional general-purpose way of transcribing a glottal stop on typewriters was as an apostrophe (as in
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was professionally a professor of Old English, and therefore highly familiar with its use. Two volumes of the
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Now that this I've understood a bit better (thanks!), I was curious about another use of 7: as you may know,
304: 490:, as at the very beginning and the middle of the second line. Besides using the symbol for the conjunction 224:
as a letter in an orthography, not about the various ways the sound can be represented orthographically. —
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The Tironian et has its own Unicode entity at U+204A ⁊; it's still used in Irish as an abbreviation for
265: 217: 198: 136: 510:. To save parchment and labor, medieval scribes were wont to make liberal use of abbreviations and 423: 307:, which were teh driections given Capt Cook when he popped by; the people at that location are the 404: 361: 280: 206: 151: 316: 345: 308: 564: 454: 190: 121: 292: 439: 261: 391: 337: 257: 548: 539: 523: 477: 465: 420: 353: 253: 230: 179: 498:), scribes also found it useful for representing the negative or oppositional prefix 400: 357: 276: 202: 147: 560: 450: 341: 132: 117: 515: 300: 543: 519: 473: 225: 174: 74: 312: 349: 416: 383: 320: 464:
Yep, it's very common in OE and other medieval manuscripts. See
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is a Skwxwu7mesh village whose anglicization is better known as
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and though I'd haev to give it some thought as to examples, it
390:, it seems the former is more often a glottal stop in Hebrew. 201:(devoted to languages in Canada) which doesn't mention "7"... 449:
when I browse random articles on the Old English Knowledge.
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When I saw the question header, I immediately thought of
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Welcome to the Knowledge Language Reference Desk Archives
220:, 7 isn't mentioned because that article is about using 108:
Reading at random, I came across an article about the
538:"and". (See the image at the bottom left of the page 131:
Looking at the IPA, the 7 seems to represent /ʔ/, a
486:Here, there are lots of them scattered throughout 518:editions, these are almost invariably expanded. 197:, etc.). By the way, we have an article section 199:Glottal_stop_(letter)#Vernacular_orthographies 260:(Kwakiutl). Has this happened in the US too? 8: 533: 340:, on the west side of Lillooet Lake from 49: 36: 65: 43: 7: 506:), corresponding to modern German 32: 1: 468:, including the image at top 33: 569:12:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC) 554:06:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC) 528:02:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC) 482:01:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC) 459:01:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC) 428:15:24, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 409:13:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 395:00:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 382:Looking at the articles for 366:23:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 285:20:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 270:06:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 236:13:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 211:13:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 185:06:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 156:23:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 140:22:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 126:22:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 445:The History of Middle-earth 591: 18:Knowledge:Reference desk 305:Nuu-chah-nulth language 534: 195:Saltillo (linguistics) 87:current reference desk 299:that was extended by 218:Glottal stop (letter) 114:Sḵwx̱wú7mesh language 295:, t he people at 93: 92: 73: 72: 582: 537: 440:J. R. R. Tolkien 434:Somewhat related 344:, on the fan or 223: 172: 168: 75: 34: 590: 589: 585: 584: 583: 581: 580: 579: 436: 106: 104:"7" as a letter 101: 30: 29: 28: 12: 11: 5: 588: 586: 578: 577: 576: 575: 574: 573: 572: 571: 540:Tironian notes 466:Tironian notes 435: 432: 431: 430: 413: 412: 411: 379: 378: 377: 376: 375: 374: 373: 372: 371: 370: 369: 368: 354:Stawamus Chief 254:Nuu-chah-nulth 245: 244: 243: 242: 241: 240: 239: 238: 159: 158: 143: 142: 105: 102: 100: 97: 95: 91: 90: 82: 81: 71: 70: 64: 48: 41: 40: 31: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 587: 570: 566: 562: 557: 556: 555: 552: 551: 547: 546: 541: 536: 531: 530: 529: 525: 521: 517: 513: 509: 505: 501: 497: 493: 489: 485: 484: 483: 479: 475: 471: 467: 463: 462: 461: 460: 456: 452: 447: 446: 441: 433: 429: 426: 424: 422: 418: 414: 410: 406: 402: 398: 397: 396: 393: 389: 385: 381: 380: 367: 363: 359: 355: 351: 347: 343: 339: 335: 331: 330:Vancouver Sun 326: 322: 318: 314: 310: 306: 302: 298: 294: 290: 289: 288: 287: 286: 282: 278: 273: 272: 271: 267: 263: 259: 258:Kwakwaka'wakw 256:(Nootka) and 255: 251: 250: 249: 248: 247: 246: 237: 234: 233: 229: 228: 219: 214: 213: 212: 208: 204: 200: 196: 192: 188: 187: 186: 183: 182: 178: 177: 163: 162: 161: 160: 157: 153: 149: 145: 144: 141: 138: 134: 130: 129: 128: 127: 123: 119: 115: 111: 103: 98: 96: 88: 84: 83: 80: 77: 76: 68: 61: 57: 53: 47: 42: 39: 38:Language desk 35: 27: 23: 19: 549: 544: 511: 507: 503: 499: 495: 491: 469: 443: 437: 342:Mount Currie 333: 329: 324: 231: 226: 180: 175: 133:glottal stop 110:Sḵwx̱wú7mesh 107: 94: 78: 297:Fort Rupert 262:Adam Bishop 516:diplomatic 392:jnestorius 317:Pacheedaht 301:Franz Boas 137:Algebraist 99:November 2 67:November 3 46:November 1 488:this page 421:Richardrj 346:Ure Creek 309:Muchalaht 50:<< 401:AnonMoos 358:Skookum1 313:Ditidaht 277:Rmhermen 203:AnonMoos 191:Hawaiian 148:AnonMoos 56:November 26:Language 24:‎ | 22:Archives 20:‎ | 561:Nyttend 451:Nyttend 350:Sta7mes 293:Kwagyul 118:Nyttend 89:pages. 325:Anyway 512:notae 417:Se7en 384:Aleph 321:Makah 69:: --> 63:: --> 62:: --> 44:< 16:< 565:talk 542:.) — 535:agus 524:talk 520:Deor 508:ent- 504:ond- 502:(or 500:and- 494:(or 478:talk 474:Deor 470:left 455:talk 419:. -- 405:talk 388:Ayin 386:and 362:talk 338:Axa7 281:talk 266:talk 207:talk 152:talk 122:talk 496:ond 492:and 173:. — 60:Dec 52:Oct 567:) 550:gr 545:An 526:) 480:) 457:) 407:) 364:) 334:is 319:, 315:, 283:) 268:) 232:gr 227:An 209:) 193:, 181:gr 176:An 154:) 135:. 124:) 58:| 54:| 563:( 522:( 476:( 453:( 403:( 360:( 279:( 264:( 222:ʔ 205:( 171:ʔ 167:ʔ 150:( 120:(

Index

Knowledge:Reference desk
Archives
Language
Language desk
November 1
Oct
November
Dec
November 3
current reference desk
Sḵwx̱wú7mesh
Sḵwx̱wú7mesh language
Nyttend
talk
22:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
glottal stop
Algebraist
22:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
AnonMoos
talk
23:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
An
gr
06:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Hawaiian
Saltillo (linguistics)
Glottal_stop_(letter)#Vernacular_orthographies
AnonMoos
talk
13:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

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