Knowledge (XXG)

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The result was keep. Icewedge (talk) 01:20, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Shivani Kapoor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Little known Indian model of wich there are thousands, hence no notability. --Law Lord (talk) 23:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Could anybody show anything recent that can establish notability? (Also, had to remove one source, which gave a 404.) --Law Lord (talk) 14:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Answer: It seems the person has only been in the news for a few years 2002-2006, and being a relatively obscure one-hit-wonder does not make a person notable. --Law Lord (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Redirect to Paul Kurtz Cheers. I' 15:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Eupraxsophy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete per WP:NEO (it's a neologism) and WP:DICTDEF (Knowledge (XXG) is not a dictionary). The term isn't in the Oxford Online Dictionary nor Merriam Webster Online, nor in The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (1999) nor The Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (1994). The only dictionary I could find it in is a non-scholarly publication: the Dictionary of Atheism, Skipticism, & Humanism (2006). Out of the 10,000 libraries covered in Worldcat, only 187 carry the dictionary the term is in. In the review of that dictionary in Reference & User Services Quarterly (used by librarians to select books for their collections), it stated "cannot be recommended as a scholarly reference work. A better alternative would be to rely on general dictionaries and encyclopedias of philosophy and theology or to use The Encyclopedia of Unbelief." Well, it's not in the The Encyclopedia of Unbelief (1985), nor in the Encyclopedia of Philosophy (MacMillan, 2006), nor the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1998). I also couldn't find any articles on eupraxsophy as a topic in any major publication. In the New York Times for instance, the term is mentioned in articles about the guy who coined the term, Paul Kurtz. But WP:NEO states: "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term." The Transhumanist 22:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Paul Kurtz.

    Paul Kurtz did come up with it in 2004 (reference) and the article as presently written is a hopeless dicdef, so the nominator's comments are correct, particularly where he says "we must cite reliable sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term."

    But having said that, the AfD process is for determining whether this title should be a redlink on Knowledge (XXG). And it shouldn't, because a substantial source does exist (here), so it may be possible to write a full-length article about the subject.

    Of course, until someone does, eupraxsophy should redirect to Paul Kurtz, since it's a plausible search term.—S Marshall /Cont 23:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Comment: according to Dictionary of Atheism, Skipticism, & Humanism he came up with it in the late '80s. Didn't say where. The Transhumanist 23:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Question: If the book was popular enough, that would establish notability. Worldcat shows that out of the 10,000 libraries it covers, 533 libraries carry it. Is that notable enough to qualify the topic for an article in Knowledge (XXG)? The Transhumanist 23:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I think such a number (certainly for an academic publication) makes the publication pass WP:N--but I am not sure if the same counts for the topic of the publication, in addition to the COI issue. If you write that book about the term defined in Kurtz's book, and it ends up in 533 libraries, well, that's different perhaps. But maybe I'm splitting hairs. DGG, MGM, or Uncle G (it's a G thang) would be able to state chapter and verse of WP policy and give us an answer in a second. Let's stick with your direct redirect, for now. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Redirect in agreement with S Marshall. Kudos to Transhumanist and Marshall for their hard work on this AfD--and both of you have gone a long way toward defeating the AfD with y'alls search work and reference-adding; pity those references are all by the phrase coiner himself. Drmies (talk) 23:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    A redirect would be fine with me. The search term should lead the reader to where the term is covered, and it can legitimately be covered in the article on its coiner, even if the term is non-notable (see Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content). There's now a section in Paul Kurtz called "Eupraxsophy", so a redirect can be made to lead straight to it. The Transhumanist 00:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Delete (NAC). TheAE talk/sign 00:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Unaffected soundsystem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Orphaned, unsourced, no claim of notability, and google shows no independent sources ColinFine (talk) 22:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Mathestate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No references about the subject. Doesn't appear to be notable. God Emperor (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Icestorm815 • Talk 19:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

RT-JD (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article makes a lot of grandiose claims (the band filling a 15,000 seater stadium for instance), but I can't find anything to back this up. I suspect a hoax. Lankiveil 22:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Icestorm815 • Talk 04:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

St. Gregory the Great Parish (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does every church get a WP page? No. Why is this one so special? gordonrox24 (talk) 22:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Keep. (non-admin closure) mynameinc 19:04, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

List of songs by Ashley Tisdale (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
List of songs by Demi Lovato (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Wholly redundant to the information contained in the discography, single, and album articles.—Kww(talk) 22:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I nominated these two because I noticed these two. We'll see how this AFD goes, and, if it's warranted, I'll nominate the rest.—Kww(talk) 02:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.4.196 (talk) 09:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


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The result was keep. Notability is obviously established. (non-admin closure) Timmeh! 16:27, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Paul Starling (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Seems to be a non-notable person. Failed Speedy T-95 (talk) 22:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I have copied a trail of comments relating to this article for deletion nomination, below herewith: there does not seem to be any other comment forthcoming in order to help this newbie except from WereSpielChequers (thank you!)Shizuoka budoka (talk) 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Speedy deletion for this article was denied:
    • 16:45, 19 April 2009 WereSpielChequers (talk | contribs) (8,397 bytes) (Decline speedy - notability is established) as per above Admin user.
      • Exact Comment as follows: Hi, I've declined this deletion request as in my view the article does assert notability. ϢereSpielChequers 16:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Note : Notability is established.

Shizuoka budoka (talk) 10:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

KEEP ***Note : Notability is established. as per Administrator 19 April 2009 Notability as Australian Representative at Karate World Championships; Founder Martial Artist and only undefeated member of Australian team at the FIRST World Karate Championship (1970);Founder of Australian Karate Federation; First Caucasian Master Teacher graduate (in the world) of Japan Karate do College (1973). Shizuoka budoka (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

NOTE: Furthermore: See the following guidelines: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Athlete#Athletes Athletes/Shortcuts:WP:ATH /WP:ATHLETE

Additional criteria states:

A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included. Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Knowledge (XXG):Notability.

  • People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.
  • People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships.

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shizuoka budoka (talk • contribs) 18:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

KEEP *** Clear notability established Hollowinsideandout (talk) 08:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I can't make contact with this user: What does it mean when user name is red linked rather than blue?? Shizuoka budoka (talk) 10:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
That the user hasn't got a userpage (yet). But you can click the blue Talk link. Yintaɳ  14:00, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep. Failed speedy for obvious and good reasons. Clearly notable as far as I can tell. A little Googling would have gone a long way here. Yintaɳ  13:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.4.196 (talk) 09:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Geijitsu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Found no reliable sources covering this. Seemingly created by fans to describe the fighting style of Lyoto Machida. Possibly notable if his creation, but I found nothing to support that. --aktsu  21:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Icestorm815 • Talk 22:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Manicorn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I do not think that this article, claimed to be about a neologism, can be supported by reliable sources to the level where it would be something other than a dictionary definition. In terms of coverage of the term the best I can find is this which itself just seems to be taken from an Urban Dictionary page (). I have been unable to find any sources to back up the claims made in the article a Google serach of "Gone in Sixty Seconds" AND manicorn gives absolutely nothing. Guest9999 (talk) 21:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Keep "votes" do not address the fact that news coverage is not in itself sufficient to establish notability. –Juliancolton |  23:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Nathaniel Elliott (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Subject fails WP:BIO. At least two sources are not independent. The sources that are, talk about his bus project rather than Elliott himself. Delete Mgm| 21:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Like another user said, Nathaniel Elliott is certainly noteworthy enough to be considered. He received coverage in the Washington Post as a high school student. Reread that last sentence. Isn't that in and of itself enough to warrant his inclusion in Knowledge (XXG), not to mention the fact he is doing work to combat the greatest pandemic facing the world today. If the Washington Post considers him noteworthy enough to dedicate their time and resources to write an article about him, then Knowledge (XXG) shouldn't have any hesitation in adding him. Honestly, the fact this is even being debated should be embarrassing for Knowledge (XXG). When news sources as reputable as the Washington Post or even the Omaha Herald (a publication for a major city) are covering a person's actions, that person is, by definition, "newsworthy," and, by association, "noteworthy." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.242.175 (talk) 15:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete reading closely, there is not an assertion of significance. Frankly, raising $43,000 is not significant enough to be considered of encylopedic merit. What he is doing is commendable, but not sufficiently notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Sources presented are either promotional, under the control of the subject or related organizations, or not sufficiently in depth to meet notability requirements. Coverage in reliable sources is not broad enough. One might say that the quality of the writing in the article-- vague, promotional, shallow in depth could be remediable through sourcing and editing. (I've said that myself in other cases.) However, that is not the case here unless significant, in depth, verifiable information|from reliable sources is brought forth. I find no in depth bio profile from a news service. Were he notable, someone would have made one. I find no national news service coverage. Not even a limited blurb or one off. I find limited news coverage with little more information than is presented in this article. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 16:15, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Almost forgot-- getting news coverage is not sufficient to establish notability. This was not significant media coverage, it is barely even news coverage, and Wikiepdia is not the news. Also, just being mentioned on Fox New or CNN, and no links are presented to establish such, is not the same as in depth, significant media coverage. And if subject was mentioned in the context of an event, the article should be about the event. No indication of significant coverage of the event, either. Dlohcierekim 18:06, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Icestorm815 • Talk 04:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Churnalism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nonnotable neologism based upon extremely limited number of sources for something of this nature. Tags for cleanup, etc., been upf or a while without improvement. DreamGuy (talk) 20:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep The sources demonstrate the notability of the topic which is increasingly noteworthy as the traditional newspapers feel increasing economic strain and so cut back upon journalists. And at least one book has been written upon the topic. The title might be improved but I have yet to think of a good alternative which is not a clumsy phrase such as Journalism based upon press-releases and wire services. Suggestions are welcome. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment. The term is often mentioned in news media, blogs, and on the web, but all of the mentions that I have looked at amount to either discussions of Nick Davies's work or allusions to such discussions. That said, I am neutral toward deletion. This may turn out to be notable either as a concept discussed by journalists or media critics, or as an historical pointer to such discussions at one moment. Cnilep (talk) 14:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The points made in that section are not applicable here. In particular, the article is not a dictionary entry, having no special focus upon the word and I am quite willing to change the title. And the article contains numerous references to reliable sources - better than you'll find in the similar articles like Embedded journalism, Gonzo journalism or Investigative journalism. These are all phrases of recent provenance but this is irrelevant - what matters is whether there is a substantive topic, whatever one calls it. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
  • On both Neo pages it says: "This page in a nutshell: A new term does not belong in Knowledge (XXG) unless there are reliable sources specifically about the term — not just sources which mention it briefly or use it in passing." There are abundant mainstream sources on this term. And while its true many mention Davies, many do not and use the term without explaining it, implying the authors expect it to be well understood. e.g. this article from the Independent As the Colonel's explained there is no elegant alternative term or phrase to describe this growing phenomena - in my view usage of the term 'Churnalism' is likely to become even more widespread, and anyway is already too well accepted for it to class as a neo. FeydHuxtable (talk) 10:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Bernard (son of Charles the Fat). –Juliancolton |  19:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Rudolf, Count of Rhaetia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Disputed prod. Original prod (by User:WikiDan61) read: Historical figure notable for one event. Sufficient coverage provided at Bernard (son of Charles the Fat) and I agree. It's just a stub that would never have a chance to be a fullfledged article, should just redirect to the mentioned article. DreamGuy (talk) 20:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Because the editor who removed the prod notice has a long history of aggressively reverting redirects and other actions and insists that a redirect is a delete so that a delete vote needs to be made. I disagree with him, but filing the AFD to prove to him that the article doesn't belong as is seems to be the only step he'll accept, otherwise edit wars and tagteaming/sockpuppets take over. It's easier just to AFD it. DreamGuy (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
What User:DreamGuy writes about me above is false. I have reported DreamGuy at Knowledge (XXG):Wikiquette alerts for for harassment, wikihounding and uncivil behavior. Wordssuch (talk) 05:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, good luck on that considering your edit history. DreamGuy (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment Actually, I have to disagree with that statement. While WP:ONEEVENT redirects to Knowledge (XXG):Biographies of living persons, there is a subsection titled "People notable only for one event" on WP:BIO. This section contains a "see also" reference to the WP:BLP page, but it also applies the principle to ALL biographies. WikiDan61ReadMe!! 13:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 08:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Benjamin Vasserman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Disputed prod. Original prod reason (by User:Barkeep) was: Does not seem to satisfy notability guidelines per WP:CREATIVE. Article is merely a collection of information with no context and falls under WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Article asserts winning of awards, but not indication of whether the awards are notable/some easy peasy thing anyone can get. Sources do not meet WP:RS standards. Overall article is just one major advertisement. DreamGuy (talk) 20:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you know if it can it be verified that these works are "permanent collections" in any "notable" galleries, museums, or libraries? If so, proper references need to be used. As for awards which of these is notable and has been documented by a third party?
Delete per my original prod. Barkeep 13:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
The article provides links to document each of the awards claimed. Wordssuch (talk) 13:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I've looked at the links and not found anything that meets our criteria. Most of those links to award claims are to the individual's own website, which is not a third party. I'm not seeing anything reliable or notable about the others. We would need some outside source showing notability of these awards, which has already been explained to you. Please provide concrete examples instead of just claiming it here. DreamGuy (talk) 13:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Dangerbox recordings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No independent third party reliable sources giving nontrivial coverage to demonstrate notability per Knowledge (XXG) standards. DreamGuy (talk) 20:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy keep Clearly a snowball case, last two afds in the past two months both resulted in keep. Nominator is an WP:SPA who is constantly edit-warring both this afd and the article, has made no edits outside this afd, and has just been blocked. Non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 20:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Brenden Foster (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)


Blatant WP:OneEvent, WP:NOT#MEMORIAL,Knowledge (XXG):N#TEMP, Knowledge (XXG):NOT#NEWS if there ever was one baby. Thanks. This page has got to go. -Learneggs12 (talk) 00:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment - I've noticed that previous AFDs on this article were closed after two days of commenting or so. Please leave this up for at least 7 days (between the first real comments and the last real comments) If this article is truly noteworthy, it will stand the test of time. Please do not close this debate when it is just getting started --Learneggs12 (talk) 16:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I won't close this again as another SNOW, but hope that an admin will do so. This kind of repeat nomination until the nominator gets his/her own way (I suspect it is the same nominator each time, since these accounts have little other activity except in relation to this article) is surely disruptive. People should not be forced to keep repeating their comments time and time again in order to prevent someone claiming there is consensus to delete an article. --Kotniski (talk) 17:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - I don't understand why this AFD keeps getting prematurely closed. I honestly do not think that AFDs are an unneccessary intrusion into the article. Firstly, I've reworked the article quite a bit since the last AFD. Secondly I understand that this requires many to make the same arguments the've made before. But since the last two AFDs were prematurely closed after a two day opening for comments for a page that only recieves ~20 page views per day, it's clear that there has been insufficient time for debate... That this is the fourth nomination reflects not on a persistence to delete this page, but on how poorly previous AFDs were handled.--Learneggs12 (talk) 18:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment- I've been reading policy and AFDs are supposed to last "at least five days (seven, in the case of articles and redirects)" No previous "Keep" AFDs have lasted that long... Last two lasted two days, I believe... --Learneggs12 (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • See WP:SNOW and WP:IAR which are also policy. There's a tendency to think that an open AFD will use up editor's time, and if there's no chance it is going to finish with anything but a particular outcome, closing it early will save time. If you think the decision to close early is incorrect, you can list the article at WP:DRV to have that decision reviewed. JulesH (talk) 19:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep As seen from the recent case of Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Susan Boyle, the broad consensus appears to be that articles for individuals such as Brenden Foster, who have received continuing coverage over a period of time, should be retained. This has held, despite frequent efforts to try to shoehorn individuals into a one-sided interpretation of WP:BLP1E. Much time and effort could be saved if we would modify BLP1E to better reflect consensus at multiple AfDs rather than fighting this battle one article at a time here at AfD. Alansohn (talk) 19:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable subject, prperly referenced, etc. I have to wonder the purpose of this returning AfD, the article's fourth. The nominator apparently being a single-purpose account seeking the deletion of the article certainly doesn't help. Dayewalker (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep - Besides easily passing WP:BIO, the last AfD was closed less than a month ago as a unanimous "Keep". I'm assuming this nom is a sock of last nom simply by the repeated strange mistake of placing a biography in the "Places and transportation" category.--Oakshade (talk) 20:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Speedy Keep and Send to DRV mainly a procedural !vote as I believe this belongs in DRV since the nom is essentially asking for a reopening because the proper procedure was not followed, but I tend to agree with to consensus of the previous AfDs that he is notable because of significant coverage over time. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Given the number of comments since the out-of-process reopening, doesn't it make sense at this point to just let this turn into snow? There's already a 3RR report on Learneggs at the noticeboards; adding a DRV to this seems like a waste of time. Townlake (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete, G3 (obvious hoax). Author indefblocked as a vandalism-only account. Blueboy96 21:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Andy Nees (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Seems to be a hoax, zero google hits for "Andy Nees" and "Bowie Baysox", 2008 MLB Draft also does not list him. Dayewalker (talk) 19:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Wizardman 15:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Game builders academy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Written like an advertisement, only reference is a dead-link, Google only turns up first party sources - 2 ... says you, says me, suggestion box 18:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom; after googling etc, could not find any sources except the very briefest of mentions in what appears to be adverts (pay to read); searched on the ref site itself and found this list of programmes with v brief mention  Chzz  ►  20:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 08:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Kasra Hooshmand Engineering Co., P.J.S. (KDI) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An other editor's DB-CORP got removed but I also believe this Iranian company fails WP:CORP. So I'm bringing it here. The only ref in the article is a publication by the company itself and Google doesn't do much more than confirm the company exists. Can't find anything that makes it a notable corp. Yintaɳ  18:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear Yintaɳ. Thank you for your comment. But I believe, you don't have any kind of knowledge about Iranian companies or any other Iranian related subjects. So please stop doing things which you don't have any knowledge about them! Shir-e-Iran (talk) 19:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC) — Shir-e-Iran (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I'm following WP guidelines and policies. I suggest you start doing the same. You've removed the AfD notice from the article twice, you've messed with redirects, and you've even blanked this page twice. I think you're lucky you haven't been blocked. Don't have a go at me if you don't agree with the proposed deletion, just argue your case below. Thanks, Yintaɳ  19:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. There is an assertion of significance with the AIA membership. However, I don't think that's enough to keep the article around long-term, at least in the absence of independent sources. If independent sources turn up to establish general notability, I'll reconsider. —C.Fred (talk) 19:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
To be sure I just checked the AIA application form. As far as I can tell anybody can join that organisation, as long as you pay your annual fee (between $800 and $2500). I'm not sure that AIA membership establishes notability. They don't seem to have criteria themselves. Yintaɳ  20:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Again, I have to say that the people who commented about this Iranian company, don't have a slightest knowledge of Iranian economy and companies. Every technical person in Iran knows KDI, as the company is the only provider of machine vision solutions and one of the few designers of Cleanrooms in the country. Shir-e-Iran (talk) 19:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Then demonstrate it. Provide independent reliable sources that show the company gets widespread coverage. Yintan attempted to and found no sources; it was only after he did that that he nominated the article for deletion. —C.Fred (talk) 19:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. I believe that, if an admin were to check, (note IDENTICAL user pages) they would find that the user (User:Shir-e-Iran) who declined the speedy was actually the same person as the initial author of the article (User:KDICO), with the Shir-e-Iran account being created only after the KDICO account was blocked for having a promotional username. (in other words, he gamed the system, taking advantage of his new username to remove a speedy from an article he created) In addition, I find little proof of notability. As for "lack of knowledge of Iran", I will use the "Time Bandits" defense, and substitute the word "Knowledge (XXG)" for the words "digital watches". Wuhwuzdat (talk) 20:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I had considered that angle in reviewing the article. However, I felt that the AIA membership was a significant enough assertion of notability that I didn't speedy-delete it on the spot. —C.Fred (talk) 21:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly Keep I have checked this company out. It seems that, they have done a great job judging by the standards of middle eastern electronic and high-tech developing companies. They are certainly a top company in that region. And if you take a look at Companie of Iran, you will see that almost all of the companies listed in this category have less refrences and reliable sources than this company. So we should delete them all! Besides I couldn't find any other Iranian or middle eastern company which develops machine vision and digital image processing systems neither in google nor in Knowledge (XXG). So lets keep this one and don't delete it. Computer Geek number1 (talk) 21:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC) — Computer Geek number1 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Wow, a brand new account, and the VERY first edit, 12 minutes after account creation, is to vote KEEP here, with a comment that bears a very strong resemblance to a comment made by the creator of the article in question. Walks like a duck...... Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Are you going to prove that you are Sherlock Holmes or what? Grow up and stop acting like childs and only post your comment about the disputed page, not about other users! Thanks. Computer Geek number1 (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Nope, I'm not Sherlock, but, I do know when to call him in to help with an investigation. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 22:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Normally I'd say back off and assume good faith, but this one seems pretty obvious... don't forget to add WP:SARCASM where appropriate... — BQZip01 —  03:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete--I can't find any evidence of notability for this company, and rather than take Computer Geek's word for it (and Geek, Knowledge (XXG) is not a source for Knowledge (XXG)), I'm going to say delete until I see references from reliable sources (that is, not Google). Drmies (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete unless these people that pop up after 'checking the company' will tell us where they are finding their info. And if they object to any other company having an article, they can bring that article to Articles for Deletion themselves. Interesting that there isn't a Farsi article on the company - or doesn't seem to be. By the way, the more that new accounts call the more regular editors names and tell them how things should be done (without evidence), the less the notice that we pay to them. You want an article here - you follow the policies here. Simple, isn't it? Peridon (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete - due to complete lack of sources. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 01:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comments:
  • I filed the initial CSD on this article, it was deleted by Ged UK a few hours later, and then it was recreated by KDICO. If the consensus here is delete (as seems likely atm), I suggest that the closing admin consider salting it.
  • I added the {{spa}} tags above; while I doubt a closing admin won't recognize the !votes for what they are, I figure it can't hurt.
  • KDICO and Shir-e-Iran have created several redirects to the company. Again, assuming that the consensus is to delete, they need to go as well, so I've included them in the list above. Dori ❦ (Talk ❖ Contribs ❖ Review) ❦ 01:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
If the AfD ends in a delete decision, the redirects will be speedy deletable under criterion G8. Standard procedure when closing with a delete result is to check for redirects and delete them. Since they are not separate articles, I've removed them from the listing at the top of the page. —C.Fred (talk) 01:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. One (talk) 00:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of FSB involvement in the Russian apartment bombings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article has been created out of process. It is essentially a content fork of of Russian apartment bombings, and is available word-for-word in the main article. As it is forked content, it has been redirected back to Russian apartment bombings but the article creator has undone this. It also needs to be mentioned that Russian apartment bombings is NOT at any such length which yet requires legitimate forking of content. Russavia 18:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep. These bombings were a notable series of terrorism acts. It is fine to have a number of articles on such subjects. For example, we have an entire Category:Moscow theater hostage crisis. We can also have something like that here. It is fine to have some degree of content overlap, but probably the best approach would be to briefly summarize the corresponding content in main article. Unfortunately, there is no consensus about this at talk page of main article, Russian apartment bombings. Once again, this is not a matter of deletion but discussion.Biophys (talk) 19:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, when an article is entitled Evidence of..., this is blatant POV-pushing. Additionally, every single word is available word-for-word in Russian apartment bombings, which makes this a POV and content fork. We are an encyclopaedia, not a venue to advocate and to present "evidence" to "convict" subjects in the eyes of readers. That is so blatant, blind Freddy would see this article for what it is. And as you yourself say, there was no consensus for this on the talk page, yet you proceeded to create it anyway outside of process. That in itself is reason to merge back (which isn't necessary) and delete it. --Russavia 21:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Not so. We have Evidence of evolution, for example. It is fine to provide a list of evidence (per sources) with regard to notable events or controversies. I believe "evidence" is a sufficiently neutral title because it focuses on facts rather than opinions.Biophys (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Why necessarily POV? For example, one could include "the evidence" and "criticism of the evidence" to balance it.Biophys (talk) 23:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Evidence is usually used to criticize theories not vice versa. (Igny (talk) 17:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC))
  • Comment POV? WP is full of POV farms that start with the titles "Alleged..." which is far less real than credible evidence which has been presented. Seems advocating deletion along party lines. PetersV TALK 00:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep as a reasonable split, the main article would easily exceed 100k in size if this was merged back into the article. Martintg (talk) 03:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment Martin, no it wouldn't because it is still available word for word in the main article.
So I fail to see how this would increase article size anywhere close to 100k, when it is only at 57k now. At most it would increase article size by a couple of K. By all rights, if this article is kept, everything which is in the main article should be removed from that main article, in order to satisfy WP:CFORK guidelines, which in particular doesn't allow for duplicate identical content. And I doubt the conspiracy theorists amongst us would like to see that occur. Also, editors have been advised that cut-and-paste creation of articles is not within process, so I am somewhat stumped as to why an editor who was obviously aware of that discussion has acted out of process in relation to this article, in creating a POV content fork, and then demanding that it be debated when a merge/redirect is (rightly) done.
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE. This content is also duplicated at Theories of the Russian apartment bombings. Just how many articles do we require? I am now counting three articles with duplicate content. Every single one of these articles has been created out of process. This has to stop! --Russavia 03:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Reply. So, that is why you reinserted these segments back? Actually, I removed some other parts of the text - about "List of suspects" and "Theories". However everything was reinserted back by others for whatever reasons. Currently, the struggle around this article simply does not allows constructive editing. In the long run, some of the duplicated content should be shortened/removed, but a certain degree of content overlap is fine.Biophys (talk) 03:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Someone keeps deleting these paragraphs in the main article, too. --ilgiz (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep At least where the original alleged duplication is concerned it's regarding one section "Other related events" and some following versus "Explosives controversies" and some following. There is significant material, particularly the entire outset and exposition of the article, which is not a duplicate. There are better ways of handling duplication of more minor content than deletion of an entire article. It's not appropriate to paint the entire article as a complete fork/duplicate. PetersV TALK 04:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep, as no valid reason for deletion has been provided by the nominator. Article created out of process? The normal process for article creation is 1. Click creation link, 2. write content, 3. click save button. I fail to see how either step has been neglected by the editor in this case. As for the contention of fork, I believe the nominator is misinterpreting slight overlap in covered topics -- inevitable to give our dear reader a sense of context -- as content forking. Knowledge (XXG) is not a 3NR database; context is important here. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 10:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - sure, rename, revamp, but don't get rid of the information altogether. It's decently sourced and provides important insight into the event. - Biruitorul 19:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. One (talk) 00:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

List of deaths related to Russian apartment bombings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article has been created out of process. It is essentially a content fork of List of people allegedly involved in Russian apartment bombings, which itself is a content fork of Russian apartment bombings. As it is forked content, it has been redirected back to Russian apartment bombings but the article creator has undone this. There is also WP:SYN/WP:OR issues here. It also needs to be mentioned that Russian apartment bombings is NOT at any such length which yet requires legitimate forking of content. Russavia 18:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep. These are obviously two different lists. Not all people allegedly involved in the bombings were killed, and vice versa. Of course the "list of possibly related deaths" could be included in main article, Russian apartment bombings, but there is an ungoing discussion at its talk page about creating sub-articles. Main article is indeed very big, so this is basically a WP:MOS issue. One should debate merging, rather than use AfD in this case. I asked everyone to debate the problems at this article talk page. But nominator refused. An AfD nomination is not the way to debate WP:MOS issues.Biophys (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
This is not WP:OR because the death of every person in the list was related to the bombings in reliable sources. If anything was not, please tell this at article talk page, and the missing refs can be included.Biophys (talk) 19:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Of course it is. You yourself say that Litvinenko may have been killed because of his nutty view (that you endorse) that Putin is a paedophile. Why not an article List of people who were killed after calling Putin a paedophile? Other people's deaths are also tangently linked. It is WP:SYN, stating that Person A accused Person B of doing something, then Person A dies, so it must be because of the accusations that Person A made. And please don't cite "Death of a dissident", as a book written on an associate of Boris Berezovsky, by that associates wife and another associate of Boris Berezovsky, is not a reliable source of information in this context. Details of those killed are already in List of people allegedly involved in Russian apartment bombings and Russian apartment bombings. What's next? List of people with blue eyes who were killed and were only tangently related to Russian apartment bombings, which can then be split to List of people with blue eyes of which one is cock-eyed and were killed and were only tangently related to Russian apartment bombings? We are here to help build an encyclopaedia, not to advocate every tin-foil hat conspiracy theory out there. --Russavia 21:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Inventing a List of ridiculous article names does not really proves your point.Biophys (talk) 21:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. Out must articles like “Critique by some persons on alleged FSB non-involvement in Russian apartment bombings due to lack of evidence” go in a normal encyclopedia. Beatle Fab Four (talk) 19:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. The nomination appears to promote an extreme view of what is a fork. But Knowledge (XXG) is WP:NOT a database in the third normal form; it's intended to be read by humans. This means there is inevitably some slight overlap between topics of various articles. In the case at hand, there's a clear and definite difference between the topics of the supposedly "forked" articles; it would be rather unconstructive to interpret the minor overlap as a case of prohibited forking. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 20:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
We now have 5 articles on these bombings, and content is being duplicated in ALL with nothing being added. That Digwuren is firmly against content forking guidelines. And even more so when the main article is a whopping 57k (of which almost a third is made up of references) - that is not a size that content needs to be split, and then resplit from the split, like this has been. --Russavia 21:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
We can have as many articles on a terrorism act as needed (see Category:Moscow theater hostage crisis for example) as long as these articles help a reader to find information he is looking for (that is what encyclopedia about). However, attacking other editors (as you just did with respect to Diwuren) hardly proves your point.Biophys (talk) 23:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment You have used the same argument at Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/Evidence_of_FSB_involvement_in_the_Russian_apartment_bombings#Evidence_of_FSB_involvement_in_the_Russian_apartment_bombings - it would not push it past 100k, because content is already in the main article. This is another WP:CFORK done out of process. --Russavia 03:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Robert Hall Clothes. - Eldereft (cont.) 17:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert Hall Village (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable defunct discounter. SchuminWeb (Talk) 18:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Keep. Icestorm815 • Talk 04:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Suddenly at Midnight (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Extremely short, non notable article containing little or no context or content- opening sentence and very brief plot summary. HJ Mitchell (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to agree on the notability now. The article appeared to have been abandoned but it looks a lot better with PC78's improvements., it still lacks WP:RS though. HJ Mitchell (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, it's got one RS. ;) The Korean title seemed to get a decent amount of google hits, but you'll need someone who can read Korean to make any use of them. PC78 (talk) 17:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Notable film and frequently rerun on South Korean TVs. It was one of the popular horror films in the 80s according to critics. The actors and actresses were notable at that time as well. The movie is referred to as a classic of Korean horror film.--Caspian blue 18:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  00:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

2006 Tampa Bay Storm season (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I don't think the arena football league is a big enough league to have individual team's have season articles.

So I am also nominating all the other arena football league team season articles.

BUC (talk) 17:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Icestorm815 • Talk 23:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

US government position on invasion of Iraq (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This topic is already described in Rationale for the Iraq War using reliable third-party publications. On the other hand, US government position on invasion of Iraq is a poorly named soap-box for people to attack both the Bush administration and Democratic politicians who once believed Iraq retained extensive stockpiles of illicit weaponry. In addition, it cites self-published sources who claim Saddam Hussein trained the September 11 attackers. (e.g. HUSSEINANDTERROR.COM). I do not see the point in keeping this article when the other page describes the U.S. government position so much better. Dynablaster (talk) 17:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. TheAE talk/sign 23:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Green's Logical Inclusion Theorem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A thorough search turns up nothing but Wiki-mirrors. bd2412 T 17:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  00:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

List of active drive-in theaters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

North America-centric list, used mainly as a linkfarm to link to nearly every drive-in's website. Minimal attempts have been made to source the article or remove the huge number of links. While there are plenty of theater directories online, most of them are based on user-submitted information and therefore not reliable, so I have no idea how a list of this sort could even be sourced. Furthermore, this list seems to be a big violation of WP:NOT#DIR and I don't see how it's any different from, say, a list of store locations (which is also not allowed per WP:NOT#DIR). I'll admit that I'm interested in drive-in theaters myself, but I'm not going to let WP:ILIKEIT stand in the way of a list that can't easily be sourced. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 17:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. —PC78 (talk) 18:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep Encyclopedic and notable. Many reliable and independent sources can be found for drive in theaters in general as well as for each of the few surviving ones, if the nominator would check online and print sources. Is it claimed that any of them are not really drive in theaters? Edison (talk) 21:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep The subject is extremely notable because drive-in plays a distinctive role in U.S. popular culture. Sourcing would not be a problem, and the link farm element of the article can be cleaned up with editing. Pastor Theo (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep I don't like the link farm element either but the subject is notable, no question about it. A quick search shows that sourcing each entry should not be a problem, 1.--J 23:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong delete per WP:NOTDIR. Comments above seem to be confusing this with Drive-in theater, which is a seperate article and indeed a notable subject. But there is no inherant notability in a list of this kind, and it's basically just a linkfarm which violates WP:EL and most likely WP:LIST as well. PC78 (talk) 22:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete, Knowledge (XXG) is not a directory. Stifle (talk) 10:08, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. A directory of things. Arguing that drive-in theatres are notable is rather silly, as Drive-in theatre is not up for deletion. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep as part of the enyclopedic treatment on the topic drive-in theatres. Article needs a better lede though. Hiding T 13:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Note I started to fix the article getting rid of the "link farm" element and added a reliable source to each entry, please see List_of_active_drive-in_theaters#Florida. --J 15:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep, given keep and delete as the only options, I believe it has enough merit for the keep. I do agree it doesn't fit well in it's current format, but might be saved with heavy editing. Idea - is there another wiki that this article might be more at home at? I could see that linked from the Drive-In Theatres article, pretty much making everyone happy. --Reverend Loki (talk) 15:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep From the creation of the original incarnation in New Jersey to today, the drive-in saw a meteoric rise and a spectacular decline. Remaining locations are a notable topic. Any issues with content and links or possible US-centrism should be addressed in the article, not by deletion. The cleanup that has already started is a step in the right direction. Alansohn (talk) 19:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and PC78. This is basically a directory and a linkfarm. A list (or category, or both) of notable drive-in theatres might be appropriate, but a list of links to drive-in theatres is most definitly not. I'd be willing to reconsider if this can be managed only through third-party sources and a degree of discrimination is involved in determining whats in the list. This is apparantly notability in that they are a dying pasttime, but I'm not convinced that a list is the best way to document this. ThemFromSpace 03:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
  • VERY STRONG KEEP: List is very informative but needs more sources and expansion. Drive-ins are part of American history but they're a dying breed. Historical subjects should NEVER be deleted. TomCat4680 (talk) 12:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    How is the Moonlight Outdoor Theatre more of a historical subject than the Mac's convenience store at the end of the street where I live? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 12:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    Comment: Because convenience stores aren't part of Americana like drive-ins are. Do you know anyone who's lost their virginity in a convenience store? Or who rounds up there friends on a warm summer night to go to the 7-11? or who sits on their roof with a radio so they can look at the Slurpee machine? There's no comparison. They're just as historical as any old house or warfield. TomCat4680 (talk) 13:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    So do you have any sources that indicate that any of these specific drive-ins are a significant part of Americana, or are you simply arguing that we shouldn't delete Drive-in theatre? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 14:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    Change to merge: Well lets merge this article into that one then. It'd definitely improve that article. I'm AGAINST deletions but FOR mergers. TomCat4680 (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    Merge what? An exhaustive directory of every existing drive-in theatre is no more useful there than here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 18:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    Many of the surviving drive-ins are notable, the list already includes specific sources for some entries and more sources are available . --J 15:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    Can you offer something more specific than a shotgun Google News search? Specifically, what sources would you use? What would this article look like if it used those sources? The topic of historical drive-ins has potential, but I don't see how this list is a start on it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 15:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Check out List_of_active_drive-in_theaters#Florida, where each drive-in has a RS. I understand the main concern about WP:NOT#DIR but this can be fix by editing and sourcing each Drive-In. If some drive-ins are not notable (I doubt it) they can be removed from the list. I'm waiting for the result of this AfD to continue replacing the "link-farm" element with reliable sources. --J 15:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
That's just a directory of theatres, though. I'm not asking you to add inline sources; I'm asking how you'd use those inline sources. A directory of drive-ins isn't improved by adding a single news story that mentions that drive-in to each listing. How do you intend to write an article? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 15:53, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Stop arguing with people. You had your say now step back and let others have theirs. I know I'm NOT changing my vote again. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, okay. I was hoping you'd spend a bit of your time trying to bring me to your viewpoint. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Minds are like parachutes, they work best when open. Why don't you try to look on the other side of the coin? I know US 23 Drive-In theater is pretty notable for me anyway. I saw Back to the Future and Ghostbusters there when i was 5 years old. I saw the Flintstones there when it was jammed packed on it 2nd night. I saw Wayne's World there every night for 2 weeks straight. All of these on the old screen that was burned down by arsonists. and back when the playground was still there. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Answer my question or address my assumptions, then. Currently, this is just a directory of every drive-in theatre that exists, and we don't do that here on Knowledge (XXG). How do you intend to use this directory to write an article? What would this article look like? Not everything that is important to a person needs an article or even a list entry; everyone has significant memories attached to a childhood home, but we don't (and shouldn't!) have List of houses. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Well no, unless a house is on the National Register of Historic Places, or a state or local historical listing. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Is this list the list of some sort of register of historical drive-ins, or just a list of every single existing example of a certain kind of business establishment? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Its NOT just that though. Its MEMORIES. Its AMERICANA. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
According to whom? There are registers of historic homes, guides to noteworthy restaurants (and that includes diners, another bit of Americana), registers of historic places, etc. This, on the other hand, is a list of every single case of a certain sort of establishment, founded on the idea that all examples of that establishment are important...somehow. Are you proposing we turn this into a list of historic drive-ins; if so, based on what standard? If not, what standard does this list have other than being a directory of things that exist? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 19:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Well I didn't say change it to anything. What I said was merge into Drive-in theatre. I don't see how its passes the so called paradoxial rule not directory. it does say however "there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic" Its notable because drive-ins are a dying breed. In fact they're on life support due to digital media's growing popularity. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
It's a list of things that exist, with no more information than where they are and what their website is (if any). That's not good. I'm wondering what content you would propose we add to the article to make it something other than a bare list of things. Whether these things are a dying breed (there are hundreds on this list alone) or particularly American (we have dozen plus lists of Australian and Canadian drive-ins) doesn't answer that question. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Go ahead and add every single one worldwide. I'm all for that. Turn the external links into inline citations though. TomCat4680 (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not proposing we do that. It's not any more useful for being international. Do you have any sort of proposal on how this can be something other than a bare list of things that exist? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've answered that question twice already. Merge into Drive-in theatre, turn external links into in-line citations, and expand into prose so its NOT just a list, its a high quality, informative, educational article for anyone interested in vintage places. TomCat4680 (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
What sort of prose do you propose we add? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Stop moving my text over. I propose information about the life of the theater. For example, here's one:
US 23 Twin Drive-In (a.k.a. US 23 Highway Theater), located at #### Fenton Rd. in Mundy Township, Michigan, just outside of Flint, is currently the only active theater in Genesee County. It was opened in 1951 and has operated continuously ever since. It has been family run by the Worthington family for its entire existence but since Lou Worthington's death on February 18, 2009, it has been up for lease. It originally featured a large wooden screen with US 23 in large red letters, but was burned down in the mid 1990s (1996 I think) by arsonists who were never caught and replaced by a standard metal screen.
Everything there is sourced to a Flint Journal article , a major newspaper for the region that unaffiliated with the owners and an unaffiliated fan site. Is that encyclopedic enough for you? TomCat4680 (talk) 20:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
So what would the criteria for inclusion in the list be, then? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 20:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
What part of it don't you understand? Its exists and its well sourced. What's your criteria for deletion, in your own words, without pointing to a policy or cutting and pasting from it? TomCat4680 (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm just trying to understand the topic of the list. If it's just a directory of establishments that exist and some basic directory data for each (ownership, address, date of founding, etc.), then I am opposed to having this list, as it's merely a directory of establishments that exist. I understand that there's an argument that these are historical or that this list illustrates something, and I'm trying to understand how. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 21:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay it meets WP:NOTABILITY via guidelines a and b
gigantic copy-paste removed for readability
The Flint Journal article is a reliable source because it is a major regional newspaper. The information is verifiable. The fan site is independent and unaffiliated of the subject. Therefore WP:NOTDIRECTORY fails here.
Understand now? TomCat4680 (talk) 21:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
What part of WP:NOTDIR says anything about verifiability? We could verify similar facts about every Pizza Hut in the United States, and Pizza Hut is certainly notable/a part of American culture/etc. I'm trying to understand why these are different, what makes this list not a directory. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've answered your question several times already. Stop asking it over and over and stop modifying my posts. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I've only modified them for readability, which is already strained here.
Let me lay out my argument, and see if you can point out a major flaw in it. Currently, this is a list of every single extant instance of a sort of establishment. Lists of establishments, regardless of whether the sort of establishment is notable or not, are generally inappropriate article subjects. Some ways to fix that are showing individual notability for each member of the list (by WP:GNG's standards, reliable, multiple, substantial, etc.), or showing some sort of topic and reasonable criteria that are not just "every extant business of such-and-such sort", or turning the list into a navigation tool. Hell, even a convincing IAR argument about this directory would work, but IAR arguments almost always need to be Really Good to keep people from just IAIARing.
Now, almost all of the keeps up top are "Keep, drive-in theatres are notable" which doesn't explain why we need a directory of drive-ins when we make a policy of not having directories of businesses. I'm asking you (or anyone else really) to address how this can be fixed or why we need this directory. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Fifth time you've asked the same question. I've answered it all five times, so has everyone else that voted keep. Ask another one now. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Disappointing, but okay. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 22:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
This AFD has been open for 7 days. I propose a keep and close per WP:SNOW and WP:HEY. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong keep Re: North America-centric list, used mainly as a linkfarm to link to nearly every drive-in's website. Minimal attempts have been made to source the article or remove the huge number of links. this is something which can be done by article improvement, we have no WP:Deadline. Ikip (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was SNOW keep Questionable nom, plenty of sources found by everyone except the nom. Jclemens (talk) 02:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Amy (1998 film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

no source cited, none found by searches Oo7565 (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. –Juliancolton |  00:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Down by the Riverside (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. New Zealand movie. No assertion of notability. Delete. Change to Keep per the rescue effort. Awaiting consensus before withdrawing altogether.  Blanchardb -- timed 17:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Keep, bad faith nom. 00:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Alta Mira (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article fails WP:V, WP:N Oo7565 (talk) 17:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep. I've already issued a final warning to the nominator, who despite repeated warnings is continuing apparently going through Special:Allpages tagging articles for deletion for spurious reasons. – iridescent 19:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - Nonsensical nomination. No explanation as to why the nom thinks the article fails the guidelines cited, but the article topic is the in-depth subject of independent reliable sources, easily passing WP:N, not to mention WP:V (which isn't a notability guideline). --Oakshade (talk) 20:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  15:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Painful Maturity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. Stub about a South Korean film with no references other than IMDB and no assertion of notability. Delete.  Blanchardb -- timed 17:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Also nominating Kang Dae-ha (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), the article about the director of said movie.

Do you have any sources showing that these credits are to notable productions? Lots of indie screenwriters self produce small films. And IMDB filmographies are not reliable sources, as anyone can edit them. There have been many cases of peole editing their own listings to add things that do not exist. We would need independent sources. DreamGuy (talk) 14:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. —PC78 (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. —PC78 (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Extreme keep and fuyrther source per per , , and . And, in the interests of reducing anglo-centricism on wikipedia, it would be great to have a Korean-reading wikipedian take a look at 아픈 성숙 in Google News, Google books, and Google scholar. Not being sourced is a concernm but when such is easily available, it is no reason to delete. Schmidt, 19:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment Yes-- Park Chul-soo is a major Korean director, and I'm sure their is information out there about this film. I'm far from fluent, but can get by in Korean, and will add what I can later on. Dekkappai (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Film article: Keep; Kang Dae-ha: Neutral. About the film: This is a case of an article on a "notable" subject started prematurely. I believe there is sourcing to be found on the subject-- highly likely in print, in Korean-- but because of the nature of the subject, it is going to be very difficult to find. It is unfair to expect an equal level of available sourcing from the latest U.S. blockbuster and a 30-year-old early film from a major director in a country whose cinema was, basically, closed to the rest of the world at the time, and would remain so for another decade and a half. I've looked around online and can't find much, but have added some to the article. Still, Park Chul-soo is a very important South Korean film director. Though this is one of his earlier and lesser-known films, the entire output of major directors should have some coverage. Some indications of Park's stature in Korean cinema: His films were chosen as the best film of the year at the Grand Bell Awards (South Korea's nearest equivalent to the U.S. Academy Awards) two years in a row-- 1985 and 1986. Park's film 301, 302 was South Korea's submission to the US academy awards in 1995, and, according to this interview with the director, it was the first South Korean film to receive international release. In 1999 the Korea Film Directors' Society gave Park the Best Director prize for Kazoku Cinema at their Chunsa Film Art Awards. As a sign that he's been an important director for decades now-- Green Chair (2005) is a more recent significant film from Park, shown in international film festivals-- Sundance, Berlin Film Festival... I know some will scoff, thump the latest Knowledge (XXG) "notability" guidelines and quote them by verse and scripture, and damn this film as not meeting standards created by (mainly) U.S., English-speaking editors. But when sourcing for even the most minor and ephemeral of current U.S. films is so easy to find, and yet it is nearly impossible to find for even major Korean films from a few decades ago, I believe that applying such "notability" guidelines "equally" would result in an extremely biased coverage of world cinema. Dekkappai (talk) 06:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    No notability standard requires English-language sources or full text available online. Do you have some sources for the Grand Bell Awards nominations/wins, to make the director's article a clear-cut case? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    Koreanfilm.org (run since 1999 by Darcy Paquet, who was (is?) Variety's South Korean reporter, put together this Excel file note, under the Grand Bell Awards tag: "1985, 24th: The Mother (dir. Park Chul-soo), Hwang Ki-sung Productions" and "1986, 25th: Pillar of Mist (dir. Park Chul-soo), Hwang Ki-sung Productions"). Lee Young-il, Richard Lynn Greever, tr. (1988). The History of Korean Cinema. Seoul: Motion Picture Promotion Corporation. ISBN 89-88095-12-X.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) has a listing of major South Korean film awards at the back of the book (I don't have a copy of it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it lists up to 1986 or '87). Though IMDb doesn't list the awards for those particular years, it does show that Park won an award at the Montréal World Film Festival. The KMDb listing for 어미 (1985) (Eomi - Mother) directed by Park Cheol-soo (감독 : 박철수) shows it won the award (제24회 대종상 영화제 (1985) ), and 안개기둥 (1986), directed by Park won 제25회 대종상 영화제 (1986). Their listing for Park also gives several other awards including several PaekSang Arts Awards (백상예술대상)
    1980년
    제16회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 신인상 (밤이면 내리는 비)
    1988년
    제24회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 감독상 (접시꽃 당신)
    1994년
    제18회 황금촬영상 시상식 : 감독상 (우리 시대의 사랑)
    1996년
    제32회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 대상 (학생부군신위)
    제32회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 감독상 (학생부군신위)
etc... could probably track down more, later, but have to run now. Let's just pray Park doesn't turn out to have a performing twin. ;) Dekkappai (talk) 13:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • OK, I've got my copy of The History of Korean Cinema here now. On Park Chol-su: Park's films winning the 1985 and 1986 Grand Bell is listed on page 278. Park and these two films are mentioned in the section "New Directors inthe 1980s" on p. 248. Also, in a profile of the director on page 330, it mentions that he won the New Director Award at the Hankuk Play and Film Arts Awards with his first feature (1979), and lists The Painful Maturity as one of his principal films. (Also, it might be worth mentioning that the KMDb cited above is not just the Korean equivalent of IMDb. It's an official national site maintained by the Korean Film Archive.) Dekkappai (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    Looks good to me. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 02:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep the film for now, as Dekkappai has turned up some decent sources to start writing a proper article. I'm ambivalent about Kang Dae-ha; it's an unsourced BLP but it has possibility. Keep the director's article as well. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Changing from Neutral on Kang Dae-ha to Keep. I didn't know the name, but apparently he's not "just" a screenwriter, he's directed several films, written 500 screenplays, and apparently was publishing works on literature in the '60s. I'm getting this from KMDb (again, an official site of the Korean Film Archive-- affiliated with the South Korean government). Korean cinema is still lacking articles on many major films and persons, and Kang is obviously not as "notable" (at least within film) as Park Cheol-su, but still seems worthy of an article, and since one is started there's no point in deleting it now... I'll do what work I can on it later. Dekkappai (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep both Kang Dae-ha and the film articles. I can find two news articles on Kang's career as a poet (he was a versatile artist) and among his prolific works (wrote about 50 screenplays), screenplays for hit-dramas in 80s are included. On the other hand, the starred actors and actresses Yu In-chon, Yoon Il-bong, Jeong Hye-seon are still notable figure in Korean film/drama industry. (Yu In-chon is the current minister of Culture, Sports and Tourism of South Korea, ah..I have to create an article of him too). I think the notability is confirmed so far. --Caspian blue 00:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
  • keep. I think, that the film is important because its director Park Chul-soo is very notable film director. --Snek01 (talk) 22:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

List of EMS Council Meetings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete per, I suppose, WP:NOONECARES. Really, the agendas of meetings at some not very prominent organisation are beyond our scope, and so is a directory of those meetings. Unreferenced, no coverage in third-party sources, not notable. European Medical Students' Association is a mess as is; we don't need these other two. Biruitorul 16:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related page:

List of EMSA Meetings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Sophie Johnson (Alien) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Notability concerns; consists solely of in-universe fiction with excessive detail; will probably not be referenceable SynergyBlades (talk) 16:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Question: Hey Synergy, I noticed you turned a whole bunch of that author's contributions into redirects. Why not do that here? (Question applies to the next AfD as well.) Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  15:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

List of countries by date of last occupation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unmaintainable and, in many cases, the product of original research. I strongly doubt that His Majesty's Australian, Canadian and New Zealand subjects considered themselves "occupied" by the United Kingdom or even that the UK was a "foreign power" until their countries adopted the Statute of Westminster. I rather doubt that Croats think of the Second Yugoslavia as having been an "occupation" or "foreign" (if anything, Serbs were the disadvantaged group there) or that nostalgic Kyrgyz and Kazakhs think of the Soviet period as having constituted an "occupation". In any case, there's no documentation for any of these claims. Biruitorul 16:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete As Drmies says, soapbox fight waiting to happen. Sceptre 17:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. In addition to the nom's concern with regard to Australia, there are those who would say that Australia is still under occupation, from the Aborigines' point of view. As for Canada before 1931, those who would regard the rule of the UK as an "occupation" regime are few and far between. -- Blanchardb -- timed 18:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. "Occupation" is far too wide a term, and this is a magnet for every editor who wants to rake over political issues regarding their country - see Macedonia, Ireland (state), Liancourt Rocks, etc etc ad nauseam. And the _UK_ has been under occupation since 1066? Surely _England_ has been? And some would argue that Scotland has been under occupation since 1688, and the UK since the Maastricht Treaty, and... I hope the point has been made. :) Tevildo (talk) 18:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - This is not a list of countries now under occupation, it is a list of ALL sovereign states with their history of previous occupation (or external control). Scotland, Liancourt Rocks, etc. are not on the list because they are not sovereign states. I understand your point about UK vs. England, but the UK is the successor state to England, and most historians would agree that 1066 was the last time it suffered a foreign occupation. Some might argue that the Glorious Revolution of 1688 was a foreign occupation, but I think the mainstream view is that it was a civil war. Goustien (talk) 19:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep but rename I admit that the terms I chose when creating this article have unfortunate connotations. As mentioned above, many of these circumstances should not be described as "occupation"; my intended meaning was something more like "government from outside the current country's borders." In some cases this relates to the birth of a country from a friendly "mother country" (as Australia from the UK), in others to the liberation of a country from a hostile foreign occupier (as Poland from Nazi Germany). However, despite the different circumstances, I think a sortable list such as this is useful for comparative purposes, to show which countries have a long, uninterrupted history of independence compared with others which are younger creations or which have re-emerged from outside dominance. Sorting by the third column allows one to group countries in ways which I don't think are available in other Knowledge (XXG) articles. Nor is this article the product of original research: most dates can be found in the infoboxes of the various country articles, or in the country history articles. If there are any controversial dates, these should be footnoted. I will edit the article to tone down the use of objectionable terms. Can anyone suggest a better overall name for this article, e.g., List of countries by date of last external government? Goustien (talk) 18:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete In the present state, the article is not much more than a list of countries without any dates, save the years. Besides, occupation is not well defined, as pointed above. --Tone 19:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete Aside that this is just a place for stacking up POVs removed from elsewhere, it really abuses the notion of what a list is supposed to be providing. Dahn (talk) 19:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - Contributors to this list should avoid POVs and merely compile dates established elsewhere in Knowledge (XXG). The existing articles on "independence," "formation," and "achieving statehood" (see links in See also section) are inadequate for this purpose. Could I ask people to please suggest changes to make this article acceptable? Goustien (talk)
Contributors should NOT compile data from elsewhere in WP but from a reliable source! Otherwise it is OR. --Tone 20:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, theoretically all data in Knowledge (XXG) is supposed to be based on a reliable source; but one should not probably not copy information from other articles without at least making a reasonable attempt at verifying it. DHowell (talk) 03:28, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete WP:CSD G3 - blatant vandalism. --Angelo (talk) 08:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Mega Bank Liga (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A Copy of Montenegrin First League, and changed the nation to Andolia and champion to FK Zakom Website, purely hoax or vandalism. (Use afd requested by User:Dank55). Matthew_hk tc 16:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Wizardman 15:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

All Saints Pastoral centre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

nn centre Oo7565 (talk) 16:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete (non-admin closure) - 2 ... says you, says me, suggestion box 04:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

CRISP Foundation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This group is clearly unnotable. Don't know why it wasn't speedily deleted. PROD was removed by article creator so here we are... Smartse (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


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The result was delete. Any user wishing to have this userfied can drop me a line. Stifle (talk) 08:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete, because consensus is quite clear on the content being unverifiable. The author did write that some source had been used, but without it being presented it cannot pass WP:V at this point. The sole keep vote does nothing to address this point. I am leaving the question of whether to redirect to Pukapukan language open (as Uncle G proposed). There are a few reasons I'm not doing so right now:

  1. There is no discernable consensus here that a redirect should be made (although that option has not been fully discussed).
  2. If the source Tshilo12 used does surface, it may be better to leave this title open.
  3. Pukapuka and Puka-Puka have nothing to do with each other, and I am concerned that a redirect, especially one immediately following a deletion may cause some confusion.

Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Puka-Pukan language (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Procedural nom for IP editor. Reason for nom (per talk page): "The article should be deleted, as that language does not exist at all. The island was settled after WWII, so no specific language does exist there". I have no opinion on the deletion (or not) of the article. ascidian | talk-to-me 14:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • The deletion discussion at the German Knowledge (XXG) for this very article makes for interesting reading. The German Wikipedians first pointed to us, then noticed that we cited no sources, then checked out sources for themselves (13th and 14th editions of Ethnologue), and discovered that there weren't any. I strongly suspect that 91.141.44.13 (talk · contribs) is one of those people, helpfully informing us that we have an unverifiable article.

    And it appears that we have. Here's the language family as laid out on page 133 of ISBN 9780521471664:

  • You'll find a similar family tree (whose differences are not relevant to the issue of this purported language) on page 118 of ISBN 9780824810191. There's another similar one (again whose differences are irrelevant here) on page 261 of ISBN 9780520080027.

    A supporting source is Thomas Albert Sebeok (1976). Current Trends in Linguistics. Mouton. p. 485., which in prose form says the same thing: Nuclear Polynesian subdivides into Eastern Polynesian and a Samoic Outlier group. All of the languages east of Samoa fall into the former group except Pukapukan, which is in the latter group.

    The Pukapukan language exists. Ironically, its (currently incomplete) infobox should contain, in the language family section, what this article's infobox does contain. But there's no evidence in sources that this language, as described, is recognized. The Pukapukan mentioned in the sources is the one of the Northern Cook Islands.

    This is unverifiable. And the disambiguation at Pukapukan needs fixing. There's no ambiguity, and there aren't multiple subjects. This is in fact an alternative name for Pukapukan language, albeit one that is mainly used informally, with linguists tending to prefer "Pukapukan" from what I can find. Redirect. Uncle G (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

  • weak delete: The people of Puka Puka in the Tuamotu archipelago do indeed seem to speak a South Marquesan dialect, maybe not really a distinct language. (Nothing to do with the Samoic Pukapukan language spoken in an island in the Cooks) But there are no references, not surprising for such a small place, and no information given on the language/dialect. This article adds nothing that is not included in the article on Puka-Puka. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm unsure right now what to do. The article was originally created by TShilo12, who otherwise seems like a mostly reasonable and reliable editor (I've left a note on his talk page requesting sources and pointing him to this discussion). The other Polynesian language I can see that he's created is Rapan language--in this context, note that the Eastern Polynesian languages page (evidently equivalent to Marquesic languages) says: "The erstwhile Marquesic Puka-Pukan language, spoken in Puka-Puka and the Disappointment Islands in northeastern Tuamotu; the Tahitic Rakahanga-Manihiki language, spoken on Rakahanga and Manihiki in the northern Cook Islands; and the ungrouped Rapan language, spoken on Rapa Iti in the Austral Islands, were not included in the database ." Though Ethnologue isn't always a reliable source, it does include within East Polynesian the Rapan language (as "Rapa", code RAY) and Rakahanga-Manihiki (code RKH - note that TShilo12 did not create the Knowledge (XXG) article for this language, and that contrary to Knowledge (XXG)'s claim, it is in fact represented in the above-mentioned database). But not a "Puka-Pukan" within Eastern Polynesian. Until some of this is clarified, I'm going to withhold judgment or a !vote --Miskwito (talk) 16:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the article. Given the location of the island, it seems entirely plausible that the people speak a Marquesan dialect and the few sources I found on Google seem to confirm that. But without any references and without any further information, I can't see much value in the article. The one on the island seems enough. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
  • There's plenty of reason to doubt the accuracy of that article: There's not a single source that supports it and plenty that say no such thing. Why are you putting what is written in another unsourced Knowledge (XXG) article ahead of what you can find in published literature on this subject? If you want some published literature, look at some of the books above. Or look at appendix 2 of The lexicon of Proto-Oceanic (ISBN 9781921313189), pages 351–352: It's the same family tree as above. (It cites Marck's 2000 article as its source.) Just as with all the others, Eastern Polynesian is not the same as the Marquesic group, despite what an unsourced Knowledge (XXG) article says. Just as with all the others, Pukapukan is an outlier under Nuclear Polynesian. Just as with all the others, there's no mention of a Puka-Pukan language in the Marquesic group, despite what an unsourced Knowledge (XXG) article says. Why on Earth are you placing a pseudonymous Knowledge (XXG) editor ahead of published, accredited, identifiable, experts in the subject such as Jeff Marck of ANU and Russell Gray of the University of Auckland? Why are you basing your decisions on what "seems plausible" rather than on what is actually in the published literature? Uncle G (talk) 01:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I've been asked whether I have a source for the article, and the answer is (1) I didn't make it up, but (2) I don't remember where I read about it. Maybe in the BPB Museum bulletin "Marquesan Legends", maybe in Fatu Hiva, perhaps any number of other sources, I simply don't remember. As I recall, from what I read the language was no longer spoken, in Puka Puka (nothing to do with Pukapuka in the Cooks), or elsewhere. When I wrote the stub, I was doing a brain dump of a lot of stuff having to do with the Marquesas, and my interest in the subject began to wane 15 years ago already... Tomer 02:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete as unverifiable unless TShilo12/Tomer remembers where he heard about it. ;-) —Angr 05:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
    No objection, except that I didn't hear about it, I read about it. There is, I think, especially in this context, a significant difference... :-p I do reserve the right to recreate the article, should it be deleted, without prejudice, if I manage to dig up the source where I originally read about it, before my deteriorating brain forgets I have a wp acct. :-D Tomer 07:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete no reliable sources and therefore unverifiable, and a good chance it's a hoax.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a perfect example of both deletionist paranoia & the need for Pure Wiki Deletion. Knowledge (XXG) is not World Book. Ventifax (talk) 04:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    Looking at your user page I see you've written a slightly more substantial response to this AFD: "The deletionists (who sometimes seem to be the dominant culture lately) are actually contending that a) the language in existence can't exist because, "it's really just a dialect;" (Oh? I guess we should delete Cantonese language & Norwegian language then) & b) that the article could be a fraud, so we should delete it." It looks to me like you might misunderstand the problem (at least as far as the dialect thing is concerned). First of all, the objection is not at all that this is "just a dialect". It's that the only language called "Puka-Pukan" that anyone here can find in reliable published sources is not the same language described on this Knowledge (XXG) article. If it exists, whether it's a separate Marquesan language or a dialect of some other Marquesan language is beside the point. Secondly, while I don't agree with some of the people who think Tomer made the whole article up or something (I'd rather assume good faith), there's simply no sources for any of the information, and Tomer himself doesn't know where to find it. The article is therefore unverifiable, at least for the present time, and so (our argument goes) is inappropriate for this encyclopedia. No one would stop the recreation of the article if if sources were found. --Miskwito (talk) 05:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • The Puka-Puka article mentions that the language spoken on the island is Marquesan. This article says no more. I absolutely assume good faith: it seems highly likely that this article is entirely accurate. But I see no reason for a short stub with no sources that just repeats one sentence in the Puka-Puka article. Aymatth2 (talk) 03:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC) (not remotely a deletionist)
  • Delete You can just copy it to your user space and work on it there. Until we have viable sources, this really doesn't belong on Knowledge (XXG). There is no prejudice associated with the deletion of the article. If you need assistance in saving this article, I highly recommend speaking with User:MichaelQSchmidt. He can help you with the intricacies of Knowledge (XXG). — BQZip01 —  03:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

AfDs for this article:
    Stan Krome (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This is an orphan page that reads like a resume. None of the sources listed show notability or even mention the subject. Cleanup tags have been repeatedly removed by a couple SPAs. Edward321 (talk) 14:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:01, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Enhilex Address Book Software (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
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    The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:01, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Bon Wen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Recreated article afte it got deleted as a prod. No notability established, no external references, a bordercase of WP:MADEUP. Tone 14:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    G4 applies to article that were deleted in AfD discussion. This one was a PROD, so I am bringing it here now. --Tone 20:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    My mistake; I guess I wasn't paying attention. Make that Delete per nom. Cnilep (talk) 14:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:45, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Stanley A. Klein (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Fails wp:PROF -- Jeandré, 2009-04-19t13:53z 13:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —Salih (talk) 14:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep Full Professor at a major University. Enough publications to pass WP:PROF. Salih (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • What criteria in WP:PROF am I missing? -- Jeandré, 2009-04-19t14:43z
        • Criterion 1; The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. Scopus author profile returns this. Also, Googlebooks returns 62 hits. Salih (talk) 15:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
          • Scopus link doesn't work for me. If his work "has made significant impact in scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources", shouldn't there be RSes saying that? I missed wp:profs "When used, this criterion is generally applied to indicate that a tenured full or associate professor in a high ranking institution in the US, or equivalent rank elsewhere, is above the average." which is a strange notability measurement because Berkeley had about 1900 professors 18 years ago. -- Jeandré, 2009-04-20t08:23z
    • Keep. I agree with Salih. The subject meets WP:PROF criterion #1 (significant impact in scholarly discipline, broadly construed). Citation impact clearly indicates notability.--Eric Yurken (talk) 17:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Shouldn't these be citations of Klein's work in trusted sources by others, not a list of articles he's published? ~~
    • Keep by our usual standards. I suspect most or all full professors at Berkeley will pass WP:PROF. One does not get this rank there without significant accomplishment and being known widely as an authority in the profession. I trust their ability to judge this more than our own. (OK, I admit I'm an alumnus). DGG (talk) 18:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep - Salih, Eric Yurken and DGG make valid points for keeping. Also he has passed muster of the Psychonomic Society which requires notability. Also being a senior member of SPIE. So outside of notability, what other criteria is valid for deletion? I see none. As to notability the Psychonomic Society. SPIE and Berkeley have made that distinction for us. Also Klein does in my evaluation meet Knowledge (XXG):Notability (academics). As that states “ If an academic/professor meets any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, they are notable.” So why are we waste our time on this? If an academic/professor meets any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, they are notable.Jlrobertson (talk) 15:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Added comment to Keep on criteria for inclusion:
    - The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association (Klein is)
    - The person is or has been an editor-in-chief of a major well-established journal in their subject area (Klein is a topical editor of OSV – Not Chief but close).
    - A tenured full or associate professor in a high ranking institution in the US, or equivalent rank elsewhere, is above the average (DDG has it right).
    - The citations in Goggle, Scopus and at the University of California at Berkeley establish verifiability of Klein’s work.Jlrobertson (talk) 12:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep. I'm not seeing the argument for the other criteria of WP:PROF, but (picking out the vision-related papers from Google scholar) he seems to be co-author on six papers with over 100 citations each; that's enough to convince me that he passes criterion #1. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  15:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Akron Quakers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This article was originally tagged for AFD by User:Oo7565 but twinkle seems to have messed up the nom and it was never completed, so I'm just finishing the job. Anyway, this article is about a basketball team/franchise that never played a game and does not seem notable enough for it's own article. Google news only returns 3 news articles (one of which is actually about wikipedia), which does not satisfy the general notability guideline. ascidian | talk-to-me 13:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Merge/Redirect This seems interesting to me, but it looks like there's never going to be more sourceable material for a paragraph or two...how about creating a single page for all these teams and redirect? Maybe start by merging to Akron Cougars; there are 5: news sources that cropped up for them. I found only one source: for Akron Energy. It seems though, that the teams collectively form a notable phenomenon that we would be able to write a fairly full article on. Cazort (talk) 13:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Delete, team never even existed. If there's an appropriate merge target, then merging is OK too. Stifle (talk) 09:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Delete for the same reason my failed proposal to get rich jackalope ranching doesn't merit an encyclopedia article.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Hell Has Harbour Views (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unsourced, prod rv seems to say there are no sources. -- Jeandré, 2009-04-19t13:18z 13:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was Keep. I'm ending this one a bit early due to the snowy nature, and that nom. seems to concede the keep points. Good show, all. Wknight94 19:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

    Adam Bright (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable minor leaguer, good faith search brings up no coverage other than game recaps doesn't pass WP:ATHLETE. Giants27 /C 12:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Keep, you're right, the WBC is the near the top level of the sport, so I am switching to keep. Thanks, Genius101 20:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
    Also, I'm curious if you realized your link to the gnews search was only for the last month. Had you intended to link to all dates instead?--Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Oh yeah my bad, fixed it.--Giants27 /C 20:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Wizardman 15:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

    Chelladurai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unsourced, and "known for its wealth and kindness" and a surname "very popular among Nadars"? Prod reverted without sourcing or fixing. -- Jeandré, 2009-04-19t12:39z 12:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Delete no sources found in a quick google search for Chelladurai name. Thanks, Genius101 13:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. --Ixfd64 (talk) 03:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

    Gola H. Sebenar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unsourced, prod removed without sourcing anything, fails wp:bio. -- Jeandré, 2009-04-19t11:52z 11:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Delete, not notable and unsourced article. I couldn't find anything on a Google search. peace ☮ 12:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    I found this, which is either a Knowledge (XXG) mirror, or it means that the article is a copyvio. Other than that, I can't find anything to prove his notability. So I say either Speedy or Delete, based on whether that's a copyvio or not. Thanks, Genius101 13:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


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    The result was redirect to Stir crazy. Cirt (talk) 05:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Stircrazy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable producer. Lacks any coverage of any sort. Ibaranoff24 (talk) 11:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was delete. Closed a bit early per WP:SNOW. –Juliancolton |  02:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    David Hurst (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This article was created earlier this month and tagged straight away for conflict of interest and notability, mainly because it appears to be a relative of David Hurst who is writing an article. Since then, the same author has added further text which not only does nothing to address the matter of notability but goes even further away from neutral point of view, the worst offender being the sentence "Nevertheless, it was the child who shyly said that the Emperor had no clothes who turned out to have had the better view of the matter." I would re-write the article, but having had a look through Ghits, Gnews and Gbooks, I can't find anything to support notability - just purchase sites, wiki mirrors, one review on a possible self-published site, and a few trivial mentions. I'm happy for someone to step in and salvage this, but I can't find any reason to do so myself. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 10:19, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Delete- subject may be notable but there is no evidence of it! If he is worthy of an encyclopedia article, the article needs to be re-written with a NPOV anyway. HJ Mitchell (talk) 10:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  15:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    UK Kid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    The article shows no sign of notability. I've found no reliable sources to establish this notability yet. Just being trained by Shawn Michaels does not show notability to me.--WillC 09:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was Speedy Keep Good faith but mistaken nom. Jclemens (talk) 00:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

    Okopipi (software tool) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Notabiiity under question - 3rd AFD. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was SNOW delete Jclemens (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

    DJ Manic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This unsigned 15 year old DJ does not appear to meet any of the WP:MUSIC notability criteria. The article states that they are unsigned and their claim to fame is through social networking sites. No third-party reliable sources are provided and a general Google search () doesn't return anything other than the artist's own various websites while a search of Google Australia (the DJ's home country) () returns nothing. Note that the blue-linked items in the discography are to generic words, and not this DJ's releases. Nick-D (talk) 07:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was Delete. Icestorm815 • Talk 04:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    The Joshua Tree (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable tribute band. See WP:MUSIC. Coverage is trivial and for some reason is mostly limited to Alaskan sources. Morbidthoughts (talk) 06:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 03:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Queens Station (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    It was a proposed LRT station, but is currently not planned to be built. Canuck85 (talk) 09:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was merge to Rotherham United F.C.. MBisanz 00:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Miller Bear (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    No claim to significance or notability. I nominated this for speedy, which was declined under the rationale that speedy is for people, not bears. In the future, let's bend the rules to include our ursine friends. JNW (talk) 04:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Comment One has trouble seeing why mascots are significant enough, except for a handful of examples that have earned media coverage over many years, to merit mention at all, let alone meet encyclopedic standards for significance. This particular one is thus far unreferenced, and turns up no Google hits--what's to merge? Agreed that this was likely done as a lark. JNW (talk) 15:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    The result of this Google search reveals very little, but does not dampen one's initial interpretation, that the bear is a dressed-up human. JNW (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. SNOW close Tone 13:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Kai Frobel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
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    The result was Delete per WP:SNOW. Nick-D (talk) 08:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    The Russian Sailors (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This alleged basketball team appears to be a hoax. Grahame (talk) 04:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was Speedy delete as vandalism. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Viking blitz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Not really encyclopedic. Barry m (talk) 04:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


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    The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Heidelberg Middle School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Orphaned article, nothing notable about the school, very little info given in the article; WP:IINFO. The super red one (talk) 04:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    The page has the wrong tag. Ikip (talk) 06:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    List of fonts in Mac OS X (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Unencyclopedic and of questionable notability; WP:IINFO. Cybercobra. (talk) 03:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Tupelo Honey Cafe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Declining db-spam deletion; taking to AfD. The taggers split on this one, and I'd like to get feedback on notability requirements for restaurants. A surprising number of ghits, but do restaurant reviews = notability? - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 03:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Well, the quality of the hits and the significance of the mention matter, of course. This place has gotten a lot of coverage because it "stands" for something, some Asheville thing, one of those things easier to point to in a newspaper than to write up. BTW, Dan, if you are a foodie, I got some freshly made frozen peach yogurt for you. Linguist, that's a disgusting thought: no ice cream for you. Drmies (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep, probably - Here are some reliable sources that mention the restaurant. , , , , , In my opinion, any given one of them isn't what I would call significant coverage, but I'd say they probably add up to notability, along with being mentioned on a TV show. "Tu pelo" means "your hair" in Spanish, by the way. Hope they don't have any in the food. :) — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  03:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep Very tasty article that passes WP:RS. Pastor Theo (talk) 11:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep Decent reviews of a restaurant act toward notability just as such do for a film or a book. By way of comparison, we grant notability to fast food establishments based upon the press they generate in their wide-spread marketing, though they rarely get great reviews for quality of product. If a smaller one-of establishment makes enough of an impression to be reviewed and rated, that speaks toward its notability, as in my opinion, places like that rarely get in-depth news coverage unless they are otherwise historical or the site of some tragedy. So for them, a good review by established and respected restaurant critics such as Frommers, picked up by the New York Times, definitely works to show note. Schmidt, 16:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep Granite thump (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep — It's a stub, but notability has been fairly-well established. I'm not sure how much more information really is needed on it. Without becoming a spam-laden article full of self-promotional material, I think that the basic facts have been presented. Include some snippets of useful information culled from the mentioned sources, and leave it a brief, but well-sourced article. At least until someone cares to invest a lot of effort into it. --Willscrlt (→“¡¿Talk?!”) 18:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was merge to Detroit Public Schools#Zoned PreK-8 schools. –Juliancolton |  02:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    This doesn't appear to be a notable school. A redirect to Detroit Public Schools should replace this article. I will be happy to retract this AFD if evidence of notability is found. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Comment - not only is redirecting not nonsensical but it is essential. There is a small amount of sourced content that can be merged so the redirect is needed; not as a search term but for GFDL reasons. I have now carried out the merge. TerriersFan (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was redirect to Honda Indy Toronto#History. –Juliancolton |  02:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Gary Avrin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    WP:ONEEVENT. Shankopotamus (talk) 02:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was Not-delete. Discussions on whether or not to merge the article can be taken up on its talk page. Stifle (talk) 08:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

    Hamastan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
    "Hamastan" is a WP:NEOLOGISM absent from all reliable dictionaries and encyclopedias. The term has been used, always incidentally and in passing, by many commentators and in a large number of media reports. However, I am unaware of a single reliable source that is actually about the word "hamastan," as opposed to simply using or mentioning it. Certainly, no such source has ever been mentioned in the article. In fact, the article has systematically over-stated the influence and relevance of the term "hamastan." For instance, a single off-hand comment by a senior Hamas politician has become the sole basis of a section called "Hamas response," and the crucial phrase, "Since 2007, the term has been used to refer to its 2007 victory in Gaza over Fatah in the inter-Palestinian conflict," is sourced to a brief AP wire story recounting comments by an Israeli politician who incidentally used the term "Hamastan." The article definitively fails Knowledge (XXG)'s basic notability standard, in that it cites no sources about the term "Hamastan." WP:NEOLOGISM, which explicates this basic standard, could have been written with "Hamastan" specifically in mind:

    Created terms that add common prefixes or suffixes (such as non– or –ism) to existing words can add clarity, and this may be acceptable in some cases. If not done carefully, however, this practice can result in new terms that are misleading, ambiguous, offensive, or that lend undue weight to a particular point of view. (For instance, adding –ism to a word can sometimes be offensive, implying a belief system or political movement. It may also lead readers to believe there is an established school of thought on a topic where there is not.) Where editors disagree about the use of these neologisms it is best to err on the side of not using them.

    Articles on neologisms frequently attempt to track the emergence and use of the term as observed in communities of interest or on the internet—without attributing these claims to reliable secondary sources. If the article is not verifiable (see Reliable sources for neologisms, below) then it constitutes analysis, synthesis and original research and consequently cannot be accepted by Knowledge (XXG). This is true even though there may be many examples of the term in use.

    The salvageable content of this article (ie, the material that does not misrepresent its sources in order to puff up the term "Hamastan") should be merged to Hamas, Governance of the Gaza Strip, and whichever other articles could stand it. The article itself should be deleted as a pointless violation of numerous WP policies. <eleland/talkedits> 01:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • AGREE/CONCUR/SUPPORT If it was in a dictionary, then I would have to (grudgingly) accept it; but it isn't, so I don't.
      --NBahn (talk) 02:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Heyo Nathan,
        There's actually a good number of articles for terms that don't appear in dictionaries (Sample: ) and this is a very new term as well. I think you need to review the policies as there's no mention that a term must be in dictionaries before its allowed to write an article about it. I've just come to the belief that the article should probably stay, give my reasoning (a bit lower) a look.
        Warm regards, Jaakobou 12:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Condense and merge to Hamas. I couldn't find any sources with in-depth coverage talking about the term "Hamastan" as opposed to using the term, although I didn't look through all 2300+ Gnews hits. If someone can come up with significant coverage of the term itself, I'll change to a keep. But for now, this needs to be condensed to a paragraph and merged. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  03:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Comment - Another target for merger might be Palestinian territories. Apparently, "Hamastan" is an alternative, pejorative term used by Israeli and other media to refer to the Palestinian territories (Gaza strip and West bank) (See page 7 of this). Just because there are two or more commonly used names for the same geographical location doesn't mean we should have more than one article. Knowledge (XXG) covers topics and mentions all alternative names in one article. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  04:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. -- — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  04:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. -- — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  04:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: Hamastan is mostly used with the intention of having a useful shorthand term for "Hamas controlled Islamic state in Gaza". It's common usage (and subsequent notability) is based on just that as the ease of use has found its way to all types of sources. The term has numerous favorable or benign context appearances and it has become quite common with it's original "place of" (-stan) context.
      Sample: - Hamas's takeover of Gaza, which yesterday seemed closer than ever, is destined to split the territories into two entities that are politically and even culturally separate: Hamastan (the Gaza Strip) and Fatahstan (the West Bank).
      -- Jaakobou 09:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


    • KEEP -- This is a handy term for referring to a current (partially-realized) or possible future Palestinian Islamic state which has been use for about four years now, and has appeared in a number of articles in "mainstream" media. Note that this word is not a synonym for Gaza (as both some who want to delete the article and some who want to keep it appear to believe); it was coined in response to the results of the Palestinian_municipal_elections,_2005 and then Palestinian legislative election, 2006, when Gaza and the West bank were not divided as they are now, and it can be used to refer to various scenarios of a possible future Palestinian Islamic state (not necessarily confined to Gaza). AnonMoos (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Comment - AnonMoos is correct that the term, which applies to any territory controlled by Hamas or a Hamas equivalent (Islamist organization), could indeed refer to more than just the Gaza strip and many concerns have been raised that Hamas would try a military coup over the West Bank as well as it did in Gaza. Jaakobou 15:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
        • Both of you have said that the term has appeared in a number of articles. Given that I have already stated this fact, and that the quoted policies clearly state that just having appeared in a number of sources is not sufficient for an article, why do you keep bringing up this point? How about instead you cite even one source that actually covers the term nontrivially, rather than just using or mentioning it? <eleland/talkedits> 16:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment My first thought is that it refers to a country which is all about Ham. Edison (talk) 21:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Merge as per nomination, merge to Hamas. pedrito - talk - 21.04.2009 09:17
    • Comment - shouldn't it be Occupied Hamastan ?...just kidding. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep - I wasn't sure so I took some time and thought it over and came to the following conclusion: besides how common the term has become in mainstream media, there is no way that it could be explained, along with the two/three possible uses (pejorative and standard), within the context of the Hamas article without becoming undue. I can also see it mentioned on numerous articles that relate to the Gaza strip as it's become the most common terminology for the "Hamas Islamist state in Gaza". Jaakobou 12:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Merge with Hamas. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:03, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

    Condense and Merge per LinguistatLarge, splitting material between Hamas, Gaza Strip and/or Palestinian Authority where appropriate. Hamastan is just a word with pejorative connotations for the Gaza Strip under Hamas control. Tiamut 18:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Keep or (in the least) Merge Topic has become mainstream and recognized by a high-level Hamas official and major media. I certainly would not endorse a delete with that kind of support, but a merge seems like a "reasonable", though unnecessary compromise. However, I cannot picture implementing a merge into Hamas without consequently removing much of the source material other than the quote(s) and basic background. I can't say I'm comfortable with that. Wikifan12345 (talk) 08:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep—notable neologism. Neologisms can have articles. The nominator's argument doesn't stand because Hamastan is well-sourced and used by many notable figures. It is not something that we invented on Knowledge (XXG), or something that was used by a fringe blogger. —Ynhockey 21:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Delete - examples of people using the word isnt enough to have an article on the word, its enough to use it in other articles. Nableezy (talk) 21:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Move to Wiktionary. As a somewhat notable neologism, it would be useful to have a definition, but that belongs in a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. — BQZip01 —  03:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep. The multiple sources discussing the term indicates that the term is notable. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep -- One will find another 702,000 hits if one spells it "Hamas-stan" instead. Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:47, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. MBisanz 00:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Waterloo Central Railway (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Only non-trivial source I found is a brief snippet in a 2007 Globe and Mail. Doesn't confer enough notability to overcome the high COI (author is WCR09 (talk · contribs)). Blueboy96 01:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Why? What a nice article. The Wurdalak (talk) 02:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was Speedy delete by Ged UK, non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 17:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Firestar Entertainment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Nothing to support notability. JNW (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Delete see WP:ADVERTISING. It is quite noticably written by an employee, or even the employer. ] (talk) 08:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was keep. This article was nominated for deletion in good faith. However, besides a non applicable argument for deletion under CSD A7, nobody besides the nominator is arguing for deletion (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Blockland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Looking at the references, I see two youtube videos, the game developers web site, two decent pages, and a thread on the Blockland Forum. Doesn't look notable to me. gordonrox24 (talk) 01:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    I find that not true, as it is an online game, and you would expect to be able to find lots of info via google for a notable online topic.--gordonrox24 (talk) 22:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
    Also, a search on Google news gives us results on unrelated topics named Blockland.--gordonrox24 (talk) 22:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
    Simply looking for a Google search result number isn't a good way to decide if something is notable. Try searching Google News Archives instead, and look at the articles given. I'm not saying it is 100%-no-doubt-about-it notable, but simply given "622,000 Ghits" (which is actually a lot) shouldn't be your only reason to delete. TheAE talk/sign 22:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC
    Google hits aren't my reason to delete and I only took a look at the hits when you started talking about google. My reason to delete is lack of references and questionable notability.--gordonrox24 (talk) 22:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
    Okay then, I agree. I still see a weak keep here, though. TheAE talk/sign 22:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


    Comment: Since I opened this AFD, The article has been expanded greatly, but in that expansion no new references have been added. All information without source or reference can and will be challenged and or removed.--gordonrox24 (talk) 13:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

    This sentiment I agree with. Fixing up an article to withstand an AFD is great. However, adding a bunch of unsourced material is not what that means. ~a (user • talk • contribs) 15:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
    I am all for fixing articles, but if references cannot be found, it is a subtle hint that the topic is not notable.--gordonrox24 (talk) 17:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

    Comment: An A7 CSD tag was placed on the article by User:Stifle. User:Ged UK declined saying that the article is about software. When asked, he said people would probably disagree with his decision, but he is sticking to it. The question is are we dealing with blockland as a piece of software, or as a website. Web sites are eligible for A7, but Software is not.--gordonrox24 (talk) 22:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

    "Blockland is a non-competitive multiplayer computer game built on the Torque Game Engine" Defiantly a piece of software. -- Tommeh6 (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)— Tommeh6 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    Then the article proceeds to talk about the forums on the website. I don't know. I think it is a piece of software.--gordonrox24 (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
    Blockland is a piece of software. Were not talking about an article for Blockland.us. --Tommeh6 (talk) 22:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. --Ixfd64 (talk) 03:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

    Firestar Records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Nothing to support significance or notability. JNW (talk) 00:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


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    The result was delete. MBisanz 00:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    List of clubs in Bahrain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    The list is perfect for a Bahrain telephone directory, but its presence here is pure WP:LISTCRUFT. Pastor Theo (talk) 00:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Thanks a lot for your comment. I am not the first one to create such groups, and there is no reason that this article should be deleted. There are articles like this for List of clubs in Egypt and List of clubs in India. If the latter two are perfectly fine with Knowledge (XXG) policy, then this article should have no problem. You claim that this is suitable for telephone directories, but there are many list of these kinds in wikipedia such as list of airlines, shopping malls and movie theaters. Canadian (talk) 01:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    See WP:WAX. Just because other, similar articles exist, does not mean that this one cannot be deleted. The deletion of this article might even set a new precedent for deleting similar articles via AfD. --Patar knight - /contributions 01:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Indeed. I have nominated List of clubs in Egypt for deletion; the List of clubs in India is a redirect to List of football clubs in India--also on shaky ground, perhaps. Drmies (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    I am very sorry if the nomination of this article created ill will; that was clearly not my intention. However, I need to point out that your argument for its inclusion runs afoul of WP:OTHERSTUFF. Pastor Theo (talk) 01:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Actually the clubs named are not in a directory fashion at all. The clubs named are some of the most important clubs in Bahrain. Sorry, if you are not well acquainted with Bahrain, but the country of 650, 000 has well over 500 clubs, but these clubs are the ones that have the most clout and are commonly seen in newspapers. Take these examples, out of the aforementioned population of 650, 000 there are 100, 000 Indians, and another 100, 000 people from Bangladesh and Pakistan. There are some 50, 0000 Westerners. The clubs chosen are balanced and play a pivotal role in the social affairs of Bahrain. Case in the point that I have not written night clubs or bars. These organizations stated play a very important role in the everyday life of these expat communities. Hope this makes you change your mind. The article, albeit being short being labeled as with deletion is wholly a misunderstanding on the basis of the wikipedia community to know about other counties. Based on this, it would be most proper to remove the "delete tag." Canadian (talk) 01:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    The template announcing this AfD will be removed at the conclusion of the discussion. And I would ask that you please do not remove it while the AfD is currently underway; I already reverted an attempt to remove the template. Pastor Theo (talk) 02:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    As I have state above. This list does not blatantly name clubs that sprung up, but discriminates for the clubs in Bahrain that have contributed the most socially and are attended by a wide populace. Canadian (talk) 02:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Knowledge (XXG) operates on consensus, if everyone else who views this AfD !votes to keep it, then the consensus is keep, and it will be kept. However, in its current state, it probably won't survive this AfD. So instead of bickering over Knowledge (XXG)'s systematic bias, go forth and find some reliable sources which clearly show why the clubs are notable in the context of Bahrain. --Patar knight - /contributions 13:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Delete--I don't see how this is notable, anything else than a directory. This explanation here actually makes it worse, since it begs the question of verifiability. The Lions Club has contributed to the social life in Manama (BTW, you might want to add that those are cities)--oh? how do you prove that? Drmies (talk) 02:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Comment I guess I added why these clubs are important in playing a role that helps expats live in a foreign country. So I guess, the entry has been somewhat fixed. Canadian (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Delete Whilst a certain degree of notability is asserted, it is totally unverified, and potentially unverifiable. Fails even as a directory, as the article consist of nothing more than a list of redlinked clubs, with no indication of why any of them have any notability. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    Comment Explanations have been added to why a certain club in important.Canadian (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. MBisanz 00:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

    Clark Aldrich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Spamy article for an author with questionable notability. BJ 19:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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    • Keep He has two books in worldCat , and the principle one just mentioned has over 900 library holdings in worldCat. The other has over 200, With the citations, that's enough to show notability as an author. DGG (talk) 02:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was redirect to The Apprentice (U.S. season 5). Tone 18:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Lenny Veltman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable contestant in The Apprentice 5 and he didn't won the show. Fails person has only one event. ApprenticeFan 16:43, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was redirect to The Apprentice (U.S. season 5). Tone 18:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    Brent Buckman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable finalist in The Apprentice 5 that he did not won the competition. He possibly in ONEEVENT. ApprenticeFan 05:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was Delete Unsourced bio. None of the sources in the article tie this person to the specific activities and appearances alleged. This is G10 material, as there's nothing "possibly negative" about alleging porn appearances when the subject has filed an OTRS ticket to request deletion. Jclemens (talk) 00:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

    Nathalie Boët (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Subject requests deletion (otrs:2009032810011861).

    Personal thoughts: Unsouced possibly negative BLP ("pornographic model") with no real claim to notability. BJ 08:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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    • Delete. The French version (here) cites a source by ISBN number, which I could not actually read, but is a book by her, not a book about her. The German version (here) is effectively unsourced (which isn't unusual on the German wikipedia, by the way; they have a very different attitude to BLP than we do). The ISBN numbers in the German version are also of books by her, not books about her.

      I think there are insufficient reliable sources about her to justify keeping this article.—S Marshall /Cont 00:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Weak keep modest notability per movies, books. JJL (talk) 00:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Keep I've found two articles about her and a book that discusses her: . That;'s enough to meet WP:BIO. DGG (talk) 00:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Delete Weak claim of notability, and unsourced, fails WP:BLP and WP:PORNBIO. --J 03:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  03:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

    All American Guys (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    Does not appear to meet WP:WEB. Makes several wild claims that are not backed up by sources. Enigma 08:45, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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    The result was keep. MBisanz 10:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

    Landscape heraldry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    This article fails the WP:NOTABILITY guideline. There is almost no literature on this relatively obscure phrase. Within the broader spectrum of heraldry, landscape heraldry is essentially a 19th century fad that can be summed up in about one paragraph, as evidenced by this page, which consists of a few sentences and a massive picture gallery that includes every example of landscape heraldry that could be found on WM Commons. This article does not represent a potential that is helpful to Knowledge (XXG) readers or the Heraldry Project, due to its lack of notability. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 12:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

    • Keep The term 'landscape heraldry' has been used in at least one book on heraldry, (though it's only been given a passing mention). Though I'm sorely tempted to !vote for a delete, I see multiple references in Google of this term leading me to believe that this is indeed a notable form of heraldry. (NOTE: Maybe the reason why this term isn't very popular is because it's a technical term(?) ) Antivenin 13:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Merge & Redir to Heraldry - not notable in its own right. It seems to be a simple dicdef according to this site. Note also CopyVio. Exit2DOS2000 16:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
    It's not a copyright violation. If you read that site carefully, it says: The source of this article is Knowledge (XXG), the 💕. The text of this article is licensed under the GFDL. The topic seems notable enough to have been mentioned in numerous sites. Antivenin 16:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
    ok my whoops on the copyvio ... but its still seems a dicdef to me. Exit2DOS2000 18:00, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
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    • Keep The material in that book for GBooks (A Complete Guide to Heraldry By Arthur Charles Fox-Davies, Graham Johnston) is a discussion,not just a mention. Based on it, the article could be easily expanded. DGG (talk) 00:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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    The result was merge to Gilgit#Education. MBisanz 10:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

    KG School,Hospital Road (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

    I cannot find any reliable, third party sources documenting this school; thus, fails our criteria for verifiability and notability. tempodivalse  15:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

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    • Merge Normally we would keep, but in this case I think it better to make an exception, and merge the material into the article on the city--an article which could use considerable improvement with respect to the recent history after 1950. i The source saying it was just a middle school was back in 1973, so it isn't contradictory to it being a high school, but there does not seem to be any available evidence of that. However, it is proof that the school did in fact exist. I carefully checked to see if I could find something Terriers Fan had missed, , but I did not get much further. When someone does, the article can be split. The fact than we can have a separate article does not mean we must have a separate article, or even that we should. DGG (talk) 02:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Redirect to the school district or town article. Only its existence can be verified, so only it's existence should be covered, which doesn't require a separate article. - Mgm| 11:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
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