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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  00:40, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Tim Urban (musician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I am nominating this article for deletion because it fails WP:GNG. Finalists on British talent shows are not inherently notable (we even had debates about runners-up JLS and Olly Murs in The X Factor) so why is it any different for American Idol.

The following articles should also be redirected or deleted if notability cannot be established:

(03md 23:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose this listing of a mass AfD. The notability of each of these individuals needs to be assessed separately as they may be notable for things other than their appearance on American Idol. This is not an appropriate use of group nomination. - DustFormsWords (talk) 09:44, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose listing of a mass AfD. You cannot simply list them, you actually need to go through and put AfD notices on each of the pages. Within the past ten days, Siobhan Magnus, Katie Stevens and Lacey Brown each went through an AfD and they were all closed as Keep. Also Paige Miles easily has enough reliable sources to pass WP:GNG. The other three need more sources like Tim Urban. Aspects (talk) 12:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Tim Urban article - He's getting press coverage in reliable sources like this and this. This is not the place to discuss the other articles. If you have a problem with them, nominate them separately. PDCook (talk) 13:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I was just trying to draw attention to other similar articles. My point is that an article JLS, The X Factor runners-up in 2008, was nominated for deletion. In American Idol it seems that contestants only have to reach the final 12 to become notable. Olly Murs, Jamie Archer, Rikki Loney etc. have all got RS but the articles would automatically be redirected if created. 03md 21:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
And what, this is tit-for-tat? My show's contestants were nominated for deletion so now I'll nominate the contestants on your show? Or is it simply another case of Americentrism that an American show's contestants don't get cited for deletion but an English show's contestants do? Whatever case, you don't have a leg to stand on re: WP:MUSIC. I vote Keep. SchutteGod (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete Benami and Bowersox; keep rest. Reviewing the articles, those are the only two that clearly fail WP:GNG. —C.Fred (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep all. Pretty much all AI finalists get heavy press coverage, even (ugh) Tim Urban. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep all per precedent. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando (talk) 03:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep all. I thought we went through this last season with a mass deletion attempt. I will never figure out why there seem to be users just waiting for these articles to be created so they can put them up for deletion. Like the show or not, these people are notable due to heavy coverage of themselves and of the show they are on. Hey if it's 9 months from now and these folks have done nothing outside of the show and the tour, then let's revisit this. But right now its very pre-mature. I myself am tired of going through this literally every season. Outside of Alexis Grace, the articles are always kept due to the show being as notable as it is and the contestants on it being notable. As for the mentioning of the X-Factor contestants, we can't really compare series. It's a case by case basis. --User:Woohookitty 10:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep all — per User:Woohookitty. If they don't seem to be highly in the media a few months after the season is over, then this should be taken into consideration again. But not right now. EnDaLeCoMpLeX (talk) 00:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 04:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Diaries 1969–1979: The Python Years - Michael Palin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Original research and information that should be in the infobox. Gosox(55) 22:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

It will need moving, the title's wrong, but that's best done when the Afd is closed. Edgepedia (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Scott Fisk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Appears to fail WP:ACADEMIC. Text also appears to be copyvio of samford faculty profile. On his own website several national awards are listed however google only knows about them in relation to this individual. Claims for work appearing on major tv networks do not seem to be referenced anywhere. noq (talk) 21:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The Bar Exam 3 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Fails WP:MUSIC. Mixtapes are not notable without substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. SummerPhD (talk) 21:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 04:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Give Us Clean Hands (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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DAB page for two non-notable songs. Drmies (talk) 21:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment - Ah hah! Found the relevant policies:
  • MOS:DAB#Individual_entries - "Every entry must have a link, and the link should be the first word or phrase in each entry."
  • MOS:DABMENTION - "If a topic does not have an article of its own, but is mentioned within another article, then a link to that article should be included. In this case, the link does not start the line, but it should still be the only blue wikilink." - DustFormsWords (talk) 09:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Dust. However, that broad reading of DABMENTION would imply that every single possible word or combination thereof should warrant a redirect. But DABMENTION speaks of "topic"--and I wouldn't call this a topic. These are song titles, not topics, and I maintain they are non-notable songs. Drmies (talk) 22:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  00:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Milliamp (company) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This article was likely created for publicity as a result of this paid editing request on elance dot com. The company itself fails WP:N and WP:ORG with only some passing mentions in the news with no significant analysis. Knowledge (XXG) is not a repository for spam and it is not to be used for promotion. ThemFromSpace 21:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I guess the NY Times article you said it doesn't mention the company is the one from 2007. The company is mentioned there as ipodjuice, In the History section of the article it is pointed out that the company (although named Milliamp from the very beginning) was known almost exclusively as ipodjuice between 2005-2009. This should be taken into consideration when assessing the notability, they should be taken into consideration sources for both Milliamp and ipodjuice brands. Milliamp is known to the public only for about a year. Dominick.j.bolden (talk) 18:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  01:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Bolan's Rock Shrine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I'm not really sure if this article is hoax or valid. It looks fishy to me. bender235 (talk) 20:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Weak delete Not a hoax, but almost completely devoid of decent sources. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 20:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Keep if cleaned up and sourced with the sources Shoessss dug up. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 20:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep – I can see this as a standalone article, versus a Merge/Redirect to Marc Bolan. It has generated a press on its own and has been officially recognized as the Marc Bolan Rock Shrine as shown here from 3rd party – independent – verifiable and reliable sources. Thanks ShoesssS 20:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm still inclined to Merge. It's interesting and does have a claim to notability of sorts, but there doesn't seem to be much notability independent of Marc Bolan himself, nor does there seem to be enough material to really be worth a stand-alone article. However, it's certainly not a candidate for deletion. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 09:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree. --bender235 (talk) 12:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  01:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

List of Representatives of the Queen for Commonwealth Member States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article serves no purpose, as the individual lists aren't 'Representatives of the Queen for Commonwealth Member States', nor is there even a title of 'Queen of the Commonwealth Member States'. When asked what the purpose was, I got no reply.

The list seems to be a combination of Governors-General (i.e. some of the representatives of the Queen in Commonwealth realms, but not all of them, because Lieutenant Governors are also direct representatives of the monarch), Presidents of republics (who do not represent the Queen in any way at all), and High Commissioners (who represent the British government, not the Queen).

We already have an article called List of Commonwealth Heads of Government, and an article called List of heads of missions from the United Kingdom (albeit out of date). These, I believe, are the articles that ought to exist. This list is mumbo-jumbo, and ought to be deleted. Bastin 20:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep. The Queen's ruling agent in Commonwealth countries is a definable category of persons that warrants a list. List of Commonwealth Heads of Government doesn't cut it at all, because the Queen's representative is not a head of government (they're the representative of the Head of State). List of heads of missions from the United Kingdom doesn't either because that refers to the UK's diplomatic representatives as opposed to the Queen's ruling agents. However, in my view many countries should be deleted from this list (such as Malaysia, Pakistan, India) because the Queen is not their Head of State and is in no way the representative of anything in respect of that country. But there are many non-republics who have the Queen as their Head of State, such as Australia and New Zealand. It is useful to have a list of those countries to find out who the governing agents of the Queen are in those countries. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Deletion sorting
  • Comment While the linkage may be relevant for countries such as Australia etc, the President is not the queen's representative in India, Pakistan, etc. The article needs some referencing to actually say what it does and all these "member of the commonwealth, so the head of state is the queen's representative" items should be deleted; otherwise the article as a whole should go. —SpacemanSpiff 20:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per Mkativerata's reasoning, but do the fixes suggested by SpacemanSpiff. Also consider carefully whether the list of names is practical to maintain. It might be necessary to just list the positions. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 20:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment As the list stands at present, it is misleading and verging on OR. The list includes - as representatives of the British monarch - the Heads of State of republics such as India, South Africa etc. whose HoS have no ties whatsoever to the British monarchy, regardless of their former status as British colonies. It even includes the HoS of countries such as Mozambique and Rwanda who were never ever colonies under the British crown! The Commonwealth is a free association of nations with no special role for Britain and the Queen's (symbolic) role as Head of the Commonwealth is completely separate from the governance arrangements of its member countries. I dare someone to telll Jacob Zuma that he is the Queen's representative in South Africa!!! There may be a place for a list of Vice-regal representatives of the current British monarch but this list would need almost a complete rewrite to allow this to happen. -- Mattinbgn\ 20:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The Queen of Canada is Elizabeth II. I cannot believe anyone could try to challenge that fact. Outback the koala (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The Queen is legally the head of state - her image appears on every Australian coin, we have "Crown Prosecutors" and cases like "R v defendant", and section 1 of the Australian Constitution is rather clear: "The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament, which shall consist of the Queen, a Senate, and a House of Representatives" ... note, no reference to the Governor-General, he doesn't get a look-in until section 61: "The executive power of the Commonwealth is vested in the Queen and is exercisable by the Governor-General as the Queen's representative." I only know the Australian situation but I assume that of the other two countries is similar (and I know they both have the Queen on their coins). Orderinchaos 01:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The point is that it is debatable, and, indeed, debated. The first article says, This wording implies that the government of Canada, as least during the premiership of Paul Martin, regarded the Governor General as the Canadian Head of State. The second says, In 2009 Prime Minister Kevin Rudd described the Governor-General as the Australian head of state. Now, they may both be wrong, but it does mean that the entire column "Head of State" in this article is not neutral wording. StAnselm (talk) 03:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I see your point, but I do not see any alternative way of phrasing it. Can you? Outback the koala (talk) 04:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Support Bduke's proposition to rename "for" to "in", and get rid of the obvious non-members of this group. Orderinchaos 01:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep It's an incomplete list that needs to be expanded. No reason to delete, but would support a move to a better title. It also needs a clear inclusion criteria, which it is lacking now. The rest per Mkativerata. Outback the koala (talk) 01:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. Discussion of "Head of State" is a red herring. This article is about representatives of the Queen. Commonwealth countries that are republics do not have representatives of the Queen. The Australian Governor-General is the Queen's representative, whether she is Head of State or not. The column of Heads of State should go along with people who do not represent the Queen. --Bduke (Discussion) 04:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough. I think we should just delete the column. Next issue: what is the justification for calling Mwai Kibaki, for example, the Queen's representative in Kenya? My main concern with this article is that when we get rid of all the unreferenced material, there'll be very little left. StAnselm (talk) 05:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep, a useful list, but I would agree that it would be a good idea to to rename "for" to "in", and then continue further discussion about the particulars on the article's talk page, and if necessary pursue some form of dispute resolution to come to consensus building. -- Cirt (talk) 13:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. Now that it's been so radically altered, it's fine. StAnselm (talk) 19:38, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Nominator changes to keep. As stated, User:StAnselm and I have radically changed the article per the suggestions above. Now that there is a clear definition of what the roles it lists are, it is useful to the project. Bastin 19:46, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  01:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Rob Oliver (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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non-notable Alan - talk 21:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CTJF83 chat 19:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
See also relevant discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_The_Simpsons#A_bunch_of_AFDs. --Vejvančický (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete A guy who directed four episodes of a show (yes, even when the show is the Simpsons), and animated or served as crew on a couple others, has a long way to go before he becomes Knowledge (XXG)-style notable. --MelanieN (talk) 23:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Brian A. Alexander (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Script coordinator for various TV shows. Script coordinator is a pretty minor job, which doesn't involve actual screenwriting. Third party coverage to establish notability seems to be difficult to locate, unsurprisingly. Gigs (talk) 19:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Newcomb ball. Anyone wishing to merge the content will find it underneath the redirect. Stifle (talk) 10:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Prisoner Ball (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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There are not enough references for this article to meet notability guidelines. One of the four citations states that the game is a variation of Newcomb ball. The Newcomb ball article already has a section on variations of that game. I propose that this article (Prisoner Ball]] be deleted and a summary of its contents be merged into the Newcomb ball article. Wikipeterproject (talk) 19:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Merge/Redirect – To Newcomb ball would be a very viable and much more pitiable alternative to delete. This is a legitimate game, as shown by the following news articles . However, agree with nominator that the piece does not have enough coverage to be a standalone article. On the other hand, if we go with a straight delete, an individual that may search under the specific term “Prisoner Ball” will most likely come up with a “No Article” found message. Where if we go with a merge/redirect and merge this information into Newcomb ball we have satisfied this users visit to Knowledge (XXG). Thanks . ShoesssS 21:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Response: Agree with the redirect in addition to the merge. Wikipeterproject (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge/Redirect As author of this article, I also agree with the merge and redirect. If I knew the Newcomb ball article existed, I would have redirected Prisoner Ball years ago... anyway, thanks for bringing this here. Much appreciated. — RyanCross (talk) 05:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. I appreciate that some of the arguments are not based in policy, but ultimately I cannot close this debate any other way. Stifle (talk) 10:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Not Myself Tonight (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Typical premature article, containing such earth-shattering information as "A music video will be shot soon. No other details have been revealed." No charts, no cover versions, no awards. Fails WP:NSONGS. Efforts to redirect to album article, as recommended by WP:NSONGS, have been thwarted. —Kww(talk) 19:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to badger each keep, but I will point out that at this point, none of the keep indications (afireinside27, HC 5555, Alexshunn, 190.29.227.98) have even commented on the relevant guideline, WP:NSONGS.—Kww(talk) 04:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
One final comment, and then I will bite my tongue for 24 hours until this AFD goes away one way or the other. People ask what harm is done by premature articles: how about that no one can figure out who wrote it?
  • Maybe Esther Dean?
  • Maybe no one knows?
  • Maybe Palow da Don helped
  • Hell, as long as we are just guessing, maybe Christina Aguilera wrote it: .
Articles about songs that haven't got enough information to provide even the basics (like writer and genre) invite chaos, because there are too many editors that feel compelled to insert their best guess into any and all empty infobox fields.—Kww(talk) 20:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Edit conflicts are not a valid reason to delete an article. KingOfTheMedia (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. WP:NSONGS says the article must have "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". I found sources from:
There :) KingOfTheMedia (talk) 18:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)— KingOfTheMedia (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Yes. A whole article from the British Broadcasting Corporation (one of the biggest news networks in the world) is quite enough, as is the whole article from the UK broadsheet The Independent and so on... KingOfTheMedia (talk) 20:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • "Will" is the operative verb here. I don't think anyone is arguing that it won't probably meet the criteria for having an article at some point in the future. The question to be resolved at this AFD is whether it meets those criteria now. Right now, it does not, and serves only as an accumulation point for rumors, gossip, and the occasional copyright violation.—Kww(talk) 21:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. As others have said, it is clearly a real song that will premiere within the next few days. I see no point in deleting the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by David Rush (talk • contribs)
  • Keep The single will released in late march. Confirmed. So, why we have to "redirect" somthing already announced? And, we aren't talking about and indie group. --Daviddavid0100 (talk) 06:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Redirect: So much fancruft, a song doesn't have it's own article until AFTER it's released or AFTER it's charted. Not before. The article will be re-created after. Jayy008 (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The article will be re-created after. -> This is necessary? I mean, it represents a complete waste of time. It was announced, and in less than a week, will be on, at least, ten charts. --Daviddavid0100 (talk) 16:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
It's about Knowledge (XXG) guidelines not personal opinion, the deletion can be reverted when it charts by the click of a button, until then it doesn't meet noteablility guidelines. Jayy008 (talk) 01:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep There are plenty of sources that confirm the song as an official single, not to mention Christina's official website confirms the song as a new single. Plenty of song articles around here have been created before the song was released, the only thing that made them proper candidates for deletion is if there were a lack of reliable sources confirming them as an official single. Besides, this song is being released four days from now. Poor timing to nominate this article for deletion, there's too many sources supporting its right to exist. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 02:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
BTW, I read WP:NSONGS, and this article meets all of the requirements. A future single can only have a separate article if there are enough reliable sources covering it. Practically all the major music/entertainment websites have confirmed "Not Myself Tonight" as an official single, and most importantly, so has Christina's label. Maybe this article can be restored from deletion with the click of a button, but there must be a valid reason for the article to be deleted in the first place. So far, I see no reason to delete this article when it meets all the guidelines that require it to be here. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 02:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
You'll have to point out that provision for future singles in WP:NSONGS. There are provisions for future albums, but none for future singles.—Kww(talk) 03:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - Lots of coverage now, and no need to delete it when it will even become greater during next week. Candyo32 (talk) 04:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - Even If there wasn't enough info at the moment, why remove it? It's the lead single of one of today's major artists and carries enough notability for anticipation, and in a week's time you will have plenty of stuff to put in it. Alone the fact that someone deemed this article for deletion while there are thousands on here that have no place in wiki, should be kind of a point ;) Anyway it seems every single of today's mainstream artist seem to have pages, why do you want to delete this one.Dollvalley (talk) 11:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
All fancruft, a vote is not a consensus! Jayy008 (talk) 23:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: The article definitely needs some sources, but that cover art has been revealed and a sneak peek has been released. Not to mention it is being released to radio in three days. No need to delete if sources are added. --Shadow (talk) 10:46, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I recommend this article be deleted without discussion, nobody is saying any valid reasons, an article can't exist simply because it exists and their is sources, it HAS to chart or be RELEASED to purchase. Why does nobody understand? Jayy008 (talk) 17:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
What don't you understand about IT'S GOING TO PREMIERE THIS WEEK? We have cover art, release dates, and even the cover art. It's premiering in two days, goes to radio next week, and the digital download comes out in two weeks. There is no reason to delete it. --Shadow (talk) 19:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • My take on this the article currently does not meet the guidelines established. While KingOfTheMedia has provided sources from major sites none of these are in the actual article. Right now it is mostly un-sourced except for the cover art, Polow da Don's involvement, the fact it is an official single and the release date for Australia. In the first source provided doesn't mention Ester Dean plus the rest of the article is un-sourced. In order for this article to be notable the links mentioned above should be in the article plus all the information in the article should be properly sourced.
  • Redirect. While the song is being released in a couple of days, and there are sources, it's going to be about another week if and when it charts.--User:Gabe19 (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. Tbhotch 19:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep If only because this makes the Lady Gaga fans mad. Kidding! :D No, seriously, what's all the fuss? The song is only going to get more and more coverage as the weeks go by. It's already been written up by several major sources, including Entertainment Weekly, and more reviews will come. If you delete the page now, it will only have to get re-written when the video is made and the single hits the charts - and we all know it will. Even if the song bombs, it's worth writing about. This is, as someone else said, Christina Aguilera, not some obscure artist. -- HollywoodDoll (talk) 14:02, 30 March 2010 (PST)
  • Keep actually for a change i agree with the creation of the article. It is actually reasonable well sourced and is less than two weeks away from release but has already recieved some critical reception and my guess is in the coming days it will recieve even more independent coverage. In terms of content compare it to a released song like I Got You (Leona Lewis song) and the only thing its really missing is some charts.Lil-unique1 (talk) 01:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 10:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Narayana Ninna Namada (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No evidence that this rises to notability for an independent article per WP:NSONGS. Hekerui (talk) 19:32, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I had looked at Google News, which goes through newspaper archives, using "Narayana Ninna Namada" and this got nothing. If it's only "Narayana Ninna" then there are hits but only trivial mentions. At Google books both version give basically as much. There may or may not be a systemic bias. The matter at hand can apparently answered only by checking non-Internet-available sources. Until reliable sources discussing this composition are revealed I'm not convinced of notability. Edit: I saw some content added but that's from the sources I mentioned. I just checked The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians but sadly it had no article on the composition itself and no mention of it in the Indian music section, but that's probably expected since it's too general for specific compositions in Carnatic music. Hekerui (talk) 20:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I think there is enough assertion of notability now, even from what is available online — several of the most prominent Carnatic music singers have performed this song; the charting etc. criteria of WP:NSONGS do not make sense for a 16th-century song. Shreevatsa (talk) 13:43, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the sentiment but you didn't add a substantive reason for notability to the article. Hekerui (talk) 22:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
There are the two books I linked above, they're just not available online. —SpacemanSpiff 22:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but haven't read them so you can't evaluate them. Hekerui (talk) 22:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't share your views on this. The content in the article is verifiable, there's one book where the google view shows that the transliteration and meaning are provided, there's another bit where google says it's available, The Hindu doesn't even think that the composition needs an introduction, and are we really looking to see if a composition from the sixteenth century passes our notability criteria of charting etc? —SpacemanSpiff 00:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment. A song that is 450 years old and we know who the composer is? That's notable in itself in western music! It certainly looks and smells "notable" but because I don't have the wherewithal to ascertain it, I won't vote keep, but it is my opinion. Maybe with a little research and editing by those that can will save the article? --Richhoncho (talk) 10:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I feel that this song is notable enough in its own right but I'm also wondering whether it has ties to - or is indeed the same song as - "Narayan" by The Prodigy and Kula Shaker. The song as performed by Prodigy and Kula Shaker was written by Kula Shaker frontman Crispian Mills but incorporates elements of traditional Indian devotional music, with the song's refrain being "Om Namah Narayana." Maybe there's no connection beyond the use of Narayana - a name for Vishnu - in the title but then again, maybe the mantra-like chant in the song is derived from "Narayana Ninna Namada". I think we need to ascertain whether its the same song or based on the same song and if so, expand the article accordingly. You can hear Kula Shaker's rendition here in case anyone can identify a similarity. If there is a connection though, that would certainly strengthen the article's notability since "Narayan" was featured on The Prodigy's The Fat of the Land album which reached #1 in both the UK Album Charts and the Billboard 200 in 1997. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 20:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Need4 Video Converter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This is a purely promotional article, created by a single-purpose account (see User contributions: MMetalSnake—apart from writing the Need4 Video Converter article, his/her only other contributions are promoting Need4 Video Converter in other articles). Its only purpose is advertising a non-notable product. It is not written in a neutral way ("one of the most complete converters") and does not suggest why the product is notable, because all three references are bogus:

  1. The Tucows and Softpedia sources are not product reviews written by the Tucows and Softpedia staff. Because they both contain the same text (examples: "Convert video and unprotected DVDs using ready-made presets for any mobile device", "Enjoy the highest conversion speed on the market!"), possibly written by the software author, in a very promotional way. Therefore, the Tucows and Softpedia links do not count as reliable sources.
  2. The Softpick link is totally useless, because Softpicks is an anonymous hoax website. They don't have any "About Us" section anywhere, they don't say who they are, the only way of contacting them is via the web form (a very common feature of hoax and spammers' websites), the Disclaimer, Terms of Use and other sections are "Under construction". This is not a new tactic in Knowledge (XXG)—spammers are constantly trying to put links to hoax websites like this in the hopes of fooling Wikipedians into thinking these references are somehow relevant. But the Softpick link clearly does not count as a reliable source for Knowledge (XXG).—J. M. (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Has many Google references, quite popular on download archives . The article has been re-written in a neutral way. Promoting links to the article has been deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.79.97.9 (talk) 08:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
    • Note: 95.79.97.9 (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic (a single-purpose account, possibly a sock puppet or a proxy).
    • Comment: The number of Google hits is irrelevant. Popularity in download archives in irrelevant, too (and Brothersoft cannot be taken seriously either). The only thing that makes a product notable is "significant coverage in reliable sources". Now, basically all Google results for "Need4 Video Converter" are trivial sources like download sites or crack/keygen downloads. This only proves that the product is available for download at various places. But it is not significant coverage in reliable sources and therefore fails to meet the notability guideline. If some download site reviews the product, it is in fact not a review at all, but just a verbatim copy of the marketing description that can be found elsewhere, too ("Enjoy the highest conversion speed on the market!"). The product is simply non-notable, and the article was created by a spammer.—J. M. (talk) 09:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete: Although the article is written in an acceptable manner, the main subject is not even near notability; there are tons of similar software in existence. This falls as promotional material. Rehman 01:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Nocturne (2010 film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Contested PROD. Independent film of questionable notability. Article is based on primary sources - no IMDB page, no significant coverage in independent third-party publications. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 19:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Holden McNeil (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This View Askewniverse character fails Knowledge (XXG)'s notability guidelines for fictional characters. Neelix (talk) 18:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Dallas James Pritt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Recreation of deleted article from 2007 and contested PROD. Regional actor of questionable notability. What few sources are provided only mention the subject in passing. No significant coverage in independent reliable or verifiable sources. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 18:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. My original prod reasoning was "Just 26 non-wiki ghits for this performer, zero gnews hits. Not finding professional reviews of his performances or other items to suggest notability", and even with the additional sources, my opinion is unchanged. The "Datony" award (which appears to be a local award) was for being part of an ensemble, and wasn't even the top award for an ensemble. The "Best Supporting Actor" award is unreferenced, and not enough info is given to tell who gave out this award. None of the references in the article show notability.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Bada Ganpati (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Kimi Wa Boku No Toriko Nare (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Google RS search turns up nothing put illegal scanlations and forum and blog comments. The Japanese artice does not have any reliable sources listed either. —Farix (t | c) 18:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete Unnotable manga series. Fails WP:BK and WP:N. No significant coverage in any reliable sources. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. After I went through the CSE results, I wound up deleting all but 8 hits, which survive only because I'm not comfortable banning their domains. None of them are interesting or significant in any way. --Gwern (contribs) 19:10 23 March 2010 (GMT)
  • Kimi Wa Boku No Toriko Nare a 4-ongoing vols series by Setsuri TSUZUKI published by Akita Shoten. No licensor in UK/US, France, Germany, Italy & Spain. Licensed by Tong Li Publishing in Taiwan. Based on all those available facts i'm leaning Delete for now as there are not enough evidences to pass any inclusion guidelines. --KrebMarkt 10:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm not finding any significant, and precious little insignificant, evidence of notability. Pending reviews in Japanese or Chinese, delete as failing WP:BK. No prejudice against recreation should it break out as a hit or be adapted as an anime. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Published in a notable magazine, Princess (magazine), long enough to be proven notable. You know by now that no matter how notable something is, you aren't likely to find any reviews for this type of thing, since why would any manga related magazine review something carried by their competition? Dream Focus 23:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
As has been repeated time and time again, being serialized or published in a magazine does not make a manga notable by any means. The notability of the magazine is not inherited by the manga. You know full well that notability is based on coverage by reliable third-party sources and not on first-party publications. —Farix (t | c) 00:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Notability is decided on consensus, which is the opinions of whoever is around at the time to comment, and the opinions of whoever closes the AFD. Sometimes articles like this are saved, sometimes not. And I believe I have repeated this time and again also. There no sense in having this same discussion every single time. Dream Focus 00:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
The reason we keep having the same conversation is because you keep starting the same conversation with frivolous reasonings, so don't put the blame on others. Notability is decided by WP:N as you know fully, which requires reliable third party sources, You know this, stop pretending you don't or that it's something you can ignore or twist into the same nonsense as usual. If you don't want to keep having the same conversation, I strongly suggest you try and understand why you keep getting into it. As you've been told dozens of times, being in a notable magazine does not make an individual series notable. The issue here is not what you think it is. Dandy Sephy (talk) 05:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:NThis page documents an English Knowledge (XXG) notability guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. The guidelines are just a suggestion, as I have pointed out many times before. They were passed by a small number of people, without the consensus or even knowledge of the overwhelming majority of Knowledge (XXG) editors. Topics with absolutely no proof of notability, do survive quite often. Policies must be followed, not guidelines. Dream Focus 06:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Thats exactly what I'm talking about, you are completely dismissing guidelines for being "suggestions" and not being consensus when thats the opposite of what they are. For starters the guideline box at the top of the articles states changes should reflect consensus, which means that yes, guidelines are still a established consensus. And per WP:G - Guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. Where a guideline appears to conflict with a policy, the policy normally takes precedence. The problem is that you read "common sense" as "ignore because its only a guideline". At the end of the day one of the main differences between policy and guidelines outside of legal areas is that policy outranks guidelines if the two conflict. In this case it's extremely unlikely that the guideline will be overruled by the policy because the Notability guideline actually supports WP:V rather then conflict with it - as notability in third party sources provide verifiable details. If you don't want your votes ignored or dissected, don't insist on ignoring or twisting things to suit your grasping at straws. You are quoting what the page says but not actually reading the meaning."Occasional exceptions", not ignoring the guideline in every afd under the guise of common sense when you just happen to dislike guidelines in general. When you start using your own common sense, you can start lecturing others over it. Guidelines should be followed unless you have a good case not to, this isn't one of them. You've no cause to complain about any of this as long as you keep up this nonsense. The work doesn't pass WP:N, instead of keeping up the war against a consensual guideline, provide actual proof this article passes the guideline, or why the guideline should be overruled (with well thought out reasoning, not false claims about the validity of the guideline). If you want to keep articles, giving flimsy claims and ignoring guidelines isn't going to help you. Dandy Sephy (talk) 11:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete Despite the claim above, being an individual series published as an individual part of a magazine does not make that series notable, and notability requires discussion in reliable third party sources (WP:N). And currently fails WP:V entirely.Dandy Sephy (talk) 05:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Moved to User Space The article has been moved to Greekboy user space until it meets WP:NALBUMS Mike Cline (talk) 15:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Untitled Album (Anna Vissi) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Textbook WP:HAMMER. Sources barely confirm any of the info, article is mostly coatrack about what Anna Vissi had been doing leading up to this album with very little info actually about the album. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 18:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Delete - This album is unlikely to take off as originally planned after the death of Greg Ladanyi, and we already know that Vissi has other immediate plans in 2010. I will see that the main editors of this page have it saved as a draft for future reference for the time being. Imperatore (talk) 21:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment - Although I do not agree with the exact reasons stated for deletion, this album has hit a stand still it seems. I am willing to move it into a sub page on my userpage instead of outright deletion if the final decision is to delete. This way the edit history will be preserved for whenever this album actually takes off in the future. Greekboy (talk) 23:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment - Ironically, MAD TV reports today (see here) that Vissi will be traveling to New York during Easter, before her appearances in Thessaloniki, to put the finishing touches on her English album. So it looks like the album is actually moving ahead. I am tempted to say Keep....but again, I wouldn't mind just moving it to my page until it actually finalizes. Greekboy (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Move to a user subpage. The article's content is substantial and the article should be able to be worked upon as the release date approaches. It's coming, but I don't think it's ready for a page in the mainspace yet. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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Move to a user subpage. In light of information presented, I support a move a user's talk page. Imperatore (talk) 02:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

O.Y.E. - The New Awareness (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This sounds like some movement of ill definition that the article's creator just came up with. Not much is really there for this one that explains why this movement is even notable. A few links to unrelated articles exist on the page. I can't even figure out what this is about! Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 18:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Strong delete. This reads like someones acid trip. Its got no relavance to anything, that I can figure out. The sooner its gone the better. Siind (talk) 18:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

First and foremost, thank you for responding to my new article submission. As this is my first article composed, I have been a fan of Wiki for quite a long time. As stated in the article this isn't a movement despite what Dennis as submitted, however the article is definitely in its first stages obviously as I have just only begun. the article will be about higher level thinking, individual awareness, the psychology of the mind and how it takes in and interprets data from its surrounding. All links added to the page directly relate to Awareness and Cognitive thinking and if given the opportunity to finish, I can assure you that the article will continue to fit within the realm of the Knowledge (XXG) policy. To Dennis's observation that perhaps the title is undefined and unclear however it was flagged for deletion in a little under two minutes of posting! LOL Its a work in progress, is there another way in which I should be doing this. I am completely open to suggestions and thank all who read this for your input including Dennis. Truthlivesinus (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete as original research. Truthlivesinus, the issue here is not whether the article is true, either for you or for others (it may well be a description of higher awareness which attracts people) , but whether it is VERIFIABLE. ideally, each expressed fact or opinion in an article can be sourced to a notable, reliable third party. nothing here is sourced to someone else. if alan watts, or krishnamurti, or sai baba, used "oye the new awareness" in a speech or interview, or if any of these ideas can be sourced to specific, notable people of "higher awareness", then those statements can be included in articles. if this whole essay can be sourced to someone other than yourself, say a well known book which tries to make these arguments, then the article can stand. If you are a fan of WP, you would know this. please dont take it personally when this is deleted (which it will be, and I know enough about this subject to know this essay is NOT from a reliable source). sincerely, Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete.WP:OR, WP:NOT#ESSAY. Truthlivesinus, to answer your question, you can create user subpages (e.g., User:Truthlivesinus/The New Awareness) and work on articles without placing them in the main namespace. But keep in mind that Knowledge (XXG) is not a free webhost. If the subject isn't WP:N-notable, or the final draft of the subpage will not be able to pass WP:V, WP:NPOV or WP:NOT, you'll probably be wasting your time. — Rankiri (talk) 20:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per the above. It's possible that sources exist, and I'm happy to switch to Keep if they are found, but I can't find evidence of them. Without an indication that the subject is sourceable, the article can't remain. If time for research would be helpful, there's no objection from me to userfication. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Frank Sinatra: 10 CD Box Set (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This is not an album but a commercial non-notable compilation for the German market. Also the source links provided are wrong and the article consists of a mere track list. De728631 (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment In my understanding, an "album" has to involve cooperation with the artist and consists mainly of newly released tracks. There are of course posthumous releases and such but I would never regard a compilation of any sorts as an official album, unless it is some Best Of disc released during the lifetime of the artist. De728631 (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 10:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Robert Brown (baseball) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Is this notable. he played all of two games. Has no avg, no homeruns, or RBI's. But most importantly no info. There is no info on he besides his two games. Yes this was 130 years ago but nothing. Even is he battled left or right is unknown. Not to mention some of Teams that played for the National Association don't have articles. Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 18:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

First, I'll point to the Union of Morrisania team the 1867 champs. Team championship pic here. Now to question that Major League players have been notable. I'll quote WP:Notability "A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included." It also says "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability". The is no converge what so ever on this person. This will alway's be an article that says he played two games and nothing more.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 03:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
The National Association of Professional Base Ball Players existed only from 1871-1875 and Morrisania was not a part of that league. They were part of the earlier amateur league. All members of the Professional league have pages.Spanneraol (talk) 14:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
This player played for the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players. --Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 02:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes, this player did.. but you asserted that all of those teams did not have wikipedia pages, but they all do.Spanneraol (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
No I didn't has the NA refers to BOTH leagues as the left over from the first NA made the New NA. Not to mention the fact the MLB does considers them as the same competitive level and does not consider either to be the top.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 06:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
One league was professional, the previous league was not.. no source considers the first league one the same level.. for instance Baseball Reference lists the statistics of the second league and treats it as a professional major league.. while the amateur league that preceded it is not treated as such. Very little is written about the individual teams in the prior league but the NAPBBP and its teams are written about in numerous sources. Spanneraol (talk) 14:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per WP:BIO and long-standing precedent. caknuck ° needs to be running more often 06:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Whether it's fair or not, WP:ATHLETE has always conferred inherent notability on persons who have competed at the "fully professional level" of a sport, and the definition is then elaborated upon based upon which sport it is. In the case of baseball, the guidelines are WP:BASE/N, which exclude minor league players from inherent notability, but confer it upon people who played in leagues that historically have been considered to be "major". Although Robert Brown played only two games in the National Association, the NA was the major league in 1874. The National League didn't get its start until 1876, and the American League not until 1901. Mandsford (talk) 12:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Remember it says 'Additional criteria' that he goes under, but he doesn't meet the 'basic criteria'. I would think, under Knowledge (XXG):Notability (people), that basic criteria holds more ground than addition criteria.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 14:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
A lot of people don't like the concept, but "inherent notability" is presumed for members of certain groups of people, regardless of whether one could find significant coverage from multiple sources. For example, under WP:POLITICIAN, any person who has ever served in a national or state legislature for any length of time is generally considered notable, even if no other fact can be confirmed about that person beyond the fact of service in a legislature. It's doubtful that we would be able to find a great deal of information about someone who had served as a legislator in Nicaragua in 1873, and yet that person would be excused from the usual requirements of demonstrating notability if a reliable source confirmed the service. Robert Brown is one of the many people who get mentioned in The Baseball Encyclopedia and other player registers, regardless of having been a major leaguer only briefly. The same type of inherent notability is generally afforded upon dinky little villages around the world, small-town radio stations, colleges that you and I have never heard of, senior high schools, and many other locations that cannot demonstrate worldwide fame. Overall, I think that inherent notability is a good thing, because it bypasses the debates between ordinary people over whether someone is else is a "important enough" to merit their own article on Knowledge (XXG). Mandsford (talk) 16:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with a bias. It's the fact this article has nothing, but he played two games. Not even if he batted right or left. He clearly does not have the basic criteria under WP:Notability (people) --Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 05:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Herostratus is not a baseball player. Can you find ONE just one other article on wikipedia of a baseball player who we don't know the handiness. If you want to compare the two pages Herostratus qualifies under Basic criteria while Brown does not.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I can find a ton of 19th-century baseball player artcles that we dont know the handiness of... Gid Gardner as an example.. Spanneraol (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, just made one. Now, let's not make this a WP:WAX argument. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 05:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. As has been said, consider doing this as a category system instead.  Sandstein  04:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

List of novels by point of view (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Unnecessary list attempting to organize novels by "point of view", which is completely unsourced personal views of what constitutes a "well known example" (per the lead). Well-known to who? What source says these are the best novels for each point-of-view and only these specific ones? The scope is far too broad for any kind of valid list, and one cannot just randomly pick novels to say "here are examples of this kind or that kind" of POV. Point of view (literature) already covers the basics of the actual topic of point of view. This list appears to fail WP:NOT and WP:LIST, and has apparently its need to exist has disputed a few times on its talk page, but no AfD or PROD was done. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete. WP:SALAT, WP:NOTDIR. Considering that POV methods like first-person narrative are extremely popular among writers, the list is simply too broad in scope to be useful or maintainable. — Rankiri (talk) 18:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete this is an impossible to maintain article. the name of the article demands that it be a list of all notable novels sorted by point of view. thats not an appropriate article subject. examples of novels with certain pov's could be listed in the articles on various povs. however, if the articles defenders are really interested in preserving this in some manner, they could make sure each novel listed states the novels pov in its article, and create categories for each pov type: in addition to Category:Point of view, have Category:First person narrative novels, second person narrative, etc. we already have Category:Fiction with unreliable narrators, which is a good category in this vein. then they could build up article lists within the categories. lots of work, but i really see that as the only way to do this. this article is essentially a teaching guide for a class, not an encyclopedia article. The main defender of this article, TheEditrix2, admits he wrote it to help teach writers, and his user page doesnt exactly facilitate cooperation on articles. really, thats just rude!Mercurywoodrose (talk) 20:38, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:SALAT as the subject is too broad to be manageable since it would include every novel we have. The category system works much better for this type of organization. ThemFromSpace 00:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep because it serves an educational purpose. Plese read talk page for explanation of its educational value. Numerous of my editing clients have been sent to the page, as have my teenaged writing students, kids who didn't otherwise grasp the fine differences between various literary POVs. The POV page simply doesn't serve the same purpose. --TheEditrix2 05:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Please recall WP:USEFUL and WP:NOTTEXTBOOK. The purpose of Knowledge (XXG) is to present facts, not to teach subject matter. Besides, it seems that the list's educational value is inversely proportional to the list's size. If properly maintained, it'll have to house thousands, if not tens of thousands, of entries, and lists of this size are neither educational nor encyclopedic. — Rankiri (talk) 12:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete I tend to agree with TheEditrix that it's helpful to have illustrations of the different types of narrative described in point of view (literature). Some examples should be in that article. The problem with making an entire list is that every work of fiction ever written would fall into one of the categories on the list. Even if the list could be limited to a handful of representative examples for each type of narration, it's unlikely that one could find a representative sample of books that are so well-known that the mere mention of the title is enough to be educational. It's better that examples like Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, Gone With the Wind, etc. be part of the parent article, and that longer lists should be part of spinoffs like First-person narrative, Third person limited omniscient, etc. Mandsford (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't wish to pout or argue. But to those who gleefully join in AFDs, may I just point out how discouraging it is to contributors when their serious efforts to contribute useful information to Knowledge (XXG) are dismissed and deleted on specious interpretations of obscure rules? The reason my profile is "rude" (c.f. MercuryWoodRose's irrelevent assessment of me personality, above) is that I tired of warring over nonsense. I shall now retire to a corner and weep because once again, my well intended efforts to contribute useful educational information have been poo'ed upon. And why? Is Knowledge (XXG) running short on server space? Is the Internet about to overrun its bandwidth? Leaving it alone would do NO harm, and deleting will make Knowledge (XXG) a slightly less helpful (and a less kind) place. But there you go. I shall leave, again, for an extended period of time to tend to my disapointment in the human race. Sigh. --TheEditrix2 15:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
That's very poignant. But who said that the information couldn't be contributed to Knowledge (XXG)? The debate is over whether it ought to be in a separate article all its own. There are plenty of existing articles where these examples could be added. The main thing to remember is that if one is going to create a new article, then there are basic rules to follow, the main ones being to list one's sources of information and to avoid "original synthesis". The rules are less strict when it comes to adding to articles that are already in place. Mandsford (talk) 13:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Ridgefield School District (New Jersey). Non-admin closure. Jujutacular  00:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Slocum skewes school (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This article about a primary school simply copies information from other websites and is mostly statistics. As written, there is no inherent notability. Knowledge (XXG):OUTCOMES#Education Funnyfarmofdoom (talk to me) 17:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Ute Lemper. It may well have references now, but they're not significant, and it doesn't pass WP:MUSIC#ALBUMS as it stands Black Kite 18:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Between Yesterday and Tomorrow (US) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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A version of an album that has no article (one has apparently been deleted thrice.) —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:59, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - The version of this article without "(US)" at the end has been deleted three times, all due to copyright infringement. I can't tell if they're the same, though. DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)|(talk to me)|(What I've done) 10:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I see the problem -- a copyvio. I rewrote the article into a stub, removed the copyvio concerns and added two references. THis should be okay. Warrah (talk) 19:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ryan Postlethwaite 16:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 10:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Chaverim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable organization. It has been tagged for over a year with no improvement. In violation of NOTWEBHOST and WP:N. Joe407 (talk) 16:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Really? What search engines are you using? The "news" link above yields only 2350 hits for "Chaverim". Aside from its website, Chaveirim generally shies away from publicity, so most of those 74000 hits that you found were to Reform congregations, camps, and general usage of the term chaverim (friends). The links that I cited in my vote were to a scattering of news stories that mention in passing the organization named Chaveirim. Yoninah (talk) 08:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. SNOW dekete Tone 21:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Vegas splash (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Contested prod. Covered by just about every section of WP:NOT, unfortunately I don't see a speedy criterion for this mess. Snow delete.  Blanchardb -- timed 16:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was Not-delete. There is no consensus on whether to merge, redirect, or neither, but there is a consensus against deletion. It is open to an editor believing merging or redirection to be an appropriate course of action to boldly do either, or to open a talk page discussion of same. Stifle (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Percy Jackson Book 6 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Contested PROD : speculative article. Violates WP:CRYSTAL Codf1977 (talk) 15:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

British Isles TaeKwon-Do Federation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non notable minor organisation with no sources brought from Martial arts Article Review Nate/c 14:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

STDUniversity.org (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable website, that does not meet WP:ORG Codf1977 (talk) 14:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep article - While Knowledge (XXG)'s notability guidelines are fairly substantial, they are also, to an extent, open to interpretation. This topic is no more or less notable than similar pages that have not been tagged for deletion; specifically, STD Wizard, which is a similar website that seems to have been deemed notable enough to stay. In fact, if STD Wizard has more external media to back it up on the notability front, then this is due to the fact that it is a much older site. As someone who is familiar with the work of both sites, I fail to see a distinction. Of course, this isn't a plea to have the STD Wizard entry removed; quite the contrary - it is an important resource of which people ought to be aware. However, so too does STDUniversity.org serve a similarly notable purpose. Thank you. --HealthGal (talk) 14:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comparison with another article is irrelevant. For one thing that one may show more notability than this one, even if you don't see it; for another thing they may both lack notability: there are, unfortunately, many articles which do not satisfy Knowledge (XXG)'s guidelines but have not yet been dealt with. If the current topic does not have external sources to support its notability because it is new then it is not yet notable, whether or not it may become notable in the future. The fact that the site "serves a ... notable purpose" is not a criterion for inclusion: Knowledge (XXG)'s notability standard is based on coverage in independent sources, not on what purpose the subject seeks to serve. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I am currently working to revise the Tracey Powell article and am happy to do the same with this one as well. However, you state that the piece "asserts roughly the same level of notability for his connection with this website." If you read the article on Powell, you'll see that it barely makes mention of this website, but rather, focuses on his career and contributions to the medical testing field. I appreciate your position with respect to either article, but your comment above implies that the Powell article's only claim to notability lies in the fact that he is connected with this website, which is far from the case.

--HealthGal (talk) 21:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment I've moved the article Tracey Powell to User:HealthGal/Tracey Powell so it could be worked on there. I've informed the user of the citation, notability and weasel/peacock guidelines which would need to be addressed before it could be moved back. There is every possiblity that notability will not be achieved. If so, fair enough. I would suggest to the closing admin of this afd that instead of deleting, the same could be done here. Stephen! 23:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 10:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Burton–Judson Courts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources. TM 14:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Your point being?--TM 14:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
That the subject of the article was not clear from either the article title nor the nomination, and as such folks browsing the deletion discussions may not know whether this subject is of interest to them or not. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge the the UC article. No indication there are multiple reliable and independent sources with significant coverage needed to show notability for a standalone article. Edison (talk) 16:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I have added another reference to the article. There is independent coverage of this building. I suggest that User:Namiba engage in a comprehensive discussion of university dorm articles at WikiProject Universities rather than PRODing and redirecting such articles without consensus. Racepacket (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - It is mentioned in an architectural book, which seems independent. Coverage is still pretty minimal. PDCook (talk) 13:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. No claim to notability, let alone evidence of it. If it get a mention in an architectural book, give it a mention in the article on the university. Anything else is undue prominence. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Overall, I think this one is notable enough. The architecture book cited in the article devotes a few paragraphs to this structure. There seems to be some more info in this book on Julius Rosenwald, and the AIA Guide to Chicago briefly highlights the building. In addition, this Chicago Tribune article seems to discuss the planning for the Burton-Judson Courts. It doesn't use that name to describe the halls, but all the other facts fit (Zantzinger et al are described as the architects; the structure was to be built between Ellis and Greenwood Avenues, south of the Midway; Julius Rosenwald was involved, etc). Zagalejo^^^ 03:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I think this one is a keeper, it might be the oldest UofC dorm, and it certainly has a lot of mentions in travel and architecture guides. Speciate (talk) 05:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete Eli Sentman Eli Sentman doesn't meet Knowledge (XXG)'s Notability Standard. That name should be removed from the list of people who have lived in the dorm. Speciate (talk) 09:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.143.64 (talk)
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The result was merge to University of Chicago. Stifle (talk) 10:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Maclean Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources. TM 14:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The Contribution Of The Indian Sufis To The Communal Harmony..By R.M.Chopra (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Essay. Delete.  Blanchardb -- timed 14:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was merge to University of Chicago. Stifle (talk) 10:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Broadview Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources. TM 14:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Racepacket, please read the top of the page when editing this one. It says "Remember that the debate is not a vote, so recommendations on the course of action to be taken should always be sustained by arguments." What is your argument for keeping this article? The others? If you have multiple, verifiable third party sources to provide, fantastic. I may withdraw my nomination of some articles now that sources have been found. But simply disagreeing with my choice of process is not a rationale for keeping this or any other article.--TM 18:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. "Delete" opinions may no longer be relevant following expansion by Racepacket.  Sandstein  05:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Breckinridge Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources. I removed a significant amount of "content" because it was total original research. It had absolutely no sources and should not be included/restored even if kept. TM 13:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I have expanded the article. The building dates back to 1916 and served as a YWCA-type residence for working, single women until it was purchased by the University of Chicago in 1968. The building has references in books independent of the University. This is definitely a keeper. Racepacket (talk) 13:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Withdraw per new independent, non-trivial sources. Good job Racepacket. If only all of the articles you have commented to keep actually had sources like this one.--TM 13:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

AIDAsol (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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No significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 13:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Blackstone Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources. I removed a significant amount of "content" because it was total original research. It had absolutely no sources and should not be included/restored even if kept. TM

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Belfast City FC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Fails notability requirements Mooretwin (talk) 13:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Max Palevsky Residential Commons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources TM 13:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment These are not legitimate reasons to keep an article. Either find the sources now for a stand alone article or it will be merged into the forthcoming article on housing at Chicago.--TM 06:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy Close, nomination withdrawn and no !votes to delete (non admin closure) Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 20:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Pierce Tower (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources TM 13:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep. I added more detail, a couple book refs and an Emporis ref. Novickas (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Withdrawn by nom now that multiple, independent, non-trivial sources have been provided. Thanks for finding these Novickas.--TM 18:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

AfDs for this article:
Zhang_Haijie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Delete This article is a hoax, a nonsense as well as outrageous, inappropriate and offensive and unconstructive. Youmaynotknowme (talk) 19:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC) — Youmaynotknowme (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I have read the "Deletion Policy" and fully understood the content. And my decision to delete the page is in accordance with the terms specified in the Policy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

I have also read the "Guide To Deletion" and fully understood the content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Youmaynotknowme (talk • contribs) 09:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I tried to delete the page for a few good reasons:

  • The creater of the page has obviously vandalized it by giving informations, strongly believed to be false, incorrect and/or inaccurate.
  • The creator of the page has given out someone else's private information without getting the permission from the affected person, hence, violating the rights to that person's personal privacy.
  • This is completely nonsense, meaningless, unconstructive and outrageous.
  • Obviously, I have tried the "db delete because" function as explained in the help section but does not work.
  • Here are just some of the hyperlinks to the help section where you can find advices for user who finds article inappropriate, offensive and also, MOST IMPORTANTLY, violating the "comunally agreed policies and guidelines."

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Guide_to_administrator_intervention_against_vandalism

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Contact_us/Article_problem/Vandalism

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Contact_us/Article_problem/Factual_error

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_discussions

Please take your time to consider these facts seriously and grant my request to delete the page http://en.wikipedia.org/Zhang_Haijie for good.

If you were to take a look at the "History" section at the top of the page, you will also find others' opinions, concerns and debates contributed by other members of the public about removing and deleting the page.

Please note that many people including myself sees this as an etiquette problem.

Speedy Delete Please note that "Notability" is only ONE OF THE GUIDELINE to create a good article. Furthermore, I DO NOT SEE that this article has conform with the "Notability" guideline. Our main discussion here is about DELETING this article and I think it is only correct if we pay our attention on whether or not this article has indeed violated the criteria for "Deletion", as specified in the "Deletion Policy". In this discussion, we have to be relevant to be on the track, NOT off the track. I strongly urge commentators to read the "Notability Guideline" properly before providing their opinions on this issue. By carefully reading and understanding it will help you to provide a reasonable point of view on this discussion. Please not that Knowledge (XXG)'s "Guideline and Policy" is a general suggestion to users to make proper use of it, not to misuse it. It is also NOT above the Law. Any found guilty of violating the Law can face legal consequences. Please read this carefully again: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy and http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons.Youmaynotknowme (talk) 09:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Be careful what you say regarding legal action, and please review the WP:Legal threats policy. I'm pretty sure everyone here is familiar with the notability policy. I question if you understand it fully. Can you provide us with the language in the policies that you believe this article violates? If she is an anchor of a major news program and has won awards, it seems pretty clear she meets the notability policy per WP:BIO. Your nebulous claims of "hoax" and "nonsense", and your links to policies aren't going to get this article deleted. You need to explain explicitly what policies this article violates, and why that warrants deletion. Also, you only get to !vote once, and I've struck out your second vote. PDCook (talk) 12:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I can't see anything in the article that looks libellous or defamatory. I also can't see much in the way of sourcing that's accessible. I am puzzled as to the vehemence of the attack on the article's existence and as to why it is described as a hoax. Some better info might help to explain that. I can't really see either how the creator of an article can be said to vandalise it. I note that the creator of the article has edited many different pages, but that Youmaynotknowme appears to be a single purpose account. Peridon (talk) 14:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Going for a Keep as convincing evidence for deletion hasn't appeared. Come to that, I don't thing that any evidence for deletion has appeared... It seems to be just allegations and 'original research' - or possible personal prejudice of some kind. "Please note that many people including myself sees this as an etiquette problem"? Where are they? We often get a flock of socks and SPAs in AfD. Unusually, we only appear to have the nominator here, both in terms of wanting to delete and of 'knowing' why it should be deleted. Peridon (talk) 12:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Some editors have expressed their views on Talk:Zhang Haijie recently. Please take a look. _LDS (talk) 04:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Stony Island Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article which makes no claim to notability and does not present multiple, independent, non-trivial sources TM

Again, Racepacket, this is not a vote. What is your rationale for keeping the article? How does it pass the established norms of WP:GNG?--TM 01:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
References to demonstrate notability? Edison (talk) 21:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge this and any other relevant residence halls to University of Chicago housing. I believe this needs to be the default for all residence hall pages. It tremendously eases maintenance, gets rid of the stubby articles, helps monitor for vandalism (much easier to vandalize a particular hall if nobody else is looking), and allows editors to read about the housing character of a university collectively, as opposed to in a bunch of broken stubs about individual halls. (Same comment I've left on the others). Shadowjams (talk) 21:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
    CommentHaving a standalone article about the housing /dorms at a particular university is the thing to do if a section of student housing would make the article on the university too long. That will be the case for some schools but not all. Edison (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The vast majority of campus residences are not notable. I agree that WP:Universities needs to come up with a suitable policy, but until that happens, we need to judge these articles by the standards all other articles are judged by, namely WP:GNG.--TM 19:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

South Campus Residence Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Article makes no claim to notability and does not provide multiple independent sources. TM 13:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Note - Absent a bad faith nomination (and even then, only in cases of bans or egregious behavior) do we discount otherwise proper actions because of who did them. That's not a reason to Keep, just to be contrary. Shadowjams (talk) 21:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge this and any other relevant residence halls to University of Chicago housing. I believe this needs to be the default for all residence hall pages. It tremendously eases maintenance, gets rid of the stubby articles, helps monitor for vandalism (much easier to vandalize a particular hall if nobody else is looking), and allows editors to read about the housing character of a university collectively, as opposed to in a bunch of broken stubs about individual halls. Shadowjams (talk) 21:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. No claim to notability, let alone evidence of it. And object the notion that a WikiProject should be encouraged to seek some sort of consensus to ignore or bypass WP:GNG. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. This new dorm is large, but I can't find anything encyclopedic about it on the internet. Delete for now, with no prejudice to recreation if decent sourcing is provided. Speciate (talk) 05:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Sterling Airlines. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Sterling Airlines destinations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Its been over a year since Sterling folded and there appears to be no sourcing for their last network routing. The issue of enduring notability was not really resolved in the last AFD and I can't find any reliable sourcing on google, googlenews and googlebooks that addresses Sterling's routes at the time of their collapse. Some tangential mentions of having routes but no evidence that the actual routes are notable. Spartaz 13:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep Notability is not temporary, and as destinations lists of defunct airlines have reached FL status, this is not a reason for deletion. For an archive of the route map, see here. Merely using three variations of Google is not sufficient to establish there are no available sources; for instance, have you tried searching Danish sources? A good start is www.boarding.no, where an example article here discusses in detail the destinations (and services) of Sterling to various destinations. Another example is Berlingske Tidende, who has this article on services from Malmø, of dozens of articles on Sterling destinations. In general, all new air routes result in significant coverage in multiple medias, and destination lists are a summary of this compilation. See for instance List of Braathens destinations for how to compile a high-quality list of destinations. Arsenikk 14:38, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    • Boarding.no is not a RS by the look of it but an information agregator that has no proper attributation of information. The listed article looks more like a regurgitated press release then a proper article. The BT one also looks like a regurgitated press release, has no byline and is actually about the squabbling between NB and DY for supremacy in the Nordic LLC market. I'm not really buying that as the kind of coverage we need to justify a separate article. Spartaz 18:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge to Sterling Airlines, whose notability is not temporary. In many instances, "______ Airlines destinations" articles occur as a result of poor organization and presentation of information, including the mistaken belief that one must provide a separate line for each item in a list. One could just as easily summarize the destinations of this defunct airline in a paragraph: "Sterling Airlines served the nations of Austria (Salzburg), Belgium (Brussels), Bulgaria (Burgas and Varna), Croatia (Split), the Czech Republic (Prague), Denmark (Aalborg, Billund, and Copenhagen), France (Biarritz, Paris, Montpellier, and Nice); Germany (Berlin), Greece (Athens and Chania), Hungary (Budapest), Italy (Bologna, Florence, Milan, Naple, Rome, Venice), Norway (Oslo, Gardermoen, and Bergen), Poland (Kraków), Portugal (Faro and Funchal), Spain (Alicante, Barcelona, Las Palmas, Málaga, Palma de Mallorca and Tenerife), Sweden (Gothenburg, Malmö and Stockholm), Switzerland (Geneva), the United Kingdom (Edinburgh, London, and Nottingham)." There is no right of entitlement to stretch out that information with specific links to articles about those cities or the about airports within those cities). Mandsford (talk) 16:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge to Sterling Airlines. The information could easily be encapsulated in a single paragraph, as per Mandsford's proposal. Warrah (talk) 17:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge per Mansford. Merging was also brought up in the previous AfD, so I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet. ThemFromSpace 23:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge to Sterling Airlines. A separate article on destinations is utterly unnecessary, but this is not the first of its kind that we have had to merge. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep' since this airline is now defunct and no longer in operation, the article and its destination page needs to be kept as a historical reference. Regarding the destinations page, it need to be kept on a seperate page. Per WP:AIRLINES, airlines (current or defunct) that have at least 10 destinations needs to be put on a seperate page. Many defunct carriers still keeps their destination page as a historical reference. Snoozlepet (talk) 15:46, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Merge to Sterling Airlines. The Destinations section in the main article is empty apart from a seealso link. I suggest merging the information for the moment until such a time when the section becomes too big at which point a separate article can be considered. → AA — 22:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Pooktre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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  • delete Griseum recreated the Pooktre article by copying and pasting from Tree shaping creating a stub. With the stated out come of removing the Pooktre content from Tree shaping and then getting the Pooktre article deleted. Playing politics

There is a huge discussion going on at Tree shaping and it is locked down by administrator SilkTork, which is why Griseum didn't just remove the content from Tree shaping. I am Becky Northey co-founder of Pooktre and in the original discussion about deleting Pooktre I asked for Speed delete because I realized it didn't meet the Knowledge (XXG) criteria. As this new Pooktre page is just duplicate content from Tree shaping it should be redirected back to Tree shaping (I am pretty sure once Griseum reads this he add some more content to the page, to try and save it.) Blackash have a chat 13:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Rankiri (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment. That makes sense. It would still appear to be the re-creation of deleted content, though. I saw a closed AfD with a blue link, followed it, and saw an article similar to what was being discussed at the closed AfD with no AfD notice. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - On 20 March 2010, User:SilkTork (an admin) opined that an article just about Pooktre seemed appropriate. Having researched on-line refs about this subject over the last couple months, I agreed and also thought the creation of such an article could possibly help unplug the constipated debate happening at Talk:Tree shaping. Removing mention of Pooktre methods from the tree shaping article wouldn't be inappropriate; I haven't and wouldn't advocate that. NB - I didn’t realize the Pooktre article had been deleted in January 2010 – I thought it was more like 6 months ago. If I had I would have waited or refrained entirely. Thanks. --Griseum (talk) 23:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  1. "I have said that I think that a case can be made for having an article on Arborsculpture/Richard Reames, and the same I feel is true of Pooktre; though at this point it might be more helpful to everyone concerned if material and information on Reames and on Pooktre were dealt with and built up in this article before being split out into standalone article. " SilkTork *YES! 22:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC) comment buried here
  2. "I still feel that an article could be written on both Pooktre and Richard Reames. The articles would need to be neutral and well sourced, and have to withstand a challenge to their notability. It's certainly doable. Though my recommendation is that this article is first built, and then those articles can be broken off from this one in WP:Summary style if people so wish. I do not, however, wish to get involved in the creating of those articles! SilkTork *YES! 00:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC) search stub


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The result was delete.  Sandstein  04:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

François Raffoul (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Not a full professor, not a terribly prestigious university, not many publications with many citations - doesn't seem to meet WP:PROF. For that the two books with the most citations, he was merely the translator. Calliopejen1 (talk) 12:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

impact ratings need to be considered relative to other scholars within the same area, as significance of work in French philosophy is not apparent from general impact ratings. It is also problematic that many French libraries and publications are not included in such rankings. Further, translations are a central part of working on French philosophy in the English-speaking world. They should not be so easily dismissed as they shape and inform the reception of philosophers such as Nancy and Lacan. 98.216.66.197 (talk) 11:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
This sounds like special pleading. Can you source these claims? Xxanthippe (talk) 11:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC).
  • Without some sort of evidence, I'm afraid that statements of the type "significance of work in ______ is not apparent from general impact ratings" are indeed nothing more than special pleading. The inclusion statement above is patently false. For example, WorldCat does indeed index books from libraries around the world, including France (hence the "World" part of the name). French journals are indexed as well. For example, WoS indexes >170 journals published in France (easy to check) and presumably a larger number that are published in the French language (apparently harder to check). If the commenter's argument were true, we might expect to find a similar "bias" against some of the other French philosophers that WP considers notable, but this is not the case. For example, WoS shows Derrida to have published 155 articles with citations counts of 83, 74, 63, 60, 56, ... plus an enormous number of books (listed in the article). WorldCat shows that holdings are also large, e.g. Derrida's "Acts of Literature" is held by >800 institutions and "Aporias" in >500. (The latter seems to have been a translation from French.) No, I think the true explanation is that Raffoul is not notable. May perhaps be one day, but not now. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 14:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC).
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The result was speedy delete to allow requested page move A League of Their Own (Game Show) to A League of Their Own (game show). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

A_League_of_Their_Own_(game_show) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (])

Page already exsists here: A League of Their Own (Game Show) Tsange 14:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

EVANSON: The New Leader (novel) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable work by non-notable author. "Has yet to be self-published" pretty much says it all. Too bad there's no speedy delete criterion for books. Woogee (talk) 00:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

- I don't know what happened, but I did step 3. Woogee (talk) 18:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Reno Silver Sox (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Contested prod. Dab page with only two articles; disambiguation is accomplished with hatnotes on both pages and this article with the parenthetical disambiguation is not a plausible search term. Note: The pages were recently moved to Reno Silver Sox and Reno Silver Sox (Golden Baseball League) per my request at WP:RM. —KuyaBriBri 02:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Delete candidate for Template:db-disambig. Boleyn2 (talk) 16:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. Pick a reason... Tone 21:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Tax audit under section 44aba of indian income tac act (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Contested PROD. Appears to be nothing more than a guide on how to complete a tax audit and fails WP:NOTAGUIDE NtheP (talk) 10:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The Powerknobs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Some third-party coverage (at first- and second-party sites), but no indication of actual notability. If this is deleted, they have four album articles that should be deleted as well. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:43, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Best I can do is that they were produced by the same guy that worked with the White Stripes and what other is listed in the main article. But I understand the rules, do what you must. Thanks. Satan165 (talk) 00:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete The article does not pass WP:BAND as written.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:36, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - none of the albums did any significant chart action (not surprising since the first three were self-releases, the fourth was a tribute album released by an independent label, and the fifth essentially escaped from a label that can be generously described as "obscure"). Unfortunately, local fame does not always translate into meeting WP:BAND. I would recommend userification should the originator of the article turn up evidence of the band's performing on a national or regional tour. B.Wind (talk) 05:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy Keep The nomination advances no argument for deletion, preferring a redirect instead. As there is nobody advocating deletion, this qualifies for a speedy keep and discussion on whether or not to redirect can be continued on the article talk page. Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 01:57, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Until You Were Gone (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View AfD)
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The result was keep.  Sandstein  05:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I closed this afd, the previous one ended 6 days ago. Ariel. (talk) 00:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC) Reverted improper (and incomplete) non-admin closure Gigs (talk) 13:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Work_aversion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View AfD)
  • This article does not meet the notability guideline and should be deleted. "Work Aversion" is not listed as a disorder in the DSM-IV nor is is listed as a symptom of any disorder. Many different people are adverse to many different things - I myself have a broccoli aversion - it does not warrant an encyclopedia article.Poorfriendme (talk) 04:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete The concept of "work aversion" does not particularly exist as a distinct phenomenon. The topic itself is a synthesis of various sources (as well as most of the content). Gigs (talk) 12:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: Much of the information in this article is verifiable, not as synthesis, but exactly as the sources say. I already changed the title back to its old one. It is not a disorder, obviously not in DSM-IV. But that's not what this article is about. It does not cleanup. I agree about that. But I feel there is no deadline to do that. The previous afd was just closed less than a week ago and I haven't had much time to yet. Regardless, it seems that the nominator here did not see WP:BEFORE, which requires that an article be cleaned up as opposed to proposed for deletion. Hellno2 (talk) 21:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    • also . . . as someone mentioned below, the nom appears be a single purpose account for this deletion. I have just opened a sock-puppet investigation as a result of these suspicions. It seems awfully strange that less than a week after this was closed as an overwhelming keep, that it would be proposed for deletion again, and User:Gigs is the only one who seems to be obsessively trying to say it should be deleted (rather than just making a fly-by comment). Hellno2 (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
AGF does not have to be 100% of the time, especially when there is not good faith (see WP:IAR). I have evidence that Gigs dislikes this article in particular. You can find it here where he actually rants about it. He just wants to get rid of it. Meanwhile, there are other people who wish to fix the surmountable problems this article has. Per WP:PROBLEM, there is no deadline for doing so. Reproposing it for deletion in less than a week when there was an overwhelming consensus to keep is disruptive. Hellno2 (talk) 13:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
6 to 4 with a mid-AfD rename is not "overwhelming consensus to keep". I dislike it because it is a blatant violation of several major Knowledge (XXG) policies. Poorfriendme probably did not realize it had been so recently nominated, and it seems they did so in good faith. Gigs (talk) 14:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: There are plenty of sources on the topic, going all the way back to ancient times and up until now. This may not be listed in the DSM, but that is not required by the general notability guideline. Tatterfly (talk) 00:20, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: It's useful, and referenced. Ariel. (talk) 00:46, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: Just survived an afd less than a week ago by a 2:1 margin. Improvements have been made since. Nom appears this time appears to be a single-purpose account for this proposal. Could possibly be a sock puppet of the previous nom, who happens to be the first to comment here, as the only delete so far. Dew Kane (talk) 04:19, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Block nominator as vexatious SPA. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
    • The nominator is probably 69.86.106.167, who had commented on the talk page just prior to this nomination, and appears to be acting in good faith. It's not surprising that random people happening upon this pile of crap will want to delete it. It's a disgrace to Knowledge (XXG). Gigs (talk) 13:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note Anyone commenting on this AfD should actually take the time to look at the "sources" and how they are used. The author of this "article" has simply linked to every occurrence of the phrase "aversion to work". Gigs (talk) 13:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. -- Gigs (talk) 13:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- Gigs (talk) 13:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete, and ask the keep voters to actually look at the sources. Most of them are simply "places where the phrase work aversion has been mentioned", not "places where the phrase work aversion has been mentioned... as a distinct phenomenon". Ironholds (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. WP:SYNTH, WP:NOTOPINION, WP:COATRACK. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, and the article's sources don't cover the subject in any detail. Although the page's title was changed, with sections like Causes, Complications, and Treatment, it's obviously a coatrack article for the imaginary "work aversion disorder". I still don't find descriptions like "the term work aversion does not refer to immature teens or young adults who "slack off"" in any way encyclopedic, and most of my arguments from WP:Articles for deletion/Work aversion disorder still apply. — Rankiri (talk) 17:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • keep looking at the sources, they do cover work aversion as a concept. This article should definitely be kept. 2/3 wanted it kept in the last nomination, and given that it was renominated so soon after, probably by a sock of the previous one, it all looks in bad faith. Pink cloudy sky (talk) 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note This "probably by a sock of the previous one" meme needs to be shut down, now. It's in bad faith, unsupported by anything, and deeply unfair to both the nominator of this AFD, and the previous one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:36, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Week keep. Concept seems to be notable in academic literature (article cites ex. Rosen P (1988). "Dumping or work aversion? and Rosen P, Markovchick V, Wolfe R (Jan 1989). "Academic productivity or petulant work aversion?" - I don't see them being debunked in arguments above; also see: this book). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
    • "Academic productivity or petulant work aversion" is classified as an editorial in pubmed, and was written by an ER doctor. I can't access the full text, but I highly suspect that it does not support the claim it is being used as a citation for. "Dumping or work aversion?" is likewise classified as an editorial, again, written by an ER doctor. "Dumping" surely refers to "patient dumping" so the work aversion in question would be referring to an ER staff trying to lighten their patient load, irrelevant to the subject of this article. The book you linked to is apparently a satirical autobiography, the title is intended as self deprecating humor. . If you'd like any more of the supposed sources debunked, please let me know. Gigs (talk) 18:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
      • Thanks :) I cannot access those articles to verify the information, unfortunately; without being able to read them, I think AGF should require us to treat them as valid (but I agree two editorials don't make a concept encyclopedic). I do note that there are no other works using this phrase in titles, but there is a bunch of articles using this term: . I would still like to give the creator and the article benefit of the doubt, as the concept seems encyclopedic, but I have to admit the sources are relatively scarce, and we really could use one source which clearly defines this as a concept. I am changing my vote to "weak keep" for now (I justify my keep as the concept does appear to be used in some academic works). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:04, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
        • Keep in mind too that multiple names may be used, but some of the sources found in this article do indeed describe the topic of Work Aversion as this article describes. Some of them may not use that exact term, but they do indeed describe the concept, and are article solely devoted to that purpose. Plus there are some books that describe it. Some use the term "aversion to work." Some do not use either term at all, but still describe the concept. Nevertheless, they are enough to allow for inclusion without being OR, SYNTH, or the like. Hellno2 (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Weak delete What good content there is on this page is swamped by unsourced, WP:OR-laden content which does nothing to help the encyclopedia. Complete removal of everything unsourced or dubiously sourced would create a barely passable stub, but the article history shows that this would not be accepted so I have no choice but to support deletion. Alzarian16 (talk) 10:31, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I would agree, but the history shows that attempts to remove unsourced content have always been reverted , or has led to citations that don't support the text being reinserted in an attempt to show that it isn't OR . Alzarian16 (talk) 21:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I have to say that the arguments in favor of keeping sound a lot more reasonable. They seem to demonstrate the validity of the concept. But I am highly offended by all the sock puppet accusations. In case you do not know, I have made perhaps thousands of contributions to Knowledge (XXG) over the years under numerous IP addresses. But I do not use an account for them because of my difficulty in remembering passwords. Occasionally, I have created an account just to create an article and used it just that one time. But I soon forget the name of both the account and the password. Yes, these are single purpose accounts I create. But I do it all in good faith. I'm sure there are many other memory impaired users just like me. Knowledge (XXG) allows editing without an account for a good reason. I have trouble enough using email because of my problem. As one who strongly believes in assuming good faith, I disagree with deletion but I do understand the reasons behind creation of an account for deletion. 166.216.130.86 (talk) 16:55, 29 March 2010 (UTC) — 166.216.130.86 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Keep A natural companion to this article appears to the workaholic article (which has survived one AfD), and this article is far better sourced (and I did peruse the sources, and most of them include more than a passing mention of the term alone). Of course there is room for improvement, and I think the authors have made great strides in that direction and should be allowed to keep working on it. Verkhovensky (talk) 19:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete under criterion G7. The editor who started the article has requested its deletion. Had he not done so, I would have deleted the article under WP:SNOW. —C.Fred (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

National Football Record for Average Yards Per Catch / Season - Career (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Un-notable topic, no references, probably written by the subject. —Charles Edward  11:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Delete, as nom —Charles Edward  12:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

delete as per nominator. Jan1naD 15:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete Jeff Rife, who at one time is said to have held a national record among high school football players, still does not appear to be notable enough for his own separate page. One could mention this in the article Point Pleasant, West Virginia. I'd point out that we don't have an article about Point Pleasant Junior/Senior High School or Mason County Schools. Mandsford (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep National Record for Average Yards Per Catch - Season/ Career as instructions by wikipedia have been followed User:Jedii2012
The one instruction that hasn't been followed is the requirement for a source of the information. Other persons who attempt to track such things (for instance this one declare that the record for a season is 25.8 yards per reception, set during the 1996 season by Greg Washington of Nashville, Arkansas, based on 90 receptions totalling 2,321 yards. That's based upon a minimum of 75 receptions in a season. I haven't found anything that refers to Jeff Rife holding a record. Mandsford (talk) 20:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The primary issue is that the article does not establish notability of itself. It needs to reference a book, newspaper article, webpage, something of that nature where this topic is discussed. Check out WP:RS and WP:V for a lengthier explanation. —Charles Edward  19:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Proof? I am reading it out of the book and as to "we" you would be embarassed as you probably are of the Eagles, I know I would be. This story will appear in several national publications in the near future so your opinion doesn't matter. The statistics we compile are based on true facts and we are sorry if you are offended by our style. Maybe you should help the New York Times with their editing. We do not operate according to your timelines. This article was constructed under the guidance of wikipedia not clowns from the peanut gallery. We will be leaving wikipedia and deleting the article due to the ignorance and impatience of certain others. User:Jedii2012
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Blaise Bourgeois (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Football player who has not played at a fully professional level, therefore doesn't meet WP:N or WP:ATHLETE guidelines. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was WP:SNOW keep (non-admin close). I have rewritten the article instead. —what a crazy random happenstance 05:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Hungary–Slovakia relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This page is simply irretrievably lost to nationalism, next to none of it is usable or encyclopaedic in any form. Section 13 as it stands... I just... I don't think I can fit all the policy violations occurring there into just one paragraph. The article overall exhibits blatant and utterly apparent one-sidedness, obvious NPOV violations, wholly unreliable sources, and a reliance on weasel words and scare quotes. I fail to see how sentences like "Since deputy prime minister Robert Fico declared the "wise historism" concept, the history books are getting rewritten in a faster pace than before, and in an increased "spirit of national pride". This "spirit of national pride" is determined by Matica Slovenská, which Krekovič, Mannová and Krekovičováare claim are mainly nothing else, but history falsifications" are meant to document the international relations of Hungary and Slovakia in any meaningful sense whatsoever. The page has continued to exist in this state for a significant length of time, and from an interaction on the talk page appears to have been abandoned by all but hardline nationalist editors pushing their agenda, which has next to nothing to do with the title topic in the first place. The appalling state of this article necessitates a fresh start, it should thus be deleted. (Note: I am not involved in any dispute involving this article.) —what a crazy random happenstance 09:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep. Does it pass WP:GNG? Yes. So don't delete it. AfD is not a place to resolve content issues, unless that issue is that it's too unimportant to have any. If there is a content problem, resolve it with other users. If they are unwilling to talk, well, WP:MEDCAB and WP:MEDCOM exist for a reason. Ironholds (talk) 09:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    Comment - I must also point out that even if the content situation was a valid AfD reason, you haven't made any attempt I can see to correct your perceived problems with the article. As a matter of fact, you haven't edited it since January except to correct a typo. Ironholds (talk) 10:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
CommentHe did edit on the talk page and see the reacton on him and me....Knorrepoes (talk) 16:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - POV issues are not a valid reason to delete an article on an otherwise notable subject. See WP:POLE. When someone pushes POV, push back (civilly, and without violating WP:3RR), and we'll end up with a more or less okay article. - DustFormsWords (talk) 09:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I have to say this nomination is absurd on it's face on the notability of the subject and large number of parallel articles alone. It seems that instead of making suggestion on changing the article, studying and understanding the subject, reading up on it and adding more content he chose to ignore policy and attempt to use a WP:POINT deletion discussion to advocate for removal of a single paragraph of the content from the article. I see a lot of hyperbole here without any explanation ("wholly unreliable sources" which ones?) I would also wonder why would a nominator choose to notify user:Groubani and nobody else of this discussion. It seems that this nomination and it's circumstances is a violation of various policies and I don't think that even the nominator believes that the article will be deleted because he does not agree with some of it's content. Hobartimus (talk) 09:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep The deletion of this article is not a solution. The article needs an attention of unbiased editors, familiar with the topic. Nationalism is one of the greatest curses of this project, a real plague, a real shame. Unfortunatelly, the situation over the article perfectly reflects the real situation. --Vejvančický (talk) 10:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions. —Vejvančický (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Slovakia-related deletion discussions. —Vejvančický (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Although seriously rewriting is necessary ! Article should become in line with all wiki policies. Deleting is not needed, fact is that there are extremists on both sides and thus that there are difficulties in relations between the two countries. That should be mentioned, so there is a reason for the article as such.Knorrepoes (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Bilateral relations between counties sharing a land border are inherently notable. POV issues can be fixed with editing. Yilloslime C 16:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    That's all well and good - except it doesn't seem to have happened in the two years this article has existed, and isn't likely to. I am not advocating this is salted, merely deleted so it can be recreated in a more neutral spirit. The article as it stands isn't going to attract any Slovak or neutral editors to attempt to balance it, as has been expressed on talk. We can act idealistically, keep it, and end up with years' worth of nationalistic garbage, or delete it and allow concerned editors a chance to work towards a neutral consensus-supported article anew. Policy buzzwords ought to reflect our actions, not shape them. —what a crazy random happenstance 17:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    "That's all well and good - except it doesn't seem to have happened in the two years this article has existed, and isn't likely to." It is rare to hear such strong and confident statements which are so ignorant of basic facts. Of course the article is nowhere near two years old. In fact many of the things described in the article didn't even occur two years ago. Many events happened in the second half of 2009 so they could be hardly in Knowledge (XXG) before they happened. In fact the article before the first major edit in 2009 august looked like this. Not much content and "wholly unreliable sources" to object to there huh? Even if we count the creation as a stub it's still not two years. So I would ask the nominator to stop making statements which show how little he knows and how little he cares to find out more about the topic he is discussing. Hobartimus (talk) 18:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    I agree with the nominator in the case that any attempts (like mine) to neutralise the article (to which I came accidently) have been vigorously reversed and thus that it may take a long time to get an acceptable article. I also agree with Hobartimus that many items occurred recently. But many of the things described on the page do not belong there, but on the page of Jan Slota or similar. When I proposed that, it was immediately reversed. So I gave up.Knorrepoes (talk) 19:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Ahem, the stuff said by Slota is included in the article on himself as well. I disagree with the removal of the Slota-related stuff, because even though his debauched acts may seem bizarre, absurd to the highest degree and funny at times (e.g. when he's threatening the listeners on press conferences that the Hungarian army is standing around the corner and is about to overrun Slovakia, therefore they should worry about that instead of his and his party's schemes and embezzlements of public funds which happens almost on a daily basis), unfortunately far too many people take him seriously. Therefore many of the anti-Hungarian sentiments are rooted in his fear-mongering (not to say that the nationalists use precisely his own words to describe Hungarians e.g. as Mongols, mongoloids, Huns etc.). Therefore he's a major contributor to the conflict between the two countries (nations?). CoolKoon (talk) 12:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I did not say to remove it, but deal with it mainly on his page, and on the page on Hungary-Slovakia relations, just give a short summary and refer to his page. Here in Holland we have a similar politician Geert Wilders making similar threats to Islam, Morocco, Turkey etc, and his quotes are mentioned on his page. Not on pages such as Netherlands-Turkey relations (which I see does not even exist) and that is to my opinion the way it should be.Knorrepoes (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Wilders's party the PVV is in opposition, while SNS is a government party since 2006, ruling the country with it's coalition partners. The two is not comparable, a government shapes the events and foreign relations of a country. If this holland party becomes part of Government then it will have an impact on relations with it's neighbors (note how Turkey, Morocco is not bordering the Netherlands, not even on the same continent). Hobartimus (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
There's a slight difference between Wilders' outlashes and those of Slota. The thing is Hungarians are an indigenous population within Slovakia i.e. they were there just as long as the Slovaks themselves. Despite this they are perceived (by Slovaks) as mere "immigrants", who came from....well...."somewhere" in the process of magyarization. Therefore it's a widespread habit of some Slovaks to send Hungarians "to the other side of the Danube" (i.e. other side of the border=Hungary). People such as Slota just capitalize on such reflexes. To give you an analogy, imagine the situation of an extremist in the Netherlands such as Wilder bashing people who speak Frisian and his "fans" recommending them moving to Germany. Well, the same analogy applies to the situation in Slovakia with one exception: even though Dutch and Frisian are somewhat mutually intelligible (I presume), Slovak and Hungarian are not intelligible at all.
You also seem to be kind of ashamed of people such as this Wilders and probably want to silence him by giving him as little media attention as possible. Unfortunately this can't be done with ideas and rhetorics presented by Slota. The thing is, the dominant party of the current government coalition SMER is using the same rhetoric to appeal to its voters (its leader and Slovak prime minister, Robert Fico, in fact, shows much resemblance to Pim Fortuyn), because many people share these ideas and feel some general resentment towards Hungarians and even the language itself (especially those who have never met a Hungarian in person). And these people have quite a few obsessed ones among them, who strive to get as much attention from the mainstream media for their cause as possible. Unfortunately they even succeed because the very same forces are governing the Slovak economy. Therefore the only tool left against this Slota guy is public humiliation e.g. by displaying the absurdity of his own words. I think there's a big difference in the perception of Wilders and Slota in their respective home countries, because people don't resent Slota's ideas even if they resent him in person (due to the fact that he's a thief and thug) and the mainstream media regularly shows his outlashes against Hungarians/Gypsies/homosexuals/political opponents for a "good laugh", ignoring the fact that many people take him seriously. Therefore I think there's no way to silence him. And if you can't, what else can you do besides putting up his wickedness for show? CoolKoon (talk) 21:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: it contains important things. Maybe in the USA these are not known... --Eino81 (talk) 00:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
    Your point assumes that I am American, and that Americans are all ignorant - neither of those assumptions are true. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: Though my opinion on the quality of the article is rather low, deletion of it does not solve anything. --EllsworthSK (talk) 03:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep Deletion of articles is not the answer. Work to better the article, not erase it. Outback the koala (talk) 03:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep As others have said, POV problems are not a good reason to delete an article. I agree that there is an incredible number of problems with the page; the proper solution - painful as it may be - is to address them one by one. Emika22 (talk) 10:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep My very first thought when noticing the AfD notice was: R U nuts?! So in detail: I have to agree with all the others above me that you can't nominate an article for deletion just because you disagree with some or all of its content. Besides do you think that if you stop talking about a problem it'll go away? The problem will remain for sure and will just resurface later. Just to give you a relevant example: in the socialist-era Hungary talking about Hungarians living in the surrounding (also socialist) countries was a taboo. Hungarian politicians speculated that by silencing these facts (and failing to mention it even in history books) the problem will eventually "go away". Well, turns out it didn't. After the east bloc switched to capitalism (to a certain degree :P) this problem has resurfaced again. Not only that, the feelings are just as intense as ever (as if those socialist decades didn't happen at all). So the article shall be here to stay. CoolKoon (talk) 11:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
    I hate to be the one to have to tell you this - but you are biased. We're all biased to some extent, but most of us attempt not to allow our biases to come through in our work. There is as much illogical xenophobic ill-will in Hungary towards Slovakia as there is in the opposite direction, yet the article is decidedly one-way only. Most people who voted 'Keep' have noted that there are problems within the article, and these ought to be corrected regardless of whether this article is deleted or not. Do not mistake the Keep majority as validation of your preferred version of the article. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep per the above. Notability is clearly present. As noted, deletion isn't appropriate for the problems I'm seeing. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - Notable article and deletion is not the answer to problems within the article. EuroPride (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - Per CoolKoon.--B@xter 21:08, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
    I was sort of hoping my AfD nom would make someone actually interested in improving the article - apparently not so. Everyone's content to nod sagely that one day a hero worthy of the land shall rock up on his stallion and rewrite the article, but until that day we're all going to sit around and twiddle our thumbs and circle dance. If every editor who voted Keep had rewritten just one paragraph on the nominated page, we'd have a neutral article by now. Good work, people. PS: I've attempted a rewrite of the article to make it more neutral, let's see how that works. —what a crazy random happenstance 04:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ned Stuart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Insufficient evidence that this actor meets the inclusion criteria for Knowledge (XXG). The references found are to a site where actors post their own details (UK Screen) and to a site which exists to sell things (Weblo). No significant coverage found of this individual. Contested PROD -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 09:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Onani Master Kurosawa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Recreation of an article previously deleted under A7. However his time, i think a proper burial ceremony is warranted.

Rational for deletion: Fail our current inclusions guidelines either the general notability guideline and the specific guideline for books as a doujinshi available freely. The said 4 released tankōbon doesn't exist in Amazon Japan, the serialization publication is very fishy and icing on the cake there is no publisher mentioned anywhere for both. This constitutes a real verifiability issue. In term of coverage there is no entry for this series in the Japanese Knowledge (XXG) nor in Anime News Network users edited encyclopedia however it managed to have an entry in the Japanese Uncyclopedia.

I will gladly renounce to the whole burial ceremony and make full apologize if enough evidences of notability from reliable sources are provided. KrebMarkt 08:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments:

  • mangaupdates.com while probably the most extensive users edited manga bibliographical resource available in English isn't a RS as first it's user editable and second its contains links to websites hosting illegal scanlation.
  • For those wanting to dig for possible evidences of notability, the Onani Master Kurosawa Official page is probably a good starting point.

--KrebMarkt 09:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete Dōjinshi (self published comics) are very rarely notable as they don't recieve coverage by reliable third-party source. Not only is Mangaupdates.com not a reliable source, it is also a website that engages in copyright violations and carries the work in violation of the creator's copyright by distributing illegal scanlations. In fact, I personally thing it should added to the blacklisted. —Farix (t | c) 10:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    • Mangaupdates.com itself does not distribute copyvio scanlations. It does, however, track and index scnaltions and the groups that do the actual copyright violations, so that they can be found. —Quasirandom (talk) 17:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
      • Most manga, even those that have millions of copies of them sold, don't get coverage anywhere. And do we doubt it was published in the magazine listed? Whether something is self published or published by someone else, shouldn't make any difference at all. Dream Focus 12:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
        • Yes, actually. I've never heard of this magazine -- which could just mean it started relatively recently -- and none of the Japanese pages I've looked at have mentioned any kind of serialization outside of the author's website. This would definitely be something requiring sourcing. It certainly seems to be one of the most successful web comics, and to have ancillary media; we don't have much consensus built for how to deal with these things, and they are even more poorly documented in reliable sources than ordinary manga, which makes it difficult to figure out how to proceed. Doceirias (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Google originally gives 3,870,000 results, but then when I check the last page it shows there are only 883. That is strange. On YouTube there are some surprisingly long bits, they showing pages of the manga, and then different voice actors reading the lines, acting the part. You can verify this does exist. Dream Focus 12:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep How notable is Weekly Young VIP? Did anyone search for that magazine in its Japanese name? I say keep, since if it wasn't notable, they wouldn't spend money having a dozen or so people hired as voice actors, and wouldn't go through the trouble of producing that many issues of it. Dream Focus 12:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment I can't seem to find verification that Weekly Young VIP actually even exists. But I'm no master of searching in foreign languages... 159.182.1.4 (talk) 20:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete completely unnotable doujinshi or web comic (which seems in dispute, making it hard to see how its even verifiable). Certainly has no significant coverage in any reliable source and even some unreliable ones. Knowledge (XXG) is not ere for self promotion. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was merge to war on terror. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Long War (21st century) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Merge with War on Terror. This is just another name for WoT. --JokerXtreme (talk) 08:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Not a bad idea in principle, but since the War on Terror article is already quite long, it might be better to start a new sub-article dedicated to the various names of the "war" and the associated controversies, e.g., Names of the War on Terror, and to merge the "Long War" article into the new subarticle. However, this is the wrong forum for discussing a merger proposal. Such proposals should be made on article talk pages, per WP:MERGE. AfD is only for proposing the outright deletion of an article, which is incompatible with merging for reasons of attribution.  Sandstein  09:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Ok, merging was not the right term to use, perhaps. I still think most of the article should be discarded and add only a reference in the WoT article, with maybe a small paragraph. I'm saying that because, for instance the section "The U.S. Military in the Afghanistan war."(yes, it actually has a full stop there) is completely unnecessary. The criticism section is also something similar to the perpetual war section in the Criticism of the War on Terror article. Finally, the origin of the term itself doesn't seem so important, at least to me. And judging by the hits "Long War" has, comparing to WoT hits, it isn't all that notable. --JokerXtreme (talk) 09:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
So, do you also support creating a "Names of the War on Terror" article and put all related stuff there? --JokerXtreme (talk) 11:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Sure. bahamut0013deeds 21:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok then, I'm changing my vote. Not sure if the suggested name is the best option. --JokerXtreme (talk) 22:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • We cannot use whatever name we like. War on Terror is an established name in the press, literature and public and does not have a meaning as broad as the name you are suggesting. --JokerXtreme (talk) 15:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. As is standard practice for deletion discussions, less weight has been given to the !votes of new/unregistered users. Stifle (talk) 10:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Transformative Teacher Education (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I'm somewhat hesitant to nominate this for deletion as it's an interesting read, but as far as I can tell it's pure original research and/or a synthesis. If someone thinks they can rescue this then please do, I just don't have the time to attempt to edit something this huge. Contested prod. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 08:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Request for clarification - Sorry, by "fails WP:OR" do you mean that you are familiar with the sources cited and the article represents a misrepresentation or synthesis of them? Or that you feel that regardless of the content of the sources the claims made in the text are inherently unverifiable? - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - primarily a synthesis of the sources to promote a thesis - not accurately representing the material presented in that various points were aggregated to advance the position presented in the article. I looked up several (not all) of the references via EBSCO Host and JSTOR. (GregJackP (talk) 01:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - Your contributions give me no reason to doubt your good faith so I'll accept your word that the representation of the sources doesn't stack up. I've changed my position above to "delete as OR". Thank you. - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - GregJackP, since you are under the belief that the article is a synthesis to promote a thesis, could you perhaps point me to the thesis statement? Could you specifically point to a couple of the references you looked up via EBSCO Host and JSTOR and show me how the references differ from what is being represented in the article. I feel it's probably easier to rescue this article and remove some of the POV than to completely re-write it from scratch. I don't want my work to go to waste simply because someone feels it's WP:OR or a synthesis promoting a particular point of view.  kgrr 01:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • KEEP - I have also looked up some of the sources from this article and information that I found that was in the wikipedia entry did match some points presented in those sources. I think the problem is more an issue of lack of specific referencing. If the author corrects that, it will be a GREAT article with information that is not collectively presented elsewhere.Katt in FL (talk) 02:05, 24 March 2010 (UTC)katt in FL
  • Hi, Katt in FL. I have no doubt as to your good faith in the above comment, but given that this is your first contribution to Knowledge (XXG) under that account name, in a dispute between you and GregJackP I'm inclined to go with GregJackP. Are you able to provide some specific examples or quotes showing that the article correctly represents the sources? - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - There is a possibility that I am mistaken, given the citation style. It might be a good idea to relist and/or get an expert to look at the article. (GregJackP (talk) 02:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC))
I've already left a message at the WikiProject Education talk page. I'm not aware by name of particular Wikipedians that I could ask for comment but if anyone else is, please let them know we're discussing this. - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Response - I previously read Kitty Kelly Epstein's book & article, information from the listed sources is used in the wikipedia repeatedly although not specifically referenced (I did go back and browse through book & read article again). I have also read the article by Sleeter, there is information from that source in this wikipedia as well, although not referenced directly. I looked up the information on recruiting teachers from outside the U.S. in the newspapers listed, that information is accurately discussed. I also looked up the information on requirements to teach in other countries (referenced at the end of the page as Ingersoll) that information is accurate.Katt in FL (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)katt in FL
  • Comment - katt, it would have been better if you just came out and stated that you participated in creating the article on another website - it calls your above comments into question. (GregJackP (talk) 11:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - It looks like someone is cleaning up the article, mainly formatting the references properly. I agree that an article on this topic is viable, just that the article that existed when I filed this looked very much like OR/synthesis/essay. If it ends up being deleted it would probably be worthwhile to userfy it so that it can be made compliant with guidelines. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 07:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep There seems to be some consensus developing that an article on this topic is viable. I think that there is more here that is useful than is worth deleting. After cleaning up the references a bit, it's evident that the references are representative of the sources and the article is structured well. There are some references which I left in External links for now that are probably references for some more of the material presented. I have not been able to find where they go. The article still needs a good Lead paragraph to introduce the topic. I'm a Systems Engineer and not an educator, so I'm not an authority here. It's not WP:OR since most points being made are backed with references. But it seems to me the article is pushing a POV rather than letting the facts present themselves. Is there another side to this? Perhaps what the article needs is a review by an expert in education. I will continue by wikifying the article.  kgrr 14:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep I think this is a worthwhile topic. Obviously the author needs to add further citations but the article should be kept.````Solace — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.199.87 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep This is a valid wikipedia topic, it is currently being discussed in the educational world. Referencing needs to placed inside the article, it appears the author is working on this. Cited sources that I randomly checked were accurately represented in the article.98.85.67.183 (talk) 18:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Teacher
  • Keep I think this a worthwhile article. It seems that the author is fixing citations so give them a chance to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.48.105.7 (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • comment - I am not the original author, but I am working on cleaning it up so it can be rescued. I have moved all of the references that I could inline into the article. I am now looking at the rest of the references and will find where in the article they belong. I am also wikifying the article (adding wikipedia links to other wikipedia articles) as I go. Any red wiki-links are new wikipedia articles that need to be written (for example Teach Tomorrow in Oakland, Kayleen Beers, Kagan strategies and ideologies ...etc.) These are terms that I did not understand reading the article as a novice in the field. Please feel free to lend me a hand so we can save it before the week is up.  kgrr 22:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • comment - No need to delete the whole article due to "shades of OR". Yes, it needs some work, but it is a notable topic that definitely deserves a Knowledge (XXG) article. If you notice the history, I am working through the article in order to remove the "shades of OR" and clean it up with the help of a few novices. Many of the votes are from distinct IP addresses belonging to teachers that have never edited an article before. Besides, the votes are not a popularity contest, but a consensus opinion.  kgrr 21:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • My biggest complaint above is not "shades of OR" but rather "essay". And not all of the SPAs in here are IPs. Hairhorn (talk)
  • The definition of an essay is vague. It is usually a personal point of view. The article should be devoid of personal view since all of the sentences that created synthesis between articles has been removed (unless we removed missed one or two). Can you now point to anything that provides synthesis?  kgrr 10:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. What on earth is the proposed topic for an encyclopedia article here? This is a vague, rambling review essay, without any apparent or even arguably encyclopedic central topic. It seems to aspire to, and one day might be, OR-by-synthesis, but as it stands the article fails even to achieve that, since that would require it to synthesize its sources into a coherent topic. And while I'm loath to make the accusation, the large number of single-use accounts in this AfD seems to indicate a possible violation of WP:MEAT. -- Rbellin|Talk 22:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
  • comment - The term meatpuppet is derogatory and should be used with care. If you want to accuse me of sockpuppetry, go ahead. I know you are wrong. And I hope you get banished for making false accusations. I have been editing under my nick for a long time. I'm open as to who I am. I don't need to hide behind sock puppets or ask my friends to edit anything for me. kgrr 10:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Whoa there, kgrr. I didn't accuse you of meatpuppetry, as your good-faith editing speaks for itself; this hostile defensive reaction is completely uncalled for. However, it still seems very likely that the large number of single-purpose accounts here is the result of someone canvassing for "votes." What alternative explanation do you propose for the sudden emergence of all these brand-new AfD voters, on this topic alone, who evince little familiarity with Knowledge (XXG)'s guidelines and policies, and make few arguments relevant to Knowledge (XXG)'s deletion criteria? -- Rbellin|Talk 19:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Rbellin, you said "And while I'm loath to make the accusation, the large number of single-use accounts in this AfD seems to indicate a possible violation of WP:MEAT." There are a lot of teachers that have run into the AfD notice because "Transformative Teacher Education" is a current topic in education reform, especially since six whole schools in Rhode Island are being fired because the kids are not learning there although the teachers are following the lesson plans, rubrics and administering the so-called standardized tests to all the school kids. When they come to the article and see that it's slated for deletion, and they read something that draws together what "Transformational Teacher Education" is, they are going to naturally reply with their opinion which is solicited by the AfD tag. However, the details of the policy are not clearly defined. Naturally, many of these teachers have never edited a Knowledge (XXG) article before and thus I would not expect them to know about AfD battles.
The reason I feel a bit defensive here is because I have been showing them the tools to edit this article, empowering them to put the information out there. I assure you I have not rallied anyone for votes on this AfD discussion. I am also very familiar with AfD battles, because I regularly seek out article tagged with AfD that are worth saving and rescue them. Just look through my history and my track record. I have seen several friends that have done the same thing get ousted from Knowledge (XXG) due to similar accusations. The last thing I want is to be accused of WP:MEAT. Is anyone rallying the AfD troops to descend on this article? Where are they all coming from? It seem like the deck is being stacked the other way, too.  kgrr 01:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
First, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about "rallying the AfD troops"; as far as I can see, all the delete !votes here seem to be coming from longstanding Wikipedians, while many of the keep !votes (other than your own!) appear to be single-purpose users. I do appreciate and respect that you're putting some effort into the cleanup and rescue of this article! Still, I have to say that, even at this late date, the article doesn't have a single clearly stated topic, but remains instead a rambling, incoherent essay-like discussion of various apparently unconnected facets of teacher education with no perceptible central encyclopedic subject. And, even putting this aside, I don't see how, even in the best case with a more clearly defined topic, it would ever be able to become anything more than OR-by-synthesis. -- Rbellin|Talk 07:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I am a long-standing Wikipedian, for more than 5 years. So therefore *not* all of the longstanding Wikipedians are united about deleting this article.
Yes, and many of the rest of the users, IPs and named accounts that are for keeping the article are new editors. What else they have in common is that they are educators that have probably used Knowledge (XXG) a lot, but have not really ever had the motivation of editing an article until crisis hits - like an AfD. But simply because they are recently involved does not mean that they are meat puppets or that their contribution to the consensus opinion can be ignored.
We agree in that the lead need a bit more clean-up. It needs to introduce the topic for the lay person. Certainly this needs to be put on the to-do list for the article. I just have not learned enough of the overall topic to write more of a lead.  kgrr 10:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • comment - You say you looked at "many" of the sources. Which ones? So if I get you right, if "deconstructionism" is a challenge to the attempt to establish any ultimate or secure meaning in a text, you are saying that Transformational Teacher Education is a challenge to Teacher Education - there is none. I really don't get how you can conclude that from any of the references. Yes, Transformational Teacher Education is a challenge to today's methods of Educating Teachers, but you don't stop writing Knowledge (XXG) articles about Electric cars because they are a challenge to Gasoline cars, Personal computers because they are a challenge to mainframe computers, etc.  kgrr 16:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. Rambling wall-of-text essay; search term that will never happen. PhGustaf (talk)
  • Keep : After reading this article on Transformative Teacher Education, I feel that there is validity to the research discussed. It is a topic of importance and the contributions made to this article have begun important dialog. One can only hope that more research is done in the near future on this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egm888 (talk • contribs) 03:35, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - Egm888, the reason this article should be deleted is that it is research, hence the references to WP:OR. Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to publish original research. (GregJackP (talk) 22:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - GregJackP I'm sorry, but you don't seriously know what you are talking about. Here is what Knowledge (XXG) says in WP:OR: Knowledge (XXG) does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. All material added to articles on Knowledge (XXG) must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed in the text. This means that Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions. This Knowledge (XXG) article is not original research according to this definition. No one working on this article conducted any experiments, etc. Nor is it looking at the Primary research reports and drawing conclusions from it. It is complete with references to other people's Primary research (the experiments) and Secondary research (people who have done the original work and have published their own opinions, experiences, arguments or conclusions). If there were any elements of synthesis that don't belong in a Knowledge (XXG) article, collectively, I and several teachers that I don't know personally have removed them. If there are any that we have missed, please, let's remove them instead of deleting the article. If I don't for some reason understand the difference between WP:OR/Primary research, Secondary research, and tertiary sources please let's talk about it, because my understanding of this apparently is very different from yours.  kgrr 00:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - kgrr, you make my case for me with this quote from the policy: "This means that Knowledge (XXG) is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions." That is what this article is - see WP:OR and also see WP:SOAP. (GregJackP (talk) 12:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - GregJackP, I agree with this policy completely. There are two kinds of WP:SOAP: , which it's not and WP:SYNTH. The statements that draw together the what various researchers have said into an opinion can and have been removed. If there are more left, let's remove them.  kgrr 12:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • KEEP I am an educator. I am not the author of the article. Transformative Teacher Education is similar to "critical pedagogy," in that it is a concept developed through a body of research and writing. I have read the article carefully. It is not original research. When first posted it had some phrases which seemed like an essay but those have been removed. I have done some editing to enhance the citations. I think it is a good and important article

Leonardnielsen (talk) 04:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)LeonardLeonardnielsen (talk) 04:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment: This article originated as a massive textdump from the single-purpose User:Transformingteachereducation, with the following signature-like line at the end: The following people contributed to this wikispace on transformingteachereducation: Veneschia Bryant Jeffrey Burris ThyJuan Harris Eddy McLachlan LaVoreen A. McPherson Kathryn Mendoza Tamiquia Simon. This led me to Google, which turned up transformingteachereducation.wikispaces.com, a Wiki-hosting site from which the bulk of the article appears to have been cut-and-pasted. Also, several of the single-purpose-account participants in this AfD have account names (or have otherwise signed their posts here) matching usernames on that Wikispace site and/or in the article's original signature. Therefore, though I suspect this material has been copied to Knowledge (XXG) with its creators' permission, it seems to me clear that this material was not written as an encyclopedia article (this may explain its lack of any single coherent encyclopedic topic). It also seems to me that its creators are participating here under several accounts and IPs, without making their relation to the material clear, and without following even basic Knowledge (XXG) policies like "don't sign articles" (much less demonstrate a grasp of WP:SYNTH). Might I suggest, based on this evidence, that this non-encyclopedic essay already has a good home elsewhere on the Internet, and Knowledge (XXG) is not a general-purpose Wiki host? -- Rbellin|Talk 07:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • comment Ok ... so a bunch of educators got together and edited sections of a bigger topic called "Transformative Teacher Education". They used a wiki to do this somewhere else. So what. They don't come with 5-8 years of Knowledge (XXG) experience and with tons of experience with Knowledge (XXG) policy. Help them along instead of destroying their work. The topic is very valid to educators, and it is very coherent. The article simply lacks the lead to tie it all together for you. Check out the article Transformative learning. It has similar problems. Are you going to rush out there and delete it now? Personally, I think you are bent on deleting another article and are grasping at straws to justify your reasoning (rather than having an open mind towards correcting this one).  kgrr 10:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - I find it disingenuous that one of the main authors of the article on the Transforming Teacher Education wiki above comes to Knowledge (XXG), comments about looking up the references and states that the article is not WP:SYNTH or WP:OR, without declaring their own role in the creating the original article. At the very least, it calls into question whether the article is being presented with a WP:NPOV. The article is advocating for change, violating WP:SOAP. It is not appropriate for Knowledge (XXG). (GregJackP (talk) 11:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - First, no one has proven that any of the original authors are indeed working on this article now. And now there you make pretty strong accusation. I find this rather offensive. Why don't you judge the article where it is *now* and see for yourself if the material in the article meets WP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV. If there are problems with those kids of issues, we can correct them.  kgrr 13:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • The table you posted below shows exactly what I was talking about - Kat in FL participated in the creation of the article at the wikispaces site, then participated in the editing of the article here at Knowledge (XXG), and voted on it above. All of this is permissible, but the way that she phrased her comment here is as if she were an uninterested party instead of one of the authors of the article. Leonardnielsen stated his involvement in editing the article up front, and then stated his rationale for keeping the article, which is the way that it should occur. There are a couple of other editors that can be connected with both the original article and the current WP article, for the sake of openness, they should declare those interests. The article still has problems, including promoting a change in the way that teachers are selected and trained. If taken to a WP:NPOV approach, the criticisms of this approach would be addressed, which has not happened. (GregJackP (talk) 14:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
  • I took down the table, it's really not fair to people. Kat_in_FL never made comments about synthesis or original research. Read her comments again. Egm888 may also be one of the original authors. He also had no idea about the policies behind synthesis or original research were. But instead of harping on who did what, who is one of the original authors, who needs a red mark on their forehead etc, let's talk about the issues that need to be taken care of. Here is what I'm hearing so far:
1) The lead needs improvement. I am gathering journal papers and valid secondary papers that define Transformative Teacher Education. The problem I'm having with the lead is that the various scientists don't exactly agree (as is stated in the lead already) what exactly TTE really is. Perhaps we can have some help of the educators, which I hope we have not offended away from Knowledge (XXG). I seriously hope they stay and learn. Unfortunately AfDs seen to often get painful.
2) "promoting a change in the way that teachers are selected and trained." Is this a general problem or in a specific paragraph?
3) The article needs to be checked for WP:NPOV.

 kgrr 14:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment - To be WP:NPOV one would have to include the criticism by Hill and Boxley of Transformative Teacher Education being a proposal that advocates a "Marxist and ecosocialist manifesto" for teaching, JCEPS:Vol 5, No 2 (2007) - this is apparently a controversial subject, and as currently written does not begin to meet WP standards. (GregJackP (talk) 17:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - OK fair enough. 1) You seem to agree. 2) I heard no response, so it sounds like the WP:SOAP and WP:SYNTH issues are gone. and 3) You did find an additional critic whose words need to be included. Thanks. I also think we agree that it is a valid and broad subject with international appeal. And, yes, the subject may be controversial, but that is no reason to delete the article. At least we seem to be gaining some consensus instead of throwing accusations around. But I can't do all of the work. Someone will need to read the Hill and Boxley article and will include their criticism into the article into the right places. Unless there are further objections, I think we have a list of what needs to be done to rescue this article from here.  kgrr 23:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I still believe that WP:SOAP applies - the article advocates for a change in the way teachers are trained; WP:SYNTH also applies - the intro states that there are several different approaches which the article combines into one approach, with no reference provided to support that combined the differing approaches. I don't think the article can make that leap without a major re-write that clearly outlines each individual approach separately (which it does not do at the present time) and lays out the objections of other education experts. At the present time, the article should still be deleted. (GregJackP (talk) 23:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment I know this is a big leap of faith, but there are many articles in Knowledge (XXG) that are about advocating a change and not actually advocating the change. E.g. Health care reform in the United States, Pickens Plan, Carbon offset, Carbon credit, and Race to the Top just to mention a few. The article is *about* various transformative proposals on how teachers could be trained, but it is really not urging people to follow the various transformative proposals. Just because an article is about change, does not make it WP:SOAP.
  • Second, the article is *not* combining any of the approaches with a synthesis. In fact, the approaches are laid-out in different paragraphs that are not being tied together into a synthesis or a conclusion.  kgrr 01:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • COMMENTS - just a few things I need to get off my chest...I feel they are appropriate in light of what has been said above about me...but if they ARE NOT...feel free to remove them...
1 - GregJackP stated this article was a “synthesis of the sources” & “not accurately representing the material” & “various points were aggregated to advance the position presented in the article” because he has “looked up several (not all) of the references”...I responded that “I have also looked up some of the sources from this article and information that I found that was in the wikipedia entry did match some points presented in those sources. I think the problem is more an issue of lack of specific referencing”.I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PROBLEM WITH MY COMMENT IS…IT IS COMPLETELY TRUE…I DID LOOK UP REFERENCES, AND THEY WERE ACCURATE…I DO THINK THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH THE ARTICLE WAS THE LACK OF IN-LINE REFERENCES…WHICH IS WHAT I STATED REPEATEDLY TO THE AUTHOR PRIOR TO THEM POSTING IT ON WIKIPEDIA
2 - DustFormsWords requested that I “provide some specific examples or quotes showing that the article correctly represents the sources?”...I responded by providing a list of what I know was accurate because I was the one who had presented that information, as well as checking some information that sounded like items presented in this article without citations by other people…I also went in and put some of the references in that should have been there
3 - GregJackP stated that I was being “disingenuous” because I am “one of the main authors of the article on the Transforming Teacher Education wiki”....I NEVER SAID THAT I WAS NOT A CONTRIBUTOR TO THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THE ARTICLE…NO BODY ASKED ME…I DID NOT STATE THAT I BUMPED INTO THE ARTICLE WHILE MOSEYING AROUND THE WIKIPEDIA
4 - GregJackP stated that I said “the article is not WP:SYNTH or WP:OR”...I DID NOT STATE THAT OR ANYTHING ELSE OF THAT NATURE…I SIMPLY POINTED OUT THAT THE INFORMATION THAT I LOOKED-UP WAS ALL ACCURATE…WHICH IS STILL THE CASE
5 - GregJackP stated that I had claimed the article was “not WP:SYNTH or WP:OR, “without declaring” my “own role in the creating the original article” ... NOT TRUE…I NEVER SAID THE ARTICLE WAS NOT WP ANYTHING…THEREFORE THE WHOLE POINT GREGJACKP WAS TRYING TO MAKE IS RATHER IRRELIVENT…MAYBE PEOPLE SHOULD READ COMMENTS BY OTHERS MORE CAREFULLY PRIOR TO MAKING FALSE…AND RUDE STATEMENTS
6 - FURTHER I WOULD LIKE TO STATE THAT I NEVER CLAIMED NOT TO BE A CONTRIBUTOR TO THE ORIGINAL WIKISPACE ARTICLE…THE ARTICLE WAS PUT UP ON WIKIPEDIA BEFORE THE ISSUES I HAD POINTED OUT WITH THE ORIGINAL (NAMELY THE LACK OF IN-LINE REFERENCES) WERE ADDRESSED…AND I STATED IN MY ORIGINAL COMMENT THAT I FELT THAT NEEDED TO BE CHANGED BY THE AUTHOR WHO PUT IT UP IN WIKIPEDIA…MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT I STILL CAN VOTE TO KEEP IT…AT THIS POINT MANY OTHERS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE ARTICLE AS WELL…DOES THAT MEAN THAT THEIR VOTE SHOULDN’T COUNT EITHER???
7 - Just so you all know…the whole point of the wikispace was for a group of educators to work collectively to create an article for the wikipedia…a collaboration of minds to create an article with factual information that is not often presented collectively for the purpose of posting it to wikipedia…which we did…what a terrible thing...if that is against some wikipedia policy none of us were aware of it...
8 - katt_in_FL is the tag I use everywhere...if I was concerned with being associated with the wikispace I would have picked something different...It is not like the wikispace was taken down...but as stated above...the whole point of the wikispace was to create this page in wikipedia...although some people seem to be bent of having it deleted no matter what the consensus Katt in FL (talk) 23:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)katt_in_FL
Comment I think we need to move forward from the accusations - he said / she said, etc. GregJackP and RBellin, please go back to the basic principle of assuming good faith WP:AGF. All the false accusations have done so far is to agitate people that would have used their time to correct this article. If you continue with it, I will have someone else put an end to it. The editors of the initial article were simply collaborating to create a new Knowledge (XXG) article. They did it in wikispace instead of using a sandbox somewhere. On the other side, Katt in FL, I'm sorry to see that you have been angered by these accusations of meat puppetry and of various other allegations. AfD debates can be difficult because some people that want to enforce the rules really don't understand them themselves. We need to concentrate on improving the article and not get distracted by their behavior. If it gets much worse, I will call them on it with an arbitration. I have played this game too many times with the Knowledge (XXG) Thinkpol: Brooks–Iyengar algorithm - I'm supposed to give it a "Popular Science makeover". Can I teach someone computer science by sound bytes? Hot stain - a new word to describe areas in the world where there is no more drinking water. Promoting a new word ... Hey, you want to buy a new desert? Dean Willard - a behind the scenes politician running for state representative. ... etc. etc. one article at a time. Stick with it. I'm learning new issue after issue by rescuing good articles. All of us: We need to let it go now and behave in a civil manner. WP:CIVIL.  kgrr 02:46, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - I agree that we need to focus on the article and not personalities, however I stand by my comments in this AfD discussion. I'm sorry that Kat in FL was offended by my comments, it was not my intent, but the points still are valid - I believe that she should have declared her interest. I still assumed good faith due to her being new to WP, which is why I did not refer this to the noticeboard. I would have thought that you would also AGF for those of us that have problems with the article as written. If you wish to call for an arbitration, please do so, I have no worries about what I have posted or the concerns I have raised, but I would hope that you are willing to look at the issues of concern instead of what appear to be (but I hope are not) an effort to shut down conversation on the issues. I still believe that the article has problems, specifically in promoting a position to change teacher education in a way that is a synthasis of the various articles cited. Statements such as "it is argued" and "it is not reasonable to assume" without presenting the counter-argument do not present a neutral point of view, but instead merely advocate for the changes in teacher education that seem to be preferred by one side of the argument. It is still my position that the article as currently written is not appropriate for Knowledge (XXG). (GregJackP (talk) 14:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC))
  • Comment - GregJackP, Thank you for the apology. My warning on making false accusations and becoming uncivil still stand. I will take it to arbitration if it gets out of hand. OK ... So we agree to disagree on the WP:SOAP / WP:SYNTH issue. Again, a soapbox is usually opinion without references and synthesis is opinion with references bound together with conclusions. I have worked through the article to remove concluding paragraphs and sentences. I have also worked the article through to question weasel phrases such as "some experts", "experts say", "it is argued", etc. I missed one statement with a "it is not reasonable to assume" in the teaching methods paragraph. I have marked it with a {{fact}} tag. The synthesis will have to come from a secondary source (which is allowed to do this) or be deleted. All that needs to be done here is to properly attribute the synthesis to remove the POV. Depending on how severe the issue is, we may need to find someone that disagrees with the conclusion that is being drawn. However, I don't think that's an issue in this case. Since you have EBSCO Host and JSTOR access, could you please look up the Tatto1997 article and tell me what her definition of Transformative Teacher Education is for the introduction. It's a widely quoted article on TTE. Ditto for GreenmanDieckmann2004.  kgrr 17:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - I am an educator in Western WA of disadvantaged kids. I think the article reads well and brings out a lot of facts in one article about Transformative Teacher Education. I agree with kgrr. It has a couple of flaws that can be corrected. I have never edited an article before, but I would like to vote keep. 209.206.252.239 (talk) 05:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Keep All I am not convinced that a merge is the best solution, but a reasoned, consensus based merge discussion with greater participation would not be unappropriate for these articles. Mike Cline (talk) 15:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Utility infielder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I am also nominating the following related pages:

Fourth outfielder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Corner outfielder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Unreferenced stub that is redundant to utility player. Should be merged to it. For the same reasons, nominating fourth outfielder and Corner outfielder, which are redundant outfielder. I will rescind this nomination if the articles are referenced and lengthed, much in the same way Cornerman (basketball) and Combo guard are for basketball Purplebackpack89 06:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. — Gongshow  15:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think the proper approach is for the nom to determine if it can be lengthened and referenced, much as it is the nom's responsibility to review for references that could be put into the article before nomination an article, and not only look at those that appear in the article itself. These are such basic terms, widely used, that I support them having their own articles. As to the criticism of the articles, the policy that comes to mind is SOFIXIT.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Nope. If people create sloppy articles, it isn't automatically my responsibilty to clean them up (SOFIXIT currently links to BOLD; and the bold action here would have been redirection). You talk about the references that appear in the articles themselves? There are no references, which in itself can be a criteria for deletion. I also contest your assertion that they are basic, widely used terms, because they just aren't. In the baseball positions table, the "basic" positions are defined as catcher, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, RF, LF, and CF. These are not basic positions. You also don't address the redundency concern. Purplebackpack89 18:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Rather than waste much time on this, I'll let others share their views, and just address one of the various points Purple makes where I differ. He contests my statement that "utility infielder", inter alia, is a widely used term. I believe that the 52,700 ghits, 29,600 gnews hits, and 700 gbooks hits support my statement.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  1. Google hits doesn't necessarily mean notability...I got 16K hits for cheese pants
  2. The hits are very small compared to the "basic" positions...DH and left fielder get 3-400K (8x) and first baseman gets over one million (20x)
  3. Utility infielder and utility player are almost exactly the same thing; they don't need two articles, especially since one of them is an unreferenced stub. It's unbelieveable that you want to keep an article of such low quality Purplebackpack89 20:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • You miss two points. 1) The reference to the 53,000 google hits was specifically to show that your assertion that the term is not widely used was incorrect. That is all. As I said, so as not to waste time, I sought only to address that markedly incorrect assertion. 2) As to the quality of the article, the onus is on the nom to ascertain if there are not refs from which a proper article could be written. The test is not whether it has already been written. Articles, for which sufficient refs exists (if added by the nom or someone else, though there is a special onus on the nom to explore this before the nomination) need not be deleted or redirected. Rather, you are welcome to fix it. But AfD is not a tool for you to force others to do so. Happy Tuesday.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The article is still redundant and a stub. Your "I have to fix it" argument is completely bunk. I should have redirected it. In case you missed it, my vote is strong redirect. Purplebackpack89 22:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Keep All of this excess bold is really making my eyes hurt, besides being unnecessary. That said, the article as is needs to be referenced, but that's easily accomplished, as there are quite a few works out there that reference the topic. AfD isn't the appropriate forum for this; it should have been tagged for cleanup instead. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:35, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Four references now in the article, fully formatted. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Fourth outfielder and corner outfielder are still unreferenced. And I still don't see any reason why the articles shouldn't become sections of Utility player and outfielder, instead of the short, redundant stubs they are now. Purplebackpack89 18:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry I can't do all of them at once! It's not like this is just some kind of slapdash process. They shouldn't be part of the articles you name because they are distinct parts of a whole, just like first baseman and second baseman shouldn't be part of infielder. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:44, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Fourth outfielder also now has four references, and there is an entire Baseball Digest article on fourth outfielders as one of them, so it can easily be expanded. That's a definite keep. I know that I can find references for corner outfielders as well; just can't do it now. Also, please keep in mind, when you're using the word "stub" derisively, that "A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text which is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject, but not so short as to provide no useful information, and it should be capable of expansion". That is what these are. They don't provide a lot of coverage right now, but they are certainly capable of expansion in the future. Just so happens that a lot of us are a lot busier with other projects than we are with our utility position articles. If you want to help, why not expand the article instead of saying it needs to be merged to a tangentially related topic? KV5 (Talk • Phils) 19:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, for starters, I don't think it's just tangential... Purplebackpack89 20:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
It's part of a whole. If we were ever to do a featured topic on outfielders, all of the types, including left fielder, center fielder, right fielder, corner outfielder, and fourth outfielder would all be part of it. All of those articles are distinct and separate topics and that's why they are separate articles. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. Agree whole-heartedly w/all Killer said. Encourage nom not to (ab)use this process in the future for articles that only need clean-up -- he should either fixithimself in the future, or tag it as Killer mentioned. AfD is not appropriate. For that reason, these would have been keeps whether or not Killer did his good work -- keep votes were not dependent on the refs being added.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
First off, you've voted and commented now. Secondly, you forget I nommed them as well because of their utter redundency, not just because of their refs. If you really think I've abused the process, ANI me Purplebackpack89 05:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
And you have commented six times; not sure what the relevance of that is. I would urge you to withdraw the nomination, to save others wasted time.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I will withdraw it if five people vote keep. As of now, the vote is 2-1. It's no landslide, and there are perfectly acceptable arguements for its merger Purplebackpack89 05:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Setting arbitrary criteria don't really do you any good, because it's not up to you. It's up to the closing administrators. Since the articles clearly have potential for expansion and can be referenced, your platform has lost three legs and is teetering on its broken fourth. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think the case for these articles as stand-alone topics is thin at best, but good work on expanding and adding references. I don't particularly mind the deletion debate, but agree that maybe a merge discussion would have been more helpful in the long run. Also, remember that this isn't a vote - we're not looking for a particular score to keep the articles. If the arguments have merit, then the closing admin will note that merit. I think everyone, above, has made their position quite clear, and it's getting a little heated. We should have some hot dogs and a beer, perhaps, and sit back to see how things end up. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Offering me a beer at work, now that's dangerous! KV5 (Talk • Phils) 13:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Use Corner Outfielder as a disambig, merge utility infielder and fourth outfielder into utility player. - They are reasonably likely search terms, but I think merging the content should be sufficient to avoid redundancy. A corner outfielder page can briefly define the two positions and disambig to them. matt91486 (talk) 01:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
A fourth outfielder is not necessarily a utility player.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
I was saying fourth outfielder to outfielder Purplebackpack89 00:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Self-immolation#2000s. I've already merged in the information. Black Kite 18:57, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Eleftheriya Fortulaki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a memorial. DimaG (talk) 01:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  06:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Michael New (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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WP:BLP1E, only known for refusing to serve under the UN. Nableezy - 06:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. --Nableezy 06:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - BLP1E is for people who have passing fame for a single event and are otherwise likely to remain of low profile. I was going to argue that the book written about New lifted him out of the "likely to remain of low profile" category, except that upon further research it appears to be written by a related party ("Daniel New") and be largely an attempt at self-promotion. Given that there does not seem to be a relevant main article to redirect to, delete seems appropriate. - DustFormsWords (talk) 10:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
New's website identifies Daniel as his father (also that book is self-published). nableezy - 14:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

HTF-15 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Biofuel 5 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Both of these articles are bordeline hoaxes perpetrated by a single-purpose account. They claim to be products created by Chris Edgecombe (whose article is in the middle of an AfD itself), but Google can come up with no such products period outside of articles that backlink to Knowledge (XXG) -- well, actually, Biofuel 5 is briefly mentioned here, but not in the same context as Mr. Edgecombe. Erpert (let's talk about it) 05:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Shy Ronnie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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finishing AfD for User:67.180.84.52 based on the IP's prod tag "No indication of notability" CTJF83 chat 06:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The Witch's Promise (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:36, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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Vote NO Tillywilly17 (talk) 16:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

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The result was delete by User:Cirt. Jujutacular  21:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Christian Rhymes to a Rhythm (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Demos are assumed non-notable by WP:MUSIC. I didn't tag this {{prod}} because of its length. Does this seem keepable? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Directional Michigan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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While the term is used in pop culture, it is not a "real" definition and IMO should not be included in Knowledge (XXG). The article as it exists currently is made up of a synthesis of different sources. Most of the comments are sourced and true, but none of the statements in the article are directly related to "Directional Michigan", except those that mention Direction Michigan in various "poll". If the synthesized statements are removed, then all that remains is essentially: "Direction Michigan schools are bad at sports." Knowledge (XXG) is not a dictionary of pop culture/slang terms, which is what "Directional Michigan" is. Leave that to Urban Dictionary. X96lee15 (talk) 03:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Keep last discussion was closed as "no consensus" on 6 October 2006. Now, approximately 3 1/2 years later there are many more reliable sources to support the notability of the term. Consider ,
Comment The references to the term isn't synthesis, but the discussion about "staying competitive with non-BCS teams, but struggling against BCS teams", the entire third paragraph beginning "In recent years", the paragraph about Northern Michigan and the final paragraph about USC, UCF and USF are all synthesis. None of the references in those sections directly relate/reference "Directional Michigan".
If you remove all the areas I listed here, then all you have is a definition, albeit a sourced one, but that's all it is. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Response then you should edit the article and not delete the article, particularly since your issues appear to apply to only part of the article and not the subject matter itself.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - I have concerns about "File:Directional_michigan_50.png" used in the article too, particularly its fair use rationale (clearly the image cannot be obtained from "Directional Michigan"), its description (what is it exactly?) and its use in the article. But I'm not yet clear on how to notify problems with images (or, in fact, how to link to them without causing them to display). - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete - X96lee15 makes a good point about synthesis sections of the article. Further, most of the "sources" are really just uses of the term. Show me something that has been written about "Directional Michigan", not just places where the term has been used, and I'll reconsider. cmadler (talk) 12:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
    • Comment Pretty much any of the ESPN.com bottom 10 rankings that include "directional michigan" in the rankings includes a section where the grouping is "written about". One example of many.
      • Well, that link you gave exactly makes my point. They used the term "Directional Michigan" to refer to the three schools, but they did not write anything about the term "Directional Michigan". cmadler (talk) 15:36, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
        • Huh? "Toxic:" Western was clobbered by Ball State. Eastern lost to Div. I-AA Eastern Illinois. Central disappointed against bye." clearly explains the three schools that make up the term and how they relate to each other.--Paul McDonald (talk) 16:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
          • That is an example of use of the term, not an explanation of the term. In this context, it's a primary source, which is pretty much all this article has. I acknowledge that people are using the term, but I don't see anything suggesting that people are writing about the term, which is what we need to have a secondary source. Without secondary sources, the article fails the notability guideline. cmadler (talk) 18:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
            • Response Context is a valid method of establishing definition--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
              • But that's the issue. The article is merely a definition and why it should be deleted per WP:NOTDICT. No reliable sources have written anything of substance about "Directional Michigan". It's just a term / definition that has no Knowledge (XXG) / encyclopedic value. — X96lee15 (talk) 12:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
                • Yeah, after cmadler removed the large portion of the article-check the history! There is an editor removing information from the article and at the same time taking a stance for deletion of the article. Nice trick.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
                  • I'm following your above suggestion about editing the article: marking OR and SYN in places where it seems possible that a source might be found, removing sections that clearly veer off topic. cmadler (talk) 13:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
                  • Cmadler is right; he did exactly what you recommended. The bottom line is "Directional Michigan" is a term that is used but there is no coverage ANYWHERE except to use the term as a definition. Because of that and WP:NOTDICT is why this article should be deleted. — X96lee15 (talk) 14:31, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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                    • Clarification I suggested editing the article to polish the content, not deleting 1/3 of its content and then saying "look, there's nothing in the article but a definition--let's delete it!"--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. —Paul McDonald (talk) 14:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep The article is sourced and critical for the completeness of the topic of college football (specifically DI-FBS). The article does not merely define the "slang" term, but shows the useage, creation, function and general education of the term. Reading the article as-is just before this writing, many of the scope creep parts of the article have been cleaned up. My preference would really to expand the article to be generally about Directional schools, since the article could be bigger and handle several cases at once. The problem is the article should thus be named "Directional ______" where the ____ would be Michigan, Florida, or otherwise as appropriate. Perhaps "Directional Schools" with the others all redirecting to it may be then appropriate. Nonetheless, the topic is important for full and complete information about the subject. That is, you cannot fully learn about college football (DI-FBS) without also learning about this topic and not having it would be an incomplete hole in the subject. MECU≈talk 17:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - This article is linked from 4 other articles, and those links were all added by Paul McDonald within the last two days. Lack of incoming links suggests that this article is not only not critical for the completeness of the topic of college football, but that the article might be entirely unneeded. cmadler (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Response Lack of incoming links suggests that Knowledge (XXG) is far from complete. Who cares who added them and when they were added?--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep: Useful and sourced for what it is. I would be interested to know the first published use of this term. Google news archive shows it used in Jan. 1989., "Georgetown playing its usual collection of patsies and Michigan trouncing every directional Michigan in the book, from Western to Central to Eastern".--Milowent (talk) 14:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Not an atlas?--Milowent (talk) 20:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. The consensus is that it would be best to re-write the articles altogether, if reliable sources are ever found. Paul Erik 03:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Bhag Singha Purohit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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I have no idea what this article's actually about; it appears to be a narrative story, and while there are a few book hits for close spellings, the exact spelling has no book hits. Even if someone else finds some sources, the article would require a complete rewrite. Shadowjams (talk) 03:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Per below, I've nominated Bhai Singha Purohit, and included it in this debate. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 20:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Bhag Singha Purohit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • The prose style is fundamentally unencyclopedic.
  • The correct name of the individual appears to be "Bhai Singha Purohit" and an article by that name already exists, containing identical text.
  • Good faith Google searches for "Bhai Singha Purohit" turn up relevant results but none that appear to be "significant coverage in reliable independent sources" per WP:N.
  • The prose style makes me strongly suspect that it's a direct cut-and-paste from another text although I'm unable to identify the source. It's a cut-and-paste from SikhWiki, and although it's apparently CCBY licenced I'm not entirely convinced that makes it acceptable to copy their text wholesale.
So, really, a lot of problems here. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have added an AFD nomination to Bhai Singha Purohit, and directed it here - and I would add it to this nomination so that we can have one debate on the merits of the content. No need to do this twice, and this debate began less than a day ago, so I don't think it unreasonable to combine the two nominations. As for my recommendation... UltraExactZZ ~ Did 20:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete both as unencyclopedic content. I can't find sources for a notable topic of either title - though feel free to point me in the right direction, if such sources exist. If the articles are to be kept, then Bhag Singha Purohit should be the redirect - but I don't know how we would really justify that. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 20:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete g4, didn't know about the earlier AFD, thanks. NawlinWiki (talk) 12:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

ShaneDawsonTV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Yet another Youtube artist. No sources cited to support claims of notability. Prod tag removed without explanation or addition of sources. NawlinWiki (talk) 02:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • G4 Speedy Deletion Subject has already been deleted to the point of salting on Shane Dawson, so just someone trying to get around that block with a different title. Salt this title and ShaneDawson to discourage further attempts to recreate. Nate • (chatter) 05:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete G4 as "a sufficiently identical and unimproved copy, having any title, of a page (Shane Dawson) deleted via a deletion discussion". Obviously non-admins can't view the deleted page but given this one is an unsourced stub I'm willing to assume it's not an improvement on the original. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Skye Regan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Who is this person? Doesn't seem relevant. Article reads like it was written by the subject as a means of self-promotion/narcissism Zappaphile (talk) 02:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment Seems to have a lot of credits listed at IMDB, though I can't see anything that isn't a minor role - I know IMDB isn't reliable for actual facts, but if they're correct and can be verified, might a lot of small roles add up to sufficient notability? (PS: I've removed several wikilinks from the article, as they were to irrelevant articles that just happened to have the right name) -- Boing! said Zebedee 10:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment What about bits like "Skye has been in the film and television industry for a couple years now. It began first, as an entrance to acting and improv comedy at a young age and soon sprawled out into various facetsSkye studied Television Broadcasting at school where she directed and produced live television and radio shows. She then landed an amazing internship with CHUM City at Star! Productions, where she had the opportunity to pitch episode concepts and edit scripts"? It seems obvious she wrote this herself as a means of self-promotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.15.55.66 (talk) 15:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Worlds biggest lightsaber flashmob (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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The event does not appear to warrant a stand-alone article. At best, this might rate a mention in the flash mob article, assuming the "world's largest" claim is verifiable. Ckatzspy 02:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:EVENT. That policy provides that for a one-off event to be notable despite the provisions of WP:NOTNEWS it requires "significant impact over a wide region, domain, or widespread societal group" and/or be "a precedent or catalyst for something else of lasting significance". "World's biggest lightsaber flashmob" fails both criteria by a large margin. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete, I cannot imagine how this one-off event would be notable. Knowledge (XXG) is not the daily news. JIP | Talk 06:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete: But fun nevertheless - The video on YouTube has 200k views. Would be nice if it didn't contain any music copyright vios and could be uploaded and included in an article on social media or star wars;-) Stephen B Streater (talk) 08:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete Under the name "World's biggest foo event" it seems doomed to obsolescence as soon as someone else organises a bigger one next year.
As an article on a large flashmob at Carboot Circus, it would seem to have about as much notability as the zombie walk at its opening. As for that, a referenced mention within the Broadmead article would seem appropriate, but not a stand-alone. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:48, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Delete. Facebook and Youtube are the only links. Rin tin tin 1996 (talk) 00:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus with leave to speedy renominate. listed for 22 days with no arguments for deletion aside from the nominator but not enough participation to determine consensus. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Nanogel_(insulation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View AfD)

The article does not add anything of encyclopedic value. The information posted is general and pertains to any brand of aerogel glass, and should therefore be written under the "uses" section of the aerogel article. The article should be deleted for being commercial and biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OstermannH (talk • contribs) 2010/03/07 09:15:35

  • Notability isn't asserted in the current version of the article, however there is some coverage from reliable sources, possibly enough for it to meet the relevant guidelines. Some of the claims need sourcing, but if they are inaccurate they can be removed. Also what you have suggested implies merging to aerogel; if this is your intention, it isn't necessary to nominate the article for deletion (see Knowledge (XXG):Proposed mergers). snigbrook (talk) 20:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Porno (artist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Totally non-notable artist. No hits, no albums on notable labels, and not a single hit in Google News. Drmies (talk) 01:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. (non-admin closure) CTJF83 chat 01:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Hans Lindahl (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Unsourced WP:BLP from 2007 encountered during CAT:BLP cleanup. The two sources in the article appear to be self-published, and a Google search discovers no reliable sources covering the subject but for a snippet from a journal that confirms his existence. Currently fails WP:BLP, WP:BIO.  Sandstein  21:47, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment Lambiek's Comiclopedia is a valuable resource for comics artists used on all sorts of other articles as they are experts in the field. Also looking at the Norwegian version it appears to suggest he has won a couple of prizes but we'd need someone who actually reads Norwegian to confirm this, but it'd certainly be a useful tick in the notability box. (Emperor (talk) 15:54, 9 March 2010 (UTC))
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The result was no consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Nichlas Vilsmark (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Advert for non-notable florist Orange Mike | Talk 01:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

  • Delete - The information in the article appears to be factual and I would have thought a florist with those credentials was about as notable as a florist could get. Unfortunately the test is WP:N - significant coverage in reliable independent sources. The sources quoted in the article are uniformly either not "significant coverage" or not "reliable independent sources". Good faith Google searches for "Nichlas Vilsmark" and "Vislmark florist" turn up literally thousands of relevant hits but I can't for the life of me find any constituting significant coverage in reliable independent sources. They all seem to be just directory listings and promotional placements. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete I have to agree with the above comments - no significant coverage in the third party sources. This project is not intended for promotion. --Vejvančický (talk) 21:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep As with 3rd-world bios, one has to be realistic here. How many floral critics are there? We only have about 6 florist bios, including one politician who had a shop for a year. If the subject area was better covered, no doubt he would feature in reviews. There are hundreds of web-hits but all advertising. Johnbod (talk) 23:31, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep The first delete indicates the subject is "about as notable as a florist could get". If the standard application of WP:N leads to deletion, we are faced with the prospect of not having articles on florists, regardless of their prominence in their field, or to decide that, as stated at the top of the guideline, we should apply "common sense" and retain the article as one of the "occasional exceptions". There are third party sources given. There are also print sources, where significant coverage is indicated. Ty 00:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry, what I said included the phrase "I would have thought". I'm clearly not an expert on florists or press coverage of them, but this isn't the place to attempt to change WP:N. I understand wanting to say "reliable coverage of this topic is poor, so let's abandon the rules about reliable coverage", because there's a similar problem with coverage of tabletop roleplaying games, but you can't make unreliable sources reliable just by wishing them so. If you feel florists should get more coverage on Knowledge (XXG), go out and start a reliable press organisation and cover them. But Knowledge (XXG) isn't the place to start a revolution. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
  • No change to WP:N: it, like all guidelines, has always been subject to "common sense" and "occasional exceptions". There is no abandoning rules of reliable coverage: WP:V is a mandatory, core policy, and is met in the article. As I pointed out, "There are third party sources given. There are also print sources, where significant coverage is indicated." There are now additional sources in the article. The common sense comes in evaluating whether such sources justify the inclusion of an article or not, and here a consideration of the genre as a whole is relevant. WP:PROF, for example, recognises that an academic may be worthy of an article because of their position within their speciality, even though there may not have been extensive wider coverage, simply because the speciality is not mainstream in a pop-driven culture. I suggest that a similar consideration applies here, and that, for example, being the florist for a royal wedding and being singled out as a supplier for national institutions indicates the person has achieved a position of notability which justifies the article. I don't think you need to be too concerned that keeping it will result in widespread insurrection. Ty 12:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 10:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Phi Kappa Pi (fraternity) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Not finding significant coverage in 3rd party sources where this organization is the primary subject of the article. There are some mentions in Google News hits but they are in passing, mentioning membership in an article about some specific person. Claim of being the only national fraternity in Canada is not backed up with verifiable references, only a primary source of a pledge manual. RadioFan (talk) 17:14, 14 March 2010 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related page because it also lacks significant coverage in 3rd party sources. It's clear that this sorority has been around a long time even back in the 40's the news coverage appears to be limited to event announcements, not clear how either article could meet WP:ORG:

Phi Kappa Pi (sorority) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. —RadioFan (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep fraternity, delete sorority. The sorority is the easier case: it claims to currently be a local sorority, and that's below the scope of notability at WP:ORG. The fraternity is a little more complex. There is an assertion of notability with being Canada's only national fraternity. I'm willing to revisit this decision if, after a few months, nothing is turned up to support the claim, but for now, I'm going to err on the side of caution and keep the fraternity's article for improvement. —C.Fred (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Comment However, the claim of being the only national fraternity is referenced only with primary sources. Its the only claim to notability I see there.--RadioFan (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a weaker claim of being a national organization, since it has four active chapters across three provinces—which makes it national in scope by definition, even if the claim of being the only such national fraternity is in dispute. —C.Fred (talk) 17:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

*Note: This debate has been included in the list at Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities. —C.Fred (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment even that week claim needs references which I'm having trouble finding.--RadioFan (talk) 18:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Other Fraternity articles

If you compare to other fraternity articles, you'll find that most citations are from their own pledge manual. See Sigma Chi for example, the largest fraternity in the world, as it references its own Pledge manual. By the nature of being a secret society, fraternity history is kept within the organization. Nagiek (talk) 20:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Other stuff exists. The fault isn't that the article cites its pledge manual. The concern is that the only citation in this article is the pledge manual. Hence my comment that the fraternity article needs additional sources. —C.Fred (talk) 20:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with your point. However, that is a quality issue and not a notability issue. Thus the article should stay. I agree with your earlier stance to revisit the article in a few months. Nagiek (talk) 20:29, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
As it is a primary source it is not just a quality issue. Jarkeld (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Bright Future Group for People with Disabilities (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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fails WP:ORG. nothing in gnews . LibStar (talk) 23:49, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

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  • Keep has newspaper-derived references Dew Kane (talk) 04:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep... despite the fact that some of the "newspaper derived sources" the article claims are suspect. The source described as "Saigon Times Online" goes to here, which from a reading MAY be an accurate copy of an article from the Saigon Times but is not attributed as such and nor is it hosted on the Saigon Times website. The "UNV News" link returns a 404 error. The VietnamNet Bridge article seems all right though, and there's a lot of potentially reliable Google hits. (I say potentially reliable - it's hard in this area, especially given the foreign language issues, to separate out reliable sources from the incestuous non-profit-organisation community - but the general sense I'm getting is that significant coverage in reliable independent sources is very likely to exist, if not in English then in other languages.) - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - there are useful sources therein, despite the Engrish. Bearian (talk) 01:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to List of past River City characters. Stifle (talk) 10:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Fi Kydd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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no assertion of notability; the website of the company that makes the program is not a third-party source. Ironholds (talk) 01:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 04:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Skindred (Demo) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable demo. Demos are assumed to be non-notable per WP:MUSIC. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Kate Hardcastle (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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This is a biography of a buinesswoman but I just can't see where the notability lies. The only nods towards notability in the article are a "National Best Business Support" award (not actually sure what that is) but that was to the company of which she is a director not to Hardcastle herself. There is also a claim to a be a finalist in the Business Award Young Person of the Year however as that was in a local paper I don't see that conferring notability. The charity work is worthy but again, not notable. Nancy 12:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The quality of the article is not what is being discussed here, rather we are trying to ascertain whether the subject (i.e. Kate Hardcastle) meets Knowledge (XXG)'s notability requirements for biographies. Articles can be fixed, a lack of notability cannot. Nancy 17:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was Moved To User Space The article has been moved to Quadtripplea user's space to be improved as neccessary to bring in line with WP:GNG Mike Cline (talk) 15:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Hotel Tofo Mar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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non notable Hotel. Article describes the area and not the Hotel. Disputed prod noq (talk) 19:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

  • I do understand... there is definitely some historical significance and importance with regards to the hotel and a signing of Mozambique's independence, I am trying to establish the facts and references around this and hope to have something concrete imminently. I trust I will be given a chance to detail this properly and adjust the article accordingly, is there a way to place the article in quarintine until such time as I have this information? Thanks Quadtripplea (talk) 20:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
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  • Userfy - the article as it is now shows no notability of the hotel, but as Quadtripplea appears to understand the requirement and is attempting to bring the article in line with it, it would be best to move it to his/her user space until it is ready for mainspace. LadyofShalott 00:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep has some sources. Perhaps not many in English, but with just these few in English, it shows that there are probably many more in Portugese and Swahili, the languages of the country. Dew Kane (talk) 04:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment only one of the references mentions the hotel and that looks like a promotional piece. The article itself does not appear to be about the hotel specifically. noq (talk) 09:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Sink (demo tape) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable demo album. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

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Demo 98/99 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable demo album. WP:MUSIC. While there are sources, most of them just reference the demo in passing and some do not appear credible. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:29, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

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  • Comment. Oh, shoot; I forgot about this. I was going to post commentary at first, but then I went to other things and forgot about this. Sorry about you having to prolong the discussion. Now, to the point. I do acknowledge that theere are some demo articles which can break rules of wikipedia article acceptance. This one might. It didn't result in them being signed; matter of fact, Vaakevandring split up before releasing anything else until reuiniting again and splitting up once more after an EP which is almost a re-release of the demo. The EP of 2004 and the demo of 1999 have three tracks in common, and the demo is entirely consisted of three tracks. So therefore, is this article really necessary. I thought about this and have decided to say no, it is not necessarily. You can delete if you wish to. This officially counts as a delete vote. It was fun having the article up when it lasted, though. Backtable Speak to me 03:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete per author request, above. Other editors on the page, though, so a G7 doesn't work. The title should likely redirect to Vaakevandring, in the absence of any other likely target. No objection to a mention or discussion of this demo on the band's page - and one or more of the sources here may be of value there. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Evolution Overdose (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable demo album. WP:MUSIC —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:30, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 02:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Da Underground Vol. 1 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD • AfD statistics)
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Non-notable demo album. WP:MUSIC —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

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