Knowledge (XXG)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton 16:29, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Correlating Politics, Government and Law in India (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article is marked as being "under construction", but I don't believe that an article with such a diffuse topic could possibly be encyclopedic regardless of the contents that are added. The existing material looks very random, and none of it is yet sourced. I suggest merging anything good into the more specific articles that this one comprises. looie496 (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, my familiarity with the technical aspects is limited, and I'm not completely sure what you're saying. Do you mean that it was improper to bring this to AfD, or are you just indicating how this should be handled if the result is not keep? Wouldn't it be improper to merge and redirect without asking for discussion first? looie496 (talk) 16:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I nominated because I don't believe there should be an article on this "topic". The fate of the material is another matter. I don't even know if there would be anything to merge, since the article is currently pretty much unreferenced and I'm not familiar with articles on related topics. Anyway, I would be happy to strike the last sentence of the nom if it is improper. As a practical matter, though, I don't see how what you are saying could make sense. If the outcome here is "delete", the closing admin is likely to immediately delete the article, and then how could the contents be merged anywhere? They won't be accessible. looie496 (talk) 21:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Vague overgeneral unencycopedic article. some of the links might be useful, but the article isn';t. DGG (talk) 04:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. It's not clear what the article creator's intention of this article is supposed to be. If the goal is to describe the factors that affect politics, government, and law in India, one might as well just redirect to India, but this title is not a likely redirect selection. If possible, I would like to hear from the article creator to find out what they have in mind for this article. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Fails WP:N, WP:V; hard to tell what the topic of the article actually is - it appears to duplicate several topics in the extensive footer Template:India topics and synthesize them into one. The editors who wrote it did some good work, but that content would be better merged into the other related topics. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 05:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. I would normally suggest merging, but this is so unencyclopedic, it's only fit for deletion. TopGearFreak 15:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep Numerous sources refer to the topic

Nai Talim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article started a month ago but not materially edited since its creation. Not sufficient information to determine whether the subject is notable (or real). Unreferenced. Bongomatic 23:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep. A simple search for Nai Talim in Google gives sources from reliable Gandhi-related organizations for the top hits. Lack of activity is not a good reason for deletion. - Mgm| 08:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Lack of activity is not the reason for the nomination. The nomination is because as written, the article is unencyclopedic and neither asserts nor demonstrates notability of the subject. The nomination is for this article, not for some ideal article that could be—but hasn't been—written.

      The comment on activity explains why this wasn't nominated a month ago. Bongomatic 09:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

      • You should familiarize yourself with our Knowledge (XXG):Deletion policy, and with our Knowledge (XXG):Editing policy, as I linked to in the edit summary. We don't delete articles at AFD because they "don't assert notability". That is nowhere in our policy. We delete them because they are not actually notable, and determining that (as explained in Knowledge (XXG):Guide to deletion#Nomination, Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion, User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage#What to do, and — yes — deletion policy itself) involves you looking for sources yourself, in order to demonstrate that you have a sound basis for stating that the Primary Notability Criterion is not satisfied. You clearly haven't looked for sources yourself, otherwise you'd have seen the many history books, other encyclopaedias, scholarly articles in journals, newspaper articles, and (as mentioned) WWW sites that document this subject in detail. As such, you have no case that the subject is not notable, since you haven't done the research from which you could determine this.

        Writing the encyclopaedia is not Somebody Else's Problem. If you see a poor stub, you are supposed to expand it. (Again, see User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage#What to do.) Repeatedly nominating articles for deletion instead of spending your time looking for sources is zero help towards improving Knowledge (XXG), and wastes other editors' time. One ends up actually being the problem. Put in the time to look for sources yourself and write. Follow the triage procedure, and only come to AFD if you don't find any sources after looking. You clearly are capable of writing. You've written 3 paragraphs in this very discussion. Expend that writing effort on actual article content, rather than deletion discussions. Think how much just those 3 paragraphs worth of writing on your part would have improved this article. Uncle G (talk) 12:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 20:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 20:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. The title itself is sufficient information to determine that this is notable by simply doing a Google Books search and looking at a few of the 666 sources found. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. No consensus to delete. Malinaccier (talk) 00:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Lolly Badcock (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable person, who doesn't appear to meet WP:PORNBIO. Tatarian (talk) 21:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Climate conflict (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

WP:Neologism states "A new term does not belong in Knowledge (XXG) unless there are reliable sources specifically about the term — not just sources which mention it briefly or use it in passing". I believe that the Climate conflict article should be deleted, because I have not been able to find a reliable source covering specifically the term "Climate conflict". Thank you for reading, and thank you in advance to anyone who contributes in a discussion regarding my nomination. Terrakyte (talk) 21:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Keep per WP:SNOW (non-admin closure), with special thanks to Cunard for reconfirming notability. Ecoleetage (talk) 14:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Adam Neate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Having looked at historic news articles I can't see much evidence that Adam Neate is know for anything but giving away some pictures which may or may not be worth something. His only notability appears to be as a self-publicist. Speedy delete failed, and I now realise that request was not appropriate as the article did attempt to assert some notability. Therefore I've proposed a normal deletion. Pontificake (talk) 21:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Mountaintop removal mining#Criticism. SoWhy 21:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Maria Gunnoe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The subject is a non-notable environmentalist. The citations given are about the mining practice not her, and therefore can not be used to establish notability.-- Kelapstick (talk) 21:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

DeleteMerge. The article doesn't have a lot of content and the individual doesn't seem particularly notable by herself. I'd suggest folding her information along with that in some of the wikilinked articles from the Maria Gunnoe entry into an article on environmental activism related to mountaintop removal mining. Brian Powell (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. per WP:OR, WP:ESSAY, WP:FRINGE l'aquatique || talk 01:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Perlovsky's theory of logic and the mind (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Talk page says the text is copied from http://www.leonid-perlovsky.com with permission. This may be original research. Like Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Knowledge instinct (2nd nomination) this appears to be a one-man theory with very little independent support.

I am also nominating the following article for the same reason:

McWomble (talk) 13:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep or at least partial merge parts of Logic and the mind with psychology of reasoning. At least parts of this article could perhaps be profitably merged into our too brief stub on the psychology of reasoning. In fact, I might be tempted to prefer this title over "psychology of reasoning" for the content there, although perhaps logic and psychology might be the best title. The interface between formal logic and actual human reasoning processes is a vital philosophical subject, and our coverage seems scattershot. The historical account given here seems reasonably mainstream, accurate, and valuable to me.

    Neural modeling fields seems to rely much more strongly on Leonid Perlovsky's own thought, and frankly I found it much rougher going. Dr. Perlovsky does seem to be a respected academic, though, and there doesn't seem to be any commercial conflict of interest going on, so I say weak keep to that one. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment on NMF. Regardless of what happens with the Logic and the mind, I would like to make sure that the Neural modeling fields article can be kept. I have changed it by removing more controversial claims. Basically, this article is about the mathematics behind the dynamic logic theory, which is a machine learning technique, used by AI researchers, there are many publications, and it definitely deserves to be on Knowledge (XXG). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanilin (talk • contribs) 19:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
We need some references to "neural modeling fields" that aren't from Perlovsky. Also, the phrase is a neologism. This seems to be a multi-stage neural net, an idea that dates back to the 1960s, (see Perceptron) but by using nonstandard terminology, it's made to look like a new idea from Perlovsky.--John Nagle (talk) 03:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
OK, will provide the references, give me till tomorrow don't have time today to work on this.Romanilin (talk) 18:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I updated the references to include several not by Perlovsky. This theory has been referred to by several names, which I added to introduction. In the book by Perlovsky (2001) where he describes the NMF, he calls it Modeling Fields Theory. Regardless, this is a valid NEW idea, that has been used by researchers, and it is NOT the same as multi-stage neural network. Romanilin (talk) 04:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Then we ought to have an explanation of how they differ - sourced, and preferably not from Perlovsky. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been looking at the new references. Deming is associated with Perlovsky; they've co-authored papers, so he's not an independent source. I did find a thesis that referenced MLANS , but only to reject that approach. Perlovsky is also associated with Nichols Research, referenced in the "MDA Technologies" reference. . After a few mergers and spinoffs, the company "Torch Concepts" emerged with the technology. They were later involved with the JetBlue data mining privacy scandal., but that seems to be unrelated to MLANS. I'm still not seeing anything by an unaffiliated third party. I did find a mention of MLANS and Torch Concepts , but it credits Prof. Keinosuke Fukunaga of Purdue University with the technology. At best, MLANS seems to deserve a minor mention in some article on neural nets or a related article. --John Nagle (talk) 17:35, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
For one thing, Torch does not say that Dr. Burdick came up with MLANS, it says he directed several projects for ARPA and NASA involving the application of MLANS. Now, the name and the idea for this theory do come from Perlovsky, there is not much we can do about it. I thought all we needed was proof that this is used by other researchers. I have been to conferences where people presented on this. True a lot of them are somehow associated with Perlovsky, but how can they not be, the theory is only 20 years old, Perlovsky is still doing active research.Romanilin (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment What this subject really seems to deserve is a brief entry in Neural network#Learning algorithms. That's where the various algorithms for training neural nets are covered, and that's where Perlovsky's scheme fits into Knowledge (XXG), if anywhere. It's being presented here as a standalone theory, with few ties to existing work and claims that it's a significant breakthrough, which makes it look WP:FRINGE. As Neural network puts it, "There are many algorithms for training neural networks; most of them can be viewed as a straightforward application of optimization theory and statistical estimation." --John Nagle (talk) 18:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
This is NOT a neural network, this IS a stand alone theory. Could we PLEASE ask an opinion of somebody who IS in the field of Computational Intelligence? This is a model based framework, and neural networks are NOT model based systems. Neural networks consist of neurons (simple processing elements) and weights. NMF system consists of parameterized models, arbitrarily complex. Yes it can be visualized as a neural network but it is not. However, even if it were, not all neural networks are located in one article. For example, Adaptive resonance theory is a neural network architecture that has its own entry. And it is just a type of Neural network. Romanilin (talk) 22:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I just thought that the article could use a good illustration, I will add it and hopefully clarify the structure and the difference from the neural network.Romanilin (talk) 00:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I want to make it clear that I am only arguing about the Neural modeling fields article. The other article Logic and the mind is more controversial and since many people object I am OK with deleting it and reworking it later in a different form or as part of another entry as suggested.Romanilin (talk) 23:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
One of the references even says it's a neural network approach: "The main component of the approach is the maximum likelihood adaptive neural system (MLANS), which is a model-based neural network combining the adaptivity of a neural network with the a priori knowledge of signal models. ". "Computational intelligence" is what used to be called "neural networks" or "connectionism". I don't use that stuff much, but I do have a MSCS degree from Stanford, once took "Epistemological Problems in Artificial Intelligence" from McCarthy, hold some patents in the area, and ran a DARPA Grand Challenge team, so I'm reasonably familiar with the field. This stuff just isn't that novel. Model-based systems have been tried before, usually in the field of adaptive model-based control. Many, many schemes for tuning neural nets have been tried. It's hard to tell where this stuff fits, though, because of the nonstandard terminology, the lack of references to related work, and the general weirdness of the material. I'm thinking WP:FRINGE here. For an example of a similar fringe theory, see . We need more on this subject written independently of Perlovsky. --John Nagle (talk) 02:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment from the author It looks like there are two major objections. Here is my response again to both.

1. "There is not enough support except from the author of the theory"

A. Perlovsky himself is a respected scientist. He wrote a book, many book chapters, hundreds of publications. He received a McLucas Basic Research Award from the US Air Force: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123071858

B. NMF theory is described in his 2001 book. The book has good reviews, see Amazon web site.

http://www.amazon.com/Neural-Networks-Intellect-Model-Based-Concepts/dp/0195111621/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225632930&sr=1-2

C. He wrote several book chapters on NMF

D. There are many publications that describe application of NMF. For example, this paper speaks of 20db (100 times) improvement of tracking in clutter. Ground moving target indication is a difficul problem and the improvement is simply huge. The paper is published in IEEE transactions on neural networks. http://www.leonid-perlovsky.com/perlovsky-TNN06-L487-final2.pdf

E. There are references on the internet to NMF as basis for grants, research proposals etc. For example:

http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/pdf/bneu.pdf

http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/soc/research/ABC/

http://spie.org/x648.xml?product_id=540989

I think this is hard to claim that there is no link to existing work. If people who use NMF know Perlovsky and co-author with him, that is because the neural networks community is not very big and it is a young field. People working with similar technologies usually collaborate. True, there is no separate book not written by Perlovsky on NMF, but this cannot be a criteria for deleting the page, given all the other references. I also don't think that the NMF article is trying to artificially inflate the importance of NMF, it simply describes what it is mathematically/algorithmically and gives the phycological interpretation.


2. "This is just a regular neural network disguised in different terminology"

Yes the word "neural network" is in the refences. However in order to claim that this is nothing new, simple word search is not enough. With all respect to John Nagle, his main area does not seem to be in neural networks. Romanilin (talk) 13:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Q: Are you talking about Logic and the mind or Neural modeling fields? This page is for discussing the former. If we don't stick to that topic, it gets much harder for anyone else to follow the discussion. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
A. This is only about Neural modeling fields. Somebody nominated both pages on this discussion, but at this point I am only talking about the second one.
I have the same question, which of the two articles is this about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanilin (talk • contribs) 21:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, McWomble (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Huh? Delete it merely because it's a fringe theory? There's a consensus to delete those??? I don't think that's what WP:FRINGE says: It says this:
This guideline establishes which fringe theories and opinions may be included in Knowledge (XXG), and to a certain extent how articles about them should approach their subjects.
It says it's about which ones should be included. It's not about a guideline saying to delete them all. I think it's got to have something to do with notability. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The requirements are, in a nutshell.
  • In order to be notable enough to appear in Knowledge (XXG), a fringe idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory.
  • Even debunking or disparaging references are adequate, as they establish the notability of the theory outside of its group of adherents.
This seems reasonable; we should have articles on Velikovsky or on the New Chronology or on John Cleves Symmes. But I don't see that either of these is satisfied here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Many other than Velikovsky and his associates have written about Velikovsky's fringe theories, but few other than Perlovsky and his associates have written about Perlovsky's fringe theories. That's the notability distinction. --John Nagle (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with John Nagle; I apologize for having been unclear. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. No evidence that this theory is notable. All of the references are either to articles by the theory's originator or to historical writings -- none indicate that that the theory is considered notable by anyone other than Perlovsky. The whole article looks like OR, but if there's anything salvageable, it could be merged to the Leonid Perlovsky article. Klausness (talk) 20:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
  • This is NOT fringe. And not OR, the article Neural modeling fields is based on published work. Come on, this is getting ridiculous. Here is definition from wiki: "Fringe science is scientific inquiry in an established field of study which departs significantly from mainstream or orthodox theories, and is classified in the "fringes" of a credible mainstream academic discipline. Mainstream scientists typically regard fringe concepts as highly speculative or weakly confirmed". There is a book and many publications. Certainly Oxford monograph is sufficient to establish a mainstream. There are many publications in serious journals. US Air Force Basic Research Award is not given for fringe theories, International Neural Networks Society Gabor Award is not given for fringe theories. Look at Perlovsky web site. Not to mention that Computational intelligence is a young field of study, so what we are not going to put anything on the wiki until there is more than one book about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanilin (talk • contribs) 19:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. This article is fundamentally flawed and nothing could be done to make it okay. Statements like "Aristotle invented logic" where the ref is from Aristotle are deeply misleading. Does Perlovsky think Aristotle invented logic or does Aristotle think Aristotle invented logic? The article argues a point (rather feebly if you ask me) but that is not an encyclopedia entry's role. There is too much synthesis and original research here. And it couldn't be otherwise! xschm (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
  • What is the relationship between the claim that Aristotle invented logic and Perlovsky's theory of logic and the mind? This article gives a cursory (and wildly incomplete) history of theories of logic. But it doesn't relate them to the subject of the article. It seems like it aims to be an essay arguing that Perlovsky is the apotheosis of this grand tradition. It fails to make a convincing argument and such an argument has no place in an encyclopedia. If that argument exists elsewhere, it could be documented here, but it seems far from clear that is the case. xschm (talk) 01:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. This appears to be a personal essay of the type described in WP:NOT. The contents are not *about* Perlovsky's theories and how they might have been received by reliable third parties, they *are* Perlovsky's theories. The map should not be the territory, but in this case it is. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Relisted so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xschm (talk) 21:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment he himself is notable, whether or not mainstream, on the basis of OUP publishing of one of his books. That does not make every one of his theories, or any of them, separately notable. One article is sufficient. most of the material here is unencyclopedic summary and argumentation, so I don't see how there's anything appropriate for merging. This is a clear attempt to use Knowledge (XXG) for promotional purposes. DGG (talk) 04:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, exactly that. Well said. Guy (Help!) 01:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. We're not proposing to delete the Leonid Perlovsky article here, just the "spinoff articles". --John Nagle (talk) 05:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I think there's consensus for deleting Perlovsky's theory of logic and the mind. That's just a badly written history of logic with a link to Perlovsky's stuff at the end. It's still not clear what to do about Neural modeling fields, which is more like a technical paper. If that's kept, it will need a major rewrite, which is going to be a tough job. Maybe trim it down to a brief note on what the subject is about, with a few links to papers, other work, and related neural net articles. --John Nagle (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. unanimous agreement, nomination withdrawn Mgm| 09:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Infanta Adelgundes, Duchess of Guimarães (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This biography fails WP:NOT (Knowledge (XXG) articles are not genealogical entries) and WP:BIO (the subject has not received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources). Born the daughter of a long-deposed ex-king of Portugal, she appears to have done nothing of note in her life, and appears to be covered only in two brief genealogical entries (of which this article is essentially an expanded version) on websites whose reliability is not immediately apparent.  Sandstein  21:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Nomination withdrawn on account of the notability provided by the coverage in Christensen (thanks, Caponer!). I'm not impressed by the regency-in-absentia itself, though; the monarchy being deposed, that would seem to be a wholly empty office.  Sandstein  06:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Regent-in-absentia
Between 1920 and 1928, Adelgundes acted as the regent-in-absentia on behalf of her nephew and Miguelist claimant to the Portuguese throne, Duarte Nuno, Duke of Braganza, who was only 12 years old when his father Miguel renounced his claim to the throne in favor of his son. At the beginning of her regency in 1920, Adelgundes was created 7th Duchess of Guimarães. In 1921, she authored a manifesto outlining the House of Braganza's goals for the restoration of the Portuguese monarchy.
Her regency is also mentioned at the Knowledge (XXG) article for Duarte Nuno, Duke of Braganza.
Another Knowledge (XXG) article for Archduke Karl Pius of Austria, Prince of Tuscany notes that Adelgundes was his godmother while Pope Pius X was his godfather.

--Caponer (talk) 03:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep I have seen more obscure royals than this with Knowledge (XXG) biographies, being the daughter of a king (even deposed) and acting as regent-in-absentia for (at the time) a relatively recently deposed dynasty does add up to notability, Knowledge (XXG) is not paper, but the article could explain more clearly the context of Portuguese royalty and claims to the throne. PatGallacher (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete. per WP:SNOW Mgm| 09:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Hallball (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

WP:NFT. Disputed prod. IceCreamAntisocial (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually they're both wrong. Lab ball was invented even earlier. I should know, I played it. - Mgm| 09:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Occurrence-in-subtuple problem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. Unsourced, orphaned, badly written article containing an OR derivation of a trivial formula. Delete and Transwiki to Wikibooks; maybe they have a use for it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment This is of course one of those cases where the problem could go by different names, so google could miss it if you use the exact title of the article. I'd like to try to find out if it's on French Knowledge (XXG) or the like under some other name. Obviously the person who wrote it is not a native speaker of English, so it's plausible that he or she would have put in elsewhere first. Michael Hardy (talk) 05:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • PS: I've sent an email to the original author of the article inquiring about scholarly sources and Knowledge (XXG) articles in other languages. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • He has responded. He may cite some source within the article sometime soon, but I'm not clear about details. I see a distinct possibility that (1) this article may get deleted on the grounds that it's probably original research and then (2) a few months from now fully refereed sources will be there to get cited and the article will be recreated. If that happens, I'd guess the thing to do would be to restore the edit history. Are there precedents? Michael Hardy (talk) 03:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Why would you want poor content like this to weigh down the regulation of gene expression article? Narayanese (talk) 06:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton 16:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Gregory Davidson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable high school teacher, fails WP:BIO by a country mile. The article asserts that he "gained statewide notoriety" through nothing more than alerting county officials to a rule disallowing a candidate from standing for county sheriff, but the websites of both newspapers cited (with articles dated in June and November of this year) don't seem to have heard of him, and "Gregory Davidson" + "Oklahoma" turns up zero hits on Google News. Meets none of the criteria for politicians or educators in WP:BIO, no verifiable sources.  RGTraynor  20:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Glen Swan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article fails to meet notability criteria for WP:BIO or WP:GNG. This is a bio for an "online community manager" of two RPG games. This appears to be a glorified title for a customer service rep. The company website doesn't mention his name, although individual seems to have a knack for self-promotion through game site interviews. — CactusWriter | 20:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 04:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Leon Bolier (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No substantial coverage in third party, reliable sources. No "lasting and historical interest and impact" which it looks like it fails per WP:Music Oo7565 (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Pathfinders: In the Company of Strangers Film/Movie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article about a future film fails notability criteria for WP:FILM. It was created by a probable WP:COI SPA (User:Pathfindersfilm). An internet search reveals this is an independent film scheduled for a summer 2009 release. There is no significant coverage -- the only info is from IMDb, Myspace, YouTube and filmmakers' press releases. — CactusWriter | 20:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. G6, non-controversial housekeeping, page is a duplicate Mgm| 09:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

San Jose Sharks roster (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

orphaned and unmaintained fork of Template:San Jose Sharks roster ccwaters (talk) 20:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Spartaz 16:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Baby bat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

neologisms‎; little to no widespread use, no references Beach drifter (talk) 19:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Response. I haven't seen "baby bat" used to widely refer to what it claims to be, yet I would venture a guess that someone searching for baby bat would be looking for bats? I'm unsure on this one, so I would obviously like to hear some more opinions on this. DARTH PANDA 20:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton 01:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Vamsidhar (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a person with unclear notability Beagel (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Sunk Loto. Spartaz 17:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Big Picture Lies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article has existed for years, and has not developped into anything more than a citationless two-sentence stub. It is a permastub, and it fails notability for music. Neelix (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep per precedent. That it is a stub is meaningless for an AFD, as being a stub isn't against policy. It is an album by someone notable enough to have an article here. It was released on a Sony label, which qualifies as a major label as well. The artist has released multiple albums. WP:NALBUMS says two interesting things, including In general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Knowledge (XXG). as well as saying albums must been general notability standards. Most of the AFDs I have seen have considered all albums by notable artists with multiple releases as notable, defacto. I tend to agree. DENNIS BROWN (T) (C) 19:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
    The section that you cite prefaces the points you mention by saying that All articles on albums, singles or songs must meet the basic criteria at the notability guidelines, with significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. This article has no such coverage, and considering it has not gathered any sources in the three and a half years that it has existed, it is unlikely to gather them in the future. Neelix (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
    And released albums from bands with multiple albums are considered defacto notable because of the band, per consensus. It is basically the reason the band is notable and written about to begin with. DENNIS BROWN (T) (C) 12:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect. Since this will probably always remain a stub, the content should be merged with Sunk Loto the album's creator.  LinguistAtLarge  19:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Contrary to nomination, passes WP:MUSIC as it is an album on a major record by a notable band. Size of the article is not justification for deletion, only for improvement, and maybe for merging. Theseeker4 (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect with Sunk Loto. There is not enough information to sustain a separate article, but it is sufficiently notable as per Theseeker4. - Mgm| 09:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Spartaz 17:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Endless Damnation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable demo, fails WP:MUSIC. No coverage in independent reliable sources. SummerPhD (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Neither WP:COI, nor the size of the country nor the language of the sources are reasons for deletion. This said, notability is and here consensus is that none within the relevant guidelines exists. SoWhy 21:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Max Kaur (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article created by SPA and mainly edited by SPA IP. Because of the user page of the creator of this article and the IP location, there is reason to believe that this page is created and edited by Max Kaur himself and therefore there is violation of the WP:COI policy. Edits are made in destructive way without giving any explanation. Also, the notability of this person is not clear. Being a party chairman adviser in some small Eastern European country is not enough to establish the notability. There is no search results for Max Kaur in English (except this wiki article and its clones). As all references are given only in Estonian, somebody from WP:Estonia has to verify if these sources are enough to establish the notability of this person. Beagel (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  1. Violation of the COI policy is not a valid reason for deletion.
  2. The notability isssue should be if a party chairman is notable period, the size of the country does not matter. Knowledge (XXG) is a global publication.
  3. While sources are preferred in English on the English language Knowledge (XXG), sources in Estonian are totally acceptable. - Mgm| 09:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete nothing in WP:Politician suggests that party chairmen are notable and anyway he isn't a party chairman he's an adviser to a party chairman which is definitely not notable. Valenciano (talk) 12:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. I don't know any Estonian, but just by looking at the cited sources I can see that several of them are newspaper and magazine articles that mention the subject in the headlines, meaning that they are substantially about the subject so getting him through the general notability guideline. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I see no basis for assuming that membership in the society given is intrinsically notable, and nothing in the bio to indicate that the person is other than a minor political figure without any significant elective or appointive position. the highlight of his career seems to be when he declined to run for mayor of Kiviõli, a town of 7400 people. DGG (talk) 05:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Disney Princess Enchanted Tales: Follow Your Dreams. SoWhy 21:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Disney Princess Enchanted Tales (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unnotable future film release with no actual release date; even with a release, this is not a notable direct to DVD release. Fails WP:N and WP:NFF. The two "references" are a blog and a licensing magazine article. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:04, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

FK ŽAK Sombor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No source the club exist, only FK Radnicki Sombor appeared in some source Matthew_hk tc 17:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I found source that another club ŽAK Kikinda club currently in fourth level (Vojvodina East), but not this one. Matthew_hk tc 17:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Google searsch zero hit on RSSSF archive. Matthew_hk tc 17:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(UTC)

Comment the list from smso.net above, just a cache of wikipedia. Matthew_hk tc 11:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Kamen Rider Agito. Spartaz 16:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Kamen Rider G4 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Purely in-universe reiteration of plot material for a character who appeared in one movie. No material warranting a split at this stage. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Fails WP:BIO. Elluminate (talk) 16:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Keep It is part of the series' plot in a variety of ways. Fractyl (talk) 18:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Nomination Withdrawn. Due to excellent research input by several of the editors present, WP:RS issues have been resolved. I am happy to withdraw my nomination, and The Reverb Syndicate can enjoy their Knowledge (XXG) niche. Thank you, everyone, for a spirited discussion! Ecoleetage (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The Reverb Syndicate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Obscure band with a woefully unreferenced article. A pair of brief chats on CBC and an interview on a college radio station hardly qualifies as the "multiple non-trivial" media sources required of WP:BAND; it fails all other aspects of WP:BAND, too. Ecoleetage (talk) 16:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

References have now been added for all quotes/facts/etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by V1i2n3c4e5 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, I'll come back to this in a year or two once they meet more of the requirements.

It also appears they have a friend at the Ottawa Citizen in Fateema Sayani, who keeps writing about them over and over. That sort of dilutes the credibility of the coverage. Ecoleetage (talk) 13:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I really don't think you can assume that Fateema Sayani is a personal friend of the band's just because she's written about them more than once. Bearcat (talk) 15:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
The credibility of this source is seriously problematic -- one writer endlessly hyping a band is suspect. Ecoleetage (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
She's an entertainment columnist, whose job is to write about the local music scene. All it proves is that they're generating enough buzz to warrant coverage from a reporter whose job is to write about concerts that are generating buzz. The Ottawa Citizen is not a newspaper that would be expected to give an entertainment journalist much "write about whoever the hell you want whether our readers have ever heard of them or not" latitude, either — it's a major newspaper-of-record owned by a company that's not exactly known for going out of its way to support anything terribly far removed from mainstream interest, not an anything-goes community tabloid. Bearcat (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it proves nothing of the sort. It would appear the Ottawa music scene is fairly small if these guys keep turning up repeatedly in the local music column. And there is no evidence of "generating buzz" -- where did that come from (outside of the band's web site)? Your opinions on the newspaper and its owners -- while interesting for those of us who do not have access to the publication or know of its history -- are, nonetheless, less than relevant to the discussion of the ban'd notability or lack thereof. Ecoleetage (talk) 18:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. References are local coverage, doesn't meet the notability criteria in my opinion. A band should have done more before I would support it. PKT(alk) 12:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I've also added a reference confirming that they've toured well beyond Ottawa (including at least one show in, er, New York City), from a fairly substantial article in Chart — which, if anybody in this discussion has never heard of it, is one of the two nationally-distributed Canadian music magazines (Exclaim! being the other) that's sufficiently important to confer notability all by itself even if there weren't already other sources in the article. So that's WP:MUSIC #1 and #4. Keep. Bearcat (talk) 15:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Not that it's all too important, but just searching them on Google shows the first 150 or so hits to be directly related to the band.—Preceding unsigned comment added by V1i2n3c4e5 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 18 November 2008
Comment I just read the Chart coverage and, I am sorry to to say, it only reconfirms their total lack of notability (it also appears that Chart will write about anyone with a guitar, but that's another matter). As for the coverage: being invited to be part of a showcase (usually a line up of a half-dozen to a dozen obscure bands) is not the same thing as having a show (which did not take place here). The band appears to have been invited to be part of a line-up in some obscure offering by an obscure DJ for whom Google searches turn up nothing of value: and . A Google search to confirm the band's New York adventure turns up nothing: -- there is no shortage of legitimate music media in New York, and none of those outlets even bothered to cite the band. Again, these guys just don't have any notability. (And will someone please remove the references in the article that tap the band's web site as the source of alleged accomplishments?). Ecoleetage (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment – What matters, though, for the purposes of the general notability guideline (or for WP:MUSIC criterion #1), is that the coverage exists (and is independent of the band, and is non-trivial). It is not required that the coverage verify some additional accomplishment. At the article now stands, there are two articles in Chart, four in the Ottawa Citizen, and appearances on CBC Radio One. Furthermore, there is nothing in the WP:N guideline that discourages the use of local sources. Paul Erik 18:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I politely and respectfully disagree. Four articles in one newspaper, all authored by the same writer, raises a huge red flag -- even by the hype-happy music media standards, this is dubious. If you read the The Chart coverage (rather than just acknowledge it is there), it painfully exposes the band has zero notability, and it states they were part of the line-up of an obscure New York showcase (for which there is no independent verification that they ever performed -- no New York media coverage of their gig exists). And the two brief CBC chats are, quite frankly, completely without substance. Yes, some coverage exists. And if we actually read the coverage and listen to the radio chats, it all circles back to the same fact: a non-notable band with no label, no charted songs, no fan base and no evidence of notability. Ecoleetage (talk) 19:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Not to be a bother, but I removed the reference in the article to Elbo.ws (this appears to be a blog and not appropriate, per WP:RS), and I also removed the references that linked to the band's web site (I think the article would be strengthened by independent media sources and not the band hyping itself). Also, can someone please provide online links to the Ottawa Citizen coverage? As it stands, there is no way to confirm that the coverage is non-trivial. Thanks. Ecoleetage (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
It actually is possible to confirm it if you go beyond the Internet to search for sources. (Sorry, that sounded snarky. :) ) Anyway, I have my library database results here in front of me: There are 28 articles in the Ottawa Citizen that come up in a search of "The Reverb Syndicate". A large number of them are directory-type listings of the band's performances, so that does not help towards notability. But many of them are either brief non-trivial mentions or substantial coverage. The "Rock born" article is 358 words about the band. The "space oddity" article is 473 words about the band. The "New to" article is briefer but still not directory-like, at 96 words. The "City" article is only 119 words but it confirms they toured England and Scotland. In sum, this does not represent "trivial coverage" according to what the guidelines label as trivial coverage. Paul Erik 20:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Considering your paragraph runs 149 words, we can determine the Citizen’s coverage is not exactly in-depth. And, no, your comment was not snarky – my library doesn’t have access to that newspaper. Ecoleetage (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
DUDE!!!1 You are saying bands can't use quotes from their own website to verify notability?! Man, if you take that attitude, and NO new small town band that only plays corner bars and private parties with their own self-released CD will EVER get an article on Knowledge (XXG)! ;) DENNIS BROWN (T) (C) 19:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
That's not the situation here. Bearcat (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Chart, not to put too fine a point on it, is the Canadian music magazine of record. Coverage in that magazine is in and of itself sufficient to meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC. We don't apply subjective assessments of whether the magazine is being excessively generous in covering "nobodies" or not — if they've written non-trivial content about the band (as opposed to a passing mention in a concert listings section or something like that), then they meet the standard right on its face. Being written about in Chart is the Canadian equivalent of being written about in Rolling Stone. Seriously. Bearcat (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment Yes, but there is a problem: it is an article about a band with no label, no charted songs, no fan base, and some gigs in obscure or unidentified venues that have, without fail, gone unnoticed by the major media in every city where they've played. I am sure Chart is wonderful, but the band is just not notable. Ecoleetage (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
That's as may be, but Knowledge (XXG)'s notability standards do not require a band to have had mainstream chart hits, to be signed to a major label, to play only notable music venues, to generate local media coverage in every individual city where they play a show, or to be able to quantify a fan base in the millions. Those things obviously support notability when they're present, but the only thing that's required is non-trivial coverage in notable sources that are independent of the band, and that criterion is met here. And to look at one of the concerts that's actually mentioned in the Chart article, the Towne House in Sudbury — bless its crumbling foundations — is kind of an obscure venue, so let me assure you of this: Sudbury isn't a market where bands go out of their way to get a gig for the sake of getting a gig in Sudbury, because it's not a large enough market to pay for the trip all by itself. It's a "hey, what the hell, it's on the way from Ottawa to Winnipeg" market where bands only turn up as part of an organized national cross-Canada tour. So even an obscure venue can still support notability, if it's in a market where, by definition, non-local bands simply aren't even going to show up unless they're in the middle of fulfilling WP:MUSIC's tour criterion. Bearcat (talk) 21:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment: WP:BAND is a guideline to help interpret the ability of an article to meet the content policies of WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR; not to judge the fame nor the importance of the subject. If it has been noted in Reliable sources and somebody bothers to write the article, then there is no reason not to keep it. DoubleBlue (Talk) 21:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Nomination withdrawn Hey, it appears the race is run. :) Ecoleetage (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Osman Mehmood (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable college student. Could only find facebook links. Elluminate (talk) 16:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Superman.  Sandstein  13:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Übermensch! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unless I am mistaken, I cannot locate any evidence that is a notable short story -- no major awards, no film/TV adaptation, no influence on contemporary short fiction. Ecoleetage (talk) 13:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Note the "!" at the end of the title. – sgeureka 12:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  16:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy Delete per WP:CSD#A3, no content. Resolute 22:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Branislav Benčić (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A unsourced footballer, may be a hoax Matthew_hk tc 16:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Spartaz 16:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Marriage Privatization Model (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable neologism. One gets the feeling that this article is written by Lawrence Torcello who invented the term. The concept of treating marriage purely as a legal contract is probably fully discussed in other articles here in less pretentious language. — RHaworth (Talk

  • Delete - original research with no reliable source for notability.--Boffob (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:SOAP and WP:NPOV. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Tentative keep if all of the sources currently cited (and listed in the Sources section) are discussing the term in question and are reliable sources- I dont have access to verify. (And speculation about the identity of the author of the article is not appropriate WP:OUTING, WP:AGF, etc.) -- The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Aside from this contribution on the topic, Knowledge (XXG) lacks any reference to marriage privatization, and therefore, is incomplete in its coverage of the same-sex marriage debate. I am a new contributor to Knowledge (XXG) and have started to correct this gap by beginning with peer reviewed professional literature and expanding as time allows. The clear justification for an article on this topic is that it adds to Knowledge (XXG)’s incomplete coverage of an issue that is being heatedly discussed in U.S. politics since California’s rejection of Same-sex Marriage during the November elections. Obviously the concept of treating marriage purely as a legal contract is discussed elsewhere. This article is not about treating marriage purely as a legal contract. ~~Hermesmessage - — Hermesmessage (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. As noted in the article itself, Knowledge (XXG) already has articles on: Civil union Domestic partnership Same-Sex Marriage and California Proposition 8 (2008). This indicates the issued is addressed in Knowledge (XXG), contrary to Hermesmessage's contention. I see no reason per WP:N why this specific neologism should have an article. Also, Knowledge (XXG) is not a forum for political essays, no matter how relavent, so this article has no place here. Theseeker4 (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep I'm a little confused by the controversy over this entry. First, there's no "pretentious language" here. The language of debates on same-sex marriage, civil unions, et al, among political philosophers and social theorists, may be alienating to people as yet unfamiliar w/its terms, but this short entry is a model of clarity. Just do some reading. Second, it seems obvious to me that while "same-sex marriage" is a hot, much-discussed topic, there's very little out about marriage privatization, which is not handled in other Knowledge (XXG) articles but really ought to be (again, just do some reading). So, the use of references is exactly as one would wish: we see where to find the key figures debating the background theory and the published work in which the more singular argument (for MPM) is made. In sum then, this MPM is a valuable contribution to the literature as an alternative to civil unions, domestic partnerships, etc., and for just that reason it ought to be available here (I'm about to reference it in an article I'm preparing for an academic journal); but it is also an idea that's arisen in context, and that context is clearly cited. Perhaps I should add (in response to a talk comment) that I'm familiar w/the references made; they are to major contemporary and traditional ethicists and social philosophers and the ref'ed journals are top-tier, peer-reviewed standards. -- Iron Lion of Zion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iron Lion of Zion (talk • contribs) 01:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC) - — Iron Lion of Zion (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete as essay--the sources are very general, LoZ's reason for keeping--that he wants to reference it in an article he wants to write elsewhere, is about as improper reason for an article here as imaginable, and amounts to a clear declaration that its essentially his own original research. Things go the other way--if he can get an article on the subject published in a peer reviewed journal, then, a Knowledge (XXG) articlec ould refer to it, if someone else where to write it and think it relevant. DGG (talk) 05:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • merge+redirect into Civil Union, as: Marriage Privatization Model advocates legally-supported civil unions; Civil Union has no ethical / philosophical content at present. The redirect will provide access for any readers who remember that term. Ensure that Civil union Domestic partnership have "see also"s pointing to each other, and check whether Same-Sex Marriage should be included in this "web" of "see also"s. --Philcha (talk) 10:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Just points of clarification re: comments above. I'm not the author of the entry nor did I comment on it before my only comment above. Rather, I found the entry while doing an internet-wide search on civil unions and privatization, was intrigued by the warning of impending deletion at its top, and then put off by the reasons arguing for its deletion. Just "fyi" - I'm an academic with several books in print and a score of articles (i.e., not Wiki articles, but works in peer-reviewed journals and books); I mention this not to sniff the air from the ivory tower, but to make clear that any confusion about the appropriate order of operations for research and citation are not mine. Rather, what I thought I made explicit above was that, having not heard about the "MPM" before (and having published on domestic partnerships and civil unions), this entry was helpful in alerting me to the existence of that position. Obviously, since finding the entry and becoming curious about the position, I ordered the copy of Public Affairs Quarterly in which the original essay appeared, and obviously, any reference I now make to it will be to that scholarly journal, not to a Wiki. Since the ref to PAQ is in the very first line of the entry, it's pretty clear that the order of operations for which DGG is longing has already been followed. And since I'm closely familiar with the journal PAQ (it is one of the most important forums in my field of ethical theory) and w/the other thinkers cited in the entry, I figured it would be a good act of citizenship to take a moment to write a comment on the entry's behalf. Now, this will be my last such comment -I'll happily leave the fate of the entry to more committed editors from here- I only wanted to mark the way in which this entry did help me find an (I think important) line of published research about which I hadn't yet known. Finally, again just as a point of clarification, in addition to not relying on Knowledge (XXG) as a final source, I do not allow my students (I'm a university professor) to use Wiki references as (final) scholarly sources, though I do encourage them to cast their research nets widely, and then to follow them out exclusively to peer-reviwed, academic sources. The reason for this entails the possibility for unsound evidence or assertions that might arise when amateurs write on specialized topics. I find the potential for pluralism and the recreational interest of some contributors to be among the reasons for the wonderful strengths of Knowledge (XXG), but in the case of some of comments this entry has provoked, it is disturbingly obvious how unskilled or rushed readers might do damage to an idea, or might bar others from access to it. Iron Lion of Zion (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge+Redirect/or Keep It is truly interesting to see all of the feedback that this one post has generated! Adapting Philcha’s advice and per my previous contribution to this discussion I have already merged this entry with a larger entry I have prepared on Marriage Privatization. I hope that everyone will find this more general entry less “controversial.” In addition to merging the present article the article I have created chronicles the topic’s development, for over a decade, in more general media outlets. If the article discussed here is marked for deletion then this topic can be redirected to the article I have created. If the article being discussed here is deemed worth keeping then it can be linked as a See Also from the more general article I have created. I hope that one of these solutions will satisfy all involved. Regards ~~Hermesmessage —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hermesmessage (talk • contribs) 23:58, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
not every published article is notable. The paper by Torcello will be notable when it becomes a major subject of discussion and debate. Actually, the bar for individual academic papers is very high --we so far have limited them to a very few famous classics. Usually the author is the best choice for the subject for academic workers whether in science or socials science--and by WP:PROF it usually take not just one paper, but dozens, with dozens of citations each--or more, depending on the subject. If, on the other hand, and articles can be written on the general subject, we can judge it appropriately. Usually we seem to require a published discussion of the subject by multiple people--not just the proposer of the hypothesis. For this particular article as it stans, i continue to think the best course is a straightforward plain delete. DGG (talk) 06:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiredrawn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable band that fails WP:MUSIC and WP:V. Also nominating releases below. Nouse4aname (talk) 15:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiredrawn - Self Titled (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Leaving Here Without You (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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The result was delete. Spartaz 16:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

MtPaint (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Software does not appear to have been the subject of significant coverage in reliable publications (WP:GNG). Marasmusine (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Closed as moot for housekeeping. Redundant to Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Paolo Gislimberti. I am tempted to say delete here and keep on t' other, but once in a blue moon I can resist temptation. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Paolo Gislimberti (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Tragic though his death maybe I'm not sure it makes him notable? Paste (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


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The result was merge to Autodromo_Nazionale_Monza #Deaths from crashes. MBisanz 04:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Paolo Gislimberti (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Tragic though this may be I'm not at all sure his death makes him notable? Paste (talk) 14:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep. While the sourcing here could be improved - there isn't any now - he was a fire marshal at a widely followed sport who died in the course of his duties. This sounds like something that could be referenced to reliable sources, and Google News comes up with 30. Meets the biographical notability guideline. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I have a better understanding of what a race marshal does now. Someone can correct me on this, but it looks like he's the guy who waves the checkered flag, among other things. Usually, that type of honor and responsibility is given to a person who has been at a raceway for a long time. I would still say that no individual marshall would be that well-known (Indy 500 fans might know the marshall at the IMS, but I don't). However, I can forsee that the article Race marshall could be spun back out of Marshal if someone wanted to do so, and that article could make mention of Gislimberti, Van Vuuren, etc. Mandsford (talk) 17:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Sunday night sports wrap (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable radio program. Appears to be a once-a-week show on a college radio station. No references, only external links that have nothing about the show itself. Google search on show name plus the call letters turns up only this article. No independent indication of any notability. Contested PROD, removed by original author. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 14:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Delete I'm through wasting my time on this its only wikapedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.19.97 (talk) 03:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Vojislav Dragovic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A footballer without source to sport he exist or made his professional debut. Matthew_hk tc 14:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment Is source 1 copied from WP, or WP copied from source 1. Source 2 says he hasn't played, source 3 is non-notable--ClubOranje 23:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 14:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak delete for now. Now this is an awkward one. There's no doubt he exists, but has he played at a fully professional level? Some of the claims in the article have raised a few question marks. For example, it's claimed he played an instrumental part in FK Sarajevo finishing second in the Bosnian league, but according to the second of Darth Panda's links, he never actually played for them, and the claim he helped to bring Walter Zenga to Red Star Belgrade seems a bit fanciful too. I can't find any evidence of him making any first team appearances for Chievo neither. The bulk of links regarding this player seem to centre on this Free Kick Masters that he's involved with (along with some very notable players), but I don't know if that would be enough that see him through on WP:N grounds. So for now, it's a !delete from me. Bettia (rawr!) 15:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


Comment some source support that he played for Chievo youth team. But youth player is not notable yet. Matthew_hk tc 16:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment. If this source is true, he "was elected as the best goalkeeper and player of the league while with Sarajevo," giving him inherent notability for winning a fairly large award. "Best goalkeeper and player of the league" is like winning an MVP award, in my eyes. DARTH PANDA 20:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • It certainly would be, there's no arguement there. I just find it highly dubious that a player could win Player of the Year after only playing half a season! Also, the claim that he only conceded 4 goals in 16 games is also rather dubious - the only season FK Sarajevo finished second in the league was 2005-2006. Looking at the full results for that season, it's clear that more than four goals were conceded in their last 16 games. There's so much here that just doesn't add up - as well as failing WP:ATHLETE in my eyes, this article also fails WP:V. Bettia (rawr!) 09:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Dutch Sweets (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Notability of this company not established. No third party references. Borders on WP:SPAM. -- Mufka 13:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

John Mackey (mathematician) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I came across this page by chance (looking for George Mackey). But I don't see why this mathematician has a WP article. As far as I can tell, he does not meet WP:N or WP:PROF. If his contributions to Ramsey theory are important, they should be mentioned on that page. This is of course not a personal criticism of John Mackey, simply an application of the inclusion criteria. Simplifix (talk) 13:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 03:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Pastorius Park (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unremarkable Place. Dengero (talk) 13:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Cleverbot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Notability Issues. It's a chatterbot. And a momma bot. There's heaps out there and this one doesn't seem to be extra special. Dengero (talk) 13:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to ShaniDham. MBisanz 03:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Shanidham,raipur (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unremarkable Place, no results turned up in a quick google search. Dengero (talk) 13:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Footprints in the sand (hymn) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not meet the requirements of notability for songs. Also represents a conflict of interest as the article was written by the song's composer. WikiDan61ReadMe!! 12:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I declined the speedy because there are claims of importance in the article. Let the AfD run its course.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 18:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was speedy deleted as an attack page.- Mgm| 13:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Ramadonus kaleidos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An article which seems to claim that a new species has been created from a mutated human in North America! Google throws up no significant hits whatsoever on this subject (highly suspicious given the nature of this claim), and so I'm more than inclined to think that this is a hoax. Bettia (rawr!) 11:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Movie: the movie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable film, zero references, nothing of note from a google search. Reads like a school project made up by some teenagers some day. Request deletion. role 11:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Andy lim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Declined speedy, is CEO and chairman of several companies, which could mean he's notable, or at least a worthy merge target. 'Procedural nomination Mgm| 11:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Suvarnabhumi Airport Link. content already merged, good target. StarM 15:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

High Speed Airport Rail Link, Bangkok, Thailand (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Duplicates Suvarnabhumi Airport, with an unfinished, unwikified piece of text that can be scrapped without loss. Classical geographer (talk) 11:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Lee Cox (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
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The result was Speedied. لennavecia 19:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Jordan McKnight (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No reliable sources, and doesn't pass the criteria at WP:PORNBIO. Epbr123 (talk) 10:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. Ugh... active SSP case, recreations, etc. seicer | talk | contribs 14:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hosseini nassab (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This person's page is created again and again and again by this particular user, so let's figure out once and for all if they are notable.

I believe this person is not notable. I've tried searching for them and have found little information, being an Ayatollah in itself is not criteria for notability, and I see that the article mentions he has a certificate rather than a phd. So, I see some red flags, but if someone with more expertise in the subject of Muslim teachers could comment it would be very helpful. FlyingToaster 10:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: This person's name is actually Ayatollah Seyed Reza Hosseini Nassab. It has been created by Rezanasab with many different spellings due to speedy deletions. - FlyingToaster 10:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppet

I also note that this user who created this is likely a sockpuppet of User_talk:Rezanasab. - FlyingToaster 10:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Mercia Movement (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Due to related discussion and to centralise we need to also review:

Sovereign Mercia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Wessex Society (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Declined speedy. Debate on talk page was becoming a mini-AFD anyhow. No comment either way but this needs a debate not unilateral admin action. Pedro :  Chat  10:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that the debate taking place is about three very similar articles - Mercia Movement, Sovereign Mercia and Wessex Society. Can we have the debate for all three in the same place? ðarkuncoll 10:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Doing.... Pedro :  Chat  11:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 Done Pedro :  Chat  11:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there's no reason why editors cannot discuss deletion or merger of one article whilst recommending another should be kept. The discussion is centralised, but that does not mean that the outcome of the discussion will be the same for each article. Pedro :  Chat  14:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. A minor separatist movement apparently backed by a notorious cartel of Mercian coconut farmers.

    One source given in Sovereign Mercia is to Prediction magazine, apparently about the founding of the movement in 1985. The other, to the Birmingham Mail, apparently documents a 2007 name change. This level of activity does not suggest a separatist movement with a great deal of notability or support. The other sources are internal.

    If any are kept, surely Mercia Movement and Sovereign Mercia could merge. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. These articles all fail WP:VER and WP:N. In the case of Sovereign Mercia there are only 8 ghits, and I really don't think that a link to a local hockey website counts as an adequate reference! Mercia Movement is no better - few ghits and no references. Wessex Society might make the grade - most ghits are about something else but it does seem to have some level of activity so there might be acceptable references somewhere - but where are they? andy (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment. It is misleading to use Google as our only source, and the low number of ghits might simply be a result of the recent name change. I shall, in any case, continue looking for more citations. It would be a shame, I think, to lose these intrinsically interesting articles. Okay, I've just added another citation. ðarkuncoll 16:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I think you have misunderstood the policies on verifiability and notability. Firstly, Google is not a source. It's a tool for finding sources and a low number of hits means that reliable sources are likely to be hard to come by. Basically, nobody is talking about these societies on the web, which may well mean nobody is talking anywhere else either.
So sources will have to be found the old fashioned way. And what do we have for Sovereign Mercia? A 23 year old article in a mystical magazine, an utterly irrelevant link to a sports website which doesn't seem to mention the subject, and two references to local news articles which are unverifiable. The online archive of the Birmingham Mail has articles from September 12 2007 but none that mention Sovereign Mercia; and Central News doesn't seem to have an archive reaching back to 1994.
Mercia Movement is completely unsourced. Wessex Society now has one reference to a single sentence in the Sunday Times. Please read WP:N: "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". The Sunday Times is reliable and independent but a single sentence scarcely counts as signficant, and as far as the other articles go there is zero coverage as far as I can see. andy (talk) 18:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
The nature of the sources available depends entirely on the subject matter. I don't think any of these are unreasonable. ðarkuncoll 18:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Wessex Society has received significant coverage in the Western Daily Press, though not all none of it is archived on that newspaper's website Nick xylas (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Merely stating that there's significant coverage isn't enough - you have to reference it in the article so that anyone who wants to can check it. See WP:PROVEITandy (talk) 10:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this, and it is the reason why I thought an AfD was the better option to use for these articles to settle the matter more clearly and decisively. In effect the bluff is being called: if there are good reasons to keep them, then before this AfD is closed, one would expect to see the references and content being added to each article; if not, then I see no reason to keep any of them. You are being given time to add the content and references, and I suggest good use is made of this time.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll see what I can find in my clippings collection, and encourage others to do likewise. Nick xylas (talk) 13:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I've just checked the recently added references for Wessex Society. Not very good at all! One is a link to a gif of a small green map with some bits coloured red; another is a link to a newspaper article that requires credit card details before you can access it (I've removed the url); and another is a book where the society is given a couple of parenthetic mentions in single sentences - definitely not significant coverage. andy (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
The map wasn't recently added, it's been there a while. I have now added some more citations from my newspaper clippings file. Sadly I don't have URLs for them, but the Internet isn't the be all and end all of sources, and not everything is online.Nick xylas (talk) 02:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
That's not very nice now is it? There's no need to be nasty. Plus WP:IVENOTHEARDOFIT isn't an argument. Sticky Parkin 03:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy deleted as copyright violation. Most of the text was a verbatim copy of this page at the Tagbilaran Diocese. Subject may be notable and a possible candidate for a future article, about which I have no opinion at this time. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Our Lady of the Barangays (Virgen sang Barangay) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Notability is not asserted. No reliable sources were given. Alexius08 (talk) 10:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Abukar Omarsson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced article about a claimed former Swedish MP, however while trying to find anything on the subject can only find linkedin and facebook pages implying a hoax or an extreme stretch of the truth of the notability of the individual –– Lid 10:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. per WP:SNOW J.delanoyadds 04:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Celtictalk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable, recently created forum. Article cites no references, with the single external link, being to the official site. Created by an editor with an apparent WP:COI, the forum currently fails all 3 criterion on WP:WEB. (Note - article immediately recreated following a speedy deletion by RHaworth ) --Flewis 09:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete per WP:A7 by Kingturtle. Non-admin closure. DARTH PANDA 14:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

SQL View (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No material claims of notability, and media search doesn't provide more than a passing mention of the company or its products. Bongomatic 08:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Steve Bruce (disambiguation) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Disambiguation page that only points to one article. The second has been a redlink since the disambig page was created over 2 years ago, and it doesn't look like anyone plans to create it any time soon...... ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Jessica Nguyen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

College tennis player: Non-notable by WP standards. Almost all the articles cited as external links are all student newspapers, or are not independent of the subject. Ohconfucius (talk) 07:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Maritime Communications Reference Guide (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Maritime broadcast communications net does a better job, and the title is too unlikely for a redirect. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Blood Covenant (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I don't like doing this, but I cannot let this one go any longer. (Please don't think I'm biting anyone, I'm not trying to) This band has been borderline for a while now, but IMO, google searches turn up nothing notable. You will see many strange things involving blood and ritualistic things involved in various religions in this search. It fails WP:RS and WP:N. They are not signed to a notable label nor have they made any tours to gain any notoriety. They fail WP:MUSIC too. The article says they are related to Ayas but that is only because the lead vocalist did a guest session on a song or two from Blood Covenant. Delete Undead Warrior (talk) 07:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete--unfortunately, the article's unsigned advocate/author is not helping his cause, and his arguments have been pretty well refuted. I also don't see notability (yet). "Let others find sources"? Well, they tried and failed. No record label, no notable tours, no coverage --> no Knowledge (XXG) article. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I knew something looked strange. I nominated that a while ago and it was deleted. So, now after this is closed, Salt the article heavily. Undead Warrior (talk) 04:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Fall of Efrafa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable band. Fails WP:MUSIC, WP:RS, and WP:N. No notable label. No big tours. The article is full of OR. The genre's are even questionable. Delete Undead Warrior (talk) 07:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- Undead Warrior (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Labels aren't notable, fails WP:MUSIC guidelines. The listed interviews aren't independent sources (one of them specifically state that they encourage bands to request reviews). - Mgm| 08:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Pains me to say it, as the band sounds really interesting, but no, not notable; I'd tidied the article up but couldn't find any reliable sources for it. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I do not think that the reasons for deleting my entry are substantial enough. The entry is well written, points to references of a band with a large underground fanbase, with a notable and interesting concept. I do not think that just because this band is not known to you as individuals that this warrants deletion. The whole entire point of wikipedia is to learn, and the simple fact is that if this page gets deleted,someone else will put it back up. This band have completed noteworthy tours, two successful albums and have a very interesting message to forward. please do not delete this page simply because you have the power to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grilledvegetables (talk • contribs) 14:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
    Comment I don't think anyone above has suggested the article is deleted simply because they have not heard of the band; the issue revolves around notability as established through reliable sources. These sources have not (yet) been provided, possibly because they do not exist. Knowledge (XXG), as an encyclopedia, is obviously a repository of information, but its purpose does not include free advertising for any old band that fancies having a page on here. Finally, your suggestion that someone would just put the page back up is on shakey ground; replaced content would be speedily deleted and eventually the page would be salted to prevent its re-creation until the band does something of note. With that, I am going to order some Fall of Efrafa CDs :) Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
    Comment i am not in any way associated with the band, and i cannot see how you could see wikipedia as free advertising for a band! its an online encyclopedia. Im angry because i wrote a lot of this article because i felt that they deserved a decent online description. A lot was borrowed from the bands website and from an interview i did with them. I noticed some of the reasons why this was not worthy of an entry "No notable labels or tours" come on - that really is BS. DIY bands do not involve themselves with major labels or major tours. They have completed two euro tours and touring america next year. If you're truly a fan of independent music, you would KNOW how much work goes into touring, and releasing records. To say none of that is notable is a huge disrespect to bands, and DIY music. I have noticed so many bands on this site that have no notable reason for having a page, yet do have a page. I feel that this deletion has more to do with deletionists on a power trip, who don't like or know a band and therefor delete pages that don't fall into their field of what is deemed worthy. This undeadwarrior guy, using his wiki project on black metal as a reason for deleting fall efrafa- congratulations, you know a lot about black metal, but do you know anything about fall of efrafa, who take influence from ambient folk black metal? does this mean youll delete wolves in the throne room, velnias and agalloch's pages next? Its a shame, because i wished to contribute other bands and items to wiki, and now feel that there really isn't any point.
    Comment I think it's a real shame you feel that way, as we always need new editors for Knowledge (XXG). However, there's a few things you need to bear in mind; firstly, please read WP:MUSIC. If a band doesn't pass those (pretty lenient) conditions, then they shouldn't have an article on Knowledge (XXG). If a band refuses to do major interviews, sign to a notable label, do touring that is covered significantly by reliable sources, they are non-notable by choice and have no place here. Regarding your specific reference to the nominator, tread carefully and read WP:CIVIL. Finally, it seems unlikely that the bands you mention will get deleted given that they pass WP:MUSIC; Fall of Efrafa, at present and without further sourcing, do not. It's nothing to do with not liking them... as I stated above, they sound really interesting and I have just ordered both of their albums. They are simply not notable by Knowledge (XXG) standards. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete--I agree with Warrior and Baz. (And it is a WHOLE lot of words in that article.) When notability is not only achieved but also established (Grilledvegetables, that's the point of an encyclopedia--the dispersal of accepted and verifiable knowledge), then this article may return. Baz, I didn't see any tunes on the band's Myspace--burn me a copy when you get those CDs in, will you? ;) Drmies (talk) 15:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Mike Moorhouse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fictional character from a you-tube video. I couldn't fit this into a Speedy category, so am bringing it here. A google search for "Mike Moorhouse" and "Dan's Story" gives only this article. Other spellings of Moorhouse give nothing. I cannot therefore see how this meets the notability requirements. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 06:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 21:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

List of Power Rangers cast members (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

An article is not needed to list cast members of Power Rangers. A category would in fact serve better.

Also nominating:

—Mythdon (talk • contribs) 06:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Mark Erwin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

fails WP:BIO badly. no third party coverage in Australia as indicated by Google news search. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It's quite simple, Mark like any person with an article on Knowledge (XXG) must satisfy WP:BIO with reliable sources proving this. I haven't been able to find anything. secondly simply being a radio presenter is not necessarily notable. Michellecrisp (talk) 22:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted by me. The article is clearly something made up one day, and once the admittedly 'fictional' component is removed, there is no meaningful, substantial content. - Richard Cavell (talk) 07:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Turkster (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Knowledge (XXG) is not for fictional things you made up one day, but due to lack of an appropriate CSD tag and a contested prod I'm bringing this'n here. 1:1 odds on speedying by the end of the AfD; any takers? Ironholds (talk) 05:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Ironholds (talk) 05:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Gary Michael Schultz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Neither his music nor his film-making work (imdb) appear to pass WP:MUSIC or WP:BIO for creative professionals, respectively. There is nothing from which to expand this article to establish notability. Article was created as an auto-biography.StarM 05:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Diablog (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This comment is in response to this page having been tagged for speedy deletion. I am the author of the current definition and do not intend this to be advertising for a product. Do the reviewers not agree that Diablog could become a term of significant like 'blog' and that it could potentially be applied to any 2 person computer mediated dialogue, especially if it resulted in some form of publication. I would rather remove the reference to the product than have this potentially important term deleted, and will in the next day or two, try to construct a definition without reference to the product. Meanwhile if anybody else has opinions on this I will take them into account in constructing the new definition.

I have now updated the article. Please take another look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyandGrumpy (talk • contribs) 21:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Human Touch Comment (Keep)

This comment is also in response to this page having been tagged for speedy deletion. Why are you all so keen to speedily delete this entry for a term which will doubtless shortly be in common parlance? At this rate it is a wonder anything new gets in here; self-appointed censors are not constructive in my opinion. The definition of neologism is quite apposite and should be be acceptable in noting lanugage development. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Human touch (talk • contribs) 21:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Front Royal Interchange (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

While the interchange may exist, there's no evidence it's notable and while it's claim to notability is weak, there's no evidence of the veracity of that claim. While the highways it connects are notable, there's no reason to believe this interchange is. StarM 04:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 03:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Fusion Gaming Convention (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

There are a smattering of ghits and one news article, none of which convey the notability of this convention. StarM 04:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, part of my keep vote was influenced by the fact that the event seemed to be becoming established. However, in further reviewing their website I found, "Whenever all of us get together there are always talks about having another event and how much fun it would be. Unfortunately the talks usually end in us coming back to reality and realizing that we dont have enough time,money or manpower to host another event." And this indicated the event is no more, so probably it should in fact go bye-bye. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to KHMX. MBisanz 03:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Michele Fisher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Ghits counter the claim of being well-known and mixed with false positives only confirm existence and that there is a person with this name who does this job. No evidence she's notable. StarM 04:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Obvious hoax. The International Court of Justice document linked in the article does not include the words "grand", "duchy" or "machias". I would have G3'ed this if I had seen it on NPP. J.delanoyadds 04:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Grand Duchy of Machias (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Possible hoax, there is only one google hit for "Grand Duchy of Machias" and that is on Wikinews. Synchronism (talk) 04:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Rebecca Harris (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails notability as a chess player, no non-trivial press coverage. WP:ATHLETE says notability is achived by competing at the highest level, she has only achieved the relatively weak WFM title which doesn't even come close, and all her tournament wins are junior tournaments.

We've deleted people before with the WFM title like Catherine Lip, and even men with the higher FM title; in fact most men with the still stronger IM title don't have articles. And if you look at the crosstable of the Zonal where Harris got her WFM title (http://www.chesschat.org/archive/index.php/t-5079.html , see post of 12-05-2007, 12:31 PM) the tournament only had one player with an Elo rating over 1900, and she Harris came equal 3rd - not (IMHO) a result which confers notability.

Article was previously kept largely on the basis of press coverage, but the two press items offered were trivial: Penrith Press and Chessbase. Penrith Press is a local newspaper, one of the "Community Newspapers" published by News Limited. If it's anything like my local community newspaper, it has little stories on local junior athletes all the time, and this does not confer notability. Chessbase is indeed a notable chess publication, but if you look at the article in question, it is simply a background piece on the Australian contingent going to a large tournament. It's not clear why they profiled Australian players - it appears that it was simply because someone put together a nice photo piece and sent it in to Chessbase - but I don't see how one article automatically confers notability on the seven players they've profiled. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete. Not sufficiently notable at this time. She has potential to be notable by Knowledge (XXG) standards but I don't think she is there yet. Her success so far is in events limited by age, sex, and nationality. We (the chess project) usually include ones prominent by one of these (i.e. a junior champion, a national champion, etc), but not by three such limiting factors. Bubba73 (talk), 03:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. When a tournament is limited to someone of a particular age, and gender, and nationality, there is a good chance that it has excluded all the notable players, so that even winning that tournament is not a real claim to notability. The 1800-rating is well below master level, and far below the International Master level (~2400+) where notability starts becoming borderline. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC
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The result was delete. Spartaz 16:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Philip Schneider (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Philip Schneider died 12 years ago and before he died he claimed to have killed two aliens. This UFO-Alien-Conspiracy cruft fails WP:BIO and WP:V. BBiiis08 (talk) 02:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Making outlandish claims is not a criteria for keeping an article. As of now it just a bunch of conspiracy-cruft that fails WP:V. BBiiis08 (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say I believe the story... but the claim? I think there's something there worth listing.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
On what basis of WP:V, do you want to see this kept? BBiiis08 (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment- There are number of ghits from alien-related websites, but not a single news result on reaction to his claims. I am just wondering, was this whole a one sided affair? Was he ever criticized or responded by the government for his alleged role? Sleaves talk 18:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can see, there is no reliable sources on this. BBiiis08 (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Kennedale Independent School District. MBisanz 03:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Kennedale_Wildcat_Band (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The school appears unnotable and has not won any major national competitions, the article seems to have been created by a person of the school itself, possibly a band member. --Brandon (TehBrandon) (talk) 02:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 21:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Colorado Amendment 58 (2008) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Failed state legislation. Seems to fail WP:IINFO. -- Mufka 02:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Spartaz 16:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Steve Salisbury (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

fails WP:CREATIVE. his IMBD reference indicates very limited notability. Michellecrisp (talk) 01:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Nomination withdrawn, non-admin closure. Pcap ping 12:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Bad Science: The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No evidence that this book passes WP:BK. While it is a useful reference for the Cold fusion article, I don't see what justifies a separate article about it. Pcap ping 01:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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  • Merge with Gary Taubes, but get rid of the "table of contents." Cosmic Latte (talk) 03:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I lean toward keeping it, because it is a book by a notable author on a notable topic that happens, in my opinion, to be pretty good. However, I am not an expert in the minimum-notability-for-wikipedia department, so if others think it should go, that is OK with me. Olorinish (talk) 03:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect. If the table of contents is removed, there's not enough info left to sustain an article. - Mgm| 09:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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  • Redirect to Gary Taubes. Independent notability for the book not established. • Gene93k (talk) 11:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong keep on the basis of the reviews of the book in serious periodicals: Worldcat lists 3: Burr, A. F. 1994. "Bad Science: The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion by Gary Taubes". AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICS. 62, no. 6: 575.; Taubes, Gary, and Bruce V Lewenstein. "Bad Science: The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion." Isis. 86. 1 (1995): 144; Hoffman, N. J. "BAD SCIENCE The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion I." FUSION TECHNOLOGY -ILLINOIS-. 25. 2 (1994): 225. One professional magazine aimed at university teachers, the major history of science academic journal, and he speciality journal in the field. That's significant coverage indeed for something which is basically popular science. That's enough for notability by our standards. In addition, the book itself is found in 992 worldCat libraries, which is very substantial for a science book of this sort. I havent even looked for reviews in popular periodicals, but there are certain to be some. Reviews probe the notability of a book. The article needs rewriting, but that is , as always, possible. I see a certain trend here to nominate books for deletion tht happen to talk about subjects that some people would like to demphasise. That may not be the case here--I rather think the nomination was spurrred by the very low quality of the article, and the lack of attempt of it to find what seems to be very obvious sourcing. DGG (talk) 08:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


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The result was delete. MBisanz 21:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Croatian mafia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article is completely unreferenced, and makes wide-sweeping negative claims that are not neutral. Jeff3000 (talk) 01:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 21:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Legitimist line of succession to the English and Scottish thrones in 1714 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Multiple problems with this article. PatGallacher (talk) 01:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Among the problems with this article are: -it is original research, -since Knowledge (XXG) is not an indiscriminate collection of information, it is questionable whether even the "official" line of succession at any specific point is encyclopedic, never mind any rival line, -the term "legitimist" is dubious in this context. PatGallacher (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

AFD discussions have already lead to the deletion of similar articles, see Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Line of succession to James I, Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Line of succession to Henry VIII, and Line of succession to the English throne in 1701 was recently prod'ed without even going to AFD. PatGallacher (talk) 01:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep This article is most certainly NOT original research. Look at (for example) English Historical Documents volume 10, page 965, which presents exactly this information. This is not the only print version of this information. An example of an online version of this information is here. There are frequent references in English historical works to the fifty-plus people who were excluded from the succession in 1714 when the Elector of Hanover took the throne; this is most certainly not "an indiscriminate collection of information". If the word "legitimist" in the title is considered POV, then the page can be renamed; that is not a reason for deletion. Noel S McFerran (talk) 01:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep as noted by McFerran: if regular historical works treat with exactly this subject, it can't possibly be the kind of original research that we don't allow. Moreover, "legitimist" really isn't a POV term: it refers (if I understand rightly) to those who support the legal line of succession. See, for example, the legitimists of France: they supported a line of the monarchy that followed standard laws of succession. Nyttend (talk) 04:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep (noting that I am a proud Scot). This is not original research and the reference cited is a reliable source. McWomble (talk) 07:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - I am the author of this work and it is certainly not original research. This line and references to it have been made numerous times in various sources I have worked in. Considering that there has not been such a line available on Knowledge (XXG) before, I thought it proper to include one. Legitimist is certainly not a POV and I do not see at all how this can be viewed as "original research" when every aspect of the page is historically accurate. If someone does not like the style of the page, feel free to change it, but I believe this page fits perfectly with Knowledge (XXG) content.
    –Darius von Whaleyland, Great Khan of the Barbarian Horde 10:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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  • Comment Since it's clear that more than one person cares about this article, but that other line-of-succession articles are still subject to being nominated, I'll ask, what is the purpose of charting this type of information? I'm asking this as a neutral question, with no intent to sound critical of this aspect of royal genealogy, but other people will ask the same thing. Am I wrong in describing this is a list of 72 persons who were alive when Queen Anne died on August 1, 1714, with a ranking of how close to the throne each of them would have been at that particular moment (that is, if James Francis Edward Stuart had been crowned King)? I get the premise, but I confess that I don't understand the significance. Feel free to portray me as a dunderhead if there's something that I'm missing. Mandsford (talk) 15:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Your description of the list is accurate. The significance is that - but for the Act of Settlement 1701 - each of the first fifty-odd people would have had more right to the throne than the Elector Georg I of Hanover (who actually got the throne). This situation is often referred to in historical accounts of the period. Some people are interested in knowing exactly who these people were (especially considering the fact that they include the sovereigns or heirs of a number of European states). I have not argued for the retention of other historical succession lists - but this particular one is widely referred to in published scholarship. Noel S McFerran (talk) 18:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep I appreciate the explanation, and it does place this is context, which I hope will be added to the article. What I see is that (1) This is a line of people who were, in effect, barred from eligibility to the throne a law against Roman Catholic succession; (2) King George I would have been 57th in line had it not been for the law, rather than 1st; and (3) many of those first 56 who were disqualified were notable in their own right, with four of the first eight becoming monarchs in France, Spain, and Sardinia (the line for the 19th century Italian throne). Adding to that the fact that it is referred to as part of historical scholarship (and some of those references need to be added as well), it appears to be an expansion upon an encyclopedic topic. Mandsford (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment If we are to retain this page then Jacobite would be a better term that Legitimist, the latter term is widely used in French history but not British history, and terms like this are question-begging and POV in some contexts. PatGallacher (talk) 16:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - sourced, discriminate, encyclopaedic, historically significant. TerriersFan (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment -- The article deals with a legitimate issue, but I agree that "Jacobite" would be better than "legitimist". The constituional principle is that British Sovereignty rests in the Crown in Parliament. That was the decision under the Act of Succession, which makes the Hanoverian line the legitimate one. My first reaction was surprise that the Young Pretender and his Cardinal brother Henry did not appear, but I now see that it deals with persons alive at the accession of George I of England, who might have had a better right to the throne if Protestant. I do not think that this is well-expressed in the introduction, but that is an issue requiring the article to be improved, not deleted. REname and Keep. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. No consensus to delete. The discussion on renaming can continue on the article's talk page (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Double burden (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Sort of a neologism, or perhaps more correctly trying to define a reasonably common phrase with a particular defintion that is not universal. Weakly sourced (the web source doesn't even use the phrase "double burden"), seems more like original research. I don't see why this phrase with this definition deserves a Knowledge (XXG) page. Previously added PROD tag which was removed. Some guy (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment: Second shift only redirected to this title because Uncle G changed it today, without discussion, in response to this proposed deletion. I have restored the redirect to shift work. Some guy (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • A book written by Phyllis Moen, professor, McKnight Presidential Chair in Sociology, at the University of Minnesota, and published by the University of Wisconsin Press, is not a weak source for a sociology subject. This is an expert writing in her field of expertise. Moen uses the name "double burden". As do Weatherall, Joshi, Macran in Social Science and Medicine (1994 Jan;38(2):285–297) and Oropesa in the Journal of Family Issues (doi:10.1177/019251393014003006). And those were just picked at random. Barbara Engel, cited in the further reading section, is a professor at the University of Colorado, and she calls it a "double burden" on the very page number given in the citation. In the same book, on page 122, Judith P. Zinsser, professor at Miami University, and Bonnie S. Anderson, professor at the City University of New York, define "double burden" using that very name.

    The nominator has clearly made zero effort whatsoever in looking for sources, even after it was shown by example that sources exist. Xe hasn't even looked at the sources cited. Not following the instructions in Knowledge (XXG):Guide to deletion#Nomination, Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion, Knowledge (XXG):Deletion policy, and User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage#What to do will yield poor nominations such as this one. You should look for sources yourself before nominating articles for deletion. You do not help Wikpedia one bit by repeatedly nominating articles for deletion instead of working on improving them. Uncle G (talk) 13:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment: I agree with Uncle G that nominators ought to do their homework before heading to AfD. Having some background in sociology myself, I have a strong intuition that "second shift" is the more famous term; I'd never heard of "double burden," and must confess I have trouble distinguishing between the two, and thus don't understand why two terms are being used at all. The source I cited above uses them interchangeably. In any event, this is most certainly not WP:OR, so this should be a talk page discussion about whether to rename the article, about how to distinguish between "double burden" and "second shift," etc.—not an AfD. I encourage the nominator to withdraw. Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Wow, you guys are dicks. I did look through the web source, which doesn't use the term, as I said. I also did a web search for "double burden" and found pages on malnutrition, racism, obesity, etc. Most of the pages that come up seem to be related to income and nutrition and the relation between these things. I don't happen to have the book or be an expert in sociology, so I haven't done my homework and I don't know what I'm talking about? Apparently you both have sociology backgrounds and Uncle G has the very book. And yet look, Latte hasn't ever heard "double burden" used in this way.
I'm disgusted with you, "Uncle G". You repeatedly insult me in an unjustified manner and make ridiculous claims like I "made zero effort whatsoever". You don't know what I'm doing. I certainly haven't been screaming that this article should be deleted, I put in on AfD so rational civil people could discuss it. Some administrator. Some guy (talk) 20:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure the nomination was made in good faith, and I apologize if I seem to have implied otherwise. Different people will conduct different searches, which will yield different results. However, given the results that Uncle G and I came up with, it would seem that the appropriate place to discuss this article is Talk:Double burden rather than here. Cosmic Latte (talk) 11:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: renaming the article to "Second Shift" without the "(sociology)" bit would keep the same problem of it having a name that the average person wouldn't associate with the topic and seems more appropriately applied to a different area (i.e. shift work, which is where the second shift page appropriately redirected before Uncle G changed it). There's even a comment on the "double burden" talk page saying "second shift" should not redirect to it because "nintey-five percent" of users will not benefit from this counter-intuitive redirect. Apparently Uncle G is putting zero effort into what he's doing, since the "shift work" page still says "second shift" will redirect to it. Additionally, "first shift" and "third shift" redirects to "shift work", so it is extremely foolish to have "second shift" redirect somewhere else. EDIT: I have restored the 'second shift' redirect to 'shift work', as the change was made without discussion and contrary to previously expressed opinions. A proper discussion should be held before the redirect is changed. Some guy (talk) 20:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. MBisanz 03:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

List of Full House characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable. Non encyclopedic. Trivial. Knowledge (XXG) is not a collection of useless information   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 00:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Don't confuse notability with popularity. According to WP:N, "Notability is distinct from 'fame,' 'importance,' or 'popularity,' although these may positively correlate with it." In order to demonstrate such a correlation, reliable sources need to be presented. News coverage of the show in general is already of limited relevance to an encyclopedia, and doesn't imply the notability of minor characters, any more than news coverage of my hometown—a tourist town, so it's popular, too!—makes me notable. Cosmic Latte (talk) 17:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Until recently deleted, the primary Full House article had a sourced (Nielsen) list of ratings for the series, showing it was consistently within the top 30 shows. Why this was deleted I'm not sure, but surely is an indicator that it's not just presumed popularity? Perhaps that removal should be reverted also, was claimed as "fandom". dpwoodford (talk) 14:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. As per my non-vote comment above, precedent has been set for articles of this nature for long-running series. Content issues can be handled at the article level. AFD is to determine if an article is viable, and based upon precedent it is. 23skidoo (talk) 16:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep' a perfectly justifiable fork of a notable television series. Alansohn (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep About a dozen characters appeared in the opening credits, and there were many other recurring characters who are mentioned in independent sources. This seems like a valid spin-out from the main article. It could use some cleanup, but AFD is not for cleanup. Zagalejo^^^ 23:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep I removed the original deletion, apologies if I went about it the wrong way, but my points pretty much covered here. List of characters from a TV show is notable on precedent if nothing else. Possibly clean-up required (though I don't object to it being as extensive as possible), but deletion absolutely incorrect. Dpwoodford (talk) 02:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete or at least trim severely. Bloated article that has little relevant to do with why Full House is notable, even if Full House is in fact notable enough to warrant all these sub-pages. Much of the information even appears defined improperly: "Pam is seen only once in the series, portrayed by actress Christie Houser in the episode Goodbye Mr. Bear in a home video, which depicts Pam and Danny returning from the hospital with newborn baby Michelle...," is listed under Recurring characters even though she only appeared once—clearly not recurring. Bolwerk (talk) 06:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Wow. You've not made any contributions under this username in almost a year--welcome back. What motivated you to pick out this AfD to comment on upon your return? Jclemens (talk) 08:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment Editorial changes and merit can be discussed subsequently on the article discussion (I assume recurring was meant as features regularly by name, but not in person, not sure if this is defined in WP guidelines somewhere). Nonetheless, not sure how this warrants deletion. Does any character list (24 etc) serve to prove notability? dpwoodford (talk) 11:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Its a major sitcom that ran for 8 years. During this time there were obviously many plotlines and many characters. Conceivably we could get it all into one article, but that would probably be book-length. The only way to handle subjects of this sort is to divide up the material in some reasonable way, and to separate the characters is an obvious step. Its the coverage of the fiction as a whole that has to b=include more than plot, and it does--the part of the coverage discussing the plot and characters will just discuss the plot and characters. I think a number of us regard this entire show as unfortunate--personally, I regard the entire genre as unfortunate--but t his shouldn't affect how we handle it, if people who are willing to watch it are willing to write the articles. I gather from one of the comments above that there may be inaccuracies, and there solution is of course to fix them. DGG (talk) 08:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete A useless list of characters and other trivia from a not very popular show. Completely un-encyclopedic.MiltonP Ottawa (talk) 07:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. –Juliancolton 01:23, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Active Lancer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unremarkable Game. I would have filed a speedy delete except there was no such option haha. Dengero (talk) 02:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Two of the references are by the same person. In none of the references is it described by itself, all are announcing releases of several games. As I said, notability is not indicated by the article. Are there any favorable reviews noting public interest in this game? The article itself states it was an unsuccessful game.Synchronism (talk) 04:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. The references still represent significant coverage, even if other games are discussed in the same references. {{WP:N]] says: "Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive." -- Eastmain (talk) 04:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete The guidelines state that the coverage must be non-trivial. The provided sources, and the other references I found in a gsearch are all trivial, short reviews among many or sites to download the game. This fails the notability standards, unless a better, non-trivial reference can be found. Theseeker4 (talk) 15:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep I don't see any rationale for deletion. No assertion of importance might work for speedy, but for an AFD some indication that sources were looked for first would be helpful, since notability is the issue. Though I'd agree that what is in effect a single source does not cut the mustard in relation to reception, there's an in-depth review on Inside Mac Games which google spat out as the first result when I searched for the game's name along with 'game' and 'review'. Someoneanother 17:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - I'm happy with the MacWorld and InsideMacGames reviews as they appear to be reliable sources, and are substantial enough to satisfy WP:GNG. The NYT ref was merely a publisher's description, so I have removed it. Marasmusine (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak delete — If additional sources can be found besides the good coverage from MacWorld, I'll be happy to change to keep. However, the general notability guideline recommends multiple sources, so I am inclined to side on the deletion side for now. MuZemike (talk) 04:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
What about the inside mac games review above? Someoneanother 15:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Spartaz 16:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Plushgun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article on band with only one, so-far-unreleased, album. No real sources attesting to notability. CalendarWatcher (talk) 01:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

*Delete As per one unreleased album. If I'm being misled by nominator they should be severely punished!ChildofMidnight (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

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Comment With this new source, Plushgun has been the subject of two nontrivial publications (the other being from Spinner.com, here: )about Plushgun's relationship to Ourstage and Tommy Boy Records. Another article from NPR talked about the band , but not about how Plushgun was signed by Tommy Boy Records. Noneforall (talk) 22:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:MUSIC, articles in college papers are "generally.. considered trivial". The new source is the UWM Leader. —Hello, Control 21:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. MBisanz 20:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

B.N.F (J-Com man) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

non-notable. StarTrain1 (talk) 04:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 20:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Scale relativity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable, fringe theory that has not received notice from outside sources and so therefore does not belong in Knowledge (XXG). ScienceApologist (talk) 13:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. absent significant third party coverage Spartaz 17:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

AfDs for this article:
Vulture's (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article does not explain how this software is notable (WP:N), nor provide any references, 3rd party or otherwise (WP:V) Marasmusine (talk) 15:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

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  • Keep it is a very meagre stub, but I believe it has some potential. Hopefully the games WikiProject will show it a little TLC in the near future. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 01:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Darth_Panda and nom. I don't see the "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" that would take this over the notability bar; the article is unreferenced, and doesn't even assert notability for its subject. This is one open-source software project amongst thousands, with nothing to prove that it significantly stands out from the crowd. EyeSerene 15:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I've not a clue about this subject, but don't leave it a redlink: if it's deleted, it would be quite reasonable to recreate as a redirect to Vulture. Nyttend (talk) 00:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep or Merge/Redirect: Vulture's Eye is a graphical user interface for Nethack, which is notable enough to have its own Knowledge (XXG) entry; failing keep it should redirect to Nethack with a suitable merged section.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 02:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Note also that Falcon's Eye, an earlier Nethack GUI, has its own article as well (albeit a stub); if that is notable then so is Vulture's Eye.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 02:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Did a real quick check. Falcon's Eye has an article written about it published by O'Reilly . It doesn't mention either Vulture anywhere, so I don't see how this is notable if that is. Marasmusine (talk) 10:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
        • That article was written many years before Vulture's existed so there's no way Vulture's could have been mentioned. Falcon's Eye development ceased, Vulture's Eye is a continuation of that source code. Everything that Peltonen "envisioned" as cited in that article by yourself, has already been implemented in Vulture's Eye. entro-p (talk) 12:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I know this is probably the wrong place for such questions, but I find I need to ask. Vulture's refers to two projects. Vulture's Eye (NetHack) Vulture's Claw (Slash'EM). It's the same interface, but for two game engines. If it was to merge would it have to merge twice, into NetHack as well as into Slash'EM? entro-p (talk) 07:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't suppose anyone has found any coverage of the type suggested by the WP:GNG, yet? Marasmusine (talk) 23:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

  • A google search for Nethack and "Vulture's Eye" produces some 1300 hits, most of which appear to refer to the installation or inclusion of the package under Windows, MAC OS, and several different flavours of Linux (Red Hat, Gentoo, Ubuntu), or to the difference between Falcon's Eye (now defunct) and Vulture's Eye. I don't know if that qualifies for general notability.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 05:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. consensus was a clear delete before re-list. Does not need another five days. StarM 04:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Alive board (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Skateboard style product, mentioned on someone's blog. Not notable. Oscarthecat (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, looks like product spam. JBsupreme (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong keep I cleaned the article up a bit. Notable and interesting. Should be improved with more and better references and in-line citations. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete Seems like spam of product, most hits are either youtube videos of the product or advertisements themselves, however, may be unique enough to be notable. I lean towards deleting however due to a lack of independent sources indicating notability, would vote keep if these can be provided; I couldn't find any from a google search. Theseeker4 (talk) 19:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
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  • Delete as it doesn't have enough notable context to be what I consider encyclopaedic. To salvage the 'notable and interesting' bits one user commented on I'd remove all the spam links at the bottom (called 'sources' in the article), then merge what's left into the most appropriate of the four 'see also' articles. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete: Sourced, yes, but not per WP:RS. Are there any third-party publications demonstrating notability? Cosmic Latte (talk) 01:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep as geographical articles are inherantly notable. If you have problems with the article, take it to the talk page first. Also this cites no relevant policy and is not formatted properly. ~the editorofthewiki ~ 21:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

:Gouillons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This page is so simple it is useless: Gouillons is a commune in the Eure-et-Loir department in north-central France.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Encyclopedia77 (talk • contribs)


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  1. ^ Martin K. I. Christensen (2008-07-22). "WOMEN IN POWER: 1900-1940". Worldwide Guide to Women in Leadership. Retrieved 2008-11-17.

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