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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Red Demo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Demos are assumed non-notable per WP:MUSIC. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. WP:CORP applies clearly - local coverage of local chapters does not create significant notability (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Florida Junior Classical League (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable state chapter of the NJCL. There are no external references and it does not pass WP:CLUB. Coverage is only local in scope and the limited sourced encyclopedic information is better presented in a sub-list of the main article, per WP:CLUB. Reywas92 23:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep I appreciate that these have been nominated separately, because some of the articles have more content than others. The state chapters of the NJCL each have their own annual conventions, and many of those competitions get significant coverage in the press . While someone will note that "it's only within the state", I see no difference between this and Florida High School Athletic Association, which, in turn, is a member of the National Federation of State HSAAs. Mandsford 15:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Multiple non-primary non-local reliable sources demonstrating notability can easily be found using the news search button at the top of this AFD discussion. I have included a few (finding these took less than 2 minutes):
Example 1 – written by Orlando Sentinel staff writer
Example 2 – written by Orlando Sentinel staff writer
Example 3 – Central Tampa News & Tribune staff writer via TBO.com
Example 4 Tampa Tribune staff writer
Example 5 Tampa Tribune staff writer
Daytona Beach News staff writer
Additionally, the user who nominated this article for deletion contends that a single article for the National organization's state chapters would be more appropriate than individual articles for each (major part of his/her argument for deleting this page). The National Junior Classical League has 51 state-level chapters in the U.S. and Canada. Even with limited content devoted to each of these 51 chapters, a single article would likely reach beyond an acceptable article size. WP:SIZE
I also wish to highlight the nominating user's previous actions regarding this individual state chapter pages v. a single group state chapter page, namely redirecting each of the ten or so existing state chapter pages to the group state chapter page he/she created, all w/o any discussion. MisterE2123Five6 (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2010 (UTC) NOTE: User:MisterE2123Five6 appears to have made few or no contributions outside of this topic; it is hard to tell since he/she has posted under multiple usernames.
These, especially this and this, would not be considered "substantial", which is part of the requirements for notability. Even with some pay-per-view articles, there is nothing preventing the list as described at WP:CLUB. Please do not make stuff up hypothesizing about the length of a convenient merged list. Although there are 51 state chapters, only a fraction of them even attend nationals, have conventions, or even have a web site. The length of the list is perfectly acceptable so let's wait until it actually does reach excessive length to split it. BTW, previous actions may have been hasty but should bear absolutely no effect on the public discussion now. Reywas92 23:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep See my comments here for my rationale. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 19:19, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. Local news stories do not cut it, and this has been confirmed as the consensus yet again at WP:CORP. Also, what encylopedic information is provided in the article? None. Abductive (reasoning) 09:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete Individual chapters of a national organization do not get their own article unless there has been extraordinary notability for that one particular chapter. That is not the case here; coverage appears routine and local. (Mister#2123Five6 claimed to have found lots of "non-local" coverage, yet every article listed is from Florida.) The activities of my Kiwanis club get a lot of local press; shall I create an article about it? and every other Kiwanis club in the country? --MelanieN (talk) 17:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
BTW this is not just my opinion; this is policy. Quoting from WP:GROUP, "Aim for one good article, not multiple permanent stubs: Individual chapters, divisions, departments, and other sub-units of notable organizations are only rarely notable enough to warrant a separate article. Information on chapters and affiliates should normally be merged into the article about the parent organization." --MelanieN (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. WP:CORP is fairly clear - as a local chapter, it has little but local interest coverage (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:29, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Illinois Junior Classical League (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable state chapter of the NJCL. There are no external references and it does not pass WP:CLUB. Coverage is only local in scope and the limited sourced encyclopedic information is better presented in a sub-list of the main article, per WP:CLUB. Reywas92 23:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete in the absence of anyone working to demonstrate notability. I'm glad these were nominated separately, since some have been developed quite well, while others follow a definite pattern that plugs in variables into an article that ends with the words "....state chapter of the National Junior Classical League (NJCL), an organization dedicated to the study of Classics, namely Latin and Greek. Formed in 1936 and sponsored by the American Classical League (ACL), NJCL is the largest classical organization in the world, encompassing over 50,000 junior and senior high school students." Leave it a red link until someone cares to add to it. Mandsford 16:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Changing my vote to Keep, given the reason that it has almost no content . 'nuff said. Mandsford 16:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
    • I'd hardly call that content. A non-outside-sourced unencyclopedic list of schools in the state with participating Latin programs and non-notable student officers of the past three years do not make an article. Reywas92 18:25, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete In this case, the removal of content was harmless and even beneficial, because the content was exactly the sort of material that an article on an association should not have: a list of local chapters, and of all the officers. I can conceive of expanding the encyclopedia so we do include state chapters of organizations, but that we do not generally include them is a well-settled rule, and changing it would need a thorough general discussion. DGG ( talk ) 03:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
    • In the absence of easily accessible sources, I might agree. But that isn't the case here (see my vote below). Just because a guideline is "generally" agreed upon does not equate to it being a requirement. Please provide a link for this "well settled rule." Establishing notability for specific types of organizations is a work in progress. MisterE2123Five6 (talk) 23:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Multiple non-primary non-local reliable sources demonstrating notability can easily be found using the news search button at the top of this AFD discussion. I have included a few (finding these took less than 2 minutes):
Example 1 - Chicago Tribune staff writer
Example 2 - Chicago Tribune staff writer
Example 3 - Chicago Tribune staff writer
Additionally, the user who nominated this article for deletion contends that a single article for the National organization's state chapters would be more appropriate than individual articles for each (major part of his/her argument for deleting this page). The National Junior Classical League has 51 state-level chapters in the U.S. and Canada. Even with limited content devoted to each of these 51 chapters, a single article would likely reach beyond an acceptable article size. WP:SIZE
I also wish to highlight the nominating user's previous actions regarding this individual state chapter pages v. a single group state chapter page, namely redirecting each of the ten or so existing state chapter pages to the group state chapter page he/she created, all w/o any discussion. MisterE2123Five6 (talk) 23:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC) NOTE: User:MisterE2123Five6 appears to have made few or no contributions outside of this topic; it is hard to tell since he/she has posted under multiple usernames.
Even with some pay-per-view articles, there is nothing preventing the list as described at WP:CLUB. Please do not make stuff up hypothesizing about the length of a convenient merged list. Although there are 51 state chapters, only a fraction of them even attend nationals, have conventions, or even have a web site. The length of the list is perfectly acceptable so let's wait until it actually does reach excessive length to split it. BTW, previous actions may have been hasty but should bear absolutely no effect on the public discussion now. Reywas92 23:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep See my comments here for my rationale. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 19:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. Local human interest stories do not cut it, and this has been confirmed as the consensus yet again at WP:CORP. Also, what encylopedic information is provided in the article? All it says is "the IJCL is the IL chapter of the NJCL" and "Tinley Park Convention Center". Prior to that, the article had lists of names of non-notable people in it. WP:Knowledge (XXG) is not a directory, and articles on local/state chapters lack consensus. Abductive (reasoning) 09:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete As I said above, individual chapters of a national organization do not get their own article unless there has been extraordinary notability for that one particular chapter. That is not the case here; coverage in the article is non-existent, and coverage cited here appears routine and local. --MelanieN (talk) 17:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
BTW this is not just my opinion; this is policy. Quoting from WP:GROUP, "Aim for one good article, not multiple permanent stubs: Individual chapters, divisions, departments, and other sub-units of notable organizations are only rarely notable enough to warrant a separate article. Information on chapters and affiliates should normally be merged into the article about the parent organization." --MelanieN (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Alfonso Black-Warner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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A minor character appearing in a single film, no references or anything at all to suggest the entire content isn't a made up fanfic Jac16888 22:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:03, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Melvin Leroy Merritt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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PROD removed by a sockpuppet. No reliable sources given or found to establish notability of an individual; no strong indications of notability from the text aside from being a memorial for the individual.

There's no doubt Merritt exists; there is a lack of evidence that he qualifies under WP:BIO or other notability criteria. tedder (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Consensus is that the subject is not reliably verifiable, and thus lacks sufficient notability. Regards, Arbitrarily0  17:33, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Bullshido (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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The nominator of Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido (2nd nomination) is correct when s/he said that the references in the article are not nontrivial, independent reliable sources that specifically discuss Bullshido.

Please see Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (4th nomination) and Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/McDojo (2nd nomination)‎ for concurrent nominations about related topics that have the same issues.

I have analyzed and listed the sources in the article as of this revision:

Analysis of the sources in the article

1. http://www.international-atemijujitsu.co.uk/bullshido.html – a personal website from International Atemi Jujitsu, a martial arts club (according to its disclaimer) does not establish notability. On the same page as a brief description of Bullshido, the author of this unreliable notes, "I have a seminar coming up next week, £20 to attend. I'd like as many students as possible to be there to support the event, if you can't make it due to other commitments I'll understand. Of course those that do attend will be on the priority list for the next grading, those that don't will go to the back of the queue. Nuff said." This is not a reliable website.
2. 2-part article titled "Are you a Bullshido" from Martial Arts Professional magazine, entitled "Are You a "Bullshido?" Or, Do You Run a "McDojo?" by Stephen Oliver. Oliver, an 8th degree black belt and the CEO of National Association of Professional Martial Artists (according to this website) seems to be a reliable source. However, I cannot see how a source from an experienced martial arts teacher asking owners of martial arts schools if they are running fraudulent schools can be used to justify an article on Knowledge (XXG).
3. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim/browse_thread/thread/883564e27c8ae0ce/e8ea4cfdf68e52ce?lnk=st&q=bullshido&rnum=12&hl=en#e8ea4cfdf68e52ce – this forum thread does not establish notability because it is an unreliable source.
4. http://www.agkk.com.au/standard/Club%20Membership.htm – dead link to Australian Goju Kai Karate Club. This website of a karate school or association of karate schools is not a reliable source.
5. http://www.theaikidocenter.com/etiquette.html – this page does not mention Bullshido.
6. http://www.hwarangdo.com/rules.htm#1i – this website does not mention Bullshido.
7. http://www.hwarangdo.com/rules.htm#2a – this page does not mention Bullshido.
8. http://www.straightblastgym.com/newbook.htm – this page does not mention Bullshido.
9. http://www.scientificwrestling.com/public/93.cfm?sd=2 – this is a dead link.
10. http://www.randi.org/jr/200509/090905these.html#2 – this page does not mention Bullshido.
11. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/29/magazine/wushu-meditation-in-motion.html?pagewanted=all – this page does not mention Bullshido.
12. http://ashidakim.com/pdf/sotn.pdf – this page is a dead link.

I have searched Google News Archive for sources about Bullshido but have found mostly passing mentions to the website Bullshido.net. A Google Books search returns eight results, none of which establish notability. These results are either unrelated content to, martial arts or content related to martial arts but not to the content of this article which is about "fraudulent, deceptive, or inept martial arts teaching" (the passing mention here is: "The ancient Japanese art of Bullshido").

Participants in the previous AfD suggested that this article be merged to Bullshido.net. I disagree with this solution because Bullshido.net is not a notable topic, so I have nominated it for deletion at Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (4th nomination).

This article should be deleted for failing a number of core Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines, namely Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability, Knowledge (XXG):No original research, Knowledge (XXG):Knowledge (XXG) is not a dictionary#Neologisms, and Knowledge (XXG):Notability. Cunard (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

comment Just read point two n the analyses again and the is EXACTLY my point, "However, I cannot see how a source from an experienced martial arts teacher asking owners of martial arts schools if they are running fraudulent schools can be used to justify an article on Knowledge (XXG)." Independent article by respected person discussing the topic is is not good enough for wp source HOW! What the hell is good enough their is not a Lancet for MA, Please explain why this in not a legitimate source? --Nate/c 10:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
That's just like how in real life, no one really believes that they are the villain. Ask the fraudsters if they're doing shady dealings, and of course they're going to say they're not. Only on television do the bad guys say, "Hey, I'm the bad guy!" That's just like how Scientology will never admit that it's a cult. So you have to look at where the information is coming from. No one will self-report that they're ripping people off. SchuminWeb (Talk) 17:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
and your point is what? --Nate/c 13:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
My point is that no one in their right mind will explicitly say on record that they are are committing fraud (even if they are), so the source should be taken with a grain of salt. SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
And why does this devalue the source in this context? If the line between profit and profiteering is blurry why does it matter that this guys opinion disagrees with the judgement that has been made by Cunard, what standard is he using? Or is this simply an attempt to discredit an otherwise viable source? When sources are hard work to find someone spending time tying to pick at technicalities seems very like WP:wikilawyering to prove a point. --Nate/c 15:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
This is hardly a technicality. The source is fundamentally flawed. The point is that one is not going to get useful information when one asks people to self-identify as fraudsters. SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:55, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Also, this is a WP:NEO nomination. It is about a term in language, To support an article about a particular term or concept we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term or concept, not books and papers that use the term. An entry on Language Log would be more appropriate for example.--Savonneux (talk) 21:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • As the article disscus the use of term, and so defines it by doing so, why is not usable in this context? You can say the guy is a hipocrate but that dosen't change what he has written about the term. --Nate/c 13:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete; this article doesn't come close to meeting basic Knowledge (XXG) standards, and never will. As shown by Cunard's analysis, this is not a widely used term and has not received non-trivial coverage in reliable third-party sources. Thus it fails WP:V as well as WP:NEO and other guidelines and policies. *** Crotalus *** 17:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
    • Just for the hell of rhetoric please prove the statement "and never will" --Nate/c 13:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
      • Crotalus horridus has never said "it never will". WP:NOTCRYSTAL is the applicable policy here. Cunard (talk) 16:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
        • Fixed to "and never will"As I said it was a Rhetorical response, he is making an unverifiable assertion, see WP:NODEADLINE --Nate/c 17:14, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
          • Given the sources (or lack thereof) that currently exist, it can never meet Knowledge (XXG) standards. Is it possible that some day a reliable source might be published that actually discusses the use of the term? Sure, and if that happens you are free to have the deletion decision revisited. But we can't keep an article on the hope that even though there are not adequate sources now, there may be someday. See WP:CRYSTAL as noted above. *** Crotalus *** 20:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep; How many in the delete camp actually know of the countless contributions bullshido.net has made to debunking martial arts frauds, scams, con artists, and literally pioneering a line of demarcation between applicable forms of realistic self defense and run of the mill scam houses? The terms "Bullshido" and "McDojo" have basically been pioneered by this site and are as common as the word "Google" in the martial arts community. Bullshido is used as a constant point of reference by a worldwide audience whenever a martial arts instructor's, school or academy's credibility are questioned. I'm certain there are many pages that merit deletion on Knowledge (XXG) but a site that basically helped reshape an entire culture is probably not one of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickc181 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC) — Nickc181 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
No reliable sources to verify that? Can't help you. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was below:

Whenever an article has been through three prior AFD's, a fourth will always be a contentious matter without a clean, obvious consensus, and that has held true here. The fundamental issue is does Bullshido have enough reliable, independent sources to meet the notability and verifiability standards- these do not work in isolation- just as we cannot have articles about non-notable subjects, neither can we have content that cannot be sourced.

We have 37 !votes here, so an analysis of each and every one is impractical. The nomination, however, is a very strong argument; taking a critical eye to every source that was present at the time of nomination, and explaining why it does not constitute the standard of significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. Mazca's point is well taken, "We cannot write an article on a topic that hasn't seen substantial coverage in reliable sources without unavoidably performing blatant original research." User:Cy Q. Faunce's vote is that the addition of one source is enough- even if we take the source added as reliable, it does not answer the other flaws raised with this article. Further, other stuff exists is not a reason to keep content if it is not up to standards.

Votes like user:jæs's and User:JJL's, though on oppesite sides, boil down to the same level of influence in my reasoning- one belives the sources are adequate, one does not. The outcome fo the AfD turns on who has the stronger arguements, not who happens to garner the most !votes. The Real Fighter source is important, but arguments about it's neutrality are well-taken. Arguments that it is centrally about Khristian Geraci and only mentions Bullshido in relation to that are also taken. To User:Nate1481's vote; that something is hard to source does not exempt it from the requirements that it be verifyable. User:Onesti's argument is that a 4th nomination is excessive, and other stuff exists; so disregarded. Articles have been deleted after a dozen nominations before; Knowledge (XXG) does not work by stare decisis, and even if it did, the last two discussions closed as "no consensus", which invites more discussion at a later date.

Examiner.com doesn't meet any of the criteria for a reliable source, thereby disregarded. Both User:Dwanyewest and User:Craftyminion cast !votes that the article should be deleted unless reliable sources can be found; these votes can be taken as an opinion that the sources presented until then do not qualify. User:Law boi99 makes another "other stuff exists" argument, this time presenting another article that has weaker sourcing than Bullshido- this is a good argument for nominating the other article, not for keeping this one. Orange Mike is correct that the history of "COI edits, canvassing, s.p.a. involvement, etc.,"- whether true or not is irrelevant to this discussion.

The midpoint of this debate sees a lot of comments about other editors- AFD's are about the article under discussion- not whether the nominator or the other !voters have some agenda towards either deleting or keeping a piece of content. To User:Jmcw37- articles are not kept based on the belief that reliable sources will develop in the future- they must exist now; nor it "it's useful" a particularly convincing argument for disregarding that. Arguing that the notability guidelines are flawed is, similarly unconvincing- mountains of ink have been spilled in places like WT:N to develop these guidelines, and while they have occasional exceptions, they in general work well.

Rankings at big-boards are also not evidence of notability, and a high ranking there does not provide sufficient justification for keeping this article. The Stanford paper, written by a graduate student, is the most reliable source presented, in my mind, and even it has not been conclusively established to have been peer reviewed. There are other arguments presented- I have read and analysed them all, but my closing statement is already 6 paragraphs long- longer than most deletion discussions here.

This is a close call, and quite frankly I expect any close here to land at deletion review; but ultimately I read the consensus here is that the sources provided do not meet the standards of inclusion, so I am closing this discussion as a consensus to delete the article. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 03:36, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Bullshido.net (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Over seven months have passed since the closure of the previous AfD as no consensus. Because no sources have surfaced in that period of time, I have renominated Bullshido.net for deletion. I have asked the closing admins of both the previous AfD and the DRV for their opinion about renomination, and neither oppose it.

Please see Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido (3rd nomination) and Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/McDojo (2nd nomination)‎ for concurrent nominations about related topics that have the same issues.

The nominator of Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination) is correct when s/he said that the references in the article are not nontrivial, independent reliable sources that specifically discuss Bullshido.net. I have analyzed and listed the sources in the article as of this revision:

Analysis of the sources in the article

1. This article from mat.uscombatsports.com mentions Bullshido.net in passing. The sole sentence in the article that pertains to Bullshido.net is: "Locked in the Cage on Saturday will be lawyer and active member of combat sports consumer advocacy group Bullshido.net Sam Browning, as well as returning friend of the show Matt “The Fight Nerd” Kaplowitz." Passing mentions do not establish notability; see also #2.
2. This article from Rocky Mountain News also mentions Bullshido.net in passing. The only time this website is referenced in this article is: "This week, Browning, 38, posted on the Web site Bullshido.net an exhaustive dissection of Bannon's published claims, which he has investigated over the past two years. He dismisses Bannon's story as tortured fiction." This does gives no context about Bullshido.net, save that it is a website and a man named Browning has posted on it to debunk another man's story.
3. http://www.themartialist.com/bullshidofaq.htm is written by Phil Elmore, a man who has been attacked by Bullshido; Elmore writes "The Bullshido.com FAQ incorrectly describes Pax Baculum (and, I suppose, The Martialist and me) as somehow other than "up front about the evidence that exists today."" This is not an neutral article about Bullshido.net. Having read through the article, I have concluded that it is a attack on Bullshido.net. Furthermore and most importantly though, it has not been given the editorial oversight and fact-checking that reliable sources (such as newspapers, magazines, and journals) are given.
4. http://web.petabox.bibalex.org/web/20060504091905/http://www.ashidakim.com/shitlist.html is the same as the fourth source. It was written by someone who has been attacked by Bullshido.net. It is a personal website by an individual called Ashida Kim (see Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Ashida Kim (7th nomination)) has also not been given the editorial oversight and fact-checking that reliable sources (such as newspapers, magazines, and journals) are given.
5. This article from Rocky Mountain News does not even mention Bullshido.net.
6. http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=28 – Bullshido.net is not a neutral, secondary reliable source for itself.
7. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/943mld/charlotte/14897513.htm – dead link to a passing mention; this article discusses the same topic as #2.
8. This article from Interpol.com does not even mention Bullshido.net.
I have done much research about this website and have been unable to find any sufficient reliable sources about it. My searches included trawling through several pages of Google results, Google News Archive, Google Books, Google Scholar, and Yahoo!. If this site were truly notable as the above "keep" voters suggest, there should be sufficient sources about it. However, I have been unable to find any.

I am opposed to the merge to Bullshido suggested in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination) by the wub (talk · contribs). There are absolutely no reliable sources that discuss Bullshido.net. Even the passing mentions from reliable sources (see #1 and 2) do not provide enough context to justify a stub. Bullshido has also been nominated for deletion at Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido (3rd nomination).

I am also opposed to a redirect to David "Race" Bannon. A member of Bullshido.net may have posted information about Bannon, but that does not guarantee that the website should be mentioned in Bannon's article. Having searched through results (using the search term "Banno bullshido.net"), I have been unable to locate any reliable sources that indicate that Bullshido.net played major role in debunking Bannon's claims. The best source about Bullshido.net and Banno that I could find was this article from Rocky Mountain News. The article states: "This week, Browning, 38, posted on the Web site Bullshido.net an exhaustive dissection of Bannon's published claims, which he has investigated over the past two years." This passing mention that provides little context does not justify a redirect or a merge.

The "keep" votes in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Bullshido.net (2nd nomination) stated that "Bullshido is quite a notable organization within the martial arts community" and "one of the most notable martial arts web sites", but I have been unable to uncover anything to substantiate their claims.

This article should be deleted for failing a number of core Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines, namely Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability, Knowledge (XXG):No original research, and Knowledge (XXG):Notability. Cunard (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Delete. At the risk of repeating myself, I am with Cunard again on this. No verifiable reliable meaningful references, no notability. How this keeps squeaking through is a mystery to me. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment This newspaper archive has 6 unique articles (related to debunking various claims). I think calling WP:OR might be a little overboard, there are a lot of uncited claims but the major ones hold up. Same thing can be said about most of the website articles on here (4chan, something awful, encyclopedia dramatica ). The only websites that tend to have regular press coverage are websites about the internet. Various niches have recognized major websites that get little coverage outside their respective communities. There is no good reliable guide to internet culture, but it's there. There are many references to it being in the top 4 martial arts websites based on traffic unfortunately I lost link in edit conflict.--Savonneux (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Here you go. It's second in the Martial Arts, with the first being a Mixed Martial Arts-specific site, making it the largest General site. --Phrost (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete, there's bits of evidence suggesting possible notability as Savonneux has pointed to - but there just isn't enough substantial coverage either to demonstrate notability, or actually write an appreciable article that's verifiable. We cannot write an article on a topic that hasn't seen substantial coverage in reliable sources without unavoidably performing blatant original research. ~ mazca 23:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
    Upon review of further sources added, I'm still not seeing any significant reliable-source coverage that actually talks about Bullshido.net rather than just mentioning it in passing. ~ mazca 22:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Real Fighter and the TV feature from JOJ in Slovakia feature Bullshido.net centrally. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2010 (UTC) — Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Also, WP:WEB does not use the word "substantial". Non-triviality is the criterion. Please reacquaint yourself with policy details and reconsider your vote. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • A recording where Bullshido.net was mentioned in a discussion about Sam Browning does not establish notability.

    The reference you added is insufficient because it is not a third-party reliable source. The bottom of the page says, "Content (c) Bullshido. By submitting information you grant a license to Bullshido and/or Creative Combat to reproduce your statement or work." The second reference you added cannot be verified. Cunard (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Bullshido was the central topic of a major segment of the show, as you would know if you had listened to it. Also, Sam Browning was not mentioned; he himself was a guest on the show.

    The Geraci article was not intended as an external reference, but rather to establish a link between the Real Fighter article and Bullshido's work. Your objection is invalid.

    As for the verifiability of the second reference, a trip to Barnes and Noble or an inquiry with the publisher would do wonders in that direction. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • My argument in a nutshell:
  • According to Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability, sources should be "reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". The Stanford University Graduate School of Journalism article surely qualifies, especially since "cademic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources where available". The TV spot and the Real Fighter article are also mainstream sources. All are independent of Bullshido.net. Verifiability is satisfied.

    Note also that "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources". If you have a hard time getting a copy of Real Fighter, you should at least suspend judgment until you either acquire a copy or contact the publisher for details. If you argue that there is no time to do that, that is an argument for no consensus until the information can be processed, not for deletion. A rush to judgment serves no legitimate purpose.

  • To satisfy Knowledge (XXG):No_original_research, there are multiple citations. Even if a section lacks citations, that is an argument for improving the section or deleting only that section, not for throwing out the article.
  • As for Knowledge (XXG):Notability, the Real Fighter article, the TV spot on Channel JOJ, and the Stanford article all meet the criteria: coverage is significant -- indeed, focused on Bullshido.net; possess editorial integrity -- all have editorial oversight, one by a PhD in journalism; all are secondary sources; all are independent of the subject.
Anyone who votes to delete without addressing this argument directly is either underinformed or had already made up their mind in advance, IMO,. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment I can't find "real fighter magazine", anywhere. Not on Amazon (which has /most/ magazines), not on B&N, and most importantly not on Newsbank/JSTOR/Gale etc. Library doesnt have it. Cant find out who publishes it... There are 3000 year old books with better availability.

    I really did try to find something before I posted my earlier comment (I've never heard of this place before) and it just falls a little bit shy of notability. Even if it was keep massive sections of the article would have to be excised because there isnt much secondary information available.--Savonneux (talk) 01:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Without a copy of the article, it is difficult to comment about whether the coverage of Bullshido.net is nontrivial and neutral. However, I have done some research about the article and have concluded that it is not a neutral reliable source.

    This thread from bullshido.net includes a snippet of the text, including "the amateur investigators at the debunking Bullshido.com ... sunk their skeptical teeth into his body of work like lions working a gazelle". The tone of the article while discussing a living person is not neutral.

    The OP of the thread further writes, "Thanks to Stephen Koepfer, who wrote the original Geraci article on Bullshido and gave Feinman valuable assistance in writing his article for Real Fighter." The original article is here and is a wiki page. I have serious doubts about Real Fighter being a neutral, third-party reliable source on which the Knowledge (XXG) article must rely. Cunard (talk) 01:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Colourful metaphors wording make an article non-neutral now? Also just becase the autor agrees with one of the subjects dose not invalidate the source, it just means that you need to not it when using the source. --Nate/c 10:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, WP:V, WP:N, WP:RS, and WP:NOR.   — Jeff G. ツ 01:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete impartial analysis of the sources does not sustain any reason to keep. I looked at this in depth for DRV several months ago, I easily spent an hour or more reading the sources trying to figure out how they related to this website and WP inclusion guides. We can go without an article here. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
  • Comment Anyone passing judgment on the credibility and verifiability of the sources in the article should read its current version before drawing conclusions; two mentions in other media have been added, including an article in a nationally distributed magazine and an article from Stanford University's Graduate Program in Journalism. Additionally, those who have voted to delete should at least review those sources and reconsider their votes. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • And now there's a TV feature and an NBC Washington article in the mix. This is more real press coverage than most forums get, including those with Knowledge (XXG) entries. Those who argue that there are no notable media mentions must reconsider their votes at this time, and if they present no convincing argument for disregarding all of these mentions but do not change their vote, that would be telling, wouldn't it. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 17:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • The NBC Washington article makes no mention of Bullshido.net. It says a lot about the video but nothing about the website only linking to it. I don't really consider that could be described as "significant coverage", to quote from WP:NOTE, which "means that sources address the subject directly in detail". The subject of this article is clearly the website Bullshido.net but the NBC article doesn't in my view "address the subject directly in detail". Adambro (talk) 17:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Any comment on the TV feature, the Stanford University article, and the Real Fighter article? The NBC Washington citation is just one part of the pattern. It's not huge, but it adds a bit to the evidence for notability, which at this point is so significant that anyone arguing against it should state their reasons. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • You seem quite keen to suggest that those who support this deletion nomination are not properly considering this issue. Whether that is true or not, and I've made it clear that I had yet to consider some of the new sources, it is unlikely to endear people to your cause, that you are so quick to suggest a hidden agenda or lack of proper consideration. I have now looked at the Stanford article and it does provide significant coverage of the subject. However, it isn't clear in what context it was written. I think it has been suggested that it will have been peer reviewed but how do we know that, for example? The TV feature also presents problems, not only is it not in a language I don't understand, but I also can't get a very good impression of the nature of the TV channel or the programme. That makes it hard for me to assess the TV feature as a source. As for the Real Fighter article, mthai66 has linked to the relevant sections and a few brief mentions is all Bullshido seems to get. Even without trying to assess Real Fighter magazine as a source, what we seem to have is brief mentions here and there in good, reliable sources, accompanied by more extensive coverage in more questionable sources. I'm still not overwhelming convinced that this subject has "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" as per the WP:GNG. Adambro (talk) 08:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources"; your reluctance to look into the provenance of the Treanor article and your issues with the Slovakian TV spot are already accounted for in policy, and are considered not to be blocking objections. At the very least you need more time to deal. As for the Real Fighter article, the mention of Bullshido is at the climax of the action, and it was instrumental in exposing the details of this story.

    This article is better-sourced than almost anything else in its class, and any rush to judgment suggests that the real issue does not lie in the ostensible objections being offered. Deal with whatever this isn't about and make your case. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 08:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Additionally, it is reasonable to ask people if they have read a recent version of the article, as it has seen large improvements in the last three days. Anyone citing Cunard's nom, which was written before this happened, should at least consider that their facts are not current. I'm asking for this article to be judged on its actual current merits. What reasonable person would be opposed to that? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 02:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Alternatively, we could consider this a case where a nomination for deletion provided concerned individuals with a speedy kick in the pants and resulted in large improvements to the article's citations. Of course, such an argument must rest upon these improvements affecting the votes. Cy Q. Faunce (talk)
Why? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 09:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
If you're going to question Stephen Koepfer after he gave a detailed rationale, you had better be ready to answer some questions yourself. Why? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Article is reasonably detailed but some of the info is hard secondary source (it uses vbulletin where on earth could you get a 2ndary of that?) the OR/POV could be removed without butchering all useful info from the article, but people seem unwilling to compromise, or discuss it. --Nate/c 10:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
On another note the action shortly after the last AfD of removing all content and redirecting to an article that doesn't mention the site in the text delete screams "keep nomination till it gets deleted". Some sort of constructive criticism on what needed work and sources that might be acceptable to the proposers as sufficient would have been welcomed but the attitude drains any enthusiasm to improve an article they won't let stay but just keep truncating and nominating. I realise this seems jaded but having been on the other side trying to engage with editors and say "you need to do x, y & z to fix it" generally has better results than "it sucks I'll nominate it, oh it was kept lets ty again, Grr they out argued me I'll ignore it for 6 months then nominate it again". /rant This is an exaggerated characterisation, but does some up the feelings of myself and some editors involved. --Nate/c 10:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete The sources are too weak for an actual article. Non-verifiable works, passing mention in marginally notable publications, and a graduate student's project just don't meet the requirements for notability or verifiability. Personally speaking, after having run into a number of these people at the now-deleted Jesus Taught Me article (formerly an even worse BLP nightmare called Bobby Joe Blythe), these people are prone to self-promotion and creating BLP-violating articles. We do not need to encourage them. Sχeptomaniac 15:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • sorry but with "these people" are you referring to me, and every other editor who expressed a "keep" opinion on mass? Either way it seams to be an assumption of bad faith on th motives of all. --Nate/c 13:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Why are you assuming I'm referring to such a broad group when I've already clarified exactly what behavior I was referring to below a day before? Let me repeat and condense: I'm talking about Bullshido members coming here solely to vote 'keep' on their projects (I see two more just showed up ), create BLP-violating articles, and insert links to their site against policy. Sχeptomaniac 14:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • This argument rests on an ad hominem attack against those who disagree with you. Also, an article produced under the supervision of a professor of journalism at Stanford, and held to strict journalistic standards, is not just some random grad student's project. As for "marginally notable publications", can you support that characterization with actual citations? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 16:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
You are misusing the term ad hominem. My comments were regarding my experience of members' behavior here on WP, which is relevant because I believe it's why the article exists at all, and why it manages to keep squeaking by AfD. I have had to argue circularly against an editor/Bullshido member trying to insert a BLP-violating link to that site in a now-deleted article. Their responses were continually WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT until an RFC brought in outside editors who all agreed it was not appropriate (I would link to it but the page is gone). So, personally speaking, I am not impressed with the tendency for Bullshido members to self-promote their site while simultaneously ignoring BLP and sourcing policy, nor the tendency for editors to suddenly appear and vote "keep" on Bullshido projects
Nevertheless, my argument does not "rest" on the above. The article is extremely short on reliable sources, as I said from the outset. Passing mention in regional newspapers (Rocky Mountain News and Charlotte Observer) and a specialty news site of questionable reliability (uscombatsports.com) do not meet notability nor sourcing requirements. The student project is the closest thing, but it's still a student project, and does not establish notability. It might be barely passable as a source if it was already determined to be notable, but right now it's the one and only source that isn't self-published or only mentions Bullshido in passing, and it's, at best, equivalent to a local news article, and not national-level news. Sχeptomaniac 20:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Your list of sources does not include any of the recent edits to the article, and suggests that you are underinformed. Please review the recent changes and explain why they do not meet criteria. As for misusing "ad hominem", I don't agree, but perhaps there is another term for the fallacy whereby one implements policies not because they make sense, but to punish some class of people whose feelings would be hurt by them. Bad policy either way. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
As usual, the Real Fighter magazine article does not appear to be about Bullshido.com, based on the article summary from their website. Unless someone has access to the magazine and can give quotes, this appears to invalidate the article as an indicator of notability:
The Con Artist
BY SACHA FEINMAN
With UFC fights a PPV juggernaut, and MMA studios and dojos proliferating, everyone wants to get in on the act. And sometimes it is an act. Meet the new wave of mixed martial BS artist, as epitomized by the tall tales of one Khristian Geraci, whose peculiar relationship to reality creates quite a mess.
I have posted scans of the Real Fighter article on this page; they contain the relevant text. They also contain the following "That (posting) ruined my gym," sighs Geraci. "It was all over after that. The Bullshido page was, for the most part, accurate. The mistakes were mine; I let people believe things that weren't true. What I realize now is that actions and output would have been more than enough." which establishes, I think, the centrality of Bullshido.nets work in this case. Attempting to characterize the site's contribution as "trivial" when the author himself acknowledges his piece's debt to the original investigative article is disingenuous to say the least. Attempting to *simultaneously* cast the article as invalid for drawing significantly on the work of a Bullshido staffer again stretches "good faith" to the limit. The reality is much simpler: an investigative article was produced by Bullshido investigator Steve Koepfer, which became the primary source for Mr Feinman's piece in Real Fighter. Mr Feinman essentially fact checked the entire piece, and reinterviewed all of the principals personally. The information in the piece was, essentially, vetted twice: once by Bullshido.net, and once by Real Fighter Magazine. Attempting to spin this piece as biased if dependent on Bullshido.net's work, or "trivial mention" of the site for being independent of it demonstrates, I think, the mentality of some calling for the deletion. 24.34.109.254 (talk) 14:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Unlike most of the sources claimed, it actually has some information that could potentially be used in an article, but it still doesn't do anything to establish notability per guidelines, because it's about the instructor, not Bullshido. Your unsubstantiated claim that Bullshido supposedly was the basis for the article doesn't say much, as it's not backed up by sources. I think the fact that "Delete" votes come from editors with a variety of editing interests, while "Keep" votes are dominated by accounts created specifically for that purpose, says more. Sχeptomaniac 17:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
It isn't about the instructor, it's about what Bullshido did to him. That's a big difference. He's being used as an example of an outed fraud. And I am not a WP:SPA...nor a fan of Bullshido, incidentally. JJL (talk) 01:01, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
As far as the foreign TV show, it's difficult to say what weight to give it. It appears to be a show specializing in weird news, but I don't see anything indicating it's significant news, much less usable as a source. I remain convinced the article should be deleted at this time. Sχeptomaniac 14:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
' to where? I thought WP was an international effort? you may wish to read WP:systemic bias --Nate/c 16:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Oh please, now you're just stretching for an excuse. I just mentioned that it's foreign as an identification. The point is, after quite a bit of searching, I could find nothing to indicate it's a significant show, so it could be a small, possibly regional show. Without something to tell us what it is, that's the best information we have. Either way, without a translation of the show, it doesn't help us as a source, which is what the article is seriously lacking. Sχeptomaniac 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
No, I'm asking you not to try and dissmis a source on the grounds it's "Foreign". The something the site did got into a TV News piece, that sounds like a good way towards significant coverage. --Nate/c 08:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
As to not being about Bullshido, you've read a summary, I haven't got acces to ther article either but could you explain how you can know it doesn't mention (possibly at length) to the Bullshido investigation here? It's not provable either way unless we can sd,e the full article so give the person who added it the benefit of the doubt and stop tying to lazily discredit sources that might undermine your view.--Nate/c 16:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Given the history of Bullshido members using articles with one word mentions or less, I think there's good reason to doubt the article's validity as an indicator of notability. In a recent example, a local news article linked to their site as a place to view a video. It does not name Bullshido or make any reference to it, yet they tried to use the article as a source . The evidence points to the article not being about Bullshido, and the history of exaggerated sources gives good reason to question it as indicating notability. Sχeptomaniac 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Again, good policy is not about punishing some class of people or violating WP:AGF. It's about improving Knowledge (XXG). If you are actually interested in evaluating this question, instead of using it as an excuse to rush to judgment, I can probably quote a translation. However, you could then assert that I am impossibly biased and therefore mistranslating...ugh. Look, either propose a way to resolve this impasse or change your vote to reflect your lack of information. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • I reviewed the article just now and I still do not see adequate sourcing. It's not enough to say that someone, somewhere, may have published something that qualifies as a reliable source; the article must actually reflect such sources. It's been years, and the basic criterion of verifiability is still not adequately met. *** Crotalus *** 18:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • "May have"? Almost all of these cites link you to the places where the items were published. The single exception is Real Fighter magazine, which does not place its content online. What do you suggest we do? Pretend this magazine doesn't exist? Even if it didn't, the TV spot and the Stanford article more than meet the criteria. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Which is why I went back and made sure my comments were signed, after they originally only showed up with my IP address. Which I could have easily avoided doing since I don't believe I've ever contributed to Knowledge (XXG) through this connection. Now if only some of the other people here were so forthcoming with their own agendas (such as being noted for deleting as many articles as possible, Cunard). --Phrost (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I will say for Cunard, he has notified peopel event if his source review is subjective, on a previous occasion and editor complained that it was listed on the meartial arts related deltions becase it attracted ther wrong type of attention (i.e. "keep" options)
  • Keep This seems a bit rediculous, at the 4th attempt to get rid of this page. There are refences, with new ones added recently. The argument that are not good enough unfortunately could be applied to a number of Wiki articles about fora. Are you going to apply the same delete criteria to them? Onesti (talk) 18:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
    The answer to that question is yes. Please nominate such articles for deletion. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a poor reason for keeping anything. Adambro (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
    True but when this is a better red than many four attempts seems like a crusade not an attempt to improve things. --Nate/c 14:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment even more sources references to Bullshido.net, all from from the New York Examiner's MMA column. But feel free to dismiss these, since they conflict with your agenda Cunard.

www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m8d10-New-York-Bullshido-Throwdown

www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m12d23-New-York-Holiday-Throwdown-slideshow-and-review

www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m7d11-Invitation-to-New-York-Throwdown

www.examiner.com/x-14354-NY-MMA-Examiner~y2009m7d27-MMA-101-what-do-MMA-terms-mean-Part-2 --Phrost (talk) 18:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

  • I'd echo the above comments. My understanding is that examiner.com contains much user-generated content and isn't subject to adequate editorial controls therefore is widely considered on Knowledge (XXG) not to be a reliable source. Hence why it is blacklisted. Adambro (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Wasn't aware that Examiner.com was "blacklisted", consider those retracted. Regardless, more than sufficient references now exist. If Cunard's agenda is truly to improve the article as opposed to getting it deleted (the latter of which seems to be the case based on his emphatic pursuit of such), then there really isn't much more to discuss here, and the article should stay. --Phrost (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Examiner.com is not a RS. Editorial oversight is virtually non-existant. I absolutely wouldn't consider them a RS and would argue against using them as a source. I say that as someone who gets a check from them every month. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Implying that Cunard has some kind of hidden agenda only highlights the fact that you have a very obvious one. Sχeptomaniac 20:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I assumed that my agenda didn't need any clarification; it's obvious that I believe the result of the voting should be Keep. I don't think Cunard's agenda is hidden; it's simple to identify on his talk page. I'd just like him to state it for the record, especially now that the article has more than sufficient references, including coverage of the website by a European TV station's news program. --Phrost (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The article has ample sourcing outside of Examiner.com. This discussion is inflating a minor issue and failing to address larger concerns. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
As with others who have taken this stance, I invite you to explain why Real Fighter, channel JOJ, and an article from the Stanford University Graduate Program in Journalism are not reliable secondary sources. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
As with others who have taken this stance, I invite you to explain why Real Fighter, channel JOJ, and an article from the Stanford University Graduate Program in Journalism are not reliable secondary sources. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Feh. A cut and paste? If you're going to ask the same question over and over, at least individualise it. Some of us like to feel special. Crafty (talk) 03:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Make a novel error and you'll get a novel response. Screw up in the same way everyone else does, you get lumped in. Think of it as reuse if it makes you feel better.

Now, do you plan to address the point? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Have you considered a laxative? Might loosen you up some. Crafty (talk) 12:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
@Crafty- You may wish to read WP:NPA agian, as this kind of comment is not helpful however much you dissagree with someone. --Nate/c 14:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Again? Thank you, no. Reading it once was sufficient. Thin plotline and egregiously dull characters. Crafty (talk) 21:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Have you considered withdrawing your vote until you actually address the relevant issues? Might make you look less like yet another agenda-driven editor with a grudge. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC) — Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
That editors are not swayed by a non-neutral unreliable source, the project of a college student, and a local news report about an event is evident. Most of the content was written by Scb steve (talk · contribs), who states on his userpage that he is "the designated representative for Bullshido.net". The long history of promotion dating back to the article's inception and continuing today with single-purpose accounts and the founder of the website supporting its retention is also evident. That accusations of bad faith and of a hidden agenda, as well as WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments, are being made point strongly to this website's lack of notability. Cunard (talk) 16:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Looking at he history it seems I have around 22% of the edits over double that of any other single user, I assume this means I am a have a single purpose account? If you feel able to question keep comments , questions on Deletes are not unreasonable. Steve's nomination as a representative was aimed at Bullshido, to avoid a rush of over enthusiastic wiki newbies from putting to much POV into the article after initial issues, many of which were fixed on discussion with Steve and others.--Nate/c 17:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
You have not demonstrated that Real Fighter is non-neutral or unreliable. Treanor's article is not "the project of a college student"; it is a product of Stanford's Graduate Program in Journalism, and was produced to journalistic standards under the supervision of a professor of journalism. As for the local news report, that alone is more than sufficient to meet notability.

Rather than mischaracterize existing citations, maybe you could explain what would meet notability criteria, and include examples from previous deletion discussions. As it is, it is impossible to distinguish your actions from those of an impossibly biased person who is pursuing an agenda that has nothing to do with improving Knowledge (XXG). Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Keep Knowledge (XXG) also has an entry for Sherdog. Their entry is supported by mentions in three newspaper articles. In each such article, Sherdog is mentioned because one of it's officers provides a short quote of 1-2 sentences concerning the MMA world. Sherdog is not even the subject of an individual article such as the previously referred to magazine article written by the Stanford University Master's Candidate. I am not arguing for the deletion of the Sherdog entry, I am only pointing out, that unless Knowledge (XXG) decides to generally not have articles on internet bulletin boards, mentions of a particular electronic bulletin board, in the traditional media, are usually going to be in passing. It is my argument that six or so such mentions should provide enough verification of notability to keep the entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Law boi99 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC) — Law boi99 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • That argument would be a lot more convincing if you could show how the current article, which has seen a lot of recent improvement, fails in a way that other articles do not. Application of policy is not a question of twisting the wording to suit a purpose; precedent informs it. You show no indication of having read the recent article or of understanding Knowledge (XXG) policy at a level any deeper than blurting the names of policies you don't appear to understand. Try harder. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 02:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
WP:N and WP:RS are not sliding scale policies, the threshold for inclusion is not adjusted based on the size of the market the subject draws from.--kelapstick (talk) 15:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I see no specific exclusions in WP:N and WP:RS which would prevent the consideration of market size when looking at the number of notable references. The threshold to notability has already been crossed with the above-mentioned magazine, television, and news reports. The fact that the martial arts industry as a whole is not well-represented in notable references would even further suggest that 2 or more notable references is more than enough for notability. Darkening (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC).
  • Delete - fails to muster up the substantial coverage in reliable sources that is required. The long history of COI edits, canvassing, s.p.a. involvement, etc., is sad but irrelevant to the simple continuing failure of this article to meet our standards. Arguments for retention boil down to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and exaggeration of the importance of the few mentions that have been found. As for examiner.com content: the less said, the better. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The word "substantial" somehow failed to make its way into WP:WEB. The standard is non-triviality, not some arbitrary standard for substantiality. Making up policy on the fly is a bad idea. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment On the Source analysis on 1, 2 & 7 Browning was investigating these in part on behalf of bullshido, and with the support of BS forum members. On 3 & 4 the wiordin of the analysis is designed to reflect badly on BS, I agree they are reactions investigations and comments should be viewd as such, but does this mean they should be labelled as "attacks"? 8 & 5 are both valid sources for what they cite and relate to events triggered by Bullshido's actions so have some merit. --Nate/c 17:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Synthesis. There is no reliable source that Bullshido was significant to the investigations mentioned in sources 2, 5, 7, and 8. It's either a passing mention or none at all. Sources 3 and 4 are still not reliable either way, and definitely do not indicate notability, as they are self-published. Sχeptomaniac 17:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete the nominator's analysis of the sources cited in the article shows that the subject does not pass the criteria of significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Given the sheer amount of discussion about this subject's notability, if there actually is any appropriate sourcing it almost certainly would have been found by now and added to the article. Hut 8.5 21:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The discussion is largely about the fact that such sourcing has been added to the article. You might want to read the details. They matter. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Every source currently listed in the article is either a trivial mention, unreliable, a primary source or doesn't even mention the subject. If you want to demonstrate notability you need more than that. Hut 8.5 08:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The TV spot and the article in KFM both rebut your claim. Please refrain from speaking in overly general terms when the evidence against your position is specific and clear. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The sum total of coverage of bullshido.net in the KFM article is this phrase: "After a lengthy, complete investigation conducted by Bullshido.net revealed that none of Bannon's larger then life tales could be independently confirmed..." That's it. A passing mention in an article on something else is not significant coverage. You could plausibly use that article to argue for the notability of David Bannon, but not for the notability of bullshido.net. Now my knowledge of Slovakian TV is non-existent, but a piece in local news doesn't confer notability. Hut 8.5 11:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
And now that we have a KFM article which establishes notability and discusses Bullshido's investigation of Bannon in depth, that...won't change your vote because you aren't interested in the facts. Check. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
That article (link here) is actually about David "Race" Bannon, not bullshido.net, and does not qualify as "significant coverage" of bullshido.net. Also the article was written by Samuel Browning (as stated in the byline under the title), I would not consider that independent.--kelapstick (talk) 23:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The article contains significant mentions of the Bullshido investigation of Bannon; in fact, it is largely a summary of that article. Also, you're shooting your own argument in the foot if you argue that we are not notable because our writers are solicited to produce articles under contract about our activities. Thanks for proving my case. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
The article mentions bullshido once, then it goes on to talk about how to spot people who are faking their credentials. Also the Charlotte Observer article (link here) says that Browning's investigation came out after Bannon had been arrested. And I'm not proving your case, the "I would not consider that independent" is my opinion and interpretation of Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines. kelapstick (talk) 00:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Right, it's a total coincidence that the author of the Bullshido article went on to write an article on exactly this subject at KFM. And talking about spotting fake credentials is talking about what Bullshido does. I don't think you are interpreting Knowledge (XXG) policy in a reasonable spirit. We'll see what the admins say. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)— Cy Q. Faunce (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment In a nutshell, here is the problem: Bullshido.net has a virtual monopoly on the talent pool of martial arts fraud investigators. Virtually evrey experienced person is a member of the site, and virtually every piece written on the subject by a 3rd party uses the site's invstigative journalism as it's primary source, and our people as consultants. I am, for example, a staff scientist for the site. I do digital image analysis, and specialize in the detection of fraudulent credentials. To my knowledge, there is no one else (outside of other Bullshido.net staff) who has more experience with this process than myself. (note: scientific expertise established here: http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/2007/042007/proteomics.shtml I am Phillips) folks voting "delete" see every attempt at establishing "notability" as circular because every person qualified in this field already works for the site. Any references offered will either have contributions from Bullshido.net membership or staff, or be "trivial" in nature in the sense that every single martial arts publication that exists is "trivial" by your definition. Fortunately for the martial arts, its relevance is determined by the public's engagement with the subject, and not by Knowledge (XXG)'s editors.mthai66 (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.109.254 (talk) 01:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. I've held off on my !vote for a while, watching this discussion progress. I believe the site has a purpose, I read it periodically myself. But I'm not convinced that it passes the notability standard. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment As someone who has been reading Knowledge (XXG) for a very long time, I would like to remind everyone of my favorite quote from the creators of this site "If rules make you nervous and depressed, and not desirous of participating in the Wiki, then ignore them and go about your business." www.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules 24.34.109.254 (talk) 05:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • And I'd like to remind you that, while I do believe it's good when people are able to look past the rules, there are still governing principles involved. If you don't like rules, that's fine, but you still need to make a reasoned argument that takes those principles into account. Ignore all rules is not an argument for keeping or deleting the article, as the opposing viewpoint can just as easily say the same thing. Sχeptomaniac 06:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I think the argument has been made quite well already. I am simply pointing out that this conversation, and Sxeptomaniac's stalking of any page with a connection to Bullshido.net is making me nervous and depressed, and not desirous of participating in the Wiki. The notability criterion was not created to suppress contributions dealing with subculture, even when they present problems with mainstream sourcing. At the end of the day, everyone involved at any significant level with the Martial Arts knows what Bullshido.net is, what it does, and what it is for; the site is consistently ranked at #1 or #2 for traffic in category (General Martial Arts), and the investigative output is consistently referenced by sources seeking to cover fraud cases in the Martial Arts. Using the Notability criterion to construct an artificial argument for the site's irrelevance violates the spirit of the rule. I suggest any critic interested take a look at the entry on Ogre_(game), possibly the most enduringly popular and influential of all SF themed wargames, and apply the criteria being used here to the references cited there. Are you truly operating in good faith, or are you expressing an implicit value judgement as to the importance of various subcultures (in this case MA and Wargaming) with similar levels of interest among the general public? Again, please direct your attention to WP:systemic bias .

24.34.109.254 (talk) 11:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Stalking...really? You're scraping the bottom of the barrel in attempts to discredit critics. I was pulled into the Bobby Joe Blythe article due to requests to look into the WP:BLP issues that Bullshido members were attempting to keep in through canvassing and ignoring policy. I was then pulled into a previous Bullshido.net AfD due to the direct connection. I have an established history of getting involved in contentious BLP situations. I have no interest in stalking you people, and really hope to go back to editing interesting articles once this is done.
Bullshido members keep having all these extravagant claims for how important their site is, and how various investigations were due to their work, but they have yet to come up with the sources to back up their claims. The best they have so far is a couple of mentions in an article about a discredited instructor. Problem is, Notability guidlines for web sites specifically call for multiple published sources about the site, in order to ensure there is enough information for a real article about the subject without resorting to original research. So far, not one of these supposed sources is a published article about the Bullshido site.
You can throw around your claims that MMA fighters are some kind of oppressed, underrepresented group, but basically, I think the lack of evidence for your claims easily points to your site just not being as important as you like to think it is. Sχeptomaniac 16:09, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
This conversation has noting to do with "MMA fighters" except in so far as they are martial artists of one kind or another. Do you believe the http://en.wikipedia.org/Association_for_Symbolic_Logic and their pubication "Journal of Symbolic Logic" are reliable sources on the topic of Formal Logic? Can you produce a reliable 3rd party source that is *about* either entity? Shall we nominate that page for deletion? 24.34.109.254 (talk) 17:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Whether or not other articles should exist is a separate issue. Go ahead and nominate it for deletion if you feel the article doesn't belong, but be aware that doing it solely as an attempt to prove a point is strongly discouraged. A quick Google search finds that the journal is academically reviewed, so will probably be found sufficiently notable and a reliable source, though the article itself is currently not sourced well. Meanwhile, Bullshido members dig up every obscure reference they can find yet still fail to find anything that meets notability guidelines. This is a much better example of what WP:Systemic Bias is about: non-notable web groups have a stake in promoting themselves on WP, while truly notable academic organizations are likely not to care much. They don't need to promote themselves on WP, as they are already notable, while Bullshido members fight tooth-and-nail, because they are not. As a result, your comparison does not hold water, as they are completely different situations. Sχeptomaniac 17:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Your hypothesis that our interest in this page is motivated by self-promotion is just that, an hypothesis. And a false one IMO. I can not speak for others, but I found your past arguments against Bullshido.net's reliability as a source to be personally and professionally insulting, as the work linked to in the Jesus Taught Me thread (by a non-member I believe) was substantially my own (along with Messrs Browning and Koepfer). IIRC your objection was that our work is not subject to editorial review, which is patently false. Your personal lack of interest in the subject is not a basis for the deletion of the article. I have spoken with the Graduate Program in Journalism at Stanford, and they confirm what any reasonable person would assume: that articles hosted on the program website are serious, citable products of the university; in this case candidates for a terminal degree (and not "college student projects" as was cynically stated earlier). I am involved in this debate, not because there is an attempt to delete a wiki article that has some visibility; I am involved because there is an attempt to do so by discrediting the reliability, influence, and objectivity of what is *inarguably* the most prominant, most thorough, and most widely read work on the subject that exists. Find a single reference indicating that there is another, better source to be found on the topic of consumer protection in the Martial Arts industry. I suspect you will be unable to. Granting the site's leading position in the field, the only argument left for deletion is that the subject itself is not of interest to the public. It would be interesting to see such an argument supported in a responsible manner. Please proceed. 24.34.109.254 (talk) 18:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
That Bullshido is or isn't the leader in the field is irrelevant. How we determine whether a topic merits an article is according to the notability guidelines. When many new users turn up apparently only to oppose the deletion, it is plainly obvious that they are doing so because they have a bias in favour of the topic. Adambro (talk) 18:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Your argument still doesn't address the points made above nickc181 (talk) 19:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC) — Nickc181 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Are you implying that I am an "new member" here soley to protect this page? Mthai66 (talk) 18:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not implying anything. Adambro (talk) 19:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Your invocation of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS does not address the real point: Removing an entry for the "Journal of Symbolic Logic" would violate common sense, even if it can be justified by a myopic reading of the guidelines and a lot of distortion. This is one reason why WP:IAR exists -- in order to prevent people with obvious grudges and no real focus on improving Knowledge (XXG) from abusing policy in order to pursue an irrelevant agenda.

Using the existence of a group of Bullshido members who are dedicated enough to improve the article and argue for its inclusion as an argument for non-notability is WP:GAME taken to its limit.

An interest in the quality of Knowledge (XXG) would lead one to applaud the sourcing improvements to the article, or to suggest specific types of sourcing that would be acceptable, along with references to establish that the criteria are well-supported by precedent and not just arbitrary barriers which few reasonable topics could pass. I've asked you to do that. If you don't, that's telling us something right there. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

"Inarguably"... You say that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means. If the word applied, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Asserting something as a fact without evidence does not mean we will accept it as fact. In reality, it's just the opposite. If you guys are fraud investigators like you claim, you should realize why we are not going to just accept as fact your claims to importance, review process, etc. We rely on secondary sources about the subject of the article because we need solid sources anyone can check. Without that, we have original research, which, in a setting like WP, is prone to manipulation.
Notability is not a hard-and-fast rule, but it does help draw the line between subjects we have sufficient sourcing on (and will continue to have sources for), and those we do not. Currently, without even a single published article about Bullshido, the article falls far short of the line.
It's unfortunate that the Bullshido members here feel like their site is being disparaged. However, that's one of the main reason the guideline recommending against editing with a conflict of interest exists. Creating an article on a pet project without taking into account WP's rules on sourcing, verifiability, biographies, and notability is ill-advised.
All that said, this page has been a circular argument for the past couple of days, and I should have disengaged at least a day ago. Barring any major developments I'm going to leave this alone and avoid further adding to the crap the closing admin will have to wade through. Sχeptomaniac 15:15, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually, what's unfortunate is that a pack of editors with past grudges against this article and its editors are rushing to judgment regardless of recent and undeniable improvements thereto. Your emphasis on punishing the group of people who care about the article is something I've already noted at length, but your disingenuousness in this regard floors me. It's the fourth nomination, the article is stronger than it's ever been, you fail to address this fact meaningfully, and you wonder why we're offended?

In any case, your demand for an article about Bullshido is a misstatement of the policy on trivial coverage as stated by WP:WEB. The tendency of the lynch mob to do this in the discussion is telling me something. I hope the admins see that you're lying about the policy and weigh your incredibly apparent bias accordingly. If not, it will be the quality of Knowledge (XXG) that suffers, not us. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 15:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

No lie. "Web-specific content is deemed notable based on ... the following criteria. The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself." From WP:NOTABILITY.
"Subject: noun 2. What a speech, piece of writing, or artistic work is about: argument, matter, point, subject matter, text, theme, topic."
So who's misstating policy? Sχeptomaniac 16:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
And the Kung Fu Magazine article is about what other investigation of David Bannon? Did Sam Browning investigate him twice? And the Cage Radio interview -- what did you hear them talk about? You're misstating the facts. In any case, you've never addressed the issue of "trivial coverage" as defined in WP:WEB, and thus are definitely misstating policy, if only by omission. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Neutral. I have !voted to keep this in the past, but upon further consideration maybe the sourcing isn't as great as I thought it was. I would like to see more in the way of non-trivial coverage from reliable third party publications to justify the existence of this article. Perhaps such coverage will turn up at a later date. Perhaps not. JBsupreme (talk) ✄ ✄ ✄ 06:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd appreciate knowing if you have evaluated the recent changes to the sourcing, which extend it well beyond Cunard's summary in the nom. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes. JBsupreme (talk) ✄ ✄ ✄ 06:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
So how did Real Fighter, the TV spot, Kung Fu Magazine, and the Stanford University article fall short? I'd be especially interested if you could cite specific policies, especially the wording of "trivial coverage" in WP:WEB. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 06:32, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Break

  • Keep; How many in the delete camp actually know of the countless contributions bullshido.net has made to debunking martial arts frauds, scams, con artists, and literally pioneering a line of demarcation between applicable forms of realistic self defense and run of the mill scam houses? The terms "Bullshido" and "McDojo" have basically been pioneered by this site and are as common as the word "Google" in the martial arts community. Bullshido is used as a constant point of reference by a worldwide audience whenever a martial arts instructor's, school or academy's credibility are questioned. I'm certain there are many pages that merit deletion on Knowledge (XXG) but a site that basically helped reshape an entire culture is probably not one of them. nickc181 (talk) 19:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC) — Nickc181 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • So let me ask you the following question: do you think that the site is actually "notable" in the standard sense of the word? Do you, based on your personal knowledge and experiencebelieve that in the Real World, people who are interested in the Martial Arts know what Bullshido.net is, and what uses it has for that community? I know the standard definition of "notablility" is not in play here, but it goes to a philosophical issue I have with this entire debate. There is a difference, IMO, between favoring Verifiability over Truth (which is IMO extremely reasonable), and being at war with Reality.Mthai66 (talk) 00:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • If you've never read WP:TRUTH, you owe it to yourself to take the 2 minutes to do so. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's how things are. I've had to !vote keep for crap that I hate it the "real world" and !vote delete for things I liked. But it's not about what I like or dislike as much as whether it meets the standards or not. Bullshido.net has a place in the MA world and it has established itself in that niche. All this effort being expended over a Knowledge (XXG) article that won't help or hurt the site kind of puzzles me. Let's be real about it, whether this articles gets deleted or kept, Bullshido probably won't change one iota. When you go to Google and type in "Bullshido", the site comes up before Knowledge (XXG) every time. That means anyone searching for you or that term is going to get your site or your definition of the term before it gets the one here. You've coined the term, it's in your URL and the title of the page. You pretty much own it. What in the world will having this article kept do for the site? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Have you read WP:NPOV? It's one of the founding cornerstones of Knowledge (XXG) and it is also the core of Bullshido investigations. The neutral, fact-based and open-minded approach to the Bullshido investigations is what have made the website the gold standard in rating martial arts instructors. I like to think neutrality is what made Knowledge (XXG) as popular as it is as well. Bullshido has more than just a role in the martial arts community, it is the de-facto resource for academy and instructor ratings and analysis. The criteria for deletion presented here does not override the overwhelming amount of credible, time-based evidence of Bullshido's role in shaping the modern martial arts landscape. I fail to see how a website that has this much weight and importance in the martial arts community worldwide does not meet Knowledge (XXG)'s standards for inclusion. I'm happy to expand this conversation with a myriad of inclusions that currently live on Knowledge (XXG) untouched, that should not be here. This is clearly not the case. nickc181 (talk) 00:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC) — Nickc181 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • With all respect, you're changing the subject from notability to benefit. You might want to re-read some policies yourself, such as the definition of trivial coverage I've provided below. I see no obvious sign of your having taking the actual definition and the actual current sources into account. If you did, I'd appreciate an explanation; if you didn't, I ask you to reconsider. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I address the question Mthai asked me about my personal opinion. Don't confuse that with my !vote and why I voted that way. I didn't change the subject and I don't need to re-read the policies.Niteshift36 (talk) 01:03, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm trying to be polite about it, but to be blunt, 2 SPA's telling a large number of experienced editors that contribute to a wide variety of topics really doesn't carry a lot of weight with me. As I said in my original vote, I waited a while, read all the discussion and made a decision. No amount of partisan prodding will change that, only significant coverage would. 01:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Addressing the person rather than the policy is a pretty basic logic fail. I am arguing that the recently added coverage is significant. It is not included in Cunard's nom, and it merits a look, along with the actual wording and intent of the policies.

    Your reluctance to consider the facts and policies head-on should probably let the admins know how to weigh your vote. Bluntly. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

  • I didn't address the person and not the policy. I addressed your comments about what you and your clone said about my need to re-read the policy. I'm not reluctant to consider the facts (I said significant coverage could change my mind) or policies (others have addressed you at length about them already, no need to duplicate them). The closing admins have enough history to judge my vote by. I'm not worried. However, now that you've resorted to distorting what I said,I should probably stop conversing with you. They say tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell and have them looking forward to the trip. I don't have much tact, so further appropriate response options are becoming limited. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:31, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually, at this point you're exclusively addressing persons and not policies ("clone"? Thhppttt). Even the reference to SPA's was a bit over the top, given that we have also contributed significant improving edits to the article under discussion. But, hey, don't let the facts get in your way; keep claiming that you'll consider the significance of sources while never actually doing it. That'll work! Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Drive-by comment? Clearly, you don't understand the term. Am I responding to individuals (or one individual pretending to be more than one)? When they make specific, unfounded allegations or ridiculous comments, yes. Calling you a SPA is over the top? LOL. Maybe you aren't familiar with the concept of calling a spade a spade. Damn I wish I had some tact to spare. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:55, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • If your thoughtless slurs added any value to this conversation, I'm sure I'd find a better way to characterize them. As for the insinuations of sockpuppetry, an IP address check would suffice to disprove that. I think he's in Cambridge and I'm definitely in Minneapolis; can you explain the physical process by which I am both people? Either consider the actual references and the actual policies or don't. Your vote will be weighed accordingly, I'm sure. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Cy is Cy and I am me. I am in Arlington MA. My name is Matt Phillips. One very obvious difference between Cy and myself is that he knows what an SPA is, and I do not. Also, FTR to those that pointed out to me that soliciting the presence of an exprienced member of this community to participate in this discussion might be seen as "canvassing", I requested his participation because of his detailed knowledge of both communities, not to vote a certain way. Mthai66 (talk) 03:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • COMMENT When I woke up this morning I did not realize that I was an Inclusionist. It feels good to put a name to it. Can some kind soul please point me to the appropriate venue to suggest a modification to the Notability definition? 24.34.109.254 (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Any suggestion like that from an IP user like yourself is going to over like a ton of lead bricks. But If you'd like to learn more about how to source and improve articles, you could check out the Article Rescue Squadron.--Milowent (talk) 23:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Excuse me, I forgot I wans't logged in. Thank you for the information and the vote of confidence. What I actually want to know is where might I find the correct venue to discuss problems with the Notability definition itself. Or is that on the Meta somewhere?Mthai66 (talk) 23:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Probably the best place to start would be WT:N. kelapstick (talk) 00:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
There was a time in the early days of the project when whether articles had to be "notable" to remain was widely debated, and a significant number of editors, including Jimbo Wales, did not think notability (often called "importance" at the time, circa early 2004) should be required, see, e.g., Knowledge (XXG) talk:Notability/Historical/Fame and importance. One view was that "verfiability" and neutral point of view was really the key requirement for inclusion. Indeed, even in mid-2006, pages like the proposed guideline stored at Knowledge (XXG):Notability/Historical/Importance still stated that "Some Wikipedians hold that articles need to be of sufficient importance to be included in Knowledge (XXG)." and "Many Wikipedians do not consider importance a necessary qualification - see the poll Knowledge (XXG) talk:Fame and importance which failed to win consensus." In the fall of 05 there was a vigorous debate of whether any "notability" requirement should be deleted, see, Knowledge (XXG):Deletion_reform/Brainstorming#Remove_notable_requirement. I don't think there was ever a strong consensus for notability, but those in favor of the requirement slowly won out and the concept as a requirement is now rarely debated. What it really means is where the debate has shifted.--Milowent (talk) 02:03, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Notability does enjoy strong community support. There was an RFC on the subject last year, and it closed with a clear consensus that notability should remain a guideline. Hut 8.5 11:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the link, Hut, I was not aware of that and its not always easy to find all the relevant discussions. I find it interesting that the proposal to make WP:N a policy, like WP:V, instead of a guideline was rejected.--Milowent (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I think it might be useful to quote the definition of "trivial coverage" from WP:WEB, in order to prevent ad-hoc definitions from being used:

    Trivial coverage, such as (1) newspaper articles that simply report the Internet address, (2) newspaper articles that simply report the times at which such content is updated or made available, (3) a brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of Internet addresses and site or (4) content descriptions in Internet directories or online stores.

    Note what this doesn't say. It doesn't require that the subject of the Knowledge (XXG) article be the primary subject of the source of the mention. It doesn't require that the website be described in intimate detail. It is designed to avoid references to the URL only, to brief general statements of the nature of the site, or to automatic aggregators.

    The Real Fighter article does not fall under this definition because it references specific activities undertaken by Bullshido that were relevant, indeed central, to the subject of the article. The TV spot doesn't fall under it either. Certainly the Kung Fu Magazine article exceeds this criterion.

    Any vote to delete which does not address these points directly and in detail, with reference to the details of Knowledge (XXG) policy rather than just blurbs, is not adding anything informative to the discussion. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The "trivial mention" being referenced is not in regards to WP:WEB, it is in reference to the general notability guidelines, which relates to all articles, regardless of their subject, (the section called "Significant coverage", significant as opposed to trivial), which says:
"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.
For clarification, the people advocating deletion believe that none of the sourced address bullshido.net directly in detail. I just read the Real Fighter article again, it is absolutely not addressing bullshido.net directly in detail, the Kung Fu Magazine is not directly addressing bullshido.net either, neither are the Charlotte Observer or the Rocky Mountain one. If you disagree and think that they do address the website in detail, that is your opinion, but like you said earlier, it is for the admins to decide.--kelapstick (talk) 00:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
And "trivial mention" is expanded under WP:WEB, and is the applicable standard for deciding significance in this case. I notice you also ignore the TV spot. The KFM article is a summary of the Bullshido investigation of Bannon and the lessons learned thereby, by the author of the Bullshido investigation. You are making up policy definitions to suit your current argument rather than reading the actual policy. I suspect the admins will not be quite as slapdash. If you want to convince them, you'll have to do better, I think. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Unless the TV show in question is available on DVD, a web site, or some other persistent medium, it violates WP:V. If it merely aired once (and in a foreign country at that) we can't verify it and pretty much have to take the word of whoever said they saw it. *** Crotalus *** 17:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Where I come from there is nothing more notable than http://en.wikipedia.org/Nature_(journal) . I believe you will be hard pressed to find anything about the journal in the public sphere, beyond brief mentions of it as it is cited as a source. I believe you will find the Knowledge (XXG) article on the journal suffering from the same kind of problems mentioned here. Why? Because Nature is a news source, and people don't write very many pieces in which a news source is the subject. IMO there is not a thing wrong with the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/Nature_(journal) ; it is Knowledge (XXG)'s policy that is a bad fit to entities like Nature (and Bullshido.net). No one is ever going to do a feature piece on Bullshido.net, even if the site is used as a source for the NYT, CBS News and Science magazine all in one year. It is a news, research and information *source*, not *topic*. The presumption that everything of note will eventually be written *about* (as subject) is IMO false. Sometimes convention dictates that the mention be brief (if it exists as all), as is often the case with information sources. For example: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4ACEW_enUS299US300&q=WikiGenes&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn . --Mthai66 (talk) 12:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • A quick perusal of Google Books turned up several sources that actually do discuss Nature at some length, not merely cite it.

Scientific American, Volume 182‎ - Page 46; The Advancement of science, Volume 2‎ - Page 326; Essays of an information scientist, Volume 5‎ - Page 264. Unfortunately, most of these are just snippet views, but it is enough to tell that the journal itself is being discussed. This was found in under 5 minutes and I have no doubt serious academic sources on this issue could be found (I would start by searching JSTOR for relevant papers on the history of science). This is a very poor comparison since no one cares about Bullshido or has ever published anything substantive about it. *** Crotalus *** 17:03, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

clearly it can't be said that "no one cares about Bullshido" or else we wouldn't have this TL;DR AfD.--Milowent (talk) 17:49, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete as per nom, there's just not enough significant secondary sources to establish notability. I would support userfying the page while other sources are sought, if the site becomes more notable. Dayewalker (talk) 16:51, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • COMMENT RE: RF ARTICLE My name is Stephen Koepfer and I wrote the original Bullshido article/investigation on Geraci. I wanted to share my account regarding how the RF acticle came into being, since my name has come up here. Sacha Feinman, a noted journalist http://www.linkedin.com/pub/sacha-feinman/17/400/976 contacted me about writing an article about Geraci. He was, as any good journalist would be, concerned with not simply regurgitating our investigation. However, reading my article, he felt it was well written, ivestigated, etc. He felt it would be a good springboard for further investigation. So, I provided all my sources to Feinman. He vetted the entire Bullshido piece, found it to be verifiable, and continued to investigate the case in further directions which Bullshido had not covered. As Feinman noted himself it was the Bullshido article which formed the basis for his own further investigation. Feinman and I did not collaborate on his article, other than my making introductions to sources and the subject, Geraci. Feinman was not paid by Bullshido, nor is he even a member of the site. He came to us because of our notability. I fail to see how the RF article, regardless of how much or little it sepcifically mentions Bullshido in print, could not be considered a notable reference for Bullshido. Our ivnestigation served as the springboard for his, he came to us because of our notability, he personally stated this as such, and the subject of the investigation itself (Geraci) is quoted in the RF article as saying the Bullshido investigation was accurate. If this does not offer proof of Bullshido's notability, the standards of notability must be examined for flaws IMO. Americansambo (talk) 17:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Contrary to what has been stated previously, people do care about Bullshido.net, and everyone in the industry knows that the site is where you go if you have an investigative question pertaining to the martial arts. It is common knowledge, and knowledge that no one has thought to put into print. As to the Nature example, being deliberately obtuse is not helpful. Yes, I know that Bullshido.net is not Nature. That is a matter of degree. Nature suffers fom the same tendency to get "just snippet views", and its Knowledge (XXG) article suffers greatly from the same paucity of good references. And this is for one of the most famous and respected journals in the world. The problem lies (IMO) neither with Nature itself, or with the article as written, but with Knowledge (XXG)'s criteria which is ill suited to vetting information *sources* for Notability. Surely Bullshido.net, or any other smaller information outlet, need not rise to the level of fame associated with a source like Nature before common sense overides the desire to delete articles. --Mthai66 (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
    • That reminds me of the time someone told me regarding something on Knowledge (XXG) that it's common knowledge and thus doesn't need to have sources. Common knowledge has been known to be incorrect, and that's why we need to verify. You all claim that Bullshido.net is the go-to source on shady martial arts practices, and if that's the case, reliable sources should bear that out. But apparently there are no reliable sources for this... thus we can't verify, and must delete. SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • "We all claim". Hm. That's true, and it's not just committed members of Bullshido.net. In fact, every nominally experienced martial artist in this discussion has said they know of Bullshido and check it out at least once in a while. I don't doubt you have not visited it much, but I strongly suspect you're not a martial artist.

    Your attitude that we "must delete" is both dogmatic and in violation of the spirit of Alternatives to deletion. You have done nothing to contribute constructive content to the page; indeed, almost none of the naysayers have done so. This is not unreasonable, since they are mostly not knowledgeable about the subject matter, but it calls into question whether you and many others can reliably assess the notability of the site or the relevance of the references. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

  • While it's preferable, no one has to be "knowledgeable about the subject matter" to edit Knowledge (XXG) or comment on discussions. That's why sites should be notable through reliable outside sources. This isn't a martial arts wiki, it's a general encyclopedia. Dayewalker (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • That's nice, but to evaluate the relative prominence of Real Fighter or to follow the article on Kung Fu Magazine, it's helpful to know at least something about the subject matter. The comments dismissing the significance of these references indicate that the commenters don't actually know much about the subject. If they did, they'd know that every paragraph in either article that addresses fraud detection is discussing Bullshido's work. As Mthai66 demonstrated elsewhere, we are the authority in that area. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Also, let's address this "must delete". Where does it say that you must? A lot of the policies and guidelines being cited are pretty generally worded, and none mandate the deletion of a particular article on indisputably measurable grounds. Your position may be to delete by default, but that's not the way to build consensus, not the way to improve Knowledge (XXG), and not the way to improve the article. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 09:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • You still seem to be missing the point. How we establish whether something is "notable" enough to warrant an article on Knowledge (XXG) is by reference to the notability guidelines, the primary question being whether the topic has "received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources". There seems to have been attempts to justify keeping this article on the basis that its subject is the most notable website in its field. That may be true but it doesn't automatically mean there should be an article about it on Knowledge (XXG). Adambro (talk) 08:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I am certainly not the first person in the history of this project to point out that notability guidelines is flawed. Arguing from those guidelines to the irrational conclusion that an entity that actually *is* notable deserves exclusion, ought to show you quite clearly how and why notability guidelines contains serious flaws. And beyond that, you know it was never intented to be used to exclude entries on subjects that are *objectively and demonstrably* notable by reasonable means not included in that definition. The Google metric given above is just as objective, if not more so, than some piece in print media expounding on the fact that Bullshido.net is synonomous with fraud investigation in the martial arts. I have already demonstrated this fact. It seems to me that all that needs to be shown is that the subject of debunking false claims in the Martial Arts is, itself, "notable". I'd like to think I don't have to link to http://en.wikipedia.org/Syllogism to make the point. --Mthai66 (talk) 14:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The notability guidelines aren't flawed. You certainly aren't the first person arguing against a deletion to say that the guidelines and policies under which the deletion is being proposed are flawed and you certainly won't be the last. The whole concept of establishing notability by identifying significant coverage by reliable sources ensures that at the very least basic information about the subject can be verified and considered to be reliable. If even finding enough reliable sources to establish notability is a problem it suggests that finding suitable sources for information about the subject will be very difficult and that is an important concern. The number of Google hits or the apparent reputation a website might have in a particular community is all very interesting but it doesn't provide a reliable source that can be cited in the article. If we took such factors as primary in considering whether a subject warrants and article we'd end up with many more articles yet they'd be lacking proper sources to verify what they say. Knowledge (XXG) articles really only become useful when there is a nice list of reliable sources at the end of the article which a reader can use to verify what it says. If you wish to argue that the notability guidelines should be changed then WT:NOTE is the place to do it. In the meantime, they are clear in requiring significant coverage in reliable sources and the focus therefore of these discussions for those who think this should be kept should be trying to demonstrate that those guidelines are satisfied. Adambro (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • That is all well and good, but my point all along has been that this argument violates the spirit of WT:NOTE, whose intention (and correct me if I am wrong) is to ensure that trivia is excluded from the encyclopedia. Aesthetic attatchment to "nice lists" is irrelevant. I can demonstrably show that expositions of fraud in martial arts business and practice satisfy the letter of WT:NOTE, and I can demonstrably show that the website Bullshido.net is virtually synonomous with such exposition. In any rational venue, that would suffice. Would you require certain types of references establishing that the Internet exists for the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/Internet? Would you do so *using said Internet* to store and share such an opinion? If you can not see the violation of good faith involved in that, I will be hard pressed to proceed. --Mthai66 (talk) 15:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
    I find it extraordinary that you consider my appreciation of "a nice list of reliable sources at the end of the article which a reader can use to verify what it says" to be irrelevant. Knowledge (XXG):Verifiability is a policy which is so key in what Knowledge (XXG) is trying to do that it is one of the five pillars. My argument, that it needs to be demonstrated that there is significant coverage of this subject in reliable sources certainly doesn't "violate the spirit of WT:NOTE", it is literally what that guideline asks for. Another fundamental and "non-negotiable" policy is WP:NPOV. When it is obvious that a great many of those who have voted "keep" in this discussion have significant links to the website, I have to assume that the article is also edited by such people. That makes it even more important that there are proper reliable sources such that it can be ensured that the article is written from a neutral point of view. Proper reliable sources are not something that are nice to have, they are a necessity. Adambro (talk) 15:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
    In seeking a rational foundation for a position (in this case, that Bullshido.net is Notable) appeals to "(p)roper reliable sources" are certainly sufficient. But they are not *necessary* when other types of information exist. In this case I have appealed to meta-information about the internet to show that such notability is actually the case. It is easily linkable in an article, as I have also shown. Do you intend to ride rough-shod over every entity that best demonstrates its notability through persuasive, if creative, means? I believe there is a principle of following the spirit of rules in play here. I hope you will note that I have never contributed to the article on Bullshido.net, and that I have not even voted "Keep". --Mthai66 (talk) 16:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
    It is important to recognise that "notability" in the general sense and Knowledge (XXG)'s concept of notability aren't the same . As the guideline says, Knowledge (XXG)'s concept of notability "does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or popularity". It is not satisfactory therefore to argue that Bullshido.net is widely known about in the martial arts community or that there are a high number of Google hits for it. The fundamental point to understand is that Bullshido.net may be "notable" in the general sense but yet not meet the general notability criteria on Knowledge (XXG). I would not accept "creative" means of demonstrating notability for any subject. Verifiability, and that means proper reliable sources, is not some obsession with the obscure details of various policies and guidelines, it is central to the whole project. Disregarding the requirement for proper sources is the complete opposite to the spirit of the notability guideline. As I've said, it spells out that fame, importance, or popularity are not the key considerations. "Information on Knowledge (XXG) must be verifiable" is the second sentence. Your argument seems to be that we should disregard the general notability guidelines and that quite obviously would go against the spirit of those guidelines and, at the same time, the fundamental policy of verifiability. Adambro (talk) 17:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I believe that 'bullshido.net' is notable to martial artists and that its inclusion improves wikipedia. I further believe that it has the potential to develop reliable sources. I do not expect the same quantity/quality of references for martial arts that I would expect for Artistotle. jmcw (talk) 08:21, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
    See my comments above, whether the website is notable in its field is not relevant, whether it has "received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources" is what is important here. You say that you "believe that it has the potential to develop reliable sources", but is their "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources" now? That this has been nominated for deletion on a number of occasions with similar concerns suggests that we might have to continue to wait a while. We have to draw a line sometime and should delete this until such time as these reliable sources do actually emerge. As per WP:NOTE, "articles should not be written based on speculation that the topic may meet the criteria in the future".Adambro (talk) 09:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • jmcw's comments were speculation. "I further believe that it has the potential to develop reliable sources" really does seem to be a suggestion that if we wait long enough some decent sources might turn up. Who knows? That might happen, it might not. jmcw seems to accept in making that suggestion that there aren't reliable sources now and WP:NOTE makes it clear that we should wait until there are before making an article. I'm well aware of WP:IAR. I'm pretty sure that the community would agree that it doesn't mean when the article about a website you're associated with or a fan of is nominate for deletion that you can disregard the fundamental policies and guidelines to argue it is kept. Adambro (talk) 15:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • What I see in the delete arguments is wiki lawyering. Martial arts do not receive money for research as do medicine or other sciences. Bullshido.net is the one of the best resources to martial artists trying to determine what it real in martial arts - it serves the function of peer review. Bullshido.net is notable to martial artists but the article does not yet meet the strictest of wiki standards for notability. I stand by my comment above 'its inclusion improves Knowledge (XXG).' jmcw (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • If it is actually the case that 'its inclusion improves Knowledge (XXG)' may we reach an understanding that a stay of execution be rendered while attempts are made to close the gap between the quality of the article at present and what it needs to be to remain a part of the Encylopedia? If it is not objectionable, I will see about making those changes myself. It may be as simple as Bullshido.net beginning the practice of issuing press releases when important information is developed by the site. SOmething that is not done at present. --Mthai66 (talk) 16:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't believe a "stay of execution" would be appropriate. The article has been nominated for deletion enough times that those interested in developing it should have been well aware of the concerns and have had plenty of time to try to address them. Again, WP:NOTE says that articles should only exists once the notability criteria are met, not on an assumption that they will be some unknown point in the future. Therefore, if the consensus is that it doesn't meet the criteria it should be deleted. If at some unknown point in the future developments mean that it would meet the criteria then it can be recreated. I have no objection in principle to there being a Knowledge (XXG) article about this subject providing the appropriate policies and guidelines can be complied with. Adambro (talk) 17:36, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Regarding notability: I notice that practically every article in the list of social networking sites is sourced much less than the Bullshido.net article. I know, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but let's not forget WP:AFDP: "The fact that it's 'only' a common outcome is not sufficient grounds to ignore the accumulated weight of Knowledge (XXG)'s daily practice." This isn't just a common outcome; it's the overwhelming standard.

    I notice that not one argument in favor of deletion has referenced a single precedent, much less a body of precedents. They mostly consist of selective quotes from Knowledge (XXG) standards, or just blurting out the names of the standards. That's not reasonable. It's just wikilawyering, and bad wikilawyering at that.

    I hope the closing admin takes the actual weight of Knowledge (XXG) precedent into account, rather than the selective and incomplete invocations of isolated policies. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 18:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Trying to argue that the notability guidelines are flawed or inapplicable is not going to persuade the closing administrator. They enjoy wide consensus and support from amongst editors, and they are routinely applied. Something like 4-5000 articles are deleted a month through WP:PROD and WP:AFD, and most of these are deleted as the result of notability or sourcing problems. Knowledge (XXG) doesn't have "precedents", there's nothing to stop the community deciding that an article meets the notability guideline one week and then deciding it doesn't the next. (Indeed if we did have precedents it would increase the wikilawyering you claim to despise.) WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS exists for a reason: this is a discussion about bullshido.net, and the notability of unrelated social networking websites has no relevance whatsoever. For what it's worth there is nothing stopping you from nominating any of those articles for deletion. Hut 8.5 20:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Trying to ignore facts that don't support your argument in favor of ones that you can twist to your purpose shouldn't convince them either. WP:AFDP is clear: "Precedents are useful guides to the practical implementation and interpretation of Knowledge (XXG)'s notability guidelines. The fact that it's 'only' a common outcome is not sufficient grounds to ignore the accumulated weight of Knowledge (XXG)'s daily practice." In any case, I am not arguing that the notability guidelines are flawed or inapplicable; I am arguing that the interpretation you and several others are putting on them is arbitrary, contrived, and overhwhelmingly unsupported by precedent in the relevant space of articles. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 20:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
WP:AFDP is not a policy or guideline. It does not follow community support, and there is no reason why we should follow its pronouncements. That page exists to document a number of previous discussions on the notability of specific examples of articles, such towns and villages. Bullshido.net doesn't fall under any of them, and that page doesn't have any relevance here. Knowledge (XXG) decisions are made based on consensus, which can change, and there is no such thing as a binding precedent here.
This article is not being treated any more harshly at AfD with respect to the notability guidelines than any other. It is entirely routine for articles on websites, organisations, people etc to be deleted for failing the notability guidelines. (If you doubt this, have a look at some AfD logs.) The fact that there exist other articles which may well fail AfD if subjected to it in no way disproves this. Hut 8.5 21:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
So on the one hand you claim that precedent has no bearing, and on the other hand you invoke it -- without any examples, of course. It is telling that not one of your arguments references any specific fact, especially those involving the recently added references, or any applicable precedent.

The wikilawyering on this article could be applied to practically any article. Each reference can be disparaged on specious grounds, and thus there are no references, and the article should be deleted. What a way to improve Knowledge (XXG)! Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not invoking precedent, I am invoking policies and guidelines. These are not the same thing. (An argument relying on precedent would be something like "we deleted the article on Martial Arts Forum X, therefore we have to delete this article as well".) Your claims I have not addressed the referencing are simply untrue - in my reply to you above I pointed to specific reasons why given references do not establish notability. It is also not true that it is impossible to meet the notability guidelines. If you can point to a reference which isn't written by bullshido.net, dicusses bullshido.net in detail, and meets the requirements of WP:RS (that includes most non-local newspapers, books from respected publishers, academic journals, etc) then the article will be kept. Hut 8.5 22:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
"This article is not being treated any more harshly at AfD with respect to the notability guidelines than any other." invokes precedent and provides no evidence. Your first statement is demonstrably false; you did nothing to demonstrate its truth. For someone who doesn't buy a multitude of magazine articles, a radio spot, and a TV spot, the latter two of which indisputably center on Bullshido's work in various areas, you are quite reluctant to prove any of your claims.

As for the detail of the discussions, exactly how much did you know about the Bannon investigation before you read the KFM article? Probably not much, unless you also read the Bullshido.net article. The Cage Radio interview has a lot of detail as well. You did review those, didn't you? I would just like to know if you know what it means to have a plethora. I would not like to think that someone would tell someone else he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has no idea what it means to have a plethora. ;) Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) To address your points one by one:

  • I advised you to look at some other AfDs because you are a new editor with very little experience of the deletion process, as has become obvious from some of your responses here. It is possible that due to your lack of experience you think that deleting articles because of the notability guideline (in other words, applying the notability guideline) is unusual.
  • As has been explained to you numerous times, notability requires third party reliable sources that address the subject directly and in detail. One-sentence mentions in magazines do not meet this requirement. Neither does a magazine that cites bullshido.net as a source.
  • In order to be a valid reference under WP:V, it must be possible for a reader to check that the source does support any statements attributed to it. Unless your radio talk show is accessible online or recordings can be bought from the broadcaster (or something similar) it doesn't qualify. I can sense that you are going to cite the sentence from WP:V that says "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources", this statement means that if (for instance) you have to go to your local library to check a source it's still a valid reference. It doesn't mean you can cite references even if there is no way of checking they support the statement. I should add that a talk show probably doesn't meet WP:RS anyway.
  • Your claim that "you're not intimately familiar with the details of XYZ, therefore you can't take part in this discussion" is wrong and has been rebutted above. Hut 8.5 12:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
You didn't actually address any of my points directly. You make vague references to other AfD discussions while being careful to cite no specifics. I don't think deleting articles is unusual; I do think that deleting them by citing increasingly minor issues with the article is silly, especially coming from people who are careful never to suggest a specific standard of improvement or actually improve the article. I did. Why didn't you?

Furthermore, WP:V does not mean you have to focus on American or Anglophone sources because some editor isn't willing to do the work. This is an international project.

As for familiarity with details, when Stephen Koepfer, the President of the American Sambo Association, comes in here to tell you that the site is notable, I suggest you sit down and listen.

"No way of checking the source"? Did you even try? Also, this was a news feature, not a talk show.

If you want to play wikilawyer and disregard actual notability, go right ahead. Knowledge (XXG) will be the loser in that transaction, not Bullshido.net. Unlike Knowledge (XXG), we get cited by a board member of the U.S. Judo Association when investigating a faker who stole his ran certificates. I know you wont change your vote, but nothing requires me to sit idly by and watch you play Knowledge (XXG) like it's a game. Either listen to the people who know what's what or don't. Doom yourselves to increasing irrelevance if you like. I hope for your project's sake that the closing admins have a sounder perspective on this than you do. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why I'm continuing to reply to these points, but anyway:
  • Again, I pointed you to other AfD discussions so you could familiarise yourself with Knowledge (XXG)'s deletion procedures. I didn't make an argument along the lines of "we deleted article X therefore we have to delete this one" because, as I explained above, this argument is flawed.
  • The general notability guideline is not a "silly minor issue", it is a basic test that is generally applied and not very hard to surmount. If sources for a subject don't exist, it isn't possible to write an article that complies with it. The people arguing to delete this article don't think it is possible to improve it in such a way as to address their concerns. That is why they haven't edited it.
  • I did try to find a copy of that show. The previous four episodes are available on their website. However even if the relevant one was there it wouldn't stay that way. Again, I don't think this programme fact-checks statements made by their panelists, especially as it seems to be an internet radio station, so it doesn't pass WP:RS anyway.
  • Bragging about how brilliant your website is isn't going to help you here. Nobody cares. Hut 8.5 10:28, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
You don't know why you continue to reply? Neither do I. You've shown no interest in improving the article, and no recognition of the improvements thereto. I could only speculate on the psychological basis for your actions, but there appears to be no rational basis on which you'd care about the fate of a martial arts article.
  • Again, pointing me to "other AfD discussions" is a handwaving method for avoiding specifics. It's silly even by Internet argument standards. I've looked at some of those discussions, and I've seen nothing consistent in them.
  • The guideline isn't the silly and minor issue; the silly and minor issue is the basis on which it's being misapplied. You began by whining about the article, then about two or three sections of the article (all but one of which are now soundly sourced). Deleting an article because you don't like one section? Doesn't pass a smell test.
  • Did you email the host of the radio talk show? Did you do anything in order to acquire it? Or did you look at one website, see nothing, and declare an opportune defeat?
  • I'm trying to show you the actual notability of the site, as attested to by Stephen Koepfer, Neil Ohlenkamp, and other experts. That's not bragging; it is a fact. This isn't about having a super-specific knowledge of martial arts. This is about knowing anything much at all about the subject. Again, everyone in this discussion with a demonstrated history of knowledge and interest in the space, even those voting to delete, has mentioned knowing of the site and frequenting it. Against that, the blithe ignorance of editors who want to assert universal expertise amounts to nothing. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I don't know why I continue to reply, when all I get in return is misrepresentations of my position (I am not saying the article should be deleted because I "don't like one section") and repetition of arguments I have already addressed. Now at this point this discussion clearly isn't helping anyone so I'm not going to continue it further. Hut 8.5 13:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm just following the substance of your argument. You made objections to specific sections. All but one have been fixed. You haven't addressed those improvements and haven't changed your vote, so what else is one to conclude? If you dislike this result, I can only suggest that you make a clearer argument. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 20:27, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
After all the times it's been explained to you in exhaustive detail by several different editors, you think notability is about sourcing of specific sections?! Hut 8.5 21:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
You are shifting your ground. First you complained that the radio show wasn't WP:V because you couldn't verify it without actually trying; now you're retreating to WP:NOTE. Arguing that one lone source does not impart notability does not mean that you've succeeded in addressing notability generally. You're ignoring: a TV news feature; a magazine article which, as the President of the American Sambo Association himself came here to tell you, was based on Bullshido's work and acknowledged the same; multiple news items; a published article from Stanford University... Let's hear you say what would be notable, and back it with specific precedents. Otherwise you're engaging in pure obscurantism. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment In regards to WP:V, the nature of Bullshido.net one of consumer advocacy. As a result, it is a generator of content rather than an aggregator. It will be used as a source for other people's content rather than be written about itself. In addition to this, WP:SOURCES states that
Self-published expert sources are regarded as reliable in limited circumstances (see below). All self-published sources, whether experts or not, are considered reliable as sources on themselves, especially in articles about themselves, subject to certain criteria, though no article should be based primarily on such sources."

WP:SELFPUB applies in the case of Bullshido.net as it is self-sourcing and generates content. The wikipedia entry is not based 'primarily on such sources,' but it certainly adds another source of verifiability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkening (talk • contribs) 21:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Correct. Cunard's assessment of the use of the Ashida Kim article as a citation is wrong; the article demonstrates the claim. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
The concerns about this article's inclusion rest on notability problems. Self-published and primary sources cannot be used to establish notability. Hut 8.5 22:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
So at this point, discussion should focus on WP:N. The use of WP:V as a basis for deletion should be avoided and is not a fallback when sources which prove WP:N are provided. Darkening (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to make a note that Verifiability is one of the 3 issues initially brought up by Cunard. At this point, it appears to no longer be an issue as Notability is the main issue now. Darkening (talk) 22:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't realize that threshold had been crossed. Certainly none of the naysayers have acknowledged as much. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually, my first suggestion fails; if the AfD is amended, then all the subsequent concurrences will appear to address the new references, which they did not. Second suggestion still has merit, but again, I don't know what's standard here. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Anyone? Bueller? The AfD is now factually false from its first sentence onward. Is it worth avoiding the risk of misleading people who just read the nom and assume its current accuracy? Unless that is the point, in which case, GG. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 13:36, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • A notation after the AfD to the effect that it is no longer factually accurate is not rewriting anyone else's comments. I already withdrew the idea of amending the AfD. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 20:27, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment The original stipulation that Bullshido.net fails the No Original Research policy is unfounded. There is no information in the Bullshido.net article which pushes original research that isn't supported by external sources. Mentions of the Bannon case are supported by articles in the Rocky Mountain News and Charlotte Observer (Google News search screen capture) which are up for purchase in their archives. With the inclusion of the Bullshido.net research in independent 3rd party reliable sources, the argument that the Bullshido.net article fails WP:OR is moot. Darkening (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Are we looking at the same article? The entire overview section has no source, which means it is original research. The entire Throwdown section is has no source, with the exception of the last line, which means it is all original research (except for the last line). The "spin off series" section has no references, and is all original research. The Bannon section is the only part that is reasonably sourced, and that is because all of the sources are about him, and not Bullshido, all of which are in the article about him. It's interesting really that the martial arts fraudster is actually more notable than the fraud investigation site...--kelapstick (talk) 00:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Speaking of reading the article, you might want to look at the current version, as previously stated. The source in the origin and name is more than sufficient under WP:SELFPUB. The investigation sections has multiple sources for multiple investigations, including Khristian Geraci and Milton Wallace. The criticism section is also amply sourced. The overview section needs improvement, and the spinoffs section could be flensed away without any real loss of information, but deleting the article to fix two iffy sections is insane. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 00:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Additionally, the Throwdown section now has sourcing. Calls for deletion are not a reasonable way to get an article improved. Next time, if you want a change, post something in the discussion page. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
That video is being hosted by the commercial entity that produced it. It says so on the page. That is why I linked directly to that page, and not the YT video itself. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 03:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The link in the article goes to a youtube page that says it was posted by user bullshido throwdown. So now you're saying that user bullshido throwdown is really that news station? Niteshift36 (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh, sorry, thought you were actually replying about the new sourcing. My bad. You didn't mean the throwdown video posted by Modcom. In any case, go ask; maybes don't make it so. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • No, I'm talking about the one you are using as a source in the article. Despite trying to be civil towards you, I still get 3 sarcastic edit summaries from you. Why do I even bother. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • OK, sorry, I am being a jerk and need to calm down. deep breath

    There are three citations in the current Throwdown section, two of which were videos, one of which was added today. I figured you were talking about the one added today, since that's what I discussed in this subthread. I now know you meant the channel JOJ news item, which I believe was posted with the permission of the channel (I'll go ask). The video link I added today was not posted on YT by BullshidoThrowdown, so that's how I got confused. Mea culpa.

    That said, I believe it's not a copyright issue; I believe the clip is being used with permission, but I'll make sure. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 04:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Confirmed the copyright thing. Channel JOJ was fine with this news feature being put up as long as their logo was on the product. It is. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:15, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • So, now that this is settled, does it change your vote? Or was your objection just a nice bit of WP:GAME? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that a description of a given topic requires external sources? That would be akin to having someone else describe what you do for a living as opposed to you describing it yourself. That may be an anecdote, that it is what you are implying. The Bullshido.net article does not push original research outside of describing what Bullshido.net does. To say that the article needs citations in describing its purpose is ridiculous. Darkening (talk) 03:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Why? SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Why fire alarms of course --Mthai66 (talk) 04:43, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Americansambo already made comments in the discussion above. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 05:20, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep For all the reasons I have given above. And now that I know what WP:SPA refers I would ask that those leveling that charge at me do the obvious and check my edit history. --Mthai66 (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Bullshido.net was mentioned on CBS-owned TV.com; a thread on Bullshido.net that brought out the participation of many cast members of the show in question. Knowledge (XXG)'s Reliable Source Examples state the following with regards to the use of electronic or online sources:
   o An Internet forum with identifiable, expert and credible moderators with a declared corrective moderation policy may,
   exceptionally, be considered reliable for some topics. In this sense, where moderators act as editors to review material 
   and challenge or correct any factual errors, they could have an adequate level of integrity. This exception would only be 
   appropriate to fields that are not well covered by print sources, where experts traditionally publish online.
Martial Arts is not a field with a substantial amount of coverage in print sources. Martial Arts Investigations have near zero coverage in print sources. The references that are mentioned in the news article all reference Bullshido and not any other martial arts web sites or organizations. Bullshido is precisely this: an internet forum with identifiable, expert, and credible moderators with a declared corrective moderation policy. In addition, the site clearly identifies expert contributors be they staffers or members. The moderators, as well as the community members are vigorously dedicated to reviewing material as well challenging and correcting factual errors. At least to me, it follows logically that a site strong enough to be a Reliable Source Example is strong enough to warrant a page of its own. Carol Kaur (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC).
Concur --Mthai66 (talk) 15:15, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Knowledge (XXG):Notability requires third-party sources, so bullshido.net, even if it is a reliable source (it isn't), cannot be used as a source to establish the notability of bullshido.net. It's not true that martial arts is a field with little coverage in print sources, there are thousands of books on the subject. A very brief mention on a comment thread, even if the site is owned by CBS, does not count as a reliable source and doesn't establish notability. Hut 8.5 12:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Agree completely with Hut 8.5. Whether or not bullshido.net could be described as a reliable source doesn't overrule the notability guidelines. Adambro (talk) 15:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Knowledge (XXG) is not going to overrule the notability guideline simply because the article title sounds a bit like "bullshit". It a subject doesn't have sources, it doesn't have sources. Hut 8.5 20:49, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • What exactly is so appealing about the extreme intellectual brittleness being trumpeted as commitment to principle in this discussion? Some entities are harder to source than others. Knowingly arguing that an entity is not Notable while knowing full well that it is in fact of note in the Real World is intellectual dishonesty of a high order. Some of you here would seemingly vote to delete an artilcle on Yetis even if a live Yeti were sitting in the same room smoking a cigar. I do not believe Knowledge (XXG) was created to give anal retentive rules lawyers an excuse to make a mockery of the standards of rational inquiry. This is why the directive to give priority to the spirit of a rule exists, because cases will crop up where the standard interpretation produces an irrational result. Put away the Monster Manuals, stop quoting scripture and *use your damn minds*. If scientists restricted themselves ahead of time to using only certain types of experiments, virtually nothing would get done. Intellectual agility is a virtue, not a vice. It's a big site. It has a lot of members. It gets a lot of traffic. It dominates a field that is of interest to a broad swath of the American public (consumers of Martial Arts instruction). All of these facts have been demonstrated in this discussion. If you know all that to be true, and yet persist in voting "delete" in defense of inflexibility, you are guilty of subverting a noble project and attempting to turn it into a grotesque. --Mthai66 (talk) 23:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Skipping the grand speech, when I say the site isn't "notable" I mean "it doesn't comply with Knowledge (XXG):Notability". That page gives the notability standards Knowledge (XXG) has decided to adopt. If you don't like those standards, go to the guideline talk page and try to get a consensus to change them. Until that happens they will continue to be applied in AfD discussions like this one. Hut 8.5 10:28, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Skipping the childish snark, you've done nothing to demonstrate lack of compliance with WP:NOTE. Furthermore, unless you want Knowledge (XXG) itself to become irrelevant, real-world notability matters. This is why WP:IAR exists, and why WP:GAME is an anti-pattern, not a policy recommendation. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not seeing a consensus emerging here. Nobody is converging on a generally acceptable answer. The delete votes never suggest any improvement that would suffice, stating only that each and every improvement in the sourcing is irrelevant or insufficient, without really justifying that position. The keep voters have been the only ones moving to improve the article itself, and to address the stated concerns of their opposition, but it appears that one side of this argument had made up its mind long ago. They did not work to build a consensus or compromise in any way. They did not work with us. Thuys, there is no consensus. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 09:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
    • I disagree with both your interpretation of policy, and your denial of consensus. However, it's not for either of us to make the call. An uninvolved admin will be along at the conclusion of the AfD to review the contents and make a decision. Dayewalker (talk) 15:48, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
      • That's swell. Can you show me how anything is merging to a consensus? Any mutually acceptable middle ground at all? Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 01:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
        • I don't think your definition of consensus matches up with Knowledge (XXG)'s. Have a look at Knowledge (XXG):Consensus. Hut 8.5 10:28, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
          • I did, and here's what you apparently didn't read: "Discussions should always be attempts to persuade others, using reasons. If discussion turns into a polarized shouting match then there is no possibility of consensus, and the quality of the page will suffer." See also Knowledge (XXG):What_is_consensus?: "Consensus is the community resolution when opposing parties set aside their differences and agree on a statement that is agreeable to all, even if only barely." Want to argue that's happened here? Go for it. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep this is one of the most important niche martial arts websites on the internet , and it would be a disservice to the encyclopedia, and public knowledge, to delete such an important site/article based on questionable reasoning. the most recent version of the article which i've read clearly provides adequate sourcing for such a niche topic. sure, there are no time magazine articles for sourcing, but i wouldn't expect there to be. the sourcing provided, even if it's not very strong, should satisfy wikipedia's requirements if you look at the situation based on making the encyclopedia better vs being a fundamentalist who needs nytimes sources to validate notability of a niche site. Theserialcomma (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment There are those, including me, who do not differentiate between "making the encyclopedia better" and "being a fundamentalist who needs nytimes sources to validate notability," although I don't see how being a fan of WP:GNG makes me some kind of fundamentalist, nor do I necessarily require sourcing to the NY Times, or even sources of that caliber in general. You are correct in noting that the sourcing provided is not very strong. I cannot verify whether the rest of your arguments -- that it is "one of the most important niche martial arts websites on the internet," for example -- are equally correct because no reliable sourcing exists to support them. QED. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 21:37, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete This is one of those particularly prickly AfD's where if you disregard the actual quality of the sourcing provided, you might be tempted to vote keep. Unfortunately, an ocean of trivial mentions, non-mentions, and larger mentions in completely unreliable sourcing does not a notable topic make, no matter how relatively well-written this article is (relative to most articles that I think are blatant candidates for deletion, on review). Reviewing the sources doesn't even make this a particularly close call. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 20:33, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Just by virtue of the site's #2 ranking in genre and #75 ranking in overall traffic at big-boards.com I think you must grant that it is a forum of note. All fora suffer from the same small footprint in offline media, not just this one. Even skyscrapercity.com (which is #1 for overall traffic) is just barely better than Bullshio.net in media coverage. --Mthai66 (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment That is an excellent example of a looser definition of a given concept is completely acceptable. Reading through the criticisms here, there are many points here that say the Bullshido page has no sources. There are many counterpoints in place that say the page indeed does have sources, multiple sources. The counter to the counterpoints state that the sources are there, but they do not meet a strict definition. The link Wiki Link to Something Awful starts by reading:
   Something Awful, often abbreviated to SA, is a comedy website housing a variety of content, including 
   blog entries, forums, feature articles, digitally edited pictures, and humorous media reviews. It was 
   created by Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka in 1999 as a largely personal website, but as it grew, so did its 
   contributors and content. Since then, the website has influenced internet culture and helped to 
   perpetuate various internet phenomena.
This is not a strict definition of a web forum.
To recap, "Something Awful is a comedy website housing a variety of content, including:
  • Blog Entries
  • Forums
  • Feature Articles
  • Digitally Edited Pictures
  • Humorous Media Reviews
This is a very loose description of a "forum". Loose, but still acceptable.
Looser descriptions are acceptable by Knowledge (XXG) standards. Knowledge (XXG)'s Notability Page reads:
   As the Knowledge (XXG) community has grown its rules have in turn become more complex, a trend labeled by Nicholson Baker as 
   Instruction creep. This trend is reflected in the development and increasing complexity
   of the notability guidelines, with various special notability guidelines being proposed for specific topic areas, 
   including notability criteria for porn stars.
The criteria for notability can indeed be in flux. The criteria for notability can indeed meet a looser description. A looser description can be acceptable. The Bullshido page meets all of the guidelines for a notable and sourced page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carol Kaur (talk • contribs) 05:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
To suggest that the support for this deletion is based upon some obsession with the technical details of Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines rather than in keeping with the spirit of those pages is without merit. As I've already explained, the notability guidelines have at their core a requirement for information to be verifiable. As I've pointed out, verifiability "is one of Knowledge (XXG)'s core content policies". All that I and others are asking is that the general notability guidelines are complied with. This isn't an example of instruction creep getting in the way, the GNG is very basic and about as simple as it gets. Adambro (talk) 08:17, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
To suggest that your reading of WP:NOTE is the only possible or reasonable reading in this case is silly. Carol Kaur is citing relevant text about the concept of Notability; that it is text you choose to ignore when making your interpretation of the policy is a problem with your argument, not hers. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Carol Kaur is essentially taking my "loose" definition of forum (a fair point) and allowing it to lead, as if as part of a logic proof, to support for a "loose" interpretation of notability criteria. This is utter nonsense -- and I apologize for the strong language, but I don't like it when my words are twisted -- insofar as my definition of a forum has precisely nothing to do with my "interpretation" of notability criteria.

Indeed, the only argument in here that appears to attempt to "ignore" notability is Carol Kaur's, which is a tired and familiar argument in support of clearly non-notable material that basically reads: "look, notability is open to interpretation, and the nature of this topic is such that nobody talks about it in reliable sources, so it's notable, because rules change, right?" Wrong. This is an argument that, by its very nature, ignores both WP:VERIFY and WP:GNG. There is nothing particularly interpretable about WP:VERIFY.

The arguments being made in favor of deletion are extremely simple, and are inevitably met with hundreds of words of spirited refactoring and reinterpretation of policy, rather than the addition of plainly verifiable citing from reliable sources. This is the kind of thing seen in an AfD that, for me, is extremely telling.

ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 14:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The fact that Ginsengbomb regards Carol's argument by Demonstrative Proof to be "utter nonsense" is also extremely telling. Wiki 1 Logic 0. --Mthai66 (talk) 16:36, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
"the nature of this topic is such that nobody talks about it in reliable sources". Why you persist in discounting the scholarly output of Stanford university is beyond me. This piece is the work of a candidate for a terminal degree, and (as confirmed by the named department) has the tacit approval of the university, demonstrated by their hosting of said content on the departmental website. The use of the language "college student project" to discount this reference is such an egregious violation of good-faith presumption I am inclined to wonder what is the point. There are no "college students" at Stanford University; there are no "college students" in graduate school. Disregarding this as if it were simply a term paper for Freshman Composition at Bunker Hill Community College is a refusal to acknowledge that your standards have been satisfied. What are we even talking about at this point? --21:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The argument is, taken at its best possible value, an amusing satire of a demonstrative proof. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 21:08, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Then why mock it as such? The implication is that you have some disregard for such modes of argument. I am inclined to wonder. --Mthai66 (talk) 21:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Because it wasn't intended as satire. Either way, are you trying to make some kind of point relevant to the AfD here or is your mental masturbation as pointless as it appears to be? ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 22:36, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I do not consider a graduate student thesis to be a notability-conferring source, regardless of the quality of the university, no. Also, I didn't say "college student project" anywhere in my post. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 22:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Search this discussion to see where those exact words were used. Also, if academic publications do not confer notability, the wiki is about to get a LOT smaller and a LOT dumber.

Your snark-ridden tone does nothing but establish your ridiculous antipathy and bias. Cy Q. Faunce (talk) 23:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm just pointing out that someone responding directly to a post of mine continued on to quote someone else, without differentiating. That's problematic. Also, I am sorry that you don't understand the notability guidelines. Also, weren't you blocked two days ago for personal attacks or being disruptive or something along those lines? Your thoughts regarding my "snark-ridden tone" aren't exactly ones I hold in high regard. I have no bias regarding "bullshido.net". I've never even heard of it. Frankly, it seems like a pretty cool website. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 01:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The arguments being made are ignoring the citations and the references. By that logic, flash-in-the-pan news bytes,such as the AC Transit Bus Fight are more notable, as long as they have accompanied by a viral video to get news coverage along with a news story. Again, another instance where the criteria is simply elastic.
   I removed the notability tag you placed on AC Transit Bus fight. The tag does not apply because the general 
   notability guideline is met by the substantial coverage in reliable sources. Feel free to renominate this article 
   for deletion at AfD, though, if you believe WP:NOTNEWS applies. Cheers, Cunard (talk) 22:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
The refrences for the Bullshido page are not as passing as they are made out to be. They reflect the work that Attorney Browning did for Bullshido. They do not state that someone had coffee with Sam Browning of Bullshido, nor do they state that Sam Browning made a post about a case he handles in his private practice on Bullshido. They reflect the he did in conjunction with the site as it relates to the story.
The United States Judo Association or USJA has web page that lists all of the individuals that have been suspended or expelled from the organization. Scroll to the bottom and you'll find the listing of one Matt Morton, of the U.S. State of Missouri. There are many entries on Bullshido, including this thread started by a prominent judoka whose credentials have been vigoroulsy verified by the Bullshido admins, that questioned whether Matt Morton truly had the rank he claimed. The resulting investigation indicated that Matt Morton's rank was likely false. The discussion was followed on JudoForum (cited here on Knowledge (XXG) for its Judo articles) run by Sensei Neil Ohlenkamp, whose certificate was the one that Matt Morton stole to make his own, as well as on MartialTalk.com. Now, why did that happen? Anyone can say anything about anybody, correct? Anyone can put up a web page to say anything, correct? A person could announce that they are a black belt, that would not make it so, nor would it mean that anyone would care. To see how Matt Morton's certificates were vigorously investigated, and to the point where the USJA noticed....and took the steps to investigate (and subsequently suspend) Matt Morton for his actions speaks volumes of the impact of the website. Anyone can see for themselves, here is a Google query for "Matt Morton" and Judo. Compare the number of names on USJA's Expelled/Suspended page with all the people that are members of the USJA -- the Wiki page says this accounts for more than 1000 clubs across America. Bullshido? Non-notable? If it wasn't, the USJA would not have cared. --Carol Kaur 01:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carol Kaur (talk • contribs)
This is a pretty outstanding defense of Bullshido as a quality and impactful investigative site, and I applaud you for not getting dragged down into the fray here. That said, while I sympathize with your points (and I sincerely do), and I assume they are accurate, they simply do not confer or equate to notability. If the actions, events, etc., being described above were actually notable, they would be the subject of non-trivial coverage in third parties. They do not appear to have been, judging both by the sources in the article and by your thoughtful post here. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 01:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
"I do not consider a graduate student thesis to be a notability-conferring source, regardless of the quality of the university" File under stunned and speachless. "If the actions, events, etc., being described above were actually notable, they would be the subject of non-trivial coverage in third parties" You keep saying this as if it is self-evident, when in fact a write-up of just such an investigation exists in the Geraci case, and is being discounted here for failing to be *about* Bullshido.net. Be honest, you don't want an article on the Matt Morton case, you want a feature in Wired magazine *on* Bullshido.net. Just say so. And can we leave masturbation out of this please? --Mthai66 (talk) 02:10, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment For the record, the work on the Matthew Morton case was done by myself and one other member of this discussion. Much of the most damaging evidence against Mr Moton came in the form of image analysis demonstrationg that credentials such as this had anomolies evident upon enhancement indicating that they had been doctored. Legitimate credentials of this typewere examined, until the exact image manipulated by Mr Moton was identified, and the precise nature of the manipulation was demonstrated by superimposition. Now tell me, which publication is most likely to reprint such an analysis? If you can't think of one then we surely do have something in common. If you can think of a 3rd part neurtal publication that would consider reprinting it, speak up and I'll have a manuscript on their desk in a matter of days. The truth is that, to my knowledge, no such publication exists. That is not an argument against the reality that Bullshido is Notable for such work. Bullshido.net came into existence precicely for the purpose of filling that void. --Mthai66 (talk) 02:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy Deleted per G3 as obvious hoax or misinformation (Non-Admin Closure) Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The Birds are coming (Painting) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I have found no 3rd party reliable sources to demonstrate the notability of this painting. Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Rich Osborn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This is an unreferenced BLP of a martial artist who does not meet WP:MANOTE. The article has been tagged for lack of references for 3 years. A Google search for subject's name and either taekwondo or "tae kwon do" produced only 31 hits, none of which showed notability. Article claims subject was undisputed kickboxing champion for 6 years, but does not say of what organization and no kickboxing title is mentioned in the awards section. Papaursa (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was Keep and Rename Clear consensus to keep with a new name - Bus transport in Ecuador. Mike Cline (talk) 09:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Ecuador buses (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This article is WP:ESSAY and pure WP:OR. We do not have CSD reasons for essay articles yet (but see if we should!), so using AFD. This is borderline WP:ADVERT, and it's obvious how-to. — Timneu22 · talk 18:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete. I hate to say "per nominator", but Timneu covered it all. It's all just a big how-to essay about riding buses with a strong whiff of advertising. No indication of why this is an encyclopedic topic, and the article certainly lacks encyclopedic tone. » scoops “5x5„ 21:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep The article was nominated for deletion within 4 minutes of its creation by someone who tells us "I enjoy speedily deleting". He should please understand that AFD is not CSD and that nominations require due diligence so that the normal editing process is not disrupted. The topic is notable and I have made a start on improving it. I have knocked it back to a sourced stub so that it may survive the hostile nay-sayers but my impression is that the original content was quite accurate and just needs wikification rather than deletion. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
    The original content had a conclusion section and was complete OR, including being written in the second person. I noted that it's possible to have an encyclopedic article on this topic, but that is not what the author intended and that's not how the article was presented. — Timneu22 · talk 11:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
    Another comment... yes, I enjoy speedily tagging nonsense articles, and I get just about all of them right. I would even go as far as to say I got this one right, because the text that appears now is completely different than the original, and the article's title will be different in the end. So in a way, the article was deleted, and a new one was created with the correct title and correct text. — Timneu22 · talk 12:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. Rename to Bus transport in Ecuador and add a category to Category:Bus transport by country for future expansion. It would not be difficult to re-write. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:33, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
    I also suggested that renaming to something similar was the right thing to do. — Timneu22 · talk 12:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Change to keep, after rename. The original author wrote an essay (and frankly created the wrong title). The current stub is how an article with this title should have been started. I was not going to put any effort into "saving" the article because I don't know enough about the topic. In its current stubbed-state, there's no reason to delete it. It's only a valid article now because of the editors here who decided to save it. — Timneu22 · talk 12:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Rename and keep there has to be sources out there for this... nearly any country's transit system is covered by news and scholars... Arskwad (talk) 18:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename I agree on this one. Also, if the article is less than a day old, try to talk to the new creator, instead of just nominating it for deletion. Be more sensitive to their feelings. Dream Focus 06:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Miriam Nyhan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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The prod was contested and all that was added is an Amazon link. I can't find significant coverage for this author. Joe Chill (talk) 17:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was Withdawn. I have two things I have to say. First: It's not common sense that the film had a theatrical release when the article didn't even mention it. Second: It doesn't matter that I prodded it 2 minutes after creation. Prod is very different from speedy; it gives editors a chance to improve the article within a week. If the prod is contested on the last day and the prodder still doesn't think that notability is shown, that is two weeks in all. Joe Chill (talk) 22:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The Census Taker (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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The prod was removed and the remover added one source, but the source is only a paragraph long review. Fails WP:NF. Joe Chill (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep This 1984 film was released nationally in theatres, and was widely distributed on VHS (as Husbands, Wives, Money & Murder), but is no longer in distribution, and has nver been released on DVD. It has a notable cast, including Garrett Morris of SNL fame. This film received significant 3rd party reviews when it was released, but this was before the Internet, so these reviews exist in hard copy sources such as magazines and newspapers. Notability is not temporary. This film meets WP:FILM guidelines. Moorsmur (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
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  • Keep Searching Google news for The Census Taker had too many results. Add in the notable actor you mentioned, narrows it down. The second link says this is his comeback role. Searching for "Husbands, Wives, Money and Murder" shows 7 results that narrowed down to three if you add in the actors name to it. Most of it just mentions the video release. I do not believe a film like this could've come out at the theater without getting reviewed like other films do. The fact that many news sources don't allow free access to their archives, or don't archive film reviews from 26 years ago, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And you don't have to find it to prove that it got reviewed, if common sense indicates that surely it did. Dream Focus 23:55, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The video cassette release gets some coverage in the New York Times and elsewhere. Out of all the things released on video, they only list things that were at the theater and notable enough to be considered. Anyway, using Google book search I found this film listed in enough places to confirm its notability. Dream Focus 00:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:45, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

List of United States Navy supercarrier commanders (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Long term incomplete, orphaned, unsourced article with information that to the degree it is relevant to an encyclopedia, belongs in the entry for each individual ship. Carolina wren (talk) 17:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Consensus appears to be "keep" - although a more appropriate, non-BLP title would be preferred (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Donna Simpson (obese) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I've just declined the CSD attack page, as I don't think it is. Passes A7 as well.

Is she notable by wiki standards? Probably, but let's let the community decide. GedUK  17:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Arbitrarily0  02:14, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

List of exhibitions by Ólafur Elíasson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Out-of-date, unsourced, questionable importance of events. Trivial. Geschichte (talk) 17:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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  • Keep This is not the right way to tackle the issue. The past exhibitions are not "out of date", as they are historical records. You mean it has no exhibitions listed since 2007. That's a reason to add more, not delete the existing ones. "Unsourced" is a cause to add {{verify}} at the top of the page, at least in the first instance. "Questionable importance" and "trivial" is a personal view that is contradicted by widespread practice: good monographs of artists include exhaustive exhibition listings. This is a standard part of art history, and this list provides a valuable resource for those who wish to learn about the evolution of this artist's career. He has an international reputation. The list was originally split out from the main article per WP:SUMMARY. At the very least it should be merged back. This is not information that should simply vanish from what is meant to be a comprehensive reference work. Ty 19:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge excessive detail for anyone who is merely notable and not famous. In the absence of a book about him, he is not yet famous (sat least that's my minimum criterion for famous) I tend to be mergist on these lists--I think they are generally more useful as part of the article. DGG ( talk ) 04:47, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Umm... Take your time: Olafur Eliasson: Ólafur Elíasson, Madeleine Grynsztejn, Mieke Bal, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, Museum of Modern Art (New York, N.Y.), Dallas Museum of Art. (San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, 2007). ISBN 0500093407, ISBN 9780500093405. He also received massive exposure in the UK and internationally for The Weather Project, a prestigious Unilever commission in the Tate Modern Turbine Hall.. See Google News. Famous enough. Ty 07:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Stuart Atkinson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Completing nomination by IP . I am neutral. Jujutacular  17:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Reading Knights (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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UK university American football team with little or no claim of notability. University sports teams are only very rarely notable in the UK, and this team does not appear to be an exception to this rule. Pfainuk talk 16:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The Hangover Cure (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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speedy denied by non-author, but looks non-notable and spammy to me. delete UtherSRG (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Mooweex (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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speedy contested, author asserts notability but doesn't prove it. delete UtherSRG (talk) 16:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Kevin Brown (running back) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Hoax article, no sources to indicate that this person exists Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Raam Punjabi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Not notable. Fails BIO and GRG. Unverifiable. Improperly sourced. Possible hoax. 110.137.33.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been adding references to RPCE (an alleged Raam Punjabi Cartoon company) to numerous articles. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Northwest Front (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Organisation is non-notable, no secondary sources available. The NWF seems to be the dream of one nutter, as outlined in a few fiction books and nowhere else. Article is written like an advertisement/propaganda piece. Orpheus (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Over 1500 members and growing fast, we have our own forum and we are organizing fast now.. it's obvious the wiki page is being considered for deletion because we are not politically correct. Yet thousands of leftist wiki pages exist for the most obscure groups and topics. Leave the NWF page alone! (posted by Watcher) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.7.210 (talk) 20:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

What about adding http://www.toqonline.com/2010/03/northwest-homeland/ to one of the references? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.107.191.88 (talk) 00:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The Occidental Quarterly isn't really a reliable source. Orpheus (talk) 13:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, I've heard about it more than once before(not on Knowledge (XXG)) so isn't it a good thing for Knowledge (XXG) to have a page on it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.236.214.39 (talk) 17:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

very little notoriety what does that have to do with deletion, there is a lot of stuff on wikipedia which are not very well known. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forky1138 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete. * 16:48, 22 May 2010 HJ Mitchell (talk | contribs) deleted "Mar-Ian" ‎ (Mass removal of pages added by KinGin22- hoaxes) (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Mar-Ian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable "wrestler" lacking GHits and GNEW of substance. The article references are all unrelated to article subject. Should have been Speedy. ttonyb (talk) 15:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Gaku Homma (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Declined A7 nominee. Fails WP:BIO. SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Delia dennis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. PhilKnight (talk) 14:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. No clear consensus - default is to remain (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:22, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

X Motor Racing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This article may not meet WP:N with its current source coverage. It has listing entries in reliable sources such as Gamespot IGN GameZone GameTrailers or 1UP. There are other entries as well. However, none of these are reviews or say anything that establishes notability except directory entry with some screenshots/videos. The only descriptive/evaluative post is the very short RockPaperShotgun entry. I deliberately skip non-notable or unreliable sources. Currently, I do not see the notability of the game and suggest salting incubating it until a proper review surfaces.

I am not basing this judgement on the WP:GAMECRUFT and highly WP:PROMO tone of the content itself with indication of WP:COI. —  Hellknowz  ▎talk  14:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


H3llkn0wz, you want to delete this page because saw my changes at Game_development page and estimated it as advertisement. Could you substantiate where there ads or any honest string regarded as advertising? If you are going to delete this page then I suggest to delete all articles about games that don’t have review. Forza_man —Preceding undated comment added 16:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC).

Your addition to Game development article stemmed my curiosity of why you believed the game should be mentioned in the lead. I then read the main article, the history, and browsed the sources. I then asked on IRC if this seemed notable to others, and finally nominated it.
As I made it perfectly clear, this is not based on the promotional/gamerufty content. I do not claim that this is an advertisement, I said it has promotional tone, which I am happy to clean up and rephrase should the notability be established. I have no prejudice to userfy, incubate and recreate this article.
I am honestly very neutral on this game, but despite the amount of work that went into it, I prefer that clear notability is established by consensus first. If my intentions were pure deletion, I would not have listed all the reliable/notable sources above. —  Hellknowz  ▎talk  17:08, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


Then I say that any article has a bit promotional tone.
An article about C # in a sense, promotes C #, article about Java promotes Java etc.
This is a niche project and there are few similar projects in the world.
If you didn’t hear about this (or similar) project, it means that have not been spent $ 20 millions for advertisement, but this doesn’t mean that people don’t need such articles. —  Forza_man  ▎talk  17:08, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
This is a common, but invalid, argument. Many unadvertised independent games have received the level of coverage required for an article here. Marasmusine (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete or redirect to appropriate list. Directory entries and press releases abound, but no significant coverage. The Rock Paper Shotgun link is adequate for verification if we wish this to be at least placed in game list articles. Marasmusine (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Question. "The game is used in education, real motor sport and automotive industry for R&D by some teams, for example, McGill University, or ItalDesign." Can this be sourced? That would establish notability imo. —  Hellknowz  ▎talk  18:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
You can find these confirmations on the official forum. http://www.racedepartment.com/x-motor-racing/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandro sds (talk • contribs) 20:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Forums are not reliable sources. —  Hellknowz  ▎talk  21:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Specialized forums are reliable sources of information.
If you not agree, you can contact to McGill University and ItalDesign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandro sds (talk • contribs) 21:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Unless there is editorial oversight, forums are not reliable for Knowledge (XXG) as per policy.—  Hellknowz  ▎talk  21:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Weakening my "delete" !vote per the one source below discovered. If more reliable sources as such can be found, I'd be happy to change to "keep". –MuZemike 16:54, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

. –Alexandro sds —Preceding undated comment added 16:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC).

  • This seems like a pretty good source. Pages 18-20 being relevant. The article would then need to be reworked to represent the sources. Do you have any more magazine entries that are available? —  Hellknowz  ▎talk  16:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
As I know autosimsport.net is the only magazine dedicated to sim racing. Exchange of information occurs on the specialized forums. –Alexandro sds —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.241.245.139 (talk) 17:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete / Comment - The only source I found that seems to be useful has already been listed. The article has several poor references, including multiple YouTube videos, which are considered unreliable. I have tagged the article with current issues. Should the result come up as "No consensus" or "Keep" interested editors should improve the article in order to keep it from coming back up for another deletion discussion a few months down the road. --Teancum (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Absolutism. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:01, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Universal Absolutism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This is an essay and not an article -> NPOV, Style, no sources, and so on David Ludwig (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

well, yes, i do agree that the article creator could recreate an adequate article, but they would have to first learn how to write here, which at this point they dont know how at all. I would support a redirect as somewhat more appropriate (i apologize for often forgetting about the multifarious deletion types we have)Mercurywoodrose (talk) 23:24, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Leicester Longhorns (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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It is unusual for a British university sports team to meet our notability guidelines. This one does not appear to: it has no independent sources and all Google results appear to be related either to the team or its rivals. Pfainuk talk 12:32, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The Secret Life of the Cramps (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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According to the recording company this is not an album by The Cramps but a bootleg. I could not find a good source for that but the OTRS email looks authentic. As such I would say this fails WP:V at some level since I cannot verify from reliable independent sources whether it is legitimate or not. Guy (Help!) 12:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. The consensus is that there is insufficient independent references to this book to justify an article at this time -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 08:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Detroit: A city on the brink (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable e-book, does not meet WP:BK requirements. Joal Beal (talk) 12:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Jorge Galemire. Arbitrarily0  01:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Trelew (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No citations to reliable sources for any claims of notability. Redirect to article on member who's article already covers the band was contested. Band can be adequately covered there and there is no indication that the band itself will meet notability guidelines. RadioFan (talk) 11:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The lack of notable citations is due to the fact that all notable articles on the group written by the Uruguayan press are not available online. There have been articles by Brecha and La Diaria that both point to the notability of the group but are unfortunately not available online. Can someone please advise on whether these should be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slaterino (talk • contribs) 15:06, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Obviously online sources are much more helpful, as it is easier for other editors to check them, but other sources can be cited. However, I am not sure that suitable material is not available online: see my comment below. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge: Perhaps a nomination to merge would have been better than a brute redirect. As it stands, the article asserts notability. (Release of the record led to being featured in Uruguay newspapers such as Brecha, La Diaria and El Observador) Sourcing is a problem with a solution, not a cause for deletion. WP:ATD - BalthCat (talk) 19:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • On the contrary. If there are no sources then there is no evidence of satisfying notability under Knowledge (XXG)'s policies, and it must be deleted. As for "the article asserts notability", that is irrelevant: what matters is whether notability is demonstrated, not whether it is simply asserted. This may be a confusion with speedy deletion criterion A7, where any reasonably plausible assertion of importance is enough, but deletion by an AfD is a different matter. I am not prepared yet to say either "delete" or "keep", to allow time for sources to be found, but if at the time this discussion is closed no progress has been made it will have to be a "delete": the article does not substantiate claims of notability. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Everything I have read in WP policy has shown me that sourcing is a problem which may be solved. Weak sources imply to a reasonable person that there may be reliable sources. If there are NO sources, that's another thing... - BalthCat (talk) 05:56, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Since writing the above I have found two publications which I think may be good sources, but it will need someone with a knowledge of Spanish to assess them. They are http://www.trelewmusic.com/images/press/Brecha_20091030.pdf and http://www.trelewmusic.com/images/press/ladiaria_20090922_p.07.pdf. Can anyone check them and assess whether they are useful for establishing notability? The URLs indicate that they have been put online by Trelew, which suggests they are not independent sources. However, it looks to me as though they are copies of articles from independent sources. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I also find they appear on a http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/radiowales/sites/celticheartbeat/playlists/20090124.shtml for BBC Wales. Being played on a major radio station on the other side of the world from the band's home suggests some notability. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Okay, well maybe I can add a couple of things here. The article featured in Brecha is by Guilherme de Alencar Pinto, generally thought of as the most important music journalist in Uruguay. Ridiculously though the newspaper where he works, Brecha, has one of the worst websites in history and it's impossible to find anything he writes. He has published one book, Razones Locas, which you can find if you do an Amazon search. I understand Spanish and can say that the two articles in the large part talk about the Welsh influence of Karen Ann and the history of Jorge Galemire, and then go on to describe the songs, and so on. It's hard to pick out something that gives them notability. A translation of the last paragraph of the La Diaria article reads "A superficial look could reduce Trelew to a sympathetic experiment of adequate fusion to entertain a party celebrating San Patricio but for both those that hold in esteem the climate and melancholy of celtic music as well as the followers of Jorge Galemire - or a mixture of both, which at the end of the day is what is proposed - it is clear that this is something more, something difficult to define but easy to praise/enjoy." I think this at least shows that it is a mixture of the profile of Galemire with the form of celtic music which marks it as different to Galemire alone, and is why there is popularity in this group both in Uruguay and in celtic music fans worldwide, such as on BBC Radio Wales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slaterino (talk • contribs) 23:12, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (t) (c) 11:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge with Jorge Galemire. Reading the article, the most notable thing about the band is that Jorge Galemire is in it. One of the nine sentences in the article is about him and not the band at all. No one else in the band appears to be notable so merging this info into his article with a redirect seems like the most resonable option. Also it would benefit his article to have this info, better to have one thorough article than two stubs IMO. As for the BBC radio info, they would have to be in the rotation (appears they played it for one day) or the subject of a 30 minute piece to satisfy WP:BAND. J04n(talk page) 14:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge with Jorge Galemire. I think J04n's arguments are good. Despite my suggestions above that there might be notability of the band, it does not really seem to have been demonstrated, but the merger would keep what information is notable. JamesBWatson (talk) 16:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Sabzi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This article is in violation of WP:NOT - it's basically just two recipes. I've looked through Google books and the internet and I can't find anything which suggests that there's a particular dish called Sabzi - it just generically refers to vegetables or vegetable dishes - see . I therefore think there's a very strong case for deleting this article. Claritas (talk) 11:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:11, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Trivandrum Rubber Works (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Delete. Non-notable company. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. Relisting and semi-protecting to prevent all this SPA activity from happening. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Behdad Sami (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Fails WP:ATHLETE. delete UtherSRG (talk) 11:00, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment. The fact that he's the first Iranian to play professional BB raises his notability, IMO, but I don't know if it's enough. David V Houston (talk) 12:23, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: Doesn't the American Basketball Association (2000–present) count as "fully professional" for the purposes of wp:ATHLETE? In any cases, I see enough independent articles to probably make him notable under the GNG. Buddy431 (talk) 02:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep:Deleting this page makes no sense. By considering to delete this page its basically because you are trying to take away his accomplishments. Whether Behdad has played in the NBA yet or not does not matter. He was the first Iranian to ever play pro basketball regardless of what league, the wiki page doesnt claim him to be in the NBA, but being the first of anything deserves a wiki page. He happens to be the first in history to do it. Wiki needs to keep this page. He has also done a Gatorade reality show due to him being a top athlete in the world and because he was the first to play pro ball from his ethnicity. He has been featured in SLAM magazine along with 1000's of websites (google it), it would be a shame to delete this page. DO NOT DELETE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.237.199 (talk) 07:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: DO NOT DELETE. It makes no sense. You would not only be deleting Iranian Athletic history but you would be taking away all of Behdad's hard work and accomplishments that even got him the title of "worlds first pro iranian". How much proof do you need? No where in the wiki page does it take credit for him being in the NBA. Only credit and only title Behdad currently has is being the first pro iranian to play pro bball at any level in the USA. There are tons of articles about it all over google, SLAM Magazine and SLAM online covered him aswell, and this wikipedia page was made 3 years ago when Behdad started his pro career. It makes no sense why this is under review for deletion. DO NOT DELETE —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoopindreams (talk • contribs) 07:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC) — Hoopindreams (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Keep:Hi my name is Behdad Sami, (the real Behdad Sami), this is something I find disrespectful to be honest. It says my page is under review for deletion. That is a huge slap in my face for everything I have done to get to where I am today. This wikipedia page was made close to over 3 years ago. I have been playing pro basketball since then all around the world. I became the worlds first Iranian to ever play pro bball in the USA and since then I have been covered by 4 different magazines including the biggest bball magazine worldwide "SLAM Magazine" and over 1000 websites all over google. I have never claimed to play in the NBA and I have not played in the NBA YET, but as far as playing PRO basketball, i have played in the ABA and other leagues in the USA which were all PRO basketball leagues. If wikipedia decides to delete my page this will be a huge setback in my career and accomplishments. They would be deleting Iranian pro sports/basketball history. That doesnt make any sense to me. Ill be honest with you, I have a lot of haters, critics, and people that wish ill for me and this doesnt surprise me at all. To me this is just another hater trying to take something away from what I have done. I pray you do not let this happen and that all the reference articles and magazine articles are more than enough. I can send you over 1000 links to different websites that can confirm my accomplishments. If this page gets deleted, someone else will take credit for something they did not do. My friend Hamed Haddadi is noted for being the first Iranian to play in the NBA, which is correct, but even NBA.com has covered me talking about me (behdad sami) being the first to ever play PRO period! By deleting this page, it would leave false claims for another athlete and I do not appreciate that whatsoever. I have worked my butt off to get where I am. 6 hours a day for the last 7 years with sacrifices you cannot imagine of, and all to get me to where I am today and for someone to even mention my name to be considered for deletion is a sign of hate and false judgment on their part. DO NOT DELETE -Behdad Sami —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.237.199 (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
    One "vote" per person, please. Stifle (talk) 10:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: THIS IS BEHDAD SAMI AGAIN, WIKIPEDIA PLEASE READ THIS, HARRASMENT VIOLATION ON the user: UtherSRG (Stacey Robert Greenstein. UtherSRG is the one that sent this request for my page being deleted. After going to his page and getting his real name, I did a quick google of him and found his facebook. This is the same man that has been harrasing me on twitter (twitter.com/imbehdadsami) and it came to the point where i had twitter suspend my account and im in the process of making a new one. This man has something against me and I dont know what it is. I know in my profession of pro bball and being in the public eye, there will always be people that hate and dont like me for whatever reason and want to take away my accomplishments, but this is absord at this point. This man on twitter asked me specific questions about wikipedia and when i gave him info thinking he was a fan, he started harrasing me and saying things like "there is no more wiki" etc. One simple google search of my name will show you more than you need that I am the worlds first iranian to ever play pro bball in the usa, as mentioned before, if this wasnt enough proof, then the biggest bball magazine in the world "SLAM" wouldnt have covered on their print magazine and online site, aswell as Gatorade picking me and specifically saying "Behdad Sami, known as the worlds first iranian to ever play pro bball", and if there was any doubt after that, NBA.com has covered me in two articles where THEY even mention and credit me for being the first and all websites claim and give me credit for everything that has been written on my wikipedia. Check all the reference sources alone on the wiki page which is only 6, that should be more than enough. I'll have my rep put the two NBA.com articles aswell right now. Please dont listen to UtherSRG, this man has been harrasing me on social websites for the last couple days and he is not one to be listened to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.237.199 (talk) 08:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: Basketball Nobility from Knowledge (XXG): http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)

Basketball figures are presumed notable if they 1.Have appeared in one game in the American Basketball Association, Asociación de Clubs de Baloncesto, Euroleague, National Basketball Association, National Basketball League (Australia), National Basketball League (United States), Serie A, Women's National Basketball Association, or a similar major professional sports league. 2.Were selected in the first two rounds of the NBA Draft. 3.Have won an award, or led the league in a major statistical category of the Continental Basketball Association or NBA Development League --This is behdad sami again, not only have I played more than 1 game in the American Basketball Association, but I have played in many countries around the world. I have articles from the American basketball association (ABA) and the National Basketball Association (NBA) giving me full rights and full credit and noting me for being the worlds first iranian to ever play pro bball in the USA, along side with over 1000 websites, magazines, and tv shows. What more proof do you need?? Knowledge (XXG), everything I have said is the 100% truth and you can check google and/or the references in the wiki page. Please block user UtherSRG, he has already harrased me before on social networks, now he is trying to discredit my name, the proof is everywhere. Dont listen to one guy that happens to know nothing about me and for some strange reason has something agaisnt me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.237.199 (talk) 09:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Basketball figures are presumed notable if they 1.Have appeared in one game in the American Basketball Association, Asociación de Clubs de Baloncesto, Euroleague, National Basketball Association, National Basketball League (Australia), National Basketball League (United States), Serie A, Women's National Basketball Association, or a similar major professional sports league. 2.Were selected in the first two rounds of the NBA Draft. 3.Have won an award, or led the league in a major statistical category of the Continental Basketball Association or NBA Development League. I (Behdad Sami) have appeared in more than 1 game in the ABA as well as more than 20 games in Pro leagues around the world. NO WHERE DOES IT STATE ABA IS MINOR. They have put the ABA and NBA under ONE category with the conclusion of line 1 being "or a similar MAJOR pro sports league". Knowledge (XXG) considers the ABA as a major sports league which it should be. You claim you dont know much about sports, so why would you even take the time to do this? The ABA was the first major pro bball league. INfact, the ABA is the reason we have the NBA, they formed the NBA from the ABA. The ABA till this day is a major league, not as major as the NBA but still is full pro. Minor leagues would be leagues such as the IBL or SEBL. Im not going to sit here and have a edit war or another internet arguement with you. Please do not speak or reference to me anymore. We will let the admin handle this. Which should be in my favor being that the NBA itself claims me as the first pro iranian bball player playin in the USA, not the first semi pro. If the NBA claims it, then thats a done deal. There is no higher basketball league in the world. As stifle said, it is sufficient for notability. There are 8 ref links on the wikipedia page alone that cover everything claimed in the wikipedia page.--Hoopindreams (talk) 11:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep: I have interviewed Behdad Sami and covered him in an Iranian magazine I write for. All claims made are fact. Knowledge (XXG) should not delete this. Behdad was the first pro Iranian basketball player to play in the USA. Like he said himself, if the NBA claims it then there should be no more discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.14.69 (talk) 12:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Question: So is the current American Basketball Association (2000–present) fully professional or not? Does anyone know how much players are paid? Buddy431 (talk) 01:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: yes the current ABA is considered full professional. Players get paid different depending on the orginization. Average ABA salary is between $2000-5000 a month, plus per diem, traveling and housing. Some teams pay under $2000, but the teams that have been around for longer pay much better. Although they pay is no where near the NBA, since its still the same ABA from the 60's and 70's, its still considered under full pro basketball league. Semi-Pro leagues are leagues such as the IBL, SEBL, PBL, etc.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.14.98 (talk) 01:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The Bay of Noon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Delete. Non-notable book. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 10:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was speedy deleted per CSD G4: Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Zafira (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No indication that any of the notability criteria for pornographic actors and models are met. No award wins, single award nomination, no unique contributions to specific pornographic genres, no evidence of mention in mainstream media. Not quite straight-forward enough to be speedily deleted, but not notable enough to keep. GiftigerWunsch 10:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Also: If this does —mirabile dictu— survive AfD, it should still be renamed and Zafira redirected to the car. The car is more notable and more likely to be the subject of a search by several orders of magnitude. » scoops “5x5„ 22:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. Arbitrarily0  17:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Felixia Yeap (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Delete. Non-notable person. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 10:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the 'runner up' part in the article.There's been few interviews of Felixia lately in different radio station such as 988(Malaysia chinese radio station),Hitz fm(Malaysia english radio station) and fly fm(Malaysia english radio station) of what which i know...will try to get more sources...thank you. Dannychungsr (talk) 23:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete. Removing the 'runner up' part in the article does not establish notability and even removes relevant information. --Plantron (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Weak keep as 'Felixia Yeap' has been gaining more popularity in both Malaysia paper media and radio stations and some information should be kept for future references.More sources should be added though.Chinhoong88 (talk) 15:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was speedy noncontroversial deletion. - Vianello (Talk) 04:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Zafira (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Useless disambiguation page; first entry refers to an an article which does not exist; the links on both entries refer to the same thing. I tried to have this speedy deleted under G6, but was told that it didn't qualify because the creator disagreed by placing a hangon, making it controversial. GiftigerWunsch 09:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. When I started this AfD the Zafira article didn't exist, but now that it does I believe Opel Zafira is still by far the more notable article. GiftigerWunsch 10:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete and salt - UtherSRG (talk) 11:04, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Muhammad Abdel Rahman Al-Najmi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Not sure if this is legitimate. delete UtherSRG (talk) 08:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:30, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Kylene Soar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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A biography of a person notable only for one event. Some content could belong in Elections in New Zealand or one of its subpages. Mkativerata (talk) 08:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment I'd argue against merging, because this isn't even that relevant to the elections. According to the article, which is the only source, there wasn't any risk of the wrong name being printed in the electoral roll, and there wasn't any real election-related insecurity at all. Somebody filled out an online form that triggered an automated letter being sent - that could happen with any similar website (people filling out fake order forms in other people's names for instance). Utterly non-notable in my opinion. --bonadea contributions talk 12:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:20, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Joyce Elaine Roop (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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  • Delete. Only a single source, and does not meed WP:BIO. Chrisbrl88 (talk) 11:24, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: This single source (a news obituary in the Boston Globe) is good enough for me. wp:BIO says "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability". I consider this to be substantial enough depth of coverage to make this unnecessary. As Hamiltonstone points out, print sources may also exist (which could be used to improve the article), but I don't consider them necessary for establishing notability. Buddy431 (talk) 02:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete all except for Simon Ashley, which had no consensus but may be renominated at any time. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:15, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Marc Ramsbottom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non notable local councillor who has not held any national office and therefore fails notability criteria in WP:POLITICIAN. The one reference in the article doesn't cover him in any depth and falls under WP:NOTNEWS.

I am also nominating the following related pages as they are largely unsourced and cover local councillors who fail notability criteria in WP:POLITICIAN:

Simon Ashley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Abu Chowdhury (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
John Commons (politician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Jackie Pearcey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Valenciano (talk) 13:03, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
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  • Delete all - I'm not seeing sufficient evidence of notability for any of them. Yes, Simon Ashley has the strongest claim, but even he doesn't pass WP:BIO as far as I can tell. Being leader of the Liberal Democrats on Manchester council is not by itself grounds for notability. Robofish (talk) 23:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. There is no rough consensus to delete. Sourcing is still a concern, however, and will probably need to be improved to avoid another nomination in the future. Xymmax So let it be done 11:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Star Lite Motel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable lodging establishment that does not appear to have any architectural landmark status or colorful history. Google searching turns up nothing to confirm notability. Joal Beal (talk) 13:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep. Motel was known under different name, (Charley's Motel) and it is also now known under Starlite Motel. Motel neon sign design have designated architectural importance, i will add much more sources. It is under construction now. --Tadija 13:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
I added sources. Also, there are numerous guest impresion all over the web. It's not about Charley, it is about Contemporary Motel. --Tadija
Customer reviews, blogs, and photographs don't constitute reliable sources, and the mentions in Motel America and in the obituary of a former owner are hardly "significant coverage". Deor (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, it is clear that article was created few minutes before tagging for delete it is clear that it is work in progress. It is far from non-notable, i have no time now to add more sources. Articles with {{underconstruction}} tag should not be deleted until article is finished, as it is not attack page, or something like that. Also, as old and specific building, important in that part of Minnesota, it is better to use some way of preserving appropriate content. As far as i know, deleting should be last solution, not first. --Tadija 19:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - Coverage is scant, and not enough to establish notability. The claim of architecural importance of the sign is not substantiated. -- Whpq (talk) 16:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. The consensus is that the subject has not received sufficient coverage within the meaning of our notability guidelines to have an article at this time. I'm happy to userfy on request. Xymmax So let it be done 11:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Replicationdomain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Notability is asserted with references to journals and such at Talk:Replicationdomain. Some of these references are inaccessible (as content on the host sites are restricted to paid members only). Of those that are accessible, the sources appear to be written by the people who created Replicationdomain itself; eg http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2105/9/530 ("We created Replicationdomain …"). In fact, I'm not seeing any reliable, independent sources. Non-notable, surely? AGK 22:37, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment I have found the same as the nominator and have searched Google and Google News and been unable to find any evidence of notability. I've requested reliable sources from the creator / major editor. Baffle gab1978 (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
  • delete Not notable. The paper reporting this was Gilbert's in 2008. According to Scopus, it has been referred to only 3 times in the subsequent literature, all by Gilbert. No other papers use the term in the abstract or title. The other papers in the references used the term "replication domain" in a general sense, not referring to this database. PubMed gives similar results. Gilbert himself, though, is a major scientist we have, appropriately, an article on him--Scopus shows citation counts 244, 239,159 .... for his articles, h=29.(PubMed, btw, is a free database) DGG ( talk ) 04:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per DGG (wow).Pcap ping 14:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
  • My apologies, I didn't realize that most of the references I cited require pay for access. At FSU access to those are free. To sum up: ReplicationDomain is a free online database resource for storing, sharing and visualizing DNA replication timing and transcription data, as well as other numerical epigenetic data types. There are 28 registered scientists from America to Britain to Israel using the site to store, share and visualize epigenetic data, more are expected in near future. ReplicationDomain is linked from the NIH website at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genome/guide/mouse/ (Under the Expression Resources at the bottom right) and the Mouse Genome Informatics website at http://www.informatics.jax.org/genes.shtml (Under the Other Links tab). ReplicationDomain is funded by a grant from NIH and currently stores 112,019,466 data points of epigenetic data from multiple cell lines of 3 different species. Alexs99
  • Also ReplicationDomain is linked at http://www.oridb.org/links.php (5th link down) and http://www.epigenome-noe.net/resources/scilinks.php (under Chromatin). At this point I've demonstrated that the ReplicationDomain database is cited in papers in 8 respected scientific journals, 2 of which are by authors not related to FSU (I can't help that most scientific journals require subscription). I have shown that ReplicationDomain is linked to by major institutions such as NIH, Epigenome NoE and Mouse Genome Informatics. How is this not "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"? I've listed the $1.1 million NIH grant that funds ReplicationDomain. At this point I might point out that Mouse Genome Informatics has a Knowledge (XXG) page with no references.Alexs99 14:25, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The link http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Replicationdomain%22 shows papers not authored by anyone related to ReplicationDomain that cite ReplicationDomain. Alexs99 —Preceding undated comment added 15:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC).
  • Keep per non-CoI references found above. David V Houston (talk) 13:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
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  • Comment The G Scholar link cited by Alexa above,shows only 8 papers total, of which only CJ Pink & LD Hurst in Molecular Biology and Evolution, 2009, is by unrelated people citing this work. That's one independent paper only, not the claimed "papers" The other 7 papers are all by the developers. The standards for academic notability are judged by the subject field--if this were work in some particularly obscure esoteric area of theology in a little-known language, one outside paper would still be at most borderline significant. But this is mainstream molecular biology, and a count like that is not just lack of evidence of notability, but evidence of non-notability. A grant to develop something is not proof of notability--the proof is when what gets actually developed becomes notable-- sometimes this happens, sometimes it does not happen. At present, the status is like that of an unexploited patent. They have prepared a large database. The question now is whether it will become used. I hope it will, for it sounds interesting, but hope does not translate into an article DGG ( talk ) 18:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

European In Your Pants Tour (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Another non notable concert tour. Fails WP:MUSIC and WP:GNG. Nouse4aname (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Todd Richmond (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Promotional article, likely autobiography. This was previously deleted after I prodded what was basically a resume. It's back, rewritten but still uncited and advertorial -- surprise surprise! ˉˉ╦╩ 05:19, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was - Delete - Peripitus (Talk) 12:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Satan Vs God (2010 Movie) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Completing nomination for IP user. I am neutral. From talk page... Student film with no indication of notability. Contested prod. 76.102.27.141 (talk) 05:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Ron Ritzman (talk) 05:17, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:57, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Railway prices and costs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Previously speedied at G11, now totally lacking in any sources. delete UtherSRG (talk) 04:38, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Rob Redding#The Washington Continent. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Washington Continent (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Previously speedied as copyvio. Looks cleaned up now, but looks NN via lack of WP:V and WP:RS. delete UtherSRG (talk) 04:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. There is no consensus whether the article should be kept or merged. But in any case, the original research must be removed. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:54, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Knowledge (XXG) Globe Logo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Procedural nomination, per Knowledge (XXG):Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Knowledge (XXG) Globe Logo. Graham87 04:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment: Note that the article was moved to the Knowledge (XXG) namespace, then its original creator, Challisrussia (talk · contribs) moved it to the article namespace twice by ]cut and pasting its content. I undid the first cut-and-paste moved, but history merged the page after the second one, since the user had made substantial edits to the page. Graham87 04:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • My main problem with this article is the absolute lack of reliable, published sources. This is made more of an issue by the fact that the article appears to be a series of personal observations about the Knowledge (XXG) logo, particularly its 'symbolism' in relation to Uncyclopedia (one of the three 'symbolism' paragraphs is about its symbolism), other wiki-sites, and the immigration policies of Canada and the United States of America. There may be scope for such an article, but for this to be saved, its going to need verifiable content from at least one reliable source discussing the logo in detail. -- saberwyn 06:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The big problem here is that while projectspace articles can either elide references altogether or use primary sources from WikiMedia, we have a higher standard for articlespace. The logo is not so iconic, so far as I can see, that it's had significant coverage outside of WM sources. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. This debate was originally at Knowledge (XXG):Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Knowledge (XXG) Globe Logo. The comments there should be transcluded here as some of them are still relevant. The closing admin can decide whether or not the comments made there are still applicable. SpinningSpark 10:02, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment, I have my doubts about this article's notability. There might have been mentions of it in some reliable, published sources, but probably always in connection with Knowledge (XXG). --The Evil IP address (talk) 11:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. Anything notable about the logo can go in the Knowledge (XXG) article, but the content here is mostly original research. Powers 14:08, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. I just noticed this AfD. I had placed a warning on this user's page on another issue, and was expecting to vote to delete this page. However, in fairness, I have to vote "keep." It's a terrible article, and I agree that it is mostly original research, and is written poorly. However, the globe logo is widely duplicated and I can see why it may warrant an article. This article should be kept "only" if proper sourcing can be found. If not, it should be nominated again and deleted. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: The article is currently terrible, but the logo's certainly well known, and there appear to be enough reliable sources to establish notability and write a short, well sourced article. I.e. this NYT article. We should also give a soft redirect/link to wp:Knowledge (XXG) logos. Buddy431 (talk) 03:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
    • But is there anyone willing to make the necessary improvements, or will the article just sit here in its current terrible state? Powers 13:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
      • AFD is not cleanup: the topic is clearly notable, so the article can stay. If you don't like it, fix it yourself. Buddy431 (talk) 16:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
        • Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the notable information in a parent article until there is enough high-quality, sourced writing to split out? Powers 17:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
          • Maybe. I believe that it would be better to have an article on a notable topic, even a poor one, rather than none at all. There's room for reasonable disagreement about the issue. Buddy431 (talk) 01:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep The nomination does not provide a reason to delete this notable topic and so there is no case to answer. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
    • That's because it's a procedural nomination, one started because the original nomination was (newly) in the wrong spot. Powers 13:10, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • That other nomination was based on the idea that there shouldn't be two such pages in project space. This makes no sense as a reason to delete here, where the article is in article space. There is no case to answer. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:48, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • No, I've looked again at the other discussion and the nomination here makes no sense. We should not have to guess what the reasons for deletion are supposed to be and the matter is sufficiently confusing that a clear summary is required in the nomination. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree, there was no reason for it to be here, simply because it was discussed there. The original nomination's reason "We don't need two project-space articles on the same topic." is not valid here, it now in main article space, and no other article has the same information, in main space. Dream Focus 01:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The original creator moved the page by cut and paste from the Knowledge (XXG) namespace to the main namespace several times. After the third or fourth time, I got sick of cleaning up after the cut-and-paste moves, so I decided to move the discussion from MFD to AFD. In hindsight it would probably have been better to just protect the main namespace redirect. Graham87 01:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • When editors edit the Knowledge (XXG) article, they are told "This page is 116 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See Knowledge (XXG):Article size". So, that policy indicates that we should not be merging, we should be splitting that article into to more managable pieces such as this. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:47, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

McDojo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Original AFD nomination from eight months ago by User:Crotalus horridus was as follows: "This article fails to meet verifiability requirements and also fails to meet inclusion guidelines for neologisms. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of the article constitutes original research. There are currently 5 citations, but three of them (#2, #4, and #5) do not even mention the term at all. The other two contain passing mentions. A Toronto Star article has the following sentence: "The sheer number of fight schools in Toronto promising fast and furious training has also given rise to a fresh, if not flattering, moniker: McDojos." That's it. No further descriptions of the neologism, how it arose, how it is used, etc. The same is true of the Cairns Sun reference, which contains a quote in which a martial arts teacher denies his school is a McDojo. Again, that's it. We can't build an article on this slender reed of sourcing. There's just nothing reliable and verifiable to say. The real purpose of this article is to inflate the prominence and reputation of marginal web sites. It's bullshidocruft and bullshidospam. If we limited the article to verifiable information it would literally consist of about 2 sentences."

Since then, the article has not been improved, but rather, the only thing that has changed is the re-addition and re-removal of the most egregious of the original research. Thus I contend that despite the "keep" result of the previous AFD, the article fails to meet notability for neologisms, nor is the term significantly covered in reliable sources. Thus it's time to put this unsalvagable article out of its misery once and for all. SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Footytube (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Does not appear to have been covered in any detail in any reliable secondary sources. Does not seem to meet WP:N. Leivick (talk) 02:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I am new to wikipedia and this is my first article. I believe that pretty much everything in the article had been referenced well from sources on the internet - I used Quantcast and Alexa for the site stats and linked.in and the about page to get the staff data. There are references to The Guardian and The Daily Telegraph, two reputable sources that mention the site (the latter having included the site in their Top 25 football websites of 2009, where it came 16th on the list). The trivia perhaps needs some work - I got this mostly from the forums on the site; having spent the last 2 years as a member I am pretty knowledgeable on the behind the scenes stuff there. Any advice you can give as to how I can improve these references would be most appreciated! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charliebaudry (talk • contribs) 04:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:58, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Rusty Mike American Sports (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I found 9 Ghits for this show. Probably could be mentioned in Rusty Mike Radio, but see Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Rusty Mike Radio. —fetch·comms 01:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:57, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Rusty Mike Radio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Unsourced, cannot find reliable sources to show notability. —fetch·comms 01:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:39, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Armpit fetishism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No reliable sources, can not verifiable nor can notability be established. Suggest merge with sexual fetishism, if reliable sources can be found. Stillwaterising (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Addition: does not meet WP:GNG or WP:V guidelines. - Stillwaterising (talk) 06:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. —Stillwaterising (talk) 01:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - I can't help but notice that in your editing this article you removed an image which, iirc, you argued for deletion of on Commons, and which one reason why I denied said deletion was due to it being in use. As someone who does find armpits sexy, I am biased, but I believe this fetish is notable - just as notable and common as a myriad other fetishes we have articles for. I think references can be found, there are certainly a fair few fetish videos on this subject, although there is some overlap with the hirsute fetish. -mattbuck (Talk) 02:21, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge "Fetishism" would seem to cover it, would it not? Carrite (talk) 03:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. The article needs to be improved - basically, it needs to be written, there isn't really much there. However, I feel confidant that this likely is a real fetish and the material is out there. If the subject is notable, even the fact that the article is (currently) poor is not (generally) a reason for deletion. Herostratus (talk) 03:53, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep google book search shows about 300 mentions, many of them significant. I agree it just needs to be expanded from a stub. subject is clearly notable. as an example, i have no doubt that voluminous literature exists showing that shaved armpits in women in western culture amounts to a form of fetishism. The fact that body scent is highly concentrated there, and that traditionally, scent is one of the most powerful attractants, actually points to this being probably one of the most "rational" fetishes one can imagine. Yukio Mishimas use of the fetish has been written about in a psychoanalytic journal, ], though we cant link to it as its behind a subscription wall, its a good example (found using google scholar).Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - I looked for sources before I started this Afd. I found numerous photo galleries, but nothing that would qualify under reliable source guidelines. It is irresponsible as an encyclopedia to present information without any supporting documentation. This topic needs to be developed within the time frame of this Afd or relevant information can be merged elsewhere. When the section on "armpit fetishism" gets to the point where it is ready for a full article, this page can then be recreated. This is normal practice in other projects. - Stillwaterising (talk) 09:31, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge into either fetishism or axillary intercourse. Chrisbrl88 (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: AFD is not cleanup (that would make a good essay...). A Google Book search shows plenty of non-trivial references; clearly notable under GNG. Buddy431 (talk) 03:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 01:57, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Pra kradesh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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A makeshift dab page for which I find nothing on Google for any of the subjects. —fetch·comms 01:19, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. — Scientizzle 14:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Oktay Surucu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Nearly no coverage at all from Google. A few brief mentions in gScholar as well, but nothing I found passed WP:PROF. —fetch·comms 00:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Did you mean David? Gene doesn't seem to have done anything but listed this on WP:DELSORT. —fetch·comms 02:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, sorry about that :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:46, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Marrua (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Hard to understand, but I cannot find much evidence of notability or many good sources on Google. —fetch·comms 00:37, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • The lack of ability to find info might have been because of the bad page name. The actual vehicle name seems to be Agrale Marruá, which turns up a fair bit of information - including trans-wiki links.
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The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:35, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Narayangad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Nothing to indicate that this fort is by itself notable, could be merged with Pune. —fetch·comms 00:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. — Scientizzle 14:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Maria Miroiu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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An actress who is apparently "well-known" for a minor role. Lacks significant coverage in reliable sources. And no, IMDB is not a reliable source. Mkativerata (talk) 00:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Despite similarities between the supposed tradition and the court case, there is no actual evidence of a connection. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Passing out with shoes on (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No reliable sources support the notability of this topic. The first source is a facetious "College rules" handbook, and the second source refers to a court case in which a defendant was laying in a bed pretending to be asleep (not passed out). OhNoitsJamie 00:17, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete - as original research -- Whpq (talk) 19:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
  • There are two books cited. Both are available on google books, if you would like to verify. I think the one of them has been inaccurately described as "facetious". There may be a touch of levity in describing these as "rules", but all of the "rules" describe actual, bona fide traditions. These reliable sources make this not original research. Savidan 23:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Comment I read both sources. The "rules" writeup was a writer's arbitrary set of rules, not part of any unified tradition. As I said before, the second source only mentions a defendant who still had his shoes on and was pretending to be asleep (not passed out), which really has nothing to do with the topic of this article. OhNoitsJamie 23:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
There are two books and the legal case. Perhaps I haven't made it clear enough, but whether the defendant was actually awake/passed out/asleep was a subject of dispute in the case. Savidan 02:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The article is about two different things; college students getting drunk and passing out, and a single court case where whether or not a subject was asleep played a role in the case; a case that was hardly a landmark, at that. I.e., you're taking a phrase that's gotten some passing mention in jocular "College life guides" and tying that into a court case that really has nothing to do with the former. Yes, you have three sources, but those sources fail to establish that this is a singular, notable concept versus a phrase that's figured into a couple of contexts. (Here's the Google books link for the College 101 source, and here are the two paragraphs from the case that mention the word "shoes" (neither of which is in the summary of the case). OhNoitsJamie 02:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete it's WP:SYNTH to assert any sort of relationship between college-age drunken jackassery and a court case in which the the wearing of shoes was merely a bit of evidence against the establishment of a particular legal standing. As a phenomenon, these two subjects are unrelated and neither hold great encyclopedic value. The mentions in the two books is trivial. — Scientizzle 14:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete, not notable. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Seventh Sojourn. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The Land of Make-Believe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article uncited and subject seems unnotable as merely an album track.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 23:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment - a lack of citations is not a reason for deletion. Instead, the community should be encouraged to expand the article through the use of an edit tag, which I will add. There should be a good faith attempt to find sources before nominating an article for deletion because it has no sources. See WP:DEMOLISH and related articles. Also, the nominator needs to say more than "seems unnotable." Why? See WP:JNN. DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 19:58, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Comment: According to WikiProject:Songs, notability for articles on songs should meet the following...
Most songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for the songwriter, a prominent album or for the artist who prominently performed the song. Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable.
As far as I can see, this song meets none of these crieria.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 00:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was merge to James R. Bath. Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/James R. Bath was closed "keep" (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Southwest Airport Services (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No notability. Fails WP:CORP. No consensus on the last AfD when the notability was for overcharging the government. If that establishes notability then every government contractor is notable. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

James R. Bath (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Scandal-mongering BLP about a Bush associate whose weak claim to notoriety rests in stale six year old accusations that didn't apparently amount to much. See also Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Southwest Airport Services (2nd nomination). Mangoe (talk) 02:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

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Keep:Google books are good enough for me, as is time. Could use some immediate improvement (BLP, and all), but definitely notable. Buddy431 (talk) 03:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep Books/Time looks like enough. Definitely needs some improvement, but notable enough.--Joe Decker (talk) 05:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Nothing says we have to use sources that are freely available online. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Jake Blalock (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Career minor-leaguer who is currently playing in Italy. He hasn't played on any major teams, and it's doubtful he ever will. Being the brother of a notable major leaguer is definitely not enough. Muboshgu (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment Baseball America is subscription only, which I believe makes it useless in this context. I don't believe that simply having a profile done on anybody, much less a high school baseball player, is enough to merit notability. --Muboshgu (talk) 19:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
  • It's subscription-only because it's reprinted from a for-profit book they publish annually. I provided the link as a convenience, in case any subscribers reading the AFD wanted to verify it. Since you evidently don't subscribe, you should probably go and look for a paper copy of the book so that you can do so, before you start making blanket statements about its value. -Hit bull, win steak 00:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. WP:NPASR. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:27, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Keel (software) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Contested prod. Non-notable software project. This search yields only 44 results, a lot of which relate to a single conference where the project was introduced. Removing that from the search yields only 13 results. Searching Google Scholar for the title of the original paper yields only 39 hits. So, fails WP:N andy (talk) 14:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

But it doesn't mean it's notable. Delete. Kubek15 17:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
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  • Week keep. There are several scholar references (although many of them are from research work from the software's creators). On the negative side the software's site seems to be down (at least at the moment).Pxtreme75 (talk) 10:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Anchor pylon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Tagged as unreferenced since December, and still no references added. GiftigerWunsch 12:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

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Keep or Merge to Electricity pylon. Appears to have enough sources available to meet notability requirements, but there's not really a point in having a separate article right now. Buddy431 (talk) 03:45, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. WP:NPASR. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:09, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Baudline (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Despite the impressive reference list recently added to the article, this software lacks in-depth coverage in reliable sources. The fact that they offer their binaries for free, and charge for GPL code would raise a stink for any notable software, but this one flies under the radar, because, well, it's not notable. All references are either random personal web pages or passing mentions. Did I mention the page was created by User:Baudline? Pcap ping 08:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure what free binaries, charging for GPL code, and "raising a stink" have to do with software notability? A Google scholar search returns 12 hits. I believe the notability requirement is meet by two of the references mentioned on the Talk:Baudline page. The first is inclusion on FreshPorts which is the FreeBSD software port distribution system. The second is the the "Acoustic cryptanalysis" article in which Adi Shamir, who happens to be the S in RSA, based an entire research project on baudline. Audiocow (talk) 20:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
    • I disagree. Those are merely passing mentions. The Shamir paper has some screenshots which use baudline, and a brief acknowledgment at the end of the paper, while the paper isn't about baudline (obviously). "Based an entire research project on baudline" is puffery. 21:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
      • Passing mentions? FreeBSD's FreshPorts is the equivalent of what apt-get is to Debian and yum is to Redhat. They are independently reviewed and maintained software repositories. And puffery? The only software the Shamir "Acoustic cryptanalysis" project used was baudline as a signal analysis tool and GnuPG as a CPU instruction noise maker. Audiocow (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
        • Software being included in repositories is not an accepted inclusion criteria in Knowledge (XXG). Nor is being used by someone famous a card for inclusion. Pcap ping 23:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
          • I don't think you understand. These software repositories are not like Freshmeat, Tucows, and SourceForge where anyone can generate an entry or create content. FreshPorts, root apt-get, and yum are the "official" repositories for their respective distributions. They have an independent editorial team that makes the exclusive decisions on what to add and what to say. This is very similar to how a magazine or newspaper operates. About the Shamir paper, it is not just some famous person saying something, this is "published" research that has many citations. Audiocow (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
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  • Delete Some of the reference links are dead. Passing reference in scholarly papers--they use the software, but the papers are not about the software. The Shamir paper is similar, and neither his notability nor the notability of the article confer notability to the tools he uses. Inclusion in a linux distro's official software repository does not confer notability, ports are added by volunteers, see . I find that particular argument curious, however, since freshports does not in fact distribute baudline due to licensing issues, see . Also, just for clarity, GPL generally refers to Gnu Public License, and this ain't GPL code. --Nuujinn (talk) 16:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
    • I just checked and updated the access dates for all of the reference links. Found two dead links and was able to find a fix for one of them. About ports being added by volunteers , here is a quote "Where do ports come from? Ports are created by other FreeBSD volunteers, just like you and just like the creators of FreshPorts. The FreshPorts team does not create ports; we just tell you about the latest changes. The FreeBSD Ports team creates, maintains, and upgrades the ports." This quote doesn't make any sense, everybody creates them but who adds them? So is there or is there not any editorial control at FreshPorts? Audiocow (talk) 19:13, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't mean to be pointy, but if you don't know how they work, should you have claimed "They have an independent editorial team that makes the exclusive decisions on what to add and what to say"? But to answer your question, no, there is apparently no editorial review at FreshPorts, they seem to be programmatically tracking the tree over at FreeBSD ports, when a new version of a port is committed, FreshPorts picks that up and notifies users who subscribe to that service. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but that is how I thought FreshPorts operated. As I mentioned, their FAQ contradicts itself so it's not entirely clear. This seems to suggest that baudline is an "official" FreeBSD port. I have a hard time believing that they let just anybody add stuff to their "official" tree. Audiocow (talk) 20:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
They don't, but inclusion wouldn't be based on anything akin to editorial review. There are over 20K packages in FreeBSD's ports project. The purpose of a ports project is to make software easy to install, so if you wanted to write a port, you could submit it, and if it worked, and didn't break anything, it would almost certainly be included. The way that's usually managed is with a stable tree with all "known good" packages, and an unstable or development tree, in this case "Current". --Nuujinn (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I just added a couple SETI references and over at the Talk:Baudline page I added a list of Wikipedian images that were created with baudline. The more I search the more references I find. Some are in scholarly papers while others are in blogs and personal pages. None of these references meet the notability high-bar of being a featured article in a major magazine or newspaper but that isn't surprising since baudline only runs on the fringe FreeBSD, Linux, and Solaris operating systems. So for notability purposes; no major coverage but a very large number of "lesser" references. This is more than what 80% of Knowledge (XXG) software articles have. Audiocow (talk) 19:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment, blogs are not considered reliable sources, and checking through the references I see no articles providing significant coverage of the baudline. Images created by baudline do not establish notability. Other stuff exists--I'm not sure your 80% figure is accurately, but we are only concerned with this article in this discussion. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to California gubernatorial election, 2010. (non-admin closure) Off2riorob (talk) 22:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Richard William Aguirre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable politician; minor candidate for Democratic nomination for California governor; has never held office. --MelanieN (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S. This article should be tagged as of interest to California and to politicians, but I don't know how to do that. Thank you! --MelanieN (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Note: This is the second nomination. The first result was: delete, non-notable. A number of references have been added since then, but the only WP:Reliable sources are the local TV reports (about his announcement that he is running). The Sacramento Bee article gives him one sentence; the SFGate article (which may be an SFGate blog, I can't tell) is a brief item about how Aguirre is following presumed nominee Jerry Brown around to shout debate challenges; the Union-Tribune reference is actually a U-T blog; the OB Rag and Sacramento News and Review are blogs; and the Peninsula Beacon is a small, free weekly community paper. --MelanieN (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
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  • Comment I see the author has chosen to restore to the article several references I had deleted. Those include the candidate's twitter, facebook and youtube sites; a duplicate link to the New York Times article (which is about another candidate and mentions Aguirre only in passing); and a link to "politicker" which does not seem to mention the candidate at all. I will leave them, since the author is new to Knowledge (XXG) and doesn't understand about WP:reliable sources, and let people make their own judgments. --MelanieN (talk) 13:56, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
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Delete no coverage in third party sources independent of the election. Fails WP:POLITICIAN. Valenciano (talk) 18:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 13:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

United Liberal Associations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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The prod was removed. A non-notable organization of organizations. Joe Chill (talk) 02:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Listed for 20 days with no arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Tommy Stewart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Unsourced since 2007. No significant coverage found at reliable sources, only very minor mentions -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 08:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

With very little effort, I found an article from Stewart's Fuel era covering some details from his career. Looks reliable to me. If I take the time to add it as reference, is it enough? I'd say keep. --Sk4170 (talk) 22:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Without knowing the source, I can't really comment! Also, without knowinh what parts of the article it verifies, I can't comment. However, I have always been open to persuasion (my aim is not to remove articles unless they can't be reliably sourced - if you look at my recent contributions, you'll see quite a few articles which also were unreferenced since 2007, which I found reliable sources for!) - give more information, and then I (and other editors) can make a reasoned response -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 22:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I also notice that almost all of your edits are about Stewart or the bands he was involved in - do you have a potential conflict of interest here? -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 22:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I've been on Knowledge (XXG) for a little while, first as anonymous user, trying to learn little by little how to do this and then, wanting to start a new article, signed up. I've been reading and editing some articles which interest me first and foremost as a fan of music, of certain artists and bands. I believe that's how most less active wiki contributors are involved. After reading about Knowledge (XXG):COI - which is all new information to me, as so many of Knowledge (XXG) policies still are - I can't see myself as having conflict of interest regarding Stewart's article. Unless being a fan of a band where he played once can be counted as such. Here's a link to the reference I mentioned: http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/pullenmyblog/2007/10/flints_tommy_stewart_fires_up_reengineered_fuel.html. I won't be using it in the article until this question of deletion is solved. --Sk4170 (talk) 23:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I was sure that I'd already replied, but obviously I didn't! Firstly, from what you have said, you indeed do not have a conflict of interest - I thought it was worth mentioning though, as often people who edit articles do! I have removed the single-purpose account tag that I had previously used here, as it is no longer appropriate. That source would count as a reliable source, as the Flint Journal is a recognised paper, and Doug Pullen is one of their journalists. Feel free to use it as a citation (even during the duration of this discussion) - just remember that any opinions mentioned there (especially those of Stewart himself) should not be used, just the facts! -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 12:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Alright, thank you! I took some time to edit the article and added a few references, but it still needs more editing and sources. --Sk4170 (talk) 00:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 13:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Roger Solari (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Unsourced since 2007; Only reference I could find was in a list of band members with his brother, who does not have an article either. No other reliable sources found, does not meet WP:MUSICBIO. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 08:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 13:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

(first post)I listened to a Youtube video by Bill Whittle. I wanted to know something about his background to help form my opinions of him and what he was saying . Unfortunately, Wiki decided to take down the article, in effect, censor it, and deny that information to me. I object very strongly.

(another post) I too found it wrong to censor the biography on Bill Whittle. You have other well known people included, and I find your objection to including Bill Whittle a very weak argument.

(another post) 11/26/12 I go to Knowledge (XXG) for information and am interested in information about Bill Whittle, disappointed to find it deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.68.150.42 (talk) 16:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Bill Whittle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Notability concerns: Subject doesn't seem to meet criteria for inclusion described in Knowledge (XXG):Notability, specifically WP:SIGCOV. Being a blogger, author, or host of a non-notable program does not necessarily make a person notable. Article prod was removed with the rationale "Whittle isn't just a normal blogger. PajamasMedia is a multi-million dollar investment, and Whittle is no small part of the production." However, being part of a multimillion dollar investment does not make a blogger notable. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

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