Knowledge (XXG)

:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 September 22 - Knowledge (XXG)

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 :The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Bizarre adventure. The AfD is being closed many years later, because it was never properly closed back then, because it was never visible, because it was never transcluded on any of the daily logpages. Technically, it has still been open this whole time.

Nobody else could ever be admitted here, because this door was made only for you. I am now going to shut it. jp×g 22:52, 17 October 2022 (UTC)(non-admin closure)

Master Joe y O.G. Black (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

O.G. Black y Master Joe needs to be moved to Master Joe y O.G. Black. Cannot perform the move because the new article name already exists. --Pasajero 12:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was Delete - The deletes have the upper hand, and the issues pertaining to WP:NOT an indiscrimant collection of information and the lack of sources push this over the line.Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Burger King menu items (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

rather uncyclopedic, WP:NOT a resterant menu or a indiscriminate collection of information, Delete-- Jaranda 02:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Only the notable ones. :) --Czj 22:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:BEANS, <cough><cough> Bwithh 03:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep per McDonald's menu items. While "I like it" is not valid per WP:ILIKEIT, "indiscriminate" WP:NOT is not valid either. It doesn't match any of the reasons given under WP:NOT. "Delete unless we want to add menus for all restaurants around the world" isn't valid anymore than adding one biography means we have to add everyone on Earth. While a list of menu items isn't of value, a list with commentary and with calories would be valuable, since they aren't provided by Burger King in an easy to use format. The list also makes it easy to compare Burger King vs. McDonalds menu items. Its more than a menu when it contains commentary. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 03:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Fails WP:V and I don't see any sources, just a pile of external links. The topic is not encyclopedic and fails WP:NOT (for that matter so does the McDonald's one). And for God's sake, please stop with the "Well Article X is here, so Article Y should stay". It's not a keep argument. --Elaragirl 04:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep as there is a page for McDonald's menu items, and the article is more than a run-down of the Burger King menu. It also includes the history of different items, as well as discontinued and international variations. --Mrath 04:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to re-AFD the McDonald's page as for the same reason on this and invalid reasoning on the AFD, just because McDonald's page exist doesn't mean this page has to exist as well. That is clearly not a valid reason for keeping. Jaranda 04:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. It's well enough written, but there's still no real reason for the article. Definitely a violation of WP:V.--Wizardman 04:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete this ad. Doczilla 07:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete; all menu items are listed more concisely on the {{Burger King}} template. Krimpet 07:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Restaurant menus vary from place to place, and from country to country for that matter. The "staples" in the menu (Whopper etc.) can get a mention in the main Burger King article, but trying to compile a full list of items is untenable. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per Sjakkalle, who is completely correct in saying that such a list is either untenable (due to variation) or pointless as the "star items" should be on the main page anyway. It is true that perhaps this information could in and of itself useful and should be kept somewhere. Just very definitely not here. Marm 09:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Burger King, keeping article history. --Czj 09:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Keep - NPOV, verifiable history of a very notable restaurant's menu. It's not an ad as some have suggested. The info is not all available centrally on the restaurant's site -- what about discontinued items? Perhaps it needs clean-up, but it should be kept. --Czj 22:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Knowledge (XXG) is not a menu. MER-C 10:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, unencyclopedic list of food. WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. As what Sjakkalle said, BK's menu items varies in every country, so this page is not at all useful. Maybe just list a number of their well known items on the main article itself. Terence Ong 10:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Neither Burger King or McDonalds are, by any stretch of the immagination, restaurants! Markb 11:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. And get rid of this article, as well. I don't see why a list of products sold at a retail outlet deserve their own entry on Knowledge (XXG), or are we going to have an entry listing all the items that Wal Mart sell? Markb 11:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Looking at the article, it looks like just about every non-generic (i.e. trademarked) item sold by Burger King has an article anyway, and the ones I looked at listed versions and regional variations for those products. This article provides an OK structural context and is NPOV, hence the weak keep. Also as usual, I disagree with the "slippery slope" arguments that "every restaurant in the world will have to have their menu on Knowledge (XXG)" if this is kept. Those pointing to WP:ILIKEIT to "invalidate" the arguments of others are, I hope, aware that WP:IDONTLIKEIT is also a shortcut to that page. --Canley 13:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep on the grounds that it appears there is a consensus to keep the McDonald's menu article, and therefore in order to maintain WP:NPOV we can't discriminate. And yes, I do know that this could result in articles being created for Dairy Queen, Wendy's, Harvey's, White Castle, etc etc but if a precedent is going to be set by keeping the McDonald's article, I can't in good conscience vote to delete an article about a competing company. (For the record I'm abstaining from voting on the McDonald's article because at this point a delete/keep vote will make little difference). 23skidoo 13:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and delete the McDonald's one too. Jefferson Anderson 16:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • As-well as the article being irrelevant, you can tell just by the title that it doesn't belong on wikipedia.Tellyaddict 16:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to Burger King if there's anything salvagable. Also, please avoid WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS arguments. -Ryanbomber 16:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, this is a logical subarticle of Burger King, which as a major international brand (even if not at the level of McDonald's) receives media interest in its menu changes. The information is not indiscriminate (though much of the other brands section could be trimmed) and WP:V/WP:OR issues may be dealt with through cleanup or dispute resolution. --Dhartung | Talk 18:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per my comments at Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/McDonald's menu items (2nd nomination). --- RockMFR 20:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I am the creator and primary editor of this article. (Jerem43)

The are several reasons I created the article:

  1. To help show how BK adapts it product lines for the local taste across the globe. Being a large multinational corporation, Burger King has chosen to adapt its product lines to the markets they are operating in. The Burger King menu items article is in fact showing a facet of the corporate business strategy BK has chosen to employ as it expands globally.
  2. There were numerous commentaries in the Burger King Talk section about article being US-centric, specifically the Products and Advertising sections. Because of the large number of local menus and advertising programs BK has around the globe, to add all of the information from all global menus and advertising would make the primary article too large and unwieldy. With this in mind, I created the two secondary articles Burger King menu items and Burger King advertising to more accurately and thoroughly cover the information.
  3. The main Burger King article was over the 50 KB range, because people had added information to the Products and Advertising sections of the article n an attempt to address point 2.
  4. After seeing the McDonald's, Ford, Unilever and other articles, there seemed to be a precedence of showing products of these corporations. In each of these articles there there is a master list or table of contents listing the products the companies sell or manufacture. Furthermore that list or TOC have links to secondary articles that give more detail on the products. While the Burger King menu items is a separate article from the main Burger King article, it is providing the same function of the lists that are seen in those other articles. Please note that the there is a request to separate the Ford article into a main corporate article and a separate product article, this would follow the same structural pattern that I used in creating this article.
  5. In listing the menu items, I was attempting show how BK uses corporate cross licensing to help grow market share. Specifically, in the Beverages section you will see that BK sells specific products of other companies (Coca-Cola Corporation, Cadbury-Schweppes, Nestlé and Hershey's) to help drive customer sales. It has been shown that people exhibit brand loyalty, and this is one way BK exploits that brand loyalty in boosting its market share.
  6. In listing the menu items, I attempted show how BK targets specific demographic markets. If you read the article, you will see that several, but not all, have the demographic target that BK is attempting to reach with that product. (I had been cleaning up other BK related articles and was going to finish the tagging demographic markets of the products, but had not gotten back to the article.)
  7. Burger King is not in all markets: China, Russia and many other nations do not have Burger King restaurants. The Burger King menu items article could provide people of these regions an idea of what BK sells. This adheres to the mission of Knowledge (XXG) in providing an unbiased informational source. If people of those markets went to BK's corporate web site for that data, they would not be getting unbiased information.

Based on these facts, the 'Burger King menu items article is not trivia or just a list of menu items, but instead it helps to show some of the corporate strategies (e.g. demographic targeting, co-branding and local market awareness) BK employs in competing in the global market.

In addition, I am sure that if you research the Knowledge (XXG) database you will find similar precedence of having a separate article relating to products sold by a corporation.

Jerem43 18:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a major difference between a list of products from something like Coca-Cola or Ford from this, the main thing is that it's a store, that the menu here can change all the time and it's different for all parts of the world, unlike ford kraft or coca-cola. You are basiclly saying that you are endorsing articles of a listing of every product for every major brand like Wal-Mart, which wikipedia is WP:NOT for, there is a limit Jaranda 21:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Your argument is flawed.
  1. Wal*Mart is a retail chain, not a manufacturer. Burger King is a manufacturer, specifically of a food product that is designed for immediate consumption. You do not think of it as a manufacturer, but it is. A store is a retail establishment that usually sells pre-manufactured products, while a manufacturer takes raw or semi finished materials and constructs a product to sell. The product maybe sold at a retail establishment, on on-site or through private vendors. In addition, a restaurant, while not only manufacturing the product (food), it provides a place to consume the product (food), but does not have to.
  2. The menu does not change on a consistent basis, in fact is fairly stable. BK offers special products on occasion (e.g. special Whopper varieties) as does Coca-Cola (e.g. Special flavors of Sprite) and Ford (e.g. Eddie Bauer Explorer). Like Ford, it removes non-selling (Ford Excursion, CCC's Tab product) products from its lines when necessary.
  3. Knowledge (XXG) provides an informational source of products manufactured by Hershey's, Nestle and others. They are manufactures of food products designed for resale, while restaurants such as BK or McDs are are manufactures of food product designed for immediate consumption; just because the food is consumed in different venues does not matter, both groups should be treated equally.
Jerem43 22:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
It's still a resterant Jaranda 22:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is. The point is that a restaurant is specialized form of manufacturing with multiple manufacturing locations and whose product is designed for immediate consumption by its customers. Just because it is a restaurant does not mean that it should be treated any differently than the other manufacturing companies listed in Knowledge (XXG). The article is not just a list of products, but a slice of the way BK targets its consumer base: it has data on the demographics the products target, reasons why it chooses to remove products from its menu and what BK does to its menu to compete in "foreign" markets. I fully intend to expand the article further to explain the process BK bring its products to market (I worked in the hospitality industry for 25 years and have experience with market development of products), which will help make the article truly encyclopedic. Please reconsider your request for deletion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerem43 (talk • contribs) 06:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
Ah, so you are arguing that Burger King outlets are not the same as other stores, they are actually (manu)factories? I would be interested in some evidence to back this claim up, especially considering that, where applicable, local licensing authorities class them as retail outlets *not* factories, and Burger King agrees. In the UK, for example, Burger King would not be allowed to open one of their factories in an area designated for retail. I suspect the same holds true elsewhere. Could anyone give me an example in the US, say, where a shopping mall contains a mixture retail outlets, Burger Kings and a steel mill? Markb 08:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Your are twisting my argument- At no time did I use the term factory. You are seeking to discredit my argument with data that seem to be applicable but are really not. You do not have to have a giant mill or factory to manufacture a product. Examples would the people who make hand crafted jewelery, weavers who make there own cloth for sale, tailors who manufacture custom clothing, potters who make hand thrown stoneware- all of these people are manufacturing products, usually in a small location that also usually serves as their retail outlet. Yes BK is a retail outlet- it serves food products that are manufactured on site, as do brewpubs, bakery cafes, chocolate stores, small coffee roasting houses etc. Look at the definition of manufacturer from Webster's:
man·u·fac·tur·er: one that manufactures; especially : an employer of workers in manufacturing
Pronunciation: -'fak-ch&r-&r, -'fak-shr&r
Function: noun
What is manufacturing? Webster's defines it as such:
man·u·fac·ture
Pronunciation: "man-y&-'fak-ch&r, "ma-n&-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Medieval Latin manufactura, from Latin manu factus, literally, made by hand
1 : something made from raw materials by hand or by machinery
2 a : the process of making wares by hand or by machinery especially when carried on systematically with division of labor
2 b : a productive industry using mechanical power and machinery
3 : the act or process of producing something
Notice that it does not say giant factory or mill. Based on the definition, all restaurants are manufactures; just as Coca-Cola, Nestle, Ford, Sony, Dow etc are. Just as these companies' products are important and noteworthy, restaurant menus from these fast food restaurants are too- they affect major societal issues like health (Mr. Spurlock's film showed this), the economy (several million burgers are sold each day generating tens of millions of dollars in revenue) and business practices (these companies spend millions on product development, and the failure of these items can be detrimental to the company). The menu is an integral part of the business operations of these companies and to delete them would be removing an important piece of the main article. I have stated my opinion as why Jarada's argument for deletion is flawed and that the article should be kept. I believe that it meets accepted Knowledge (XXG) standards for articles.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jerem43 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Please see WP:ILIKEIT Jaranda

22:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:ILIKEIT, if you actually read it, says that liking the subject of the article is not a recommended argument to keep. Feel free to point to it when someone says "Keep because I love Burger King food, it's delicious." There is no grounds to use WP:ILIKEIT to disparage or invalidate the arguments of others when they say the article is useful, interesting or well-written. --Canley 00:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, see WP:INTERESTING and WP:USEFUL which is about the same Jaranda 00:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Knowledge (XXG) is not an indiscriminate collection of information, nor is it a directory. Iced Kola 22:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • weak delete - as a snippet of modern life quite it's an interesting page, but its noteworthiness evades me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kripto (talk • contribs) 23:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
  • Delete. Knowledge (XXG) is not a directory, a menu, or an almanac, all of which this article really is. Belongs in the dustbin with the former article on the A&W menu. Agent 86 23:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep per Canley-DESU 03:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Hold the pickle, hold the lettuce, hold the onion...hold the burger. See WP:NOT. --Shirahadasha 05:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - per Dhartung Winterborn 06:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - for same reasons I gave on the McDonald's AfD. Wl219 08:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Burger King is absolutely notable, nobody would even consider deleting an article on them. What are they notable for? Serving food. Accordingly, having information on the food they supply is essential for Knowledge (XXG). I suppose this article could use some clean-up, maybe more of a historical perspective, but that's improvement, not deletion. I've said more on this subject in the McDonald's one, but basically, the nomination is flawed, and frankly, I do think any restaurant that gets an article on Knowledge (XXG) could quite possibly deserve an article on its menu. Disk space is cheap folks, and if we don't cover the food provided by these companies, well, I'd say that would cause problems. Providing more information is what Knowledge (XXG) is about, not less. Yeah, listing everything sold by Wal-Mart or Amazon might be a bit much, but listing all the software made and sold by Microsoft? Or Apple and their computer models? Or Ford and their cars? Or Coca-Cola and their beverages? Of course not. FrozenPurpleCube 18:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
comment. So the precedent is set. Every out-let's offerings are to be listed on Knowledge (XXG). What do I care? It's not my disk space that's going to be stuffed full with this. I made my annual contributions for a free encyclopaedia, now that it's become a cheap listing site I known not to bother again. Enjoy. Markb 20:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not feel you are correct in your understanding. Every outlet will not be included, only the menus of restaurants which are notable enough for inclusion. Thus mom and pop hamburger stand will not be covered, unless for some reason they, and their menu is notable. The same goes with every individual McDonald's or Burger King. Or even some sections of franchisees. I might understand your complaint if this was say a list of a restaurant chain's stores and their menus/addresses. But it's not. That would be a problem. But the overall pattern? Completely reasonable to cover. Also special events, say, if the McDonald's in some special location has some super-food item that gets heavy news coverage. Your arguments about size are also not recognizing something: Knowledge (XXG) is not not paper, which explains why it's perfectly feasible to include this information. It's really no different than having an article for each and every member of the US Congress, and every other legislative body in the world. That may not be information you care about, but to me, not recognizing its importance is hard to fathom. FrozenPurpleCube 22:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment I am getting so tired of this slippery slope fallacy being trotted out at every second AfD - that if we keep an article like this, then notability gets thrown out the window and every single restaurant in the world will be allowed to have their menus on Knowledge (XXG) (or should I say Menupedia!!!). That's just not the case: these articles are easily manageable in size and scope, and the community will quickly act against any non-notable backstreet bistro putting their menu on Knowledge (XXG). --Canley 22:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
...right, just like they said with Pokemon, Gundam, and all the rest, one article won't lead to others. Thank you for denying reality and proven history. --Elaragirl 23:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
To clarify, I'm not saying that one article won't lead to another of course. I'm saying I have faith in the Knowledge (XXG) community to judge notability in such cases where the strongest argument for deletion seems to be "it's cruft" (tantamount to "I'm not interested in it"). Obviously the concept of an article on every Pokemon really rubs some people up the wrong way, but if others want that information and are willing to maintain it, and there's considerable community support then what's the problem? I presuming you're not suggesting that Pokemon and Gundam aren't notable enough for an article. So in this case, McDonalds menu items should be OK because McDonalds is notable. Jimmy's Burger Bar menu items is not and would not survive an AfD discussion, it's that simple. --Canley 01:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
And to show that articles on various Pokemon and Gundams haven't destroyed Knowledge (XXG)....well, witness the fact that Knowledge (XXG) continues to exist and function. FrozenPurpleCube 02:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
So, what argument do you have for deletion? WP:NOT includes a lot of things, such as travel guides, memorials and instruction manuals. Or dictionaries or Soapboxes. This is not one of those. So, perhaps you could articulate your issue with this article? FrozenPurpleCube 02:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete as blatant advertising per WP:SPAM. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Pet Expo 2007 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article is an advertisment Sarah777 02:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 02:28, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Amy Hayes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, living person article. cohesion 23:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, I just wanted to draw this to broader attention. Maybe we can find sources and it should be kept, I'm not pushing either way really, I'm just not sure personally. :) - cohesion 02:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment If there's a real claim to fame, it's being the "first", "third", or "only working" professional female boxing announcer, depending on your source. The problem is, most are behind newspaper paywalls. --Dhartung | Talk 05:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, I challenge the entire unsourced article. WP:V: "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." -- Jeandré, 2007-09-23t19:09z
  • Comment All information on Amy Hayes is easily confirmed by searching for her on the net or by visiting amyhayes.com. Other reliable sources are MAXIM, Playboy , Cosmopolitan. Over the years there have been ample sources on her accomplishments. 4 seasons on Fox sports nets Sunday night fights series. Ring announcing on ESPN 2, Showtime, HBO Time warner etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.20.103.158 (talk • contribs) 2007-09-24t15:11:15z
    Read Knowledge (XXG)'s verifiability requirements at WP:V. -- Jeandré, 2007-09-24t21:30z
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Bartosz Brenes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable musician. • Lawrence Cohen 23:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 02:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Ahmad Mustafa Ibrahim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I'm not totally sure on this one, and was tempted to speedy delete request it. He's notable for his death and stopping a terrorist attack, but it still feels thin. I'd be happy to help build it out a bit if it's worth keeping but I suspect it is too borderline. Saying weak delete as nominator. • Lawrence Cohen 23:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete (suggested redirect seems unlikely search term). Espresso Addict 00:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Medical and healthcare educational software (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable, no evidence/assertation of notability. • Lawrence Cohen 22:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Keep. CitiCat 02:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Chevron Cars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Clearly an article made for a non-notable advertising campaign. A single link on the page doesn't start with "www.chevron", and it's from a 1997 edition of a San Francisco Business Journal. Pro crast in a tor 22:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment - if sources are found to prove notability, and the article becomes a little less soapy, I'll happily switch to keep. But until then, delete. --Bfigura 06:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 02:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Out of the Shadows (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Album track by a notable band on a notable album. Notability is not inherited, and I don't see anything here which demonstrates any independent notability. This is another one of the "A Matter of Life and Death" tracks which are being AfD'd separately so that they can be discussed on their merits. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was No consensusJForget 23:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Columbian Red (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

non notable marijuana strain. No assertion of notability, no sources. ⇒ SWATJester 15:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 22:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Graft to main stem, per Zahakiel --Victor falk 12:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - it really is a substub and needs more information, but like all taxa I think most, if not all, cultivars are notable. It just needs proper references. If anyone has a copy of this available, I'm sure it would be listed there. --Rkitko 13:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete (or merge) - given that this plant, as pretty much any cultivated plant, has hundreds to thousands of cultivars, most of which aren't particularly well-known or written about other than in brief entries in cultivar databases, it is much more practical to have a list of cannabis cultivars, a section in the main article, or even just a link to external sources. A few cultivars will warrant their own articles, but those should be written with sources and more than a single sentence, not mass-created in case they turn into real articles. (To give an idea of the scope, "There are more than 450,000 accessions (distinct varieties of plants) in the GRIN database." from - and I'm sure other cultivar databases, or cultivars not listed in such databases, have many more). Kingdon 14:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete (or merge) - as stated above, there is no info on the page and since this is the second time this has come up and there still is nothing to the page, delete would be best. If there really is some info - it should be included, with other cultivars, on one page. 19:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hardyplants (talk • contribs)
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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Barr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable per Knowledge (XXG):Notability (sports): A player who signs for a domestic team but has not played in any games is not deemed to have participated in a competition therefore they aren't notable. Was listed in January (result no consensus) but has still not played for any professional club. Should now be deleted - and re-created if his career does take off. Springnuts 22:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Surely with that reasoning you mean Delete? - PeeJay 11:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes I did. Revolutionaryluddite 00:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Keep. Eluchil404 23:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

FinnWars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

procedural nomination Nominated for PROD deletion despite two previous trips to AFD. Current PROD nominator states: "Unsourced, no apparent notability". User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 21:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Are Gifts from Employers Included in Taxable Income? (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Needs to be totally rewritten and renamed and/or merged, if it should even exist at all. Rocket000 21:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Actually, I believe I have misread what editor Mandsford wrote. Mandsford did not explicitly call for a merger into the Gift tax article, but rather merely suggested a merge of any "useful information." My apology to editor Mandsford. Famspear 02:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. DS 04:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This page appears to be a hoax. Googling Hamid Palo, Palo royal family, King Samdi Palo, and Palovinia turn up zero relevant results. Author is User:Lounge270. Sifaka 21:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Many of those in favour of deletion were saying that the article should be deleted because the existing content is terrible. However, that's not really a valid deletion reason, because many articles have risen from the ashes to become quite substantial and excellent FAs. A good example of this is MDAC. Other deletion reasons were that the songs aren't notable, or the band isn't notable. However, MarkBul pointed out a few external links that tend to indicate that the songs' notability. Therefore, my decision is to keep these articles. Ta bu shi da yu 00:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

A Carolina Jubilee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I am nominating this and the following articles because I feel that these album pages will never be anything more than track lists. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 21:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Also nominated for deletion for the same reasons outlined above...
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The result was keep. - Mailer Diablo 13:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Unicode characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Knowledge (XXG) is not an indiscriminate collection of information. A data dump with no context, that serves no purpose not better served by actually going to look at the unicode standard, is not useful. —Random832 21:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • delete, per what I just said above. —Random832 21:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Agree that it's presented in a better format elsewhere, and with a higher degree of reliability (who would possibly check these are accurate?). Since raw data like this is not encyclopedic, and not as useful as the official sources, it belongs here to the same extent a phone directory would. Thomjakobsen 22:00, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Unicode characters make me horny Xizer 22:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment, Keep Encyclopedia's exist to find knowledge right? So what if someone who did not know what this was, copy and pasted one of the symbols like "§" into the search, they would then learn all about unicode characters and how to write them. Or if someone wanted to edit wiki and needed to know how to write a "|" then this is where they would go. I don't know if this article belongs or not, but it seems like useful knowledge that would be a shame to delete. Viperix 22:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
    • If they copy-pasted § into the search, they would arrive at section sign, which is far more useful than this one in finding out what “§” is. And, this article says nothing about how to write a “|”, nor is it in a form that would make it reasonable to add that information. —Random832 23:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I think you missed my point, if they type any of these characters in it should bring them to this list. Because it helps them to learn "hey I can type all this stuff by typing in this combination of numbers" and the learning process continues from there. Also it does teach how to write the "|" "U+007C | Vertical Line" under Basic Latin. Viperix 06:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
        • if they type any of these characters in it should bring them to this list would be a BAD idea. We have actual articles about many characters. And, this list does not give any way of typing in the characters, it doesn't discuss HTML entities, alt codes, gnome "ctrl-shift" entry, etc, and none of that would be useful at all anyway for | because, well, it's _on the keyboard_.
          • Its on the keyboard? I don't think its on mine..... If it is let me know where, should save me time lol. Anyway I still think you miss my point, if it teaches how to use it or not is irrelevant really. This list passes WP:SAL, is useful for identifying these charictars, and to answer a question below, while researching things on WP, people don't necessarily want to go to a bunch of other cites, thats why they come here. And I don't think it exists elsewhere on the internet is a valid reason for deletion, If it was, WP would be nothing but links with no information at all. Viperix 22:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I am against list-cruft, but this is not cruft. Knowledge (XXG) is not paper, and this information is extremely useful and cannot be stored as a category. This is an internationally accepted standard(ISO) the has gained enormous acceptance, none of Knowledge (XXG)'s sister projects are better suited for it. This is a classic case of when a list is a good idea. The article can be made more encyclopedic by adding short one or two sentence explanations next to notable characters, and links to articles if they exist. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 23:09, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This is good reference information and while one might be able to find the same information in different places on the web, if one is looking for the info in wikipedia, it's nice to have it in a familiar format. Capmango 23:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Just a data dump of information already provided on other websites.-Wafulz 23:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep whether information is on other websites or not is irrelevant to whether it should be on wikipedia. We're a encyclopedia, not a mere guide to the web or a supplement to the web. And what makes something encyclopedic? that's just saying it shouldn't be in an encyclopedia. But why? All encyclopedias have always had tables of information of this sort. DGG (talk) 01:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This list cannot be said to have no context or to be indiscriminate. I find it useful and informative, and I'm sure others do as well. —Nricardo 01:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
    • It provides no context. It's a list of characters and names. It does not explain the history of the characters, etc, and it is not in a form in which it would be reasonable to add that information. —Random832 13:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This article lists the characters of mankind's most widely used character encoding system. This is just as important as English alphabet, in my opinion. Try to remember that Knowledge (XXG) is more than just a traditional encyclopedia. --- RockMFR 07:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Serves a useful purpose; no real need to delete. -Elmer Clark 09:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's just as important as the ASCII set. --Ancheta Wis 11:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep but split into separate articles - it's too big and will cause problems for many people that look at it. violet/riga (t) 13:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep — This is exactly the type of notable information that I'd use as a reference. — RJH (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Deleting it would only make Knowledge (XXG) less useful as an encyclopedia. Tim Q. Wells 18:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • delete- This is not the right forum for this, love page of some sort methinks.JJJ999 22:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - it's actually quite useful and is (mildly) encyclopedic. I've referred to it myself here in the past - Alison 01:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep somewhere. I'm not completely sure that Knowledge (XXG) is the best permanent place for this reference but I'm not sure that any of our sister projects are any better. I just found the page while attempting to research a question about domain-name spoofing (exploiting the similarity between the Cyrillic "Ye" and the Roman "E"). This page quickly answered my question when none of the other pages I'd found could.
    Note: If it is removed in favor of one of our sister projects, the page should be overwritten with a soft-redirect to that sister project-page. Deleting all traces of this page would be very unhelpful to our readers.
    Note 2: Splitting the page would, in my opinion, make the page much less helpful. Perhaps the goal could be met through reformatting on the same page? Rossami (talk) 20:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a reference content..wp->reference. fixed :).--Alnokta 21:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This reference material fulfills the criteria suggested by Knowledge (XXG):Lists in Knowledge (XXG) (note: this is an essay). Burntsauce 22:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - this looks like a nomination for the sake of nominating something. You do realise an encyclopedia is supposed to be a comprehensive reference work, right? - David Gerard 11:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete or soft redirect to Wikibooks which has a much more efficient reference. Cary Bass 13:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and perhaps fix up the formatting, but keep it because it is useful knowledge. We're not limited by shelf space here. The more info, the better. -Slipgrid 13:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Keep. Sourced award nominations meet WP:PORNBIO and invalidate only deletion reason given. Eluchil404 00:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Judy Star (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Does not satisfy WP:PORNBIO. SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Article was blanked by creator, deleted by JForget under db-blanked. Non-admin closure. -- Kesh 02:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Lauren Fischer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Claim to fame is that she was a background singer for Michael Jackson, and that she was murdered. No relevant results on: Google, GBooks, GScholar, GNews, GBlogs, IMBD, Amazon.com, amazon.co.uk for any of the names mentioned in the article (although events occurred pre-WWW). I suspect the material may be sourced from a true-crime type book - could not find the "paul-von" mentioned in the article anywhere; however the reference(?) at the top of the article may be this which I don't think would include biographical information. Kateshortforbob 21:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete Presumably she sang backing on the karaoke CD that goes with the book? From the lack of online references (even given the pre-WWW qualification), I don't see any evidence that her music career was independently notable, or that the murder was notable. Adding the two together doesn't justify an article, and I can't figure out the "paul-von" reference either. Thomjakobsen 21:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
If possible, I would like to withdraw this nomination, as I have been informed that the article was previously speedy deleted under WP:CSD#A7 and have now tagged it {{db-repost}}. Sorry for any inconvenience caused. --Kateshortforbob 22:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The WP:CSD#G4 criterion only applies to articles that were previously deleted via AfD, not speedy deletes. The new version does attempt to assert notability ("one of the most popular backing singers etc.") so it's ineligible for another A7. It'll qualify for G4s if the result here is a delete and it gets recreated. Thomjakobsen 23:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for clarifying. --Kateshortforbob 23:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was No consensus, defaults to Keep. NawlinWiki 04:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Penelope Trunk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete: Challenged PROD. Copying my reason for PROD below: Doesn't seem to satisfy any of the guidelines at Knowledge (XXG):Notability (people). No reliable published secondary sources about the subject that I can see (her web site has a list of press coverage, all of which seem to be articles about other things that quote her in passing), no independent biography, no awards or honors, no widespread name recognition, no widely recognized contributions or endorsements. Looking at the list of guidelines for creative professionals, she doesn't seem to satisfy any of those either. At best, she's a blogger and columnist with one recently published book; I don't think this cuts it.

The editor who removed the PROD commented that if there are reliable source references to her blog, she may be notable, but no one has yet come forward with any. SparsityProblem 21:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep. As Adrienne Roston, played professional beach volleyball; passes WP:BIO for athletes right there. As Adrienne Eisen/Greenheart, published award-winning fiction that has been professionally reviewed. As Adrienne Greenheart, pursued an accomplished but probably non-notable dot-com career. As Penelope Trunk, columnist for top outfits including TIME and Yahoo! Finance. It's a problem to search on all four names but there's enough there to pass WP:N. --Dhartung | Talk 06:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Delete per nom. Needs secondary sources, which may eventually appear. But right now there's just not enough for notability. Ward3001 03:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Weak Keep. Trunk wants to be the Ann Coulter of career advice by writing columns filled with resoundingly stupid career advice. She has advised women to show more skin at work, take off from work when one feels like it and don't tell your superior, date one's coworkers, invite your boss to your myspace page, etc. One article about this can be found here. I'm not sure whether she honestly believes her own advice, or whether she just writes the things she writes to get attention. Honestly, I don't think she would be notable, except for the fact that Yahoo! has made her their career advice columnist, and that she dishes out advice that will often result in career suicide, which garners her a lot of attention. Her Yahoo! gig passes the threshold for notability, in my opinion, albeit just barely. 64.190.140.138 15:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was "invite your CEO to facebook", not myspace.

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The result was train wreck - in any event, no consensus to delete them all, and no clear visibility to what the outcome of individual discussions would be based on this discussion. GRBerry 03:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Several Monty Python sketches

Accidents Sketch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses
Arthur 'Two Sheds' Jackson‎
Conrad Poohs‎
Kilimanjaro Expedition‎
Vocational Guidance Counsellor‎
Decomposing Composers‎
Marriage Guidance Counsellor‎

Delete all - expired prods removed by editor who acknowledges that the sketches are not independently notable yet for some reason feels that the prods were "arbitrary." Given that the de-prodder acknowledges the lack of independent notability of the sketches and given that in addition to not being notable the sketches all fail WP:PLOT these seem like pretty obvious deletes. Otto4711 20:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

KEEP ALL - While its true that these Monty Python skits can not be absolutely defined as notable, I would argue that was actually the nature of Monty Python. Some of the funniest bits of that show were not the sketches which are commonly known, such as Spam, but really the segue pieces. I am therefore requesting removal of the deletion notice on the grounds that it is arbitrary, and that Knowledge (XXG) provides an excellent repository for showcasing Monty Python skits. There are after all 100s of Monty Python Skits and only a handful that have been made into articles in Knowledge (XXG). I could also propose merging all proposed deleted articles into one related article to save some fine contributions from the wiki community. Thank You.--10stone5 20:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, there's no assertion of notability, usually no references and nothing but a plot summary in any of these articles. All against policy. Noroton 21:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge all (plot summaries) into one article. -- lucasbfr 21:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge. Information is worthwhile, but not as separate articles. Operating 21:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep why delete two sheds but keep nudge nudge? Either get rid of every MP sketch article or keep them all. The only other sensible alternative is to only keep "notable" sketches, which would be sketches that have been written about or reviewed independently. But that would be silly. We have a separate article for every Frasier episode, not just the "notable" ones. Likewise, it is fine to have an article for every MP sketch. Capmango 23:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • WP:WAX is not a reasonable argument for against deletion. Maybe we shouldn't have an article on every Frasier episode. I don't know. It doesn't matter, because the existence of those articles has nothing to do with the existence of these. The existence of other MP sketch articles is not a valid reason for keeping these. Otto4711 00:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not arguing for deletion. And I was using the Frasier example illustritively. There are plenty of situations where it makes sense as an encyclopedia to have a complete set. We had similar discussions about NY subway stops. Some are clearly notable, some maybe not so much, but if we're going to cover subway stops, it makes sense to cover all of them. If we're going to cover Monty Python sketches (and we should), it makes WP:SENSE to cover them all. Capmango 03:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep All or Renominate Separately so that we can discuss the merits of each separately. I know that the Anne Elk Brontosaurus episode is notable and the Kilamanjaro episode might be considered notable. Pocopocopocopoco 23:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I have confidence in the ability of my fellow editors to be able to review this small selection of similar and related articles and come to a decision. If you have reliable sources that attest to the notability of the Anne Elk sketch then please add them to the article. Otto4711 00:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Someone's typing up a transcript of the sketch and uploading it to IMDB doesn't make the sketch notable. Anyone can type up a scene from a TV show and upload it there. Otto4711 02:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • How? My impression is that IMDB does not follow the wikipedia model of everybody editing articles, especially memorable quote articles. IMDB is used extensively in wiki as a source. Besides, shouldn't you show why Anne Elk is not notable? Pocopocopocopoco 02:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The lack of reliable sources that are substantially about the particular sketch demonstrate its lack of notability. IMDB allows anyone to upload information and exercises varying degrees of editorial control over the uploaded information. Its use as a source on Knowledge (XXG) has been contentious. However, even if IMDB were an impeccable source, the existence of a transcript of a particular sketch does not establish that the sketch is notable. Existence does not equal notability. Otto4711 12:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Please read WP:N. Notability means that the subject of the article is the substantial subject of reliable sources. A one-line mention in a book of at least 127 pages is not substantially about the sketch. Otto4711 15:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The problem is that most of us do online searches as we can't be bothered to go to a library over something like this and it might be difficult to get the rigorous standards that you demand for something that was a skit over 30 years ago online. During it's time, this skit was popular, it occurred before my time but people still talked about it when I was a kid. I know your going to start putting in a whole bunch of wikipedia links like WP:OR but what can I say. This skit generates almost a thousand hits on google and there are some reliable sources like the one I mentioned above that make reference to it. Right now I don't have time to do a more extensive search at the different hits, perhaps later. Pocopocopocopoco 20:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, but notability is not some rigorous unattainable standard. And the fact that you keep using words like "popular" indicates that you don't understand what notability is. It is not popularity. It is not a measure of how many Google hits it generates (the majority of which I'm sure are fansites and other unreliable sources). It is not about things "referencing" the sketch in passing. It is about having independent reliable sources that are substantially about the sketch. Otto4711 21:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all. At the time this comment is written, none of the sketches have any sources demonstrating their independent notability beyond the fact that they're all Monty Python routines and therefore hilarious. If there are sources which can be added for any of them, I'll gladly review my opinion. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all These are all plot summaries that don't do the show justice. Why should they be on Knowledge (XXG)? I'm sure the vast majority of Monty Python sketches are non-notable. Fee Fi Foe Fum 05:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. The theory on notability of Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses. That is the theory, it is mine, and it belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too. :) Pocopocopocopoco 14:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep All These are all notable sketches to some degree or another, especially when considered as a whole. On individual basis, i could see deleting one or two of them as non-notable, but as a block, i'm sorry, several are important cultural and historical events that reveal quite a bit about other things in society. It might be interesting to consider the recent actions on another monty python sketch that was not added in here, which is the football sketch which was recently kept. Did these prods happen at the same time? or after. I suspect the same time. Monty Python's work is notable, some of it is more notable than others. --Buridan 17:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • It is very easy to state that something has some sort of cultural significance. It is quite another to back up that claim with reliable sources. You're admitting here that at least some of this material does not meet Knowledge (XXG) notability guidelines yet you're arguing to keep it anyway. WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid argument for keeping. The fact that the football sketch article was (wrongly IMHO) kept has no bearing on whether any of these articles should be kept, because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid reason for keeping. However, if you want to make the argument, then consider that for every AFDed MP sketch article that's been kept several have been deleted, including "Blackmail" (deleted), "Albatross" (deleted), "Court Scene with Cardinal Richelieu," "Court Charades" and "Dennis Moore" (all deleted), "Erotic film" (deleted), "Conquistador Coffee Campaign" (deleted), "Johann Gambolputty" (deleted), "Mr. Hilter and the Minehead by-election" (deleted), "Medical Love Song" (deleted), "Silly Job Interview (deleted) and "Restaurant Abuse/Cannibalism" (deleted) and many others that did not survive being prodded. Otto4711 18:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • comment yes many have been deleted, and i suspect they will be remade eventually, it is that people recognize them as notable. if your point is about it needs verifiable material, then you should have marked them with cleanup, expert, and improve. No i am saying that at this point in time, some of the material might not have verifiable sources to show notability, but others certainly will. I haven't researched it, but then neither did you, you just marked it as delete, when it seems to me that again, you mark something for delete that you really want improved. stop WP:Bureucracy in favor of WP:common. I also want to note that I saw at least one Prod of yours in recent history that wasn't marked with an edit summary. It might be that some of these need deletion review. please use edit summaries on deletion proposals. --Buridan 22:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • My point is not that they need to be cleaned up. My point is, has been and will continue to be that the sketches are not independently notable. The notability of Monty Python does not extend to every three-minute segment that the troupe committed to film. This is honestly not that complex of a position, and all of your Wiki-lawyering and (incorrect) supposition about my motives, my desires or my actions does not suddenly make what is not notable, notable. Otto4711 22:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I have no suppositions about your actions other than to assume you are trying to do the right thing. That said, these are notable and python's notability does extend to some extent and your claim that they are not only requires reliable sources to show that they are, if you only need reliable sources, then you need to mark that first, and stop wasting people's time with unwarranted deletion nominations. if it requires cleanup and you are allowing for that, that is where it should start. I'm not wikilawering here, not deleting python sketches to me seems like wp:common, i did make a request that you mark prods on their edit summary, i think that is reasonable. --Buridan 00:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You're still falsely assuming that I did no research before prodding and then nominating these articles. I do mark prods in their edit summary. I missed one? So sorry, big deal. Is anyone going to miss the big PROD notice on the article? No. And, I again call attention to the fact that the person who removed the expired prods acknowledges that the sketches are not notable but was apparently upset that not every single MP sketch was prodded at the same time. And now the nomination is being criticised because they were all done at the same time. Otto4711 04:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • List individually I havent the least idea whether any MP sketch is notable, as I avoid him altogether. But I think it reasonable a priori that the notability of them will differ, and so I ask that the nom be withdrawn and they be listed individually. DGG (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. It is clear that the nominator has not made any effort to investigate whether these skits are notable as he says above (emphasis is mine) " It is not a measure of how many Google hits it generates (the majority of which I'm sure are fansites and other unreliable sources)". He is obviously arguing that they are not notable unless we can prove that they are notable. Given that the subject matter decades old and has many hits with a google search and given that there are 7 skits, it's time consuming for us to search through and find material showing notability of these skits. Unless the nominator can prove that they are not notable, at this point I recommend speedy keep and close this AFD, give the authors a chance to beef up the articles to show notability (say a couple months), and if the nominator really wants to, he can renominate these articles individually after the authors have beefed up the articles. Pocopocopocopoco 00:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'll take that as admission that you haven't investigated whether these sketches are notable. Also, I think it's funny when you accuse me of wikilawyering when you've been doing a great deal of wikilawyering above. Just look at the number of times you've linked in a wikipedia policy link above and I also believe you are trying to get us to abide by the letter of WP:N while violating it's spirit. Pocopocopocopoco 00:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You're free to take it as an admission of anything you'd like, but sadly, your interpretation has absolutely no basis in reality. And gee, excuse me for including links to the policies I cite. Although I think you'll find that it's pretty standard practice, when citing a policy one believes supports one's position, to include a link to it in one's argument as a courtesy to those who might want to review the policy. It is not within the spirit of WP:N to retain material that is not notable; indeed, the spirit of WP:N is that subjects should be notable. I do not understand how WP:N can be read either in letter or in spirit to mean that articles on subjects that are not notable should be retained. So I'll ask again, can you offer any reliable sources that establish the independent notability of any of these subjects? Otto4711 01:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Congratulations, you have successfully established that the sketch exists. However, existence does not equal notability. You have failed to demonstrate that this sketch is in any way independently notable. Otto4711 12:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep all or at least renominate separately. Monty Python is very famous and thus all of its sketches should be at least mentioned. JIP | Talk 04:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • List individually and (those who do it or are contemplating doing so), please refrain from responding to every comment or opinion that disagrees with yours. It's bad form, intimidating to some, and not good evidence of your individual brilliance. Better use of that brilliance would be to improve the articles in question, seek out whatever you think is missing and add it, etc. Lou Sander 12:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The current python project for instance does little service to the particular phenomenon of Monty Python - and its effect on many in the english speaking word - any traces/aspects of the phenomenon - however slight in some editors views - need careful preservation from the lumberjacks. cheers SatuSuro 02:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • So you're suggesting that every single thing associated with Monty Python ever should have its own article? With no regard to the actual notability of the thing in question? That viewpoint does not appear to have any foundation in our policies and guidelines, which establish standards of notability for Knowledge (XXG) articles. Otto4711 12:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Response - nowhere in this did i say what you are attributing to me - I concur with Lou Sander above - take careful note of the advice SatuSuro 00:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep all - Several books regarding Monty Python have been published, going into often extraordinary detail regarding the subject, yes, including individual skits. I think that those volumes help establish the notability of these skits. Having said that, I have no objections to the possibility of merging and/or otherwise combining several of these articles into a reduced number of articles, perhaps one per episode, after the articles have been worked on a bit more and it is clearer exactly how long they are likely to ultimately be. But deletion at this point seems uncalled for. John Carter 16:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The notability of Python as a whole and the notability of other Python sketches does not translate to notability for these sketches. In the absence of substantial coverage of these sketches the coverage of other sketches in these sources is irrelevant. Otto4711 19:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
My statement above was not intended to deal directly with the subject of these skits per se. I don't think any of us know one way or another whether these skits do receive substantive treatment in the relevant books yet. I know I don't, having just started doing anything with that subject today. However, I do believe that if the skits are found to be non-notable individually, they will almost certainly be turned into sections of other articles shortly thereafter. If that is the case, then deleting them now, before such notability can be established by the comparatively few individuals who have had any activity with the subject area, might prove to be counterproductive. If they do qualify as non-notable, though, like I said, I am certain the content will be merged into other articles, probably individual episode articles, and probably shortly after non-notability is determined. I just don't see a need to rush to judgement here. John Carter 20:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Neither do I, and, in fact, I made no such statement. If that is the amount of time they have been "sitting around", however, I could agree that you might have been justified in starting the conversation. However, I believe with at least a few people, myself included, with any luck now engaging in at least some active work on the articles, I think it would be extremely presumptuous to assume that that much time would be required. And I could certainly agree to a potential renomination in a much shorter time if no action were taken in the interim. Actually, if that heppened, I'm fairly sure I'd support deletion myself. But I do think that perhaps a period of one or two months to work on all the articles invovled would not be necessarily onerous. John Carter 14:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was No consensus. Espresso Addict 21:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

SCAR (programming language) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Contested prod - I believe that SCAR is not notable outside of RuneScape cheating (which is not particularly notable itself) and I believe there are no reliable sources about this subject, or to establish any sort of notability. OSborn 20:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep I think it is notable enough.–Sidious1701(talk • email • todo) 20:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletions. -- OSborn 20:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete I am in 2 minds about this one, but given the fact it was developed specifically for usage in a small community/environment, and that I can't easily find an adaquate amount of notability outside of this (or indeed a suffice amount of publications which would convince me that it meets minimum notability requirements for inclusion), i'll have to vote for deletion. Bungle 20:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete No independent, reliable sources. The title is also a bit misleading; it's a Pascal interpreter, which means it's unlikely to generate the coverage you'd expect from a genuinely new programming language. Plus it doesn't seem notable enough to have been included in the RuneScape article. Thomjakobsen 22:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Per lack of sourcing/information. • Lawrence Cohen 17:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strongly against deleting SCAR has a very strong and interesting history behind it, and is more than notable enough to keep. Over 30'000 people know about SCAR and how it works, and the majority use and program with it everyday. SCAR is primarily used for cheating in the online game RuneScape and is the only program which has stood the test of time with this game making it infamous on RuneScape. Apart from that, SCAR can also be used for many other things, such as doing boring repetitive tasks on your computer easily and even creating games. It is a great way to slowly slide your way into the world of programming, and since learning how to use SCAR successfully, i have found that i can also use Pascal, Delphi, PHP and CSS extremely easily as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.217 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete as one claim to notability ends in a deadlink. --Gavin Collins 20:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Not-quite-weak-but-not-strong-either Keep Many people use SCAR and there are many sites that talk about it quite frequently. The reason why there aren't many sources outside the community is because it is considered taboo because of its widespread use in making cheats for video games. But if you look at the Razor 1911 or similar articles, you'll find that almost all the sources link to community sites/forums and such. And if you Google "Scar programming -Antarctic," you get almost 700,000 pages, only few of which are not talking about the programming language. Also, @Thomjakobsen, the reason why it's not on the RuneScape article is because of the game owner's dislike of it. It periodically will show up, but quickly get deleted (or at least that's what used to happen a 10 months ago...) @Gavin, sorry, changed the link to the black book; it's a zip but virusless.
In my opinion, this article could greatly improve if someone took 20 minutes to look for more varied sources (If my memory serves me correctly, SCAR was actually mentioned on the RuneScape page a couple of years ago), and tweak the overall feel of the article (make sure there are no spelling/grammar/continuity mistakes, switch around sentences, mess with sections. Aside from it's almost complete lack of sources (which like I said can quickly be fixed by someone who will "take one for the team" and stop playing Halo 3 for 20 minutes), there are almost no other faults in this article. Qoou.Anonimu 01:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was keep. John254 01:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The Dirty Fork (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete - expired prod removed by editor on the grounds that, while s/he acknowledges that the grounds for the prod were valid (that the sketch is not independently notable) she believes the prod was "arbitrary." Given that even the de-prodder acknowledges that the sketch is not independently notable and given that it also, as a plot summary of the sketch, fails WP:PLOT, this seems like a pretty obvious delete. Otto4711 20:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - While its true that this skit and several others can not be absolutely defined as notable, I would argue that was actually the nature of Monty Python. Some of the funniest bits of that show were not the sketches which are commonly known, such as Spam but really the segue pieces. I am therefore removing the deletion notice on the grounds that it is arbitrary, and that Knowledge (XXG) provides an excellent repository for showcasing Monty Python skits. There are after all 100s of Monty Python Skits and only a handful that have been made into articles in Knowledge (XXG). I would also propose merging all proposed deleted articles into one related article to save some fine contributions from the wiki community. Thank You.--10stone5 20:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The reason that only a handful of sketches have been made into articles is because very few of them are independently notable. Indeed, a couple dozen or so similar articles have been deleted over the last few weeks for said lack of independent notability. Otto4711 22:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This sketch is independently notable. Much more notable than many/most of the albums by minor artists that appear here. Still notable decades after it was performed. Lou Sander 01:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The first source is written by the Pythons and so is not independent. It also apparently simply a transcript of the sketch collected in book form. The second source is not about the sketch itself; it is about the Pythons' feelings about punch lines. Neither source comes remotely close to establishing that this individual sketch is in any way independently notable. Otto4711 21:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • It is hard to see what you are driving at. This sketch has become a staple of popular culture, so there's very little doubt about its notability. Are you claiming that a single short work out of a very large body of short works must have independent publications about it before it can be treated as notable? What about dozens of reprints, reissues, mentions in commentaries on the body of work, etc.? Lou Sander 21:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Independent reliable sources that attest to the sketch's being "a staple of popular culture" would be a good place to start. Do you have any of those? Otto4711 21:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • If someone wants to think that items of popular culture with decades worth of worldwide following, multiple reissues in various formats and languages are not notable, it's best just to let them keep thinking it. Lou Sander 22:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh please. You know as well as I that the standard is not "sources." The standard is independent reliable sources that are substnatially about the subject. A collection of sketch transcripts written by the Pythons is not an independent reliable source. An interview segment about the Python philospohy on punchlines is not substantially about the sketch. Otto4711 04:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Do you have an actual reason for wanting the article kept that refutes the nomination or are you limited to name-calling and assumptions of bad faith? Otto4711 01:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Screaming Mimes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable per WP:BAND. Local band with only two albums to their credit thus far, one independently produced, one produced by a now-defunct label run by one of the band members. No third party reliable sources to establish notability. Sethacus 20:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

El DoboLocoPapo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non notable myspace music artist ~Eliz81 19:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about the links- when the article is deleted, the redirects will be gone. I'll remove the listing from dab pages. -- Mike (Kicking222) 14:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Speedily deleted per WP:CSD G11, blatant advertising. This is a notable company; at least, I had heard of it well before seeing an article here. We should have an article about it. But the text here was so irremediably bad that starting from scratch is necessary. - Smerdis of Tlön 19:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Escort Radar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Reads like an advertisement, would require a total rewrite, which nobody seems to want to do. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 02:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Dave Storm (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Fails WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC. A non-notable guy who plays in a non-notable band. Crunch 19:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Eluchil404 00:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fred Lippert (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

fails WP:BIO, no google hits found that support notability - prod removed NeilN 19:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

NeilN - can you give me a chance to improve on wiki? When you AfD this article minutes after I submit a first iteration does not give me chance to comply. Please let me know if you have any specific objections to the article. I do have referencable material, however it may take a while to get this together. Thanks, Bpomykala 19:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: First, "minutes" is an exaggeration. Second, I originally prodded the article which would have given you five days to improve it. However you removed the prod tag without explaining why therefore the article was listed on AfD. AfD discussions also typically last five days. If you can provide sources within this time that show the subject meets WP:BIO then I will certainly withdraw the nomination. --NeilN 19:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment. True, the article's main author should find print references during the Afd discussion to establish notability.Operating 20:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I searched Google Books, which have sources from the subject's lifetime and came up short. I'm having a hard time seeing the notability here. He built a non-notable church and part of a notable one? Outside that, the article is a litany of unencyclopedic "X lived here, then he moved over there" statements. I'm willing to give the author the full time alloted on this AfD, but, right now, I'm leaning towards delete.--Sethacus 20:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Voting to delete In 5 days, the only change made to the article has been a slide show, purportedly of houses the subject built. Unfortunately, that's not enough to satisfy.--Sethacus 15:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep per WP:SNOW, non-admin closure. Ten Pound Hammer • 19:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Erik Prince (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Bio is WP:NN. Fails to meet WP:BIO. Meets WP:NOT#DIR. Article is linked to no other notable pages, cites no credible sources. Contains mostly advertising and POV spam. Btl 18:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - Of course he is notable, he founded one of the largest defense companies in the world. He is heavily mentioned in external independent reliable sources and there are many hits in Google current news. End of the day he is notable, the article just isn't written properly --Childzy ¤ Talk 19:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep And I question the good faith of this deletion debate. He's the founder and CEO of the world's largest PMC, is constantly in the press for it. Plenty of news articles. Does not read like advertising or POV spam, although it's not great. ⇒ SWATJester 19:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Very notable. Type in "Erik Prince" into Google news and find ~70 recent mentions by such reliable sources as the LA Times, Reuters, Financial Times, The Associated Press, and Times. While the article could cite many more of these reliable sources, and it certainly could use improvement, it certainly does not warrant deletion. Also, no mention of any specific deficiencies has been made on the talk page or on this AfD besides to allege "POV spam". I also fail to see what could be construed as "advertising". johnpseudo 19:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep. Seems like a bad faith nomination. -Crunch 19:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. As the founder of the iconic private military company, Prince is highly notable. However, because his company, Blackwater USA, has recently been in major headlines, this entry has been subject to extensive vandalism and should perhaps be protected from IP edits. There is extensive information about Prince in Robert Young Pelton's book Licensed to Kill. I would prefer not to be the person expanding this entry. --Pleasantville 19:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Google returns 2 million articles related to him and the name.Operating 19:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. —] 19:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Rock, Paper, Scissors variations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:OR, and WP:MADEUP. Here's a randomly selected bullet point in the article: Superman, Spider-Man, Batman is another variation. Superman beats Spider-Man, Spider-Man beats Batman, and (due to his possession of a Kryptonite ring given to him by Superman) Batman beats Superman. The actions are as follows: Superman - arm raised Superman style; Spider-Man - palms face upwards with middle finger touching palm; Batman - hold ring finger out with smug look on face. Completely made up in school one day, no way to find verification for this. -- Wikipedical 18:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete and block article creator indefinitely. DS 04:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Contested prod. Non notable if existing. The only proven fact is the existence of a video on youtube. The references are bogus. There is no website shortfilms.com, shortfilms.com.au and shortfilm.com have no information on this person. No information about person, company or films at the New Zealand Film Commission, founded 1978, website. No mention in the annual report 2006 which does not have a page 299. VirtualDelight 18:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletions. dramatic 09:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Dragon NaturallySpeaking commands (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:NOT a manual. This is far more detail than is needed for encyclopedic coverage of the software. Toohool 18:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was speedy keep, frivolous nomination. delldot talk 18:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Viacom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I looked, but I couldn't find "Viacom" in the OED. I have lost all hope 18:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was No consensus. ELIMINATORJR 23:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

List of shopping malls in Houston, Texas (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

List subject is already adequately covered by Category:Shopping malls in Houston; the list contains no additional information about each mall. The only page that links to it is Portal:Houston/Houston lists. See Knowledge (XXG):Categories, lists, and series boxes for the relevant guidelines. —Disavian (/contribs) 18:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Knowledge (XXG):Listcruft is an essay. It is not a policy or guideline. -- Postoak 21:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The article describes the pro's and con's of the terms usage. To me it simply describes an irrelevant list. Which is what this article is. I can produce a hundred lists like this every day, as i'm sure you can. Operating 21:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it is irrelevant to you, but that doesn't mean it should be deleted. See WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Postoak 17:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
It is acceptable for categories and lists to co-exist. Please see Knowledge (XXG):Categories, lists, and series boxes and WP:UNENCYCLOPEDIC. Postoak 02:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
It is acceptable for categories and lists to co-exist. Please see Knowledge (XXG):Categories, lists, and series boxes. Postoak 02:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Your correct, they can coexist - but if you read the section pertaining to the advantages of lists; have any of the suggested improvements been implemented (other than redlink). Sorry, but as it stands, it is JUST a copy of the Category listing. Exit2DOS2000 04:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
No, that is incorrect. The list also contains articles that have not been created and therefore cannot be categorized. Postoak 05:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
weak keep - Improvement + Effort has been shown Comments AfD is not the place for getting guidance on how to improve an article - comment to above - thoes are called redlinks, and I did say "(other than redlink)" Exit2DOS2000 18:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, well go type "List of shopping malls" in your search box and see what we find. We apparently are providing this. It is acceptable for categories and lists to co-exist. We should review Knowledge (XXG):Categories, lists, and series boxes. Postoak 00:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
It is acceptable for categories and lists to co-exist. Please see Knowledge (XXG):Categories, lists, and series boxes. "Creating a problem for the category?" Please elaborate. Postoak 14:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. No evidence provided that would satify the requirements of WP:V. Neil ム 14:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Games Workshop Online Community (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

There are no independent reliable sources supporting the notability of this community, and searching for it in Google and Google News does not find anything helpful either. The notability of the subject is not established and probably can't be established. It should be deleted as non-notable. Reinis 18:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, I'm slightly annoyed the closing admin didn't explain his verdict, though I understand that is not compulsory. --Agamemnon2 18:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Significant community, definitely moreso when the official boards were open. Since the closing of the official forums, the community has dispersed across many other sub-communities. The reason why searching for it is difficult is because it does not exist as one "Games Workshop Online Community". Search for the different games. They are bundled together in one article as a list with the company that makes the games as a common denominator. Shrumster 20:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Knowledge (XXG) is an encyclopedia. Online communtites are often not notable because of there transitory nature. This community may be long standing, but it doesn't add anything to human knowledge. Operating 20:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't see how this reason relates to WP:Deletion policy, or to any WP guideline.DGG (talk) 01:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment It relates to WP:N and the general philosophy of Knowledge (XXG), that it's not an indiscriminate conglomeration of information. Reinis 11:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: the problems stem from the first sentence: "The Games Workshop Online Community refers to the registered members of any internet fora or websites specifically for Games Workshop's miniature wargames, including The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game, Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40,000, and the influence that the community has on these products." Without a reliable source who has actually said this, the article is essentially original research in that it is describing a "community" which does not exist in any verifiable sense. None of the sites mentioned in the article would be notable on their own given a complete lack of third party coverage of them, and bundling them together under a made-up term doesn't make the group notable. Basically, it's a well disguised web directory. --Pak21 08:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: As to the sites being grouped together under specific games, I would refer you to this publication of the "Lord of the Rings Online Community": 213.202.136.136 21:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Judging by the metrics the site displays, my own personal site receives more attention in a week than it has received in a year. It's just not a reliable source. Reinis 22:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. "My site is more popular than X, therefore X is not a reliable source." is not a valid argument. If it is, then some of the sites covered by the article such as WS, B&C, Waaagh and LO are definitely more "reliable". Shrumster 04:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
        • For a site or journal to be reliable, it needs to have a certain reputation, and if almost no one reads it, it can't have that, therefore it can't be reliable. It is a valid argument, and the other sites are more qualified in this respect, but still fail for other reasons. Reinis 06:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
          • Site statistics can be misleading, and it's neither a measure of reliability or notability. For just one example, it is possible that readers bypass the site homepage and go straight to downloading the magazine. Also, 34 pages is more than White Dwarf magazine typically has on LotR, and that's ignoring the differences in quality (much of WD's content is advertising).
            While mentioning White Dwarf, it is also worth note that articles from the online website are in WD, which is published globally (including tens of thousands of copies sold in the UK each month). The magazine's recognised position in miniature wargaming would also add weight to its use as a source in the article. --Grimhelm 17:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
            • Whatever, I'm just saying that relative popularity is prerequisite for having any kind of a reputation. Even if the journal was popular (which is doubtful), it would still not be an independent source and therefore wouldn't be suitable for verifying the notability of the subject. Reinis 19:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
              • I think what the original point was was that it shows there is a "Games Workshop Online Community" grouped around specific sites, and even as a primary source it is fine for that purpose. --Grimhelm 19:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I'm inclined to agree with Shrumster, and would say that the "Official Community" and "Worldwide Campaigns" sections are, in particular, well written, cited and notable. I think with regard to the unofficial sites, specific items of notability are given - among other things the effect that these websites have had on Games Workshop products. Although the "wider community" section splits into the individual games, as Shrumster notes, a look at any of the sites mentioned will show that there is overlap between them (and the different GW games); the magazine mentioned above does highlight the case of a LotR community existing, spanning three or four major sites (as it happens, two of these are the only specific sites mentioned here). The term "Games Workshop Online Community" is also used by GW itself (eg. ).
I think the article is interesting and informative, and explains the subject's importance on a miniature wargaming hobby to the uninvolved reader, rather than being "just a web directory". The article itself was also majorly improved after a GA review, and I'm sure with only a slight amount of work it could pass a second review. --Grimhelm 22:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There are still no independent reliable sources affirming the notability of the subject. Reinis 22:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the notability in miniature wargaming is fairly self-evident from what is given in the article, although for an example of a third party media coverage the Irish Radio station 2fm (in June 2003) comes to mind. Also, some moderators have been mentioned by name in rule-books (eg. A Shadow in the East). --Grimhelm 17:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
How do do you suppose being mentioned in a radio show could be verifiable, unless a transcript or a summary is published? Did the show talk about the whole "community" or individual forums? Should people use a time machine to hear what was actually said? Knowledge (XXG)'s notability guidelines have a strict requirement for "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject", and it's not satisfied, so your objections are irrelevant. You are only asserting that the subject is notable, but aren't providing any adequate proof. As far as I can see, the article should be deleted as non-notable, because it has no relevance outside of the community itself. Reinis 19:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
That's why it's not cited in the article, but I'm just mentioning it as an example that wouldn't be evident from the article's sources. But I still maintain the relevance of the community on (real world) gaming clubs, Hobby centres, independent stockists, production of miniatures, official rule-books; and of course the more specialised games that receive sole support from online articles and resources; all of which cites sources in the article. (emphasis added following reply on 26 Sep)
On a side note, I also think this AfD should be treated as much as a gaming AfD as an internet one. --Grimhelm 19:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you don't need a time machine. That's why we have citations for tv episodes, radio shows, movies and not just for online sources. Remember, just because you haven't seen/heard it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Shrumster 19:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
You say I don't need a time machine, but how exactly can this source be used for verification? How does one check it, by asking an anonymous editor on Knowledge (XXG)? Reinis 18:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Right, all you're maintaining is your unsupported opinion. Reinis 16:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Grim has said more than that. However, you seem to have a deletion agenda in mind, as evidenced by your adding the word "unsupported" to your previous reply. I can see that no matter what anyone says, you'll just try to blindly ignore/discount their arguments. No use arguing, so I'll just let the closing admin have his final say. Shrumster 19:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
You are trying to evade the requirement for reliable and independent sources, and I'm just commenting on that. Please bring the sources if they exist, or let this article be deleted, because it does not belong on Knowledge (XXG). Reinis 18:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Eluchil404 00:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Lorrie Sprecher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

One novel, a few poems, two albums. Not notable per WP:BIO. SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete (non admin). Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) 03:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

SolidCAM (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Does not even assert notability, seems to be blatant advertising. The creator of the article removed the {{db-spam}} template, and shortly after it being replaced, and after the creator was advised that it was the inappropriate for them to remove it and that they should use {{hangon}} instead, an IP suddenly removed it (which, incidentally, has only worked on this article). That's why I'm bringing it to AfD rather than requesting Speedy once again. It should also be noted that the creator of the page is User:DavidSomekh and the company was founded by Emil Somekh. Given the unusual last name, I find it hard to believe that there aren't WP:COI issues too.  — Timotab 17:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment. I dont care enough to edit that page. I'm simply saying that the comment it fails wp:corp isn't true. Operating 23:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Not notable? give me a brake... You guys can at least check before you say things.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidSomekh (talk • contribs) 08:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC) DavidSomekh —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 07:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Eluchil404 00:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Lee Frederick Holmes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Despite the acting credits listed in the article, this actor has received little to no reliable source press coverage. As noted at WP:COIN, the only person interested in editing the article appears to be Lee Frederick Holmes himself. In any event, Lee Frederick Holmes has not received enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of Lee Frederick Holmes to develop an attributable article on the topic. The topic fails general notability guidelines. If there are reliable sources, please list them in this AfD or use them in the article. -- Jreferee T/C 16:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was No Consensus. Eluchil404 00:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Lois Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Finishing unfinished nom placed by User:Ranchdeny; I abstain. Ten Pound Hammer • 19:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Weak delete Mayor of a town of over 100,000. However, there are no independent sources to suggest she's done anything noteworthy as mayor.--Sethacus 20:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Local politicians who haven't made a name for themself are two a penny. Operating 21:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Mayors are sufficiantly notable. It's not like she's a city councillor or anything. Plus being a mayor of a city over 100,000 is NOT a reason to delete an article, to the contrary in fact. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Since being created years ago the only additions have been vandalism, 2 sentences do not make an article, it's unsourced, being a mayor or former mayor is not the only criteria of inclusion on wikipedia, no one maintains or improves this article it is unlikely to ever meet the standards, the small amount of info about the mayor is better mentioned in the article on the article about the town in question Bleh999 01:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I have expanded and referenced the article so that there is enough in the article to meet WP:BIO. Aa mayor of a large town I am sure there is more that I have not found to expand the article even further. Davewild 09:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
per WP:BIO 'Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage'. & 'Just being an elected local official does not guarantee notability'. Your addition is good but the information is not actually notable since the subject of the biography only gets a minor mention and is not the main subject of the coverage. Bleh999 14:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe the coverage in as well as in the google news archive , many of which are subscription so I can't access them myself so have not added to the article, are significant press coverage and so she does pass WP:BIO. Davewild 14:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 02:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Revolution Radio Broadcast (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable local radio show, most likely a vanity page, as the article creator appears to be one of the show producers. No indications of notability on the page, other than the show's existence. Delete MikeWazowski 16:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Stifle (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

More (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This band doesn't seem notable to me. Their label GB productions is very small and was obviously founded by Gianmarco Bellumori, a member of the band. There are articles about the band in Wikipedias of many languages, but they were all started by the same IP and formated in a very similar manner. I could neither find an entry about the band in All music guide. This is why it has already been deleted on the German Knowledge (XXG) yesterday Axolotl Nr.733 15:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete The group does not appear to have any third party sources that assert their importance. They appear non notable. --Stormbay 17:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Last.FM has no mention of the band. It mentions a 'More' who are from Quebec.Operating 21:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Searching is difficult due to the generic name, but I found this, this, this, this and this, all of which are third party biographies of the band. One of them is in English, and they were from a search of "Andrea Longhitano" and then "Andrea Longhitano" More. Admittedly, they don't seem to have much of a presence outside Italy, but I think they are notable. There are probably more sources too, they were just from the first page of both searches. (On an unrelated note, it would seem my adblock filters have no bearing on Italian sites.) J Milburn 22:35, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was keep. John254 01:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Rodryg Dunin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Clearly a non notable person and fails WP:BIO. A google search reveals less then 500 topics. The two references only state 1) about his estate and 2) a list of Virtuti Militari Recipients, of which he is one of a few hundred. None of those sources are verifiable nor trustworthy sources. CO2 15:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Chris Senior (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable footballer. Has never played in a professional league. Mattythewhite 15:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. DS 18:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I suspect a neologism or WP:NFT here. I can't find any use of this term in this context through Google and the author has provided no citations. Deproded by author, who has only edited this article. eaolson 15:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete ^demon 18:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sputnikmusic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Two years after AfD#1, the only reliable source press Sputnikmusic could muster is a mention in the The Capital Times that "Sputnikmusic.com (is) a community-driven site featuring CD reviews." Sputnikmusic formally was known as Musicianforums. Musicianforums now redirects to Sputnikmusic and previously was listed at AfD. Musicianforums received no press coverage. Collectively, sputnikmusic has not received enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of Sputnikmusic to develop an attributable article on the topic. The topic fails general notability guidelines and the article should be deleted.

Musicianforums (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - has an extensive edit history, appears to have been redirected without consensus, and I also am nominating it for deletion with Sputnikmusic. -- Jreferee T/C 14:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • This account was registered for the sole purpose of maintaining our page and establishing credibility and general notability guidelines due to the incessant vandalism our page receives from problem users. This was only registered a couple days ago, and we haven't had any time to fix our page as of yet. Furthermore, with the constant vandalism our page receives from problem users at our site, a lot of problems arise. It is our goal to meet Knowledge (XXG)'s standards; unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time at this very moment to fix the page. It's going to take quite a bit of work on my end to fix things and meet your guidelines, so I hope that asking for a little more patience, considering this account was just launched within the week, wouldn't be too much to ask. Thanks for your time. -SputnikmusicReviews 19:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC) — SputnikmusicReviews (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Just a couple of issues to point out:
  • Sputnikmusic was not formerly known as Musicianforums- they were two separate entities and the latter was assimilated by the former, and is still practically distinct from the parent site.
  • Sputnikmusic's staff is generally considered to be one of the most reliable of its kind; the web's largest review aggregation website Metacritic lists Sputnikmusic among its sources (almost all, if not all, of which have wikipedia entries); a simple Google hits search turns up two million results; the website has been mentioned in several mainstream media publications, such as The Guardian; Sputnikmusic has been cited in publicity material by a wide variety of highly successful bands, artists and publicity agencies, including Epitaph Records and Sony/BMG; and in retail outlets such as Buy.com.
-- Anylayman 21:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Another important aspect of sputnikmusic.com's credibility is that the staff reviewers routinely get promotional material sent to them by big labels including Columbia, Epitaph, Victory, among others. While this is not like a citation in the AP in that it can't be linked as a resource, there is something to be said for being considered valuable by those producing and marketing the music. --DFelon204409 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 05:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Nevermind - The user in question appears to have been blocked. ZZ ~ Evidence 15:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

RepliGo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This software appears to fail WP:CORP. No independent sources are given, and none have been added since last November (or even longer). Google gives a lot of hits, but mostly for shop or download sites. Clear evidence of notability is lacking. Also note that employees of the manufacturer have edited the article (cf. talk page). PROD was contested in November 2006. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 14:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 02:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Happy Ghotra (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Snowball Speedy delete: Non-notable - there is an assertion of notability ("His songs Chajnn Bhanve Nit Charda & Akhian are huge hits") but Google draws blanks for artist or claimed albums. Springnuts 14:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Play-doh. RFerreira 04:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Playdough (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Multiple, including possible copyvio ... see for evidence that this might be a copyright violation, or possibly written by a publicist -- the text appears to be ripped from a Flash promotion. --Mike Schiraldi 13:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Delete. Eluchil404 00:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

List of fictional restaurants (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

To me, at least, seems like plain listcruft. No criteria given for inclusion; notability of many entries questionable. ␄ –Iknowyourider (t c) 13:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep This actually is informational. New restaurants open every day, as people save up enough money to "start their own business" (and most end up losing all that money and more). In many cases, the small business will select a name that has a connection with something the owner likes. Geez, how many "Mel's Diner" restaurants were created from a show (Alice) that can't even be seen in reruns? Depending on one's point of view, this is a list of names that one could pick or should avoid like expired milk. Mandsford 15:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete - directory of unassocicated items. Practically every movie or TV show has at least one fictional restaurant in it. What does this tell us about fictional restaurants, the fiction from which the restaurant is drawn, their interrelationship or the world around us? Nothing. We are in no way served by a listing of every restaurant or diner that appeared in a single episode of a single TV show. If the fictional restaurant is indeed notable, if for example there are reliable sources that support the notion that there were diners named "Mel's" that were founded based on the TV show, then they should have a standalone article and be in Category:Fictional restaurants. But 99.9% of fictional restaurants are not and never will be notable and an endless list of them is not encyclopedic. Otto4711 17:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete As stated above, there is nothing in the restaurants that demand inclusion. An in-universe existance does not support notability in any sense. Very few will have any refereces to cite, and those that do can stay on the associated main page. MarkBul 17:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I actually used this info in an essay. Fictional restaurants are more noteworthy than real life ones because they have come to the attention of a film or tv audience of millions.Operating 22:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete I was wondering when this list would get here. I've added a few restaurants to it myself, and I like the list, but by Knowledge (XXG)'s guidelines (which I don't necessary agree with...) this is a poster child for deletion. Unsourced context-free list. Not encycolpaedic content. Capmango 23:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Even if some of the entries have notability issues, I think it should be kept. There aren't many places where you can find decently comprehensive lists like this. I find myself very often looking things up on lists when something is too detailed to warrant its own article, and it's less haphazard than trying to dig through other pages for passing references to it. It makes Knowledge (XXG) less useful and less unnavigable to get rid of things like this. Sifaka 00:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Selective. woefully incomplete and arbitrary list. There have been literally hundreds of thousands of fictional restaurants. Why should Knowledge (XXG) have a list of some editors' favorite ones, which lack any independent reliable sources with substantial coverage, and so fail WP:N and WP:V? Any notable fictional restaurants could be in a category. Edison 03:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Indiscriminate information, as other editors have said, there are thousands of fictional restaurants, a list of them is meaningless trivia. Entirely unsourced as well. Crazysuit 04:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep reply to objections: 1/ it should be limited to those significant in significant works included in WP, and this is an editing problem, for the article talk page. We do not delete all articles with some erroneous content. 2/ If there are some not included, add them. 3/If there are thousands, it shows why we need the list. 4/Some of the entries have context & the others can have the appropriate line added. 5/ Lists are navigational devices & do not have to repeat the sourcing of the article, or nobody could ever make a list. If the articles dont justify the listing, edit them. 6/ judging my the comments, some people dont think lists appropriate content, some people dont think things in faction appropriate content--and for all I know, some people may not think restaurants appropriate content. None of these are policy. DGG (talk) 04:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • 1) If it is limited to only those notable enough for Knowledge (XXG) entries then it is completely duplicative of the category. 2) Adding more non-notable restaurants to an already indiscriminate list only makes the list more indiscriminate. 3) If there are thousands of non-notable fictional restaurants that will never ever become notable, it shows why we don't need a list. 4) Adding internal fictional "context" does not make the list any less a conglomeration of unassociated items. 5) This list serves no navigational purpose as its contents are not and in the vast overwhelming majority of cases will never be notable enough to sustain independent articles, and even if they somehow did become notable enough to sustain articles this list would still be nothing more than a linkfarm. 6) This last gripe is nothing but your usual "I like everything, everything should be kept despite its utter lack of encyclopedic content" stuff that you haul out in in almost every one of these debates. It is a deliberate mischaracterization of the content of other editors' comments and opinions and does not address the policy and guideline violations that have been brought up. Otto4711 13:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
there is no section of WP:NOT called NOT#linkfarm,. NOT#LINK does not refer to this sort of material, NOT#INFO gives 5 types of material to which it applies, none of which are remotely this one. NOT#LIST mentions only "loosely-associated" but nowhere gives an example relevant to this sort of material. So where is the policy you keep referring to repeatedly?DGG (talk) 00:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
rejoinders 1 & 2 contradict each other: if it contains the same items it would be redundant, if it contains more it would be indiscriminate, and I suppose if it contained fewer it would be incomplete. Thus we can delete every such list. That's not WP policy, and amounts to a outright refusal to follow either the letter or the spirit of WP:LIST. DGG (talk) 22:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Neither the letter nor the spirit of the guideline WP:LIST trump the policy WP:NOT. A compilation of every fictional restaurant that appeared in any single film or single television episode is clearly a directory of loosely associated topics. The things on this list have nothing in common. Otto4711 04:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete as hoax. The Publisher's Weekly article does not mention "Janson Roker". Similar information was added to Al Roker the same day that this article was created, by an IP whose contributions don't show good faith (i.e., blanking the entire Al Roker article as "unsourced" after his/her Janson edits were removed as unsourced). No Ghits except Knowledge (XXG) and its mirrors. Claims like this by a person as well-known as Al Roker would have some Web presence. NawlinWiki 04:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Janson Roker (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The article seems like a hoax as zero independent ghits - I would expect there to be some press coverage given the content. Possibly inflamatory tone to the article as per talk Kernel Saunters 11:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete - I tried to trace this a number of different ways and came up with zero. Seems like a hoax. Accounting4Taste 15:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment definite lack of reliable internet sources, but the Alex Haley article mentions this, and gives this (Deahl, Rachel. "The Long Strange Journey of 'Roots'", Publishers Weekly, 12/11/2006, Vol. 253 Issue 49, p4-4, 3/4p.) as a source. This is the version I found online -- I don't know enough about the publication to know if this is the whole article, or just an online snippet of the entire published article. --Fabrictramp 20:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus--JForget 23:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Alpha Omega (game) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
Ethan Haas Was Right (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Upcoming game with, according to the article, "little to no media attention", and online promotional campaign wih, according to the article, no offline coverage. Main article violates WP:CRYSTAL and both fail to meet WP:N. Main editor removed prod, confusing it with vandalism and leaving a personal attack on my talk page, so I'm listing them both here. Percy Snoodle 10:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Seems like the third and fourth references given on the list are actually the same press release from the company. Press releases aren't "third (or second) party" sources. As such, the claim that the game has "received attention" from RPGnet and Sekodu is true if you believe that regurgitating a company press release qualifies as real "attention". --Craw-daddy | T | 10:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment in fact, the RPGNet and Sekodu links go back to a press release at PRWeb which was written by Tom McLaughlin at Mindstorm Labs - hardly independent. Percy Snoodle 11:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - If the article is not researched or sourced enough, then put those tags on it, not an AfD. If it sounds too much like a press release, then edit it. I have heard about this game and the mechanic sounds notable and worth inclusion. Web Warlock 10:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment which game mechanic is that? Do you mean the dice pool or the customisability? Neither of those are new. Regarding the media coverage, neither the RPG nor the promotional game have had any third party coverage, and neither have had any coverage since shortly after the release. Notability is not temporary. Percy Snoodle 11:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment yes, but my ignorance of whether or not something is notable is not enough for me to choose delete over keep. I'd like to have the chance to research the game more without being under the gun of an AfD. Web Warlock 11:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment So s I understand it you agree that, as it stands, it looks non-notable; but you think there might be some evidence of notability if you had more time to check? The meat puppets brought in by La Bicyclette from the EHWR forums have failed to find any third-party coverage of a game that they're the experts on; all they've dug up is a few press releases written by the game's authors. I don't think there's anything else to find. Anyway, if they *did* find evidence of notabilty, they can always recreate the page and cite it there. Look at the sixth example in WP:PROBLEM. Percy Snoodle 11:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletions and list of Game-related deletions. --Gavin Collins 12:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)--
  • Comment These should not have been listed together, given the prior AfD for only one of the two articles and the radically different citation-situation in the two articles. These are similar, but not similar enough to have been listed together. MrZaius 12:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Ethan Haas - Many borderline RS sources make it worthy of retention. Needs major cleanup, however, as half the article reads like a game manual or hint sheet. MrZaius 12:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC) PS: Having had a chance to re-read the AfD, I'm somewhat surprised this even came up again. Closing admin had a perfectly acceptable rationale for closing keep that is no less accurate today. AfD was relatively recent, as well.
    • Comment although I wouldn't have added EHWR if I'd been aware of its AFD at the time I nominated it, I do think it needs another look now that AO has been announced. It received some coverage because it was mistakenly associated with J.J. Abrams; when it became clear that it wasn't related to him, the coverage stopped; and since Notability is not temporary, temporary coverage doesn't make it notable. Percy Snoodle 12:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Notability is not temporary. That said, the sources do appear to warrant review, and, possibly, a second AfD - just isn't nearly similar enough to be fairly considered here. MrZaius 12:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Alpha Omega (game) - Absolutely zero assertion of notability, no secondary references whatsoever. PRNews is just that - just press releases. MrZaius 12:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Alpha Omega (game) - Notability seems to be asserted, but not actually justified. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that this meets any sort of appropriate notability guideline. SamBC(talk) 14:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Ethan Haas… - coverage in various online reports adds up to notability in my book. SamBC(talk) 14:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - these really aren't sufficiently closely connected to be covered in one AfD, in my opinion. This is evidenced by the number of people who feel that one is keepable and the other not. SamBC(talk) 14:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment athough that may turn out to be tha case, I don't believe it was obvious at first. If we do keep EHWR but delete AO, it may make more sense to merge AO into EHWR than to delete it outright. (though I still think merging both into J.J. Abrams would be the right thing to do, since all the EHWR coverage is about him, not EHWR.) Percy Snoodle 17:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Alpha Omega (game) - How can one even now this game exists, given that no sources are given about the game itself and that, well, it does not yet exist? A non-existing non-sourced subject does not deserve an article. Of course an article can be written when the game will be published and covered by reliable source. And, as a comment: I assume good faith as much as the next man, but how is it that so many anonymous editors are positive about the fact that the article is "useful" (which is not a reason for keeping) and that the authors are not affiliated with whomever produces the game? --Goochelaar 17:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Michael A. Dane (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Prod tag removed without comment. Not notable, no google hits, no references. Derwig 08:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was redirect to Chapped lips. If a Chapped skin article is ever created, then this page should be redirected to the new article (non-admin closure). Pablo Talk | Contributions 21:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Chapped (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Original Research, not encyclopedic tone, better covered as a subset of a medical article, advertises a product. Mbisanz 08:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Redirect to Obsessive-compulsive disorder. Espresso Addict 00:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Obsessed person (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This reads strongly as original research, has no outside sources, duplicates much of the material in psych articles about OCD, etc, and while not a reason for deletion, is poorly formatted/spelling errors Mbisanz 08:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. The band probably is notable, but the keepists made no argument as why the album is notable. Wizardman 16:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

We Are the Dynamite! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is a non-notable yet-to-be-released album by a non-notable band. A Google search produces only Youtube, Myspace and a BBC Wales entry on a site where up and coming bands can upload their own profile. B1atv 07:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You didn't give a good reason for them being non-notable, and as they are a reasonably well known band with a large following I just interpret that as "I don't like them, so the article should die". And my user page can be a redirect if I want it to be, can't it? U-Mos 18:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Please don't try to interpret anything I say. It is not necessary as I say what I mean in very clear terms. I don't know if I like them or not because I haven't heard of them; and I did give a reason for them being non notable. I said: "A Google search produces only Youtube, Myspace and a BBC Wales entry on a site where up and coming bands can upload their own profile". The criteria for a band being notable is outlined at Knowledge (XXG):Notability_(music) it is for the article to explain how they fulfil those criteria. It doesn't. I did my own research and found nothing to suggest that it complies.
With regards to user pages redirecting to article space, I don't think that is allowed because it has the potential to confuse. Users aren't allowed to have a user name which is the same as something or someone else - you have (allbeit fictional), and rather than being a coincidence you redirect your user name to an article about U-Mos. I think you should consider changing it. B1atv 06:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, but this band is notable. To directly tackle the points in the article you linked to above, come next Monday they will have two album releases. They are headlining a concert tour later this year, and have previously toured with Lostprophets. They have been played on Radio 1. Basically, they reach notability as does, in my opinion, any band who have got further than the local clubs and etc. U-Mos 15:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Keep, but probably better is a Merge to band article (which needs heavy cleanup). ELIMINATORJR 23:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The Blackout! The Blackout! The Blackout! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This is a non-notable album by a non-notable band. A Google search produces only Youtube, Myspace and a BBC Wales entry on a site where up and coming bands can upload their own profile. B1atv 07:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep How this band is non-notable is beyond me. How this album is non-notable is beyond me. And if info is hard to come by on the Internet, that absolutely cements the need for coverage on Knowledge (XXG). U-Mos 17:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Wizardman 12:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The Legacy (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. Wizardman 12:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Lord of Light (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. -- Anonymous Dissident 02:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The Pilgrim (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. -- Anonymous Dissident 10:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Brighter than a Thousand Suns (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. Wizardman 12:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

For the Greater Good of God (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. I'm going to leave a redirect to A Matter of Life and Death (album). Neil ム 13:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

These Colours Don't Run (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Strong keep - The articles contain additional information on songs from a notable album by a notable band. The additional information that would be to long if it was added to the albums page. The fact that they aren't singles does not mean they are not notable and should not have articles. We have an article for pretty much every single Metallica song because they are well known and there is enough information to have an article for each individual song, the same would be true of Iron Maiden.--E tac 17:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, unless reliable sources are provided. Yes, adding this information to the album article would swell it to an unmanagable size, but is the information completely relevent? Are these songs independently notable? Have there been reliable sources written about them? Adding information about every shop in Barrow in Furness (an article I am working on passively at the moment) would swell it- does that mean that every shop should have an article? No, not unless the shops have notability of their own. And, as ever, the fact other songs have articles is irrelevent. You don't like it? Nominate them. J Milburn 19:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
When you cite WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS you should bother to explain why these articles are "crap". Yes the information is relevant, if it wasn't then multiple editors wouldn't have taken the time to find it and choose to create articles about it on wikipedia. I like the Metallica song articles because they are informative to anyone wishing to find out more about the songs, there meanings, etc... so why would I nominate them? You seem to be the one with the problem so why don't you nomminate them. Also I regret to inform this to you but heavy metal music is not about having hit singles, and the bands don't just make albums with a bunch of filler crap and 1 or 2 "notable" songs. Many songs that are not singles are very popular amongst fans and they would definately want to read about them. Rather than quoting policy like a parrot use some logic and ask yourself if this article would help to more deeply inform someone who is interested in it's subject and if many people would want to read about it.--E tac 19:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
E tac, I don't know if you remember, but we have clashed before over metal related articles. And, if you take a look at my 'prize' articles, you will note I write about metal bands far, far less notable than Iron Maiden, so yes, I understand that metal is not about top ten hits. I cite WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS because one of your arguments IS that other 'crap' exists, in the form of the Metallica songs. Now, I may have a problem with those articles, but, quite frankly, that is irrelevent, let us judge this article on its own merits. I explained why these articles are 'crap', as did the nominator. There does not appear to be any notability, and you are yet to provide any evidence of whether there is, whether or not metal is about achievements and success. How can we write an article without sources? As for your 'multiple editors' argument- that's just irrelevent. If multiple editors write about something, it does not change the fact that it doesn't meet our policies. Please bear in mind when talking to editors that we also know what we are talking about- I know both about Knowledge (XXG) policies, and about the heavy metal scene and music, so please try not to be condescending. A final point- these songs (or some of them) may be notable. However, without sources to verify this, there is no way we should have articles on them, otherwise they will be based entirely upon original research. J Milburn 23:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
No I didn't say what you are saying I said. I never said the Metallica song articles are crap. I said. "they are informative to anyone wishing to find out more about the songs, there meanings, etc...". Not that they are crap. I think they should be on wikipedia and fro similar reasons I think these should be as well. If you think the Metallica articles are crap then nominate them, I don't and I don't think these are either. Then you claim there are no sources and everything is original research, the fact that each of the individual songs were discussed in a major music magazine and that is sourced asserts notability. Have you even looked at the articles?--E tac 15:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
This particular song has a passing mention in an interview, (a primary source) yes, I took that into account- that does not assert notability. As for the other point- when I cite the essay regarding the 'other crap exists' article, I am not calling any article crap, nor am I suggesting that you are doing so. I am referring to your 'there are other articles like this' argument, which is invalid. We are not discussing those other articles, we are discussing this one. J Milburn 15:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
So we are not allowed to discuss similar articles in order to show an articles usefulness?--E tac 16:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
(ec) Not in the way you are doing so. The fact that there are other, similar articles is of no real relevence, because, of course, you will then have to justify why they should be kept. In some cases, comparing to others is fine- comparing to The Beatles discography, a good article, or Category:Discographies to demonstrate that a discography article is not an 'indiscriminate, usless list', for instance. However, as you have no doubt noticed, many Metallica songs have now been nominated for deletion too. Take a read of the essay I linked to in the first place- the point of the essay is to save people such as myself from explaining why what you are saying is not as relevent as it may at first sound. No, it's not policy, but neither are my arguments, and I should hope you don't ignore them. The essay speaks sense, and is definately worth a read. J Milburn 16:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Well I see all the Metallica song articles have now been tagged as well. Hey I have an idea why don't we just delete all the valid heavy metal information of wikipedia since it isn't important enough to have an article.--E tac 16:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
As the lack of sources is demonstrating, this is not relevent information. Relevent information has reliable sources discussing it. J Milburn 16:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Not relevant to who? --E tac 16:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
To Knowledge (XXG). And don't scream 'oh, that's because Knowledge (XXG) hates metal'- how on Earth do you expect us to write articles on subjects without sources? I know of some excellent articles on heavy metal songs- "Angel of Death" and "Enter Sandman" spring to mind, but without substantial sources, we just can't write an article. J Milburn 18:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
So what makes Angel of Death so relevant? Because it is about a nazi death doctor and they play it live? Just because the article is of higher quality does not make the subject any more notable. Tell me why Angel of Death is more notable then this or any of the other songs on this album.--E tac 19:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Because there have been reliable sources written about it? J Milburn 21:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Where? It isn't the main focus of nearly everything that is referenced on it's page but rather is a "passing mention in an interview" or review.--E tac 05:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
If that's the case, then you're welcome to nominate it for deletion. Given, however, that it's a featured article, I'm willing to bet that it isn't the case. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Well rather than making bets and other wild accusations you should look into it for yourelf.--E tac 07:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I can assure you that I will in due time. I'm currently focusing my efforts on the songs I've listed at AfD right now, but I'll investigate everything on that album at some point. Again, nobody's stopping you from nominating it for deletion if you don't feel that the sources establish notability. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 08:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Why would I want to nominate an article for a song by a notable artist on a notable album that by the way as you pointed out is also a featured article and provides the reader with exactly what they are looking for which would be more information on the song. Also if that article meets the criteria for being a featured article, many of these Metallica and Maiden song articles are at least worthy of being on wikipedia right?--E tac 08:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't follow your reasoning there at all. Firstly, you've been arguing that the article on "Angel of Death" isn't adequately sourced and could therefore be nominated for deletion. I've responded that such a nomination would be unlikely to succeed, given that it is a featured article (and therefore has been looked at by any number of editors in order to establish that it is adequately sourced). I've also said that, in due time, I'll investigate the articles on Slayer's albums and see if there are non-notable songs which have articles. I'm just not doing that right at the moment. However, if you're complaining that the sources are only passing mentions, that suggests that perhaps it isn't notable, and I won't mind a bit if anyone nominates a non-notable song which I was going to nominate someway down the track. In relation to the second part of your comment, that doesn't follow at all. "Angel of Death" is a featured article because there are sources demonstrating its notability. Why that means that any other article about a song by Slayer, Metallica, Iron Maiden or the band my friends are in should stay is beyond me. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 08:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not saying that at all. I believe it is sourced fine, although the song is not the focus of the sites being sourced and just briefly mentioned which you basically said doesn't account for much of anything on wikipedia.--E tac 08:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. In that case, are you prepared to wait for me to investigate that (and the rest of Slayer's discography) in a few weeks? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 08:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
If I'm not will you refrain from doing so?--E tac 08:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Will I refrain from investigating the articles on Slayer's songs and proposing deletion of non-notable songs? No, I won't refrain from doing that. Why should non-notable subjects have articles? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 08:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Well then why did you ask me if I am prepared?--E tac 09:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Because you were making a big thing of the sources on that article. What I was saying was that I'll look into it later, and I was wondering whether perhaps that might bring the discussion here back to the article at hand. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Well this article currently has no sources but I have read one of them and heard similar stuff to the other magazine article. I don't know how to properley source something like that though but I am sure they are legit.--E tac 09:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
If the sources are available online, just give me the link on my Talk page and I'll set up the citation template, so that you can use it on future articles. There are citation templates for offline sources too, but obviously online ones are easier to double-check.

BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

(Deliberate killing of indentation, which was getting ridiculous) E tac, should you provide sources for this article, that would only change my mind for this article. You will have to prove that each song is independently notable. J Milburn 16:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I have added some more to The Longest Day (song) although the Kerrang! interview image which is the same as the one this arrticle refers to is no longer on that URL.--E tac 19:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete because it didn't chart too. Fee Fi Foe Fum 05:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This song was mainly written as concerns the Ozzfest controversy, and there have been reliable sources who have written about it. The problem is that the majority of Metal editors don't source their articles. LuciferMorgan 17:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. This article cites direct quotes from both Kerrang! magazine and Rhythm Magazine. Where is the proof of these quotes? How would I, as a first-time reader of this article, be able to verify these sources? In addition to mentioning these Magazine entries, they need to be cited using a cite template or reference template, with all pertinent information made available; i.e. publication date, page #, url if possible, etc. ♫ Cricket02 02:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree. LuciferMorgan 17:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The Kerrang! bit can be proved by looking at this. LuciferMorgan 17:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete (3-1). Stifle (talk) 16:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The Longest Day (song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

De-prod'ed without any comment. I'd previously added the Prod template. This is an album track from a notable album by a highly notable band. However, as we know, notability is not inherited and I don't see anything much establishing notability here. There are a number of these tracks, and I'm listing each one at AfD so that they can be discussed on their own merits, rather than risking a trainwreck. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

G.o.d jewels (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable. Fails WP:MUSIC. Rocket000 07:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete - only possible claim to notability is the statement: "...G.o.D. Jewels released “Mirror” to Chicago’s Power 92.3, the most prominent hip-hop and r&b station in the city. It was played regularly during the “Power Hour”.", which may satisfy criteria 11 for musicians in WP:MUSIC. It's quite flimsy without references to back it up though. How many times per week is it played? Is Power 92.3 a major network? Marasmusine 08:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete, since I think the spirit of WP:MUSIC would probably exclude this. --Gwern (contribs) 06:04 23 September 2007 (GMT)
  • Speedy delete per nom.--Tasc0 00:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was keep (non admin). Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) 04:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The Luchagors (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Not notable. Fails WP:MUSIC. Rocket000 06:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep, unless the band is found to be non notable. Official studio album from a band which seems to be notable, therefore notable. J Milburn 14:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge There is no reason to make a separate page for the album when the main band page is so small. Anyone who wants the album will find the reference on the band site. MarkBul 17:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: There really is no precedent for this. It's like (to use an analogy very similar to one I used a few seconds ago) merging an article about a notable shop into the stub about the village the shop is in. Albums have notability independent of the band they are from- there is a lot of relevent information you can put in an article about the album which would be fluff if put into the article about the band. J Milburn 19:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Redirect to Mahram. Stifle (talk) 15:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ghayr mahram (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Dictionary definition based on the concept of mahram. I think voting redirect would be a find solution, but deletion isn't a bad one, either. gren グレン 06:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The Fragments (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Promotional stub on minor exhibition. Good cause, poor prospect for establishing notability. ˉˉ╦╩ 05:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Delete — Caknuck 20:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Edward Eways (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Fails WP:BIO; only google reference is for a community award - prod removed NeilN 05:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this community figure might just have enough to meet the requirments. The work is impressive and for a decade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk) 18:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

No matter what good causes this person has supported, to have a Knowledge (XXG) entry he must meet Knowledge (XXG):Notability (people). He doesn't. Hut 8.5 19:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a truly creative person who stands for community and giving back to the people. Although we understand Knowledge (XXG) rules, sometimes there is a talent that should be supported. More people should do as much for these types of causes, which is bigger than all of us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanson102 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Look at the work and think about how many people have been helped through it. This person has not only supported his community but uses sports and the arts to push positivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanson102 (talk • contribs)

  • I have lived in the Westchester county area for more then twenty years. I have followed Mr Eways career, there has never been a person who has brought a flair to the community as he has. Who knows what history will say about his work but it can not be denied that it is good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk • contribs)

DO NOT DELETE. Mr Eways has a large following in Port Chester. He has brought energy and inspiration to the Port Chester Village. Eways is not hollywood or political. He is a true role model. Do not delete —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk) 20:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC) DO NO DELETE Eways is one of the most talked about people in Westchester. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk) 21:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC) OUR GROUP FEELS THAT EWAYS IS A NOTABLE RESIDENT. DO NOT DELETE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk • contribs) Eways has become a local star in Port Chester over the last few years. Although at times he can be an enigma. When he is creating events and programs for the community he stands alone in a class by himself, Group of 75.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk • contribs) I have never met Ed Eways but I have attended some of his events in the 90's. I still read about him in the papers and see him on tv. I remember when I first saw Eways at one of his events I thoughthere is a young brash guy who is more of a show then a role model. The more I learned about Eways over the years I noticed he had such a desire to make a difference. I saw a fire in his eye's that is hard to explain. It was this non stop machine that would not quit. There are few people that have this kind of drive. There have been many talks about certain talents that has come out of our community, Eways has been brought up many times within are group and other community groups. He stands the test of time and should have his place in history Group 75 also joined with City Club of Westchester. I never went to any of Eways events but I have been a fan of his work. I did see him speak at a youth show in 2000. I felt here is someone that will make some noise, did he ever. Group 75 proud to be at 87 members. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk) 22:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

DO NOT DELETE The sources do not fall short. This man they call Eways has inspired a generation of youth in the Port Chester community Group 75. I heard about Ed Eways and his works for years in Port Chester and Rye Brook. Athough in the 90's it was the Eways era. Now I would say it is the post Eways era. Not as active as he once was,still brings alot of style and a powerful presence in Port Chester. He has done amazing work for organizations and the youth. Eways is a notable person Generation x 101 we are at 44 members. Look we are on all these different computers talking about Ed Eways. That has to tell you something about this guy. What it tells me is that he has left a mark on us and a town. I know Eways started in NYC as a model and improve guy. Came back to his home town and began creating programs for the school district. At 21 this guy wins a Westchester County Youth award. Then gets two community service awards. I think he is the only one to get two not sure. Anyway Eways is a figure and his name and legacy has grown to symbol status. Larger then life type person in his town. I will make this statement I am not going to say I am a big Ed Eways fan. I have approached him in the past at some of his events and tried to get an interveiw. He always seemed to busy. With that said I am very impressed with what this guy has done since 1994 till now. Very gifted and has a real passion to make a positive impact on his town. I would say he needs to be on here Do not Delete Mpod newsletter serving Westchester.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.79.227 (talk) 19:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete.--Kubigula (talk) 03:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Directional microphone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Procedural nomination. Wrongly tagged as nonsense speedy. No personal opinion on the matter. Pascal.Tesson 05:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the definition is incorrect but in any case, this is not material for wiktionary. Pascal.Tesson 05:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not nonsense but clearly incorrect. Except for "omni directional" microphones all microphones have directional characteristics. There is nothing to save here for a future article called Directionality (microphone) - Peripitus (Talk) 13:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep — If the definition is invalid, there sure are a lot of sites using the term: 252,000 ghits, including commercial sales, technical sites and a patent. Whether it makes sense to merge this with microphone is another matter. I think there's enough material available to produce a worthy article. — RJH (talk) 18:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Directionality is already discussed in the Microphone article. In practice, all microphones are directional (even those described as "omni" have subtle directional characteristics). The term "directional" does seem to be used in some places to describe mic setups with an intentionally extreme directional character (see Siemens talking about their hearing-aid technology, or here for the term being used to market shotgun mics), but this article is more specific than that. Delete it with no prejudice against recreation as a fork from Microphone should this useage ever attract significant coverage there. Thomjakobsen 18:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete with no barrier to future creation of a valid article about this important topic. This article reads like pure fiction or misunderstanding of technology. Directional microphones have been around for many decades and are very important but do not work as described in this incorrect and unreferenced article. Google hits are completely uninformitive as to the desirability of keeping this article, since they do not disclose websites which have a definition consistent with the mistaken one given here. Edison 03:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Edison, perhaps it might be simplest just to replace the text with a correct stub here and now? Then we'd have a start on article & give at least a little correct information. DGG (talk) 04:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Strong Redirect: To Microphone array as per 'before you AfD' instructions page. (The nonsense bit was added by 87.160.246.155 as their one and only edit.) In the first world war it was used to locate long range enemy guns. Phased array systems are forever gaining importance. A redirect will help to readers who are uncertain of the correct terms to enter in the search box. High performance radar have used the same principle for many years as have Radio Hams. On page three of this PDF is some mathematical representation's which might enhance the article which has -what I think- is the more descriptive name. After I leave this, I shall add the PDF link to Microphone arrays -as it lacks any references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aspro (talk • contribs) 17:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
True. Having had enough time to look through the other articles I agree that this collective term would be a bad way to create a sub category, as it is based on 'use' rather than 'principle of operation' and thus duplicates main article on microphones.--Aspro 19:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Delete, obvious violation of WP:NOT#NEWS — Caknuck 20:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Jack Venice (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

WP:BLP. Article based on (very) recent allegations of rape and burglary leveled against a non-notable adult film actor. ˉˉ╦╩ 05:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Keep per WP:SNOW. Non-admin closure. Hersfold 15:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Faith (dog) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

A dog. I don't believe that the appearances on TV, even if they can be verified, establish notability for this canine. Its owner, Jude Stringfellow, is also the subject of a current AfD. Deor 05:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Wizardman 16:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Are We There Yet?: Tales from the Never-Ending Travels of WWE Superstars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Seemingly non notable book. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) 04:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete nn wrestling book, no assert of notability. Dannycali 03:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, award winning book with plenty of reliable sources. Will expand article to reflect these facts after this post. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 03:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment As I have said before, this above user stalks me in AFDs that I participate in, and votes opposite to spite me. Again, not every book related to wrestling needs their own article, just a rehash of an Amazon.com summary. There is a WWE Books page that properly lists the titles. Furthermore, the award you claimed the book won is not an award, the book was just mentioned on a reading list for teens. That is a trivial mention and shows no assertion of notability. The book never sold well, and does not deserve its own page. Dannycali 06:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: Please note, that Danny has a tendency to post after me in many AFDs apparently just to disagree with me. Consider, for example, my post on 06:35, 25 September 2007 followed by Danny's post on 03:30, 26 September 2007. He is in no position to make allegations against anyone. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment You are dead wrong, I do not post discussions on AFDs just to spite anyone, I know you do, but I do not. You are in no position to make allegations against anyone since you have been banned here previously for misconduct. How else would you have known about this discussion? You more than likely just looked at my contributions history and just posted a keep argument just to tinker around. You need to stay away from me and stop it with the stalking. People like you are what is wrong with WP. Dannycali 06:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Please do not edit other people's comments and please stop harassing me. You are distracting from the actual discussions. Thank you. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
          • Both of you are making unacceptable guesses about the other's motives. Please comment on the actions of other editors and not their motivations; motives are nearly impossible to assess in a text-based environment. I requested that you two avoid each other. If you're not going to do that, you need to participate civilly with other contributors on this project or not at all.--Chaser - T 19:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
            • Dear Chaser, if Danny comments on my posts in the future, should I just ignore him then? If you think that would work best, I'd be willing to give it a try. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
              • If either of you continues in this manner, I will block for a short time to prevent any further disruption. Ignoring assumptions of bad faith is often effective, but neither of you should be enduring comments like these from the other. It, of course, is simpler if you just avoid each other, but we haven't been able to do that so far.--Chaser - T 03:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, as non-notable Nikki311 16:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as non-notable. Also, WTF was this soap-opera above this? Dear Lord, The Hybrid 23:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep for having a minor award and several reviews. A pretty unimportant book, but it appears to meet the notability guidelines and we aren't running out of space.--Kubigula (talk) 03:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment You should have looked at things more closely. First, this book is not "award winning", it was put randomly on a reading list. Second, there are 3 reviews listed, but none of them are from mainstream WP:RS, they are just self-published web sources. And the other reference is for a library listing of ones that have the book. Your argument is total junk, especially the "WP isn't running out of space", sure, but we still need to set standards. Dannycali 04:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, that's the most obnoxious comment I've seen on AFD in a while. For what it's worth, the argument that you refer to as "especially" total junk is actually part of Knowledge (XXG) policy - WP:NOTPAPER. I also have to say that your comment makes your statement above ("People like you are what is wrong with WP") ironic, as this kind of pointless venom is really what is not needed at WP.--Kubigula (talk) 05:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete- I vote delete for every minor, two-bit wrestling book/personality, and this will eb no different, much like the ridiculous R.D.Reynolds, who was somehow kept.JJJ999 13:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Delete, very short article, no assertion of notability. -- lucasbfr 21:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sholem aquatics center (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Presumbably a public pool in a medium sized town in middle America. Unless it gets hit by a tornado, I cannot see it ever being notable. Fee Fi Foe Fum 04:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete and redirect. With no sourced content, merge is not viable. GRBerry 03:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Entil'Zha (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

An extremely minor term within the Babylon 5 universe. Of course, it is uncited and non-notable in the real world. It is another name for Valen, who in turn is Jeffrey Sinclair. Merging is pointless, since nobody will be typing in this term correctly. Fee Fi Foe Fum 04:00, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Merge and redirect: you underestimate the powers of the fan side. If you will not link, you will meet your destiny. Not a very strong vote, though, as I'm sure the B5 wiki already has an immense amount on the topic. Alba 00:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Fans don't need a redirect. Fee Fi Foe Fum 05:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Redirects are free. Someone could use it as a search term, or even link it from an article or meta-page. J Milburn 10:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
If it is deleted first, then a redirect made, I have no objection. I don't like the idea of the old page hanging around on the server forever. Fee Fi Foe Fum 06:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Even if deleted the text is still on the servr and accessible by admins. Though the Foundation doesn't promise to keep eternal backups, there is currently no way to remove things from the database except direct developer intervention. Eluchil404 00:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Chris Shearn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The producer of a minor program on a minor network. In googling, the only reference I found was his YES Network bio. Taking a look at the history, there has been a ton of libel against this person from one particular IP address. I don't see any reason to have this bio here. B 03:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Buninyong Urban Fire Brigade (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

A bunch of Australian fire brigades that were nominated for speedy based on non-notability (WP:CSD#A7) - I bring them to the community to decide their fate(s).

Carlossuarez46 03:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was Delete. Eluchil404 00:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Randy Harvey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

deleteNot Notable JJJ999 03:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • KEEP. A World Champion in a notable organization (Toastmasters International) deserves to have its own article. Satisfies WP:BIO as far as I can see. Truthanado 03:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The link is broken, so I'd obviously dispute it. 25,000? Prove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JJJ999 (talk • contribs) 04:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Rebuttal. Apparently Toastmasters revamped their web site. I found an appropriate link and changed the reference so the link is no longer broken. As for 25,000 participants, I couldn't find a reference for that number but it is understandable. If you sift through the Toastmasters web site, you'll find that the competition starts with each club and works its way up through local, area, regional and district competitions. Since our Wiki Toastmasters International article says there are 11,000 clubs, that would mean each club would have 2-3 contestants, which is plausible. I would be in favor of removing the 25,000 claim unless someone can find a verifiable source for it. As far as overall notability, I stand by my original statement - KEEP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthanado (talk • contribs) 19:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, award is non-notable (and the award title is disputed among three organizations). Harvey is one of just four persons listed in World Public Speaking Championship who has an article; all the others have claims to notability beyond the award. Unless notability can be attributed to independent sources, there isn't much here. --Dhartung | Talk 07:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. The only think notable about him is that he won the Toastmasters public speaking tournament. I don't think that alone is enough to make him notable enough for wikipedia. Dorange 00:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Redirect to Eragon (character). Any merger is left to editorial discretion. Eluchil404 00:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Zar'roc (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

The main sword in the Eragon books. Non-notable, no citations given. Tellingly, it is found only 10 times in the English Knowledge (XXG). Page is duplicative of other pages about Eragon; its loss will not cripple our understanding of the series. I make no assertion of fancruft; I argue that the page duplicates other fancruft. Since the sword changes owners in the series, merging is problematic. Fee Fi Foe Fum 03:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I will hold off on nominating other Eragon articles for deletion for a few days, since it looks like the Eragon WikiProject are looking into the matter. Fee Fi Foe Fum 03:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was speedily deleted. Template also deleted. Neil ム 11:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Just Like U (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

If the artist isn't notabl enough to have a page, then his album is not notable. Mbisanz 02:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

TfD submitted same day as this, pending with no votes to keep. Mbisanz 23:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Those supporting deletion make a strong argument that there is little that could properly be merged.--Kubigula (talk) 04:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Blood-Oath Celebration (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Retelling of the end of one of Paolini's Eragon books. Has no redeeming features at all; is non-notable, original research, spoiler, and uncited. Fee Fi Foe Fum 02:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Merging leaves the history. Don't you mean, delete and redirect? Fee Fi Foe Fum 06:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Why on earth would you want to delete the history? No, that's not what I mean at all - quite aside from considerations like people might one day decide differently than those commenting on the AfD (and said people would probably be quite interested in the history), if the content is merged back in and then the original history is deleted, you could possibly have GFDL problems. --Gwern (contribs) 18:53 23 September 2007 (GMT)


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The result was Delete--JForget 22:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Kyle Jacob Ellis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

fictional artist, information, person Caldorwards4 02:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 13:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Pal tackle box (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-neutral article on a non-notable tackle box (or company that produced them, hard to tell), no references. Would have put up for speedy under G11 if it weren't for the fact that these aren't made any more and this has been floating around since April. Hersfold 02:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was no consensus to delete, merge or redirect. Merging or redirecting can be pursued editorially. Daniel 04:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Rider War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Part of the backstory of the Eragon books. The page looks like OR to me, I cannot recall if Paolini called it the "pre-rider war." Non-notable, not even worthy of a redirect, in my opinion. Fee Fi Foe Fum 02:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Merging leaves the history. Don't you mean, delete and redirect? Fee Fi Foe Fum 06:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
See my comment on the other related AfD. Summary for those who don't want to track it down: I said what I meant. --Gwern (contribs) 18:54 23 September 2007 (GMT)


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The result was DELETE per discussion below. -GTBacchus 18:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Jeff Groteboer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

No sources for anything, short of Mobygames, and that's just a list of games he worked on, with his name somewhere in the credits listing pages for each game. Was PRODded, but prod was removed without reason. I was saddened when he died, but that's no reason for this page to be here. Drat (Talk) 02:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Move to 2-Nonenal. Espresso Addict 04:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Person Smell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

You have got to be kidding me. This isn't encyclopedic. It is complete nonsense. It probably qualifies for speedy, but this will do. Rjd0060 01:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep:Before you pull the trigger to kill it, read the article. A scientific basis (i.e. an abstract of a referenced article in a peer reviewed scientific journal) for this phenomenon reconginzed in pop culture is included. User:Smulthaup 09:02PM, Central Time, 22-Sep-2007
  • Delete If only because it could be re-created under an article about Old Age or Odors. Mbisanz 02:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Move to 2-Nonenal and cleanup. Strangely enough, this article does actually have useful encyclopedic content despite the fact it's currently under a completely unencyclopedic title. It'll need a bit of re-organizing to meet chemical article standards, but it does have potential, and as Smulthaup pointed out, there is a verifiable scientific basis to the whole thing. I saw this in recent changes and had the same reaction Rjd0060 had, but after reading it, this probably doesn't need to be deleted. Hersfold 02:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I originally started to include the content under palmitoleic acid and vaccenic acid. I also considered it under 2-Nonenal but because it touches on so many chemical topics it needed its own page for ease of reference. User:Smulthaup 09:48PM, Central Time, 22-Sep-2007 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 02:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. While the article doesn't exactly, uh, "stink," it's slight and unencyclopedic. Qworty 03:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Not notable or soundly based yet. All based on one single unconfirmed scientific paper, published in 2001 and cited 11 times only since then, according to Web of Science--most of them about technical analysis & not directly relevant. Two are, "The scent of age" by Osada K, et al: PROCEEDINGS OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY OF LONDON SERIES B-BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES 270 (1518): 929-933 MAY 7 2003, which showed that doesnt work that way in mice, and "Olfaction and identification of unrelated individuals: Examination of the mysteries of human odor recognition" by Olsson SB et al, JOURNAL OF CHEMICAL ECOLOGY 32 (8): 1635-1645 AUG 2006, a fascinating more general paper. I've put the abstract of both papers on User:DGG/smell. Maybe turn it into an article on human odor recognition, since I've gotten this far. DGG (talk) 03:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The scientific journal article referenced in the Knowledge (XXG) article is itself confirmation of prior work. The journal article itself references Nazzaro-Porro M, Passi S, Boniforti L, Belsito F: Effect of aging on fatty acids in skin surface lipids. J Invest Dermatol 73:112 to 117, 1979 User:Smulthaup (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Move the encyclopedic content to 2-Nonenal, and I already got rid of the "in popular culture" section. The scientific, encyclopedic content relates to the chemical, but the "in popular culture" references in "The Simpsons" and "The Colbert Report" don't say a thing about 2-nonenal. --Elkman 04:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)\
  • keep and clean-up- JJJ999 07:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC), it's not unsalvageable, has some scientific basis
  • Move to 2-Nonenal, allow some mention of the "old people smell" claim as it's sourceable, but the scientific basis is weak for attributing the entirety of this meme to one particular hormone. --Dhartung | Talk 08:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. While at least some of this may be salvageable under a new article for 2-Nonenal, one has to remember that this is, in part, a 'translation error' and a 'cultural insensitivity.' That is, what the article is saying is so politically incorrect, it wouldn't be said by most Westerners. However, we often see less-than-perfect terminology when translating from other languages.Ryoung122 09:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Move (with the redirect that follows) to 2-Nonenal, per Elkman. This is a legitimate topic, and one that persons are curious about... it's not much different than explaining the role of eliminated platelets in giving something a brown color. Mandsford 15:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Just reading the article name made me laugh. An encyclopaedia shouldn't do that! Perhaps move. Operating 23:09, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Move to 2-Nonenal. The remaining section would be fine for a chemical article, and could be cleaned up w/ the standard chemical information templates. Bfigura 23:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. The article starts: Old Person Smell is a meme found in pop culture. Yawn. As for any substance to the notion, follow User:DGG. -- Hoary 02:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete As an "old man" I must say this is a highly offensive title, akin to "Jew smell" or "Negro smell" and has only one possibly reliable source. It fails WP:V and WP:N. Edison 03:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
incidentally, this is about the feeblest attempt at a pop culture section I have yet to see. DGG (talk) 04:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

New Classical (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This stub is entirely original research and obviously cites no sources, thus automatically fails WP:OR and WP:V. --Leon Sword 01:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Mr.Z-man 04:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Avila (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

procedural nomination Article was tagged for WP:PROD deletion despite having previously survived a trip to AFD. PROD-nominator states: "Non-notable - Fails WP:BIO". (version at time of AFD) User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletions. —User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Most of the information here is already found in the article for the show. He's since been surpassed as highest-winning game show contestant and so, doesn't merit a standalone article.--Sethacus 02:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. I agree with Sethacus. It's enough to have him listed in the other article. The long narrative of the questions he answered is not really notable. Qworty 03:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per the above, non-notable. Hersfold 03:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Vanity bio. Keb25 15:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment & request for input Some of the delete commentary above reads more as a 'merge' suggestion, and I agree with that outcome. A more general question about persons who are 'top winners' in game shows ... should these people ever have stand-alone articles? I'm thinking about the distinction between someone who wins an annual competition (such as a golf tournament) vs. someone who is transiently the top achiever in an area (such as Avila or a sports record holder - maybe longest javelin thrower or person with the most homeruns in a season <= that last added as a strawman as I am sure folks would make a distinction between these two sports examples). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 19:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment Interesting question. We do have standalones for Ken Jennings and Brad Rutter, though I am a little leery about the lack of sourcing on the Rutter. I think we should take a look at whether or not each gained enough notability to satisfy. Jennings, who became a pop culture phenomenon after his Jeopardy performance, certainly did, as did, to a lesser extent, Rutter, who overtook Jennings to become the top winner. His total,though, if I remember, was cumulative, adding his regular performance to his winnings in the Tournament of Champions.
breaking comment continuity I realize after the fact that my comment is reminiscent of arguments based on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, and I do agree with the goal of judging each article on its own merits rather than on the merits of an article class. Thanks for keeping to this goal by advising "look at whether or not each gained enough notability to satisfy." To rephrase slightly my question ... should being a transient Champion be the basis for (permanent) notability on its own. This tends to be a valid criterion of notability for sports, but appears to not be an accepted criterion for "gamers" (looking at the broad swath of games) except perhaps for chess. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
replying here for continuity On its own, I don't believe so, unless there were some notability to it, a la Jennings and Rutter. As far as being the top moneymaker in a game, I don't think so, because anyone can come along at any time and break the record. I was looking at American game show winnings records this morning. If you'll allow me to indulge in OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, there are 10 people there who have articles. One was a Press Your Luck winner who gained notoriety after it was discovered he gamed the system by memorizing the board. Another is Charles Van Doren. Another is a Tic Tac Dough winner, whose records have almost all been smashed by Jennings. We also have an article on Curtis Warren, a Greed champion who held the top moneymaking record...for 4 days. So, unless it's a notable accomplishment, like a "first"--John Carpenter, the first million-dollar winning game show contestant, springs to mind--then I would say we shouldn't base notability on something like transiency in the fast-paced world of game show. I'm frankly surprised we don't have an article on the first female million-dollar winner. Having said that, the interesting thing is Ken Jennings, with all the publicity surrounding him, wasn't even a first. There was a guy before him who won over 2 million on Jeopardy. With sports and with chess, I would say it's different, because there's a semi-permanency to it. If you win, say, the Master's, that's yours. Your name is in the books as having won that tournament for that year. Same holds true for being a Grandmaster of chess.--Sethacus 16:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

If the article were merged, where to? As I stated previously, the Greed article already has this information. It is possible to redirect to the Greed article,though I doubt many people are going to come looking for Daniel Avila here. I note one of the other top winners on Greed had an article which did not survive Afd. I think reliable sourcing should be the benchmark.--Sethacus 04:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Further comment I apologize. It's Ed Toutant, a Who Wants to be a Millionaire? contestant whose article was deleted.--Sethacus 04:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete Mr.Z-man 04:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Steven Cook (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD) Search ()

I speedy deleted the article as being a CSD G12 blatant copyright infringement of AbsoluteArts.com. A disputed as to whether it was a copyvio caused the article to be restored by another admin. While that issue is being resolved, AfD seems appropriate since Steven Cook has not received enough coverage in reliable sources that are independent of Steven Cook to develop an attributable article on the topic. -- Jreferee T/C 01:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • comment I just commented on the talk page earlier saying this. I don't think he's noteable.Merkinsmum 01:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Is there some ulterior motivation here? The copyright thing was obviously frivolous because even a glance at the website in question makes it perfectly clear that the wikipedia article is not a copy. It seems as though we are just looking for an excuse to delete. What is the real motivation? -- Lilwik 02:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I certainly never said that, and I do not agree with that. I honestly don't know anything about Steven Cook, but I know this sudden push to try to get this article deleted by any means possible is wrong. A good editor wants to improve articles, not hold grudges against articles. This article should be marked and considered as a stub and it should be given time to collect more material in the natural course of editing. It is far too young to delete for lack of content. (And it certainly shouldn't be deleted while the article itself is hidden because of a copyright issue. One thing at a time, please.) -- Lilwik 18:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep (for now anyway) I can't see the logic of this: "While that issue is being resolved, AfD seems appropriate" - we are discussing it and trying to resolve the issues as a number of editors who have commented don't even think the current version is a copyright violation. Until we address that, and work on improving the article following suggestions made I'm unsure how we can even start the ball rolling on an AfD. (Emperor 02:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC))
  • It will take time to develop the material for an article like this. It doesn't have many editors, but that doesn't mean that it is worthless. -- Lilwik 18:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Uh, the entire article appears to have been deleted. Qworty 03:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletions. —David Eppstein 06:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • comment well the version a few versions back which I tagged, looked to contain a lot of copyvio to me, and I found it solely because I randomly came across an article by one of the editors involved about Mee (musician), which was a complete copyvio. Regardless of whether a copyvio is there, I think he is not mentioned in reliable sources much. None of the editors supporting his article remaining, have mentioned any sources here. If you think he's had large pieces written solely about him in mainstream media, please mention them here or he will be deleted as non-noteable. This is what we are discussing here in this AfD, not the copyvio issue. No I don't have an ulterior motive, if you look you can see I haven't pushed for deletion in this AfD, merely commented that I'm not sure he's noteable. I'm open to you showing me the sources- convince us!:) Or aren't there any reliable sources?Merkinsmum 16:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Steven Cook is not a very famous person to the general public. I have certainly never heard of him until now, and that means that this article doesn't have a lot of editors, but it doesn't mean that he isn't important and well known by people with specialized knowledge. We are supposed to be a place where people can learn things that they don't already know. If you delete everything that you've never heard of, then no one will learn more than you. This article will take a while to develop because it is more specialized than some, but I'm okay with that. -- Lilwik 18:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Well regardless of whether you disagreed with the copyright decision, matters not. I don't think it was frivolous, the earlier version I marked for copyright had almost all of its content from that other site. This AfD is about notability. It's not a matter of whether we personally have heard of him, lots of things known only to those with specialised knowledge get deleted, because they belong on wikis specifically for that interest, such as one for graphic art or whatever the artist's speciality. Articles on paganism, alt med, all sorts of subjects, get their articles deleted because they just haven't had large enough mentions in mainstream or reliable for that interest sources. If he has been in one of the foremost art review papers or something, that might count. You still haven't shown us the sources.:) Suggests they are flimsy.:)Merkinsmum 19:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I got the copyvio wrong, I think I was going on an earlier version by one of the editors, who had already had one article deleted as being completely nicked from another site, with no other content. A lot of the article seemed a bit like other stuff online though. Anyway, I deeply doubt he's noteable or meeting the criteria to have an article on wikipedia. Sources please.:)Merkinsmum 20:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Don't look to me to produce sources. I've never even said that they exist. I don't know if they exist or not. I don't know anything about Steven Cook but what's in the article and I don't really care. I just think that it's too early for an AFD. -- Lilwik 21:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed - we are still two issues behind here - the copyright violation speedy deletion seems to now be accepted as being incorrect - jumping to an AfD while we are discussing this and we are discussing improving the entry. The only way forward is to scrap this AfD and give us a month - see what can be done. Although this is pretty solid a review by Warren Ellis is a big deal. There is no reason we have to rush to delete this and since the initial premise for the deletion seems rocky I think we should take a step back and try and sort this out first. (Emperor 21:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC))


  • Oh and, all the large block quotes in exctly the order given, that were in the article at one point, are copied directly from http://www.alternity.co.uk/hype.html so it has been lifted from various sources. That is all of the article except the intro paragraph is from this source, and some sentences of the intro paragraph are from the source above. Nice job!Merkinsmum 00:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah I just spotted you've linked to that one, but it is 250 words of it, plus it even calls itself 'hype'. Oh and I've just noticed that page is written by himself to sell himself. "all site content © steven cook 2005 except where indicated." http://www.alternity.co.uk/contents.html. So 3/4 of the article consists of his own 'hype'. No bad reviews shown or anything for NPOVMerkinsmum 00:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
You're speaking as if quotes were not supposed to be given word-for-word as the source gave them. Were you expecting the quotes to be original material? It's quoted because someone else said it. I have no idea who Roy Voss is, but even I knew that the Roy Voss quote was lifted from words that Roy Voss wrote. What is your point? -- Lilwik 00:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes. They are clearly quotes and show the source of the quote - I am unsure how that counts as copyright violation or we wouldn't be able to quote anything (such things clearly fall under fair use). As has been discussed on the talk page it isn't the kind of format we really want and they'd need trimming down or removing and if they are to be used them it should be as part of a larger "reception" section. Note that hype section contains a lot more reviews and feedback from other notable sources (although I'd not use anything that isn't sourced - the Grant Morrison quote could easily be the result of him being asked for a marketable quote, for example). (Emperor 01:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC))
Why do people keep saying that there is a copyright issue? Whose copyright is this supposed to be violating? I mean, even in a borderline case there must be a supposed victim, right? Can anyone point to any copied text? -- Lilwik 00:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There are about 250 words from the 'hype' page. Knowledge (XXG) rarely uses 'fair use'justification any more, the criteria for it here are very strict, and it wouldn't justify quotes of that length. Also pretty redundant as from the author's own page. I could probably collect 'lovely things people have said about me'. Where are the negative quotes to provide a Neutral Point of View an article here is supposed to have? There are many victims mainly the reader and the encyclopedia itself, as we are not providing them with anything they couldn't read on the other site, so as such an article here is redundant (or free advertising?) It reflects on peoples opinion of Knowledge (XXG) if we simply cut and paste. It says a lot that you admit Steven Cook is not a victim of having his copyrighted work put here. It is clearly not under the GFDL, which all content here should be, as he put a copyright stamp on it. Is one of the authors of this article, him? Plus- it's not about whether there's a 'victim'- it's a legal requirement I think, or at least a requirement for wikipedia.Merkinsmum 02:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't look for a victim because of any legal requirements, I just wanted to know who everyone thought the victim was, because until now I had no idea. I admit that Steven Cook is not a victim because none of his words are used in the article. Are you saying that he is a victim? Can you cite the words that belong to Steven Cook that we are using in the article? -- Lilwik 03:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Ok, I'm going for delete as no Knowledge (XXG):Reliable_sources are being provided. There's no evil crusade/grudge against this article, to say there is shows a lack of Knowledge (XXG):Assume_good_faith. It's just that as other editors have said, this is an article with little notability, and other editors saw some copyright issues, and as good editors we try and keep wikipedia free of articles like that, and advertising. We've never even heard of Steven Cook before, well I hadn't, so it's not personal and I have no sinister reason for wanting his article gone.Merkinsmum 02:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
As to the article being young and should be given time to collect content, it's been here almost 11 months.Merkinsmum 02:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
That's not so old for this sort of article. Of course, if this were an article about a popular TV show then that would be ancient, but you've got to give articles about real people more time. Articles only grow as interested editors discover them and if you delete real world articles just for being in the development stage then wikipedia will end up so full of TV content and little else that it'll be like TV Guide. I say we should delete the quotes and mark the article as a stub, then wait a few months to see if anything happens, then AFD if still appropriate. -- Lilwik 03:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep--JForget 22:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The Itchy & Scratchy Show (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

After a Google search, there are lots of hits. However, there aren't any that make this notable. It has sources, but they're all Simpsons Episodes or DVD sets. These verify the information, but does not make the subject notable. This is just Simpsons cruft. — i  01:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

    • Note: I am in the process of adding refs from IGN and Vanity Fair. That counts as two refs from independant sources and thus every guideline is satisfied. -- Scorpion 02:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per Scorpion. As the article correctly notes, this is the "show within a show" that is a part of each episode of The Simpsons. Besides being a bizarre parody of Tom and Jerry, it's always been a clever satire of gratuitous violence in film and television. Mandsford 02:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep A show-within-a-show that's more notable than most actual sitcoms. Real-world-info is easily available, and there's plenty of third-party analysis. . I'm very confident I could make this a FA someday. Zagalejo^^^ 02:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - I'm sure that some citations exist showing its impact in the real world. There are so many weak articles on fictional subjects (see the ones I've nominated above) that we don't need to attempt to delete pages on truly popular subjects. Fee Fi Foe Fum 03:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep A very notable part of the show, I see no reason at all as to why anyone should even think about deleting it. As for characters, I think the ones that are left are all notable enough and pass any sort of guidlines.Rhino131 03:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. If any show deserves that many character sub-articles, it's The Simpsons. To quote Neil Steinberg:
There isn't room in 10 columns to discuss the delights of the Simpsons. So I will limit myself to one observation, based on an ad for the new movie, which opens Friday. The ad shows the residents of Springfield lined up to buy tickets. There are 48 characters behind Homer, and if I couldn't name every single one, I could name most and knew the personalities of the rest.
That's astounding. Most novels fail to offer up even one strong, memorable character, never mind 49. There aren't that many multi-layered, deeply nuanced worlds in literature -- Proust's Combray, Faulkner's Yoknapatawpha County. Springfield, wherever it may be, is surely one of them. (Chicago Sun-Times. July 23, 2007. p. 20.) Zagalejo^^^ 03:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Keep - Per Rhino131 Reginmund 03:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was keep Mr.Z-man 04:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Maximus Inc. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Tagged since April 2007 for sources and references, this minor stub article fails notability criteria Trident13 14:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep. This desperately needs sourcing and expanding, but I'm pretty sure it qualifies as notable, given how many governments use their services to manage things like child support. Pinball22 14:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Keep. A lot of governments use a lot of different companies for a lot of different things. It does not make this company noteworthy. Appers to pass WP:N although the article still needs a lot of work. --BlindEagle 16:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Here's a few references that make me think it's probably notable... here's an article from BusinessWeek from 1999 saying "Maximus runs welfare-to-work programs for nearly a dozen states, and manages child-care and Medicare programs for dozens of local governments. If Maximus were a state, it would have the 29th-largest social-services caseload of all the states in the U.S." and it's in the Washington Post's 125 biggest companies in the D.C. area for 2007. Also, this article talks about it settling a $30M Medicaid fraud suit against it in July of this year, but then here's an article about the state of New York awarding it a contract to fight Medicaid fraud just this month. Pinball22 19:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
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  • Keep, sources given above and found in Google News Archive indicate it passes WP:CORP and is even notable within its niche (although such things are transient by nature). This isn't a company that supplies the Pentagon with toilet paper, this is a consultancy that has privatization of public services as a major focus of its business, and as such is often connected to policy debates and blame/credit scenarios. --Dhartung | Talk 08:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • DeleteSpeedy Delete as I can't see how this one line entry warrants an encylopedic entry. --Gavin Collins 14:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment They are verifiable and reliable as you say, but they read like PR copy, and do not provide analysis or context, and fail to demonstrate notability. For a consultancy close to government, you would have thought there would be some secondary sources. They could be notable and keeping low profile, or they are just doing what they are paid to do.--Gavin Collins 11:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • They all mention problems the company has had and criticisms (especially the one about the lawsuit against the company), and I don't see how the Washington Post and Business Week could not be considered secondary sources, so they don't seem like PR pieces to me at all. Pinball22 14:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure I understand what you mean... are you saying that you agree the sources make it notable, but you want to delete the article anyway just because they haven't yet been added to the article? If so, that's not supposed to be how this works. If not, could you clarify what you do mean? Pinball22 15:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I would suggest that sources have to be added to the article to provide evidence of notability; but one or two sources will be insufficient if the article itself has no content. In my view this article probably could be a speedy deletion. --Gavin Collins 14:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd like to point out the article does assert notability (by claiming the US Government as a significant client, so it's not a speedy candidate. Asserting notability and establishing notability, however, are two different things. --UsaSatsui 14:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

*Delete unless we can get some of those yummy, reliable secondary sources into the article. Just having a government for a client isn't enough.

Reply - I have changed my nod to keep for now. One of your references is to a corporate description by the Washington Post. I really don't think that counts as they describe many, many different companies that are not worth noting here. However, the articles from Business Week and the other from the Washington Post are good references. --BlindEagle 18:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Great! The one that's a corporate description is included because the listing is as part of the Post 200, where they describe the biggest companies in the DC area. Maybe I should add the main listing part as well to make that clear? Pinball22 18:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're talking about improving the article, perhaps this should be done on the talk page. --BlindEagle 18:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep and cleanup (Non-administrator closing). --Tikiwont 12:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Zwiesel Kristallglas AG (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

I originally prodded this article for failing WP:CORP link. The prod was removed later link. Since then the article has been improved but it still fails WP:CORP. It does seem to be a good translation of the de:Zwiesel Kristallglas AG article on it, however. It was created by someone under the same name as the company. ÐeadΣyeДrrow (Talk|Contribs) 10:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I am also bundling these two duplicate articles on one of their products:

Schott zwiesel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Schott Zwiesel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

If the vote is to keep, these two same articles should be merged with the company's article and deleted.

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  • Keep - sources given above IMO enough to demonstrate notability of this in any case well-known company HeartofaDog (talk • contribs) 00:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - agree that the circumstances of creation might cause suspicion, but as has been mentioned this is an historic company that is undoubtedly significant. Obviously it needs to feel less like a translation from German, and could do with expansion of the Schott side of the business and the role in the Nazi war effort (one can understand why User:ZwieselKristall was less keen on these two aspects.....). Given how much Schott glassware is found in science labs, at least in Europe, it might be worth bringing this one to the attention of WP:CHEMISTRY and WP:MCB, they may well be able to expand it? FlagSteward 14:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I'm familiar with the Schott bottles I used as a chemist in the UK - they were the top-of-the-line in sample bottles. I've used hundreds. This is certainly a notable company, and the article does not read like an advert, it's pretty reasonable. Walkerma 03:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete while awaiting further information. Zweisel Kristalglas AG did not develop borosilicate glass, nor does it sell laboratory glassware . The company which chemists seem to be referring to is Schott AG, see corporate website. These seem to be distinct companies, although both seem to hold certain rights to the "Schott" trademark (see Otto Schott for the glass technologist). At the very least, the article need to be cleaned up to make clear what this company actually does! (it is obviously an important German glass manufacturer) There may well be a notable story to be told here, but for the moment the article doesn't tell it. Physchim62 (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Eluchil404 00:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

TAKUYA∞ (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

He might be notable, but if so, this article's problems are so great it should be deleted and re-created in acceptable form. Biruitorul 01:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Biruitorul. I took a stab at a re-write eliminating the unverified and inappropriate content. I come up with a single remaining sentence:
TAKUYA∞ is the stage name of Takuya Shimizu (清水 琢也), a singer and composer/programmer in the Japanese band 'UVERworld'.
but at least the facts in this statement have a 'reasonable' reference (Japanese Sony Music.com site). I also added a Japanese musician stub template and Japanese pop singer as category. I have no idea about this guy's notability but I believe this single sentence / stub is the only thing left of the original article after cleanup. If it still qualifies for deletion - that's OK with me too. Pugetbill 19:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, what we have now is certainly better than before. Biruitorul 22:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep — Caknuck 20:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Kancho (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

Non-notable, has no reliable sources at all. Belongs on urban dictionary, not here. Juanita Hodges 22:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

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The result was keep. John254 00:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

List of ethnic slurs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

While still sourced, it's a bunch of dictionary definitions and not really suited for Knowledge (XXG) Will 11:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete/Move to Wiktionary. No doubt some editors will want to keep this here 'because it's useful' but this information should be in Wiktionary (where properly sourced), not Knowledge (XXG). See WP:NOT#DICDEF.--Michig 11:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This page has seen this twice now, and I beleive it's useful (and no I'm not racist). Let's go over a few key points from the last two, that I agree with.
"...Fans of linguistics/etymology will probably agree. Some of these words are not even offensive/used any more("Tojo", "3/5er"), but the history of how and why they came into use is still important/interesting..." The point here is that it is useful.
"This list is a remarkable work, comprising over 1400 entries written since June 2003. Deleting them will do more harm than good, possibly creating hundreds of disgruntled vandals and sowing ill will throughout the world. It would also be deleting possibly the most comprehensive and up-to-date list of ethnic slurs available." Here the user is saying it's had quite a bit of work, and just like me we beleive the article is comprehensive.
"Dictionaries don't sort entries in this way." self explanitory, but I strongly agree. They don't look that much at all like this, anyone pick up any dictionary and look for a list of see here's with a few hundred words.
"Knowledge (XXG)'s list is an invaluable source of information, especially considering the regional nature of most epithets. Web readers should not be forced to troll the internet searching random, nefarious web sites in search of racial understanding." Wow how great, and I'm starting to wonder if just personal opinnion was involved in deleting along with political correctness. Yamakiri 14:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If one were to post the entire discussion, it would be a book. Mandsford 15:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep Per previous AfD noms. Nothing has really changed that justifies this list to be deleted now, while it was kept previously. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete/transwiki - still just a bunch of dictionary definitions. Well-sourced dictionary definitions are still dictionary definitions and Knowledge (XXG) is not a dictionary. Otto4711 17:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
    • And how is Knowledge (XXG) not a dictionary? There are a ton of articles on non-offensive regular words, punctuation, origin of names, and origin of letters in wikipedia.--Pilot expert 04:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. It promotes bigotry.Operating 19:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, suggest speedy keep per established precedent. Nothing has changed, and this has been repeatedly nominated and never deleted: well past time to accept the outcome and give it a rest. (The claim that it "promotes bigotry" is hard to fathom; do pages on anti-Semitism or anti-Americanism do the same?) - Smerdis of Tlön 19:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment to Mandsford and Smerdis: "Not again..." isn't a real reason to keep - plus, the last AFD was over twelve months ago (and yes, I was aware it was the fifth nomination). Will 21:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep even though WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Extremely offensive to the point of repulsive, but is notable, well-sourced, linked to other articles, and encyclopedic. Bearian 01:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. We are not a dictionary, slang guide, repository of trivia, et cetera. RFerreira 04:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Keep this article. It may be offensive to some people but it is very informative and educational.--Pilot expert 04:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Given that NOTCENSORED is basic to WP, consensus is not likely to ever change on this one. DGG (talk) 04:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Ethnic slurs are unfortunately notable, life impacting, and worthy of useful coverage in wp. Furthermore, 5th attempt at deletion is a waste of time. Policy hasn't drastically changed to justify another attempt. Horrorshowj 09:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Ethnic slurs do occur, and it's useful to be able to understand not just what group someone is insulting but the cultural context and implications of their insult. Simple definitions are for a dictionary, but the level of explanation here is encyclopedic. I would advise a strict WP:Attribution policy for individual entries on the page, though -- this article doesn't need insults that were used once in an obscure context, or that the author just made up. Inhumandecency 13:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Some of the contributors to this discussion might like to take a look at Knowledge (XXG):Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. You may also like to take a look at Wiktionary:Category:Ethnic slurs, which is where the (properly sourced) information in this article should be found.--Michig 14:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia. A number of words on the list have additional encyclopedic information, beyond definition and etymology, which is not appropriate for Wiktionary. Nikola 06:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep some of the ethnic slurs have an additional cultural impact beyond their simple definition or etymology, that is encyclopedic Bleh999 10:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This article differs from dictionary material in many respects: its depth, its thematic nature, and its cultural relevance. It also provides historical and cultural information that is rarely found in a dictionary. One (reparable) difficulty I see is that the article often doesn't identify derogatory terms as such. Similarly, terms like "may be used" are potentially harmful and misleading, because the entries are generally seen as inappropriate words that shouldn't be used. I suggest alternatives such as "sometimes used". As an aside, I think some of the folks using "arguments to be avoided" here may partly be suggesting that they are good arguments and should be permitted. Valerius 02:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Wiktionary does not house articles like this well, and this goes beyond definitions.  Randall Bart   Talk  04:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Just because some people don't like the fact that these slurs exist, doesn't mean it's unencyclopedic. Moving them to Wiktionary would remove most of the point of even having these around, because it's more than just a bunch of definitions: it's an unofficial "record" of the history of racism. Maybe not palatable, but perhaps inciteful into the darker side of cultures past.Agharo 01:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Carlossuarez46 05:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Non notable actress that has a minor role in a Soap opra. β 13:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


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The result was delete. Daniel 04:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Jamie Clary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This article is not notable. I was unable to find any secondary sources on Clary, therefore the article does not satisfy WP:BIO. Carabinieri 21:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

(UTC)

Soccer book now mentioned in the New York Times (). Altho this is spoiling its value as an Xmas present surprise. Novickas 13:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
'Comment. Publishing "a little" does not satisfy Knowledge (XXG)'s notability standards. The standard is non-trivial, secondary coverage. The sources in the article and the NYT mention are all trivial coverage. The article from tennessean.com comes closest to establishing notability, but this is just a local online newspaper that covers a lot of things that are interesting from a "Middle Tennesseean" perspective, but not from a broader view.--Carabinieri 14:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
According to Quantcast , Tennessean.com has an audience of 311,000 U.S. monthly uniques . Its news coverage has been included in the Library of Congress Election 2002 Web Archive . The paper is also mentioned by Gannett , and try "The Tennessean" in Google News. I don't know what the notability standards for journalists are, but his byline has appeared in a number of notable newsmagazines. Novickas 14:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The point is that its a local newspaper that covers topics of local interest. --Carabinieri 02:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Kattankudi mosque massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)

This page should be deleted since there is not enough proper or reliable sources as confirmed by multiple users . Much of the article relies on known unreliable sources such as MCNS and spur. Also the use of graphic and gory images only serves to heighten emotions and doesn't serve to be informative. In addition, the article fails notability, with only 6-13 hits at most on google ,. Sinhala freedom 16:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

On Google Searches please search without quotes like this

thats the correct way to search. NëŧΜǒńğer 03:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree, we are specifically interested as the name suggests, "Kattankudi mosque massacre", what you suggest will net in unrelated google hits and there are many other mosque massacres that have occurred from other parts of the globe. Sinhala freedom 18:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Well I am not the only one who is saying it. Please see the article talk page. Blog and unfounded sources can't be used to hold up an article. The whole event is sounding more like fiction to me. Sinhala freedom 13:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Removed all references without proper justification?? Please refer to the talk page before throwing alegations on editors. Remember to AGF rather than accusations. Also please read WP:RS. You need third-party resouces and not MCNS. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 13:58, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
YES the references were removed without a proper edit summary. The edit summary was "seems removal of category is fine to me" when whats being removed is all the references. NëŧΜǒńğer 14:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

General Comment I do not want to waste anymore time discussing here who did the right thing or wrong thing, the article has been nominated for deletion, if the references are really unreliable as you guys are saying, let the wiki process take its course and the fellow editors will decide whether the article should stay or go. Thanks NëŧΜǒńğer 14:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Strong Delete This just another POV fork which is linked to other POV fork articles in this mudslinging battle on Knowledge (XXG). The referenced sources do not even relate to this article. It looks like the editor just slapped them on the page to give a little legitimacy. Even then, this is a very weak article. Wiki Raja 23:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
While there are two reliable sources to indicate the incident occurred (there was none before), this hardly makes the article noteworthy and hence the incident perhaps deserves a sentence somewhere in the Sri Lankan civil war article or elsewhere but not a standalone full article. This is confirmed, as I had shown, with the 6-13 google hits referencing this incident. As others have said, WP is not a collection of newspaper articles either. Sinhala freedom 18:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete So far only two news articles have been shown and the rest DO NOT comply WP:RS nor WP:Verify. This deems to stay here, where it is already mentioned. Otherwise this entry does not comply notability as a seperate article. I would like to point out that Knowledge (XXG) is not a collection of news reports on someone or something that has been in the news for a brief period. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 13:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong and Speedy Keep.. What!!! Police Suspect LTTE did that ?!! When even the LTTE it self did not deny this!!! And with all the ample evidences to prove the positive ? Bad faith nomination and clear indication of WP:Duplicity by the nominator. Also , SPUR is a reliable source and people who question that should kindly bring evidences for that. What kind of evidences the nominator is asking here ? May be a direct quote from that school drop out?? The whole incident in well depicted in the books written by Rohan Gunaratne and i ll bring them as soon as i can get hold of them.Iwazaki 07:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Can you explain how is SPUR a third-party in this issue as per the norms of WP:RS? Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 08:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Please take a look at the site and go through WP:RS..and I am sure You wont ask the same question, again, later.Iwazaki 11:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
My question was Is SPUR third-party in this issue? The answer is simple that its not. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 09:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
BTW please do not call fellow editors school drop outs. Just to remind you that you have breached WP:CIVIL and hence the code of conduct. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 08:34, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I ll be more than glad,if not thrilled, if you can show me where I have called the editor like that ? The person I was referring to is a school drop-out and I think even in his BIO he proudly say that. If you still can't comprehend this, then I would appreciate if you stop saying nonsense about my code of conduct.cheerio Iwazaki 11:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I am sure Iwazaki wasn't referring to any editor as a school drop out, but the real perpetrator of the massacre, lets not haste our selves into unwise conclusions here, please assume good faith NëŧΜǒńğer 08:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed am always pro AGF. The sentence preceeding to the school drop out was directed at an editor. It is upto Sinhala freedom to persue it further if he choses to. But what I'm more concerned is about how is SPUR third-party and in spite of me asking this many times no one has come forward to explain the rational. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 09:15, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I have addressed the both issues above and really look forward to your comments regarding those.Of course you can always ignore the code you brought here and address the SPUR issue. I am sure by now, You know, since you are heavily involved in SL related articles, who is that drop-out guy. Iwazaki 11:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
User Iwazaki has violated WP:NPA (dare I say it again). Wouldn't it be more productive to stick to the subject at hand rather than speculating about other users political antics. Sinhala freedom 14:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Or should I dare to say you Don't be a dick??. Or should I use a real warning regarding your degrading of my ethnic group ? I am sure Knowledge (XXG) has rules and regulations regarding this ? meantime, should I tell you again not to be a ........ ThanksIwazaki 15:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why the arguments from you have gotten emotional here. It is clearly unprovoked and I sincerely hope you can calm down and come back for a fruitful discussion afterwards. I'll wait. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinhala freedom (talk • contribs)
Good point by Iwazaki. We can't have have citations from websites run by school drop-outs or other uneducated thugs. But that's a moot point now. There are enough citations from reliable international media in this article.--snowolfD4 16:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
At a time when school drop-outs run very successful businesses, have become world famous directors, and have been former presidents of Sri Lanka, I wouldn't be so naive enough to dismiss anyone based on their educational qualifications. After all it was an 'educated' Oxford grad who helped create our countries mess in the first place. Sinhala freedom 22:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Again a violation of WP:NPA assuming a user is acting in bad faith. While there are more sources for the incident now. Verifiability (less so now) and notability is still a concern. Till I can verify some of the sources from the archives, how can I accept some of the figures quoted. Anyway the article fails notability. Sinhala freedom 14:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me , instead of giving bogus WP:NPA's expecting some friends might hear your ranting, please engage in a constructive discussions. So far we have shown here, that
  • 1 You were wrong with your google hit search
  • 2 You have shown nothing to disprove the notability . Could you please for the sake of Knowledge (XXG) bring at least one good argument? Or should I depicted your arguments in a table ?Iwazaki 15:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Iwazaki my friend, everyone can make statements as you just did. But please care to answer the issues I have higlighted with the google hits on top of the page. I trust you somehow skipped the statement in this nest of discussions comments. Sinhala freedom 15:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
So now you are accusing me for violating WP:NPA? If someone violating WP:NPA I know that you know where to go. And I know that some good people who have some good level of common sense and pretty good understanding about the policies are hanging around there too. Then they will decide that whether I violated the policy or not by saying Another bad faith nom. I would like to mention this one too, you are violating WP:NPA by accusing me of violating WP:NPA!!! Regarding the sources matter, goto the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and ask from them whether we can use paper archives as sources. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 16:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong, speedy keep. There are enough notable contemporary sources to verify this incident. To name a few currently used in the article,
  • Xinhua, 147 Muslims Massacred by Tamil "Tigers" in Sri Lanka, Colombo, August 4, 1990
  • The New York Times, Tamils Kill 110 Muslims at 2 Sri Lankan Mosques, August 5, 1990
  • The Times, Tamils kill 116 Muslims, August 13, 1990
  • Associated Press, Tamil Rebels Order Muslims to Leave City, June 17, 1995
  • BBC News, Army to protect threatened eastern Muslim town, June 24, 1995
There is also enough news stories from later dates covering the incident, proving it was notable event, and not just in the news for a few days.
The motives of the nominator are also greatly doubtful. When I went through news archives and provided sources for the incident in a separate page, he tried to get them deleted so that no editor could use them to verify the article. --snowolfD4 16:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This user is synthesizing and fabricating his own set of facts. Please do continue to makeup tales and other stories to suit your POV and add unverifiable details to the articles claim them to non-existant archives. Your blanking of content on Sri Lanka makes it abundantly clear how trustworthy or POV loaded your contents are. Where did I ask for the stuff to be deleted. I had merely questioned the legality of the contents on wikipedia. As you had explicitly made clear it was a copyright violation. I had merely checked that with an admin. You have breached WP:AGF. Sinhala freedom 20:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey hey hey!! You are speaking like a big shot about WP:NPA and you breached it right now and right here. I asked from you to ask from the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard about the paper archives. Or you can goto a library and ask for the paper archives. For the copy vio issue, hope you have to read what admin Haemo told in his talkpage. DO not accuse others for your inability. Mind that! Thank you --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 06:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Not only that,
So now you are asking from us to have citations from comedy sites like http://www.stoperrorism.com also? --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 17:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Just because these incidents are on a few newspaper cutouts or human rights bulletins, doesn't make the incident notable. per WP:NOT, its not collection of newspaper cutouts. Btw, you have referenced the same article many times hoping to show a greater number of articles ? You have missed the point entirely. Sinhala freedom 20:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Reapeted? ah you might be talking about the snowolf's Reuters, Trapped in conflict, Sri Lanka Muslims mull action, July 3, 2006 and ReliefWeb, Trapped in conflict, Sri Lanka Muslims mull action 03 Jul 2006. Yeah one of them were repeated its true. Hope you never heard that after the preparation of the news by the news agencies they were published by the newspapers. Sorry that it was not repeated in Eelam news and Eelanatham but these were published in ReliefWeb and by the http://news.oneindia.in. I think you missed everything, entirely. As I told you before, if you have any doubts regarding our news paper links, goto the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and ask from them. No use of crying here. Cheers --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ 05:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Utcursch comments are very reasonable and I can buy them. He has pointed to some books with references so, I think my issues have been largely addressed. Merger idea with the Sri Lankan civil war maybe an option as well. As you point out somewhere there is an unacceptable POV problem with the article now, hope you can intervene to fix it. I am also willing to recall my deletion nomination at this point, provided there is some help in enforcing NPOV by an admin and clean up whats there now. Sinhala freedom 12:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Atmaram and Lahiru, I dont think we decide on standalone articles based on emotions, but on media coverage. Please look into the examples I have given earlier on which the media follow-ups are centered on particular incidents and not as we see in Kattanduki massacre where it gets mentioned along with others. Atmaram if you didnt notice I wanted this to stayhere and I would agree if you want to include this with all the graphical details you want to under Expulsion of Muslims from Northern province by LTTE- I would appreciate that too. But as a standlone, nopes! Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε 11:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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