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The result was redirect to The Village (film). MBisanz 05:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Those We Don't Speak Of (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This fictional group does not establish notability independent of The Village (film) through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so the coverage in the main article is enough detail. TTN (talk) 23:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

(whisper) Should we be discussing this? Mandsford (talk) 00:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
(particularly loud) Why not? Tealwisp (talk) 05:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Underworld (film series) . MBisanz 05:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Marcus Corvinus (Underworld) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This character does not establish notability independent of Underworld (film series) through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so any coverage in the plot sections of the main articles is enough detail on the character. TTN (talk) 23:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a good title for the redirect destination. Tealwisp (talk) 05:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not establish notability through significant coverage of real world context in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject. Jay32183 (talk) 06:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: There has been a similar discussion for another character article from the same series not so long ago listed by the same nominator. I notice that the nominator has now listed three more articles which are no different from the earlier article in terms of content. Is it possible that a joint merger/deletion discussion could be held at the film series article which would dissolve all such articles listed in Category:Underworld characters, thus ending the issue once and for all? Sleaves talk 17:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    • That's been attempted with other works of fiction in the past. When that happens people start complaining that the nomination is out of hand, or find a source for one character and use it as justification to keep every character article. For some reason those invalid arguments don't get ignored. Jay32183 (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I have seen that happen. But has something of that sort at least being attempted here? Or is this just a way to avoid and bypass such comments? Sleaves talk 03:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
This is just to bypass that. People asking for a unified discussion don't usually seem angry, but people asking for separate ones often do. If you have to upset some one, make it the people who can handle it. Jay32183 (talk) 08:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Matthew W. Gassen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Advert-like article of non-notable person. Unable to find any significant coverage in independent reliable sources. References cited are:

  • Actually it refers to a journal, specifically an article on a meeting, which doesn't require scientific standing to write or have accepted. If it was a textbook or actual scientific article, it might well have contributed to notability.- Mgm| 00:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Bongomatic 23:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - Reads like a resume, fluffy and cuddly. How in the world are we to get a balanced view of this person? If the fluff were removed, Most notably, conducting his studies abroad entirely in French - Matt's interests are still varied, the article would be a stub. How is he notable? Aside from the Kansas board appointment? Do we want an article on every appointment to every board of every political body? Maybe some of the keep arguments will change my mind. --72.87.165.137 (talk) 07:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete No reliables sources to establish notability. The references provided in the article are not sufficient to establish notability, and in some cases, are self-published and as such aren't necessarily reliable. -- Whpq (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
  • comment I contacted Gassen's website asking for any possible sources or notable projects he's worked on, I'll let you know the results ASAP, but I do ask that we hold off closing this until we can check any sources I am referred to. Tealwisp (talk) 00:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep First of all, never can we forget that we have been instructed to ignore all rules when they stop us from improving the project. Second, I've heard back from Mr. Gassen, who has directed me to the first source listed on this page. Upon review, I would say that the article, at the very least, does provide enough notability to keep the article, especially under WP:IAR, which is policy, and therefore overrides the guidelines of WP:RS, which does not say anything about needing significant coverage; the word "coverage" does not even appear in the guideline. We can all agree that this is not a vanity page, nor is it a malicious page of any kind. If a policy or guideline prevents us from keeping this article, which we know can contribute, then we must ignore the guideline. Should these undeniable truths be denied by an administrator, at least let me take the page into userspace and clean it, source it, and expand it until it can survive the this harsh wikiworld. In fact, given the state of the article, I would put up with it being moved to my userspace for a little while so we can make it better. Tealwisp (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe anything prevents you from copying the page to your user space now or any time until the page is deleted. By the way, it is not WP:RS that requires coverage to be significant, but WP:N. Bongomatic 23:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
WP:N is a guideline. That means that it is superseded by policy, such as WP:IAR. Thank you very much, If there are no further questions, I think we can call this closed, with a decision to keep. My point about userspace was simply that I think this article is definitely worth keeping, though some may not share my views on the legitimacy of wikipedia's policy, and if they deleted the article, I would like to keep it and make it more keepable. Tealwisp (talk) 01:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete the relevant policy is that the content of wikipedia has to be encyclopedic, which means in this context that a person who is the subject of an article must be notable, and this has to be demonstrated. At this point in his career, I don't see anything which in any reasonable way would justify that: various not particularly remarkable student activities and earning a law degree is not by itself appropriate significance for an encyclopedia entry, nor is work as one of the executives of a department store, nor is being on the sustainability advisory board of a small city. When he has completed " devoting his additional time to developing a course of study for educating others on sustainability and corporate responsibility." and the work is published and the subject of multiple stories in major news sources, then there will be occasion for an article. I speedy deleted an earlier version,but it was recreated. I am not altogether sure I would regard the material as suitable for userspace. WP is not for self-advertising. Any applicable use of IAR in this case would be to keep the article out of Knowledge. DGG (talk) 02:00, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I hate to repeat myself, but notability is a guideline, a subset of Verifiability, and if you wish to point to WP:NOT, I'll have to point to the same thing, as it says within WP:NOT that wikipedia is not governed by statute (the point of Ignore All Rules). This article is the occasional exception mentioned in the header of guidelines' pages. Tealwisp (talk) 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. MBisanz 05:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Michael Corvin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This character does not establish notability independent of Underworld (film series) through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so any coverage in the plot sections of the main articles is enough detail on the character. TTN (talk) 23:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Underworld (film series) and merge heavily condensed plot details as per WP:FICT. Also the name itself makes for a reasonable redirect. - Mgm| 00:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not establish notability through significant coverage of real world context in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject. Jay32183 (talk) 06:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge all Underworld characters to new article Underworld characters and delete category. JulesH (talk) 17:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unlikely that this subject has received sufficient non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources to establish notability. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep due to significant non-trivial coverage in independent reliable secondary sources (see these and these, for example) that establish notability of this main character who appears in films and novels. The consensus for even characters in this franchise with less notability than Michael was to merge or redirect (see Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Amelia (Underworld) and Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Erika (Underworld)), so deleting an article on one of the main characters given that precedent would be bizarre. Please also note that this is technically a second nomination per the earlier mass nomination at Knowledge:Articles_for_deletion/Selene_(Underworld). Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    Parroting my term "significant non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources" is unproductive. That book search does nothing to establish that the coverage is "non-trivial" in any of those sources - several of which are obviously officially-licensed and thus not even independent. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Not every character receives even those mentions. The comments in all the reviews that are not officially licensed represents significant non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources. And this is just what shows up on Google News and Google Books, which is fairly comprehensive, but not all magazines and newspapers with reviews will turn up in these results. The character is a legitimate search term that is of interest to our readers and editors and as it can be verified, as the other discussions on lesser characters did not result in deletion, there is no real reason for outright deletion. I can understand cases for merging and redirect, but notability and verifiability are more than sufficient to justify something other than outright deletion. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
      • In order: a) That there are even less notable characters is not an argument to keep this one; b) "Non-trivial" applies to each source in isolation, and thus even a plethora of trivial mentions does not add up to one non-trivial one; c) Sources which have not been provided cannot be used as evidence; d) being a "legitimate search term" may be an argument for a post-facto redirect, but not for a keep; e) WP:WAX. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
        • Reply: a) Well, it is certainly not an argument to delete this one; b) Such sources as this analyzes the characters' relationships in a critical and scholarly manner which is hardly "trivial"; c) I link to the results above and cite an example in point b in this reply; d) which means something other than deletion; e) don't see a problem there, because even without the other results, this one is still notable anyway as a main character in a major franchise. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
          • A post-facto redirect is not an argument to keep. Being a "main character in a major film series" is not grounds to keep unless such a role induces non-trivial coverage in multiple independent sources. You've found one so far in the Sex and the Cinema book, which while only a page long is at least non-trivial. Find more of that caliber and I'll be happy to change my mind. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
            • I am not arguing to redirect, I think this character is sufficiently notable to keep due to non-trivial coverage in multiple indepdent sources. Something else to look at for out of universe information are interviews, such as this one where the actor talks about playing the character. He is also one of five characters from the series to be made into an action figure. I view that book along with the comments in reviews as well as the material from such interviews as the one cite above as sufficiently non-trivial, but as always I will see what else I can find. Thanks for keeping an open-mind. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Temporary keep. I started a discussion with A Nobody that can be found in User talk:Magioladitis in which we are discussing which characters should remain and which should be merged in a list of characters. Since they are some real world elements around (conception, interview, action figures, etc.) I am very confident that we can create a high quality List of characters where we can merge all the important information from the individual articles. Since "Michael Corvin" appears in three films and other media, it makes the character a pleasant searchable item, so deletion is not an option. To perform a good merge we need time to discuss it. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Per Magioladitis, discussion good for soul. -- Banjeboi 15:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Per the three guys who came ahead of me in this discussion. :) Ecoleetage (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge & Redirect to whatever "List of ...", per CRUFT. Ryan4314 (talk) 17:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep for the reasons above. And this "notability through the inclusion of real world information" nonsense is a plague on WP. Laurent paris (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was merge to Underworld (film series) . MBisanz 05:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Corvinus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This character does not establish notability independent of Underworld (film series) through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so any coverage in the plot sections of the main articles is enough detail on the character. TTN (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Underworld (film series) and merge heavily condensed plot details as per WP:FICT. Also the name itself makes for a reasonable redirect. - Mgm| 00:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not establish notability through significant coverage of real world context in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject. Jay32183 (talk) 07:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge all Underworld characters to new article Underworld characters and delete category. JulesH (talk) 17:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Insufficient non-trivial coverage of this subject from reliable independent sources. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep due to significant non-trivial coverage in independent reliable secondary sources (see these and these, for example) that establish notability of this notable character from the series who appears in both the film and novel. The consensus for even characters in this franchise with less notability than Alexander was to merge or redirect (see Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Amelia (Underworld) and Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Erika (Underworld)), so deleting an article on one of the main characters given that precedent would be bizarre. Please also note that this is technically a second nomination per the earlier mass nomination at Knowledge:Articles_for_deletion/Selene_(Underworld). Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    Copy-paste keep rationale. Several of those sources are non-independent, and there is no proof that any are non-trivial. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    Hmm... Why not note copy and paste delete nomination or copy and paste delete rationale or does it only matter when it is someone who disagrees with you? Look through the sources. I would say multiple reviews commenting on the character who appears in both a film and novelization is not trivial and given the precedent of merging even minor characters I cannot imagine why that would not be an option here. Best, --A Nobody 19:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    If you believe other editors should not be copy-pasting rationales, please bring that to the attention of the editor(s) in question. "Multiple reviews commenting on the character" have not been found - only incidental mentions of him in the course of discussion of the film plot, which is "trivial coverage" as we define it. And there is no firm precedent in merging minor characters, as you should well know from your participation in dozens or hundreds of AfDs on similar subjects which ended with a straight deletion. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    Well, don't use a "copy and paste keep rationale" ad hominem approach against me when not taking issue with those on your side of the discussion who do the same. I am happy to discuss with editors, but not to entertain hypocrisy. And taking an ad hominem approach does nothing to build toward a consensus. There is no firm precedent for deletion either, but in this particular case recent AfDs concerning other characters in this franchise closed as merge and redirect and given the suggestion above about merging to a character list, I see no reason why that wouldn't be a good idea. We know from the references that have been presented the character is not made up, that he appears in a mainstream theatrical film and novelization of that film and that reviews in even multiple languages acknowledge this character, i.e. it is not merely a case of some anonymous Girl 3 or something in the credits. If we keep this verifiable content in some manner, then we augment our coverage of this still growing franchise (a third film is on route), so it isn't as if the notability is decreasing for these characters either. I see no benefit to the project with outright deletion here. Sincerely, --A Nobody 19:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. I am not copy-pasting rationales, so I am not a hypocrite. You're right that there is no firm precedent for deletion either, but I did not argue for deletion on precedent. Nor is this a speedy deletion candidate, so whether it is "made up" is not in question. Whether it is of "benefit to the project" to delete stubs on fictional characters is outwith the scope of this deletion discussion, but it is certainly commonplace and thus is not out of the question. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    It is strange to point out the style of one editor's argument when it is opposite of what you agree with while disregarding that others who agree with you took the same approach to these discussions on these particular characters, but it's not really a fair accusation of copying and pasting when in addition to posting in these threads, I also looked for and added references to the articles in question, which means the addition of different references to the respective articles. I just see nothing productive from making such a point as it has nothing to do with the merits of the article under discussion. Thus, my contribution here goes beyond my comments in defense of the articles as I also personally worked a bit to improve the articles in question. My feeling is that this stub is expandable and improveable and I began some steps in that direction. I wouldn't lose sleep over a merge and redirect that retains the edit history for when additional sources turn up, which I believe is likely given that a third film is still coming out. Considering that we will have had three films, two novels, and even a video game, the main characters will have coverage in a wide variety of media and these articles serve as a means of navigating to those different media. Best, --A Nobody 20:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    You're free to work on whatever you like, but that doesn't change the fundamentals of our notability requirements, which are predicated on the existence of non-trivial coverage in multiple secondary sources. Furthermore, there is nothing untoward in me pointing out that what would appear at first glance to be a well-considered argument pertaining directly to this article had in fact been copied directly from another AfD with the names swapped - an easy way to avoid this in future is to not do so, and if it reflects badly on the arguments of other too then that's fine with me. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    If you check the wording, it is not "exactly" the same as Michael is the more notable character thus far in the franchise, but the coverage is non-trivial enough for Alexander in multiple secondary sources that the character merits inclusion on our project in some manner, whether it is to be kept and expanded on as I believe possible or even if someone wanted to make a reasonable case for a merge and redirect for now. Sincerely, --A Nobody 20:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect. No notability outside the film but probably a searchable item -- Magioladitis (talk) 02:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I checked better and this is a notable character in the film. It plays a centric role. I changed the text above. -- Magioladitis (talk) 02:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I see that. Thanks! Sincerely, --A Nobody 02:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
We are underway in creating a characters' article. Check User:A Nobody/Underworld characters. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Underworld (series) due to lack of notability. The article is not salvageable... the three references of the four in this present revision only repeat what is shown by the primary sources. Just because secondary sources repeat the basic information does not make the figure notable. The fourth reference about how the character is received does not qualify as significant coverage; it is merely an addition to play up this figure as if he is notable. —Erik (talk • contrib) 04:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 05:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Barbara Vernon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

fails WP:BIO very little Google news coverage. Michellecrisp (talk) 23:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete - Fails wp:bio. Only sources are specialized or have trivia mention. Needs more sources to estabilsh notability. --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 00:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. —Espresso Addict (talk) 01:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - I don't believe that Google News is now the hurdle that people have to overcome to be included in WP. It is but one indicator of notability. The question is does it fail WP:BIO? While Omarcheesboro asserts it, this editor provides no evidence of this. Vernon is clearly notable enough to be on ABC PM, Australia's most respected current affairs program. They don't interview just anyone. She is obviously at the forefront of the maternity debate in Australia as evidenced by her being appointed to the Health Minister Nicola Roxon's high level Ministerial advisory group. Surely if someone is after information about Vernon because of her appointment, WP is a good place to come. I would have also thought that Vernon meets the WP:BIO requirement of: "has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field." Even if it is such a narrow field as birth politics and midwifery. She was apparently the lead author of the "National Maternity Action Plan" which has now led to the Australian Government to do the National Maternity Services Review. I will attempt to find other references over the next week. Meerkate (talk) 03:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - I support the comments above. How can Google be the definer of who is notable? Having gone and read the Knowledge notability criteria it is clear that Barbara Vernon is notable, even if not among the general population. She is certainly well known in the Australian and New Zealand midwifery profession, as well as among Australian consumers. To delete her on the basis of her google ranking seems spurious. She has written in several major midwifery text books and is a prominent midwifery lobbyist as I think the references show. What more is required? Omarcheesboro states that the sources are specialized and thus aren't valuable. This is silly. She works in a specialist field. She's not an actor or sports person. Does this mean that to be notable you cannot be a specialist? What other references are needed? SkeeterNZ (talk) 06:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - I don't mean to speak for the nom, but the google news mention was in addition to failing wp:bio. As far as specialized sources, considering one of the references listed is simply an interview where the subject has a few quotes, and is not given any sort of significant coverage , I suppose it makes me question the other sources. --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 13:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Kings and Roads (Air Gear) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This fictional topic does not establish notability independent of Air Gear through the inclusion of real world information from reliable, third party sources. Most of the information is made up of original research and unnecessary plot details. There is no current assertion for future improvement of the article, so the coverage in the setting section of the main article is enough detail on the topic. TTN (talk) 23:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete. My head is spinning after trying to work out what the article is about. After some look at the article List of Air Gear characters, I think that "Kings and Roads" is a subset of characters along with their special abilities. A list of characters is acceptable as a sub-article but this sublist seems overly specific. I also harbor some doubts that the content can be sourced, even directly from the manga. Much of the content looks like am interpretation of Air Gear's plot, and is probably original research. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • To clarify, I want to keep List of Air Gear characters, since I think a list of characters is a valid sub-article which provides information on a significant aspect of that manga. I want to delete this "Kings and Roads" article because I think the content is mostly incomprehensible, and original research, and from what I could see, the kings are already described in the character list. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Aargh!!!!! I can see now why you were confused, I made a huge "misprint" in my vote writing "Delete with List of Air Gear Characters" instead of simply "Delete" (this article, and only this article). Some text must have been inadvertently been moved by highlighting, or during a revision of the text. I have amended that now. Hope I have clarified matters, and sorry about the confusion. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Kloof, KwaZulu-Natal#Schools. MBisanz 04:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Kloof Junior Primary School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

fails WP:ORG. no evidence of notability as a school for a stand alone article. Michellecrisp (talk) 23:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. John254 00:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Trangleball (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Seems to be something made up one day. Stifle (talk) 21:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

It exists for 20 or so years now. Several schools have teams that play it. There's a league. There's a website. There are news articles discussing it. What more could you ask for? advance512 (talk) 22:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Erika Zhao (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced article on chinese bassist. Attempted to find any sources to denote notability, but unable to locate such content. Oscarthecat (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Robert Paisola (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This appears to be total self-promotion. It may be speedy-deletable as such, but it at least makes a claim to notability. Aleta 21:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The PrintOwners List (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a message board for printers. Ignoring the promotional tone and the weasel words there I can see no notability and it thus fails WP:WEB. Google produces 17 hits, none of any note and Google news produces nothing at all. Nancy 21:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


  • Keep Thanks for your comments. We've reposted an edited version that eliminates the non-neutral language and the weasel words. I'm not sure how to respond to the criticism that the topic lacks notability except to say that counting Google hits is not necessarily the best way of determining this. Because the PrintOwners List is specialized, it is known to and used by a relatively small group of people--the print shop owners for which it was created. However, for more than 10 years, these users have continued to regard it as a valuable professional resource. Hence our conclusion that the PrintOwners List should be represented in Knowledge. I do hope that you will reconsider your recommendation to delete it. User:Yourcorrespondent
Knowledge has a very clearly defined notion of notability which requires the website to have been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. I accept that google is not the be-all and end-all but it often gives a good indication, particularly when looking at subjects which post-date the internet but if you can supply some reliable sources to demonstrate the WP:WEB notability of the site then that would be really helpful and will greatly improve the article's chance of survival. Nancy 08:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:WEB and also per the post above, the owner seems to regard a wikipedia article as free advertising/publicity. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - No reliable sources provided to establish notability, nor were any found when searching myself. Google may not be arbiter of notability but one would expect that there would be sources found via google when the subject is an online discussion group. -- Whpq (talk) 22:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Would testimony from participants in the PrintOwners List be acceptable as evidence of notability? User:Yourcorrespondent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.49.222 (talk) 16:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Reply - testimony wouldn't do it. Please read the guidelines and policy for notability and reliable sources for more information. -- Whpq (talk) 22:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. MBisanz 05:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Ciel (Tsukihime) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article has not improved at all since the previous AfD, failing WP:V and WP:N still, while also containing a dash of WP:OR. An entry for the character already exists on the related subject matter's character list, and salvageable material from the article can readily be worked into it. Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related page for the very same reasons:

Michael Roa Valdamjong (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletions. Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect If the character already exists at the related character list, I think redirecting is the best option. It allows people to salvage material from this article if they decide to merge (with reliable sources) after all. - Mgm| 22:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Ciel at least is a major figure in the story--possibly this applies to MRJ as well. The clearest way of resenting fiction is to do substantial discussions of the major characters. It can be seen as an supplementary way of presenting the plot, or, sometimes, the principal way. I do not consider the GNG relevant--the purpose of Knowledge is to have understandable documented content about important things. The material here is presumably documented by the original source, and if there is interpretation, there is probably criticism, at least in Japanese, to provide it--though it may come from other than our customary RS routine. As for the redirect--it would make sense to do this, but essentially the full content of the article is needed The rationale for separate articles as a matter of routine of major characters is that it would otherwise overbalance the article and impair readability. The GNG is a tool to be used when appropriate--it does many things well, but it does not work very well with fiction--as has been abundantly proven by several hundred afds. A guideline we cannot agree on how to apply is useless.DGG (talk) 22:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Main character != necessary for inclusion or understanding of the plot or allowing you to ignore the GNG. If anything, the recent RfC came out fairly strongly against spinouts that are not lists (in other words, stuff that has community consensus to stay, such as episode or character lists), and honestly, that's all that is necessary to understand the plot here. Trying to say that the GNG is irrelevant to fiction given the rather large evidence to the contrary doesn't work. In any case, see User talk:Kung Fu Man#Fate/stay night, Tsukihime characters. Neither asserts any notability. — sephiroth bcr 06:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Do you have sources for the character itself? That was mentioned in the last AfD but no sources were even added.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 06:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge both – to List of Tsukihime characters. No adequate assertion of notability for either. See User talk:Kung Fu Man#Fate/stay night, Tsukihime characters. — sephiroth bcr 06:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep although I can live with merge, and acknowledge that a merge better reflects our current policy. I freely admit the lack of reliable sources in English about this character, but have a problem with ignoring the obvious indicia of notability -this is a major character in a multi-media franchise that is sufficiently popular (and presumably lucrative) to have been translated from its original language, and is voiced by a character actor sufficiently notable to have a Knowledge article. It appears this character is even sufficiently popular/recognizable to have been parodied by another character in another ficitional piece. Again, I acknowledge the bright line of missing sourcing, and whether it's due to the language barrier or whatever, it is real; however, it simply feels like in this case our guideline is too exclusionary. Xymmax So let it be done 11:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Let me clarify that my "keep" comments refer to Ciel only. The villain, while important to the story, is appropriate for merger. Xymmax So let it be done
By your own citation, "Articles that are overwhelmed with speculation, or that have excessively long biographies are often deleted." Being a main character does not guarantee notability, as notability isn't inherited.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Being of "importance to the overall subject" and "spanning multiple works (a television series, or a movie or video game franchise)", let alone different media, certainly indicate notability and fit my citation. "Excessively long biography" is subjective. As for speculation, well, tag the incriminated parts. And again, I see the loss but what is the gain in deleting this article? Laurent paris (talk) 23:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
The issue is that the target article is solely a biography and not an encyclopedic treatment on the character. In addition it fails general notability in that there are no citations for third party reception of any sort for this character, plus a lack of development info. It's been tagged since the last nomination without improvement. Like it or not, simply being a "major character" in a title does not entitle them to have an article on Knowledge. The information can be merged and restored easily if information turns up at a later time.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Except this is a nomination for deletion and who will remember where to find the lost informations? And it's a major character in several titles. Again, I see the loss but what is the gain in deleting the article, as opposed to leaving it alone until someone improves it? Laurent paris (talk) 23:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Because it's the same issue as the Soulcalibur articles (yes I read your discussion there): nobody is working on or improving this article or others. The last edit to Ciel's was Dec 2 by...oh yes, me. Go figure. I'm not disagreeing with you that Ciel or other merged characters aren't important or not, but this article is not a treatment of the subject, and there hasn't been any effort to find third party material for it in (again) the year since the last nomination. If you want to help keep the article, can I suggest rather than arguing with me using the article's talk page and posting links to articles or items in reliable sources that give the character notability. If you can find sources then do so.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I'm not the one spending hours a day actively trying to destroy other people's work. I don't contribute to these articles because i'm not familiar with the subject but it's typically the kind of "non notable" data I enjoyed finding in WP. Inaccuracies were quickly edited by the fans and sources were provided when there was controversy. This is how WP works. Vandalism and forced PoV cause enough damage as it is. We don't need notability zealots deleting articles. I notice you've read my posts but never answered my question: what do you gain in deleting lacking articles? Is it better to have nothing rather than something incomplete? Laurent paris (talk) 01:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me, but you apparently prefer contributing to the problem instead of fixing it. Simply voting "keep" on a subject without attempting to fix it does nothing: all that will happen is that if left unfixed it will be nominated again or merged. This is not what "WP is". It's not a fansite. It's not a mass collective to have articles on every subject. What's gained is two fold: articles don't grow stagnant and can be reduced to the material that will inform more than a small fanbase, and newcomers do not readily assume such material is the "standard". Compare this article to featured video game character articles, and tell me which sounds more encyclopedic.
This isn't destruction, it's cleanup. It happens. Please actually bother reading policies before you lecture on what "WP is".--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Unless it is replaced by something else, it is destruction. Deleting doesn't fix anything. Stagnant articles are better than no article. No-article doesn't "inform more than a small fanbase", it doesn't inform anyone. Newcomers looking for "non notable" subjects will find just that. Those not looking for them won't. I don't see a problem here. I know the policies, sadly. You and others like TTN just make the worst possible use and interpretation of them. As for featured articles, this is precisely what all the categories, fancy stars and tags are for: articles have different quality. So what, you want all subpar articles deleted? Laurent paris (talk) 02:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was merge to List of Fate/stay night characters. I will place afdmergeto templates on all of these articles. Knowing this type of close, though, I will revisit them in a few weeks and redirect those that haven't been merged. Black Kite 10:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Gilgamesh (Fate/stay night) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Another large AfD, however again all the related articles share the very same issues. All of the nominated articles fail WP:V and WP:N, and have for a very long term. Upon research, sources have only turned up for a few of the characters alone, and they are excluded from this nomination. Salvageable information can be combined into a list, however given the number of merge targets any such proposal is best handled here than via singular articles. Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I am also nominating the following related pages as noted above:

Kishua Zelretch Schweinorg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Waver Velvet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Ryūnosuke Uryū (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Tokiomi Tōsaka (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Aoi Tōsaka (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sola-Ui Nuada-Re Sophia-Ri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Caren Ortensia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bazett Fraga McRemitz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Zōken Matō (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Shinji Matō (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sakura Matō (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Kariya Matō (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Sōichirō Kuzuki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Risei Kotomine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Kirei Kotomine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Maiya Hisau (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Taiga Fujimura (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Kiritsugu Emiya (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Kayneth Archibald El-Melloi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Irisviel von Einzbern (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Illyasviel von Einzbern (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

  • question please explain your nomination a little further--are any of these principal characters? If so, those ones should be nominated separately, since there is a considerable feeling which in many cases has reached consensus that principal characters are appropriate for article whether or not they meet the current formal requirements. The merge would in any case not best be handled here--if they are in the same work or group of works a common target could be found, or a centralized discussion organized. DGG (talk) 20:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. -WP:N None of the characters you listed have any evidence of significant coverage in independent sources, thus they are not notable, as you claim. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge all: I'm persuaded by that perhaps there's a way to salvage this content, although most of these articles are clearly non-notable for a lack of reliable third-party sources. A few are borderline, which can only be determined with more effort and searching. May as well merge. No prejudice against further action based on new evidence, be that a split back out into multiple articles, or outright deletion. Randomran (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Gilgamesh, the primary antagonist of the series. Merge the rest into List of Fate/stay night characters. Edward321 (talk) 14:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
The fact that he is the primary antagonist has no bearing on whether he qualifies for a stand-alone article. The only relevant policy is WP:N, which this character fails. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 18:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge all: Like what everyone said, there's not really a whole lot of verifiability and notability in the articles, but moreover they are all in-universe content, lacking the more important sections such as development and reception (most visual novel characters, primary or secondary, doesn't have much reception). -- クラウド６６８ 17:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect It's a big job, and as said above there may not be a great deal from the articles that should remain. But there's most likely something salvageable in there. Icemotoboy (talk) 22:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge all. Ok, having watched the series, most of the listed ones are secondary characters, so they don't need separate articles. The only "main" characters are Illya and maybe Sakura, but their article lack independent reliable sources, so there's really nothing to do but to merge them as well, at least for the time being. Just coz Gilgamesh is the main antagonist doesn't warrant a separate article. -- Highwind8, the Fuko Master 01:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep There's no harm in keeping separate articles. Notability is very subjective and verifiability really matters when there is a contoversy. But if you merge so many articles into a single one, the resulting list will be way too long and a pain to read or it will lack the kind of information that make Knowledge a useful and comprehensive resource in the first place. Some users should ponder what is to be gained before blindly applying wp policies. Just tag these as "unreferenced" and spend more time actually improving articles. Laurent paris (talk) 22:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 05:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Steve Dillard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not satisfy notability guidelines for people: no citations to reliable sources to support article's content; article's subject stopped maintaining blog in 2006. Tone of article lacks a neutral point of view, and appears to promote the article's subject, raising a question of conflict of interest. Thanks. Walshga (talk) 22:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Does not satisfy notability guidelines for people: no citations to reliable sources to support article's content
  • That could be a good reason, but you gave no indication you tried looking for any, and you didn't do an evaluation of the sources already in the article.
  • article's subject stopped maintaining blog in 2006.
  • Notability is not temporary. If he was notable in 2006 or before, he still is now.
  • Tone of article lacks a neutral point of view,
  • That can be resolved through editing and isn't a valid reason for deletion.
  • and appears to promote the article's subject, raising a question of conflict of interest.
  • As long as the article can be rewritten in a neutral tone, conflict of interest doesn't have to be a problem. It shows the intend of the contributor, but the article should be considered on its own merits, separate from the editor. Also, if the guy stopped writing his blog, what does he need self-promotion for? - Mgm| 00:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Point well taken, MGM. I should have been more specific with my nomination. I really did review the article and research the article's subject before making the deletion nomination. The "External links" section of the article links to two sources that meet the reliability criteria: a 2005 NPR interview and brief mention in a 2007 New York Observer article. But besides these sources, additional research revealed only occasional mention of the article's subject on blog postings - which are considered "not acceptable" as self-published sources. Similarly, some of the article's information comes from its subject's law firm web profile - another self-published source. So, based on the lack of reliable sources to support the article's content, I decided to put it to the Knowledge community to consider deletion. As for my other statements about 2006, neutral tone, and conflict of interest - you are right! I agree completely with your remarks and retract those statements as reasons for the article's deletion. Thanks! Walshga (talk) 01:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
This site is merely quoting one of the others, and the others are brief mentions without too much significant discussion of the individual himself or biographical info, and also not the greatest sources. Cirt (talk) 06:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I have just posted to the talk page of User:Sladillard informing him that this discussion is (again) taking place, and giving him the email to contact OTRS. At least for me, the subject lies in that area of marginal notability in which I am willing to consider the subject's wishes, provided they are expressed in a form that gives us a reasonable assurance of veracity. Waiting to see if any response materializes. Xymmax So let it be done 11:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for doing that. Cirt (talk) 14:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys. I hope that this is the appropriate place for me to respond to your inquiry. To begin with, I don't object to the bio staying up. That having been said, I don't consider myself all that notable. There are times when I have been a blip on the national political scene (e.g., Hardball and NPR appearances), and it is true that I am one of the more established conservative bloggers, but whether or not my background passes Knowledge's notability guidelines is an issue above my paygrade.

That having been said, there are numerous news articles floating around the web that verify a good bit of the information contained in my bio, and I would be more than happy to pass those links along to y'all if you like. I can be contacted directly at sladillard@gmail.com

And once again, if y'all decide to delete the bio, you won't hurt my feelings at all. It is a bit of a pain to have to check it every so often to make sure that the information contained therein is accurate, but I am, of course, flattered that someone took the time out to create the bio in the first place.

Oh, and one minor nit to pick. While it is true that I did shut down Southern Appeal in December of 2006, I restarted the blog in March of 2008. I am not sure whether that matters, but I did want to mention it.

In any event, if I can be of assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Steve Dillard —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sladillard (talk • contribs)

Thank you Steve. We appreciate your assistance in providing sources. If you could add some links to such sources in your bio's talk page (Talk:Steve Dillard), that would be very helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Keep and thanks to Mr. Dillard for responding here. You've addressed my primary concern. I also agree that the sources Jossi cites establish notability - perhaps stronger in the past, but of course notability doesn't expire. Xymmax So let it be done 23:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep!, the article is now revised and includes the aforementioned reliable, third party sources. I incorporated most of the source citations inline to support the article's content. I started the deletion discussion, but now see the article's subject establishes notability. So I retract my original reasons for deletion, and vote to keep the article. I would urge others who voted delete to look again at the newly revised article. Thanks! Walshga (talk) 08:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I still don't see any coverage of the subject himself. What is the basis of his notability? ChildofMidnight (talk) 08:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Whitelining (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No assertion of notability and no references provided to verify the article's contents. It seems to me that 'whitelining' is as likely or more likely to refer to the process of painting white lines on roads than the act of cycling on a white line. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Here are a couple of links using the term: , . I'm not saying that it is really a standard term, but appears to be a prevalent slang related with lane splitting used in biker community. Sleaves talk 05:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Black Kite 10:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Aerodynamik/La Forme Remixes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Delete - Article is regarding a remix single recorded by Kraftwerk and British band Hot Chip consisting of 2 songs. Speedy declined stating that Kraftwerk is notable... however I feel that this fails WP:NALBUMS and in itself not notable Pmedema (talk) 19:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Goddammit I Love America! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable demo, per WP:MUSIC. Previously deleted via prod. Present article is a contested prod. Related article for the demo Bowel of Chiley (mentioned on talk) was previously deleted via an AfD, recently speedied as a repost. SummerPhD (talk) 19:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC) Edit to add: Currently the related article (on a similar demo) OU818 is still waiting out a prod. Would someone uninvolved (or the author) please review the talk page on this (GILA) article to see if they feel it is contesting the prod on that (OU818) article and, if appropriate, remove the prod? Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Hawk Mountain Camp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The notability of the camp is in question.

That is why Ed used the term "!vote" (i.e. not a vote) which is generally used to refer to what you say. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Obscure content isn't harmful
Knowledge is not paper and (practically) has no size limits, and so should include "everything" that fits within its other criteria. There is room for articles on any and every verifiable subject. There is no harm in including an obscure topic, because if it is truly non-notable, people simply won't search for it or link to it. It will not create a significant server load as such.
I encourage editors to embrace a spirit of inclusiveness that Knowledge otherwise and elsewhere embodies. Jheiv (talk) 19:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
My reason for supporting deletion is not because it is obscure. The reason is because the article indicates nothing about the site that is notable. This article consists of basically a description of the site, and a description of what it is used for. Nothing notable happens there, or has happened there, and the fact that it is a real place does not mean it is notable. If some evidence of notability can be provided, I would happily change my vote to keep, but as it is, the fact that obscure content isn't harmful is not a reason to keep non-notable content. Since this does not fit within the other criteria of wikipedia, namely the notability criteria, there is no reason to keep this article. Theseeker4 (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what is unclear by the guideline I just quoted. The article seems to be verifiable (although I admit it could use some more references, but that's what the fact tag is for, not AfD.) If it is, in fact, not notable in your opinion, what is the harm in keeping the page? As long as all the claims in the article are verifiable then this addition to Knowledge should be left. Further, given the Knowledge:Notability_(Geographic_locations) proposed guidelines, I'm not sure someone can honestly say that this article should not be included in Knowledge.Jheiv (talk) 20:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I am not convinced that Knowledge:Notability_(Geographic_locations) even applies here. That proposed guideline was intended to deal with the question of whether every village or hamlet should have an article. It was never intended to deal with Scout camps. If it does allow Scout camps, then it would allow articles on all individual houses. This is a proposed guideline and if the folks working on it hear about the suggestion to apply it here to a Scout camp, I suspect they would change the wording to exclude them and make it clear it is about places with a population. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Response to Jheiv What you are saying is not at all unclear. However, I disagree with your assertion that anything that is verifiable should be kept. The guideline you quoted is basically saying err on the side of "it is obscure but notable" if there is a question. In this case, there is no question, there is nothing about this location that asserts notability. Regarding Knowledge:Notability_(Geographic_locations), first it is a series of three distinct proposals, contradictory to one another, none of which are even at the level of consensus, let alone policy. Number three does not apply here since there is no permanent population; it is a camp, not a town. Number one is so broad, and has so many arguments against it in the discussion page of the proposals that I reject it (yes, my opinion, but I am discussing why I don't think this article should be here). A scout camp needs some assertion of notability; the fact that we can verify that it exists is not enough. If that were the case, and notability really doesn't matter at all as to whether to keep or delete articles (which is contrary to consensus as well as pages and pages of Knowledge guidelines) then we need to un-delete the thousands of non-notable bands and singers, etc. that have been deleted based on the notability criteria. Theseeker4 (talk) 13:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. I gave my opinion at Oreland Boy Scout Troop 1, and will not repeat it here. It is unfortunate that this AfD has been started separately as the camp and troop are closely related. In my view neither are notable, but if minimal notability is demonstrated this camp article should be merged into the troop article. Before merging much of it should be removed as advertising and other non-important material. As Ed said on the Troop AfD discussion, the place for these articles in ScoutWiki which actually encourages articles on Troops and camps. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete In the absence of something remarkable and soundly sourced, a camp for an individual troop is not possibly notable. The problem of how to deal with content of such limited interest is a real one, and is probably best solved by auxiliary wiki of some sort. (I can see it done by having different levels in Knowledge, but not at our present state of development--we have enough problem dealing with one set of standards.)DGG (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
An older version of this article was copied over to ScoutWiki; if the decision is to delete, I will copy the newer version over. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 00:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Already did that. I don't want you befouling my article anymore than you already have.Jmpenzone (talk) 00:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
It is not your article. See WP:OWN. You are not understanding how wikipedia works. --Bduke (Discussion) 09:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Impressingroom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable web site. Fails WP:RS and WP:WEB Ecoleetage (talk) 18:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. Black Kite 16:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Brazilian footballers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Overlisting - information is already present in Category:Brazilian footballers. GiantSnowman 17:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reason:
List of Danish footballers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - already present in Category:Danish footballers
List of Taiwanese footballers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - already present in Category:Taiwanese footballers

GiantSnowman 17:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Over a hundred or more years, there must have been tens of thousands of Brazilian professional footballers. Even a list of Brazlian INTERNATIONAL footballers would presumably be well into 4 figures. - fchd (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep all - discriminate, organised and contains information additional to that in a category. Significantly more information could be added but meanwhile the red links are helpful. TerriersFan (talk) 21:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - what additional information? - the Brazilian list has DOB, the Danish has a few (and only a very few) playing positions, and the Taiwanese list has nothing other than the Chinese language names - in my eyes this is not really "information additional to that in a category". GiantSnowman 22:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete all. All the notable Brazilian footballers are in the category (more than 2,000 footballers). Category it's easier to be updated than a list. This is not even a list of players that joined the national squad. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete all much better handled through categorization. JBsupreme (talk) 06:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep all - has the nom checked that all in the list are also in the category, and has the nom noticed that many of those in the category are in subcategories and thus not visible at the top level? Lists and categories are complementary (neither is ever complete) - the list could be upgraded to give position, no of games played, goals scored etc. Occuli (talk) 08:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete all Totally unnecessary and unmaintainable given that we have a category. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
That's obviously untrue, since a category can do none of the things Occuli just mentioned. - Mgm| 10:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I think the problem is that the list is currently inferior to the category and making it superior by adding tables etc seems unmanageable when there would need to be over 10,000 entries in the list. Jogurney (talk) 14:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • KEEP but redefine as _List of Brazil international footballers_ Given that List of Germany international footballers has just become a featured list, such a list is justifiable. Simply a list of Brazilian footballers without restricting criteria is likely to be unmanageably huge and better handled by category - all but impossible to supply number of games and goals for all those players for all they've played due to lack of sourcing, particularly for players from long ago. List should be restricted to International players which can then easier be expanded with additional info (international goals, games etc) per Germany one. As far as a list of Brazilian player being kept over category simply because it has dates, you can search category Brazil football player and category xxxx births simultaneously. ditto comments for other 2 candidates--ClubOranje 18:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I see this list just as another category just with year of birth attached. This is little difference other than the fact the category is by far more complete. So I vote to delete this list and the others. Govvy (talk) 20:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 21:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 21:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. John254 00:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

List of Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland churches (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

List of churches, none of which appear to satisfy WP:CHURCH. Fails WP:NOTDIR. Contested prod. —BradV 17:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton 02:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I-59 South (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article is borderline for me. I'm always a little bit skeptical about movies that are allegedly in "pre-production" especially when they are packed full of non-notable names. As it stands right now, I feel that it fails WP:FILM dramatically in all respects except for the possible involvement of Olivia de Havilland. Being that it is her first film in 30 years, I would find that as an acceptable grounds for notability were it sourcable. Unfortunately, her presence in the movie fails to have multiple, non-trivial sources. The best sources I have been able to find consist of IMDB (not considered a reliable source), a blog, and a message board entry. As it stands, I'm suggesting that this article be deleted with no prejudice against recreation should it prove notable in the future. Trusilver 17:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to UPLB Campus. MBisanz 05:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Makiling Residence Hall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Nothing notable about a university residence. roux  17:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Cost per Day (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Promotes adSemble and in turn nMotion technologies. Author mentioned find their approach mathematical, analytical and scientific as a contest against the Pro-D earlier, but does not give any source for coming to that conclusion nor does the article have any relation to this statement. Article mentions powered by their proprietary "procession algorithm" and no details are given. So it is only promoting the company and product giving such uncited and likely copyrighted items (since it says proprietary). The provided links are also promotions only and are not encyclopaedic references.

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The result was Speedy keep. Afd is not for suggesting article improvement. Such discussion should take place on Talk:ScrewAttack, with a cross-post to Knowledge talk:WikiProject Video games if you feel it needs wider attention. Garrett 20:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

ScrewAttack (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article has been neglected to be formatted in a Knowledge-appropriate style. Article is too long and does not follow the correct format. You can use the IGN, GameTrailers, or GameSpot articles as examples as to how this article should be changed. Doshindude (talk) 16:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 05:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

AnimeSuki (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unnotable fansub distribution website that fails WP:WEB and WP:N. It has been tagged for notability since March with change. It has not been changed since the last AfD which ended in no consensus, despite a clean up tag being added since then (June). It does not have significant coverage in multiple third-party reliable sources. The few sources in the article (and mentioned in the last AfD), only not it as one of MANY fansub sites that have been hit with C&D letters from various companies, pointing to the notability (and notariety) of fansubs and is already covered in fansub. The Fortune magazine mention from the last AfD is not significant, it is a single sentence. Again, this is not a notable website. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment: As noted in the previous AfD, ANN repeatedly covers the site in its news reporting, and they're pretty darn close to being the paper of record for this industry. And while the Fortune mention is only in passing, that passing is to call it "the largest database of BitTorrent anime shows," which is a statement that the site's notable from well outside the industry. Without looking for further mentions, just the information on hand strongly suggests notability. As for the lack of changes, well, WP:NOEFFORT. For the moment, no !vote pending searches for further mentions. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Popularity doesn't have anything to do with it. And, FYI, MyAnimeList was deleted via AfD already; someone recreated it without reason. CSDed. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 01:49, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Most likely MAL themselves. I don't know the reason for deletion, but I know they once stated on their homepage that they created the article. I also agree that MAL is by no means a notable site, and I'm a happy user of their service. Dandy Sephy (talk) 03:43, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Be my guest, since the creator of this one is the same one whose created it before along with the other deleted MAL stuff. Exact same article even. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 04:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Then why do you use said argument? MuZemike (talk) 02:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Instead of arguing points here, I'm going to list a group of potential sources and let others decide if they constitute significant coverage.
I am also registering a hit on Robin E. Brenner (2007). Understanding Manga and Anime. Libraries Unlimited. ISBN 9781591583325. --Farix (Talk) 01:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Most of those ANN reports, however, are about BitTorrenting in general, not solely about Anime Suki. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 01:49, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
But they always mention AnimeSuki in their coverage, meaning that the website is of note. --Farix (Talk) 01:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment: An Amazon search also reveals that AnimeSuki is mentioned in the book A Dictionary of Proverbs.--24.129.100.84 (talk) 02:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
But they do show constant coverage of the site. And some are exclusively about the site, not just BitTorrenting in general. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  16:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
A SINGLE source with a ONE LINE mention does NOT equal significant coverage nor does it equal notability and considering that report is from 2005, there is no telling if it is even accurate anymore. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
. Even if this site _was once_ the largest such site, as long as this is verifiable then it is notable. JulesH (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. John254 00:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Nick Naitanui (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article is problematic from a WP:Crystal perspective and subject appears to fail WP:Athlete as he has not competed at the fully professional level of this sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport. If (when) subject reaches standards required recreation will be suitable however to simply put these names directly into mainspace at this time is inappropriate. --VS 16:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. MBisanz 05:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Michael Walters (Australian footballer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Previously prodded and then de-prodded by enthusiastic fan of AFL. However as for many similar articles being created this article is also problematic from a WP:Crystal perspective and it appears to fail WP:Athlete as subject has not competed at the fully professional level of this sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport. If (when) subject reaches standards required recreation will be suitable however to simply put these names directly into mainspace at this time is inappropriate. --VS 16:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Icewedge (talk) 06:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Erettopterus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced, Unreferenced, and hasn't been touched since June 30. HairyPerry 15:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. and SALTED Mgm| 18:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Posera (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
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The result was keep. John254 00:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Electronic grade book (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article refers to a product only, no references provided and article is orphaned. Lympathy 15:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep - At first glance, I was checked on the delete side of the book. However, after a few minutes of poking around on Google I found a term that is gaining in Notarity. It turns out there are quite a few news articles concerning the concept, as noted here . Likewise, I was surprised to find the amount of scholarly articles listed on Google Scholar dealing with the concept as shown here ]. Finally, I did a quick Google search on products and was rewarded with quite a few, as shown here, . Based on this information, I had to go with keep. I believe we have a concept that is encyclopedic with a nominal rewrite and a few sources added. Anyone willing to help? ShoesssS 16:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Grade F for failing WP:BEFORE. See talk page for numerous sources. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- even with the search it still appears to me to be products that aren't encyclopedic but I'm happy for it to be kept and worked on but it sure could use a lot of work as to me it still seems to have no content. Lympathy 09:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Please see our editing policy. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Delete --JForget 00:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Connal Kelleher (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This appears to be a vanity article for a non-notable British wrestler. A Google search turns up nothing to support the statements in the article - perhaps our friends who have expertise in British wrestling can confirm if this is a hoax. Ecoleetage (talk) 13:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes i am 16 but as you can see im not professional so i would appreciate it if you took this back — Preceding unsigned comment added by Connal Kelleher (talk • contribs)


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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Southern Pines, Columbus Ohio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable place; Google doesn't really have much. It's a housing development with no assertion of why it should be included. roux  13:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete Although Knowledge welcomes articles about all incorporated municipalities, as well as a lot of unincorporated communities that might appear on a state-level or provincial-level map, neighborhoods and subdivisions inside a city are not considered inherently notable. In looking at a Google map of Columbus, it does not appear that this is more noteworthy than any other area inside the I-270 circle. Mandsford (talk) 14:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I can't even find it on my detailed map: the streets are there, but the name isn't. If it isn't listed on a detailed map, I doubt that it could be notable at all, as the only neighborhoods that are notable are those with well-defined boundaries or those with significant coverage, which this doesn't have. Nyttend (talk) 14:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Yep, I can't find it on Google Maps, Microsoft Streets and Trips, or on my GPS. Google doesn't have anything notable to say about it either. Trusilver 17:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. —Raven1977 (talk) 21:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Nothing notable about this neighborhood. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 05:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Wanted: Wade (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

If I read List of Garfield and Friends episodes right, then this article is about 1/3 of a thirty-minute episode (i.e. ignoring 10 mins of advertisement, this article is about 7 minutes of plot). Google News/Books/Scholar brings up basically nothing. I have serious doubts of WP:NOTABILITY (although this is episode is even part of the pilot), and this article consists of nothing but plot (WP:NOT#PLOT) and unsourced WP:TRIVIA. I would have bold-redirected, but I think I need a CYA here. I am fine with deletion, redirection and merging (although I won't volunteer for trimming&merging because it's easier for fans to come up with a shorter new ep summary than for me to trim down to a one-liner), and I intend to take bold action for the remaining Garfield and U.S. Acres ep articles depending on the result of this AfD. – sgeureka 12:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to United States presidential election, 2012. MBisanz 05:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Democratic Party (United States) presidential primaries, 2012 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fail wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Virtually no content, worthless article David (contribs) 19:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if Obama is unopposed in 2012, there will still be primaries. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 20:49, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment. Be that as it may, it's still too early to make such supposition that Obama and Biden will be involved, or any of the other people whose names have been added since the AFD began. The key is: remove all supposition from the article, and leave behind only verified, sourced fact, and if there's anything left, then the article might be viable. As it stands, all that's left is the title and one line saying there will be primaries in 2012. That's not enough for a viable article at this stage. 23skidoo (talk) 14:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep as usual in American politics, people start writing about the next election at least as soon as the first one is over. Even though it would be uncontested short of a personal or political catastrophe, people speculate about those things also. As for CRYSTAL,"Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place" -- what would it take for it not to happen? Collision with a comet, an invasion from UFOs, a Fascist revolution. Not much else. DGG (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
  • WP:CRYSTAL also says that even certain-to-happen future events need verifiable information to say about them. Until somebody makes a concrete action, this is 100% speculation. • Gene93k (talk) 02:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, a check on some WP articles shows that essentially every presidential primary season even when there have been extremely popular incumbents have been contested. . It seems perfectly acceptable to set up the framework, and add information as it comes. I do not see what harm it is to an encyclopedia to say there will be content, and here's where it will be. DGG (talk) 05:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Incumbency and the significance of the race are secondary issues. We have historical facts for 2004. We have speculation for 2012, and Knowledge policies about speculation are clear. • Gene93k (talk) 18:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mgm| 12:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Delete This is the "first kid on the block" syndrome at work, where someone with nothing to say reserves a place in line for an article. This is particularly obnoxious when it comes to gazing into the crystal ball, with an editor confidentally proclaiming things like "If Obama is for some reason unable to run in 2012 the probable nominee will be Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton". Tell me who's going to win the Super Bowl in February, and by how much. I'm not a palm reader, but something tells me that the life line on this one is pretty short. Mandsford (talk) 14:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect It's certainly a valid topic for an article, and in a few years we'll need to have this article, so no need to delete. However, aside from the obvious statement about Obama, everything is speculation, so the title should be redirected to the presidential election article. Nyttend (talk) 14:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Once we get any sources in it, this is a definite Keep per WP:CRYSTAL. Speculation is not prohibited by it, only unsourced, original research speculation. WP:CRYSTAL gives the 2010 U.S. Senate elections as an example of what is appropriate. The next US presidential primaries are very, very similar to the next US senatorial election. As long as there are RS's speculating, we can write a verified article on it. The article needs sources, quick googling suggests there are some out there, e.g. plans for when a state's primaries will be. Some are outdated by Obama's election though (speculating on Clinton's or Obama's 2012 strategy if a Republican won in 2008). Of course the "first kid on the block" should have included one source, and annoyance is understandable.John Z (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • The problem with a "once we get sources" keep rationale is that sources aren't available yet. Until we get sources this is 100% crystal ball gazing, and this article is only getting worse. This article should not exist yet, and keeping it in anticipation of reliable sources emerging turns WP:CRYSTAL on its head. • Gene93k (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I would add that the article would certainly be re-created when there is information about such things as the scheduled dates for a primary election. However, as the authors of Super Tuesday and New Hampshire primary have recognized, we don't even have information about when those events will take place. Frankly, we need to slap down this type of "me first" approach to writing, as well as the "I'm an expert" conceit that goes with it. This is an online encyclopedia, and nothingburger articles don't add to Knowledge's reputation. When an article about the 2012 primary is written, and it will be, we'll expect the same encyclopedic content style as other political articles on Knowledge. Mandsford (talk) 16:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
That's not what I meant by "once we get sources into the article." I meant that there are sources out there now - I saw something on the West Virginia primary date, etc, that could be added to the article now. No time to do it at the moment.John Z (talk) 23:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Lets try not to be stupid. There is nothing encyclopedic about speculation, which is the only thing that would be possible concerning an election that is two presidents down the road. (lets not forget that the one that has been elected isn't even in office yet.) Trusilver 17:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I agree entirely with Trusilver: there is no possibility of nonspeculative content in such an article. Mangoe (talk) 17:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete unless somebody finds something veriable to say about the subject. The article currently says, essentially, nothing, and history revisions that have said something have all been unsourced speculation. JulesH (talk) 20:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment one of the page's authors has responded to the deletion debate on the article's talk page. JulesH (talk) 20:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete This is speculation, unless multiple reliable sources are found commenting on something notable. As is, and since 2009 does not even exist yet, this is non-notable speculation. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I tried editing it to a useful standard, but it's impossible. I created the 2012 Republican primary page because there is a shitload of media interest which works for article frame-work for the future. The Republican and Democratic article are incomparable because there is a lot of information on the Republican Convention Bids and Primary schedules as well as potential candidates. If we wanted to keep the Democratic primary page, it would have to focus more on COnvention hosts and biding process rather than candidates. The problem? Convention bidding doesn't even start until November, 2009, and doesn't get serious until early to mid 2010. There is nothing this article could be used for except to reserve it for the future. Bigvinu (talk) 21:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 05:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Scottish Nursery Nurses Strike (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Strikes happen all the time around the world, and most of them are news events without any lasting importance. It's unclear why this particular one is notable enough to warrant an encyclopedia article. B. Wolterding (talk) 17:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, "Knowledge is not the news" and "Notability does not expire" apply to events whether they happened yesterday, five years ago, or 100 years ago. If it was notable then, it would be notable now; if it wasn't notable then, it wouldn't be notable now. I'm not convinced that it was notable then or now. Mandsford (talk) 03:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mgm| 12:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: I have relisted this debate so the latest book reference can be taken into consideration. - Mgm| 12:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Per Phil and DGG, there are plenty of RS's, as one would expect, including substantial coverage in several books. A weeks-long national strike will almost always have much more than enough coverage to be notable by wikipedia's guidelines. Searching on scottish strike "nursery nurses" gets 178 gnews hits, almost all of them good, and continuing after the strike. The same search gets some more gscholar hits. This book in the 47 gbooks hits explains that "The choice of an image from the 2004 Scotland-wide nursery nurses strike for the front cover of this volume was no accident ...."John Z (talk) 13:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep based on the sources found by other editors. Edward321 (talk) 21:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Sonnet 151 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Knowledge articles are not mere copies of source texts, and this is all that this is and all that it has ever been. There is no actual encyclopaedia article content anywhere in the history. This is better as a redlink, inviting editors to come and write an actual encyclopaedia article here. Note that Wikisource has had this source text nearly two years longer than this article has existed, so there is no excuse for keeping this source text around for transwikification (nor, indeed, any excuse for adding this raw source text to Knowledge in the first place). Uncle G (talk) 11:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Shakespeare's sonnets. Why ever would we want to delete this altogether? While the current article doesn't pass our standards for being an article — and the same with 152 — it's clearly a valid article topic, and (as we can see with 153) can be expanded into a decent article. To remove the link altogether would be potentially confusing and wouldn't at all help a reader. Nyttend (talk) 14:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • To remove the page would leave a redlink inviting editors to create an actual article. Nobody said that it wasn't a valid topic. But what we have here isn't an article. It's empty. It has zero article content, and never had content at any point in its history. Better a redlink, inviting creation of an article where we are currently missing one, than a bluelink, be it a redirect or this content-free page. Uncle G (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
      • The problem with that is that this article used to be a redlink for the very same reason you want it to be, and this is what editors have decided to make it so far. Wrad (talk) 17:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
        • And criterion for speedy deletion #A3 is there for ensuring that we don't recolour redlinks with empty articles. We're only here at AFD in the first place because deletion of an empty article was challenged. Uncle G (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
          • I don't see how that supports an argument against a redirect. You are just going to restart the cycle all over again and it won't do any good as a redlink. Wrad (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
            • It won't start any "cycle" at all. There hasn't been a cycle here. There has simply been creation of an empty article to recolour a redlink. The rationale that underpins speedy deletion criterion #A3 is that we don't keep them, because all that they do is prevent people from seeing where articles haven't been written yet. And no article has been written here, yet. Uncle G (talk) 17:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Your argument is that a redlink is preferable to a stub, which is not a valid reason for a delete. The criterion is notability, and Shakespeare's sonnets are ipso facto notable; and as the other sonnet articles show, sonnet stubs can and do get expanded. --Xover (talk) 15:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect if I understand the logic of this nomination correctly, a redlink is preferable to a redirect because it invites people to make an actual encyclopedia article. But you'd think there would be one by now and if there is a chance at an encyclopedia article, this would at the very least be a foundation to build upon, and an editor can find it by going through the history. I do not think deletion is a suitable answer here. JuJube (talk) 16:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • The reason that there isn't is very likely that no-one has noticed that this article is empty. A redlink at Template:Shakespearesonnets flags that. A bluelink does not. What has happened here is that someone has tried to turn the link blue by adding a navigation template, some source text, and no encyclopaedia article content. That really isn't the way to recolour redlinks. Uncle G (talk) 17:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
      • Again, as I said above, the problem with that is that this article used to be a redlink for the very same reason you want it to be, and this is what editors have decided to make it so far. Wrad (talk) 17:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
        • Editors also decide to fill articles with random text. We don't keep those bluelinked for the same reason that we don't keep empty articles: we like redlinks to show us where we don't actually have articles, yet. Uncle G (talk) 17:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Extremely strong Keep Every individual sonnet by shakespeare has a substantial individual literature that can be added. I'm glad someone is beginning to fill them in, but i regret they didn't think to go a little further. But already the article is not an empty link, nor does it contain just the text of the sonnet. The poetical structure of the sonnet is discussed, and its further use in literature. already an acceptable stub. Granted, this additional material was not yet there when the article was afd'd. DGG (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - I've added some content to the article, and there's a lot more where it came from. It's one of his dirtier poems, so naturally people have a lot to say about it nowadays. Anyway, I hope this simplifies things. Wrad (talk) 18:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Extremely notable topic. Now has content & references. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Tony G. MBisanz 05:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Pokernews.com (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

One of many gambling news web sites. It's not a totally trivial entity but it fails WP:N since mentions of it in reliable sources are in passing or press releases, not the focus of coverage. Additionally the website is covered under the Tony G article, the person who owns it. We have hundreds of poker player articles. Most of them have websites. We certainly should not make separate articles for both the players and their websites. 2005 (talk) 11:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep change to Reluctant Delete(see below) This isn't just a Tong G Website, PokerNews is a well known poker media site which provide official updates and chip counts for the World Series of Poker and is the official media partner of the Aussie Millions , is a highly reliable source with first person TV interviews and reports this absolutely shouldn't had gone to AFD but does stand for some clean up and expansion.▪◦▪≡SiREX≡ 12:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • It is an important website and a generally reliable source. However, it fails WEB, and WP:N. The article you link to above merely says it will provide play by play of the WSOP. Three years ago literally fifty websites would have qualified, but more to the point, the article is not about pokernews.com. It simply does not have dedicated coverage in reliable sources where it is the focus of the articles. (One other point, the article is putrid now. It could be improved obviously, but it needs to be noted that the things used as sources now, bluff and pokerworks, are owned by pokernews or their business partner, or are printing a press release. 2005 (talk) 12:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
50 sites were not named by Harrah's nor was direct updates done by another site other then PokerNews on the Worldseriesofpoker.com official website, Their site show they conduct professional interviews with the poker players themselves about as reliable as you can get, the isn't a fly by night poker web sites the reports events 3rd handed, other then Cardplayer it's one of the highly regarded websites that covers a great number of high buy-in tournaments and conducts professionally written interviews and articles about poker.▪◦▪≡SiREX≡ 12:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
As I said, I agree it is a great website. It just doesn't meet the very minimal coverage thresholds of WP:WEB or WP:N. If you can find two MSNBC or similar article focusing on the history, corporate structure and value of Pokernews.com, then great it could have an article, but I've looked and I see nothing like that. 2005 (talk) 12:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I've looked and I haven't found a third party reliable sources that covers the Website itself just mentions of them, but it seem due to the nature of the site and the way other sites relies on the their reports I believe in time the site will meet WP:WEB requirements however due to that Knowledge is not a crystal ball I've change to delete. if events do change I will support the existence of an article on the site, as I see it as one of the most important Poker media sites on the web.▪◦▪≡SiREX≡ 13:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

CleanEquity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)
CleanView (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

These articles describe neologisms that were created last year. They may not have achieved sufficiently notability for inclusion. These articles, and these terms, may exist mainly to promote a managed fund product. The terms may also be subject to intellectual property restrictions on their use. Richard Cavell (talk) 10:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy keep. Since all commenters agree the nomination is misplaced, I'm closing this down. Mgm| 01:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Timothy McGee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Procedural nom, contested merge to List of NCIS characters with an incorrect claim that the merge was not discussed. Article was tagged {{mergeto|List of NCIS characters}} for over 1 month. Per WP:FICT, "individual character articles ... should only be created when the alternatives are not feasible".

Despite being a major character in a notable series, notability is not inherited by the characters. This article does not establish real world notability of the character independent of its series. No reliable third party sources and just made up of unnecessary plot summary and original research.

See Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Caitlin Todd and Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Jenny Shepard for precedent. McWomble (talk) 09:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Close nomination. It might have been tagged, but I can not find any evidence if said merge suggestion was actually discussed. And AFD is not the place to do it. Please go to Knowledge:Requested mergers instead. It's bad form to delete a an article that has a contested merge altogether.- Mgm| 10:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep/close and trout the nom for disrupting wikipedia to make a point. If people are objecting to the merge, then the merge discussion needs to be re-opened. Stop trying to force things. Umbralcorax (talk) 15:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Reject out of hand - Since when is AFD the place to propose a merge? Though FTR, I agree with the merge. Grandmartin11 (talk) 18:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy Close and keep Merger was contested, how does that translate into deleting the article entirely? Merger was discussed but the discussion did not come to a consensus. I believe this nomination qualifies for a speedy close under snowball. Theseeker4 (talk) 19:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Close We have a place for discussing contested merges. Perhaps it might be better if we were to should change our Deletion Policy and discuss them here, but that is not he current practice and should not be unilaterally forced. FWIW, the merges are less likely to be contested if they are genuine merges, with content preserved. DGG (talk) 19:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 04:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Ziva David (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Procedural nom, contested merge to List of NCIS characters with an incorrect claim that the merge was not discussed. Article was tagged {{mergeto|List of NCIS characters}} for over 1 month. Per WP:FICT, "individual character articles ... should only be created when the alternatives are not feasible".

Despite being a major character in a notable series, notability is not inherited by the characters. This article does not establish real world notability of the character independent of its series. No reliable third party sources and just made up of unnecessary plot summary and original research.

See Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Caitlin Todd and Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Jenny Shepard for precedent. McWomble (talk) 09:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Close nomination. It might have been tagged, but I can not find any evidence if said merge suggestion was actually discussed. And AFD is not the place to do it. Please go to Knowledge:Requested mergers instead. It's bad form to delete a an article that has a contested merge altogether.- Mgm| 10:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 04:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Anthony DiNozzo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Procedural nom, contested merge to List of NCIS characters with an incorrect claim that the merge was not discussed. Article was tagged {{mergeto|List of NCIS characters}} for over 1 month. Per WP:FICT, "individual character articles ... should only be created when the alternatives are not feasible".

Despite being a major character in a notable series, notability is not inherited by the characters. This article does not establish real world notability of the character independent of its series. No reliable third party sources and just made up of unnecessary plot summary and original research.

See Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Caitlin Todd and Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Jenny Shepard for precedent. McWomble (talk) 09:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Close nomination. It might have been tagged, but I can not find any evidence if said merge suggestion was actually discussed. And AFD is not the place to do it. Please go to Knowledge:Requested mergers instead. It's bad form to delete a an article that has a contested merge altogether.- Mgm| 10:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep/close and trout the nom for disrupting wikipedia to make a point. If people are objecting to the merge, then the merge discussion needs to be re-opened. Stop trying to force things. Umbralcorax (talk) 15:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I think there is a misunderstanding of what has been contested. Looking at the page history, it seems Anthony DiNozzo was redirected to List of NCIS characters after a month of discussion but this redirect was reverted, indeed with an incorrect claim that there was no discussion (which obviously isn't true). Since the article is indeed made up entirely of plot summary and original research, this AfD should be allowed to run. And I say delete as there si no content worth merging that isn't already in List of NCIS characters. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 03:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong delete because I am sick of seeing the same bits of plot and OR added back to any character articles after it has been removed, just becuse some fan thinks its useful! 203.30.75.12 (talk) 07:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Since the merge already occured, we need to retain the redirect/page history for this page for proper attribution per GFDL. - Mgm| 10:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Redirect to allow interested editors to cull the page history and to keep it around as a legitimate search term, otherwise weak delete per nom. It's always unfortunate when AfD has to be employed for objective outsider opinion in cases where a merger/redirect is the best action as long as no-one establishes notability. – sgeureka 10:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Close nomination. Single-paragraph descriptions in a merged document do not adequately educate someone searching on the backstory relationships between the characters, especially as the show is into its 6th season. The character page is long because it shares a timeline of relationships and character growth, not simply a rehashing of the plot. 19:09, 4 December 2008
  • Comment. The backstory and relationships are entirely in-universe, primary sourced or original research. Real world notability of the character has not been established by reliable secondary sources. McWomble (talk) 06:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy Delete per G12 by MacGyverMagic. (non-admin closure) MrKIA11 (talk) 13:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

List of terrorist Incidents in Israel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article claims to be a "List of terrorist incidents in Israel". It is in fact a direct copy of the only source cited, a list which appears without references on a blog. There are no inline references for any of the hundreds of incidents listed, and no reliable way of verifying them.

A large proportion of the incidents listed did not actually take place in Israel, but in the 1967-occupied territories.

Although the article starts "All of the below terrorist attacks are against innocent civilians", a large proportion of the victims are actually members of the armed forces.

Much of what is verifiable in the list is already included in one of the several other similar articles; anything missing could easily be added to one of them. RolandR (talk) 09:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy keep. and reject nomination. AFD is not the correct venue to discuss mergers. Mgm| 00:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Leroy Jethro Gibbs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Procedural nom, contested merge to List of NCIS characters with an incorrect claim that the merge was not discussed. Article was tagged {{mergeto|List of NCIS characters}} for over 1 month. Per WP:FICT, "individual character articles ... should only be created when the alternatives are not feasible".

Despite being a major character in a notable series, notability is not inherited by the characters. This article does not establish real world notability of the character independent of its series. No reliable third party sources and just made up of unnecessary plot summary and original research.

See Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Caitlin Todd and Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Jenny Shepard for precedent.

McWomble (talk) 09:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep. The MAIN character of the show and the article has references that are not the show itself. (By the way, article being tagged, doesn't mean it was discussed). - Mgm| 10:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. Being the main character of a show does not establish real world notability. The article does not even remotely discuss a work of fiction from a real-world perspective, discussing its reception, impact and significance. Per WP:FICT, "individual character articles ... should only be created when the alternatives are not feasible". McWomble (talk) 10:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Then it should be merged. There's no reason to bring a contested merge to AFD, when there's Knowledge:Requested mergers to discuss the validity of the merge. (See the related discussions nominated today) - Mgm| 11:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. I've repeatedly removed un-sourced material from this article, but it keeps reappearing. The material here is not viable, since it is POV, in-universe, a simple plot summary, and unreferenced; therefore, there's no sense in merging it. WP:FICT per the original nomination. -- Mikeblas (talk) 15:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep/close and trout the nom for disrupting wikipedia to make a point. If people are objecting to the merge, then the merge discussion needs to be re-opened. Stop trying to force things. Umbralcorax (talk) 15:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Reject out of hand - Same as the mcgee one. AFD is not for requesting merges. Grandmartin11 (talk) 18:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Close We have a place for discussing contested merges--it's not WP:RM, by the way, which is just for notifying about them--the place is the talk page of the proposed article proposed to be merged to. Perhaps it might be better if we were to should change our Deletion Policy and discuss them here, but that is not he current practice and should not be unilaterally forced. Merges are less likely to be contested if they are genuine merges, with content preserved. The material attempted to be removed can be considered sourced by the work itself, as appropriate for fiction. And FWIW, many of us do think that the main character of a notable work is appropriate for a full article, and one of the many exceptions to the GNG. And if we were to delete every article that violates the MOS, would anything but the FA's be left? DGG (talk) 19:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not establish notability through significant coverage of real world context in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject. Jay32183 (talk) 00:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Keith Harris (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article created by subject, no evidence of notability, appears to be vanity article Thedarxide (talk) 09:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Rob Capriccioso (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article is BLP describing relatively unknown person, lacks obvious claims to notability, and provides no reliable sources for the claims it does make. Article includes numerous links to subject's website, otherwise is exclusively original research. Earlier this month I looked for appropriate citations and came up empty. Prod rejected by article creator, asked creator to provide sources, but none have been forthcoming. Recommend delete on grounds of lack of notability and verifiability. --Ten Thousand Bullets (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your desire to delete this entry, the subject has been recognized by members of Congress and his work has been read into the Congressional record, which, according to National Press Club research, is noteworthy and unique. References backing up these facts and others in the article are provided as links within the article. Further, according to the Native American Journalists Association, there are very few Native Americans working in the press today. The subject's inclusion is warranted based on merit and the sheer uniqueness of being a recognized Native journalist who has worked for both mainstream and Native-focused outlets. In short, the subject qualifies under Knowledge:Notability_(people) because: The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them; The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field. Additionally, several journalistic outlets for which the subject has written have run his birthplace and tribal enrollment. Their fact-checking must be considered to fit the conditions of reliable, secondary sources. Dcwash (talk) 17:17, 26 November 2008 (UTC)dcwash
Dcwash is the creator referred to above, and we've discussed some of these things on Dcwash's talk page and on my own. (I also let Dcwash know I was making this recommendation.) Dcwash asserts that these sources exist but has not provided references for them, casting doubt on their existence. Even if these details could be confirmed, the subject still has not been the subject of any independent studies or news coverage, and both are reasons for my eventual nomination for deletion. Ten Thousand Bullets (talk) 17:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete – Sorry, just not there yet. Was able to find only 6 sources, of the 6, only three are independent of Mr. Capriccioso, and I’m not sure Mr. Caproccoso would want those pieces included, as shown here . Thanks ShoesssS 17:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Do not delete - based on above rationale ("Regarding your desire to delete this entry, the subject has been recognized by members of Congress and his work has been read into the Congressional record , which, according to National Press Club research, is noteworthy and unique. References backing up these facts and others in the article are provided as links within the article. Further, according to the Native American Journalists Association, there are very few Native Americans working in the press today. The subject's inclusion is warranted based on merit and the sheer uniqueness of being a recognized Native journalist who has worked for both mainstream and Native-focused outlets. In short, the subject qualifies under Knowledge:Notability_(people) because: The person has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them; The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field. Additionally, several journalistic outlets for which the subject has written have run his birthplace and tribal enrollment. Their fact-checking must be considered to fit the conditions of reliable, secondary sources.") More sources here, including an interview with Bolivian President Evo Morales. Dcwash (talk) 19:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)dcwash
  • Comment - Hello Dcwash, I reviewed links – additional sources and did some supplementary research and still believe Mr. Capriccioso falls short of inclusion at this time. Addressing your major contentions, the first being that members of Congress have recognized Mr. Capriccioso and his work has been read into the Congressional record, is somewhat misleading. An article that Mr. Capriccioso wrote was cited, one sentence, by Mr. Stacy Dixon in testimony BEFORE THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS and Mr. Capriccioso was addressed in a footnote as the author. Regarding his writings for the New York Post, I cannot seem to locate them in any of my searches. In fact, the only independent – verifiable – creditable sources I was able to find are the three I addressed in my earlier opinion. Hope this helps explain my reasoning. Good luck to you and Happy Thanksgiving. ShoesssS 20:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SoWhy 08:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I don't see these being significant enough reliable sources to make him notable; and I can't imagine how he could be the recipient of a notable award etc. Moreover, consider that being in the Congressional Record isn't enough: if a senator is filibustering, he could read the telephone book, thus putting potentially thousands of people into the Congressional Record, but it wouldn't make them notable. Nyttend (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Do not delete - Awards from minority journalists associations are notable. And re: Nyttend's criticism, it was not a name from a phone book read into the Congressional record, but the work of the journalist, as I have reviewed the situation. I have not seen that from many other journalists, minority or not. Torrenceg (talk) 20:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)torrenceg
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The result was Speedy Delete under criteria a1. Marasmusine (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Left 5 Dead (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article appears to be a hoax, or wishful thinking. There is no such announcement by Valve. The product does not exist and Valve would have only just started it if it is being produced now, meaning that any information on this product would be pure speculation. Richard Cavell (talk) 08:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 03:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Impaled Northern Moonforest demo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Fails WP:MUSIC and WP:N. No sources at all. Nothing notable about this work. Delete Undead Warrior (talk) 07:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Griffith University. MBisanz 04:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

IIIS (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

fails WP:ORG. almost no third party coverage Google news search. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 04:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Prime Minister of the United States (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article's opening sentence puts it well: "There is no Prime Minister of the United States." The article is a collection of witticisms which use the expression, not a discussion of the (non-existent) topic. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep - the article is sourced, and I believe that the term is notable enough for inclusion. The fact that the term is used pejoratively or sarcastically doesn't change whether we should have an article on it. - Richard Cavell (talk) 06:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
None of the sources seem to be about the expression, they just use it in various ways. (p.s. Reading the first AfD discussion gave me a real sense of WP history :-) )Steve Dufour (talk) 07:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. The mere fact that some editorials and commentators have compared the VP or speaker position to that of a prime minister does not mean that the term is in wide or notable use. The uses of the term cited in the article all look trivial. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep pending updating of the article to meet current WP sourcing standards. That previous AFD is really old (for Wiki) and the article is clearly formatted in an earlier style. I have no prejudice against renominating if efforts to bring the article up to current standards are not successful, but right now it looks viable and has a number of sources, so I'm hesitant to support AFD right now. Let's see if it can be rescued first, and bring it back here in a few months if it isn't or can't be. 23skidoo (talk) 14:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - article has some structure and content, example has hundreds of google hits. There are far more unnotable topics around at WP--Pgallert (talk) 14:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Ah, another article left over from Knowledge's younger days when it would take just about any contribution. After nearly six years, most of this remains original research. A few sources are given to show that, at one time or another, some political commentator has jokingly labelled someone as being kinda like America's "prime minister" -- the Chief of Staff, the Speaker of the House, the House Majority Leader, the Secretary of State, etc. The rest of it is observations like "Today, the term is applied by people unfamiliar with the American presidential system of government, who presume that the chief executive official (the President of the United States) is instead called the prime minister (e.g. "Prime Minister Obama")." That's why teachers use a red pen when they're grading papers. Note that President of Canada redirects to the article Prime Minister of Canada. While perhaps an intelligent article can be written about the subject, I haven't seen it so far. Mandsford (talk) 14:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Don't want to support or to oppose deletion, but I thought it would be appropriate to observe that its deletion has been discussed before: aside from the first discussion, which was five years ago, the talk page contains a significant discussion about deletion. Nyttend (talk) 14:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete An article "having some structure and content" does not mean it should stay, nor does the "hundreds of google hits" mean it is notable. The fact that it is an article that has been around for the better part of a decade also doesn't mean it should remain. The fact is the term is for a position that doesn't exist. At best the title should redirect to the President of the United States article. The term has been used, but that doesn't mean it should have an article. There is not enough coverage of the term to make it a notable phrase that deserves an article in Knowledge. There is significant usage of the term, but there is no notability as per Knowledge standards. Theseeker4 (talk) 16:07, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, with proviso. The best two options here are keep as is, and redirect to President of the United States, since it would be doubtful that there would be anywhere the information here could be satisfactorily merged. Redirection would lose a considerable amount of information on the nearest equivalents to PM in US politics. If more robust sourcing can be found for those comparisons, then this is surely a keeper. If it can't be found, however, then these sections must be considered as OR and the article's future seems far shakier. Grutness...wha? 00:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Trivial expression does not warrant its own article. I see no independent notability.2008Olympian 08:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. -- Raven1977 (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong delete Non-notable with no reliable sources. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Most countries in the world have a prime minister, so the thought that the USA must have one is surely not uncommon. The material is interesting and worth keeping, and it really doesn't go anywhere else. Kestenbaum (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete and salt It is verifiable that the position doesn't exist. RayAYang (talk) 01:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
    • That's not a valid reason for deletion - we have plenty of articles for things that verifiably don't exist. Grutness...wha? 04:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
      • I'll rephrase: the subject of this page is nonsense. It is a non-notable, commonly made mistake that is the product of ignorance of countries not one's own, and has no currency as anything other than a mistake. It would be like having an article on the "President of Great Britain," the "Lord Protector of Japan," the "Sultan of China," etc, etc. Ray (talk) 05:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - Office obviously doesn't exist but term is notable. Snappy (talk) 12:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete. Mgm| 10:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Bravehostradio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I believe that this article is about an Internet radio station. It may not be notable enough for inclusion. It is probably also self-promotion (consider the username of the original author). The article contains a stream of consciousness that is difficult for me to place in context. Richard Cavell (talk) 06:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Civil_Engineering_and_Development_Department_(Hong_Kong). MBisanz 04:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hong Kong's government policy on the greening of slopes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

this is a rather insignificant policy, among thousands issued by the government. No third party sources to attest to its notability. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Per WP:HEY (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Dagdusheth Halwai Ganpati of pune (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Repeat of page Ganesha replete with WP:MOS problems (page creator SIGNED article) and no sources. ←Spidern→ 05:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to List of Ultimate Muscle characters. MBisanz 04:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Forkolossus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Does not establish notability through significant coverage of real world context in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject Jay32183 (talk) 05:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete - Dravecky (talk) 05:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete by Fuhghettaboutit. Lenticel 05:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Epic Reverse Dump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This may not be notable enough for inclusion. It is not sourced, and the information here cannot be verified. The term receives no Google-hits. It may be something made up one day, or may simply be vandalism. Richard Cavell (talk) 04:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Rose D'Angelo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unremarkable fictional person John Collier (talk) 04:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

AfDs for this article:
Ronnie Radke (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I have nominated this page because the subject fails notability, and it lacks a single source. Thank you. Yachtsman1 (talk) 04:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

How is he not notable?, he was the lead singer for a popular band, Fair enough there arent many sources but I still think the page can be worked out without need for deletion --Casket56 (talk) 04:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
How is he notable, Casket? Notability must be established, and the easiest way is by sources. This article has none of these, and as it stands it fails on notability. It also has the appearance of a fan site, which is inappropriate on Knowledge as failing to provide a neutral point of view.Yachtsman1 (talk) 04:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Yachtsman1, I understand that this page is looking pretty dull, and also, he hasn't worked with any other bands and has no plan of in the future due to his jail thing, He is a notable musician, but only because he is a former vocalist, other than that he is not notable for anything else, So I get what you mean when you find the article is not necessary, I approve of the deletion, thanks for clearing things up for me --Casket56 (talk) 11:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Go ahead and nominate them--I'm with you. Drmies (talk) 05:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm gonna have to admit I wouldn't have the first clue how too.  Esradekan Gibb  12:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Boats! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This band fails WP:MUSIC. It has yet to release an album as seen in the discography section. A Google News Archive search returns no results and a Google search returns only results from Myspace and some forums. This band's record label (No Front Teeth Records) is a red link. There is very little of assertion of notability. The speedy was declined because this band had toured nationally and played with notable bands; however, notability is not inherited. Cunard (talk) 04:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. John254 00:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Unique Device Identification (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Is this really important/notable? No sources, maybe merge into FDA article? David (contribs) 19:59, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete (see below). Possibly speedy under WP:CSD#A1. What country's law is this about? What sort of device is it about? I haven't got a clue from reading the article. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
    I would bet that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) mentioned is the American one. Although I suppose most countries should have a similar government body, I don't know of any that use the same name and abbreviation. --Itub (talk) 13:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Note--the author is following this: sources have been provided to establish that this is indeed the FDA in the US, and that the concept exists. I would dare to guess, from looking at a couple of those FDA links, that this is notable, though you could never tell from the article, which is barely English. A quick Google search reveals no newspaper coverage, though there is lots of coverage from inside the medical and nutritional profession. I think this might be a keeper--though every single clause in the article needs to be rewritten to conform to the rules of English grammar. Drmies (talk) 05:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Perhaps we should userfy this... - Mgm| 09:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree. I think the author is on to something; let's keep it so some more work can be done. Drmies (talk) 15:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Surprisingly, this is actually pretty interesting. Or so it seems. :) The FDA is insisting that medical devices (noting that devices covers virtually everything that isn't pharmaceutical - bandages, beds, etc) have a unique ID, which is consistent in spite of product names or model numbers. It will standardize ordering, make recalls more effective, and improve tracking of adverse effects. There are a few good sources which should be enough to clean it up a bit, if I or another editor can grab the time. - Bilby (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I've added a bit to the article, including some refs which should establish notability. I can't do much at the moment, but I'll try to come back to it later if it survives AfD with the changes. - Bilby (talk) 17:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Bilby, you have done excellent work. Bravo. Drmies (talk) 00:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Dave Days (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable Youtube contributor, no reliable sources. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 22:07, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Note - I could not find any sources that I could consider reliable. The only thing I know for sure of is that he was on MSNBC for his "I Got a Crush on Hilary" song. I couldn't find that on msnbc.com, only on his youtube channel. Branson03 (talk) 01:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton 03:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete--so, no reliable sources, no relevance, nothing but YouTube. Delete now, maybe he'll return as another 'internet personality.' You can never have enough of those. Drmies (talk) 05:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Contact me or another admin for userfication. Black Kite 23:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Jacob Bogaart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Declined A7 nominee because it makes an assertion of notability. However, I believe it still fails WP:MUSIC, and based on the edit history, we have a severe conflict of interest in this article's authorship. SchuminWeb (Talk) 21:40, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Mgm| 09:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Soffocare (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This article appears to be out of context. It is not known whether the article intends to describe a concept from a work of fiction such as a novel or computer game, or a concept from a belief system such as Wicca. The article is, at any rate, unsourced and not able to be verified. (The word is the Italian verb for 'to suffocate', but I cannot verify that a notable spell exists by this name). Richard Cavell (talk) 05:12, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

E-Politics21 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The notability of this orphaned article has not been demonstrated by reliable sources Ohconfucius (talk) 03:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete (hoax). ... discospinster talk 01:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The Girl That I Used To Be (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Yet another fake Aliana Lohan single. This seems to be a cottage industry on Knowledge. —Kww(talk) 03:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Moss culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This appears to be a how-to guide for culturing moss for agricultural purposes. The article is poorly written and, in my view, unsalvageable. Richard Cavell (talk) 04:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Time To Think (band) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This band may not be notable enough for inclusion on Knowledge. The band has never played live, and has produced three albums. One of the songs was, accordingly to the article, 'surprisingly' once played on BBC Radio. Richard Cavell (talk) 02:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The band has been, however, linked within Knowledge stemming from very notable bands The Apostles and Academy 23. The lack of gigs was a choice at the outset and coincided with the underground, DIY punk ethic nature of the band within the punk movement at the time. As noted, they had releases spread far and wide which is notable within the confines of the scene at the time. The surprise of the radio play is notable in that the band remained loyal to the underground scene, but someone outside that scene (at the BBC no less) had considered them notable for airplay. The band were also the reason for the synthesis of Thinking Time Records which also released records for notable groups including Academy 23. Pw3uk (talk) 02:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added a couple of wiki links to hopefully contextualise my comments (esp. the DIY ethic). Maybe I am doing the band a disservice with certain parts of my entry, but, again, considering the context of the music scene within which the band was a part, I thought they were necessary to include. Comments more than welcome! Pw3uk (talk) 03:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to WP:MUSIC. It passes on the criterion of a notable member, Andy Martin of The Apostles. Both members of the band were members of Academy 23, a band of notability. The links to notability would be strengthened via the Thinking Time Records and (moreso) Unit wiki-links, were they existing. The lack of these pages existing again does not necessitate non-notability. However, should the inclusion of this band page fail, may I instead suggest a redirect to Academy 23. Pw3uk (talk) 19:47, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Xymmax So let it be done 15:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Voice chasing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Dicdef, no hope of expansion. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 23:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The New Yorker Deal (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is a strategy - it belongs somewhere which discusses Monopoly strategy - possibly even a wikibook, but certainly not on the pedia. This definition of fancruft should be deleted, but debate is welcome. Scapler (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete Not encyclopedic and unsources. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. Isn't this nomination faulty? I thought that articles were only supposed to be in one deletion process at a time...
    Comment It just so happens that the other editor and I nominated the page for deletion (under different processes) at pretty much the exact same time. Truthfully, the double nomination occurred under complete coincidence. Scapler (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Quite encyclopedic (as part of an article on Monopoly strategy wherever that was located; I know we have it), but totally unverifiable, not even the external links mention it. - Mgm| 09:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Out of the frying pan into the fire (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Combination of WP:DICDEF and a list of trivia. Fails WP:NOT. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 03:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Government of Queensland. Based on Nick-D's evidence, it is clearly not a hoax (http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/Department/) Mgm| 09:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Department of Tourism, Fair Trading and Wine Industry Development (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

actually a hoax, does not exist as a Queensland Government dept http://www.dtrdi.qld.gov.au/dsdweb/v4/apps/web/content.cfm?id=1581 http://www.qld.gov.au/government/departments/. Michellecrisp (talk) 02:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Retire21 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The subject of this article could be two things. It could be about a webpage, retire21.org, as the title clearly indicates. It could also be about the proposal to retire the jersey #21 in MLB in honor of Roberto Clemente. If the article is about the former, I believe it clearly fails WP:WEB, and I would have speedy deleted it under WP:CSD A7. However, because there are 2 newspaper articles cited (NY Sun and NY Times) which discuss the topic of retiring the jersey (but DO NOT mention the website retire21), it isn't entirely clear to me what to do with this article, so I am seeking additional input. I do not believe there is enough reason to create a spin out article on this topic independent from the main Roberto Clemente article, and would favor outright deleting. Renaming and refocusing could be another option. But I want to know what you think. Andrew c  01:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete--Andrew, I agree with you. The Clemente article has plenty, the two articles have nothing on the website. Moreover, the NYT article does not support the claim made in the article, and the author (it's an opinion piece) does not even agree that the number should be retired. It seems to me like this is a promo-piece meant to let the website ride piggy-back on the reputation of Clemente and the very selective reading of two newspaper articles. So, in the end, once you start pruning out of the article what's not relevant (the Clemente section, which is covered elsewhere) or what's not verified, what you have left is an article that says, there's this website and this is what they propose. Delete. Drmies (talk) 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect insufficient independent notability for website name. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 06:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. No independant reliable sources to establish notability. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - The Roberto Clemente article already mentions in a paragraph the movement to retire the jersey without specifically mentioning anything like this website, so that's sufficient. However, redirecting "Retire21" or "Retire 21 in baseball" or some such wording to the Roberto Clemente article isn't out of the question. Experimental Hobo Infiltration Droid (talk) 00:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Masters of Destruction (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This is about a Hmong street gang in the United States. The article says it has an estimated membership of 100-500. It was discussed here two years ago and survived with no consensus. The article remains a bare stub. We don't seem to have notability standards for street gangs. However the usual standards for organizations can apply, which this gang does not appear to meet. While it has been mentioned in police reports and a book on the Hmong in America, it does not appear to have been subject of a profile, or other evidence of encyclopedic notability. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:38, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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  • Delete. I agree with nominator and JB; there seems to be no coverage, not enough for an article anyway. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete- no coverage beyond the odd passing mention here and there. This is not enough to justify an article. Reyk YO! 04:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete, without prejudice. Reliable sources are especially needful in articles about street gangs, because the subject attracts both fear-mongering and swagger. A passing mention among a list of gangs in a single book may constitute a reliable source for the gang's existence. But with just that, it's never going to say anything more than "there's a gang with this name, and its members are Hmongs." - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. MBisanz 04:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Precisely Right (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Vanity page promoting a non-notable group of skaters that doesn't meet WP:ATHLETE. They've never competed at the "highest level" in the sport of synchronized skating -- they don't have a senior-level team that competes nationally, and have never represented their country in international competition. Dr.frog (talk) 04:43, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus at Knowledge:WikiProject Figure Skating/Notability is that being a sectional champion, particularly at a level below senior, is not sufficient evidence of notability by itself in any other discipline of figure skating for which US Figure Skating holds sanctioned competitions. Why should synchro be different? Dr.frog (talk) 23:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
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  • Keep they are three time sectional championship winners, have been represented at U.S. Nationals, and they are the home team for the 2009 Eastern Secional tournament. They have been featured in Synchronized skating magazine as well, it is in the list of sources. Captain Gamma (talk) 21:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment From the article, they have won sectionals on the preliminary, pre-juvenile, and open juvenile levels. That's nowhere near senior level, and they haven't competed senior at nationals, and so they haven't competed on the highest level of the sport in the United States. Notable synchro teams are teams like the Miami University Synchronized Skating Team, which are senior-level national champions and World medalists. Kolindigo (talk) 05:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment The US Figure Skating web site clearly labels "preliminary, pre-juvenile, and open juvenile" as "developmental levels" rather than "competitive levels". See this link. Also, this PDF document describes these levels using terms like "encourage beginning skaters to learn the fundamentals of synchronized skating" and "allow most clubs to form a team and introduce synchronized skating to their club". By contrast, elite US synchro teams that might be considered to have some current claim to notability are listed here. Dr.frog (talk) 04:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Xi Alpha Pi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This single-chapter fraternity was founded in Sept 2008. Article claims it is first Asian frat in Canada, but I'm pretty sure that's not true, nor is the claim sourced. Non-notable anyway. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 06:10, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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  • Delete their existance is questionable because only one source used. Include other sources than just the official webiste. Captain Gamma (talk) 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - Well written (probably the reason why it was speedy declined) but questionable self referenced content. Perhaps the author can dig up references to source facts and prove notability, if not, delete as it does not meet WP:RS and WP:N policy. - DustyRain (talk) 06:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Agree with comment by DustyRain. Looking at the article & their website, it seems it isn't recognized by the university; it only exists at that single university and its first ever meeting was only about a month ago (in October). Whitehorse1 22:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. –Juliancolton 02:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Via Prudensiae (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

I doubt that this role-playing game passes the notability guideline. All sources given are primary (the book itself and the author's website). The article itself says that only few copies were printed and that the book is not very widespread. The article is largely a plot summary. B. Wolterding (talk) 14:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree it's hard to fullfill the notability demands. The reason for this is that not much is written about the system -- the system is known in Danish role playing society by mouth-to-mouth. I admit it's quite a niche, since it's an alternative system, primarily known in Denmark (which is a small country). I disagree the article is largely a plot summary; it's a description of how the system works. No plot summaries are mentioned. Spiderboy (talk) 12:13, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
As to plot summaries, what I wanted to say is that the article mainly summarizes the contents of the book. You may call that a plot summary or game guide, in any case it's not what an encyclopedia article should contain. Rather, the article should summarize what others (i.e., independent reliable sources) write about the book. If these sources don't exist, that is a good indication that the topic is not suited for an encyclopedia. --B. Wolterding (talk) 15:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this book does not meet the notability demands, and that it should probably be deleted as a consequence. No protests from me. 83.91.25.155 —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC).
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The result was keep. MBisanz 04:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

ModeFRONTIER (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Software article with no indication of notability, no references. Sorry for the waste of time but someone removed the PROD template when adding a link to a case study on the software creator's own website, doing nothing to alleviate the outstanding issue. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:57, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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  • Keep Needs clean-up and technical dumb-down as this is a great sleep-aid presently. It would be nice to beef up the lede to state it's widely used and by whom but over a dozen book hits leads me to think it's notable enough and nearly 200 scholar hits suggest there is enough independent sourcing available. -- Banjeboi 14:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Alphabiotics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Non-notable (see google news and google scholar). Only 4 sources, all of which are primary, none of which are reliable. Tagged for COI editing since August 2008. Is not written from a neutral point of view. Includes content which can be considered a violation of WP:BLP. ←Spidern→ 16:10, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete. This page is particularly enlightening. Also, based on the official site, it appears that there's still not much more practioners then when said publication made a count of 75 practioners in 2002. In short: this is a fringe theory without wide traction and there don't appear to be enough reliable sources to write a balanced article on the topic. - Mgm| 22:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

--Trisfb (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)(this section added by the article's author in response to the above text)- I went about editing it originally because the initial wikipedia definition was totally inaccurate. The attempt was to create a definition for something which is based on a non-linear paradigm and eludes simple definition. If you want to delete the entire entry feel free - just don't publish inaccuracies please. I'd say the article is neutral unless you can site an example of where non-neutrality was used? The Chirobase link is inaccurate is it refers to a person not certified to perform Alphabiotics. I'm sure you wouldn't link an article under medicine about someone who wasn't a qualified doctor? Please can you qualify what you mean by fringe? And also that which is referred to 'content violation' I am very happy to oblige in editing this article for improvement.

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--Trisfb (talk) 14:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)Regarding the Biography of a living person conflict can you please be specific as I know the 'living person' and can seek his approval on any content. I'm not sure if stress reduction is fringe theory? Can you please be specific with your reference to 'fringe' so the article may be improved or clarified. Notability is difficult for this subject matter, and if suggestions can be made I am open to them? Thank you.

  • Delete, per nomination. Half of the article is a totally unsourced WP:BLP, which should even qualify for speedy deletion. The other half is a description of, wait a moment, unifying body and soul by lying down for 15-30 seconds while having your head twisted by 10 degrees... unfortunately my English is not good enough to provide for an applicable polite word.--Pgallert (talk) 15:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

--Trisfb (talk) 17:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)Which half of the article are you refering to please? (That is unsourced) I need specifics please to modify the article. There is no mention of 'unifying body and soul' so I am confused as to your source for that comment. Can you please re-read the article carefully as the terms I have used are very specific. Also there is no mention of twisting the head. In fact the article says "the lack of twisting". Many thanks.

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Félag íslenskra þjóðernissinna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

The article about this - apparently controversial - organization has been unsourced since more than a year. Apart from WP:V issues, this raises concerns regarding notability, all the more because the article says that the group is small, inactive, and never had much influence. The talk page also suggests that sources are difficult to find, if they exist at all. B. Wolterding (talk) 16:23, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. –Juliancolton 02:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Troiaresort (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A fine specimen of Crystalballis Vanispamcruftisementus. Húsönd 21:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Neneh Cherry. MBisanz 04:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Nena Cherry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

No significant reliable sources found, and doesn't pass the criteria at WP:PORNBIO. I've removed some content for WP:BLP reasons. Epbr123 (talk) 21:19, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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  • Conditional keep If and only if proof of 23skidoo's claims are provided, then this person should meet WP:BIO generally. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 01:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - She was part of the HIV scare in 1997 but Luke Ford observed what I long suspected: Media ignored the scare in 1997 compared to 2004. Luke Ford himself is no reliable source to establish notability considering he charges her with being a prostitute now. Only another brief mention in Pornstar with John Stagliano stating that she tested positive for HIV before he did. This is probably also grounds for a deletion based on a BLP1E. Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: Not BLP1E because Cherry has gone on record herself as discussing this; unfortunately what are considered reliable sources within the porn industry don't necessarily get the same recognition at Wiki. Luke Ford is controversial, but one of the reasons why he's controversial is he isn't an industry mouthpiece, which actually makes him more of a reliable source than some others; his only problem is he's a blog and Wiki still has its head back in the 1990s when it comes to blogs being "unreliable sources". That's going to have to change now that we've had media such as CNN acknowledge that blogs, Twitter, and other "unreliable" sources came of age as source of record during the Mumbai attacks. Of course we need to follow BLP on any article, but the fact is for porn stars we need to expand our criteria beyond front-page stories in the New York Times and Forbes for these people. And as Ford observes, the 97 scare was ignored by the mainstream media -- that does not render it non-notable. 23skidoo (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
      • his only problem is he's a blog and Wiki still has its head back in the 1990s when it comes to blogs being "unreliable sources". That's not definitely true. From what you say, he's clearly an established expert on the subject. Has anything he's written been published by third party publishers? If so, his blog may be considered a reliable source. JulesH (talk) 20:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
        • Just a note that Luke Ford does not have a reputation for fact-checking and veracity as a porn gossipist and he has written that he has been sued for libel several times. He is definitely not considered an established expert on the industry he covers. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
      • never mind; I just looked at his article. As author of a professionally published book on the industry, I'd say that according to the criteria at WP:V his blog is an acceptable source. JulesH (talk) 20:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment That's odd. I found a economics paper mentioning her case here . It cites a bunch of AVN articles none of which are showing up on their database right now. It may be possible to wayback the works referenced and document it that way. I'm just not sure if that would be enough. nothing on gnews, and only 2 passing references to her currently showing up on avn.Horrorshowj (talk) 05:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - Just because an article isn't online doesn't disqualify it as a source. Depends, of course, upon the context in which it's being cited in the paper. 23skidoo (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment: AVN has redone their database system at least twice that I know of, and neither time when they rolled out the change did they put in place any method to map old links to the new ones. The first time they redid it I wrote to them pointing out how their change broke our reference links to their site and they did belatedly put something, which seemed to work about maybe a third of the time. The second redo broke things even worse in that a number of articles simply seemed to disappear altogether from the site. I find the easiest way to find a specific article on AVN is to first plug the original URL into the Wayback Machine to get the full text of the article, then you can try and find the article on AVN since you can now search for specific terms. Tabercil (talk) 03:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete without prejudice to creating a new article about this subject with facts establishing notability from reliable sources. Right now there are, ummm, zero. I counted. Luke Ford is a helluva funny guy who does good stuff, but his blogs are no more kosher as WP:RSs than bacon-wrapped shrimp is kosher for Passover because it has no leavened bread. A Reliable Source is noted for its careful fact-checking and editorial quality control. Luke is the paradigmatic opposite. Read him. You'll laugh; you'll cry. He's a blessing and he's a stitch. But none of his blogs (and which ones does he even have a connection to any more?) is a Reliable Source for Knowledge. David in DC (talk) 20:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Czech Dream Team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Pornography term with no reliable sourcing. Epbr123 (talk) 22:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 04:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Psycheclone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Written as opinion or original research. Cites McColo (bwuhahahaha!) as a source, which sounds like a problem to me. All cited sources are blogs or bare lists. Guy (Help!) 22:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Grayson miller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

A minor official in the White House Travel Office, no indication of notability per WP:BIO, borderline CSD A7 candidate. Created by User:DGraysonMUNC so may be a WP:AUTO case. Nsk92 (talk) 22:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Brockmanism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

This political ideology is not notable, there are about 198 google hits and none of the top hits are about a political ideology. This appears to be something made up one day. A new name 2008 (talk) 01:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was keep. John254 00:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Chris Yarran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Crystal ball article that fails WP:Athlete - article may be worthy of inclusion after subject has commenced playing in the national league. --VS 01:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete per WP:CSD#G11 by Thingg. (non admin closure)—/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 02:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The Grubby Cats Tour Dates (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

List of tour dates for redlinked band. Possible hoax -- no ghits for band. Prod contested without edit summary by article creator. Fabrictramp | talk to me 01:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

James M. Roe (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Unsourced BLP. No sources to support notability. No reliable sources in ghits. -- Mufka 00:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete. WP:CSD#A7, I'm also salting this against further recreation. I'll recommend the user to ask for a mentor. Mgm| 00:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Yung D (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Re-created lots of times, but never indicates compliance with WP:MUSIC. Even if the artist has been signed to a major label, there aren't any albums yet. Acroterion (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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The result was delete. MBisanz 02:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Tom Hopper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View AfD)

Was prodded, editor removed prod. Notability is asserted but, non notable actor fails Knowledge:Notability (people). login site 5 credits non starring no mention, not much on google— Ѕandahl ♥ 03:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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