Knowledge (XXG)

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The result was delete. Leave me a message if/when he makes his Bremen debut and I'll restore it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Markó Futács (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Player fails notability at WP:ATHLETE having never played in a fully-professional league/competition Hubschrauber729 (talk) 23:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  22:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Maine 4 President (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable album with little context. Gordonrox24 |  23:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. the delete arguments shade the transwiki comments, since this is isolated text, im not entirely clear how it fits Wikibooks but can be persauded to undelete if someone is willing to do the transwiki Spartaz 19:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Derivative (examples) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article doesn't look encyclopedic. Knowledge (XXG) is not a place for learning resources. -- Taku (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that step-by-step computations of the derivatives of f ( x ) = x 2 ,   f ( x ) = x {\displaystyle f(x)=x^{2},\ f(x)={\sqrt {x}}} and so forth might be copyrighted?? (Maybe you're punning on the word "derivative"?) Plclark (talk) 12:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Delete --JForget 22:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The Still Night's Aurora (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Appears to be a MySpace Band, which fails WP:BAND per lack of secondary sources establishing WP:NOTE. Nominated here (instead of speedy delete) per request by secondary editor. Could still qualify for speedy deletion. Plastikspork (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  22:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Chameleons Eye (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unremarkable news photo service business for single photographer. No (zero) Google news hits. Google searches turn up similarly named but unrelated award. I was unable to find significant coverage of this company. Article created by User:Clairebenari, business owner is Rafael Ben-Ari. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was Nomination withdrawn. The article has been reverted to a version prior to the promotional copyright violation. Thryduulf (talk) 18:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Greater Eston (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

'Greater Eston' isn't a place as such, but seems to be a neologism. I'm not sure if it's notable (despite many Google hits) or encyclopedic (this isn't actually a place; just a term). Thoughts? Computerjoe's talk 21:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. With a strong consensus that there is no possibility this article could be salvaged to survive WP:NOTHOWTO; an early closure seems appropriate under WP:SNOW ~ mazca 06:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

How to dominate at ludo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

wikipedia is not a how-to site WuhWuzDat 20:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Jonas Brothers. (X! · talk)  · @012  ·  23:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Mandy (Jonas Brothers song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

With no chart performance or covers, it fails WP:MUSIC, and with no significant media coverage, it also fails WP:GNG. Notability is not inherited. --Pokerdance (talk/contribs) 20:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, I'm afraid I disagree. While I do agree in the sense that, indeed, notability is not "inherited", neither does notability create itself. Notability can often occur retroactively with regard to works that a person had done earlier in his or her career that did not become recognised until later on when the person had become famous for something else. A good example is Tennessee Williams, whose first major success was "The Glass Menagerie" in 1945; after this, he was a household name. However, he wrote quite a wealth of plays prior to this, with little success. Yet, now that Mr. Williams is an American literary legend, almost all of his works, obscure or well known, have an article devoted to them. For instance, two of Williams' early plays, "Fugitive Kind" (1937) and "Not About Nightingales" (1938) were not at all popular when first released, and were not even produced on stage for many years. To my knowledge, "Fugitive Kind" has still never been performed on any notable stage to this day. Yet they have articles devoted to them. Why? Because Mr. Williams is so famous that it is appropriate for even his lesser works to still have an area where they may be sought out and researched. Compared with the article in question, this Jonas Brothers song seems far more notable. Like Tennessee Williams and many other people, the Jonas Brothers enjoyed success after their second album's release, and thus the first one is relatively obscure. But since they are such a global phenomenon, it is more than appropriate to have an article devoted to individual songs even on this first album, such as "Mandy". Indeed, it makes more sense; one of Knowledge (XXG)'s main strengths is that it is a resource people can turn to when they need information about a topic that may not be available elsewhere, such as information about this song. Indeed, it is for precisely this reason that I found the article in the first place. I heard it, wanted to read more about it, could not find much about it on most websites, went to Knowledge (XXG), and voila! This is Knowledge (XXG)'s strongsuit, and it seems counterproductive to take articles such as this down, especially when I have already mentioned how a precedent has been set with such articles as those about obscure Tennessee Williams plays which are nonetheless deemed worthy of articles. Besides, it is not as though this song were that obscure; it was released as a single, and its music video on YouTube has had over 3,300,000 plays to-date! If that is considered obscure, then I certainly can't fathom what you consider constitutes "notable". --R.h.c.afounder1 (talk/contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 05:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC).

Well, if you don't know how Knowledge (XXG) deems a song notable, maybe you could start here.  Esradekan Gibb  09:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
In additon, you'll probably also want to check out
Perhaps it should be redirected to It's About Time (Jonas Brothers album) instead? Pokerdance 20:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • For the record, while it may not have been a significant cover version, this song was in fact covered by The Hit Crew and is available for purchase on Itunes. Two karaoke versions of the song are also available on Itunes. By the way, I took a look at the notability requirements for albums and songs. According to the guide, it says that "notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article." Say what you will about this song's notability, but it is irrefutable to say that there is not enough information about it. Indeed, it is much longer and more informative than many article stubs I have seen. --R.h.c.afounder1 (talk/contribs)
    • Exactly: verifiable material. There is only one reference in this article, and it's to confirm the release date. There is barely any sourced information, and thus this article is not notable.
And The Hit Crew are not notable enough artists. The criteria involves two independent, notable artists recording the song. The Jonas Brothers are the only notable group to do so. Pokerdance 04:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment - What is the basis for stating that "The Hit Crew are not notable enough artists"? They are notable enough to have a Knowledge (XXG) article. I am not aware of any guidelines requiring more notability (how much more?) for a cover band under WP:NSONGS than to have a Knowledge (XXG) article altogether. Rlendog (talk) 15:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Redirect - after merging the first paragraph with Jonas Brothers. I don't think this article quite meets WP:NSONGS, even counting The Hit Crew cover, since the guideline mentions being recorded by "several" notable bands. And I am not sure that "two" necessarily qualifies as "several". Three definitely, but with two I'd want to see at least some other indication of notability, and I don't. Maybe that is the Jonas Brothers' first single, but that can be addressed within their own article. The second paragraph of the article would seem worth merging too if reliable sources can be added for it. But if multiple reliable sources are added for that, then this article should be kept under WP:N. As for the title, that should not be any problem from a redirect perspective. The title is consistent with WP:DAB and is the title any experience Wikipedian would look under for this song if they realized that there are several popular songs by the same name. Rlendog (talk) 15:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. The actual discussion has been hidden from view for privacy reasons but can still be accessed by following the "history" link at the top of the page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page..
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The result was keep. WP:SNOW close, with this many "Keep" votes, this is not going to result in any other outcome. Lankiveil 07:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Triple J Hottest 100, 2009 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A compilation of subjective votes, not a list of objective statistics, it is therefore a copyright violation by virtue of being the intellectual property of the compiler. It has been claimed that this is not a copyright violation since it's being written on this page by people listening to the radio over the air, and not by copying it from a Triple J official source, but the compilation itself is copyrighted. It's also claimed that this is the station's playlist, and therefore it is not copyrighted, but that is not true. It's also claimed that although this page says You may save a local copy or send it to your printer for your own personal use or in order to inform authorised and potential users about the ABC materials. However, you may not make any charge for such use and any commercial exploitation is expressly prohibited. You must include the copyright notice in any copy that you make. You may not modify the information found in ABC materials without the express permission of the ABC., since Knowledge (XXG) does not intend to use it for commercial exploitation, it's okay to put here, but that's not compatible with Knowledge (XXG)'s licenses, and would make it impossible for this page to be copied by commercial forks, which is a violation of Knowledge (XXG) copyright terms. When I pointed that out on the article's Talk page, I was told, Oh my goodness this article is staying, just get over it, it's a list of songs, get over yourself . Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Also included in this AfD are:

---> There is no 1992

It does not include Triple J Hottest 100, which is the correct way to report these lists. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep It is understandable that a list compiled by an individual or group of 'experts' should be subject to copyright, but the fact remains that this list is voted on by the public and the results are publicly available over a range of broadcast mediums. Due to it being a list compiled from public votes, the list itself should not be subject to copyright.Jimboss123 (talk) 00:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep TripleJ Hottest 100 lists have a significant historic value and are broadcast over public radio waves. The list is reproduced by numerous news organisations in Australia and around the worlds. Sesh (talk) 00:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Note: Keep is not a valid option under Knowledge (XXG) copyright policy unless all of these redirect to Triple J Hottest 100. Should an admin decide that they want to keep this, I will immediately list it at WP:DRV. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Please note that this list is produced by a fully publicaly funded government broadcaster (the ABC). It is forbidden for this broadcaster to advertise and it can receive no conceivable revenue from this list (it does tend to sell a CD containing parts of hottest 100 lists but this page can't possibly have any impact on sales of that CD).

Even if the above copyright discussion is correct, and I'm not convinced that it is, I've written to the ABC's legal department to see if they can provide a copyright waiver. They should be willing to do so. Please do not delete these lists until I hear back from them. 152.91.9.115 (talk) 00:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Funny they seem to think they have the right to copyright their material. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:04, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Although I agree that the copyright notice may apply to this list, it should also be noted that this notice was no doubt intended to protect other aspects of what the ABC does. ABC not only runs a number of radio stations, but also 3 TV channels and a large news gathering organisation. Not to mention the production of a number of Australian television and radio programs. I'm sure that they will give permission for these lists to be released into the public domain or under a Knowledge (XXG) compatible license. Sesh (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The argument for deletion is that copyright exists upon this work because of Triple J's effort in preparing and broadcasting of the list. However, Copyright does not prohibit the independent creation of a substantially similar or identical work, provided there is no actual reproduction or copying of the original work by any means.

    The original work was presented in the form of a radio broadcast. The individual pieces of information (the song artist name and song title) contained within that broadcast cannot be copyrighted, regardless of the format in which it was presented. Copyright protects the particular manner in which the information was arranged and presented.

    In addition, the information presented in the various list articles independently researched and written for Knowledge (XXG). The articles contain additional information that distinguishes the article from the original work. The labour and skill of the article author(s) in compiling this information further distinguish these articles from the original work.
    Keep --Camson (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
    • I think it'd be hard to argue that we are violating their intellectual property in reproducing the list when the list is clearly called the "Triple J Hottest 100", indicating implicitly that it is a production of Triple J, and links to the site where they publish that information themselves. We had a similar argument recently about the ARIA Charts and range of related categories (where I'll admit I was the one to raise the copyright question) and I sought a legal opinion from the Foundation's counsel on it which basically said it was defensible (it's a case of not going overboard with the thing and keeping within sane limits, I guess.) Orderinchaos 03:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep See IceTV Pty Limited v Nine Network Australia Pty Limited 2009 HCA 14 (22 April 2009) para 42 and 43 for the Australian High Court's view on what constitutes originality in the expression of factual information. In this instance the only part that is original is the ordering of the songs. This material in this list is highly similar to that of the IceTV case, which the High Court has ruled did not violate copyright. Joshua mckinney (talk) 02:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_2008 for a recent US chart that had similar copyright concerns where wikipedia's decision was to keep the article. Joshua mckinney (talk) 03:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
      • Billboard Year-End Hot 100 singles of 2008 has nothing to do with this, since the Billboard list is based on sales, not a subjective vote. And the IceTV case again has nothing to do with this, since that has nothing to do with a subjective vote. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
        • So we should delete all election results in Knowledge (XXG) as well? They are afterall a list of political parties ranked by a 'subjective vote'. Meatsacks (talk) 07:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
        • The compilation that you are asserting is a covio is a not the individual subjective votes, but is the collection of facts that have been generated by people that have gathered that information. The page under discussion presents that each fact as 1. Artist - Title. This form of presentation is "not a form of expression which requires particular mental effort or exertion" to quote the HCA decision mentioned previously. In addition the decision states: "Whether a selection or arrangement of elements constitutes a substantial part of a work depends on the degree of originality of that selection or arrangement. In this case, a chronological arrangement of times at which programmes will be broadcast is obvious and prosaic, and plainly lacks the requisite originality.". In a similar fashion, an ordinal arrangement of tracks which have been voted on by the public in the order by which they have been voted is likely to satisfy the same logical standard.Joshua mckinney (talk) 07:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
        • Why is a list compiled from me (and thousands of others) buying a single or album any different in its compilation than a list of songs compiled from me (and others) submitting a web form indicating a preference for songs? Both are subjective... If anything Triple J are using other people's work insomuch as deciding a favourite song is some minimal effort on the part of voters (although presumably they agree to grant the ABC a right to use the vote for their poll). My opinion of my favourite song is subjective, yes, but comparison analysis of thousands of sales/opinions/votes constitute a fact. --Canley (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Stong Keep for all Hottest 100 articles - based on arguments above re: NOT violation of copyright, and in being a very significant historical event in Australian music and radio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.29.89.49 (talk) 03:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep per above arguments. Rebecca (talk) 03:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep but perhaps restructure - it's not a copyright violation, but needs to be presented in a fashion which appropriately represents Knowledge (XXG) policy. The Triple J Hottest 100 is one of the largest radio polls in the world, and songs which perform well on it wear it as a badge of honour, so there's no question of notability. Orderinchaos 03:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep I don't think this is at all a clear cut case of copyright violation as the nominator seems to think. The IceTV v. Nine Network decision of the High Court of Australia cited above seems to be the most reasonable precedent to apply in this case, and other Australian media outlets (such as the Sydney Morning Heraldand the Herald Sun) seem to have no problems with reproducing the lists in their entirety. If they did so with the ABC's permission, then surely it is possible that such permission can be obtained for Knowledge (XXG). As someone said on the discussion page, should we not publish election results for copyright reasons? They are also compiled from public voting by an Australian government organisation. --Canley (talk) 03:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep This is no different to recording the results of an election- does Knowledge (XXG) need to count the votes itself to be legally allowed to post them? --Mossmaal (talk) 12:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
It has been sent to WP:OTRS, that was the link referred to in the quote i made above, i just put it here to update people on Triple J's stance on this issue.Jimboss123 (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You know, I have no problem with keeping these lists if ABC releases them. Until such a time, they're a copyright violation. Why people feel this has to be taken personally, I don't understand. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Probably because it's painfully obvious Triple J / The ABC have no problem with them being thereand yet you're persisting they should be deleted Geshpenst (talk) 05:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
And I don't understand why you chose to bring a sectional copyvio issue to afd. The article(s) are notable - they should exist and cover the issues/timing/number of votes etc of each year's vote. Whether or not the full list is published is a separate issue for the real lawyers to sort out.The-Pope (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Really? I tried to db-copyvio the 2009 one, but that got reverted. How else would this be resolved? Copyright violations are taken to AfD all the time, this is the appropriate venue. And you haven't answered my question as to why this is so personal that people feel the need to assume bad faith and make attacks. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
No one is attacking you - just disagreeing with you. To be fair, if the ABC doesnt have an issue with it, then there is no reason to delete the artice. As has been stated on numerous occasions, it is a significant article that has been referenced. The list is made public as soon as it it broadcast on the friggin radio! Just because it is being recorded on wiki does not make it a violation of copyright. You're not being attacked, you're just being stongly disagreed with on a ridiculous proposition... Take a teaspoon of cement and harden up princess - Ck786 (talk) 06:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Probably because it is personal. It's our ABC, my 8 cents (or $1.20 with inflation) a week, my vote that got that song in the top 100, my triple j rocks etc etc. Not that any of that excuses personal insults, of course.  florrie  06:25, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Nobody's attacking me? Really? Who then was a gentleman?=OWN3D... That is all... Keep - Ck786 Keep - since the person suggesting that we delete this is a turkey, and turkeys should not have a say in what happens. 203.192.80.31 Not to mention your dickish comment right above this. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
"Not to mention your dickish comment right above this. Who then was a gentleman?" - Is this not a personal attack of your own?? Fail. Stop winging... Ck786 (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
More history here: http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hottest100_08/history.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ck786 (talk • contribs) 06:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. I can't believe this is even being nominiated. The lists are published everywhere and anywhere. -- Chuq (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: Mr Gentleman, your initial reply of "Keep is not a valid option under Knowledge (XXG) copyright policy unless all of these redirect to Triple J Hottest 100. Should an admin decide that they want to keep this, I will immediately list it at WP:DRV" is a huge bad faith assumption on everyone else. We have opinions, we all can read the policy. We all can vote. You should not decide on our behalf - nor threaten DRV involvement during the debate. As for where this debate should be happening... well Knowledge (XXG):Copyright problems would an obvious starting point. A question to ask yourself is "Would you want the article deleted if it was exactly as it is today, but without the full list of songs in a table?" If the answer is no, then AFD shouldn't have anything to do with the article. (and if you claim AFD for no WP:RSs, then in a day's time when the #1 song is announced, I bet there will be plenty of RS to back up the notability of the article.)The-Pope (talk) 06:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep The list is compiled by people listening to the radio in real time and is not a reproduction of materials from the ABC website. The copyright notices linked to by Gentleman are for the website and cover website materials. The compilation of the results by Wikipedians is not a violation of the terms of copyright, nor is use of Knowledge (XXG)'s compilation for commercial purposes. For results on the latest poll, results have been posted in real time on Facebook and Twitter, indicating that they are not covered by the ABC Online's copyright notice.DrDoogle (talk) 07:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep per other lists of award winners. I'm thinking in particular of the Oscars, but there are many others. Orpheus (talk) 08:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. The Triple J website is not the sole source of these results - they are being released in real time via the @triplej Twitter feed, collated by individual listeners and will also be publicly disseminated at the conclusion of the countdown. Relying solely on the ABC website copyright as a reason for deletion is highly disingenuous. Furthermore is it questionable how the use of a list of facts by a commercial entity can be considered "exploitation". Rjbsmith (talk) 02:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep Without doubt should be kept and furthermore Mr Gentlemen should be blocked/deleted as he quite clearly doesn't have the intelligence to necessitate a wikipedia account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marlin14 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommyc (talk • contribs) 06:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This list was compiled from public votes by a Government-funded public broadcaster, and disseminated freely via many media. There is no copywritable editorial contribution to the list unless the voting was rigged. It's impossible to imagine any kind of legal problem unless the material was misattributed or substantially misrepresented. TheDewi (talk) 07:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Delete --JForget 22:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Jaime Anstead (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nonnotable actress with short resume playing mastly unnamed or first-named characters, judging only by the refs and sources, negligible third-party sourcing (and "racksandrazors.com" suggests what those sources are interested in.) Borderline speedy. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 19:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Dawn Geary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article was PRODed by User:Mikedrakel on 1 July 2009 with the comment, "individual does not wish to be listed on wikipedia". That PROD was contested by me on 2 July with the comment, "PRODer's only contributions have been to this page, most of them vandalism." Mikedrakel then placed {{db-author}} on the page on 9 July; this was removed by User:Cunard with the comment, "this article cannot be speedied under {{db-author}} because significant contributions have been made by Cnilep to this page." In the seven days since I contested the original PROD, however, I have only been able to locate one (sort of) reliable source. Therefore, since the subject fails WP:Notability (people), I support deletion. Cnilep (talk) 18:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Shahzada khurram (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

non notable individual - page appears to be purely to advertise him. speedy delete removed without explanation by anon editor. noq (talk) 18:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was speedy deleted twice (CSD A7) and salted. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The Band Nee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Talk page makes a claim of notability, but I have seen no support for such a claim. I speedied the article, which was contested; the speedy tag has since been removed by an account whose only edits have been to this article. I didn't want to re-speedy it, so I'm bringing it here instead. --User:AlbertHerring 17:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Deville (Talk) 01:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Pirate Party of the United Kingdom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unregistered single issue political group. While some other Pirate Parties are registered, this one is not - it's just a group of people giving interviews, and is not officially registered with the authorities. At minimum, therefore, the name is misleading. It also has minimal press coverage - the party leader has given a few quotes to newspapers, but the party itself has not had a non-trivial mention anywhere I can find. I should also note that they don't even have a manifesto yet. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep. While PPUK is not registered at the moment, registration is ongoing and it will be registered around the end of this month; if non-registration is the criterion for deleting this article, does it really make sense to delete this article and then re-instate it a fortnight later? As to not finding a manifesto, did you not look here or here? -- Cabalamat (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Please read WP:CRYSTAL. Delete. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I see "IMPORTANT, this is a very rough draft and should not be treated as an official manifesto.", and from the main page, "Top of the list is that we’re starting to create the policy working groups that will write our manifesto." Hence, manifesto is two months away from a final draft. Regardless, the criterion is really at WP:N, which this doesn't meet. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep The party will be registered shortly. Elections for Party Officials have been held and the manifesto is alomst complete. It makes no sence to delete this article to then recreate it in several weeks. The Pirate Party forums and website are far more active than some UK Political Parties that also have wikipedia pages such as A BEE C--Tancred (talk) 12:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Party registration information doesn't go into depth, and their manifesto would be a primary source. Neither of those will change whether or not this article meets WP:N. What we really need is some sort of news story or book or something, and we can't know for sure whether or not any of those will happen any time soon. --Explodicle (T/C) 14:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • You say What we really need is some sort of news story or book or something, and we can't know for sure whether or not any of those will happen any time soon. Indeed we can't, not for certain. For all we know, the world might be destroyed by an asteroid tomorrow. The intention of PPUK is to hold a publicity/membership drive once we are formally registered (around the end of this month). We expect that this will result in news stories about us in the national press (I am PPUK's Campaigns Officer). This is a reasonable expection, IMO, because PP internationally has 1 or 2 MEPs (from Sweden; one after Lisbon is ratified) and one MP (in Germany). The international Pirate movement clearly is notable, and PPUK is part of that. But if the PPUK article must be deleted and then recreated a few weeks later, I suppose we'll have to go along with that, even though it is a waste of time. --Cabalamat (talk) 16:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • You're right, deleting the article would be a waste of time. That's why I'm suggesting that we temporarily hide the article under a redirect so we don't break any rules (WP:N, WP:CRYSTAL, etc) and then restore it when more sources become available. --Explodicle (T/C) 18:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Spartaz 19:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Arsala Khan (suspected al Qaida financier) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

It appears that the only public information about this guy comes from a Summary of Evidence against a Guantanamo Bay detainee named Abdel Hadi Mohammed Badan Al Sebaii Sebaii. All the document says about Arsala Khan is: "The detainee's pocket literature included documents containing the name Arsala Khan. Two recovered letters written by Usama Bin Ladin express thanks to Arsala Khan for his financial support and protection." The article consisted entirely of that information until a few days ago, when I redirected to the detainee's article (because all the content here was just duplicated from there); before redirecting, I looked on Google and Google News and found mentions of several other people named Arsala Khan, but nothing that looks like this guy.

Another user undid my redirect and added information about two other men named Arsala Khan that could conceivably be the same as this one (since we know almost nothing about this one or the others), but there's no reason to think they're the same. Some brief conversation ensued on the Talk page (there's also something there in response to a previous bad attempt at a prod), and as far as I can tell, the only argument for keeping the article is that it's possible someday someone will uncover more information about this guy (I have no idea why it's not okay to redirect now and undo the redirect when and if that information is discovered). Since it's clear the redirect won't stand without an outside ruling, and the only reason I redirected instead of nominating for deletion was to avoid the AFD process, now that I'm here, I'd just as soon delete the article entirely. (Think about it: anyone looking up this guy has almost definitely heard of him from reading the detainee's evidence memo. So all that a redirect--or keeping the article, minus the info on random other people with the same name--would accomplish is showing the user the memo he's already read.) Propaniac (talk) 17:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep, it's not the strongest argument, but as Wikiproject:Terrorism is slowly and steadily parsing through the ARB and CSRTs of Guantanamo captives, often names re-occur with slightly different information; more information about Arsala Khan is likely to be found. In addition, you'll note that the United States has captured a letter written by Osama bin Laden congratulating Arsala Khan, it is likely to be found, whether in this wikinews collection of UBL texts, or our s:Author:Osama bin Laden on Wikisource which is currently being populated and others - and again, more information can be gleaned from there. These are not things we can immediately accomplish in the next 7 days, as we are talking about thousands of pages of information which are being processed - but deletion does not seem necessary for this article, and therefore I would request that it be kept since Wiki is not paper. Sherurcij 20:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep -- What should a biographical article contain? If one follows the deletion fora long enough, one can come across both arguments that biographical article have to be deleted because they don't contain enough of the standard biographical information -- like the subject's date of birth, where they studied, what they worked at before they became famous -- and the diametrically opposed argument that articles should be deleted because the standard biographical information was "puffery". My own position is that the information on the standard course of the subject's life is good to have, and I look for it, when I work on a biography. But if the thing that makes someone worthy of coverage is significant enough I do not consider a paucity of details on other aspects of their life as a valid argument for deletion. There is a medieval scholar, who was known until very recently, as "False Geber". He is an early instance of sockpuppetry, or identity theft. He wrote under the name Geber, another famous medieval scholar. In the days when books could only be copied out long-hand, writing under the name of a more famous writer was quite common. But, in this particular instance, False Geber also published significant advances to human knowledge. So, he is worth covering, even though we knew practically nothing else about him. Similarly, it is my opinion that being identified as an al Qaeda financier, and a correspondent of Osama bin Laden is sufficiently remarkable to justify coverage here, all by itself. Geo Swan (talk) 03:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Both "keep" votes here (which are both from people with ties to the article) fail to acknowledge that the only information in the article is already contained in another article, and the only apparent reason someone could know of this guy is if they had already read that information. (I am ignoring the additional information that was added in the past week about other people with the same name, since I feel sure anyone reasonable would agree that that information has no purpose and should be removed even if this article is kept.) The keep votes are arguing that this person is significant and therefore should have an article; I'm not arguing that he's insignificant, I'm arguing that there should be some known content worth putting into an article as a minimum criteria for the article to exist. (And, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure just being mentioned in some military documents doesn't establish notability, if no other sources ever reported or commented on the subject.) Propaniac (talk) 04:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Erm, my "links to the article" appears to have been wiki-linking the word pocket litter in January 2009. I'm not sure that really disqualifies my opinion, kthx. Sherurcij 02:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
What on Earth are you talking about? I said "ties to the article" because you edited it significantly and clearly appeared, during our interaction on the article and the Talk page, to be invested in saving it, to the point that you refused to accept any resolution other than bringing it to AFD. It's perfectly fair of me to point out that your argument is not that of an uninvolved observer. Propaniac (talk) 13:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
My only involvement with the article prior to you attempting to delete it, is wikilinking the word pocket litter as I often go through Knowledge (XXG) and add wikilinks to random articles. The fact I have tried to improve the article since you tried to delete it hardly makes me a biased editor. Please do not try to muddy the issue with half-truths; yes i said the article should be saved when you tried to autonomously delete it and I suggested you open an AfD rather than just blank the page yourself...that makes me somebody who cares about procedure; hardly an "involved editor" beyond thinking that your attempts to delete it were premature. Sherurcij 16:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I think it's clear to everyone else that I said you had ties to the article because you were working on it and defending it prior to the AFD nomination, and that there was no effort on my end towards misrepresentation. My actions in redirecting a useless article, attempting to discuss the resulting conflict, and then coming to AFD have been entirely in line with procedure. Propaniac (talk) 18:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I haven't looked into notability yet, so I'm not going to give a "keep" or "delete", but I must say that it's poor form for Propaniac to cast doubt on Sherurcij's neutrality on the basis of participation in discussion on the article talk page, when Propaniac has also participated in that same discussion. If we're to discount Sherurcij's opinion then we should also discount Propaniac's, because they have both had the same level of involvement in the article prior to the AfD. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
It's obvious that I was involved with the page before the nomination, because I posted the deletion nom. The point of AFD is to seek judgment from users outside of the dispute; it is therefore entirely reasonable, and completely routine, to identify which users are inside the dispute. It would be unfair to me if other editors viewed Sherurcij's response with the impression that he was an outside observer who had simply weighed my argument against this other, anonymous editor. I said he had "ties to the article" and that's it; how could that be an attempt to "cast doubt on neutrality" when, as you point out, all I'm doing is stating that he's coming from the same position that I am? The idea that if two editors are in a dispute, and Editor 1 stops participating in discussion, and explicitly requires Editor 2 to bring the article to AFD in order to effect change, and it's "poor form" for Editor 2 to mention Editor 1's involvement when Editor 1 fails to mention it himself in his argument, is ridiculous. I never accused Sherurcij of "poor form" in not being up-front about his earlier actions, because I assumed good faith. I don't know why you need to assume that I'm trying to carry out some kind of sinister vendetta to subvert justice, instead of simply making sure the discussion is clear to other editors. Propaniac (talk) 20:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. Doesn't meet WP:BIO. No significant coverage in reliable sources. Documents of a prosecuting government agency don't come close to satisfying the wp:rs standard. Looks like another GB article that is ostensibly a biography, but is in essence an article about the evidence of lack thereof supporting the charges against the defendant. It's best that these WP:COATRACK articles are gotten rid of, especially when the subject's notability is weak.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 07:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Note to closing administrator -- the contributor above has made several dozen complaints that contributions I made, related to the "war on terror", lapsed from COATRACK. But in his several years of these complaints I can't remember a single instance when he was willing to try to explain his concerns.
    • I'd also like to remind everyone that, while the COATRACK essay raises some interesting points, it is merely an essay, so it is a mistake to treat it as if it were one of the wikipedia's official policies. Geo Swan (talk) 12:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete no proof from neutral sources that this person even exists. If the person does exist, the article would need to be deleted and re-made under a different name because of WP:BLP anyway. Cynical (talk) 18:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Could you please explain why you think BLP requires a different name? Any of the other Arsala Khan we already have articles about can't complain that this article slanders them, when we have another article about them. And no Arsala Khan we don't have an article about is going to come forward and saw, "I am the Arsala Khan who sent Osama bin Laden money. You are slandering me." Geo Swan (talk) 12:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Weak delete No RS that I can see. On top of that, WTH is "(suspected al Qaida financier)" doing there? Are there that many Arsala Khan's? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, if you do a web search you will find that Arsala Khan is a very common name. Geo Swan (talk) 11:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
    • As Geo Swan said, there seem to be tons of Arsala Khans, although the only other one on Knowledge (XXG) is a Pakistani legislature member. (I actually stumbled upon this article initially by seeing Arsala Khan in the disambig page category and wondering the same thing you did.) I guess if this article is deleted, the legislature member can presumably be moved to Arsala Khan. Propaniac (talk) 15:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete - lack of significant coverage in reliable sources. Agree with the nom about concerns whether the article could be describing two other men named Arsala Khan, because we don't know enough about the subject. PhilKnight (talk) 12:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was keep. It's an encyclopedic topic, it just needs to be rewritten. Deletion should generally be a last resort, and only used when cleanup efforts have failed. –Juliancolton |  22:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Dynamic vapor sorption (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Clearly a copyright violation, though I can't tell from where. My request for information from the initial editor has been ignored. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It is a specialist topic, the tone is a bit technical but that isn't a valid reason for deletion. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, total rewrite or delete, then. The current entry is not up to the job. Nowhere is the subject explained to a general audience. Hairhorn (talk) 19:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
FYI the current en.wikipedia article might be a copyvio of the DVS Brochure listed on Surface Measurement Systems website, because when User:Dvstechnique originally pasted the text (on Wikisource here) it said it was "by D.J. Burnett" who has published academic articles for Surface Measurement Systems (e.g. this). The diagram referred to seems to come from Surface Management Systems research (e.g. it is credited to them here). If an OTRS account-holder were to contact the company, they might release the text under cc-by-xx 3.0 anyway. The UK arm (global HQ?) is apparently run by Dr Daryl Williams of Imperial College, and they make equipment that does DVS profiling automatically, so it is in their interest to release their text and indeed images. - Pointillist (talk) 22:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep for the moment, unless and until better evidence is found that it is a copyright violation. At present we have only a suspicion based on highly circumstantial evidence, but no known source. Yes, it looks like it was copy-pasted from a different format, but it could simply be that it was prepared in a word-processing package. Knowledge (XXG):Copyright problems#Instructions for special cases suggests tagging the Talk page with {{cv-unsure}}, not deleting. Qwfp (talk) 11:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Looks like a synthesis of several articles available on linkinghub.elsevier.com. Thus likely original research. --Pgallert (talk) 12:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. We don't delete articles for being copyright violations without any evidence of copying, and not because they draw together information from many sources, which Pgallert seems to object to. The whole idea of an encyclopedia is that it synthesises information from various sources: the only problem is if the article claims conclusions that the sources don't support, and I see no evidence of that here. The arguments for deletion seem to be that the article is written in a scholarly style and that it uses lots of sources. They sound to me like very strong arguments for keeping. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Point taken, but in this case I suspect the original version will turn out to be a copyvio of a piece of original research by someone in the marketing dept at Surface Management Systems, which wouldn't be a reliable source anyway. So IMO it is notable but we need someone brainy like TimVickers to drive a rewrite. - Pointillist (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The editor has now joined in at Talk:Dynamic vapor sorption saying it is not copyvio because his colleague has released it. I've replied with advice on how to get it released under cc-by-sa etc. Could someone check that my advice is correct and fix it if necessary? Thanks - Pointillist (talk) 10:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello all - many years ago we at Surface Measurement Systems coined a phrase called ' dynamic vapor sorption' to describe a technique as described in the article. This term has now become widely used in many research and development industries. If you google the exact term you will see many scientific manufacturers now commonly use this technique. We have had many requests from different industries to define the term. My colleague wrote this article to help. It was written and pasted from Word as some have suspected. I am not an expert at Knowledge (XXG) and probably never will be. I originally posted it with my colleagues name but we thought we had better take it off in case we were thought to be promoting ourselves. Sorry if I do not keep up with everyone's comments but I still find it daunting to navigate around these pages. Tim has kindly offered to draft me an email which I eagerly look forward to receiving. I hope this whole affair doesn't turn out to be too complicated. We would simply like to share our knowledge. --MOBNMSMS (talk) 06:24, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I can confirm that I've now dealt with the copyright release and forwarded the e-mails to . Tim Vickers (talk) 18:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete, A7.  Frank  |  talk  18:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Temxperts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No indication that this is a notable web community. Only 28 "unique" Google results for the name "Temxperts". Contested prod. ... discospinster talk 16:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Zarabanda (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Has been tagged as unsourced and of dubious notability since 2007. As far as I can tell this fails every criteria in WP:BAND. So, delete per WP:V and WP:BAND. Vyvyan Basterd (talk) 16:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hashim nawaz jung bahadur sardar bahadur (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Deprodded twice, rarely unnotable historical person. See my talk page. Also, speedy declined. ApprenticeFan 16:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment I have made some copy edits and fixed some language mistakes. In my view, articles like this improve the wikipedia and do much to decrease its bias to english-speaking (spec. American) individuals. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 19:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment my belief is that the fellow's name is Hashim Ali Khan. That could be wrong though --- I'm no Indian Army expert and certainly no SA linguist. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 22:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment I've been trying to figure that one out, I'm currently inclined to think that the chap was named Hashim Ali Khan, but the difficulty with many Muslim names (and to an extent, Hindu names) is that sometimes honorifics could also be part of the name. -SpacemanSpiff (talk) 02:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I saw the second and deprodded it --- it should redirect to this one (assuming it survives) as should the other. I think the author(s) are well-meaning but likely have a bit of trouble navigating/editing as english is likely not their 1st language. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 05:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Well played --- the article is vastly better. I imagine if one could dig up an old regimental history (I may check abebooks) there will be more to be found. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 23:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete per A1. No context; page served only as a portal for an external link. RunningOnBrains 18:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Wapping-gate. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Is just a link to a news article. Perhaps the topic deserves a full article, but right now it appears to be a link to a news article and the headline, failing WP:Advert. Any modification would be hard-pressed to beat WP:News articles. Gosox5555 (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Models story (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unnecessary content fork of Model. Prod was removed by page creator without any relevant explanation. Alexius08 (talk) 12:56, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @010  ·  23:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Ox Society (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

(Originally nominated by PRRfan for reason "delete unless cite provided")

  • As a member of this society and someone who is in contact with nearly 30 years of Ox alumni, I have created this article to contribute to the list of secret societies at Yale University. I will be adding verifiable details soon, as the article at present is unfinished. As you know, many details are not my right to share for the secretive nature of the organization, but I will be consulting with others as to how much information we can list publicly. Please notify me if you have any further queries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishtar21 (talk • contribs) 2009/07/08 18:16:27
I would argue that Skull and Bones, a secret society, is quite notable. As to your second point - as an American, I share your befuddlement. I suppose it's some combination of the ideal of "equality" (perhaps not original to America, but certainly popularized by a land with no guaranteed birth-right, Divine-Right Kings or Queens - Elvis and Freddy Mercury exempted), fused with the grand American pastime of taking quaint notions to ridiculous extremes - in this case, setting up entire structures so that everybody can have a social life, even those too dull, unimaginative, and/or timid to find one on their own. May the rest of the world learn at our expense. I'd say that ultimately, fraternities, sororities, and other such organizations are about as useful - and pretentious - as heraldry and Knighthood. Badger Drink (talk) 13:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Whether or not we personally find these organizations useful/pretentious/etc aren't reasons to delete or keep this article. Let's stay focused on encyclopedic quality and Knowledge (XXG) policy. --Explodicle (T/C) 14:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
All work and no side-tangents make Jack a dull, mercenary stick-in-the-mud. Badger Drink (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete - while some secret societies can be notable (see my reply to Phil Bridger, above), this one seems to fail WP:N. The sources currently provided are, in order: 1) a membership roster published in a borderline blog (showing that it exists, but offering nothing substantial), 2) a link to the front page of a student-run newspaper's website - no mention of Ox on that page, 3) a book describing an "Ox Head Society" from 19th century China - I'll assume good faith, and figure that this is merely the result of an Ivy League student too stupid to manage a useful Google search, rather than assume outright intent to deceit on his part - and 4) a post on a webforum. Nothing useful, and it only calls into question whether anybody in this secret society has ever read an encyclopedia, since whoever wrote this article clearly has no clue as to what constitutes an encyclopedic source. Finally, even if Ishtar21 were to follow through on his promise, the sources provided would still be primary - and secondary sources are what matters for notability. Badger Drink (talk) 13:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. You say that some secret societies can be notable, but surely, if they are truly secret, they will, by definition of the word "secret", be neither verifiable nor notable. If the sources required to comply with either of these tests exist then the society is not secret. I know that this is a digression from the main point, which is that we agree that this should be deleted, but I think that it's an important point to make that nothing genuinely secret can be verifiable. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Delete --JForget 22:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Gateway Pictures (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. No assertations of notability in the article, no independent references from reliable sources. While there was a Gateway Pictures that made the 1939 film mentioned, I don't beileve this is the same company - the website domain was only created last year through GoDaddy. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 15:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep No evidence that the companies are different OR the same. Therefore, I recommend removing this article's deletion status and maintaining its stub status so other users can (hopefully) build upon this info. FennShysa offers no evidence that this is spam other than his own "belief". Aliveatoms (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)— Aliveatoms (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete No assertion of notability, other than a movie which doesn't appear to be notable itself. external links lead nowhere, and tell you nothing. WuhWuzDat 18:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • STRONGLY DISAGREE - KEEP I feel this is bordering on an edit war, and strongly feel this article should not be deleted. This article in no way violates the five pillars of Knowledge (XXG). This is a valid encyclopedia entry because it is of historical fact that this company produced the 1939 film. Further more, Amazon cites the film as "one of the top 100 classic films of all time". I think what is causing the problems is the web site, which I agree can neither be proven nor disproven to be the same "Gateway Pictures". Therefore, I request that this deletion status be immediately removed (there are many other pages with much less info available that are part of the wikipedia). Furthermore, I submit that as a compromise, the link to the web page also be removed from the wiki entry, and that we leave this as stub status so others can contribute relevant info. Aliveatoms (talk) 20:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)— Aliveatoms (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
User has already registered a boldfaced "keep" opinion above; I've therefore struck this one out. You get only one, Aliveatoms. Deor (talk) 01:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Redirect to the character list can be created later. –Juliancolton |  16:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruby Buckton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio should in my view be deleted.--VS 14:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Closed a bit early per WP:SNOW. –Juliancolton |  00:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

KTM 50 SX (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nominating this page and multiple related placeholder pages:

KTM 50 SX Junior (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 65 XC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 85 SX (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 125 RS Comet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 125 Super-Moto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 150 SX (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 200 EXC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 200 GS EXC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 200 XC-W (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 200 XC-W Street (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 SX (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 SX-F (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 XC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 XC-FW Champions (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 XC-W (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 XC-W Street (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 250 XCF-W (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 300 GS Enduro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 300 MXC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 300 XC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 400 EXC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 450 SX ATV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 450 XC ATV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 505 SX ATV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
KTM 525 XC ATV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Pages are either empty placeholders, infoboxes only, or articles with too little information. It's also unclear whether they merit separate entries, particularly for closely related models (like "KTM 250 XC-W" and "KTM 250 XC-W Street").

This was part of a large batch of placeholder articles created more than 2 weeks ago. Roughly half the batch was speedied for no content. Speedy was declined by another admin for these pages, citing the "under contruction" tag, which has since expired (a couple missed being speedy tagged altogether). Hairhorn (talk) 14:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  22:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Tommy McRae (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unreferenced BLP; seemingly non-notable musician of a borderline notable band Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @010  ·  23:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Coats of arms of micronations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The vast majority of these coats of arms are copyrighted, and so this "article" serves entirely as a non-free gallery. J Milburn (talk) 14:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Coats of arms of unrecognized states
Gallery of country coats of arms
Coats of arms of dependent territories
Gallery of sovereign-state flags
Gallery of dependent territory flags
Flags of unrecognized and partially recognized states
Flags of micronations —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seb az86556 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
If you want to go that far why not just type in "Gallery of", "Flags of" and "Coats of arms of" in the search box and delete every single article it comes up with.--SelfQ (talk) 19:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll certainly look into it, but the flags of Europe are clearly of more encyclopedic interest than the coats of arms of micronations... J Milburn (talk) 22:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is the page you're looking for, I believe. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 01:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Lynn Davenport (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's. F-a-n-c-r-u-f-t.. Cheers, Jack Merridew 14:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Nomination withdrawn by Alchaenist. TerriersFan (talk) 02:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Village School (Great Neck, New York) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The fact that Village School is the oldest alternative high school does not mean it is notable enough for its own article on Knowledge (XXG). Did Village School invent alternative education? No. It was created as the result of the alternative education movement. Alternative schools should be mentioned in the alternative education article. But Village School does not deserve its own article. Not all schools deserve to be notable. Special schools aren’t for the most part so what make this particular school unique? Alchaenist (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I am withdrawing this nomination. It seems to be notable, after all. Alchaenist (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - Notability is established by reliable sources related to both the alumni and the school itself (see Google News search). Makes a good example for the type of learning, and uniqueness isn't a barrier of entry for a Knowledge (XXG) article. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: Having notable alumni doesn't mean anything. The reliable sources are about Village School. But still no indication that it caused any effects on society. There is nothing notable about this school that should be included in an online encyclopedia. It is notable in the school community. But Knowledge (XXG) is not a school community. Alchaenist (talk) 18:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep per Scjessey. Plenty of sources, NYT articles on the school from 1971 onward. Clearly notable high school.John Z (talk) 18:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. An interesting and unusual school, the first of its type in America. The article is well referenced and the school has been the subject of multiple secondary sources so its notability is clearly established. Dahliarose (talk) 19:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: Primary sources or sources affiliated with Village School are not sufficient for a Knowledge (XXG) article. It needs references that are tertiary sources which it doesn't have. Many students attend traditional schools. Why should they care at all about alternative schools? Alternative schools have affected a small percentage of people. Why should this school be notable for only educating a small population of people? First see WP:CRYSTAL, we cannot wait for it to all of sudden is notable. Alchaenist (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
?There are many substantial reliable third party references already used in the article and in the searches above. WP:Notability has nothing to do with "how it affects society."John Z (talk) 22:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
These are secondary sources but are not tertiary sources. Alchaenist (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Several articles in the New York Times on the school are not reliable third party sources? Hmmm.John Z (talk) 23:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The article reads like any school prospectus, with nothing of any real note worthiness. Just the usual sales pitch that most schools put out to encourage new entrants. There is no global interest in the school its just a slightly different provincial school. No references from outside of the immediate locality so not even of national notability, let alone global or international notability. dolfrog (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment: What dolfrog is trying to say is Knowledge (XXG) is not a place to advertise local schools. Town articles have more notability than local schools. Therefore, they don't need to prove notability. High schools are notable is NOT policy or guideline. I don't understand why people keep using this as a valid argument. Alchaenist (talk) 14:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - if you consider that the page needs cleaning up please so do; however this is not a deletion ground. WP:N does not require national notability, particularly in a country as big as the US. If it did we would be culling thousands of pages about matters only notable within their state. TerriersFan (talk) 00:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I have looked at all of the references in the artilce 17 in all, most come from the Schools web site, or school inspectors which is the same for all schools, there is one dead like and a couple of links which do not mention the school at all, There is nothing in any of the links toi state that the school it notable in anyway, but only prove that the school exists. If every school that exists were to be included in Knowledge (XXG) then ever school in the world would have to be included and if you look at what Knowledge (XXG) is not Knowledge (XXG) is not a directory, and this entry would appear to just a directory entry with no notability from any other school. So what is so notable, about this school and where is the independent documentary support There is none there at the moment. dolfrog (talk) 15:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment: Dolfrog, take a look at Google News and you'll find plenty of news stories about the school, mostly in the early days in the 70s and often in the New York Times. We judge notability of organisations by external news coverage, so why not check out those sources rather than concentrating on the article in its present state? Fences&Windows 16:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment I am from the UK have no time to look for old Newspaper articles. If they exist then they should be referenced, or the notability was only back in the 1970s and not now, some 40 years later. Has to school made further improvements, or is it part of a larger group of similar schools, have other schools use this school as a model. Or has it just lost its notability, in the sands of time. Refrecnes should go strait the relevant passages or quotes, the reader should not have to scroll though long web pages only to find a passing reference from a former worker.dolfrog (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
"have no time to look for old Newspaper articles." If you aren't prepared to research topics, then you shouldn't be arguing at AfD. Also, notability is not temporary - if it was notable in the 70s, it's notable forever as far as Knowledge (XXG) is concerned. Fences&Windows 00:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment: The external news coverage is not tertiary sources. Alchaenist (talk) 16:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Secondary sources (e.g. the New York Times) are third party publications. Third party publication just means someone other than the subject; i.e. someone other than the school or people involved in the school. When WP:Reliable sources says "reliable, third-party, published sources" it literally means secondary sources, which is why it also says Knowledge (XXG) articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. If you're arguing that secondary sources are not third party sources then it's possible that you're confusing third party source with tertiary source. The sub guideline most relevant to this organization is WP:Notability (organizations and companies), which states "an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." Ha! (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
An organization is "an organization is generally considered notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." In this case, Village School is not a typical high school. Therefore it doesn't have tertiary sources to claim notability. Alchaenist (talk) 17:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Tertiary sources (e.g., dictionaries and encyclopedias) are not necessary. We're looking for third-party sources (e.g., newspaper articles written by someone that is not part of the school). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
How are tertiary sources not necessary when this school is not the typical high school? Alchaenist (talk) 19:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
None of Knowledge (XXG)'s notability guidelines require tertiary sources to establish notability; all of them require secondary sources instead. Unless you can link to a WP:Notability guideline that says tertiary sources are required, an argument based on a requirement for tertiary sources is invalid. Ha! (talk) 20:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Village School is not a typical high school. Isn't that enough to warrant tertiary sources? Besides, notability is not temporary. I haven't read anything new about the school. Alchaenist (talk) 20:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of the type of school it is ↩

↪ and also regardless of what type of topic it is, WP:Notability requires secondary sources rather than tertiary sources. Notability is not temporary states that a topic does not need to have ongoing coverage from news sources; in other words, "notability is not temporary" means that it doesn't matter that you haven't read anything new about the school, rather than that it does matter. On a side note, if you're changing your previous comments in an AfD discussion so that they take on a different meaning, it's usually better to strike through the old text and insert new text than to replace the old text with new text; otherwise the discussion no longer makes sense. To strike through text, use <s></s>,<strike></strike> or <del></del>; see WP:Markup#Character_formatting. Ha! (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Alchaenist's arguments about tertiary sources should be discounted. Either they do not understand what a tertiary source is, or they do not understand Knowledge (XXG) notability guidelines. Ha! is correct about what "Notability is not temporary" means; editors should read policies and guidelines before assuming they mean the direct opposite of what they actually say. Oh, and Keep as I've not read a single good argument for deletion. Fences&Windows 00:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. (X! · talk)  · @981  ·  22:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Emma Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's. Emma was played by Kylie Minogue's sister; which means boo. Delete. Cheers, Jack Merridew 14:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Angelo Rosetta (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's. We have just about no content re Angelo Rosetta and if CSD.A7 didn't only apply to *real* people, I pitch him that route. Something else that needs fixing. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  16:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Man (word) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Articles about words need extraordinary content to be considered encyclopedic. This article does not meet that threshold. It is a mishmash of etymologies and definitions, with no clear connecting thread that would combine them into an encyclopedic whole. It even contains a table of Old High German inflections, highlighting just how much of this content really belongs in a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. If there is any encyclopedic content here, it may be a small portion of the final section which is already well covered in other articles. Powers 13:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. —+Angr 14:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep. Although not quite as high-caliber as other articles about words (e.g. Thou), this article is certainly full of sourced, encyclopedic information that has no business in a dictionary. The OHG inflection table is probably dispensable, but the five paragraphs of etymological information that precedes it are not, nor is the "Modern usage" section at the end. The section on the rune Mannaz could probably be a separate article (as it indeed originally was), but that would still leave plenty to make a decent encyclopedia article. +Angr 14:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Extensive etymology is the domain of dictionaries, isn't it? Powers 14:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
      • No, brief etymologies are the domain of dictionaries. Extensive etymologies, and discussion of usage, in paragraphs of connected prose, are encyclopedic information. +Angr 14:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
        • Wrong. As pointed out by Nyttend below, dictionaries are not constrained to solely brief etymologies. That is purely a function of printing costs, not scope. It's not even an issue for not-paper dictionaries. Uncle G (talk) 18:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep, the sourced and NPOV discussion of its usage makes it a fitting candidate for an article, and if we have an article on a word, we really should discuss its etymology somewhat. By the way, the best dictionaries have extensive etymologies: if I remember right, the OED spends something like half a page on its etymology for "black" alone. Etymologies aside, this content belongs nowhere except an encyclopedia. Nyttend (talk) 15:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • While I appreciate your support on the etymology issue, I believe usage guides are also dictionary content, not encyclopedia content. Powers 16:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge to Man#Etymology. I don't see any reason why there needs to be an entirely separate article for the word itself. Tavix |  Talk  16:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I think that Man (word) (10KB) is disproportionately long to be a valid section of Man (20KB). From WP:SPLIT: if an article becomes too large or a section of an article has a length that is out of proportion to the rest of the article it is recommended that a split is carried out. Personally, I would rename the article into more appropriate Etymology of man or Man (etymology)— Rankiri (talk) 17:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep per arguments suggested by Angr. I also concur with Rankiri that the page is too long to be a section of Man. Cnilep (talk) 19:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • I think we can all agree that most of this content doesn't belong in Man; if a merge were to occur it would primarily consist of extracts from the last section. Powers 00:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Question Does Wiktionary actually take content of this kind? I don't recall seeing information presented in this format there.

    I think this is a fascinating article, and I'd like to see it retained somewhere, but I must confess I think the argument that it belongs in a dictionary has considerable force. Reserving my !vote for the time being.—S Marshall /Cont 21:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

    • Yes, Wiktionary has a different format for their content. If any part of this was transwikied, it would have to be reformatted, but that's normal. Powers 00:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Powers. I'm going to go with keep.

    It seems to be longstanding custom and practice, on Knowledge (XXG), to allow this kind of content for some words: he, she, it, we, you, they. And indeed, it's possible for an article of this kind to be a featured article: see thou.

    It's possible to characterise the "this is custom and practice" argument as WP:WAX, but this goes beyond that essay. A featured article is thoroughly reviewed content, and its existence implies a consensus that fundamentally definitional, etymological or usage-based articles can have a place here.—S Marshall /Cont 01:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

    • As I noted in my opening statement, some articles about words have extraordinary content and can be excellent articles. But that does not imply that any word can or should have an article. Thou is an important topic because of its historical shift in connotation from informal to formal, and its lack of an obvious cognate in modern English. Furthermore, there is really no "concept" behind the word which would be a suitable place for discussion about the word. "Man", however, is a noun, and while a limited discussion of the origin of the word itself is not inappropriate in the Man article, an entire article with detailed etymology is overkill, IMO. Powers 12:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Eskimo. Notable and well-sourced, but not suitable as a stand-alone article. –Juliancolton |  16:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Origin of the name Eskimo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article contains nothing but etymology, as explained right in the first sentence. The corresponding section from the parent Eskimo article is actually longer than this one is, making the split seem absurd. To the extent that we have etymology for the word "Eskimo", it belongs in the Eskimo article; aside from that limited extent, this content belongs in a dictionary, not an encyclopedia. Powers 13:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. —+Angr 14:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge back into Eskimo#Nomenclature, but dictionaries include brief one-line etymologies, not paragraphs of sourced prose. This content definitely belongs at Knowledge (XXG) (as opposed to Wiktionary), but as a section of the general Eskimo article rather than an article on its own. +Angr 14:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Etymologies in dictionaries are only brief because they're printed on paper. The medium of the dictionary is not our concern, only the character of the content. Powers 14:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
      • Just as Wikipeida is not limited by space in the manner of a traditional encyclopaedia, likewise Wiktionary does not have the paper-based constraints of traditional dictionaries. Thryduulf (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
        • Etymologies in dictionaries are brief because that's the nature of dictionaries, whether they're made of paper or not. While Wiktionary is technically capable of holding five paragraphs of etymological information in an entry, in practice Wiktionary entries don't do that. If someone were to add all of this, including references, to wikt:Eskimo#Etymology, it would almost certainly be soon reverted on the grounds that Wiktionary isn't an encyclopedia. +Angr 15:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
          • … and people more used to Wiktionary and not-paper dictionaries would rightly object to such reversion. The only people who think that dictionaries are like this are people who don't have a wide enough experience of dictionaries. They may come to Wiktionary and boldly edit to accord with their own limited mental models, but they are eventually encouraged to learn that Wiktionary is not a paper dictionary, and that paper pocket dictionaries do not form the model for all dictionaries. There is not a single complaint about length currently at Wiktionary's Etymology scriptorium. And there are past Beer Parlour discussions where people have pressed for etymologies to be longer. Uncle G (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
          • The OED has some long entries in it about etymology of various words... and it's a dictionary; though some articles in Wiktionary do get transwikied to Knowledge (XXG)... 70.29.208.69 (talk) 06:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • But what is at stake here is not merely the etymology of the word for the stake of philological interest, as would be the case in most dictionaries. Rather, the discussion here treats the relationship between supposed etymologies of Eskimo and perceptions of the word as derogatory. This is much broader than would normally be considered in a dictionary, regardless of page count. Cnilep (talk) 18:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The overall consensus in this monster of a discussion is clearly in favour of deletion. Despite massive press coverage of Michael Jackson's death as a whole, his children have not obtained sufficient separate notability as an entity to warrant an article; particularly considering the egregious WP:BLP problems that have been brought up in this discussion. ~ mazca 17:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Children of Michael Jackson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)


<first nomination> Children who are only know because of their parents do not require a wiki page. There is already page descibing the Jackson family listing these children. 2 lines at a funeral does not make someone a child star MrMarmite (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

<from the second AfD, deleted as cleanup> This will doubtless be contentious, but I offer the following argument. The children are in of themselves not notable - they cannot derive notability from their father, because notability is not inherited. Their appearance on stage during the recent memorial is a single event, not in itself according notability to the children, and so is best left as information within the article about the event not about the children. I am sympathetic to the article creator's contention (see Talk:Children of Michael Jackson) that it is becoming increasingly difficult to extract information from the Michael Jackson article, but comments on the talk page of Michael Jackson indicate that this is best solved by spinning out the significant portions of text relating to his music, rather than spinning out information on his children, of which very little exists in this article that is not already included. Finally, I note that beyond what is already included at Michael Jackson, this article simply offers an "expectation" of future notability from supposed estate and custody battles, which means that notability does not yet exist for this spinout. Deletion here would not mean that the article could never be created, but I see no establishment of independent notability for the children beyond the single event of their appearance at their father's memorial at this time. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • delete as above and my AFD entered at same time MrMarmite (talk) 13:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. The children are not notable and notability is not inherited. Unfortunately, some might confuse the plethora of media mentions about them during the recent death of their father as notability. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Jackson himself: if I remember right, it's standard to redirect the spouse of a notable person to that person's article, and it seems reasonable to do the same with a notable person's children. They're definitely likely search targets. Nyttend (talk) 14:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I think that's definitely right with their names (and the names are currently redirected), but I wasn't convinced of this for this article title, which is why I went for deletion. Not challenging your opinion here, just explaining to future commentators that I considered this per WP:BEFORE Fritzpoll (talk) 14:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • While that is an option, the thing I worry about is that the Jackson family article it's one line a person. Very little information/weight could be put on Michael Jackson's immediate family when all of the Jackson brothers and sisters have their own unnotable children (and it would violate WP:UNDUE) - Epson291 (talk) 16:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

*Keep as 'Family of Michael Jackson' article (as suggested by Epson291 above). I've supported the deletion of articles on children of celebrities before, but I'm going to make an exception here - in this case, I think Michael Jackson's children are notable enough, simply for being the children of Michael Jackson, to justify this level of coverage. Yes, normally notability is not inherited, but we are talking about almost the biggest celebrity in the world here. I do think it would be preferable, though, to merge in the content about Debbie Rowe into a single 'Family of Michael Jackson' article. Robofish (talk) 15:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure that the level of celebrity has any bearing on WP:NOTINHERITED, and I'm not convinced of the need for an exception, but I'll leave that to the closing admin. Why can the material not exist where it already is, in either the Jackson family or Michael Jackson articles? As I say in the nomination, the need to spin material out of an article is paramount when there's a lot of it. Here, there isn't - the MJ article is too big, but the bloat is from discussion of his music, not from his family. Fritzpoll (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep and merge per above. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 16:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep I'm not sure how this applies under Wiki guidelines, but I came on looking for info about the children, not their father. Whether their notability comes from their father or not, they are a notable news subject. Under the effort to provide information in the most efficient manner, I think the article should be kept. It was much easier for me to be able to go straight to an article about the children, not wade through stuff about the rest of their family. PrincessofLlyr (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    We are not wikinews, we are an encyclopedia - we have inclusion guidelines for a reason. Navigational redirects already exist for the names of the children, and can be altered to point directly to the relevant sections for navigational ease. That doesn't give a reason for this standalone article to exist when the children have no individual notability Fritzpoll (talk) 16:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - The idea that they are not notable (as we define notability) is silly. The media has been writing about them since they were born. You could easily fill this page with 1,000 refs. WP:NOTINHERITED does not apply. They have numerous articles specifically about them. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. There is a fundamental misunderstanding here: the page "Children of Michael Jackson" is a sub-article of Michael Jackson, intended to describe his relationship with the children. It is a sub-article, in the sense of "Songs written by Michael Jackson" or "Music composed by Michael Jackson" or "Dances choreographed by Michael Jackson". The intent is to separately detail another aspect of Michael Jackson's impact (based on his notability), rather than create a sub-section, such as under "Choreography" trying to provide a section about Jackson dance-moves (even though it would still be notable in that article). The specific choice to group the children (rather than the broader "Nuclear family") is because they have been named, as a legal entity, in Jackson's will (to receive 40% of the estate, protected against creditors). That legal entity is not some future expectation; no, instead, it has already been documented. There could be another article, "Beneficiaries named in Michael Jackson's 2002 will" but that would also flow from his notability, rather than something like "List of children who lived at Neverland Ranch" where notability would be tied to the property, itself, rather than Jackson (and people could camp at Neverland after Jackson had left), and would require childhood residency to be a significant aspect of the Ranch. I hope that helps to clarify that the notability of the article is due to the phrase "Michael Jackson" in the title, without the need to use a title such as "Procreation work done by Michael Jackson". Anyway, I do sympathize with the confusion, as trying to consider the children as separately notable, but the article is a sub-article of Michael Jackson, based on his notability, not theirs as independent "3 child-stars named Jackson", such as the notability of "Liza Minnelli" independent of Judy Garland and Vincente Minnelli. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    So you're saying this article about his children is on a notable topic because notability is inherited from their father's article? That's not really how it works. Further, what is the need for this sub-article at this stage - there isn't a huge amount of material, and being named within a will hardly affords them individual notability. Sub-articles are fine when there is too much information to cover within the main article, but that is patently not the case here. If you were going to create a sub-article to reduce the size of the MJ page, you should look to making Music of Michael Jackson to reduce the size, but the children do not need their own sub-article as it is too specific a topic with too little information. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • There is much information about the children that didn't fit in the main article, due to space used about his music. Recent Google searches report: for "children of Michael Jackson" 30,300 hits, or for German "Kinder von Michael Jackson" 16,700 hits, and that does not include searches by the children's names or other languages such as French, Japanese and Italian. With children older than Knowledge (XXG), there are more than 12 years of news reports about the children, their disguises, education, and public appearances. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge or delete PLease don't get carried away because of his death people. This is an encyclopedia. An article dedicated purely to the children of a pop star is absurd. This should be summarized briefly in the personal life section. See Angelina Jolie or Brad Pitt articles for how it should be done. Dr. Blofeld 19:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment After that funeral that was telecast live on all the networks, I think that the kids should get the same treatment that Knowledge (XXG) gives to members of other royal families. Mandsford (talk) 20:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete or merge into MJ mainpage, a section under family. Also no need for a list of MJs family, or anyone else's for that matter.Fuzbaby (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge or delete The current massive interest in them is through no action of their own; all they have done is reacted the way normal people do to personal tragedies. If we are to make crying at your fathers memorial service or inherting great sums of money grounds for notability then we would need to create millions or articles for completely unkown people. These children are not notable in their own right but rather are of peripheral interest to another subject. If we take a moment and look at the guidlines for notable persons we will see it states "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being their spouse, is not a reason for a standalone article on A" Making them subtopics in the relevant page of the Jackson family makes much more sense as this family most certainly is notable and these children are part of it. If we look at the children of other celebrities on wikipedia standard practice seems to be directing readers towards the notable subject of interest as in the case of Suri Cruise or Shiloh Pitt. Furthermore the current massive interest in the children is driven enitrely by recent events and the media interest in them is certainly going to die down; again, to quote the notability guidelines it "takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute sufficient evidence of notability" . Regardless of what popular opinion might be, I feel that stacked strictly against wikipedia's guidelines these children do not meet notability requirements, and thuse the article should be merged or deleted. Solid State Survivor (talk) 20:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

My opinion on the matter has been altered after being persuaded by arguements from other editors. I now support deleting this article without merging into the Jackson family - as per BLP arguements possited by SlimVirgin Realist2 and Lantrix. Solid State Survivor (talk) 02:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge back to the main page, redirect from the kids' names, and delete this. As noted directly above, unless a famous person's family does something to make them in turn famous, then our standing consensus is to redirect to the parent's article. I don't see any reason that this shouldn't be included in the main article, and redirects placed. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge We don't need articles about every subset of Jackson's life.--Falcon8765 (talk) 20:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)\
  • Merge Edit. I think that it should be added to the Jackson family page. Portillo (talk) 00:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment about priorities: I had originally created the article "Children of Michael Jackson" as a significant sub-article to handle reader requests about his children: Knowledge (XXG) users began asking about his children over 120,000x times per day; on 9-July-2009 there were still over 40,000 page-views, with people requesting the children every 1 or 2 seconds (all day long). There was talk that Prince Jackson would have sung during the "This Is It" concert tour, plus reports about their schooling with the nanny. The 2002 will was filed in Los Angeles Probate court on 2-July-2009, and reports stated the children (as a group) would receive 40%, mother 40% & charities 20% of the estate. I didn't see the sense in updating the article about Michael Jackson to keep track of his children's lives, so I though to split as a sub-article based on significance within topic "Michael Jackson". However, people are demanding "wiki-notability" for the article. Meanwhile, nine of his albums became the top 9 in the U.S. (but that's his music, not him). Michael Jackson said that his children were the most important thing in his life; they were "everything" to him. I think that means they were notable to him. So, I wonder how to reconcile Knowledge (XXG) policies with these priorities. Perhaps this is a pivotal point in adjusting WP policies. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
    I am still unsure where you are getting these numbers from. How on earth are MJ's post-mortem record sales relevant, and of course his children are notable to him, my children are "everything" to me, that does not mean they need a wiki page. MrMarmite (talk) 07:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • 11-July-2009: The stats are a complex aggregate of many titles that redirect as names for his children, based on the website stats.grok.se (in use since November 2007). Complicating the total counts are stats for Canadian football player Paris Jackson (same name as MJ's girl). -Wikid77 (talk) 07:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Strong Delete They are not notable in their own right in any way shape or form. If they deserve an article simply because they are the children of a dead pop star, then we can open the floodgates to an article on every single child any celebrity has ever given birth to. Lourdes Leon does not have her own article, why are the Jackson children any different? Paul75 (talk) 08:52, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Lourdes isn't notable because Madonna keeps her from the public eye. Lourdes also doesn't stand to inherit properties worth hundreds of millions of dollars, because Madonna isn't dead. But the Jackson kids are in the public eye due to the death of their father, and due to their potential to become not just millionaires, but centi-millionaires. Their power to make news makes them notable. I disagree with the basic position that "notability is not inheritable." (I posted the same thing at the Debbie Rowe discussion board, by the way.) As someone posted above you, "Knowledge (XXG) users began asking about his children over 120,000x times per day; on 9-July-2009 there were still over 40,000 page-views, with people requesting the children every 1 or 2 seconds (all day long)." That makes them notable. Jgroub (talk) 14:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
a "potential" to become rich is surely not wiki-worthy. Also, please let us know where these page view stats come from. MrMarmite (talk) 14:30, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Mostly you're citing classic arguments to avoid - The existence of other articles of similar quality is not a good reason for retention, page-views, Google hits, and any metric other than notability through their own actions, not inherited via the fame of their father or a single event are very weak as arguments for retention. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like to add that I think being wealthy is in and of itself not notable in the context of an encyclopedia. Extremely wealthy individuals are notable on wikipedia only when they do things that may or may not involve this wealth. For instance S. Robson Walton is notable not because he inherited a massive fortune, but rather because he is the chairman of the coproration that generated that fortune. Solid State Survivor (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Err... Lourdes isn't notable because Madonna keeps her from the public eye. Lourdes also doesn't stand to inherit properties worth hundreds of millions of dollars, because Madonna isn't dead. is a ridiculous statement Jgroub. If Lourdes Leon is kept out of the public eye by Madonna, why is she seemingly splashed over every single glossy woman's magazine more and more as she gets older. And she doesn't stand to inherit properities worth millions of dollars???!!! So Madonna doesn't own all that property she lives in then, and isn't going to pass some of it onto Lourdes? Anyway, the Jackson kids may end up getting nothing. Many reports claim he was bankrupt and heavily in debt. And he was living in a rented house when he died. Even if it was a reason to get your own articles, I doubt those kids are going to get wealthy from their father's estate. Paul75 (talk) 07:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep or Merge I feel the content is worthwhile, but possibly should be merged into a "Family of Michael Jackson" article as mentioned above. Bafleyanne (talk) 12:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)— Bafleyanne (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Comment: Just to illustrate the problem, how would an article about Paris begin? "Paris-Michael Jackson is" ... what? an actress? a television personality? a musician? No, the only way to describe her at this point is "Michael Jackson's daughter." WillOakland (talk) 16:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge The Children are already mentioned in other articles; there is no need for excessive repetition. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 16:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete without a redirect. They are minors. A comprehensive article would have to get into issues such as biological parentage, custody, and other matters it would be unfair to showcase on a page devoted to minors. As they pass through their teens, we'd be on hand to document the first time they got drunk, their first love affair, the first time they did something silly in public. It would be a BLP minefield. SlimVirgin 16:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh, no no. It is much better to attract unfair comments/insults into one heavily-policed article, rather than let people scatter unfair words (about minors) in dozens of Michael Jackson articles. I have countered wiki-vandalism for years, and so I know how to, logistically, limit it's general proliferation: offer a clear target, with a good defence. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete The children are not notable and notability is not inherited. Wait until they have done something notable themselves. Esowteric | Talk 19:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. Slim puts it best. – iridescent 21:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment for closing admin - It looks like this article is going down, but I'd like to point out that the votes based on not-notable are incorrect (if using our definition of the word). 12 independant reliable sources that discuss in the children in detail. As far as saying BLP as a reason to delete, that is also incorrect. BLP just says we should follow Neutral point of view (NPOV), Verifiability, and No original research. This article does that, so BLP doesn't come into play. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 22:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
    These are WP:ONEEVENT indicators, as they all relate to the event of Jackson's death, and do not therefore accord notability on the children, but on the event of the memorial service, which already has an article. Fritzpoll (talk) 22:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
    There have been articles about them ever since they were born. It certainly isn't ONEEVENT stuff. They always had that taken care off, they just weren't notable (maybe) in the past. Now they're notable, and they've been covered extensively their whole lives. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment about issues raised: There has been an implicit blurring of the notability focus, and much talk about "inheriting notability", so let me clarify:
  • notability focus - the main focus is all the children, as a group tied to Michael Jackson, with no separate articles as claiming individual notability by their own names, only as the group with Michael Jackson.
  • notability scope - the scope is only with "Michael Jackson" and not as "3 youngsters named Jackson"; there is no attempt to define them as 3 separate articles, independent of their designation as, collectively, the children of Michael Jackson.
  • no inheritance - there is no attempt to shift notability from Michael Jackson, separately, onto them, such as touting them as the upcoming "Kinglets of Pop" as if that royal term had been passed, by birthright, to some royal heirs.
  • notable as note-worthy - fundamentally, the article addresses a note-worthy topic, about the children together in relation to Michael Jackson, as being worthy of note. If someone said, "The children of Michael Jackson are planning a public appearance in town today", then would that be note-worthy, or of no importance? Consider the reaction of the local officials, local police, and local citizens of the town, when expecting a public visit of MJ's children.
  • wealth/privilege: It has been argued that perhaps any group of children, expecting to inherit great wealth, could be documented separately. However, the title of the article includes "of Michael Jackson" rather than just anyone raised in wealth. The significance cannot be separated from the notability of Michael Jackson, as if trying to convert the "1983 music released by Michael Jackson" into merely "some songs released in 1983"; instead, the article is demanding, by the title, to include "Michael Jackson".
  • arguing independence: Some have asserted that the children will be viewed as famous on their own, even though they never received a major competitive award; however, the subject of the article is the collective group tied inseparably to Michael Jackson, not merely their separate accomplishments.
  • legal term: If the U.S. Supreme Court were asked to consider a case regarding the "children of Michael Jackson", there would be little doubt as to what that term denotes. There might even be a reply, "You mean, of THE Michael Jackson". The obvious legal implication is another aspect of notability.
  • Knowledge (XXG) precedents: Oh, it's never been done before. They're always part of their parent's article. But these children were orphans, they didn't go home to their mother; they had no legal parents. So, the court awarded temporary custody to their grandmother, Katherine Jackson. This is a rather unusual situation, where they cannot be considered an active part of their parents' life. They are orphans, being assigned to a guardian.

I hope those issues help to clarify the notability as tied directly to Michael Jackson, but also as a legal entity to the American judicial system, a security concern of police departments, and a case of children becoming orphans. Their impact to the court system, and to security concerns of the local police, is because they are the children of Michael Jackson, and hence, the article. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What have these odd definitions of notability got to do with Knowledge (XXG)'s definition, which does not (unfortunately because it makes it unclear) to the everyday usage, in the context specifically of WP:NRVE, WP:ONEEVENT and WP:SBST? I'm afraid you don't get to make up the rules of notability as you go along, and I have covered why this is an unnecessary spinout above. Fritzpoll (talk) 23:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The above section ("Comment about issues raised" ) does not give "definitions" of notability, but rather, explains the aspects & situations affecting notability. There has been no attempt to "make up rules of notability" but, rather, to emphasize that the article is about Michael Jackson (the man) with his children, and about his parenting, the masks, schooling, etc. It is not titled "MJ's children after he was gone". There is an illusion here that the article is expected to be 99% about the children, excluding any mention of Michael Jackson (not true). -Wikid77 (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

KEEP - These are notable children —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.99.72 (talk) 02:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Delete: This article is not future-proof, since it is logical this kids will grow up and have a mind each one on their own. My suggestion is to create three separate articles with the information regarding each one of those kids (even if redundant, that's ok). And have the article Children of Michael Jackson merged into the Michael Jackson article and the Jackson Family article. Thanks--Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Creating 3 separate articles has been tried before, and rejected, because they are not yet separately notable (apart from their father), since they have not each won a competitive award, plus they are minors, legally, requiring special coverage, as with child-stars. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment on notability: I cannot emphasize enough: the article is a Michael Jackson article; the page is about Michael Jackson, as a father with his children. It does not attempt to establish separate notability as "3 kids named Jackson"; no, instead, the article includes many events with Michael Jackson and his children together, during the 12 years (not as a WP:ONEEVENT). It's not like a typical wiki-biography where a father is mentioned 1 or 2 times, and then all the rest is life/work of the notable, independent person. No, instead, it is a Michael Jackson article, where he is mentioned many times in numerous events during the 12-year period. The notability is not because a 3-kid group was seen on stage worldwide, but, rather, it is an article about the notable relationship of Michael Jackson with his children, as reported by major reliable sources, during a 12-year period. OK, at this point, does anyone still imagine the article is about the 3 kids, separately, restricted to only 1 line about their father? There is no, repeat, no issue of inheriting notability, (why?) because it is an article about Michael Jackson as a parent. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete: "Michael Jackson as a parent" is not a notable encyclopedic article by any standard. Any relevance to the relationship with his children can easily be covered by the his main biography or by the Jackson family article. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
    Comment To me this whole issue looks like people's desire to keep the world of MJ alive through his children, somewhat ironic given his predilections. He's dead, and no amount of repeated and over detailed information about pre-pubescent children is going to change that . I no more expect to see articles on these young children than I would expect to see articles on the children of other dead celebrities who have no claims to fame of their own. Frankly, I find the whole thing rather creepy. MrMarmite (talk) 09:12, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
    Comment on uber-notability: I realize it can seem confusing: the actual uber-notability. I didn't know that much about Jackson, about his numerous albums (etc.), so I was shocked to learn about: the recent 9 Michael Jackson albums in the U.S. top 9 album sales; Amazon.com sold-out of all albums (!!); CD manufacturers couldn't cut CDs fast enough to meet orders (!!!); downloads at iTunes set new sales records; and a memorial viewed by 1 billion people? But that's the reality: MJ is shattering 100 records in every area. When I went to find old articles about MJ+children, what did I find? ...major articles about his parenting (with his kids), written yesterday (!), not just years ago. Knowledge (XXG) is not the only one frantically writing about "Children of Michael Jackson" - everyone thinks it's notable. And, he is more alive now, than when living: breaking all these worldwide top-album ranks of the past 100 years; and minimum projected income=US$80 million per year (before the "This Is It" concert tapes are released). Like Elvis before him, MJ will obviously become much bigger in death: and his children will become much richer than he ever was. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Redirect to either Michael Jackson or Death of Michael Jackson, as per WP:RCAT--in particular, the part about "sub-topics or closely related topics that should be explained within the text", and perhaps the bit on "people known solely in the context of one event" has something to offer (although "known solely" would be a bit restrictive in this case). The children are a plausible search term, so outright deletion/redlinking could be somewhat counterproductive (not to mention counterintuitive). Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • uninvolved reader cautions against delete, so merge or keep I came here just because I searched the kids' names. I was not interested in MJ and didn't look at his article. Therefore, in the interest of reader ease, a merge or keep is more appropriate than delete. User F203 (talk) 20:17, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. It's enough to list them in Michael's own page, they do not need their own. As human beings, they do not qualify as notable, simply being Jacko's kids is not enough. magnius (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: To elaborate a little on my earlier post--WP:NOTINHERITED might preclude an unqualified "keep" on this one, but it wouldn't necessarily indicate deletion. Please bear in mind the non-keep alternatives to deletion, including a simple redirect to Michael Jackson. The fact that lots of folks are viewing the children's article might not excuse the article's existence, but it could very well warrant a practical response. Cosmic Latte (talk) 21:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect, as per Fritzpoll in the second nomination. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 02:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong delete: Leave these children alone. They are not notable. 1) they are not notable 2) single issue people don't get any page. If any of these children accomplish something notable other than being children of MJ, then we create the page again. Right now. this is completely useless. 97.124.244.104 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC).
  • Strong keep: They are some of the most famous children in the world. They are bound to remain in the media spotlight for years to come. The main MJ article is already too long. Brmull (talk) 05:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
    Comment Surely the Jackson family would be the best place for them then. A page should not exist because people might be talking about them in the coming years. Never understood why people put strong before delete or keep MrMarmite (talk)
    Comment Its in case they feel strongly for or against. Portillo (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
    Comment A page should not cease to exist because people might not be talking about them in the future. The kids are for now a discrete entity in the public consciousness. At some point it might make sense to merge them or split them up, but for now most readers who are interested in one child are also interested in the others, and are NOT interested in Joe Jackson's kids. The 12 July recap counters the Delete arguments well, in my view.Brmull (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete or redirect, based upon the numerous points above about notability and obvious BLP issues which will make this article a complete battleground/wasteland. Q 06:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Split into separate articles for each person. They are obviously not Michael Jackson's children and so the current title is not appropriate. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete and salt the page until and unless they do something to make themselves notable. These three children are notable only for their father, and have done nothing on their own to be notable. The only one whose voice has even been heard is the daughter. Additionally, as many others have pointed out, notability is not inherited. Lastly, as SlimVirgin pointed out, these are minor children, and the BLP issues alone are quite problematic. Walls of text posted in its defense aside, this article should not exist until and unless these children do something notable in their own right, such as have a singing or acting career. Unitanode 01:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

_________________________________________

Recap up to 12-July-09

The same off-topic arguments have been repeated (for days), so let me summarize in this sub-section; there are 2 core arguments that have been shown to be false:

  • Core argument 1 - "Delete because non-notable:" Since the article is about Michael Jackson, notability has been established, so the claim is false.
  • Core argument 2 - "Delete because too little information:" Michael Jackson raised his children during a 12-year period (1997-2009), and there are numerous reliable sources about those activities (masking, home-schooling, shopping, excursions, birthdays, travel), so the claim of "too little" is false.

Beyond those issues, there have been other tangent issues:

  • Claim of WP:ONEEVENT: This is spurious, as focusing on the memorial, because the article describes Michael Jackson's relationship with his children since birth (for 12 years), not just in one event.
  • Claim of any rich-children articles: Someone concluded, well then all rich children could be in articles. This is an invalid conclusion, because it assumes notability if Michael Jackson is excluded, as in "all rich children" not just Jackson's. However, there could be another article "Michael Jackson's work with other children", then (given his notability) describe HIV work with Ryan White, roles Jackson gave to child actors, children's charities, excursions to children in Africa, children's parties at Neverland Ranch, etc. The requirement is the notability of Jackson, not just any children without him.
  • Claim of non-notable parenting: Knowledge (XXG) editors don't get to choose which parts of a notable person's life to exclude ("Well, I feel Einstein had a boring childhood so exclude it, and his marriages ended in divorce, so exclude them"). Sorry, that's not the way it works. Once a person is shown to be notable, a typical article starts by identifying their birthdate, parents, childhood, schooling, etc. Knowledge (XXG) editors don't get to decide a notable person's birthdate is boring, nor declare that time spent with their children was wasted time. Plus, when there are numerous reliable reports about a notable person's activities with their children, those actions cannot be deemed insignificant or "too limited" to report.
  • Too many articles about Jackson: Knowledge (XXG) editors don't get to randomly exclude information from reliable sources. If there are 250,000 sources about Michael Jackson, then editors can't declare the coverage should be 6 articles only. The number of articles depends on the 32kb limit due to WP:Accessibility: when too much information, then split into another article, even if 27 of them.
  • Confusing notability with significance: For an article, the notability aspect is just the first step. If someone wrote a one-line article about Michael Jackson's music: "Jackson sang the songs on the album Thriller (end of article)", that would not be a problem due to notability. Michael Jackson is notable, so even 1 line about him still counts. However, the problem with a 1-line article is the "scope of significance" - meaning the total amount of information presented. An article about Jackson's music would even be questionable if it described all recordings from just 1985 (what about the other years?). Focusing on 1985 is not a problem based on notability, but rather, because of the limited scope. There are unusual cases where a single year would be acceptable, such as Einstein's "Annus Mirabilis" as being year 1905, due to his 5 seminal papers and the details needed to describe each, plus the events of their publication. However, that article would be "Einstein in 1905" (not "Einstein's total writings"). So, with Michael Jackson being notable, the issue shifts to "scope of significance" which, in the case of his children, spans a period of 12 years, with numerous published accounts of his activities as a father. If Jackson had only been a father for 3 months, then perhaps, that topic could be considered as "too little" for a separate article, but covering a 12-year period is certainly an acceptable "scope of significance" for such an article.
  • Merge to article Michael Jackson: That was already rejected because: main article too big.
  • Merge to article Jackson family: That option was already rejected because: WP:UNDUE with 20x more detail than 15 other family members. There might be a new article "Michael Jackson children with their relatives" to describe events with Janet Jackson and their uncles, plus visits to grandma.
  • Split as three: When an article is created for each separate person, then notability must be re-established, because those are titled under their own names, hence as "making a name for themselves". Technically, a title could be attempted as "Eldest son of MJ" or "Daughter of MJ" but that would be viewed as skirting individual notability, plus a complaint would be as duplication of childhood years, demanding to re-combine as "Children of MJ".

I realize that many people might not have considered those detailed reasons, described above, so that's why I clarified. As volunteers, it can take years for a person to see the many aspects of how articles are chosen, and why individual-person articles must "make a name for themselves". That ends this sub-section, of the recap up to 12-July-2009. -Wikid77 (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

  • I'll deal with these briefly. The article is not about Michael Jackson, which is probably our main sticking point of disagreement - it is about his children. The guideline on notability at WP:NRVE specifies that Jackson's children do not inherit notability from the parent article. WP:ONEEVENT has been raised only to counter the notion that the children are notable solely through their appearance at his memorial - if they have no other claim to notability, then this argument is a valid one. I agree that the "other stuff could exist" arguments are flawed - we should be thinking about this article, and not trying to make hypothetical comparisons to other ones. I've not noticed the argument about there being too many articles on Jackson (this page is getting pretty full!) but I too think that we can have as many articles on notable topics about Jackson as are feasible - my sole disagreement is that this is one of them! :) In your comments about notability vs. significance, I think there is a small flaw in that notability is based on significance. In the case of articles on Jackson's music, the music itself is widely publicised, discussed, and examined critically - they actually have standalone notability of their own, and your commentary is a good argument for an efficient use of articles (why only talk about one year of his music, when all could be discussed, etc.) and is one I agree with.
  • I will not budge from my notion that this article should not exist as a standalone: I think there is insufficient notability, that it is a worrying BLP nightmare in the making, and that there is a fundamental privacy that should be afforded to children who have done nothing more than be born to famous parents and that the lightning conductor of this article poses a risk to that. My acceptable compromise is a merge. I think we can merge back into Michael Jackson because most of the material in this article is already there. The MJ article does have to be reduced in size, but in terms of the content a split of the material on the children is not warranted because the material about them is not so large that it cannot fit into the main Jackson biography - such a split is warranted for other topics, such as his music, but that debate is not for here. With no reason for a split, the article has to satisfy the concerns of notability of living persons and the associated policies in order to stand alone. I contend that it does not for the reasons I have plastered all over this page, and will try to avoid doing again since I am sure the closing admin is well aware of them! :) I am sure we will continue to disagree on a number of these points, but I hope you can consider moving towards the middle ground that I have tried to establish. Fritzpoll (talk) 12:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion

Discussion of the AfD continues below (if new to this debate, please read the above section, #Recap up to 12-July-09). -Wikid77 (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment Wikid, Thank you for further clarifying you points, as these are good arguments that should be addressed. You are approaching the topic in a way that seems much more in-line with wikipedia's guidelines; you see it as a sub-article. I think that a discussion needs to be had on the nature of sub-articles. I am of the mindset that a sub-article, though it is inherently tied to its parent subject, must still maintain its own notability that is of some degree distinct. For instance the article on "Thriller", though a sub-article that is inherently tied to Jackson, achieves its own notability in selling a massive number of copies, producing many number 1 singles, and leaving a distinct impression on popular culture. It seems to me that all of the other Michael Jackson sub-articles sustain their own somewhat distinct notability; even Bubbles the chimpanzee was made into a plush toy and appeared in a video-game. I think the consensus is that, even as a sub-article, if something doesn't posses notability it doesn't meet the criteria of an encyclopedia. Many of the other points you raise seem to argue that the children are indeed notable; being orphaned, set to inherit wealth, and being a distinct legal entity. But I feel that none of these things in-and-of-themselves confer notability; I would hardly expect an encyclopedia article on every legal entity, orphan, or millionaire in the world. I don't think we can take all these distinct factors that do not individually confer notability and say that in aggregate they means something contrary. In regard to your comments that editors do not decide what is important about a subject I agree with you; individual editors cannot make distinctions of what is notable about a particular subject, however consensus can and will. If this were not true sub-articles could be formed about "Michael Jackson's relationship with Brooke Shields" or "Michael Jackson's endorsement of Pepsi-Cola". Regardless of how we as individuals may feel about it, consensus seems to be that Michael Jackson is notable to the public as a, musician, dancer, and eccentric among other things - but not as a parent. Sub-articles should give more detail and further explain subjects that are of extreme notability to their parent subject, and consensus is forming that Michael Jackson's role as a father, or his childrens personal lives following his death, do not warrant an encyclopedia article or sub-article. Solid State Survivor (talk) 00:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Oh no, there's no semi-consensus forming on this page to reject the article/subarticle due to "parenting": in fact, 15 people already said "keep" and only 2(?) specifically said MJ "as a parent" is "not notable". As I tried to explain above, there is a difference between notable and significant. Michael Jackson is a notable person, and I would agree that people have mixed feelings about his parenting skills. However, the problem of calling his parenting as "non-notable for a sub-article" is the strong implication that the topic is unimportant. Hence, the "catch-22" dilemma: if not important enough for a sub-article, why include it in the main article? ...and if important enough to be stated in the main article, how does his parenting lose importance when moved to a 2nd page? So basically, why would people put "non-notable" facts on any page of Knowledge (XXG)?? Do you finally understand the wiki-mind-fry about notions of wiki-notability? Sub-articles have the notability of their main article, but they must have significance as judged by the amount of reliable-source coverage. For MJ parenting issues, there are thousands of reports showing vast coverage of the topic. Contrast with MJ's unreleased "great" new songs from the "This Is It" concert/tour; they might become hit-songs for Jackson, and people might be amazed at their importance for CD sales, but there are very few reports about those songs; hence, the songs are not significant as a sub-article of Jackson (due to lack of sources), but check again if they become hit-recordings when released(!). -Wikid77 (talk) 01:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "Sub-articles have the notability of their main article, but they must have significance as judged by the amount of reliable-source coverage. - not according to Knowledge (XXG)'s defintion of notability. I'm seeing the theme emerging in your lengthy texts that you are using notability in it's real-world usage. That is not the meaning of the phrase here. If you want to subarticle to reduce the size of the main article, then make Music of Michael Jackson, which cannot be doubted to have standalone notability - but if you want to try and set guidelines on when subarticles can be used, AfD debates are not the place to do it. Like it or not, and no matter how you argue it, our existing policies and guidelines do not support your position on sub-articling - feel free to propose these at the Village Pump, get them accepted by the community at large and then we can return and have this debate again. But at this second, nothing about sub-articles here is currently supported by the community as a whole. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment on sub-articles: The issue of determining "article notability" seems to be very confusing to many people. Prior Knowledge (XXG) editors have tried to define/adjust the policies to keep Knowledge (XXG) focused on major, "note-worthy" topics. It has been a major concern in keeping pages full of important facts; however, the 32KB browser limit (such as in IE 6.0 on MS Windows 98) tends to limit articles as being split into those "sub-articles". For example, consider a split into 2 smaller sub-articles:
    "Jackson music before Thriller"   &   "Jackson music after Thriller"
    Both sub-articles would have the notability of Michael Jackson, equally, rather than debating which one is "more" notable. However, suppose the 2nd sub-article contained 1 line:
    "Jackson released the "Billie Jean" single 1 month after 'Thriller'."
    That one-line article would still be notable (as a Jackson sub-article), but the significance would need to be addressed by expanding with a broad range of facts, not just 1 line. Some people would want to protest that the 1-line article was "non-notable", but actually, the issue of notability is about the topic, rather than the article-size. Hence, many notable people have 3-line stub articles, but those need to be expanded for their scope of significance. Well, that explains the 2 factors: notability & significance. So, next question: when does notability differ? Answer: Each person has different notability levels, but that is often termed as "Importance: high/low". Also, notability changes when you omit the name "Michael Jackson" as with song "I'll Be There" - that article must stand on its own, as "making a name for itself". Contrast that with "Michael Jackson's version of Ben" - the 1972 song "Ben" might have been non-notable (rather than the top-hit, Oscar nominee), but if significant sources described the MJ version of the original song "Ben", then that sub-article would be acceptable, even though focused on a more narrow topic. The factor of significance allows any article to be split into logical parts: Michael Jackson can have "37" sub-articles (but not one-liners). In contrast, the factor of notability allows any notable topic to begin with a 1-line article. I understand it might take some people months to fully digest those concepts. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I think it is taking you some time to understand the fact that notability is strictly defined in WP:N and not by the real-world definition of the same term. You want your concept to be policy/guideline accepted by the community - fine, go and do it. But you can't do it at AfD. It is not through lack of "digestion" or thought that many of us reject these concepts - it is the fact that you are arguing against the community norms established in our policies and guidelines that causes rejection. Might I suggest Knowledge (XXG) talk:Notability as an outlet for these views? Fritzpoll (talk) 08:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I realize I have written a lot of details (above). However, what I have written is very much in line with policy WP:N, with the emphasis that notability is about the topic, not limiting the contents of the particular article. Quote from WP:Notability:
"These notability guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article. They do not directly limit the content of articles." -from WP:N
In my writings above, I have merely explained how a notable topic is often covered by a 3-line article. Meanwhile, the tone of writing by User:Fritzpoll is becoming rather caustic (hint: may I say "it is taking you some time to understand" WP:NPA and WP:Assume good faith?). I am not trying to circumvent or argue against community norms, but rather explain the circumstances when a notable-topic article is split into parts: those parts do not suddenly lose notability for the topic. If User:Fritzpoll believes such a viewpoint contradicts WP:N, then I am sorry for any anger generated, but please feel free to amend that policy so that it is clear that notability refers to the topic but not the splitting of sub-articles (does not limit content). I am not re-inventing the rules: "The Da Vinci Code" had 12 sub-articles in 2006 about that single fictional book/film, not even covering 50 years of a person's life. People can't declare: "Michael Jackson only gets 5 subarticles because his life is not notable enough" (incorrect). Use as many sub-articles as needed for future expansion, due to the 32kb limit. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "(hint: may I say "it is taking you some time to understand" WP:NPA and WP:Assume good faith?)" - compare for your comment "I understand it might take some people months to fully digest those concepts.", which is what I was emulating. It was not intended as a personal attack, although if it has highlighted to you how patronising such phrases can appear to someone reading them, all the better. :) I am not angry, I'm simply saying that although other articles do have sub-articles (beware the other stuff exists argument), you've not justified why you've chosen this topic to split off when there is so little said about it in Jackson's biography. Consequently, I argue that the spinoff is an unnecessary content fork when a better alternative to get below the 32Kb limit would be Music of Michael Jackson considering the vast amount of unnecessary detail included in a biography on this subject. Indeed, such a split is being discussed on the talkpage now. But there are two possible reasons to keep this article: either is is a valid fork, which I don't feel has been justified, or it is individually notable, which most people here (including I think you) seem to agree it is not. I'm just pointing out that the fork is not justified and that there are better ways for you to make the information more accessible than by placing non-notable living persons in the perpetual glare of a Knowledge (XXG) article. I can't change the policies you refer to incidentally - they have to be changed through consensus. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • One final point about WP:N not limiting article content, but only the article topic. The topic of this article in the sense WP:N refers to is in this case the "Children of Michael Jackson". To demonstrate that the topic is notable, you have to show that they are notable, because they are the topic. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • For seeing the topic as derived from the title, I understand your viewpoint (shared by others) that the title seems to indicate "children only" and so I suggest (below): #Proposal to rename/move. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge with Jackson family. His children's independent notability is indisputable. But due to how intensely private Michael was, I feel that there is not enough verifiable 3rd hand info to support an entire article. I imagine that in 5 years (Prince will be 17) they'll probably begin to have individual articles.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 14:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • --Perhaps... but this is not the future, this is now... the children themselves are not particluarly notable, of their own accord, at the present time. Wolfpeaceful But I did enjoy reading the article... howeer, the main subject of this article is Michael Jackson, and not really the children, themselves... (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

_________________________________________

Proposal to rename/move

14-July-09: The current title ("Children of Michael Jackson" ) has been interpreted (by many above) to mean "children omitting father", and I can see future problems with that title. Some have proposed other titles for the article, so I list alternate title names:

AN1: "Family of Michael Jackson" - discussed above; possible confusion with extended "Jackson family"
AN2: "Michael Jackson in parenthood" - perhaps?
AN3: "Michael Jackson in fatherhood" - perhaps?
AN4: "Michael Jackson as father" - perhaps?

In fact, the content of the article includes "facts about Michael Jackson raising those 3 children during 12 years plus their birth-parents". The above codes AN1-AN4 allow short referencing in discussion, so AN1 is the "Family-of" title.

Technically, the article, regardless of title, could be given a stated "Wiki-topic of article" on the talk-page, but most people assume the topic from the title words (e.g., they imagine "Brown mouse" is about a mouse not a bird). That's why a title can lead to a debate (such as arguing to rename as "Brown mouse bird" or merge with "List of brown birds"!). Knowledge (XXG) does not yet have spec-pages that identify an article's goal, requirements, or the formal wiki-topic to be judged by WP:N, so the talk-page holds both the long-term background specs (defined if needed) as well as temporary topics (mixed together). Please remember that Knowledge (XXG) is a neophyte project, not having formal article-specs for "article sets" or "IRDs" to define interface-requirements between dependent articles; those are engineering practices that have yet to be adopted here. For those reasons, most people "demand" an obvious title that reflects the topic; and endless debates arise because (on 14July09) there is no official way to designate the "notable wiki-topic" that an article covers. I say the topic is "Michael Jackson", others think "children only". Again, Knowledge (XXG) was not fully engineered by information scientists, but rather just started collecting articles and inventing policies (without any stated knowledge engineering). Hence, choosing a title can be crucial, and perhaps also embed comments that say "Article's wiki-topic = Michael Jackson" plus put talkpage note describing "==Wiki-topic of article==". Furthermore, people might argue the title "Children of Michael Jackson" includes his entourage of youngsters like Macauley Culkin (when age 12). So, let's discuss renaming. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

--The title was not why I personally voted for delete... but rather than content of the article itself... (i.e the children are not actors, nor painters, nor comdedians, nor politicians... they are merely related to a notable person. The title, (if the article is "kept") is okay, in my opinion. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 18:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

--The children are celebrities, for whatever reasons. Therefore, deserve their own article.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Celebrity status has little to do with "notability"... There are no independent verifiable sources referencing the children themselves... all verifiable sources point to either Michael Jackson or Debbie Rowe... or the Jackson Family... notability is not inherited...notability of a parent entity does not always imply the notability of the subordinate entities... Family members of celebrities also must meet Knowledge (XXG)'s notability criteria on their own merits. The fact that these children have famous relatives is not, in and of itself, sufficient enough to justify an independent article, unless those same children had notability independent from their famous relatives. Wolfpeaceful (talk) 16:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

_________________________________________

Proposal to set protection

15-July-09: There are even more issues, raised above, to consider:

  • Becomes issue of WP:BLP: The children are living, so there is the issue of "Biographies of living persons" (BLP). However, the children were already "concealed" within several other Jackson articles, which seems even worse, to mask text about those living children in the article of a deceased person, giving the illusion of no longer a WP:BLP. My feeling, expressed above, is better to separate them in one obvious article, rather than keep updating events about the children's lives in several other Jackson articles.
  • Article protection for WP:BLP: I think this is a strong point to recommend the article for immediate protection because it does contain much detail about those 3 living children, becomes a stronger target for libel, and they are realworld-notable (every day on American TV & on tabloid covers at newstands) so as to attract even more vandalism.

So, please discuss protection, along with other issues. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately, our protection policy does not allow for such preemption. Michael Jackson is an exceptionally heavily watched article, and so the information on the children is much better protected than here, in what will undoubtedly be a less-watched article. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Has 2 notable topics

15-July-09: Numerous issues raised over the past few days have shown that the article "Children of Michael Jackson" has been revealed as covering (at least) 2 notable topics:

  • Notable topic 1: Michael Jackson (notable person).
  • Notable topic 2: Paris Michael Jackson (covered relative of notable)

Although I have never seen an article defined as covering 2 notable topics, it obviously happened in "Thriller (album)" (notable singer+recording as stated above), plus even if no other article claimed 2 notable topics, Knowledge (XXG) does not restrict articles to be merely like other articles. Some relatives get wiki-notability per policy WP:Notability; quote:

"That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being their spouse, is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A)".

Given that Paris K. Jackson (person A) is daughter to well-known Michael Jackson (person B), notability is proven by adding that "significant coverage can be found on A", especially after she spoke to 20,000, televised to millions, at the Jackson Memorial. Her instantly famous remark generated many retro-articles to be written about Paris K. Jackson; hence, now the article stems from 2 notable topics. I will list both on the page Talk:Children of Michael Jackson. Of course, it is very likely that his 2 sons can be shown as notable topics, but I think it is sufficient to justify the article as existing for 2 notable topics. The article cannot be deleted as covering a "non-notable topic" per WP:N, unless both could be discounted, which is highly unlikely. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

As I have repeatedly said, if Paris Jackson derives notability simply from talking at her father's memorial, then that means that she doesn't get an article per WP:BLP1E - cover the event and not the person - we already have an article about his memorial, so this tidbit of information can go there. Michael Jackson is covered as a notable person in the article Michael Jackson, and his children do not inherit his notability. These claims to notability have been discounted by an large number of participants above. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion 2

Discussion of the AfD continues below  (if new to this debate, please read the 2 special sub-sections above, #Recap up to 12-July-09 & #Proposal to rename/move). The renaming codes AN1-AN4 were defined as of 14July09. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment. Thus far, there have been 50 distinctly discernible opinions proffered here. Of those, 36 have recommended either delete or merge with a parent article. This strikes me as clearly discernible consensus that this article should not exist on its own. Given the BLP concerns with having an article written about three minor children, of whom, only one's voice has even been heard, this article should be deleted very soon. Walls of text posted by Wikid77 aside, I have read not one convincing argument as to why the BLP concerns regarding the minor children should be ignored in this case. It also seems very non-standard for Wikid77 to continue to try to offer "summaries" of the discussion, in which he offers yet another long discourse on his views. It makes for difficult reading for those new to the discussion, and that is not helpful at all. Unitanode 16:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Knowledge (XXG) consensus is based on logical agreement with policies, rather than agreement as a simple majority being 36 of 50 replies. Think of the WP-policies as participants at the discussion table. Also, feel free to ignore my summary comments, if you personally wish, but my intention is not to clutter the debate but, rather, summarize (word "recap") all the major issues and the debate points considered for each issue. As the opinions number over 50, then I am trying to combine repeated issues into perhaps 10. I have been a judge for several school debate conferences, so I tend to be thorough, as required in formal debates. I'm sorry if that seems "non-standard" but that's the norm in debates, and I am trying to keep the comments as short as possible, hence some issues have been omitted in the interest of brevity. This discussion needs to be even longer, in all fairness to others. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
    It is non-standard, it does clutter and obscure the discussion, and policies are not on your side in this in any way. I'd encourage you to step back from this, allow it to be closed as "delete" (which it almost certainly will), and revisit the issue if and when any of these three children actually become notable in their own right. Unitanode 17:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Upon closer examination I have begun to grow doubtful that this page currently does or will continue to exist as a subarticle describing Michael Jackson's fatherhood. Two paragraphs found in the lead and nearly half the text on Paris concern events that follow Jackson's death (the performance in the memorial service, and custody hearing). If this were a sub-article restricted to the scope of Michael Jackson's fatherhood this information would be seen as exceeding that scope. This article's current name, "The children of Michael Jackson", indicates comprehensive coverage of that topic - the lives of three non-notable children both with and without their father. The other titles proposed do not reflect the information currently written in this page; the prose of the article is written with the children - and not Michael - as the topic of focus, and as stated before there is information here concerning them that exceeds his parenthood. Wikid has proposed that a sub-article concerning Michael Jackson as a father is warranted (a point I am still willing to argue against), however the article presented here is not the one being postulated. Solid State Survivor (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • When his daughter says publicly, "Daddy was the best father you can possibly imagine..." - I think the scope just got bigger. Plus, she stood in front of 20,000 as viewed by 1 billion ("now remember you'll be on camera all the time"), so I think the scope just got a WHOLE LOT bigger to include the memorial service. Jackson's impact as a father goes beyond his life. We don't stop talking about Van Gogh, as a painter, because he died and can't talk to other artists. Plus suppose Jackson left a secret note to be read, only, when she turns 18? -Wikid77 (talk) 13:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Then when the note is revealed, she can be afforded a Knowledge (XXG) article. We can't give people articles on the basis that they might become notable Fritzpoll (talk) 14:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, they are notable per WP:N allowing for "significant coverage" as relatives of notables; quote from WP:Notability: "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B, such as being their spouse, is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A)". This has led me to launch subsection (above) "#Has 2 notable topics". -Wikid77 (talk) 19:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
    Please stop "launching subsections" to reply to nearly every single deletion recommendation. These children have done nothing on their own to merit an article, save being the children of a famous person. It's a clear violation of the notability policy, as well as our policy on BLPs. No amount of textwalling will change that. Unitanode 17:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. They are not the children of Michael Jackson. They are the children of Debbie Rowe. If kept, the article needs to be moved to Children of Debbie Rowe. Nashassum (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
    While I agree that it should be deleted, moving an article in the middle of a deletion discussion is highly disruptive. If an administrator watching this page could undo the move, that would be appreciated. Unitanode 00:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong delete No offence meant, but someday these kids may be notable on their own - how could they not, really (think Sean Lennon). At that point, yes, they shall get an article. Until then, keep them with their "father". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. I was the first person to argue for keeping this article (see my comment above, on 9 July), but coming back to it now, it's become considerably more detailed and privacy-invading than it was when I made that comment. I've changed my mind, and I now think that for BLP reasons (particularly 'do no harm' and 'presume in favour of privacy'), it must be deleted. A certain amount of information about Jackson's children in other articles is acceptable, but this degree of coverage is excessive and unnecessarily intrusive. We're an encyclopaedia, not a tabloid newspaper. Robofish (talk) 14:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Question I'm assuming that if this is deleted that it will be archived? 208.119.72.6 Wolfpeaceful (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The source in the lead sentence of the article claiming "notability" is really nothing but an article about the Family Trust; this does not establish notability; it merely mentions the children's inheritence after their father's death; "notable as a legal entity" is not technically accurate; the children themselves are not legal property... also Family Trusts are not an uncommon practice... Wolfpeaceful (talk) 17:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Shards of Dalaya (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unnotable Everquest emulation server. First few pages of Google web search are empty of anything except blogs, forums, and torrents, and Google books, news, and scholar are all empty. Likely, suitable sources cannot be found. lifebaka++ 13:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Kaitlin Dason (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's.

"Kaitlyn's background has not been revealed. All that is know is that she started a relationship with Lucas Holden and supported him when his brother Jack was murdered."

The suspense is killing me; delete. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Blood Red Renaissance (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable band. No charted records or albums. No major labels. One review in a local magazine. WikiDan61ReadMe!! 12:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  23:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

NB: Page was moved: Tom Nash (Home & Away character) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Tom Nash (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's. This one's got a really, really long plot summary which they're calling "Character history" here. Nuke from Orbit with a Daedalus class battlecruiser. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. (X! · talk)  · @980  ·  22:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Higher (Heidi Montag song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

With no chart appearances or covers, it fails WP:MUSIC. --Pokerdance (talk/contribs) 11:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

From WP:MUSIC: "Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable." The song does not meet any of those qualifications. --Pokerdance (talk/contribs) 14:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - although it fails WP:SONG, it most certainly meets WP:GNG which is the prime standard for notability. The artistic merits of the song are irrelevant. If it is notable by virtue of being utter crap, so be it. We don't include on the basis of artistic accomplishment; we include on the basis of coverage in independent reliable sources to establish notability. This crap is notable. -- Whpq (talk) 17:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Actually we include on the basis of significant coverage in independent reliable sources. It may have been discussed in reliable sources, but only three articles that discuss the song are reliable. That hardly constitutes significant coverage. Pokerdance 05:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
      • I think you're misreading the WP:GNG which describes significant coverage as "sources address the subject directly in detail". It does, however, go on to say "Multiple sources are generally preferred." Three reliable source is multiple and they do cover the subject in detail. --JD554 (talk) 08:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
        • I agree with JD554's interpretation. Powers 13:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
          • The coverage, although by no means exclusive, is more than just a trivial mention, and represents enough material in each reference to meet the criterion of being significant. Which is a longwinded way of saying that I also agree with JD554's interpretation. -- Whpq (talk) 15:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @980  ·  22:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Ethan Black (Home and Away) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's. So for 7 days of discussion of this ludicrous bit of dreck, I offer Ethan Black. Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC) nb: delete!

As the person who closed the behemoth that was Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin I encourage you to nominate them in clusters, unless your goal is to be pointy. That AFD was explicitly closed so that meaningful discussion could be had about the characters and so that it could be determined if there are any worth keeping. Undoubtably, I suspect that most of them are deletable, but there are probably a handful that are significant enough to warrant keeping.---Balloonman 02:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
others; see User talk:Jack Merridew#The Hugo Deletions where this was discussed. Cluster-noms often fail, so I avoid them. I hear there's talk about a list approach; good, because the ludicrous articles I've looked at gotta go. Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Moyea web player (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod, no indication of how this software product is notable. Lacks 3rd party references RadioFan (talk) 11:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 01:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Joey Rainbow (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, non-notable fictional character bio; was mentioned in Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Hugo Austin which closed wo/prejudice to opening more controlled AFD's. There are 140 or so others; a pox on the 'pedia; delete. Jack Merridew 11:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Non commital depending on whether Orderinchaos's findings pan out. I'll try to remember to revist later Matthewedwards :  Chat  16:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete NAC. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 15:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Javier Carballo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. Unclear notability. The article reads like a resume. Delete.  Blanchardb -- timed 10:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Shereth 16:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Life with ashley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable per WP:NFILMS and WP:GNG. Web search returns no reliable third-party links (just because a film has an imdb entry does not make it notable). SoSaysChappy (talk) 09:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Rumbledethumps (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

DELETE. I see about 4,400 Google matches for this but nothing to suggest it is an actual notable dish in need of a Knowledge (XXG) article. JBsupreme (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep. I'm not aware of any specific policies that cover obscure ethnic foods, but there seem to be enough results on Google Books and Google News to satisfy WP:GNG:
http://books.google.com/books?id=EwkAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA52&dq=Rumbledethumps
http://books.google.com/books?id=wxXHd8w7CDkC&pg=PA36&dq=Rumbledethumps
http://books.google.com/books?id=1WpaFStgnJ0C&pg=PA7&dq=Rumbledethumps
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/06/gordon-brown-labour — Rankiri (talk) 14:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Shereth 16:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Russia – Saint Lucia relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

very little coverage of actual bilateral relations, yes they've recognised each other but that's about it. , . not really rescuable. LibStar (talk) 07:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

no simply have a relation is not enough for an article, there have been at least 300 of these pairing deleted for failing WP:N. LibStar (talk) 23:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's not go through this useless discussion again, shall we? Thas has nothing to do with the written notability guideline, it has to do with its philosophical interpretation. Some folks think that anything that an average Joe Six Pack is unlikely to ever know or show interest in should be deleted, while others believe that if there is even a scrap of useful information (which, of course, should be verifiable), that scrap can be useful to somebody and should be kept. Three hundred or so articles may have been deleted, but how many similar articles have been kept? In my (limited) experience, there's been quite a few as well, which again shows the philosophical nature underlying this mad deletion spree. You can cry "non-notable" all you want; the past outcomes clearly showed that it's nothing but an opinion of a group of people, but certainly not of the whole community. There's been a post somewhere about a month ago calling to freeze the bilateral relations nominations until the problem can be discussed as a whole—whatever happened to that initiative? Regards,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 01:22, July 10, 2009 (UTC)
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is an argument to avoid. we can verify a relationship exists but it is not subject to significant wide third party coverage as per WP:GNG. If you want to keep this article provide some reliable sources. LibStar (talk) 01:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
"Other stuff exists"? Bah! Coming from someone whose argument is "BUTWEDELETEDALLTHATOTHERSTUFF" it sounds, pardon the assumption, disingeneous... It's not about that other stuff exists, either; it's about the fact that it exists because it was kept despite all your best efforts to get rid of it. As for all that other brouhaha with the sources, we (yes, you and me) have already been through that before; I have no intention to cover the length of this circle again, because all my arguments fly over your head anyway. No offense.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 03:04, July 10, 2009 (UTC)
  • Wow. Arguments fly over our heads? Wouldn't it be simpler to just say you think we're idiots and move on? Would save you a shitload of typing. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Hard as it may be, I am doing my best to assume this is a good-faith nomination. There is no need to use language like you've just did and especially put words I never intended to say into my mouth. I understand you might have had a bad day, but it's no reason to take it out on others.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:19, July 13, 2009 (UTC)
Please provide evidence of significant coverage of bilateral relations to back your keep argument. simple. LibStar (talk) 03:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  16:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Gamblers Axiom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Basically pointless essay for a invented term. References don't use the term, and there are zero google hits for it, besides this article. (The link shows 37 results return but they are all along the lines of "Gamblers axiom = Take the money and run"). 2005 (talk) 06:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. The consensus is that enough suitable third-party sources were uncovered over the course of the discussion, demonstrating notability. Paul Erik 21:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Andy Michael (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Contested prod, lacks notability, fails WP:BIO zero references from 3rd party sources. RadioFan (talk) 04:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

    • I have several articles from newspapers, but how can I get them on here. Many of them are old and I have them in paper form. The online version of these papers don't have archives dating back more than a couple of years. The articles are from the 70's, 80's and 90's.Ap3253 (talk) 17:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
      • Scan the newspaper articles to your computer, and then upload them to Flickr or any other photo-sharing

site. Cunard (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Neutral Deletewhile it doesn't appear to be a hoax (going out of the above mentioned websites of online stores), it certainly lacks WP:Reliable sources and fails therefore WP:Notability. By the way the owner of a substantial and significant collection would surely have received an obituary or the like by an online existing newspaper since his death two years ago ... note also that the search function of the website of the metioned "Concord Monitor" is not able to locate anything under the terms "Mitchell" and "baseball" .
No idea how I came to "Mitchell", however you're right, as my research has based on the wrong name, my statement above is obsolete and I therefore will keep myself neutral.
    • You searched and voted based on a search of the wrong name - see below
  • Keep for now. Let's give this article a chance. Sources may be added. Newspaper articles may be scanned... I sure hope they are. Geeky card and comic book collections are a dying breed. I want future generations to know all about them. The Edgar Church collection in comics is a notable and well-known story. In addition, while perhaps notable for his baseball antics, there are mentions of participating in wars which is to me admirable and maybe there are sources of something he did... In truth, I just get a good feeling reading this article and like it. I know these are not technical grounds for keep but this is my vote.Turqoise127 (talk) 21:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment Paid subscription service on the obituary talks about his notability regarding the collection. Not sure how public he was about his collection, so it might not be found on every search engine. That doesn't negate the fact that his collection was large enough that there are still dozens and dozens of high-dollar items still available for sale. It's also hard to verify he was a scout for the Yankees in the late 70's, but unless one can dispute the two players mentioned weren't found by Michael, in his home town, the pieces are adding up.38.97.15.196 (talk) 17:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • There might be something to this. Take the time to scroll thought the items for sale on this site. Most of them are from the Michael collection and personally endorsed:

http://www.gameusedsportsonline.com/baseball-mlb-more-baseball-items.html

  • of particular note:

http://www.gameusedsportsonline.com/joe-dimaggio-signed-sunset-league-program-1980-440.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.15.196 (talk) 18:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment The sources are coming in and the author might need some time to update. In looking at the items for sale at the sites, some of which include the subject of this articles picture, it's clear he was quite a collector. While not "famous", I believe this subject to be notable and the article worth keeping.38.97.15.196 (talk) 19:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The links here are not doing much to establish notability. This isn't a game of "find his name mentioned somewhere". To demonstrate notability, there must be significant coverage where the topic of the article is the subject of the article. Of the newspaper links above the first one is to letters to the editor mentioning Michael, the remaining 2 are to a standard obits (one for his wife, one for him) that anyone (notable or not) may receive. The gameusedsportsonline.com links above are to items for sale. I assume you are suggesting this person is notable based on his name frequently being associated with memorabilia for sale and that this implies that he is a noted figure among the collecting community. If is the case, I would think there would be some feature articles in a newspaper or magazine covering the life of this man. That would establish notability. These links do not. There are numerous magazines covering sports collecting and books have been written on the subject as well so this doesn't appear to be a corner case. Also keep in mind that if deleted, it could be recreated at a later date should sufficient sources be located.--RadioFan (talk) 12:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40373106@N06/

I still don't think these newspapers show him as anything more than a local figure in Concord. I don't think he is notable enough for Knowledge (XXG). Spanneraol (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep I think the requirements for an article have clearly been met. I think his notability extends well beyond local as several newpapers are cited/scanned. Also, collectors are not often showboaters seeking the national spotlight, so they are often only covered in regional publications as this man was. His memorabilia collection aside (some of which is still being sold by dealers across the USA), he was also a scout for the Yankess and responsible for signing Major League players, a decorated WWII veteran, and an all around interesting person. I think this article should stay.162.89.0.59 (talk) 20:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete, salt and block the socks. This much puppetry burns me up. My brother has a very impressive Star Trek collection; he doesn't warrant an article. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 14:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Reply: PMDrive, I sincerely hope you are not calling me a sockmaster. From your comment above, you have voted to delete the article because you believe that this discussion is filled with socks. This is not a valid reason to delete the article. What this AfD debate should be about is whether or not Andy Michael satisfies the notability guidelines. The multiple reliable sources provided in the Flickr uploads by Ap3253 (talk · contribs) show that Andy Michael passes WP:BIO. These sources are from reliable news organizations, such as the Concord Monitor (see here and here), Boston Globe (see here), etc (see here and here). Notability is fully established by these sources.

    You and Giants27 may believe that these sources are questionable because they don't appear on these newspaper's websites. But the reason that they don't appear are that most of them were published more than half-a-century ago — before the Internet was born. Ap3253 (talk · contribs)'s uploads do not look forged to me; they are legitimate sources. Notability is not temporary, so these sources cannot be disqualified for being published several decades ago.

    I hope that the closing admin reads the arguments carefully and weights the ones that actually cite policy. Both Jafeluv (talk · contribs) (see here), Ap3253 (talk · contribs), Turqoise127 (talk · contribs), and I believe that the article satisfies WP:N. If you have issues with which of us is a sock of any other, please point it out.

    "My brother has a very impressive Star Trek collection; he doesn't warrant an article" - true; but has your brother been covered by multiple reliable news organizations? Did he join the army to fight the Nazis during World War II? Has he worked as a scouter for the New York Yankees? If the answers to all three of these questions (but most importantly the first one) is no, then I agree; your brother should not have an article on Knowledge (XXG). But if the answer to the first question is yes, then I must disagree with you and say that your brother should have an article. Likewise, since Andy Michael is discussed in multiple reliable sources, his article should remain on Knowledge (XXG). Cunard (talk) 17:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Not everyone who was in World War II is notable.. and scouting for the Yankees by itself is also not notable. Neither if having a memorabilia collection or being covered by local newspapers in Concord. The debate here is definitely filled with socks.. Spanneraol (talk) 17:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
True, but Andy Michael's participation in World War II garnered him reliable sources. His memorabilia collection also garnered him sources. There is nothing wrong with local notability. In fact, this argument doesn't even apply because the Boston Globe is not in Concord, New Hampshire, or even the state of New Hampshire.

Like PMDrive, you also make a baseless accusation about this discussion being riddled with socks. Again, I request that either of you point out who is a sock of whom. Cunard (talk) 17:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

  • ReplySpanneraol: This is not the first time you have suggested that Michael was only covered in one small town local newspaper. Actually, the sources are from a variety of newspapers, including the Boston Globe. If you are not familiar with the east coast, Boston is a pretty large city and that's no tiny local publication as you infer. As to "socks", I didn't even know what was meant until I looked through the help pages and figured it out. I assure you, I have only posted using my signature. I did have another person familiar with Michael, who supplied some source material, take a look at the article. He did vote and made some comments on here, and if that's prohibited then I apologize. There is a lot more source information available on this person, but I have to ask how many are required?? This article will get improved over time, but to delete because you don't like the sources seems a bit much.Ap3253 (talk) 17:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Cunard, I am sincerely sorry for making you think I was referring to you as a sock. It's patently clear you aren't a sock. I was referring to the anons who showed up seemingly out of nowhere to support this. Since you were able to uncover suitable printed material, I am more than happy to change my vote to keep. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 01:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to List of career achievements by Roger Federer. (X! · talk)  · @979  ·  22:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Roger Federer tennis records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

There already are a Roger Federer article and a List of career achievements by Roger Federer. This article is largely a duplicate of those articles. Chidel (talk) 04:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC) A third article I should have listed originally is Roger Federer career statistics. Chidel (talk) 07:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Shereth 16:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Comparison for Some Video Converters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is original research, with the author just listing the specs for three products and suggesting which one he thinks is best. It is also possibly spam, since the author links to the web site for the product he prefers. The article had a prod tag on it, but it had already had two previous prod tags removed, so I thought it should come here. Calathan (talk) 03:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Delete per everyone KMFDM FAN 20:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. (X! · talk)  · @979  ·  22:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Tunnel Hill Road (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I declined the speedy deletion nomination, so I'm bringing it here for further evaluation. I remain neutral on the matter. –Juliancolton |  03:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. There appears to be a fundamental disagreement as to what constitutes notability in these kinds of circumstances. Roughly half of the participants believe that the sources provided do not demonstrate notability; the other half disagree. I am afraid that this question is not likely to be answered until some broader consensus on a bar for notability for these kinds of articles is eached. Shereth 15:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Lithuania–Romania relations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

whilst noting they have a few agreements , these are not subject to wide third party coverage, and also are pretty standard for EU member countries. Most coverage is in multilateral context . That George W visited Lithuania and Romania in the same trip does not equate to bilateral relations, neither does a football match played last year, but I know of at least 1 editor who would think this is worthy of inclusion, clearly not. LibStar (talk) 02:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

precedent has shown that simply being EU members is not enough to establish notability, take deleted articles Luxembourg-Latvia/Estonia/Romania, Estonia-Malta, Cyprus-Belgium, Denmark-Malta just to name a few. LibStar (talk) 02:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
ApprenticeFan, do see EU members - there's a separate list where readers can see just who is in the EU. - Biruitorul 21:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep Plenty of verifiable and notable information available via a Google search and the diplomatic websites already listed. You also can't, as above, look at the first 10 or 20 results of 5,000 Ghits and declare defeat. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 09:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lithuania-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 03:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 03:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm leaning towards delete because I don't see notability in the standard boilerplate "cooperation in economic development" kind of agreements, nor do I see EU agreements that are in place for a number of nations as being indicative as any notability between these two. But I will hold off a little while to see if anyone locates something that shows actual notability. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. —Cdogsimmons (talk) 15:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. The threshold for a stand alone article is notability, not WP:Verifiability, co-membership in the EU or other organizations, or editors' notions that sources "must" exist if only someone took the time to find them. The article cites zero independent, reliable, secondary sources, and I could not find any either that discuss the topic directly or in detail. This is the best I could find, but I'm not sure of the source's independence or reliability. Even if it is both independent and reliable, the source by itself is not enough to demonstrate notability, in my opinion. Yilloslime C 17:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete - for the record, I searched in Romanian and came up equally short (mostly football matches). Even the Romanian Foreign Ministry has only this to say: "relations exist, a few visits have been exchanged either way, we trade about €32 million with each other (not exactly an impressive sum in economies of $50 billion and $264 billion), we've signed a couple of pieces of paper together, 0.07% of Romanian tourists go to Lithuania, and Romanian citizens can work there (covered here already)". The end. The Lithuanians have even less to say. Given the thoroughly routine nature of the relationship, and given the lack of independent sources on the subject (no, a party at the Lithuanian embassy in Bucharest doesn't cut it), we should delete. - Biruitorul 21:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. This one is close. IMHO, it has the potential in the future to become a notable subject. For now, the specific material listed above fits better other country-specific articles (foreign relations, history, economics, tourism, sport),as it doesn't address specifically the relations. Actually, why don't we deal with this centrally? Can anybody list all X with notable "X-Romania relations". Outside Europe no more than these seem to have sufficiently notable relations with Romania: USA, Canada, Russia, China, Japan, Israel, Iraq, Turkey, Iran, India. Even from these a couple can go. Dc76\ 02:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
    If/when it gets deleted, plese do salvage the text, though. Dc76\ 21:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep This article looks great now. Multiple bilateral agreements and visits. Well sourced. Notability should not be an issue here.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 14:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. User:Biruitorul convinced me with his excellent research. The lack of actual notability (as opposed to fabricated notability) looks apparent to me. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. What is "fabricated" about anything in the article? Once again, this is an encyclopedia, not the Guinness Book of Records or The National Enquirer, so we cover all subjects that have substantial coverage in independent reliable sources, not just the exceptional or sensational ones. I would also add that a predecessor state of Lithuania, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, very definitely had significant relations involving the territory of modern-day Romania over hundreds of years. Unless we are to create even more bilateral relations articles to cover every different historical entity we need to somehow pull this type of historical, encyclopedic, information together. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Trying to twist mundane, pedestrian functions of governments (like an agreement that boils down to "hey, let's encourage tourism, yeah, that's the ticket") into "notable" is what I consider fabricated notability. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Phil, if you're talking about something like the Battle of the Cosmin Forest, then yes, Moldavia and Poland (primarily Poland, not Lithuania) did have significant encounters with one another. But what we would need to tie that history to "Lithuania–Romania relations" is a source actually discussing them in that context, not a personal opinion that the relations of modern-day Romania with the Republic of Lithuania can have retroactive relevance to the 15th century. And contextually, that information is much better dealt with in sections/articles on the foreign policy of Moldavia and of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, not in such an article. - Biruitorul 22:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete Okay, there's embassies. Lots of countries have embassies. There's state visits. Every country does state visits; they're staged well in advance. There's "relatively low" trade. The economy quakes when it moves. There's a handful of fairly typical agreements in international relations. Big deal. About the only significant thing here is the fifty-year gap in relations while Lithuania was part of the U.S.S.R., but that's not enough to carry a claim of notability. --BlueSquadronRaven 05:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete No secondary sources discuss these relations. Fails WP:GNG. Johnuniq (talk) 09:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep The article provides ample reliable and verifiable sources that establish the notability of the relationship. Alansohn (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Question I see that there ample reliable and verifiable sources cited in the article, but which one(s) of these establish notability by covering the topic "directly in detail", as required by WP:GNG? Yilloslime C
You didn't say it, Knowledge (XXG) said it. You truncated the definition, in full it reads "'Significant coverage' means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content." Significant is defined in the sentence as "no original research is needed to extract the content." --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Wrong. I'd appreciate if you didn't play word games. The sentence has two clauses, joined by the conjunction "and". Both clauses must be satisfied for the sentences requirements to be met. I'm saying the first part isn't satisfied. Yilloslime C 15:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment After request by Richard Arthur Norton () I have found some Lithuanian sources that might be somewhat relevant:
    • A couple of articles in newspaper "Kauno diena" (, ) about trade relations between Lithuania and Romania (with Bulgaria). In short - there are some investments (listed), there is some trade, but relationship is not close...
    • An article in newspaper "XXI amžius" (). I guess it is possible to argue that it actually does discuss the bilateral relations (as opposed to, let's say, president's visit or signing of an agreement). For example, it discusses the timings of visits...
    • An article in "Lietuvos istorijos metraštis" (English abstract - ) about the relations during the Inter-War period. As it says, " until the late 1930s the Bucharest and Kaunas governments and politicians never gave any thought to bilateral relations and interests"...
  • Is that "significant coverage"? Well, I guess it is more significant than the coverage in many of the sources currently cited in the article... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 17:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep The sources are clearly sufficient--just as your would expect, considering the politics involved and the relative nearness of the two countries. I can understand nominating for deletion really unlikely pairing on the assumption that no references will turn ups, even without checking, but nominating a pair like this without checking seems to me another matter.DGG (talk) 00:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
didn't you read my nomination, I gave evidence of my google news search? relative nearness of the two countries is not a criterion for notability. LibStar (talk) 01:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
You appear to have looked at the first 10 or 20 results of 5,300 Ghits. There is a difference between running a search and looking at the first few titles, and doing research. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
no I didn't. stop making assumptions of people. LibStar (talk) 06:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep per cursory WP:AFTER. If even only 10 of the 3,820 news hits dealt with the relationship, it would be enough to show notability per guideline... even if the other 3,810 of the hits did not. However, sources found by User:Martynas Patasius convince me that such definitely exist. Improving any article just takes work. That relations between EU countries might be "pretty standard" does not meake such non-notable. Pointing out that other bilateral relations articles might have been deleted does not convince me that this one should go as well. The nom's concerns inre some of the content seems a matter for discussion and cleanup, not deletion. The article as it has been improved since nomination is worthy of inclusion. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 02:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
10 hits have to be non trivial, not merely passing mentions. a lot of google searches are multilateral ie include country X and Y together with another country in the region. LibStar (talk) 02:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Indeed yes. Common sense does not allow me to conclude that 3,820 news hits would all be simply passing mentions. Common sense does not allow me to conclude that 1,650 book hits would all be simply passing mentions. And obviously, as long as included discussion of Lithuania–Romania is not trivial, guideline does not decree that sources discussing Lithuania–Romania cannot also discuss other countries... specially since it is illogical to believe that a country would have a relationship with only one other country and that they would ignore the rest of the world community. Again, kudos to User:Martynas Patasius for the diligent search, and User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) for his improvements. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Common sense may lead one to conclude that with 3,820 ghits, some of those hits must more than passing mentions. But that would be sloppy research and would be wrong. Go thru the first few pages and you'll find that most of the articles contain lists countries which just happen to contain Lithuania and Romania. There is no mention of anything even remotely related to Lithuania–Romania relations. And you might find a article or two like this one which actually does discuss just Lithuania and Romania. But as it talks about only a single event (a meeting between gov'ts) rather than the more general topic of Lithuania–Romania relations and it's only 237 words in total, it hardly constitutes "direct detailed" coverage, and thus doesn't establish notability. So if you do a little more work than simply plugging "Lithuania–Romania relations" into a google news archive search, then common sense leads to the opposite conclusion--that most likely all of the 3,820 ghits are either passing mentions or non-mentions. Yilloslime C 15:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. There is no prejudice against recreation as a disambiguation page, should that become necessary, but given the current paucity of bluelinks (most of the potential targets do not yet exist as articles) I am not going to mandate its creation at this time. Shereth 15:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sharara (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article consists of a random list of uses of a Hindi word or words that seem similar. Quelcrime (talk) 01:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Possible disambiguation candidates include Shararat (film) - 1972 film, Sharara (1959 film), Sharara (1984 film), Shararat (2002 film), and Sharara (singer) from Afghanistan. Mostly redlinks so far, but it's possible that someone searching on "Sharara" cound be looking for any one of these rather than this semi-dictionary page.  pablohablo. 20:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • I've no idea on the likelihood, however I suggested a dab because the words are similar enough for a typo, seeing as there are films called Sharara and Shararat. (I am pretty sure both words are from the same root, one meaning "a spark" and the other meaning "impish, mischievous".) Typos are particularly likely given that both words are transliterated from other writing systems - consider Paratha, Parantha; Mohammed, Mahomet, Muhammad etc. Note also that, even ignoring the Shararats, there remain Attia Sharara, two films called Sharara and a singer called Sharara for disambiguation.  pablohablo. 20:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  15:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Andro-ethnic (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

non notable proto-logism WuhWuzDat 01:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Oddly, the single occurrence (outside Knowledge (XXG)) of "andro-ethnic" indexed by Google, here, seems to use the word to mean ethnic in the sense of "from an ethnic group" (other than my own). Isn't that opposite to what this page says? Cnilep (talk) 21:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete G7 NAC ApprenticeFan 01:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Halo 3 skull finder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Knowledge (XXG) is not a how to site for video games WuhWuzDat 01:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  15:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Dangerous (Cascada song) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

There are no sources saying that this song will be the next single. The article is built completely on original research with statements such as ""Dangerous" has been confirmed as the next single because, as seen in the new advert for Evacuate The Dancefloor, Natalie is seen obviously singing the lyrics to "Dangerous"". This advertisement is for the album and there is nothing to prove that the order in which the songs are played will be the order in which singles will be released. This is a clear-cut, original research article with no reliable sources. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 01:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete Violation of Knowledge (XXG) is not a crystal ball, particularly section 2 of the article: "Individual items from a predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names, pre-assigned to future events or discoveries, are not suitable article topics, if only generic information is known about the item." This article is completely built on speculation. I have seen the advertisement and there is no way to tell what the next single will be. The television commercial is solely for advertisement of the album. No announcements have been made about the next single or singles, nor are there any reliable sources to support the article's contents. --Go1die (talk) 03:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. -- TexasAndroid (talk) 03:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NSONG. Even if the article could satisfy the former, the latter would still compel deletion: "ost songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article.... Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. Notability aside, a separate article on a song is only appropriate when there is enough verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." That settles it for me. - Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 14:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  00:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Country Concert (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Totally unreferenced article, tagged for cleanup and wikification as well as sources since April 2008, about a smalltown music concert. No evidence of notability; there are about 6,800 Google hits, but they're all blogs or Myspace or buy-a-ticket-for-Country-Concert websites, and absolutely no reliable sources are to be found. Nyttend (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  00:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Parker Jacobs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete: as non-notable vanity page. Subject's claim to fame is apparently that he is a graphic artist from a long-standing Mormon family, which is the best I could decipher, as an old fogey. Appears to fail WP:NOTABLE. (talk) 01:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, see: his sister Rachel Jacobs' AFD for more info and votes/opinions re Parker Jacobs' deletion. (talk) 01:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Washington Nationals minor league players. The target of the merge can be discussed/amended as necessary. –Juliancolton |  00:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Graham Hicks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Low level minor league baseball player, currently playing in "short season A" league. Has not achieved notability. Spanneraol (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 12:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

List of top prize losses in Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Seems to just be a list of random, fancrufty, unencyclopedic information. T (Formerly Known as FireSpike) 00:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

BTW, Tavix, there is no US section because nobody on the American version of the show has answered the last question incorrectly.--Tomballguy (talk) 18:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)Chris

Excuse me Tavix, but did you know Japanese has the most number of contestants who get the final question wrong, and that happen at least once every year, so this is the place to show this interesting fact, so please keep it. It's very interesting. Thanks-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.132.243 (talk)

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The result was merge to Washington Nationals minor league players. –Juliancolton |  00:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hassan Pena (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Low level minor league baseball player, currently in the Rookie leagues. Has not achieved notaility. Spanneraol (talk) 00:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Weak delete What about the Metropolitans and the Industrials, the Cuban teams for which he played? Unless we can prove that they're fully professional, delete, but we should see whether he were perhaps fully professional before becoming a minor leaguer. Nyttend (talk) 01:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Washington Nationals minor league players. Seems a reasonable solution. –Juliancolton |  00:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Juan Jaime (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Very low level minor league baseball player, played in the dominican leagues last season and is in "short season A" this year. Has not achieved notability. Spanneraol (talk) 00:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Australia's Next Top Model, Cycle 5. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 12:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Clare Venema (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Person who didn't won Australia's Next Top Model, Cycle 5, no notability and no sources in this article. ApprenticeFan 00:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • DO NOT DELETE: The show only finished 2 days ago, she was the front runner to win the show, and her eviction shocked most people, she was voted favourite model of the series by the public. I'd say her and the runner up Cassi are the two from the show will be the ones to watch. At least give Clare a few months to do some modelling before deleting her surely, as I said, the show finished only 2 days ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.63.55.218 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

— 121.217.235.220 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • DO NOT DELETE: Found some very good informations from her before the show.

Rfsilveira (talk), 01:07 July 10, 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.75.47.171 (talk)

— 189.75.47.171 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Sure the account User:Rfsilveira exists and is active since several years now . Please check more carefully. --Ilion2 (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
That isn't the account that posted that comment. The one you link to has had no activity since July 1, 2009. If you actually click on the one above, in the comment signature, you'll see that it goes to a non-existant page. The talk link goes to the account you linked to. Someone forged the signature. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was speedy deleted by someone, NAC. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 15:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hayden Kho Support Group (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable support group. Google search only gives 16 hits mostly facebook, the group's page and some replies to news articles and forums by the founder. For background on the controversy see Katrina_Halili#Controversies Lenticel 00:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Redirect can be created if necessary. –Juliancolton |  00:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Chris Solis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a blatant hoax about a depressed mother elephant who goes to a motel room and hangs herself after accidentally killing her baby. Edison (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Asali Baby Elephant Dies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This should be deleted per WP:NOT#NEWS, as it is nothing but a news story. A redirect to Memphis Zoo would not be appropriate due to the implausible title of this article, so deletion is the only viable option. ThemFromSpace 00:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Delete--I have nothing to add to the concise case made by the nominator, except for my consent. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment I speedily deleted the article as a blatant hoax, which claimed that the mother elephant had hung herself in a motel room. It had been re-created after previously being speedily deleted as a blatant hoax. This was not a story about the baby elephant dying. Edison (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy deleted (G7) by Nyttend. NAC. The Junk Police (reports|works) 02:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Dancing With The Antichrist (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Yeah So. I made this a while ago, but now I know it doesn't meet wikipedia's nobility standards. Non-notable album. KMFDM FAN 00:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Deleted under G7, as noöne has made any significant edits except the author, who has plainly requested deletion by nominating it here. Nyttend (talk) 01:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  00:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Treadsetter (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Appears to be a neologism that was just made up one day. I don't think this is vandalism to the point of meeting any of the criteria for speedy deletion, but its close. ThemFromSpace 00:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 01:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The Entertainer of Love (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article about a planned reality television show contains no substantial information beyond links to a casting call. It should be deleted as WP:CRYSTAL until a verifiable airdate is published by a reliable source, at which point, it could be re-created. Plastikspork (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Knowledge (XXG) is about consensus right? Well the consensus on those show has been to keep the pages until now. The Megan Wants a Millionaire page has been here since the casting call has been issued and nobody complained. Same for Daisy of Love. I don't get the point of deleting now that the page has been created. That would just lead to two wastes of time (one when this page was created and one when it'll be recreated). The show will air eventually ad the show will need its page then, so why not keep the page. For those reasons I'm voting keep.--Whadaheck (talk) 17:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment - So which is it? Is it The Entertainer (TV show) or The Entertainer of Love? It seems like there are speculation issues, checking the page move history. If you would like, I can point you to examples where these pages were deleted. I would say that NFF for films is a good criteria if you want to set a precedent. Once a premiere date has been confirmed by a reliable source, then it would seem that it fails to be WP:CRYSTAL. Thanks. Plastikspork (talk) 04:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
At first it was called "The Entertainer Of Love" but a later blog stated only "The Entertainer" (here: http://blog.vh1.com/2009-06-29/more-sober-house-fit-club-pepa-and-chilli-on-the-way-from-vh1). It is not speculation, it is name shifting, like Trophy Wife became Make Me Your Trophy Wife and then Megan Wants a Millionaire.--Whadaheck (talk) 13:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep: I'm voting keep as well, because I agree that this page should be kept. It's a complete waste of time if it's just going to be recreated again. I say leave it on here, it's not doing any harm at all. WikiMaster500 (talk) 00:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: See WP:NOHARM and WP:OTHERSTUFF and WP:INHERITED and WP:LOSE and WP:NOTAGAIN. Thanks. Plastikspork (talk) 04:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I don't think sometime in 2010 from a blog a reliable premiere date. Plastikspork (talk) 04:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
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  • Delete. WP:CRYSTAL, noting that the two references are blogs and are so presumed to be not sufficiently reliable. Userfy on request for WikiMaster500 or any other editor, but this should not be in mainspace until it has independent reliable (not blog) third party sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
How are official blogs from the network reporting press releases from said network not reliable?--Whadaheck (talk) 13:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Things titled “blog” tend not to be considered serious. In this case, the blog postings are non-independent, and so the entry can be considered promotional. A more specific guideline is WP:NFF --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Kwertii's links show that it exists, none of them are reliable sources, and as such, do not establish noability for Knowledge (XXG). (X! · talk)  · @979  ·  22:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Armed Bear Common Lisp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable software product TexasAndroid (talk) 23:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

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  • Delete per the lack of reliable sources. Kewrtii's Google search returns many Google results, but none of them are reliable sources that cover Armed Bear Common Lisp in depth. A Google News Archive search returns no results, and I have been unable to find sources through other searches. Cunard (talk) 18:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep - simply because you've never heard of it doesn't mean that it's not notable. While ABCL is certainly not international headline news on the front page of the New York Times, it is a major Lisp implementation which is well known among Lisp programmers. To establish notability further than the above Google search, herewith a selection of third-party ABCL references, among the many others that exist:
    • - Peter Seibel (author of a popular Lisp textbook)'s Lisp FAQ; includes ABCL as a major Lisp implementation (the first one listed, in fact)
    • - well known, major, third party Lisp wiki, indicating notability
    • - another well known, major, third party Lisp wiki article
    • - major international Lisp conference that includes ABCL based presentations.
    • - well known, major, third party Lisp blog which references ABCL here and elsewhere, numerous times
    • - New York City Lisp club's Google Summer of Code proposal including ABCL work
    • Usenet discussion of ABCL in com.googlegroups.jvm-languages — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwertii (talk • contribs)
Please read WP:NOTE. References to establish notability must be reliable, independent, non-trivial. Other wikis, blogs, and Usenet discussions are not reliable. The remainder would be considered trivial references, as none are directly about ABCL, they just happen to mention it. I'm sorry, but those just do not IMHO establish notability to Knowledge (XXG)'s standards. Sorry. - TexasAndroid (talk)
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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Sport Blowgun French Open (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

a non notable sporting competition. no coverage in google news in English or French.the article includes the day's agenda such as a barbeque! LibStar (talk) 07:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

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The result was The result was Redirect to Radiohead per WP:CRYSTAL via WP:HAMMER and WP:SNOW. Once sufficient verifiable information is available from reliable sources, this action can be easily reversed.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 20:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Radiohead's eighth studio album (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Album has received no significant coverage; article is speculative and until recently, based largely on WP:OR. Will this album ever actually come to fruition? Ask the crystal ball.

Unlike In Rainbows, this album does not yet have enough independent coverage to warrant an article. Bdb484 (talk) 00:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to 1993 Philadelphia Phillies season. SoWhy 11:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Macho Row (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is a minor term, even for someone who knows the Phillies. It's not culturally significant enough to have its own article and has only one reference. Delete or redirect to 1993 Philadelphia Phillies season or History of the Philadelphia Phillies. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Zeitz Foundation for Intercultural Ecosphere Safety (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

fails WP:ORG, no third party coverage LibStar (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  00:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Dallas (Producer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Lacks in-depth coverage in multiple sources independent of the subject. Biruitorul 05:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello ! Please let me know how can i solve the "in-depth coverage" problem and consequently how can i improve my article to avoid future mishappenings like this. Thanks ! Mandarinu

Well, by finding and incorporating coverage about Dallas found in independent, professional newspapers, magazines and such. That's how notability is established - not by having a website or a MySpace page. - Biruitorul 14:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was delete. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Macklin Finley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails notability guidelines and includes no reliable or verifiable sources. Bmg916 18:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

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  • Delete. The editorial review at Amazon describes the author as: "Macklin Finley is a goof-ball who bounces around the country writing unsellable books of poems." . His 2008 35 page "book" "Hairy Engine with Wings" is already out of print. The 2007, 80 page "Pure Ether Funk" is ranked #3,779,516. They don't even give info on the 2009 "The Mutt". So I'm thinking non-notable WP:CREATIVE. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. I cannot find any coverage of this poet, and Niteshift's info supports my findings. Drmies (talk) 04:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Valéry Grancher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Deletion proposed: non-notable, self-advertisement, possibly a hoax.--Galassi (talk) 22:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Keep - Definitely not a hoax. A quick Lexis Nexis search produced 24 French articles about him and 1 English article from the Washington Post (April 10, 2002 Wednesday, section: STYLE; Pg. C01) - I can send people the English article if need be. 20 articles are from the French newspaper Le Monde which seems to assert notability. Having said that, this article needs a very serious clean-up. Whole sections (especially Valéry Grancher#Some pieces analysis should probably be removed. Panyd 16:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Delete. Google yield nothing of the sort, and neither did NexisLexis.http://www.google.com/search?hl=ru&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aru%3Aofficial&q=%22Val%C3%A9ry+Grancher%22+%22washington+post%22+April+10%2C+2002&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA&lr= French articles refer back to French wiki. Insufficient notability even if not a hoax.Galassi (talk) 16:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I have stricken the above, as nominator your views on deletion are already apparent. No hard feelings :-) Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 19:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
What exactly did you put into Nexis Lexis? When I searched for "Valéry Grancher" in Lexis it came up with 25 results including a Washington Post article. I have no COI in this article and I'm not a liar. Panyd 19:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Keep - Quite obviously notable - Google shows several dozen news hits at here. that said, one of you says that LexisNexis provides stories, and the other says it doesn't. Could we have some proof one way or the other? Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 20:07, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

HollyWild Animal Park (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable animal park. TexasAndroid (talk) 23:54, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. When notability is uncertain at this moment, then WP:CRYSTAL states that we cannot keep the article. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ajile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not establish its notability, and a quick Google search doesn't suggest that it will anytime soon. Also seems to serve only to advertise the framework. — Error 22:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

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  • Delete. This was previously on afd at Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/AJILE/2006-07-13 and Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/AJILE, though the quality of those discussions is abysmal. The article is a blatant advertisement and manual primarily written by the software's author that Knowledge (XXG) has been abused into hosting for three and a half years now, waiting for it to "establish notability". As amply (and proudly!) evidenced by the software's official site itself, it has not. No third-party sources are presented to establish notability, almost certainly because none exist; googling finds nothing better than a handful of mentions on blogs. After this framework has become notable an article would be appropriate. That time is not now, and we've given it more than enough leniency in the meantime. —Korath (Talk) 14:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete again. per User:Korath. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep None of these Delete votes appear to come from individuals with the technical knowledge to speak on this subject. So far these Delete votes seem opinion rather than fact based. This article can be improved to meet Knowledge (XXG)'s standards, why not use your apparent Knowledge (XXG) expertise to improve rather than delete it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.141.58.29 (talk) 11:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Without third-party reliable sources, the article in fact can not be improved to meet Knowledge (XXG)'s standards, and our Knowledge (XXG) expertise cannot be applied. If we were to apply our technical expertise, that would be original research, which is explicitly forbidden; no one else would be able to determine whether the article was valid without duplicating that research. —Korath (Talk) 13:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete. I ran across this article because of a completely inappropriate link from Unobtrusive JavaScript, which further supports the idea that this is essentially an advertisement.--Inonit (talk) 16:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
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The result was keep. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Sigmund Mifsud (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non notable person. Gordonrox24 |  01:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton |  00:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Computalk (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Advertising Tom King and the radio show Dingbatter (talk) 13:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

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