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The result was delete. Consensus is clearly established, the keep argumet was convincingly refuted, in addition, this is an unsourced BLP article.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Lassiter Holmes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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claims to fame are , actor, lawyer, athlete. No indication of any achievement beyond HS --fails WP:ATHLETE. Only claim to fame as to law career is disbarment, and nothing spectacular there --Fails WP:GNG has not won any awards or played any significant roles--fails WP:ACTOR. as the lead is a near dupe of the IMdB ref, I'd say this is completely promotional Gtwfan52 (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Gtwfan52 Please see following, there are about 8 reported cases in Westlaw that can not be linked but here are some that are on the web. 1. http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19951486909SW2d577_11418.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006 2. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1383446.html 3. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/tx-court-of-appeals/1384008.html 4. http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=13897537175839247237&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

WP:ACTOR The Cloth is listed so it must be a significant role Thank you for your time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.65.183 (talk) 00:02, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Comment The fact that he was a lawyer does not make him notable. If all you had to do to be in Knowledge is be a lawyer, there wouldn't be any room left for Pokemon characters! And as far as being in The Cloth goes, you really need to read WP:ACTOR. According to ImDb, it has not been released. It has not won any awards, and there is no indication that the part he plays has any significance in the film, even if the film was important, which it isn't. Gtwfan52 (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: The problem with listing The Cloth is that while the film exists and seems to barely pass notability guidelines, this isn't the type of role that would give notability of this type. By "this type" I mean that this isn't the type of film role that would give notability based upon the one role. The types of roles that do that sort of thing are the ones that are of mammoth proportions, such as Daniel Radcliffe as Harry Potter. The type of role that is so overwhelmingly notable that you get people writing news stories on the role, it gets mentioned often in books, and so on. Just because a film is notable does not mean that every role in it is so notable that it merits an article for the actor or actress playing them. Also, just working as a lawyer on cases is not enough. If the cases received extensive coverage in reliable sources (by this I mean newspapers, tv shows, and scholarly journals rather than primary sources such as court documents or links to non-reliable sources such as blogs and podcast shows) and those sources discussed Lassiter, then that would count. I'm not as familiar with high school and college football, but I know that you'd have to show that he's received coverage. Just being something doesn't give notability. I'll see what I can find, but so far this isn't enough. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 03:32, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Also if you would listen to this link beginning at 9:40 your deletion was not proper http://vasthead.com/RA/KODA/KODA_1964_10_11.mp3

Furter the NTSB report is more than sufficient http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=80888&key=0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.65.183 (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete and then redirect to The Cloth. Holmes just isn't that notable of a person. I found one local source that commented upon him being in the movie and a brief mention of him getting taken to court and disbarred for mail fraud, but none of this is enough to show notability for him. None of the sources on the article show notability either. The high school paper is considered primary and the local newspaper review of him performing in a play isn't really enough to show that the performance gives notability. Now if Holmes had received coverage in say, New York, that would count towards notability. Local reviews are pretty routine. His high school records seem to have only been notable to the school and his association with other people doesn't give any notability either. Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED by Holmes having known someone notable. Training a person for a pageant is not enough to give notability unless his actions received coverage in reliable sources- which it didn't. Nor are routine listings of him having been a lawyer enough to show notability either. Nobody is questioning whether or not he's been a lawyer, just his notability per Knowledge's guidelines. I've actually tagged this for a speedy delete as sheer promotion. Even without the promotion, Holmes is not notable enough for his own page. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 03:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The individual who is attacking this page deleted the following references without even checking them and now has posted for deletion and now imediate deletion http://vasthead.com/RA/KODA/KODA_1964_10_11.mp3 @9:41 No You dont have to listen to the entire thing go to 9:40 http://vasthead.com/Radio/news.html page about half way down it says quote A MONTH IN THE LIFE OF KODA KODA, Houston, October & November, 1964 Remastered May 20, 2008. This stop and go recording covers about a month in the history of KODA and KODA-FM, running from early October to early November, 1964. I recorded each of these items myself. You will find the crash of the KODAbird of particular interest. Carried by KODA-AM, the October 12 recordings feature Ted Carr broadcasting from the helicopter. Carr and Don Leblanc joke about buses. Carr jokes about flying. Carr jokes about Columbus Day. You hear the Dreamliner bus jingle. Later, you hear KXYZ cover the October 14 KODAbird crash and somber announcements on KODA and KODA-FM. At the time, Joe Coffer was news director, and Gene Arnold did both news and sports. In a 2008 email to this web site, Gene Arnold wrote: I was on the air that fateful morning the KODABIRD went down. One of our listeners called to tell us what had happened. We kept trying to contact Ted Carr for his next report and couldn't reach him. We didn't think too much about it at the time. We thought we would hear from him as soon as he was ready to give the next traffic update. When we found out they had gone down, Joe and I immediately drove to the location where the chopper went down. It was a horrifying scene and I almost threw up. Ted and the pilot were still strapped inside the remains of the KODABIRD, but their bodies were burned beyond recognition. That is a sight that remains with me to this day.

These references were never checked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.115.65.183 (talk) 04:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment Walter Winchell could have been standing there and written a Pulitzer Prize winning article on the crash, and it would still have no bearing on the outcome of this debate. I generally don't waste my time listening to 45 min long audio sources from unreliable websites that are on the article to prove something that has absolutely no bearing on the notability of the article. So sorry if that somehow makes you feel slighted, IP 70... Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Delete per nom Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was keep.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Double name (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Pure Original Research Solomon7968 (talk) 22:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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Note: since the nomination the article was 100% rewritten, based on WP:RS. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:43, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

GoConnect (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Unreferenced article fails to credibly assert notability of the subject per WP:GNG. Was kept at last AfD 6 years ago with the provision that it was supposed to be cleaned up, it's still largely unsourced. AussieLegend () 12:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete. Lacks reliable independent secondary sources to establish notability as required by WP:GNG. Having searched for them, I don't believe such sources exist. Reasons offered at the previous AfD, e.g., that it's a listed stock, are no longer considered sufficient to establish notability under current guidelines. Msnicki (talk) 14:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
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This is what I found searching via your link and it certainly doesn't look to me like it qualifies as the substantial coverage required by WP:GNG. What did you find? Links to the actual articles would be a lot more helpful than a link to a search box. Msnicki (talk) 06:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The following are a sample when time period 'entire archive' is selected.
unfortunately the linksare verbose but can be edited down -- Paul foord (talk) 06:21, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
These are basically just routine coverage of their press releases. Junk like this doesn't establish notability. Msnicki (talk) 07:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete: Try as I might, I can't find any 3rd party mentions of the company. As noted above there's an article that mentions it, but it's not about the article. Given the topic, I'm actually a bit surprised by this, media companies generally have more media. Maury Markowitz (talk) 10:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. LFaraone 22:09, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sruli Recht (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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I speedied this as promotional-, but am sending it here on a user request. The present version is less promotional than earlier, but has less indication of possible notability. The references strike me as either press releases or mere mentions. see below for my !vote on the revised article ( DGG ( talk ) 00:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete Non-notable. Avi (talk) 01:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete Doesn't pass WP:GNG. The only book sources I found are essentially copies of this article and other promotional type articles. The one Huffington Post article is reasonable, but by itself is insufficient to demonstrate the individual meets the criteria for inclusion. Dennis Brown - © Join WER 14:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete The subject of this article meets neither GNG nor Knowledge:Notability_(people)#Creative_professionals. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete - Does not meet WP:GNG. — Joaquin008 21:29, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Updated Page has been updated with all information cited by third party sources. Please suggest further corrections if needed. Sawwater (talk) 22:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Honestly, most of that is unreliable, the rest is minor mentions. Dennis Brown - © Join WER 22:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Every single point comes directly from a reputable source. There are 93,300 google hits on the subject, as well as published books, including the Gestalten publishing book on Icelandic fashion design, which has a Sruli Recht photograph as the cover. This designer has been noted in some of these articles as the best known designer from Iceland.
        For comparison, I suggest to look at the page of Gudmundur Jorundsson which references the subjects own webpage bio, and is written by and signed by the subject, and also uses quotes referring to other people.
        Other very well known fashion designers pages are similarly "unreliable" by your standards, even though Sruli Recht is very well known in the fashion business world. It is possible that the general wiki editor's field of interest are various and rarely fashion oriented, which makes the subjects less covered/ edited by those knowledgeable, and more scrutinized by editors such as yourself.
        Please see the following pages for reference - all very well known international fashion designers: Rick Owens, Antipodium, Yigal_AzrouëlAkira_Isogawa It would be good to have an editor who's field of interest is fashion and design weigh in come to think of it.
        Recht is mentioned in Time magazine, Fashion Business times, Huffington post, has a dedicated segment on TYT, the worlds biggest online news... the list goes on. We could find and add a heavy amount of references from printed fashion journals if necessary, but there would be more references than text in the article.
        I would appreciate help in knowing how to improve this article based on your criteria, as the article is clearly relevant to any reader researching fashion design. Knowledge is here to educate those not knowledgable on a subject, by those who are.
        The only doubt about the notability of the subject is the suggestion of deletion at the top of the page. Otherwise, if the lack of notability of Sruli Recht can't be proved then I propose immediate removal of the deletion suggestion. Sawwater (talk) 13:17, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Comment I listed Antipodium and Saberi for speedy deletion as entirely promotional, tho at least for Antipodium an article could probably be written. If the speedys are declined, I'll do some drastic stubbification or nominate them here. As for the others mentioned, Owens has a major award, though better referencing is needed; Azrouël has major refs tho there are problems with the article, and I'm considering how to handle them; Iogawa was honoured with a postage stamp tho the article is promotional & need either editing or deletion . DGG ( talk ) 16:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • weak keep The possibly significant refs are Fiancial Times and the Age. The Age might be PR influenced, but is substantial coverage. The FT is not a full article on him , but does give his importance in context. The refs for the brassknuckles-umbrella do not show significance; I don't see one for Time. DGG ( talk ) 16:55, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Time Magazine link is number 12. The brassknuckle umbrella was significant news, covered in every news paper in Iceland and on all news networks. The age article I see is dated from 2005, which shows many years active. I understand your points on the other designers (Did you take a look at the Jorundsson page?). What I was attempting to illustrate is that instead of deleting the fashion designer sections, they should be higlighted for more contributions, as this seems to be an area largely overlooked by wiki editors. How can we get more focus onto these pages? All of these designers are influential members of the global design community, and are very well known, even if standard news publications don't feature them. They are all featured frequently in printed and digital fashion journals, and even have their own books published. I mentioned before that Recht was on the cover of the the Gestalten Icelandic design book, and is considered the best internationally known Icelandic designer. Sawwater (talk) 19:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd like to be in contact with other editors who are versed in design and fashion design. I think it is important to bring them into the debate. Please can you tell me who we could have help on this?Sawwater (talk) 19:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Per the links near the top of this discussion added by CZAR, the fashion wikiproject has been notified already. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes I saw that last week, but nothing has been heard from the fashion wikiproject in 8 days. Are there regular contributors there, or a prominent editor? Saberi has been deleted, which is unfortunate due to his relevance and influence in the fashion world compared to pages like this which are promotional, and written by the subject themselves. Sawwater (talk) 19:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Knowledge is huge. There are millions of users on millions of topics. There is not a good way to keep track of who the prominent or active ones are on any particular subject, except by looking at who is editing random articles on that subject. Check the wikiproject etc. However, if you are going to ask them to comment, be careful that you do not violate WP:CANVASSING Gaijin42 (talk) 19:50, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Just a clarification: The discussion was included in its corresponding WP:DELSORT list, but that's separate from Knowledge:WikiProject Fashion. The project gets automated alerts for articles that are tagged with their banner, but this one isn't so they weren't alerted. I've left a note on their talk page — Frankie (talk) 20:24, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • Comment - Oh my! I am late to the party, I see. Looking at Sruli Recht, the article needs major work as it has a lot of formatting/sourcing issues (including bare URLS, heavy use of external links, etc.). However, looking at the actual content, I think I can see enough to lean towards a keep vote if it is majorly rewritten and reformatted. There is quite a bit of coverage on Google News, including articles specifically about Recht, in various languages. I don't immediately see anything on Google Books (some Knowledge rehashes) to suggest notability there, but the list of books in the article, if he does have coverage in these books, it does imply a level of recognition that would more than support notability. I would recommend that this article be incubated so it can be wikified, and then run past the Requested Articles workshop to make sure that it passes muster before being reinstated. Mabalu (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for joining Malibu. Is it possible for someone to temporarily reinstate Saberi's page for Malibu to look at? I'm pretty sure that article needs the same attention, and he has similar notability, if not more.Sawwater (talk) 19:15, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Make a post at deletion review, and someone will restore it and there will be a consensus on if the deletion was appropriate or not. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Can you point me to the right deletion review page please.Sawwater (talk) 13:08, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Knowledge:Deletion review Gaijin42 (talk) 13:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
I already checked out the Saberi page via Google Cache, and I can see why it was deleted. It was incredibly promotional and didn't really show any evidence for notability on a quick look through. The best thing would be to start over again, doing the page properly this time. Mabalu (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Knoppix. (non-admin closure) Michaelzeng7 (talk) 01:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

VMKnoppix (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Zero indication of notability Jac16888 22:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Redirect to Knoppix. This Linux distribution is mentioned at DistroWatch and there is a routine update announcement at , but I have been unable to find in-depth secondary reliable sources needed to establish notability per WP:GNG. Since the software is verifiable, VMKnoppix is a reasonable search term and it is already mentioned in the Knoppix article, a redirect may be the best option. --Mark viking (talk) 04:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to University of Detroit Mercy. With only one recommendation to merge and one recommendation to delete, a redirect seems like the most appropriate compromise. Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:30, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Titan Pep Band (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Cannot see why this university's pep band is notable. Everything in the article appears to be routine coverage that a university pep band would typically have. Fails WP:GNG. X96lee15 (talk) 00:17, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was Redirect all except 2012–13 Rot-Weiß Oberhausen season which wil be deleted. If any of them can be improved to be more than a list of results then they can be re-instated. Black Kite (talk) 17:36, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

2012–13 SC Paderborn 07 season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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2012–13 Rot-Weiß Oberhausen season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
2012–13 SV Darmstadt 98 season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
2012–13 FSV Frankfurt season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
2012–13 Rot-Weiß Erfurt season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
2012–13 FC Erzgebirge Aue season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
2012–13 FC Energie Cottbus season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

No hope of that these pages will ever be complete Kingjeff (talk) 04:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I can make updates at least for the 2. Bundesliga sides, will need time though MbahGondrong (talk) 06:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to make changes. It's very early and if you think you can save some of the articles for deletion, try too. Kingjeff (talk) 07:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
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  • Comment. 2012–13 Rot-Weiß Oberhausen season is about a fourth division club's season, the only one we have for a club at this level in Germany for 2012–13. Given the state of the article I would say delete for this one while the others, second and third division clubs should probably be kept and expanded. However, if no volunteers can be found to expand them I would vote for delete as well. The tiny bit that's there can always be recreated again if necessary. Calistemon (talk) 12:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Comment. 2012–13 Rot-Weiß Oberhausen season should be deleted since the Regionalliga in Germany is not in the WP:FPL list. MbahGondrong (talk) 20:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • Keep all from 1., 2. & 3. Liga - an article being in a sorry state is no reason to delete - these need improving, not deleting. League seasons of professional clubs are long-considered notable. GiantSnowman 17:55, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Comment — I tend to agree with you on this issue. But the issue is not just the state of the articles. The main issue here is how much hope is there to improve these articles? I really don't think there is any for these paticular articles. Kingjeff (talk) 18:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Kingjeff, please do not re-factor other editor's comments. GiantSnowman 18:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Comment In case of 2012–13 Rot-Weiß Oberhausen season the notability could be questioned, too. The fourth level in Germany, the Regionalliga, is not considered fully professional. Only the first three are. Calistemon (talk) 21:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Regionalliga is not fully professional. Kingjeff (talk) 23:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
But the 1., 2. & 3. Liga are. I have clarified my !vote. GiantSnowman 11:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
But who is going to improve them? Kingjeff (talk) 17:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The hundereds/thousands of editors who edit Knowledge every single day. GiantSnowman 18:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
And why hasn't it been done? 2012–13 SC Paderborn 07 season hasn't been edited between 5 September 2012 and when I put the AfD template in the article. Same with 2012–13 SV Darmstadt 98 season. All the other articles listed haven't been edited between last year and when I put the AfD template in those articles. I have doubts that these will ever get done. Kingjeff (talk) 18:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Plenty of articles don't get edited/updated/improved for long periods of time, that is no reason at all to delete. GiantSnowman 18:41, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
But we're talking about articles that require a tideous work to be done, unlike most articles on Knowledge. I'm willing to withdraw an article if someone volunteers to take on an article and actually do it. Kingjeff (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
You can't withdraw while there are active 'delete' !votes about. GiantSnowman 18:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but I think the voters of the active deletes would change if editors volunteered to look after the articles in question and actually improve the articles. Kingjeff (talk) 19:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
  • 'Redirect as per Mentoz. Agree in theory with GS, just because an article is incomplete does not mean it should be deleted, hence why we have thousands of stubs. However, in practice agree with Mentoz as per NSEASONS, as none of the articles has any significant sourced prose and are basically a list of results which seems to go against NOTDIR. Would have no issue with them being recreated (for those in the "top leagues" as per NSEASONS, though that is vague) if sufficient sourced prose could be found. Fenix down (talk) 11:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to List of The X Factor finalists (U.S. season 2)#Fifth Harmony.

A very close call (mainly due to FoolMeOnce2Times' argument) but ultimately due to other WP:JUSTAPOLICY !votes the consensus was not strong enough against the redirect camp's concern. I will state here and now that it seems very likely that this group will eventually make headlines and that this outcome 'today' should not be the basis for deletion 'tomorrow' if a credible assertion to notability is made through GNG (excluding X Factor and press releases as sources). This arguably could have also been a procedural close on 29 April 2013 as the nominator (SPA) immediately !voted keep which would have been seen as a formal withdrawal. Mkdw 20:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Fifth Harmony (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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This article was redirected after a 2nd AfD nomination. I created the article again last week as there have been multiple WP:RS that have surfaced since that redirect. However, the article I created was redirected based on the 2nd nomination. While I understand this rationale, there are references that have appeared since the 2nd closure that would warrant a new article. I also see that there is some controversy with this article being created so I took it here so that a consensus could hopefully be reached. I will leave my vote below.

  • Keep – I am the nominator, but took the article to AfD as my work was redirected based on the 2nd AfD nomination. While the other discussions stated that they are not notable outside of the X Factor, and as such do not meet the guidelines for WP:BAND. The rationale seems valid, but regardless if they are notable for their work on the X Factor (regardless of what place they ended up at), they are still notable as they received significant coverage in reliable sources. There is also rationale that they do not have a single released yet so they must not be notable. What needs to be looked at is the basic guidelines for notability WP:GNG. They are the subject of significant coverage from reliable sources independent of the subject. Having a single on the radio releasing an album DO go towards notability, but they are not in themselves proof of notability (as notability is not inherent). What it comes down to is they are a group that has received significant coverage from WP:RS for their work on the X Factor, their record deal with Epic Records, and the cover songs of other notable artists. The fact is, redirecting the article because they have not released a single is counterproductive. There are numerous articles that exist for cover bands, A cappella groups, etc. This is not a case for WP:OTHERSTUFF, but a case of trying to get everyone back to the basics and ask if they meet basic notability guidelines. --DaisyKitteyMEO (talk) 21:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)DaisyKitteyMEO (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment – I would also like to note that this article seems to get quite a bit of work from other editors. Shortly after I created the page, an editor came along and spammed the article by adding pages of content with information that is NOT supported by references. I would ask that the article not be judged by these spammers as the article written in its current form is about as long as it can get with the available references. What additional can be said about them, their shoe size? Also, I notice a lot of IP editors and potential duplicate accounts voting on the last discussions. I want to let you know that by doing so you only make it look worse and will ultimately make your case to delete the article. If you want to vote, leave a vote, but do not spam the article or leave multiple votes from multiple accounts. Simply leave your vote then leave it alone. Let it be judged fairly. --DaisyKitteyMEO (talk) 21:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • You kind of work against your own intentions here. You seem to want to keep the article but still you created the AfD. The AfD itself works mostly as a Delete !vote so I dont know if your Keep !vote will be accepted. For next time ask someone else to do the AfD for you.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:23, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
DaisyKitteyMEO (talk · contribs) has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD. czar · · 23:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
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  • Comment - So you believe they should only have an article if they meet criteria #2 under WP:BAND? What do we do with the other 11 criteria? Also, I see the comment about WP:BLP violations and agree 100%. This article appears to have hundreds of edits since it was nominated for deletion. Looks like it is now semi-protected, but who knows what is and what isn't reliable without keeping up with them all? I went through it before my !vote, but the article looks completely different at this point and don't have the energy to re-read the article and go through all of the sources again. Would recommend possibly fully protecting the article until a consensus is reached. Not sure if anywhere on this page has the ability to do so or if it is even worth it at this point. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 15:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - I don't think the "trash" that is included in the article is reason to redirect although that thought had crossed my mind as a way of temporarily putting a halt to the vandalism. In addition to what has been mentioned, I also don't think gossip blogs or fan pages should be considered as reliable sources either. I'm relieved to see that most of the more offensive and libelous content has been removed and the article semi-protected with a note added, but disappointed to see that "trash" still remains. I HAVE taken the time to re-read the article and check the sources. Almost everything in the members section is either false, misleading, a rumor, or "filler" and should be edited by someone able, and then the article fully protected if possible. Normani didn't meet age eligibility requirements to compete for Miss Texas so at best that entry is misleading and "Other reports indicate.." is a fancy way of saying "rumors are" which checking the sources will back that up. The story regarding Cabello's audition I would argue is just "filler", regardless it is both incorrect, incomplete and will never be properly sourced unless someone present at the time the event occurred makes it public. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.12.68 (talk) 20:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - True about the Miss Texas and the Cabello's audition. It is a case of notability masking if you ask me. I took another quick look at Google to see what is there for sourcing. Aside from the way the article sits at the moment, I still feel that meet WP:GNG and WP:BAND (under criteria #1) based on the numerous hits that show up on Google. Unfortunately, it looks like most of the WP:RS were removed from the article since I left my !vote and crap like blogs and other unreliable sources were added. Judging from the current state of the article, I was thinking about changing my !vote to delete due to the misleading content; however, it wouldnt be fair based on the fact that I am able to find many reliable sources on Google. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 22:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - It's clear from the current content and grammatical errors, many contributors, some well intended some not so, are children. Fifth Harmony's social media popularity grows daily, so the "problem" isn't likely to go away once they do meet #2 of WP:BAND, if that proves to be reason for redirection or deletion of this article. There are likely to be even more contributors, not less. I would rather see the article remain, but stay locked with all content filtered through a person or persons so that only meaningful content be included. I agree there is very little substance in the article as written but that does not mean it doesn't exist as has been pointed out. All the group members have interesting backgrounds prior to their appearance on the X-Factor worth mention in the member's section, X-Factor being just a footnote. Most members have had either previous recording or performance experience, not to mention their charitable works. Unfortunately, instead of adding meaningful content to this article about that, contributors have chosen to focus on who's dating who. Lastly on the matter of notability, social media and YouTube should be a big factor when placing a weight on #1 of WP:BAND. I'm new to this wiki thing so still haven't figured out how to add sources, but what is clear for anyone that checks, is these post X-Factor covers Fifth Harmony has recorded have received wide coverage from numerous well known music blogs and online magazines, not only in the US, but France, Italy, UK, South America, and on and on. The aggregate for why a group meets criteria #1 of WP:BAND should be considered when deciding if that criteria alone is enough to warrant having an article. Given YouTube views and online media coverage post X-Factor, I would suggest this group does on #1 alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.12.68 (talk) 00:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - Kind of...maybe...I guess? Unfortunately, YouTube cannot be used as a standalone reference as the site is not considered a reliable source. However, It can be used as a reference if it is distributing the reference (e.g., a video of a news cast - the newscast is the actual reference). See WP:YOUTUBE for more information on it. Also, I don't care how much they have on YouTube as they would not really meet notability based on viral videos or being YouTube personalities. Anything that you state above is great, but it seems like I am hitting my head against a wall here as there needs to be WP:RS. The careers of the members prior to Fifth Harmony should be included in the article, BUT WHERE ARE THE RELIABLE SOURCES? That is the issue with the article as written as there are guesses, predictions, and speculations, all supported by unreliable sources. It contains a bunch of crap that is poorly referenced. The article needs a rewrite to contain only the information in WP:RS. I would gladly take the time to do it, but I know based on the editing history that it would be pointless and someone will come back along and reintroduce the crap in its current form. Article should probably be taken down to a stub and then built back up based on (and I will say this again - and for the last time) RELIABLE SOURCES. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 14:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - I was referring to social media coverage of works appearing on YouTube as pertains to WP:BAND criteria #1, not the YouTube videos standalone. I've read WP:BAND and there are only guidelines related to the criterion needed for an article to exist. If, and I emphasize "IF", meeting just criteria #1 under WP:BAND is ever sufficient reason to keep an article, a weight of some sort needs to be put on each of the criterion due to the subjectivity inherent in WP:BAND guidelines, otherwise there would be no question the article should remain as criteria #1 has been met. I would be asking myself, "how much?", "which forms?", "what kind?" and "is it temporary or sustained?". If just satisfying criteria #1 is never considered reason enough to keep an article, then there's less of a question this article should be deleted until other WP:BAND criteria is met. I say "less of a question" because depending on interpretation, the group may also satisfy #12 of WP:BAND since they were recently interviewed and answered fan questions over a two hour segment on Radio Disney. That also depends on whether or not Radio Disney qualifies as a national radio broadcast and whether two hours is considered substantial. I'm pretty sure all here are in agreement that the article in its current state does not meet WP:RS but I don't see anywhere within the article where guesses, predictions, or speculations have been made? I've read through WP:RS as well as the notability guidelines and media coverage of the covers, if sourced better or more completely, seems to meet requirements? That said, with the exception of the existing tables and the "2013-present" section, including the covers that could easily be put in table format, I agree with the article needing to be stripped down and the sooner the better as there still remains questionable content in the Members section. If you have the ability to do so, please do! As for the "pointless" argument, I've already suggested keeping the article protected or semi-protected, at least until it can be fully built. After that I would hope a clone would exist so if rampant vandalism did occur the clone could be recovered. You probably know better than I if that is even possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.12.68 (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - Thanks for bringing up WP:TOOSOON. First, I do not think that Knowledge is a promotional tool for the band as it appears they are doing a pretty good job outside of Knowledge (MTV, People (magazine), OK Magazine, and on and on). Now, for WP:TOOSOON, entertainers (WP:ENTERTAINER) states that "even if failing the GNG, might still be reasonably presumed as notable if having...(2) a large fan base or a significant "cult" following." That means that even if they do not pass WP:GNG, which it is pretty clear that they do because of the WP:SIGCOV in WP:RS, that WP:TOOSOON would not apply as they have a significant fan base, referred to as "Harmonizers" here and here. So I guess I still do not see why redirecting something that meets WP:GNG and WP:BAND applies here. Again, maybe I am not looking at WP:BAND incorrectly, but they appear to meet at least 1 of the criteria (#1) if not more. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Redirect to List of The X Factor finalists (U.S. season 2)#Fifth Harmony Again, there has been no progress on an album, much less a single, and the "award" they won is from an Internet poll where ballot stuffing was encouraged. Sourcing is poor and group has hardly broken out as of yet, and the Radio Disney Music Awards had no television presence at all, seeming to be a glorified concert solely to promote the radio network rather than awarding talent on artistic merit. Nate (chatter) 07:20, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - So we are back with another redirect vote without a policy based reason. You state that there has been no progress on an album. I think that is debatable, but has nothing to do with a policy for redirecting the page. They do not have an album released, that is a fact. As such they would fail #5 of WP:BAND. In fact, even if they released an album they would still fail #5 as they need 2 or more from a major label. With that aside, failing #5 does not mean that they fail WP:BAND altogether. Can you take a look at the references (in Google, not in the article) and tell me how the band would fail #1 under WP:BAND. I have asked others above but no one has yet to respond. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - You can also see a common outcome at Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Emocapella. Although I voted to delete the article due to not having WP:SIGCOV, the article was kept as it met WP:BAND. The difference here is that there IS WP:SIGCOV of this group. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 19:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment Do I need to cite policy? I'm going by the poor sourcing of the article, which is mainly gossip sites, a bunch of cheerleader pop news sites that never deal in neutrality, and an outright press release from an email newsletter, which is not neutral in any sense of the word. Emocapella is completely different from this article as this one would at least be able to redirected until they get more notability and an album or single out. At this point, they're about as notable as any of the 21,192 garage bands that post articles here every year, but they were at least in the public eye on a national contest. In my eyes as far as WP:BAND, it doesn't qualify under 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10, and 11. We're under no deadline. They'll get a full article here someday, but for now a section on the season article works just fine. Nate (chatter) 03:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment - Thank you for the clarification and sorry if my request for additional information seemed contentious. Of course you do not need to cite policy, but it helps others (like me) understand why you vote the way you do. As we are trying to reach a consensus, not just counting votes, it is good to cite policy. If you were able to point out where I am flawed in my reasoning for my !vote, which I have been before (]), I would gladly change my !vote based on that policy reason. Anyways...thank you for confirming my understanding of WP:BAND. It seems that they would qualify under criteria #1.
It took me a minute to find it, but this is what the article looked like when I fist came into the discussion. You can see that it has changed quite a bit from that time and if you look at all of the history, you will see that it changes quite a bit on a daily basis. Kind of points out that they do have quite a bit of a following as their "harmonizers" are willing to come here and vandalize the page on a daily basis by spamming links to non-reliable sources just to update what is in their eyes (not mine) the group's fan page. You ARE CORRECT that the article looks WP:UGLY with bad sourcing; however, we do not need to redirect or delete articles based on that reasoning. At least in my opinion anyway. You will find sources that meet WP:SIGCOV in WP:RS by going to Google. In fact, the group can be found in MTV, MTV again, OK! Magazine, Seventeen Magazine, and People Magazine. These are all AFTER the X Factor and are just a few of the most notable sources. There are plenty of others from sources that are considered reliable, but I feel using the best sources is good policy as opposed to trying cover up an article with as many sources as can be found.
I realize that this is a contentious discussion based on it being nominated for deletion so many times, but do not feel we should the article just because their fans don't understand Knowledge guidelines on sourcing, formatting, etc. I like to stay with the policy and guidelines and based on them meeting WP:BAND (criteria #1), I still do not see a reason to redirect the page. I also agree that we are under no deadline, but not sure why we would delete or redirect a page that meets notability guidelines. --FoolMeOnce2Times (talk) 13:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

"Again, there has been no progress on an album, much less a single..." Not even debatable. The fact is the single is set and the album nearly finished, all public knowledge if one takes the time to do their research. Regardless what one believes the work status is, nowhere have I read in the policy/guidelines that the status of one's work matters???

"Sourcing is poor and group has hardly broken out as of yet..." An article poorly sourced is not reason enough to delete or redirect if better sources exist, nor have I read anywhere that a band must "break out"(ambiguous term) in order to be considered for article inclusion???

"Radio Disney Music Awards had no television presence at all..." If "television presence" is a requirement for being considered a reliable or recognizable source, please share with me the wiki document link so that I might better understand???

"At this point, they're about as notable as any of the 21,192 garage bands that post articles here every year..." I've done my research and much much fewer than 21,192 "garage bands" have appeared and are still appearing in International online and print magazines, or have had their recent works so highly praised by so many cheerleader pop news sites worldwide. I can count on one hand how many "garage bands" Ryan Seacrest, 17 Magazine, Billboard, MTVnews, Radio Disney and on... have written about, featured, or interviewed. And how many have been featured or had many of their works featured in meaningless polls by those cheerleader pop news sites, or how many have had pull-out posters featured in print teen magazines, and it goes on. Everyone needs to keep in mind when casting a vote that this is an underage Pop R&B band and who their audience is. For one, it is a younger social media savvy demographic that watches very little conventional television and listens to very little conventional radio. The band's online fan base has more than doubled post X-Factor and spread even broader internationally. The aggregate of all coverage and their social media standing speaks volumes to their notability. What troubles me most about this talk is anyone doing a bit of research would know the facts yet its clear from many of the 'redirect' comments that few have bothered looking into them, rather instead making gross assumptions and in some instances casting aspersions on this group or on an entire industry. How can anyone cast a vote without first knowing the facts? Something else also clear and troubling is that Knowledge or some of its members are falling way behind the rapidly changing times when interpreting the policies and guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.12.68 (talk) 01:06, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep. They were on a major TV show and are now signed to major label company. You're gonna end up having to make the page in the future anyway. House1090 (talk) 22:27, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:41, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Jacob Allan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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PROD contested by creator, who appears to be writing an autobiography. Non-notable person that doesn't assert notability, and that I cannot find any reliable sources for. Ramaksoud2000 04:51, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Comment - From a wine perspective, his wine shop is not notable and owning it doesn't confer any notability to him so frankly that part of the bio should just be removed. However, he does seem to have a significant amount of screen credits which would make him notable if more reliable sources than IMDB could be found. Agne/ 15:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete - Fails WP:GNG--Nixie9 22:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Very marginal, but the few sources confirm its notability (non-admin closure) Sir Rcsprinter, Bt (talkin' to me?) @ 09:14, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Goodyear chimney (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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WP:NOTABILITY. That the demolition was reported in the local paper does not prove notability of the chimney. This is a contested PROD. For info: I think the only in-links are from the Goodyear template. DexDor (talk) 05:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

WebDrive (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Unremarkable software, with no assertion of notability. Major contributor to article has clear COI and therefore promotional intent. Bob Re-born (talk) 05:44, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Criticism of postmodernism. Sufficient time has passed to allow interested editors to comment. Most of those who have either argued for or expressed consent for a merger. (non-admin close) Cnilep (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Art Bollocks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Although the term abounds on the internet, I agree with the tag placed on the article that the actual essay itself does not meet the GNG (not the subject of multiple etc.), and the article is just a short summary of the essay's contents and is not encyclopaedic by definition. CaptainScreebo 07:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

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  • Merge and Redirect I could find a few secondary sources discussing this article, such as and but none of the sources were both in depth discussions and considered reliable sources per WP:RS. Thus the article seems to fail general notability guidelines, per WP:GNG, at least at the present time. However, the topic is verifiable, and per WP:PRESERVE, it is reasonable to merge a summary into the more general criticism article Criticism of postmodernism. Criticism of postmodernism has its own problems with non-neutrality, but that seems the best target. I recommended redirect, because it seems a reasonable search term. --Mark viking (talk) 22:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Note From WP:RELIST "Relisting debates repeatedly in the hope of getting sufficient participation is not recommended, and while having a deletion notice on a page is not harmful, its presence over several weeks can become disheartening for its editors. Therefore, in general, debates should not be relisted more than twice. Users relisting a debate for a third (or further) time, or relisting a debate with a substantial number of commenters, should write a short explanation (in addition to the {{relist}} template) on why they did not consider the debate sufficient." This rationale for the third relisting is a necessary item please. At present there appears to be a definite, but small, consensus to merge and redirect,which woudl be an acceptable outcome. Fiddle Faddle 19:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Michaelzeng7 (talk) 01:35, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Celeste Star (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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fails PORNBIO and the GNG, with only one nom that's not scene-related. Deleted uncontroversially less than a year ago, and the only thing preventing this from being speedied as a repost is that she got her first (and only) nonscene nomination, which may be enough to survive A7 but not enough to meet PORNBIO requirements. Still no reliably sourced biographical content. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Keep per WP:PORNBIO & above. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 00:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep - FYI, I made some edits to the article in question. The actress in question has two nominations for 2013 Best Supporting Actress & one nomination for 2007 Best Tease Performance. Also, at the very least, the July 2005 Penthouse Pet of the Month is "notable mainstream media" IMHO. Just to be clear, I haven't done a more extensive search for more notable items for this actress, since it appears to me that the above info is enough to meet PORNBIO. I also think that the "notability" tag should be removed from this article. Just as an aside, I've never been very keen on the current PORNBIO exclusion of not counting "Nominations and awards in scene-related and ensemble categories" as many adult film actors (that aren't under contract) get paid for scene-related work only. Guy1890 (talk) 06:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep, good ongoing quality improvements to page during AFD itself, per WP:HEY. — Cirt (talk) 18:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep per WP:HEY. Cavarrone (talk) 19:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Stevan Harnad. Black Kite (talk) 17:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Self-promoting article and fails Knowledge:Notability. This group has a Facebook page with 125 likers (as of May 11, 2013). I think we should merge this article into Stevan Harnad (who anyway created this article). --Norden1990 (talk) 12:09, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • See now for citations for notability, as requested. I have added eight. Note also that Norden1990 has been quite active deleting passages in Knowledge that are critical of the current Hungarian government. Unlike Norden1990, I always edit non-anonymously, but I have to point out that the suggestion that I post on Hungary for self-promotion is a little absurd. I am a university professor of cognitive science. If I post about Hungary, it has nothing to do with my line of work or my career. I do it in order to draw Knowledge readers' attention to the state of democracy in Hungary today. If there is self-promotion going on, it is by the many partisans of the current Hungarian government who keep patrolling Knowledge to delete anything critical of the current government. (I am not accusing Norden1990 of being one of these Hungarian government partisans: I have no idea who Norden1990 is.) My postings should be left to stand, in the interests of providing balance. I am, by the way, on the Board of Directors of the Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Forum, but that too is not by way of self-promotion, but an attempt to help restore democracy in Hungary. Stevan Harnad 04:02, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment: Dear Mr. Harnad, could you give me an example, when I edit anonymously? What you are saying is not correct, formerly I also wrote about the Hungarian media law, constitution, debate in the EP, György Matolcsy's unorthodox economic policy, all of which are critical points of the Orbán cabinet. "draw Knowledge readers' attention to the state of democracy", "attempt to help restore democracy in Hungary", these are all political POVs (Believe me, I am free to criticize the government and I usually done that). For the delete: The Fidesz article is about the party itself, and Politics of Hungary is about Hungarian political system. Recent political events and statements do not belong there. We have article of Constitution of Hungary for the constitution and Second Cabinet of Viktor Orbán for recent events and activities of the government. --Norden1990 (talk) 10:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Dear Mr. Norden1990: (1) If your name is indeed Norden1990, then I apologize. I thought it was a pseudonym. (2) The phrases you quote from me above are not from wikipedia articles but from talk pages, where I assume one can explain one's POV. My own POV on the current Hungarian government is definitely not neutral, but I agree that the wording in the articles themselves should be from a neutral POV, so I appreciate PamD's change from "The Charter's goal is to help support democracy in Hungary against the increasingly undemocratic developments currently taking place..." to "The Charter's goal is to help support democracy in Hungary against the increasingly undemocratic developments currently seen to be taking place..." (3) I also agree now that just posting a pointer to the article in which the Fidesz/Orban/constitution/democracy developments are described is better than describing them verbatim in each article to which they are relevant. Stevan Harnad 11:47, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
99% of Knowledge users edit under pseudonym name, but I can reassure you, I am not member of the government or its paraselene. --Norden1990 (talk) 13:02, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Reply to Norden1990: That may well be, but you asked "could you give me an example, when I edit anonymously" and I replied. I am quite happy to accept your reassurance that "Norden1990" is "not member of the government or its paraselene." I also accept your (welcome) POV neutralization of the language of the Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter article. But not its deletion. For my own part, I choose to edit non-anonymously because I think people should be publicly answerable for public comments, especially comments about named individuals. (But that's just my POV...) Stevan Harnad 14:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
yep a mere 2 hits . LibStar (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

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Merge to Stevan Harnad, per nomination. It looks to me like seven of the eight provided citations are to non-notable blogs and/or non-notable online-only publications. The one notable citation seems to be a short article in The Jewish Tribune - not enough to establish notability, in my opinion. Korny O'Near (talk) 02:22, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

  1. It would not be appropriate to merge the WP entry for Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter to the WP entry for me (Stevan Harnad), since I am not one of its Founding Directors but merely its French-Language Spokesperson
  2. Besides, there is already a pointer to the WP entry for Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter in the WP entry for me.
  3. It is incorrect that 7/8 references are blogs. The Canadian Hungarian Journal -- whose Editor, Professor Christpher Adam of Carleton University, is also one of the Founding Directors of the Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter -- is a journal registered in Canada and published since 2004.
  4. Another one of the Founding Directors of Canadian-Hungarian Democratic Charter, Professor Eva Balogh of Yale University (ret.) is Editor of the Hungarian Spectrum which -- although admittedly "just" a blog -- can hardly be described as non-notable
Stevan Harnad 14:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment - I'm sticking to my opinion. I didn't say that 7 of the references were blogs, I said 7 of them were either blogs or online-only publications - of which the Canadian Hungarian Journal seems to be the latter. Either blogs or online publications can be notable, of course, but in this case I don't see the evidence. Google searches on their names (those references don't work on this talk page, by the way, but I did the searches myself) don't seem to make the case for their notability. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. per comments pointing out that GNG is not met, and per consensus Black Kite (talk) 17:46, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Daniel Reeves (mathematician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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The person is not notable enough Mohit Singh (talk) 20:35, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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Fair enough, but even for an applied mathematician in a popular area it is should still be sufficient to satisfy WP:Prof#1. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC).
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  • Comment This looks actually a lot more like a CS/econ researcher than a mathematician, as David Eppstein notes. I think the citation rate is high enough to justify WP:PROF#C1, but will defer to David Eppstein's opinion when he offers one, since CS is his field. I will go edit the article to recharacterize the subject as a computer scientist, but will refrain from moving the article until the AFD is complete, if it should be kept. Ray 19:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. He does have some high-citation papers (aven normalizing for which field they're in), and ordinarily that would be enough. But to me that's mitigated by a couple of other points: (1) they were apparently all written when he was a student (e.g. although the journal publication date of his highest-cited paper is 2007, it also has a 1999 working paper version, and he was a student until 2005), so it is hard to disentangle his contribution to their impact from his more senior co-authors; (2) there is very little sign of notability for anything he's done since then (this is the only in-depth independent source I know of for Beeminder, although it in turn cites a WSJ article that mentions the system more briefly), and (3) because of the lack of secondary sources it is difficult to write a properly sourced article about the subject, and per WP:BLP articles about living people need good sources. I'm willing to change my mind if we get better secondary sources about what he has been doing since graduating, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete per David Eppstein. Ray 14:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete. I'm not keen on using h-index alone as an indicator of notability. Certainly a failure to have a sufficiently high h-index is a clear indication of a lack of notability. But even with a decent h-index, there must be some tangible sources on the subject that indicate how the subject is notable, since we cannot write an encyclopedia article just from an h-index. Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. While the h-number test is one factor, I think his publication record has "impact", per WP:PROF#1. Bearian (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete as the h-number is just an indicator, not proof, of notability. We still need to meet the GNG. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:47, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Ilona Kudász (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Delete Not verified as having reached 110 years of age, and does not merit a Knowledge article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashegearesockpuppet (talkcontribs)

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  • Delete As with most supercentenarians fails WP:1E. Not only only known for 1 event but is not even verified for that 1 event. May become notable if she is ever verified and becomes either the oldest person in Europe or becomes one of the 100 oldest verified people. DerbyCountyinNZ 03:17, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus, default to keep. Discounting unsubstantiated claims and edits made by new editors, all that we have is a divide of opinion over the quality of a long list of external sources.

One interesting point was brought up in this AfD: some claim that this company is being investigated for fraud. If that's true, that'll actually make the company more notable. Deryck C. 11:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Advanced Global Trading (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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I see nothing that's notable about this small 140-person company. The refs are based on press releases, and are mainly about award nominations, not awards. DGG ( talk ) 23:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

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  • Comment I consider all 3 of those references listed above as promotional press releases (I say 3 not 4, because the last two are the same press release posted at two different sites.) DGG ( talk ) 00:00, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Comment What criteria are you using to label these sources as press releases? As far as I can tell, these don't look like the typical press releases that companies use to inform investors of significant happenings. Also, I'm not sure why you're saying the last two are the same. They cover the same event, but they appear to be from different sources and they don't appear to have the same content. Isn't multiple instances of coverage from independent and different sources and organizations one of the requirements of notability? Transcendence (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • When making your case or responding to others, explain how the article meets/violates policy rather than merely stating that it meets/violates the policy. Transcendence (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
We don't evaluate the legitimacy of a company - merely its notability. Lots of companies are indicted for all sorts of shenanigans, and yet are notable enough for articles - one does not impact the other. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 18:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
And you've not provided any evidence that the company is "under investigation" by any regulatory or legal authorities, and I can't find any evidence from WP:Reliable sources online that they are, just lots of wild allegations on money blogs. Captain Conundrum (talk) 14:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. I've reverted the blanking of this debate, and warned the editor (a primary contributor at the article). No real comment on the merits, except that DGG's read on the sources available is pretty accurate. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 18:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

*Delete per norms, per DGG.--JayJaykar (talk) 14:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC) JayJaykar (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Which "norms"? Captain Conundrum (talk) 15:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment Note to reviewing admins: User:JayJaykar has been blocked for sockpuppetry. Captain Conundrum (talk) 16:53, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. I was not aware of the charges against the company. Were they better sourced, they would justify an article. DGG ( talk ) 15:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete Google Search this company and see the 4th option and read to understand why this page should be closed down immediately! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamoveragt (talkcontribs)
As UltraExactzz noted above, we're not here to discuss whether they're a law-abiding company or not, we're here to discuss whether they're notable. Captain Conundrum (talk) 08:21, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
  • KeepThis page seems under attack, the page has been on wikepedia for quite a while now and had all the information and citiations for credibility. Last week someone logged in and remove all the content filling it with negative comments and linking homepage to the opinion based article. If you google advanced global trading you will find tonnes of press online and affiliations with credible companies like Lotus F1, Grako, Equinox etc. Same thing happened this morning someone logged in comments like company is shutting down etc. I think the reputation of the company is under attack by competitors. A request has also been send to wikipedia team about this activity. Is there a way to revert back to how the article was few months back.--Mahmoodyaqub (talk) 08:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Captain Conundrum, UltraExactzz if you notice even the above comment say Gameoveragt, there have been several complains from a similar yahoo address trying to damage the company reputation. Please suggest a way as it takes quite a lot of time to build up a wiki page only to realize someone got onto it an removed all the content. Is there no way you guys can go back and check all the content that was removed?--Mahmoodyaqub (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
There's been a lot of blatant WP:SPAM from you on the article, along with the vandalism and poorly-sourced allegations of wrongdoing from other editors, all of which I and other editors have been removing. Both you and Gamoveragt evidently have a WP:Conflict of interest in the article, and I wish you'd both find another article to edit. Captain Conundrum (talk) 09:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Captain ConundrumMahmoodyaqub (talk) 11:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

And please stop blanking other editors' posts to this discussion. You're going to get blocked from editing by an administrator if you keep this up. Captain Conundrum (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was Reverse merge, from The Amazing Race Philippines 1 to The Amazing Race Philippines .  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The Amazing Race Philippines (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Unnecessary page. Show has only a single season, and no further seasons have yet been announced. The contents of the page are 50% copied material from The Amazing Race/The Amazing Race (U.S. TV series), while the other half is filled with overly-specific data concerning the destinations visited on The Amazing Race Philippines 1. We don't need to know four times over all the places they've gone, which are already covered on the aforementioned season page. Page should not exist until the show has more than one season, as with but a single season, it is not a series. Shadow2 (talk) 05:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

P.S.: Amazing Race (France) is a similar offender.

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Reverse merge: Merge The Amazing Race Philippines 1 to The Amazing Race Philippines, then redirect The Amazing Race Philippines 1 to The Amazing Race Philippines. It is a TV series, as TV shows of episodic nature are by default, whether or not they 1 or more seasons. –HTD 06:09, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Keep: I see your point but there's still no harm with an article about the show and one about the episodes. Many other shows have done this. Also, I DON'T suggest deleting the article in the case a new season should appear to make it easily reversible. Just redirect the page so the information is kept if you must. --Kartoffel 13:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Keep. Agreeing with Kartoffel. I see no harm with this. Though the article has some 50% of the info copied from the Amazing Race main article, it was written there in order to put emphasis on the details of the show. The American and Philippine versions are identical, I know, but they are two different shows too. Geographical infos are highly informative too, it was added there for a reason. For easy access, for the people to see the complete tabulation of the places. I know people will always look for that, fan or not. And I think all of these info are are worth of keeping. So for all those reasons, I am disagreeing with the deletion.--AR E N Z O Y 1 6At a l k 19:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • If this is kept, much of the geographical data needs to be removed. It's incredibly superfluous. It's almost the exact same data, repeated four times unnecessarily. Shadow2 (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
If that is the case, I think the administrative and geographical regions can go. But, I think the other two tables are worth keeping. --AR E N Z O Y 1 6At a l k 06:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I changed my mind, I think all the tables are worth keeping. Geographically, the Philippines is divided into three geographical regions: Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanaom, and I think it will be okay to keep this details. The Philippines is also mostly known by political division, which is the provinces, and that is why we included that there. However, the Philippines is also divided into economic regions, which is a pseudo equal to states in some countries like the US. Since this version focuses on racing around the Philippines only, I think all this relevant table data are worth keeping. If ever this race goes global then, I think it will be okay to drop the administrative and geographical regions.--AR E N Z O Y 1 6At a l k 11:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
It's too much. Simply too much. Shadow2 (talk) 06:27, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah it's pretty much useless (it's a stats dump), redundant (probably merge those in one table), and even wrong in some parts (Puerto Princesa is no longer in Palawan since ~2010). –HTD 15:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Okay, okay. I have removed some tables now. I think, everything is okay now.--AR E N Z O Y 1 6At a l k 15:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

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Merge - With only one apparent season and no others forthcoming, plus the content duplication from the main international versions, the two articles can be pared into one. If a second season does appear, then splitting can make sense but that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon. --MASEM (t) 14:27, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - this AfD should probably be closed or relisted, since it was relisted on the 8th, but it's the 18th now. I don't have much experience closing AfDs, so I'm leaving this to an admin. Narutolovehinata5 07:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Merge as suggested above. 122.176.146.47 (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Merge - So far, there's only been one season, and while there may have been coverage, the article would just be mainly copied from the main The Amazing Race article plus long and possibly fan-crufty summaries. Until more seasons are made, I'd suggest a merge for now. Narutolovehinata5 08:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Merge per HTD as for now. The Philippine franchise has only aired one season and has no potential status on Philippine television ratings. See TAR around the world section, many of international TAR versions like Vietnam, Brazil and France, but they aired at least a single season and no plans to have another season. ApprenticeFan 08:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment: As far as I know, a second season is being heavily hinted as being planned according to the official twitter and facebook pages. (Don't take my word for it though if it doesn't materialise). If you could somehow incorporate information from the The Amazing Race Philippines into The Amazing Race Philippines 1 (ie. The general information about Roadblocks, etc., and how each of the mechanics specific to this version work) I'd be okay.--Kartoffel 05:51, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment: I am really okay for merging the season 1 article to the main article, however, it will now very difficult to determine if what information will be removed, and what information will stay. Personally, I have wrote certain informations that should only appear in the main article and not to be fused with a season article. However, if we push this through I think there will be a big problem merging the two articles. I know you guys were just giving us with your best opinions with the general practices in writing Knowledge articles. But I think, as a Wikiproject member of the WP Amazing Race and one of the main contributor of the articles as well, the articles should be kept this way. We can trim down some things or some info, but for me, the best will be to retain the two article titles and not merge or delete any of it. Am I making sense... sirs?--AR E N Z O Y 1 6At a l k 06:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment: I decided to withdraw the French version, but it is still in production and signed its second series when the French franchise was aired between 4Q 2012. However, the program had kept to take time and had a long break. The Amazing Race Australia has two completed series and it signed for the third series, production took a break for over a year due to Grant Bowler's work commitment in his TV series Defiance. ApprenticeFan 14:05, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. It should be noted that the previous AFDs were considered in this outcome but as many of the opinions are now outlined in WP:ATA along with the consensus (albeit small) today, the article will be deleted with no prejudice for a redirect to Howard_Hughes#Near-fatal_crash_of_the_XF-11. Mkdw 20:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

William L. Durkin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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It seems he is only notable for having rescued Howard Hughes. In the article, his bio is pretty much just "he was born in 1916, then died in 2006", what happened in between is not mentioned, and everything else is about the Howard Hughes crash or the Aviator film.

I suggest deleting the article and moving the photo to Howard_Hughes#Near-fatal_crash_of_the_XF-11. There's not much else to merge except maybe for the date of birth and death. Laurent (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Sir Rcsprinter, Bt (deliver) @ 09:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Jamie Dodds (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Individual who does not appear to have played either international football, nor played in a Fully Professional league, therefore fails WP:NFOOTY. Nothing in the article or in google searches to indicate GNG through any other means. Fenix down (talk) 17:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Guerilla marketing. REdirected as - per comments - the content is not an improvement on the target Black Kite (talk) 17:47, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Guerrilla marketing warfare strategies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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An un-notable concept. There has been a fair amount of literature and research on business-as-warfare, but the exact intersection of guerrilla marketing and warfare (or guerrilla warfare) feels like original research. For what it's worth, the current article reads like an unfocused essay, with very few citations, and not much content that directly relates to the subject matter. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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How does WP:FORK relate to this? Korny O'Near (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:51, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Merge discussion should be initiated at the article's talk page  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

List of RAL colors (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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no indication of WP:notability. A list of colours. Disputed prod. The RAL color standard is sufficient to cover this standard without adding additional articles. noq (talk) 16:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

strong oppose Procedural - If it is sufficient to have the content in one article (RAL color standard) then use the merge process. HSRtrack (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
You still have not addressed WP:notability - you keep picking up on secondary issues and ignoring the primary one. noq (talk) 16:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
I'll see your WP:N and raise you an WP:ATD. This is obviously part of a notable topic with an obvious parent article. Analyzing it as if it wasn't doesn't help us figure out what to do with it, if anything. Can you discuss it in terms of its informational value for our coverage of the RAL standard, and/or address WP:SPLIT or WP:LISTPURP? postdlf (talk) 18:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • delete as potential copyvio. I'm concerned that this list falls under the EU concept of a database right, for what is a commercial list and protected as such.
NB - this is without prejudice to the ongoing sockpuppet investigation of the article's author. I don't hold with deleting valuable articles just because they're the creation of a banned sockmaster, but there is a rights issue here that we still have to observe. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
American copyright law does not recognize database rights, therefore neither do we at en-wiki. Systems such as this would not be copyrightable, but instead fall under patent law protection or maybe trademark (if anything). Further, this system was first published in 1927, and was not a "commercial list" but instead the creation of the German government (for public use as a universal standard, no less). So even if otherwise copyrightable under German law, it would be in the public domain under either of those grounds. postdlf (talk) 16:37, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the US doesn't recognise this, but as the country of origin does, don't we have to be precautionary anyway. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
No it doesn't, and no we don't. postdlf (talk) 13:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:25, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Feats achieved by I.G.P. Baral (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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PROD (concern: Article is nothing but unneeded and unsourced legends) removed by author. The article now has references, but I still don't think we need it. Ignatzmicetalk 15:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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Note to closing admin: please also move I.G.P. Khadgajeet Baral to Khadgajeet Baral, since IGP (Inspector-General of Police) is a title, and fails our naming policy. 122.176.146.47 (talk)
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The result was redirect to List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Janet_Jackson#MTV_Video_Music_Awards. JohnCD (talk) 17:48, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

MTV Video Music Award nominations for Janet Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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In lieu of the existence of List of awards and nominations received by Janet Jackson, I think we can delete this unsourced mess as there's nothing more to merge also in the above listed article. —Indian:BIO · 15:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Janet_Jackson#American_Music_Awards_(USA). (non-admin closure) Sir Rcsprinter, Bt (talk to me) @ 09:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

American Music Award nominations for Janet Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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In lieu of the existence of List of awards and nominations received by Janet Jackson, I think we can delete this unsourced mess as there's nothing more to merge also in the above listed article. —Indian:BIO · 15:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Janet_Jackson#Grammy_Awards_(USA). JohnCD (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Grammy nominations for Janet Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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In lieu of the existence of List of awards and nominations received by Janet Jackson, I think we can delete this unsourced mess as there's nothing more to merge also in the above listed article. —Indian:BIO · 15:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • It does appear to be duplicative, so delete on that basis, but (as an aside) I think it's inapt to ever consider any claim of having been nominated or winning such a widely reported, notable award "unsourced"; the name of the award-giving institution, the name of the specific award, and the year of the nomination or win are all sourcing information that in and of themselves allow for easy verification. Having a URL or page in a book to point to that repeats this information is helpful (though potentially absurd if you cite such a universally known fact as "according to The Podunk Times" or the equivalent) but obviously anyone can confirm without specifying such a secondary source whether or not person X was nominated for Award Y in Year Z. postdlf (talk) 20:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Why is this (and the other Janet Jackson award list AfDs) even here? If there's nothing to merge, then just be WP:BOLD and redirect it to the better list. Jclemens (talk) 23:51, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_Janet_Jackson#Grammy_Awards_.28USA.29. Valid enough redirect, but no need for a separate article. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 02:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy redirect to Shahbag. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Shahbag Square (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Appears to be a non-notable short film, lacking in any references, or any evidence of meeting WP:GNG or WP:NFILM. Distributed by a non-notable company, made by a non-notable freelance film maker. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment THe page was created as a redirect to Shahbagh Square but was changed to an article about a documentary film by a promotional user. I have reported the user to admin notice board. It is useless to debate here the Afd. I will suggest you to replace the status quo of the article as a redirect. Solomon7968 (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Per WP:SNOW (non-admin closure) JayJay 16:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC), Inappropriate NAC per Knowledge:Deletion_review/Log/2013_May_24 - should have been reopened but has been superseded by AfD2 Spartaz 14:23, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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OK, may as well get this started: it just hasn't got enough coverage yet. Fails WP:GNG, specific guideline WP:WEB. Yes, it was mentioned in a reliable source, exactly once. Is The Daily Dot a reliable source? Hmm... Wikipediocracy is of course a WP:PRIMARY source about itself. And so on. Slashdot it ain't.
In my opinion, this AfD was inevitable, and probably best if an uncontroversial wikignome (and one who is happy to admit when they are wrong) kicks off.
Keep it nice and stick to the relevant criteria for deletion, people. Shirt58 (talk) 10:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Delete. Now, this is going to turn into an absolute shit-storm of censorship and whatever allegations, but Wikipediocracy does not appear to meet WP:GNG, WP:WEB or WP:ORG. Sure, it's notable to Wikipedians, and perhaps should be moved somewhere outside mainspace, but it still fails the guidelines. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:43, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think that shows enough to demonstrate that, pace Jimbo, Kevin Morris is a proper journalist who has trained other proper journalists and that therefore his work for the Daily Dot counts as journalistic writing that counts as a reliable source. The issue is that Wikipediocracy is peripheral to most of the articles except for the Salon one where it is identified as crucial in the exposure of Young. My WP:Crystal Ball says that it will soon pass the notability criteria with flying colours as it continues to collaborate with journalists in the exposure of problems here. Of course, there I is a chance that Wikipediocracy might end up as the subject of coverage in its own right as it continues to provide exposés on WP/WM.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:12, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think it is notable enough per several currently cited sources. These sources seem to qualify as RS. My very best wishes (talk) 12:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep obviously notable now after the Salon expose. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep. The daily dot has been profiled in high quality most reliable sources, and its repeated coverage of Wikipediocracy establishes notability. It has been mentioned in other high quality, most reliable sources. The Salon article establishes notability, also Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep- The Salon article is a major source. If there were two articles like that we wouldn't be having this deletion discussion. On the other hand, the plethora of mentions and quotes from the site's moderators, especially Andreas Kolbe, in (yes it is one of the) reliable sources such as the Daily Dot are enough to tip me over on to the Keep side here. The notability guideline we're working with asks us to consider whether "The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself." Now, as with so many things, in order to understand the thesis we must consider the antithesis. The guideline defines the opposite of non-trivial coverage: " trivial coverage, such as: a brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of Internet addresses and site, newspaper articles that simply report the times at which such content is updated or made available, and content descriptions in directories or online stores." That kind of coverage is not what we have here. The Daily Dot articles do more than give "brief summar," the rest of the clauses in the definition of "trivial coverage" aren't applicable, and so, with the Daily Dot articles and, most importantly, the salon.com article, I think the subject meets WP:WEB. The question with this article is not so much "if" as "when," and it might as well be now.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep now that it is being noticed by the mainstream, and is a significant player in "wiki-wars" that have escaped the cozy confines of Knowledge itself and are being noticed in the outside world. If Knowledge Review can have an article, certainly this site, which has taken over that site's role as the most prominent "BADSITE", deserves one. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep but delete the SPS claims made in the article. It barely hits notability guidelines, though. The claims about members etc. may certainly be seen as "unduly self-serving" per Knowledge RS standards, and WP:BLP must be strictly adhered to with regard to the Q essay/blogpost/article. Collect (talk) 15:51, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Note: The self-serving claims were re-added, as well as the needless mention of a living person where the article is about WO and not about that person. Collect (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
      • What needless mention? Wikipediocracy exposed that living person's abuse of Knowledge and attracted attention from the outside world as a result. It should be in the article, and your attempt to remove it is simply inexplicable. --81.164.219.235 (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notability in the outside world seems pretty much established now. The tone of the article may still need attention. --Arxiloxos (talk) 16:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. It meets the GNG. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - there's no doubt of the Keep verdict. The Salon article is a disgracefully sloppy piece of journalism, attacking Knowledge for the conduct of one editor, when the author should have known how resilient the encyclopedia is against such things. About the article, it's not great, needs work, but we're certainly going to get it, if not now then very soon, so we might as well get on with it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Please remove your "WIKIPEDIA FTW" shades. The article attacks Knowledge because the system failed to kick in and eject an individual who was subverting the site to his own unethical ends until outside pressure was applied. The only 'disgracefully sloppy' thing here is your logic. --81.164.219.235 (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Lukeno94's comment is rather impolite. I thought IPs were encouraged to edit? Anyway there is no need for me to vote, since it appears this item will be kept, but please be nice to other Wikipedians. Optimom (talk) 18:03, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • They are. However, what do you expect anyone to think, when you see an IP that is clearly anti-Knowledge (note that anti-Knowledge and pro-Wikipediocracy are not the same thing) spews bile in their way? Also, if they're anti-Knowledge, they're not a Wikipedian. But whatever. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Out comes the strawman. It takes an extraordinary leap in reasoning to decide my comments are somehow 'anti-Knowledge'. 'Knowledge is far from perfect' is not the same as 'WIKIPEDIA SUCKS!11!!!" --81.164.219.235 (talk) 14:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - To my way of thinking, there are two logical plays here. Either a Keep-and-Expand — and we know with mathematical certainty that this will expand if kept — or a Redirect to Knowledge Review, which will subsequently grow a third arm from the middle of its forehead as Wikipediocracy-related material migrates there. Ultimately sourcing for the latter would become sufficient to withstand any notability challenge, and the topic page would split off again. Probably the former is a more rational way to build an encyclopedia. I am, of course, an active poster on the Wikipediocracy message board and will leave this opinion in the form of a comment rather than a definitive bolded Keep, but I hope the closing administrator will understand my point. Carrite (talk) 17:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • Keep. for two reasons. Firstly because it appears to meet notability guidelines (and erring on the side of assuming it does is probably better PR than assuming it doesn't), and secondly because it will annoy the hell out of the conspiracy-mongers amongst Wikipediocracy contributors who are so obsessed with their own perceived self-importance that they have to blame the fact that their endless whining usually goes unnoticed on 'censorship', rather than boredom. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. This shouldn't be a coatrack for the views of certain Wikipediocracy members, obviously, but Wikipediocracy's involvement in recent Knowledge controversies, and the consequent coverage in Salon, etc. make this website notable. The fact that some content in the present article violates policy is not a reason to delete, but a reason to edit the article. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 18:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep - clearly meets WP:GNG at this stage - Alison 19:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC) (I'm one of the founders and am a moderator there)
  • Keep - I found the article informative. Wikfr (talk) 21:16, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Obviously notable enough for inclusion. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep I would say that it's just on the very edge of notability. Most of the sources slightly mention Wikipediocracy, but don't go into any real depth, so we're left with dealing with snippets. However, the article could certainly use some work. Secondary sources need to be found for two of the sections or they should be removed as not all that relevant. Silverseren 10:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment from nominator... and the weather forecast for this AfD is six more days of snow. Hope you will all forgive me from not withdrawing this nomination. It was always going happen and I thought it was best to come from someone like me. Was the nomination in bad faith? I don't think so. (Well I would say that, wouldn't I?). Please do feel free to send me nastygrams and so on. I probably deserve it. I won't mind.--Shirt58 (talk) 11:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
There's been at least one Delete opinion, so a withdrawal of the nomination wouldn't of itself end things here. This is actually a borderline notability situation under GNG, but I think the big majority of opinions above reflect the sensible way forward, even if one wants to explain the decision under the policy of WP:IAR rather than the guideline of WP:GNG. Carrite (talk) 15:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Miley Cyrus#2013: Fourth studio album. JohnCD (talk) 17:54, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

We Can't Stop (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Fails WP:NSONGS. I'm not going to deny the song will become notable after it is released as all Cyrus' previous songs, but this song was revealed today 18 May and it will be released on 11 June. Unless this song passes WP:GNG the next three weeks (and I'm not refering to all probable sources that will say '"We Can't Stop" will be Cyrus next single", or Tweets published by her about the song), is clearly a non-notable article. Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 01:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Merge discussion can take place on talk page  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Timmy T. Turner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Character has no sources. No out of universe notability. Had its previous AFD two years ago, asked to merge. JJ98 (Talk) 07:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Weak Keep. Timmy is the main character of Fairly Odd Parents, which the lead didn't make apparent enough. The article is quite fancrufty, and it is unreferenced, and needs various other cleanups, but as this is the main character of a long-running, notable children's show, I believe it justifies a standalone article. That said, it should be moved to "Timmy Turner", with the redirect going the other way. A better merge into the List of The Fairly OddParents characters would also be justified, with this becoming a redirect, but outright deletion is clearly incorrect. Finding references for a stand-alone article may well be a pain, as the main show itself seems quite hard to find references for, so the merger may be better. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Michig (talk) 08:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Auburn and the Frog Prince (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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An article about a story that was apparently never published, and which was apparently intended for but never used as a short film. I was unable to establish that this has any significant third-party coverage, whether it would be under WP:NBOOKS or WP:NFILM. And as it stands it is essentially an advertisement for the company that created it. §FreeRangeFrog 07:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Delete. There just wasn't any coverage out there to show that anything about the film or story is notable. The only things that come up are primary sources, mentions of this via Knowledge (linking to the article, in other words), and many junk hits. This is just borderline promotional enough to where it might be speedyable. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 08:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • Delete. It all sounds very lovely, but it never really existed. All the "references" are non-RS. If this is kept, can I start articles on all the novels I intended to write, but never got around to? Tigerboy1966  13:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete: After going through an extensive clean up, this possibly could have made for an interesting article about an unproduced film, but it just doesn't seem to be notable enough. Like everyone else, I've been unable to find any coverage by independent sources. --Jpcase (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unproduced film that sounds like it is no longer even planned to be a feature film, and thus normally would be ineligible for an article under WP:NFF. No independent sources have been provided that would indicate any notability under general notability guidelines. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Michig (talk) 08:02, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

World Soccer Player Rankings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Essentially a blog; no indication that the subject meets WP:WEB in any way. §FreeRangeFrog 07:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete - some stats made up by some unidentified youngster on his blog. For the record, the in-depth explanation of the methodology behind them appears to be "For awhile now I have tried to think of a unbiased way of ranking the top footballers based purely on form, of course you may disagree but here it is......". No notability at all -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:17, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Per SNOW--a snow which blankets the sock contributions in this AfD discussion. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Raj Luhar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Vanity page created by blocked sockpuppet of professional spammer, with substantial edits a day later by the subject of the article. Fails WP:BIO and WP:POLITICIAN. Referenced by a local city free-sheet, a brief mention as an email recipient in a House hearing minutes, and an even briefer mention in a WP:RS newspaper article. No significant coverage online from WP:Reliable sources. Captain Conundrum (talk) 06:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Per SNOW. Only one non-fishy keep, and that one from a relatively inexperienced editor who presents no policy/guideline based reason for keeping. Drmies (talk) 15:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Kanika Batra (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Not yet notable per WP:ENTERTAINER, and no significant coverage online from WP:Reliable sources. Article mostly covers her appearances in amateur productions. Can't find refs to support claims of professional work, nor any indication of the notability of the work. Has a minor role in a new unreleased film which has itself had some press in WP:RS, but with notability unclear and with no significant coverage found for her work in the film. Proposed deletion contested by anonymous edited without comment. Captain Conundrum (talk) 06:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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How is the actress notable per WP:ENTERTAINER? Captain Conundrum (talk) 11:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete. Completely full of promotional rubbish, most of the sources are either unreliable (IMDB), or local (anything with Bangalore in), or basically name drops/routine coverage/anything other than in-depth coverage (Hindu). Doesn't appear to have performed in anything particularly notable, either as an amateur or a professional actress, and to be honest, I'd dispute the notability of Station: The Film anyway (cast looks marginal at best, same with the production company, simply going on the links being red ones, and even the director appears to be of questionable notability to me.) As such, fails WP:ENTERTAINER/WP:NACTOR, and WP:GNG. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep The article needs some more cleanup, but that is not justification for deletion. Station: The Film looks like a real film, by a real director Saad Khan, and this actress also performed at the Kala Ghoda Arts Festival, clearly a real festival. Generally articles like this improve by themselves after a couple years. This article is only two months old, and already passed AfC. To put it into AfD right after making it through AfC discourages new Knowledge users who might want to put in the effort to make a new article like this. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 17:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Of course they're real, does that mean they're particularly notable? Not necessarily. Also, passing AfC means nothing, some valid articles fail AfC, some terrible ones pass AfC. There's a reason I don't use AfC myself. Also, future improvements/increases in notability fail WP:CRYSTAL. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete - This must stay or go according to the quality of the sources, not according to editors' opinions about perceived popularity or otherwise. Here is why. Of the 7 sources:
2 are IMDB which is not considered a sufficient source in itself, though it may be used with caution.
2 are to one and the same article from The Hindu, which as a paper is reliable, but as regards Kanika Batra is just a mention in a piece about "youngsters".
1 is simply a listing in This Week Bangalore, not a substantial or sufficient mention.
1 is a passing mention in an IBN Live item (Batra is one of 8 actors listed in one sentence), not a substantial source either.
1 is just a mention in a cast list put out by the Alliance Francaise de Bangalore: again, as an organization it's fine but as a source for Batra it is insubstantial.
We therefore have no substantial coverage from any reliable source. On this evidence, we must delete. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was Withdrawn, why didn't any of this come up when I googled? Ten Pound Hammer08:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Parson's (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Deprodded with promise that sources exist, but searching "CH Parsons" + "Ashland" gave me absolutely nothing of note. Ten Pound Hammer05:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Weak keep Delete - I found one book - this one - that mentions the company and/or it's store in Ashland, Kentucky. My only reservation is what we're talking about a very old company and what was obviously a significant building in that town at that time. The judgement call is whether it rose the level of notability then and, per WP:NOTTEMP, should be kept now. My concern is that we would need a great many more sources to verify the claims made in the article. So for now, delete, but I'd be happy to consider additional sources, especially historical ones with some context. Stalwart111 06:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Amendment - I'd still like to see more about the significance of the building rather than the sort of regular stuff you might expect to see for any big building of the era, but there's probably enough there to convince me. The article itself probably needs to be better focussed on the building (given the sources) but that can be fixed by editing. Stalwart111 04:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep The book Ashland is a good start in establishing the notability of the topic. We have another article about the current use of the building — Highlands Museum and Discovery Center. A visit to the museum seems likely to be productive. Worst case is a merger to an article such as that and so there's no reason to delete. Warden (talk) 10:59, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • Keep  A Google search on has a number of hits, including:
  • "Virtual tour brings building to life". dailyindependent.com. Retrieved 2013-05-19. ...virtual tour created to, in the words of ACTC President Gregory Adkins, 'give people a visual of what this building could be like.' The video is intended to inspire and showcase 'the potential of this facility as a crown jewel of downtown Ashland,' Adkins added.
"Parson's Men's Shop" yields a one-sentence reference in Google news.  There are a number of hits in the New York Times archives that report that buyer's from CH Parsons Ashland are in town, but I can't see the dates or the notices.  A search on Google News Archive yielded:
I confirm the statement of the deprodding here, that "Refs seem to be available on GNews and GBooks".  Unscintillating (talk) 20:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was merge to List of The Fairly OddParents characters#Cosmo and Wanda. Mkdw 20:05, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Cosmo and Wanda Cosma (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Article has only few sources. No out of universe notability. JJ98 (Talk) 05:52, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Hotmobile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Unnotable company that fails WP:GNG and WP:CORP. Article created as promo by managing partner of company. Ramaksoud2000 05:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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Disagree with the request for deletion for the "Hotmobile" Article We have posted an article today, about "Hotmobile" and have seen a request for deletion. Our company and brand are notable, in Belgium and more and more internationally. So we don't understand why this request for deletion would be accepted. In fact, the three first references we mentioned under our article are secondary: - One proving that the brand Hotmobile was active as from 2004 on the internet (Archive.org resource) - One proving that the brand is registered (benelux office of brands and intelectual property) - One proving that our company is an incorporated official company in Belgium (Data bank of belgian companies). In Belgium, you must accomplish quite a bit of work to incorporate a company and register a brand. This data is now public, and notable, and we believe the article is serious.

--MathieuFranceMediafield (talk) 06:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:42, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Adsense alternatives (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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I don't think this can be speedied, so I'm nominating it here as an essay full of wp:original research. Ignatzmicetalk 04:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Some articles are sufficiently free of encyclopaedic content, or blatantly promotional enough or about subjects that are non-notable to such an extent that they can be deleted without the need for a longer, formal process like this one. In such instances, articles can be nominated (or "tagged") for speedy deletion. If there are no objections, the article may be deleted immediately by an administrator. In cases where such guidelines do not apply but someone thinks an article should be deleted, they can nominate the article via the proposed for deletion process or the articles for deletion process (as in this case). This method gives others an opportunity to make comment, ask questions and debate the merits of the article in question. Stalwart111 05:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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I think Adsense is notable and some competitors might be notable, but the suggestion here seems to be that the companies listed are notable because they compete with Adsense or that somehow being in competition to Adsense is so inherently notable that the subject list is a notable concept. I disagree with both but would be interested in what you think confers notability in this case. I wouldn't be opposed to a redirect if there is a good target (like the one suggested by Dream Focus). Stalwart111 06:52, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Oops! Just realised my colleague H2007 has elected to vanish and that I'm unlikely to get a reply. Never mind. Stalwart111 06:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Justice League#The New 52. JohnCD (talk) 17:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The Secret of the Cheetah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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This story book arc is not a notable one, and is only restricted to the Justice League book. The other arcs that have been created for New 52 books so far (see New 52 navbox), have been major arcs that span across multiple publications. There is no significance to this story, ie major character or plot events, or preparing for another event (in this case, Throne of Atlantis does that in regards to the Trinity War event). If no to the deletion, then at least a redirect to Justice League#The New 52. Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:09, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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I would think that this article would have to be merged into a Trinity War article. It's quite obvious that both "Throne of Atlantis" and "Secret of the Cheetah" are preludes / provide backstory for the upcoming formation of the Secret Society; which will apparently be part of the Trinity War and the following months. For now, however, as we know close to nothing about Trinity War or how Cheetah & others will tie into it, a redirect to Justice League#The New 52 would be okay. || Tako (talk) 01:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm more in agreement with a redirect. I thought of that as soon as I submitted the request for deletion. I agree with everything else you said too, Tako. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Enver Masud (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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This bio is of an individual that is not notable. The person is mentioned in passing within articles on other topics. After 7 years there is still no significant material on the individual despite the many books (mainly self-published) and articles he has written. No consensus was reached on the previous AfD but some "keepers" express hopes that material would be forth coming. It's time to reconsider the article for deletion. Jason from nyc (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete Odd that this has lasted so long. You young 'uns probably don't remember this, but there was a time when the Truthers were trying to take over their articles, and filling them with blue-links to "notable truthers". This seems to be a relic of that effort, and should really have been zapped by now. 122.176.146.47 (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete The apparently blue link to his organization is really just a redirect to this page. Also, the Human Rights Foundation supposedly gave him an award in 2002. The Human Rights Foundation we have an article on was not founded until 2005. The Human Rights Foundation of Turkey does not seem to be the organization recognizing him either. This probably should be deleted under the stricter guidelines on people advocating fringe theories if nothing else.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:12, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Santa Rosa City Schools. Per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. To the keep !voters, see WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and WP:MERCY. (non-admin closure) Michaelzeng7 (talk) 01:45, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Rincon Valley Middle School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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most middle schools are not notable, and this one doesnt appear to be particularly notable. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 01:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to List of Cleveland Indians broadcasters.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Al Pawlowski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Not notable. Fails WP:BIO. Local sports broadcaster; serves as occasional back up for Cleveland Indians in-game coverage. Little or no coverage from reliable third-party sources. Could not find a single secondary source online or in print to demonstrate notability. Even if some are found, there is clearly a lack of "significant" coverage. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 01:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Neutral - I'm sure if one looked deep enough, they'd find some things, but I'm on the fence about whether or not it'd be worth it. I know it sounds wishy-washy, but an arguement could be made either way. (talk) Vjmlhds 02:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
If you feel there is an argument to keep this article -- based on notability guidelines -- then by all means share it. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 05:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
As he sits right now, Pawlowski is relatively small potatoes, but I hesitate to remove the article due to the fact that he may one day become a big deal. Who knows, he may become the main Tribe announcer down the road. If the article didn't exist, for what he's done right now, it wouldn't be worth creating. But if we delete the article, then he winds up becoming bigger and better...that's the thing with articles about people, events could cause things to change, and fast. (long story short - it's easier to keep an existing article and add to it than start from scratch) Gun to my head, I'd say very tepidly keep, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over a deletion. talk) Vjmlhds 11:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
That's not an argument based on notability guidelines (WP:N). The question is whether or not the subject is sufficiently notable for an article *now*. If you can demonstrate that Pawlowski has significant coverage online, in print, or elsewhere, and that coverage is independent of Pawlowski himself, then you may have an argument (WP:SIGCOV). Otherwise it's just your own personal opinion, separate from deletion policy. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 19:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Here's what I did so can never forget his information: I dragged the biography and put into stickies, the application on my Mac computer. Ashbeckjonathan 23:28, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • I am not the one who created Al Pawlowski. I created Jeff Phelps. I don't see any issues why this article should be deleted. Ashbeckjonathan 16:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
The article does not cite a single reliable source (aside from two nonspecific external links-- Indians.com, SportsTimeOhio.com). After performing my own Google news search, I could not find a single story in which Pawlowski was the subject. All online coverage is limited to passing references to his role as a local sports broadcaster, lately as a back up for the Cleveland Indians on TV. Per WP:SIGCOV, the topic must have received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". This article fails that test. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 19:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Al Pawlowski is the studio host and a part time play-by-play for the Cleveland Indians telecasts and is the radio voice of the Cleveland State Vikings men's basketball team and hosts a couple Cleveland Indian shows as well as calling high school football and basketball for SportsTime Ohio. Ashbeckjonathan 20:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Assuming that's all true, none of it addresses the lack of coverage on the subject. Surely if Pawlowski were sufficient notable, there would be content online or in print on the subject himself. I can find nothing other than passing references to his role as a pregame/postgame announcer for the Indians. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 20:32, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Well to me, Al Pawlowski calls select games for the Indians to allow Matt Underwood, the lead voice of the Cleveland Indians telecasts, to have some time off. I don't see why this article is proposed for deletion. Ashbeckjonathan 23:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Consensus based on deletion policy determines whether or not to keep an article, not your own personal view. The subject lacks significant coverage from reliable sources independent of the subject. You may want to review WP:BASIC. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 00:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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I would have no problem with this. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 20:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
On second thought, no, I'm not okay w/ a redirect. Subject's lack of coverage (and, therefore, failure to meet general notability guidelines), indicates little or no likelihood that readers will search for subject Levdr1lostpassword / talk 01:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Support redirect. Article has received over 300 views/month so far this year. If you don't think Knowledge users/editors are interested in people not deemed notable by the GNG, then ... Welcome to Knowledge! Woodshed (talk) 10:07, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Page view statistics aren't relevant in the context of notability (or much else, really). The stat tool's creator even cautions: "I wouldn't base any important decisions on these stats." That said, 300 views a month is hardly noteworthy. The point here is that the article, along with its edit history, should be deleted. A redirect can always be created at some later date. Fully support Dirtlawyer1's position below. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 16:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
We weren't talking about notability — I think the majority agrees that he's not notable (also the subject of Dirtlawyer1's position). Redirects are cheap, and there's no reason not to redirect users to an existing, appropriate page. You haven't supported your assertion that there's "little or no likelihood that readers will search for subject". Approx. 300 readers/month are interested in the subject. Woodshed (talk) 14:12, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, yes, we are talking about notability. If we're all agreed that there is no justification for the article itself, why should we leave the page history intact? And I don't think the essay you cited (not policy) is relevant here. I'm not opposed to a redirect -- I'm opposed to a redirect over deletion. I think a suitable compromise would be creating a redirect after the page has been deleted. As for the views, I think you may be confusing spillover from the article's handful of incoming links, like Cleveland Indians (37,000+ views/mo.), with readers who are actually searching for the subject. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 14:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Can you point me to the relevant guideline on when we should delete, then re-create page as redirect vs. something like WP:BLAR? I'm unsure on this rationale. At WP:R#CRD, I'm seeing "Therefore consider the deletion only of either really harmful redirects or of very recent ones." I don't see that any of the reasons listed there under "reasons for deleting" apply here. (I'm also seeing WP:ATD-R, which is in the context of WP:NOT.)
I'm not sure you understand my position. I propose deleting this article. Period. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "compromise" as that implies I somehow favor delete-then-rediect... I don't. I was merely pointing out that creating a redirect after deletion is an option. I'm also not sure why you're linking to WP:R#CRD as this has nothing to do with deleting a redirect. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 16:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
My mistake on R#CRD. It was listed under WP:BLAR as a "see also". The rationale seemed relevant to the point. Woodshed (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
To answer the question you posed, it would be because the page history may assist a user creating this article in the future, if the subject becomes notable. To re-pose the question back to you, why shouldn't we leave the page history intact? What's the harm? Woodshed (talk) 15:20, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Anyone may become notable in the future, but that in itself is not reason enough to keep the edit history intact (I'm sure most, if not all AFD's resulting in "delete" could be redirected to some other page-- that doesn't mean they should be). A better question to ask is, how likely is the subject to become notable in the future? In the case of Pawlowski, and based on all available information on him up to this point, not-very to not-at-all. He's a local broadcaster, a back-up really, and much of his work is linked to SportsTime Ohio, a cable property the Indians recently sold to Fox Sports. The station is likely to undergo major changes moving forward, if not an outright merge with Fox Sports Ohio, meaning Pawlowski may soon be out of a job. He isn't notable now, and I only see his potential notability going down from here. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 16:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
BTW, you never did address my point on views. Just as Pawlowski is only really notable for his connection to the Indians through their former cable TV property, his page views are probably largely due to incoming traffic from the Cleveland Indians article. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 16:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Thanks for the discussion on this. I think we've both hashed it enough. If there are relevant guidelines to cite, I'm sure others will come up with them. Woodshed (talk) 16:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh, if only this back-and-forth were thoroughly "hashed". It probably would've been over and done with, that is if you hadn't posted a quote from my own userpage, but now you've decided to needlessly stir things up and potentially threaten the civility of what I thought was a civil exchange. So now I have to ask the question: why use a quote from my user page? What point are you trying to make? Are you trying to say that no one knows what will happen w/ Pawlowski in the future, and so there's not point in speculating? That might be true if we were the ones speculating, but I've linked to existing online speculation regarding the subject's primary employer, STO. Where's your "evidence", Woodshed? Yes, you've linked to various policies (and an essay), but much of that seems irrelevant, IMHO (e.g., deleting redirects). And I'm still waiting for your response on my point on page views. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 17:05, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
You can also feel free to address the substance of my earlier post ("... how likely is the subject to become notable?", etc.), since you also conveniently ignored those other points, too. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 17:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Fine by me too. And for the record, as he sits right now (which for this discussion is all that matters), he isn't notable enough for his own article. (talk) Vjmlhds 20:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Comment - I'd agree he's not notable and Spanneraol's solution seems the most useful/reasonable, but one reason supporting a keep might be that he has "won three Emmy awards", per WP:BIO - "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." Pawlowski has likely won a local Emmy, like the Lower Great Lakes Chapter of the NATAS, which Pawlowski appears to have won as part of a team.
As an aside, it seems likely to me that many sports broadcasters with WP articles probably fail a rigorous application of the notability guidelines. (Are there or should there be "automatic" notability thresholds for broadcasters — e.g., calling pro sports or Div. I major college sports?) Woodshed (talk) 00:31, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello, Woodshed. Yes, the subject appears to have won one or more Local Emmy Awards, but these awards sound more "well-known and significant" (per WP:ANYBIO) than they are, merely b/c they have "Emmy" in the name. And as you have pointed out, the 2010 award appears to be for a group effort, not for the subject himself. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 00:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • How is this article not notable? Ashbeckjonathan 23:32, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Your question has already been addressed, both here and on my talk page at User talk:Levdr1lostpassword#Al Pawlowski. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 00:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Redirect. Delete. The subject fails the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG: there is insufficient in-depth coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources to establish the subject is notable. Redirect to list of identified list of Cleveland Indians broadcasters. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Fully support the above position. Levdr1lostpassword / talk 16:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
This isn't the proper place for you to be listing all these other people. Spanneraol (talk) 13:42, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
So what? I don't care! I am just saying anyway. If you are going to stay stuff like that to me again, I will not respond to you anymore! THAT IS YOUR LAST WARNING!! Ashbeckjonathan 23:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Spartaz 07:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Simony Diamond (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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fails PORNBIO and the general notability guideline, with only one award/nom that isn't scene-related. No nontrivial GNews or GBooks hits. No reliably sourced biographical content. No meaningful improvement since the original deletion. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • From WP:PORNBIO criterion #1: "Nominations and awards in scene-related and ensemble categories are excluded from consideration." That exclusion was established in latest consensus on the notability of porn actors. • Gene93k (talk) 18:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • That single Hot d'Or nomination falls short of the "or has been nominated for such an award several times" part of PORNBIO criterion #1. Thus we get the nominator's rationale that Simony Diamond fails PORNBIO. • Gene93k (talk) 22:52, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Davina Leone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Unsigned singer that has had a small amount of exposure on mainstream media, but not enough to pass WP:MUSIC, I suspect. Black Kite (talk) 16:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Michig (talk) 07:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

NTSTATUS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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API data structures are not of themselves notable, and this article does not assert the API dta types is anyway exceptional. Was a PROD but that was challanged. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete This function is part of the Native API for Microsoft WIndows. The API as a whole is notable, but the individual functions in the API usually are not. I haven't found anything beyond routine mentions in API references and snippets in tutorials. While there are numerous reliable sources out there, none are in-depth about the topic itself. The topic thus fails WP:GNG. If there are multiple in-depths sources I've missed, I'd be happy to change my recommendation. --Mark viking (talk) 19:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. JohnCD (talk) 16:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

ExitProcess (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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API function are not of themselves notable, and this article does not assert the API function is anyway exceptional. Was a PROD but the article creators challanged. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Mkdw 20:03, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

St Austell RFC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Non-notable rugby club. Article is very sparingly sourced, and the one appearance they appear to have made in the news fails WP:NOTINHERITED (one of their players was killed in an RTD) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:26, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The Singhs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Appears to fail WP:GNG and WP:NMUSIC. Article is quite promotional in addition to this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete I could not find any sources that meet WP:MUSIC and the fact that the article was created by an account with the same username as the page leads me to believe that it's probably either self-promotion or paying someone to promote the band. One would think, if they really do have three notable albums out, that you could find reviews and such of them in somewhat notable publications. --TKK 12:39, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

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The result was delete--Ymblanter (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Jentri Anders (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Can't see any secondary source coverage on her. Jay Σεβαστός 00:16, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete I have added a couple of sources to the article. However the passing mention of her interview in a film in the Washington Post plus the brief discussion of her book in one other book do not seem sufficient for criteria such as WP:AUTHOR. AllyD (talk) 06:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Michig (talk) 07:55, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Chobham Academy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Does not even meet the basic criterion for a school, being in actual operation. The only thing of any significance is that it will occupy a building used in the 2012 Olympics. I don't think that makes for notability , or shall we do this for every repurposed building from that event ? DGG ( talk ) 01:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep: secondary schools (or schools including secondary education) are notable, and per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, "Schools that are being planned or built, except high schools reliably sourced to be opened within 12 months, are being deleted." (I added emphasis.) Ansh666 01:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  • Keep Although I have great respect for DGG, I find Ansh666's argument to be more persuasive. This school offering secondary education opens in a few months, and its unusual building has already received coverage in reliable sources. Cullen Let's discuss it 03:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete  This article is entirely written in future tense, so at its best it was intended to be a temporary article.  Outcomes is an essay that does not override WP:NOT, including WP:PROMOTION and WP:CRYSTAL.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Future tense is entirely appropriate when discussing a notable venture that has not yet begun operation. I see no indication that the article is "temporary" as it will no doubt be edited to reflect the opening of the school in September. It is now on my watch list. I see no excessively promotional language. If you do, Unscintillating, please feel free to edit for neutrality. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Knowledge editors do not know the future, so using Knowledge's voice to report the future cannot be WP:V verifiable.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • If someone doesn't understand that this article is temporary, imagine reading this same article a year from now.  The article would still be the dated opinions of Knowledge editors that would require another source to find out if the events predicted had actually come to pass.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • There are likely to be things that have actually happened that can be stated in a way that will both remain timeless and can be verified.  For example, at , I changed the sentence from saying, "The first class is expected to begin instruction in August of 2013." to "Recruiting began on 3 May 2012 for a class of 150 to begin study in August of 2013.< ref name = ...>  However, AfD is not cleanup.  At Knowledge, we don't need to predict the future, we can wait for it.  In this case this article can wait until October 2013 at which point editors will not be tempted to predict the future.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • What exactly are you citing for deletion? The article doesn't fail WP:CRYSTAL as it is verifiable (I don't see any need for the speculation tags, either), nor does it seem promotional in any way. In any case, as you said, AfD is not cleanup. There's a reason that more of WP:Deletion policy is given to Knowledge:ATD (alternatives to deletion) than reasons for deletion. Ansh666 18:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Are there any places left in the article that use Knowledge's voice to report the future?  Do these Wikipedians have a crystal ball?  Using Knowledge's voice to report the future cannot be WP:V verifiable.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:24, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I see that you haven't answered my question, "Are there any places left in the article that use Knowledge's voice to report the future?" (evidence).  Telling me to read more carefully is a comparison without an antecedent.  There is also no antecedent in which I have said this topic should not have an article, so your logic appears to be setting up straw men.  Your logic IMO mixes up the current state of planning for a future event, which is verifiable; with the future event itself, which may or may not happen.  What happened for the 2012 Summer Olympics was that rather than write timeless encyclopedic material, editors started reporting the medal totals over a year in advance.  Day after day the report was accurate and up-to-date.  Do you think people around the world respected Knowledge's accurate and up-to-date reports, or felt that they were a work in progress?  (Ans: a work in progress).  Should that article have been in mainspace, or in the incubator?  (Ans: incubator).  Unscintillating (talk) 06:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • My view on that is that that question is irrelevant. Also, so what if it's a "work in progress"? This isn't a content discussion, it's a deletion discussion. What evidence is there that this article is not notable? Also, since you mentioned it, you might want to see Blueboar's comment here. Incubator would be a very bad place for this at present, and I don't think there's a user to give it to to keep in their space. Anyways, I'm leaving for a few weeks after tomorrow, so we'll see what happens. Ansh666 07:01, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • After thinking about it more, our positions on this article are actually really similar, but we're just advocating different solutions; I don't think that the article is bad enough to move out of mainspace, but you do. In any case, I'm leaving, so unless someone else takes this up this discussion should be over. Ansh666 16:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep: it may not be open till September but is a reality for the pupils who will have been applying for places there months ago. Of course the article will need to be updated later, but the bare bones of location, sponsors, academy status, school website link, are worth keeping at this stage. I've added a link to the Admission Criteria doc on Newham council website, which gives a bit more background about the school. PamD 08:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep Blatant failure of WP:BEFORE. For example, see Architecture Today for a detailed account of the site's design and construction. The idea that schools have to be in operation to be documented here is nonsense. For example, I started Great Ealing School which has not operated for over 100 years. Warden (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Arbitrary rules are an attempt to own an entire topic area or domain of knowledge. They give undue weight to the personal opinions of the editors who create them. Warden (talk) 09:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. If there were any doubt about the academy's opening then it would not be warranted, but given that the local authority has issued its admissions criteria (referenced in the article) it is worthy of being kept. Furthermore it has received significant media attention in publications as diverse as BBC News' School Report and Architecture Today. This is a notable institution, I have added a couple of extra references and will find more that add weight to the article. To delete it would be nonsense. --Bob Re-born (talk) 12:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. The school has been confirmed to be openinf by various sources, it will be a secondary school which are normally accepted on Knowledge with their own articles AND its location in a former Olympic building further add notability. Bleaney (talk) 15:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep I eliminated the useless speculation tags left in the article, since the information has been confirmed in reliable sources. Not bothering to look through all the search results for this. Common sense, there is no reason this school wouldn't be listed, when almost all others of the type are. Whether it opened yet or not isn't relevant, no sense deleting this only to recreate it again in a few months. Dream Focus 18:47, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • keep I would withdraw the AfD and close as keep, but there was someone else who said delete. DGG ( talk ) 21:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Withdrawn  As indicated by the guideline at WP:SK, my !vote now represents the AfD nomination, but I don't claim to have done WP:BEFORE analysis to prepare the community for a deletion discussion, so I withdraw my "nomination".  Unscintillating (talk) 01:26, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Despite the shambles of an AfD, I can see no other way to close this Black Kite (talk) 17:49, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

New-adult fiction (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Reads like an advertisement for an attempted neologism coined by somebody at St. Martin's Press, and for various self-publishers attempting to piggyback on it. Orange Mike | Talk 00:39, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Comment: It is, but I am finding a few sources to show that it's somewhat notable, even though this is really did originate as a form of marketing. If I can't find enough to show that it warrants an article on its own, I'd suggest a redirect to a subsection in young-adult fiction. I know that this is sort of OR in and of itself, but a lot of people are calling this "YA with sex" and the age group is pretty much the older bracket of the YA group. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 04:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Young-adult_fiction#New_adult_fiction. There has been quite a bit of coverage for the genre, but so far it's not really that distinguished or covered enough from the YA genre to really merit a separate entry at this point in time. Will it eventually get to that point? Yes, if the coverage so far is any indication. However, we have to go by what we have in RS at this point in time and not by what might be. It might end up dropping off the radar entirely, after all. I propose merging the information in the article to the subsection I've created in YA fiction. If/when it gets more info, we can always un-redirect. As a note, I again want to say that I've dramatically reduced the article from its previous state, which was very OR-ish. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 05:02, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Redirect seems like a sensible suggestion. Both Orangemike and Tokyogirl know this industry well and both make salient points. If others in the industry start using the term and the concept itself gets further coverage then by all means. At the moment, it looks like a single publisher invented the term, remains among the few that use it but managed to get some coverage for the original announcement of their "idea". At the moment, it looks mostly like a coat-rack for promoting the books and authors that occupy the stable of that particular publisher. One person using the term constantly is not the same as many people using it occasionally. Stalwart111 06:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Keep 1) I have to question why this is suddenly being brought up for deletion. 2) New-adult is a new fiction category that covers the age gap between young adult and adult. New adults are 18 to 25 year olds. That "its become especially popular with self-published authors" shows that it's a real category. It's not a "neologism" it's a category. It's notable, and the article is expanding. Malke 2010 (talk) 14:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
    New Adult fiction is notable as a category: NYTimes, Chicago Sun-Times, Poughkeepsie Journal, The Guardian-U.K., and ABC News to name a few.
It came to my attention when I discovered a spamlink to St. Martin's Press and a wikilink to this term being inserted into an article on a book from another publisher in a spammy way. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Orangemike, can you show us the links? Malke 2010 (talk) 04:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The books have always been out there, but apparently publishers have ignored them. I read an ebook back in 2010, and then started reading these author blogs. I discovered that in their experiences publishers and agents rejected them out of hand because they had young people having sex. St. Martin's Press did not coin the phrase or use this as a marketing ploy. They knew about this genre. But agents and publishers have always rejected them. But then Amazon came along because they knew there were lots of people who couldn't get an agent/publisher and wanted to get published anyway. That apparently included authors with books about young people in college falling in love and having sex. St. Martin's Press wanted some manuscripts so they held a contest. They didn't invent anything except a name for themselves among these authors. The article needs to develop, but it's not there as a promotional or advertising article. And if we delete this article, Knowledge will be the only site that doesn't have anything about this legitimate genre. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Keep This is an entirely different category to YA. YA books are marketed to teens and up. NA books are marketed to ADULTS but the protagonists are of 18 - 26+ age and are finding their way in life,relationships,careers (In some instances the protaganists are younger/teens but the subject matter is mature (addiction, abuse etc.) and these books are NOT marketed to teens or YA readers. As a reader of NA and NOT YA I find it offensive that you would remove this category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.20.147.205 (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC) 67.20.147.205 (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
New Adult also has its own catagory on goodreads, amazon and kobo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.65.215 (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2013 (UTC) 2.29.65.215 (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Oppose. Keep No legitimate reasons given to delete, especially after new edits (disliking the presentation of something is not grounds for deletion; it is grounds for editing/fixing). Furthermore, redirecting would only make information less accessible, making it more difficult for publishers, authors, and readers to learn more about a genre that is only increasing in notoriety. There is an excessive amount of information both showing the relevance and individuality of the category from other categories/genres. This entire discussion seems to be an exercise in administrivia. Cfox101 (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Redirect/Merge to above target per Tokyogirl. I note that the article itself states that the publisher that supposedly coined it said that it is "similar to YA" and "a sort of an ‘older YA’ or ‘new adult’". Ansh666 01:21, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Extended content
  • Comment I assume those !voting oppose above actually mean keep, but having never contributed here are none the wiser. That's fine. The list of potential sources given above has a few not-so-great ones including a blog and at least one that would seem to be a syndicate/copy of another article in that list. But I think the Guardian article says it all really:

Publishers love creating new genres in order to try to sell more books and the newest addition to the genre pool is "new adult" fiction. That's the label that has been created for books in which the main characters transform from teenagers into adults and try to navigate the difficulties of post-adolescent life.

Is there really any suggestion this is anything else? Stalwart111 03:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Which ones are "not so great?" What exactly do you think your selective quote from the Guardian says? It seems to me it's saying this is a legitimate genre. Genres aren't created by spontaneous generation. They're created by writers and the marketplace. Malke 2010 (talk) 04:17, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
What I mean is that most of the "keep" crowd (the strange string of non-AfD-style "oppose" !votes) seem to want this kept and seem to want the article to describe it as a legitimate genre. Unfortunately, the sources seem to consistently disagree. At best, if this were kept, we would still likely have to describe it as the sales strategy of a handful of authors and publishers, which is exactly what can be verified by reliable sources. On the sources themselves, I couldn't work out the context of the Jezebel one but it seemed a bit like a blog, the Poughkeepsie Journal is a copy of the USA Today one and the ABC link wasn't working for me but since has, and then stopped working again. It's not a matter of there not being sources, there just didn't seem to be any particular good ones that didn't describe it as anything other than a marketing tag-line. Stalwart111 04:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The use of 'oppose' instead of keep is likely because I wrote that. I wasn't thinking of an AfD when I did that. I've been involved in a moderated discussion and 'support' and 'oppose' are on my mind. The IPs appear to be following along since a quick check of their contribs shows they've not done this before. You appear to be making more out of that than is necessary. Please remain civil. Just because they're IPs and apparently newcomers doesn't mean you can bite them and not assume good faith. Regarding the sources, I disagree with your interpretation which seems aimed at discrediting them. But more importantly, you've provided no Knowledge policy to show any good reason for deleting this article. The above sources are reliable sources that establish New-adult fiction as a genre. It doesn't matter how the genre came about. It matters that it's notable and there are reliable sources to back that up. You haven't shown otherwise. In fact, no one supporting a deletion has shown what Knowledge policy this article violates. Not one of you. And to the editor whose edit summary says he suspects socking/meat puppets, please go and get a Checkuser. I for one, live in Long Beach, CA, so go match up the IP addresses with me for starters. And while you're at it, please show the policy that says someone reading Knowledge but has never edited here and weighs-in on an AfD is necessarily a sock. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
And that's fine - they are welcome to contribute and I'm not suggesting anything other than that someone has noted (somewhere) that this has been nominated for deletion and people who have never contributed are being encouraged to come here and "vote" thinking it will "save" the article. It won't because AfD is not a vote and the arguments will be weighed by an administrator. The oppose votes won't be given less weight because they said "oppose" rather than "keep", but they might be given less weight because they express opinions not particularly based on policy. If people are going to be encouraged to come here to contribute, they should have the basics explained to them first. I'm not trying to be uncivil, it's just a waste of that energy on the part of whoever is "whipping for votes". I don't think it should be deleted, I think it should be redirected until we have a consistent set of sources that define what it is and what it is about, beyond what the Guardian (and most others) suggest. I don't even strongly oppose keeping it, but if we do, I can't see the resulting article (again, based on what we can WP:V with WP:RS) being very positive. Stalwart111 05:41, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Again, you fail to mention any policy that this article violates. The reliable sources verify that this is a genre. The article should stay. So it seems, you aren't winning and now you rely on accusing "someone" with "whipping up votes." Really? And where is your evidence for that? Who is this editor doing this? Just because you're not getting the response you seek, doesn't mean anyone is doing anything untoward here. Please read WP:AGF. Malke 2010 (talk) 05:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I think WP:NEO, WP:RS, and WP:V. Of note, what you qualify as a reliable source may not be what others do. By the way, I never said that those accounts were socks or meatpuppets; I only used the SPA tag as context for the IP/red-linked accounts. Ansh666 06:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC) (Also, you might find WP:AAGF, WP:AAAGF, and WP:AAGFAAGF funny )
  • It's not an "accusation" and I couldn't care less about "winning" (WP isn't about "winning", it's about volunteering to produce an encyclopaedia). AfDs almost never get this many "hits" from outsiders and new editors unless someone outside WP has posted something on Facebook or a forum or something like that. It happens all the time and I've experienced it many times before. It's got nothing to do with WP:AGF because I assume it's someone who genuinely (in good faith) believes the article should stay and thinks that is the best way to achieve that. It's not and that's my only point. As I said, I'm not actually strongly opposed to keeping it. Stalwart111 06:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • You have an unusual interest in having this article deleted. You offer no policy that is being violated. Instead, you make accusations of off-wiki canvassing. And yet you show no evidence and you point to no editor who is doing this. There's something very suspect about this AfD. And it isn't the newbies showing up. Malke 2010 (talk) 06:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oh, please! I came to this thread completely at random, participated in several others from the same day's log and am an AfD regular. It's on my userpage - I make no secret of it. There's at least one thread from the "New Adult Book Club" that highlights this discussion. It's closed to non-members but the google search result makes no secret of it. Like I said, not a huge problem, just a waste of energy. Stalwart111 11:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I went to that link and all I found was: No results found for "NA Wiki Page in Danger of Deletion" Malke 2010 (talk) 15:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • KEEP. There seems to be an issue here between those who know Knowledge and those who know the publishing industry and the developmental process of fiction genres. I don't know how to format these comments according to your very odd and complex Wiki style, but I do know publishing, fiction, and very specifically the New Adult genre (I'm a published fiction writer with a New Adult book releasing this year). New Adult was not created by publishers, and it is not a marketing ploy any more than any genre is a marketing ploy. Genres exist so that readers know the parameters of the books they are buying, and in the old days of brick and mortar bookstores, publishers knew how to shelve books. New Adult is not adult fiction in that it deals specifically with issues unique to the 18-25 age group. It is not YA fiction for the same reason. While some people have referred to it (very erroneously) as "sexed up YA," that is simply not accurate. The higher levels of sexual activity in New Adult books stem from the fact that sexuality and sexual relationships are a crucial factor in the lives of most 18-25 year olds. The New Adult genre has been discussed in the New York Times, USA Today, NBC News and is a searchable category for books on Amazon. St. Martin's Press was the first entity to use the term "New Adult" in a special call they held. While the special call never resulted in much, and St. Martin's has not been a major contributor to the development of the genre, it is highly appropriate that they be listed in the article and given credit for originating the term. New Adult is in fact the first digital era genre, developed from the ground up in a reader-driven push rather than a publisher-driven one. As such, it has been heavily influenced by self publishing authors. It is very important to note that while the term "New Adult" was coined by a publisher, the genre itself is actually only now reaching the mainstream presses. This is a very unique factor that separates New Adult as a grassroots, digital era genre. Numerous books categorized as New Adult have made the NYT and USAT bestseller lists, including Jennifer L. Armentrout's Wait For You which hit #1 on the NYT list just a few weeks ago. As a side note, I have recently written an article on the history and development of New Adult fiction for InD'tale magazine. The article will be published next week along with an interview with a New York Times Bestselling New Adult author. I'd be happy to provide the link to that article when it is published. I think it is important that anyone assessing the information on New Adult be someone who is very well acquainted with the publishing industry and fiction genres rather than someone who is merely familiar with Knowledge's rules and regulations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srpaulsen4 (talkcontribs) 03:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC) Srpaulsen4 (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • Paulsen, are you a published writer, or a self-publisher? I've only been involved with the publishing world since 1984 (see Publishers Weekly July 13, 1984 for a picture of me), which I suspect may be before you were born. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:53, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Orangemike, While the fact that you differentiate between "published" and "self-published" is an indication that you have very little understanding of the industry at this point, and particularly of the industry with regards to a genre like New Adult, I am published, by a "real" honest to goodness publishing house, with editors, and cover artists and everything...even owned by a great big media corp. And, not that it's any of your business, but in 1984 I was a junior in high school, so I'm also not anywhere near as young as you indicate you think I am, not that my age should have any bearing on my knowledge of this subject, nor on my worthiness to contribute to this forum. 24.9.84.195 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:14, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Extended content
And you are welcome here (AfD and WP in general). The problem is that WP is not about what we each know or believe, but about what can be verified by reliable sources. In that sense, it doesn't matter if you are an expert or not (though even that point has been much-debated, including by WP's founders). However, you'll find several WP regulars who have contributed to this discussion do have an industry background and, combined with their understanding of WP policy, have commented here on that basis. You are not required to disclose it but it might be helpful to go back to whoever is encouraging people to come here and "vote" (on Facebook or a forum or whatever) and try to organise a coherent argument on the basis of policy and guidelines. Otherwise a bunch of people are going to waste a bunch of productive writing time. Stalwart111 05:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Where is your evidence for any of this? Malke 2010 (talk) 06:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Um... the fact that it mirrors the dozens of other cases where the same thing happened? It's no big deal, nobody is getting upset or angry, it's just a matter of minimising damage and wasted time. Stalwart111 06:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
No, that's not evidence. Show us the evidence. It sounds more like you don't have a policy to point to so you divert attention with this off wiki canvassing scheme. All right, let's see it. Show us the blog, or the Facebook page. You're making yourself sound so knowledgeable about these matters. Obviously, you're experienced. Let's see your evidence. And let's check for socks while we're here. Malke 2010 (talk) 06:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I posted a link above to at least one off-wiki discussion about it, but that's not the point. I couldn't care less if people want to talk about it away from this discussion and even WP has off-WP IRC channels. I have no skin in this game and I'm not (ever) going to get emotional about it, so accusing me of some bizarre, so-far-undeclared hatred for a genre I've never heard of won't bother me much. You need to relax and actually have a read of some of the stuff I've posted before firing off an angry half-response responding to things I haven't raised (like sock-puppets, which I never suggested). Just relax mate, it's just Knowledge. But the hysterics are doing more damage to your cause than anything I could add. I'll happily demonstrate I have no real interest in this by walking away. I'm done. Stalwart111 11:13, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. I agree very much with user Malke2010. I believe the content is underdeveloped. With cleaning and additions, the page will not read as neologism because it is indeed not. As I understand Knowledge is to be used as a community forum to build credible information on an topic. New adult is an established category. As you can see from the publications that Malke2010 has provided you with. The information just needs to be added. This will take a moment, but it can be done if you allow the users to do so. This category is credible and many publishers acknowledge this as again stated in several of the articles Malke2010. If you would like I can provide more sources. The main New York publishers of New Adult or NA as it is sometimes called by the readership has been Simon and Schuster, St. Martin's Press, Hachette, and Random House. Many have digital lines for publication of the category. Cite discusses Simon and Schuster "new adult" line. Cite discusses Random House's new adult line known as "Flirt" More discussion of the new line here And I believe you've already seen that St. Martin's Press acknowledges NA so I will not list. This discusses Grand Central Publishing (Hachette imprint) expanding to New Adult.
  • Outside of New York publishers, many well known independent publishers have acknowledged the category. Entangled Publishing. Crescent Moon Press.. Swoon Romance (part of Month9Books) I could go on, but again repetitive.
  • Basically, I wanted to reinforce that the information is out there to be added to the wiki and make it cleaner. We just have to be given time to do so. Also, I do not advise merging NA to the young adult wiki. Seeing as how the new adult books in bookstores feature 18+ aged characters (legal aged) and are placed in the General Fiction section of most bookstores such as Barnes and Noble, placing the information there would be vastly inaccurate and very confusing for the average wiki user looking for credible information about the category itself.
  • Final note: Amazon has added a "new adult/college" category to their website.. So as you can see Amazon acknowledges the distinct category as well. - Activereader26 (talk) 05:06, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: There is something highly questionable about this AfD. Those opposing are doing so with an inordinate amount of energy considering the topic and they are doing it without any legitimate Knowledge policy to show why this article should be deleted. Instead, two editors here, Stalwart and Ansh666, are repeatedly accusing the editors who want to keep the article with canvassing off Knowledge and socking. Yet they haven't shown any proof of that. Nor have they shown any Knowledge policy that this article violates which would justify deleting it. Not one policy. Orangemike didn't show any policy that is being violated when he nominated the article. Something is wrong here. This appears to be a highly questionable AfD. Malke 2010 (talk) 06:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: WP:NEO fails. A Google search of 'new-adult fiction' brings back 57,000,000 hits. The article meets WP:RS and WP:V. Malke 2010 (talk) 07:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep If Amazon and various publishers acknowledge it is a genre, then it is. Dream Focus 08:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: Seeing as someone has now explained why this wiki was flagged let me counteract a say why the wiki does not fulfill those criteria and should therefore not be deleted. It is hardly a neologism as it is now a widly used term with amazon and goodreads deeming it a catgory and publishers calling books NA in press releases. Most people in the book industry have heard the term even if they dont understand the catagory. As for reliable sources the article includes a wide range of legitamate sources including many newspapers and even USA Today. This also makes all the information verifiable. A balanced view is kept including all the under-researched nonsense that was written when the catagory first started to appear (NA is not sexed up YA and therefore this wiki should certainly not be merged with YA. The books are not aimed at and are not suitable for under 18's) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.65.215 (talk) 09:28, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
  • NOTE: If you voted "oppose" it might be a good idea to go back and change it to "Keep," to prevent any confusion. You can strike out the oppose, as I have done for mine above, and put in Keep right after it. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 15:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Just in case there aren't isn't already enough evidence to satisfy whatever sorts of "requirements" exist to "prove" the term and the article are legitimately worthy of being in Knowledge, there is this: "Coming Soon : Writing the New Adult Novel: How to Write and Sell ‘New Adult’ Fiction, to be published by Writer’s Digest Books in 2014. This book for writers will be a hands-on guide featuring essential information, steps, and techniques to guide writers in creating engaging stories featuring eighteen- to twenty-six-year-old protagonists against the backdrop of the emerging adult experience." Srpaulsen4 (talk)

That's not 'evidence,' for use on Knowledge. For one thing, it reads like an advert which is not allowed, and 2) we use Knowledge policy to determine whether or not the article should be deleted. In this case, the question is whether or not this is a genre and not a WP:NEO, and if it's a genre, what WP:RS reliable sources are there that WP:V verify this. And is it WP:notable. Those are the only questions. It's not a neologism. Reliable sources show it's a genre. So it's verified. Amazon and Barnes and Noble consider it a category and B&N has dedicated shelf space for it in stores. There are 57,000,000 hits for New-adult fiction, which means it's WP:notable. The authors are featured on news shows frequently, and just this morning on CBS news. That also shows it's notable. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this...I literally had NEVER heard of the genre until today. I'm 19 years old and always wondered where I fit...am I a teen or adult? This blended over into my reading and I've always wondered where to go to find books that fit my age range because I don't relate to older adult protagonists. Anyway, this article helped clarify that. Plus, it's a good resource for writers wanting to know what markets are out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanseLacrymosa (talkcontribs) 23:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep While this concept was coined by a publisher in 2009, various sources cited show this has become known as its own distinct type of fiction, not as a branch of something else. Bill Pollard (talk) 03:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was keep.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Save Our State (Australia) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Lack of notability as per WP:ORG. Even cursory Google searches reveal few reliable independent secondary sources, most of which contain only passing mentions. The book cited on the existing page is in a similar situation. The creator of the page also likely has a conflict of interest. Takerlamar (talk) 00:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Keep. First, any COI from the creator is no reason to delete the page. Second, the party has been registered at state level and has contested several elections, which has generally been considered grounds for notability. And third, any searches should be conducted with "Save Our Suburbs" as the search term, since the group's greatest notoriety came under its former name. It's discussed quite extensively in this book, and a Google archives search turns up a fair bit. But, as I said, the main thing is that, as a party registered at state level for several elections, past practice has been that this guarantees notability. Frickeg (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. Registered political party with a long history and plenty of sources. The Drover's Wife (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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The result was delete.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Tedxkhartoum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD · Stats)
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Non-notable organization. Article creator has likely Wp: COI. Herr Kommisar 15:17, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

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  • Delete: Individual sub-TEDS are dreadfully ROUTINE, and I see no reason to think why this one is any different. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 03:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete I can't find any articles anywhere on the internet that notably talks about this company. All I see are links to the company's website when searching and I can't find any references in the article at all.—cyberpower Online 17:58, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment : It was first ever event which was cancelled by any government agency.
  1. Ref 1 : http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/12/world/africa/sudan-ted-event-canceled
  2. Ref 2 : http://english.alarabiya.net/en/business/media/2013/05/12/Sudanese-security-pulls-plug-on-Khartoum-Web-conference.html
  3. Ref 3 : http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/71215/World/Region/Sudan-shuts-TEDx-community-forum-founder.aspx
  4. Ref 4 : http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article46532

This could be added into this article or small entry into parent TED Conference Wiki page. AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 18:37, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

  • I don't see any categories in this article at all. This article should be deleted if it does not have a category or a reference. Ashbeckjonathan 23:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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  1. http://www.hungariancharter.com/directors.php
  2. http://kanadaihirlap.com/english/
  3. http://www2.carleton.ca/history/people/christopher-adam
  4. http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2011/12/yale-professor-hungary-could-be-going-fascist.html
  5. http://hungarianspectrum.wordpress.com
  6. https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=%22hungarian+spectrum%22&oq=%22hungarian+spectrum%22&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i53.1835.6685.0.7287.20.8.0.12.0.0.126.710.7j1.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.cEKSmlV6aNE#q=%22hungarian+spectrum%22&hl=en&gl=us&sa=X&ei=sjWaUYzNJLKo4APhkIDgCQ&ved=0CDAQ6wYwAA&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.dmg&fp=4fb00f9413eda176&biw=1254&bih=664
  7. http://www.redd-monitor.org/2013/05/09/advanced-global-trading-another-boiler-room-scam-or-a-ponzi-scheme-or-both/
  8. http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/print/20010205/27465-news-shorts.html#id676106-27-a
  9. http://www.atrandom.com/eoriginals/
  10. http://paidcontent.org/2012/11/29/with-new-digital-imprints-random-house-taps-self-published-authors/
  11. http://www.rtbookreviews.com/rt-daily-blog/breaking-news-grand-central-publishing-expanding-its-romance-imprints
  12. http://www.entangledpublishing.com/submission-information/embrace-submissions/
  13. http://crescentmoonpress.com/submissions.html
  14. http://www.myswoonromance.com/#!about/ciaa
  15. http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/digital-text/6487838011/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_kstore_2_6_last

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